From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 07:45:00 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 03:45:00 -0400 Subject: After Discovery, State Quietly Moves to Purge N-word From Official Documents In-Reply-To: <201107310331.p6UAl6xU014650@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > What's your point? > In journals, I've been _allowed_ to use "Negro" if it's an historical usage, in quotes; but not otherwise. "Allowed"?!!! Are you fucking kidding me?!!! -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 11:39:52 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 07:39:52 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n Message-ID: Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into an even smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose. The saying above is often attributed to Winston Churchill. The earliest variant I have located is in Punch magazine in 1892. [PLDG] 1892 January 16, Punch, Confessions of a Duffer, Page 35, Column 1, Punch Publications Ltd., London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=u_kCAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Golf+is+not%22#v=snippet& Almost everybody now knows that Golf is not Hockey. Nobody runs after the ball except young ladies at W-m-n! The object is to put a very small ball into a very tiny and remotely distant hole, with engines singularly ill adapted for the purpose. There are many engines. First there is the Driver, a long club, wherewith the ball is supposed to be propelled from the tee, a little patch of sand. List members have generously helped to decipher terms with missing letters in the past. I think that the term: "W-m-n" probably refers to Wimbledon the location of the oldest tennis tournament in the world which has been played since 1877. Is that plausible? Any idea why letters have been removed? Here is a link to an extended discussion of the quotation on my blog if this topic interests you: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/01/golf-small-hole/ Thanks, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 14:59:08 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:59:08 -0500 Subject: Richard (alias "Long Dick") Chasmore (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201107302132.p6UAuw2r016483@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Richard (alias "Long Dick") Chasmore > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > And, of course, no one at that time would have exposed > an innocent child to a double-entendre that he wouldn't get till he > was in his 30's, needless to say. > > On the other hand, Robert A. Heinlein deliberately named a teenage character in his juvenile novel "The Star Beast" John Thomas. The titular beast, Lummox, is a long-lived dragon who is the pet of John Thomas XI, and was his father's pet and his grandfather's pet before. Lummox is semi-intelligent, and believes that his job is "raising John Thomases". Heinlein's use of the name is to purposefully "get one past" his prudish editor at Scribners, Alice Dalgleish, who would strike anything in a juvenile novel that hinted of sex, violence, etc. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 15:23:40 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:23:40 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201107311959.p6VB17HI010867@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE While Pennington got the distinction between Minie- and miniballs correct, he misspelled "ordnance" as "ordinance". > > For those who might be interested, here is a letter to the editor > (Wall Street Journal, Feb. 18, 1992, p. A21/2) about how the fearsome > Civil War bullet "Minie ball" was misinterpreted as "miniball" > (title): "'Minie" A Fearful Name In Battles of Civil War" > > "Your Jan. 15 page-one article on explosive-ordinance > disposal (EOD) in Kuwait said Charles Hall, the young EOD > man you profiled, spent his youth searching for "miniballs" from > Civil War battlefields. More likely they were "Minie" balls, > named for their inventor, French officer Capt. Claude E. Minie. They had > hollow bases and conical rings and expanded enough when fired to engage the > rifling of the barrel, making the far more accurate rifle (as opposed to a > smoothbore) practical as a military weapon. > > "These were the bullets of choice in the Civil War and far from being > the teeny-weeny projectiles suggested by the article, they were a whopping > 0.58 inches in diameter, a full inch long, slow moving and heavy with a > fearful stopping power that could wrench off an arm or a leg with one shot. > They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about 500 > yards. > SAMUEL PENNINGTON > Waldoboro, Maine." > > Gerald Cohen > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 15:39:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:39:22 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: Message-ID: "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me _unprotectedly_!" Youneverknow, -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 15:54:10 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:54:10 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011523.p71Al9uf024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > While Pennington got the distinction between Minie- and miniballs > correct, he misspelled "ordnance" as "ordinance". > Not to mention that, he - probably as the consequence of a mind-fart - says that the greater the distance that the Minie ball traveled, the more likely it was that the person struck by the ball would suffer a mortal wound: "They were _effective_ to a range of about _250 yards_ and _deadly_ to about _500 yards_." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 15:58:03 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:58:03 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011555.p71Al90L024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE That was inartfully worded, but I took it to mean that a trained marksman could hit what he aimed at to 250 yards, but no matter where it was aimed, the bullet had sufficient kinetic energy to be deadly out to 500 yards. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 10:54 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: > > While Pennington got the distinction between Minie- and miniballs > > correct, he misspelled "ordnance" as "ordinance". > > > > Not to mention that, he - probably as the consequence of a mind-fart - > says that the greater the distance that the Minie ball traveled, the > more likely it was that the person struck by the ball would suffer a > mortal wound: > > "They were _effective_ to a range of about _250 yards_ and _deadly_ to > about _500 yards_." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 16:30:59 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:30:59 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: and elsewhere: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_had_sex_unprotectedly_does_this_mean_you_are_pregnant (if you're curious, the wikianswer is essentially "Maybe") More poetically, someone asks Yahoo! Answers? [weird punctuation!]: Would you rather unprotectedly sail near sirens or into the Bermuda Triangle? while urbandictionary offers this as a definition of "unprotectedly": Sexting with a case on your phone. The case will act as a condom. YMMV. LH On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me > _unprotectedly_!" > > Youneverknow, > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 16:47:31 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:47:31 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011558.p71Al919024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Although it was initially a bit of head-scratcher, my interpretation was the same. Let me put it differently--you wouldn't use it as an assassin's weapon at 500 yards, but it would be fine if you're shooting at an attacking column--it's bound to hit and kill someone. But at 250 yards, you can actually take out officers rather than random targets. VS-) On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > > That was inartfully worded, but I took it to mean that a trained > marksman could hit what he aimed at to 250 yards, but no matter where it > was aimed, the bullet had sufficient kinetic energy to be deadly out to > 500 yards. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 17:38:24 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:38:24 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n In-Reply-To: <201108011140.p71Al9TT024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Golf has been played at Wimbledon Common since 1865, and there were conflicts between the golfers and other park users toward the end of the 19th century, and I can imagine a joke being made about young girls chasing after golf balls in the park. No clue about the "w-m-n" abbreviation, however. DanG On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing > letters W-m-n > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into an even > smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose. > > The saying above is often attributed to Winston Churchill. The > earliest variant I have located is in Punch magazine in 1892. > > [PLDG] 1892 January 16, Punch, Confessions of a Duffer, Page 35, > Column 1, Punch Publications Ltd., London. (Google Books full view) > > http://books.google.com/books?id=u_kCAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Golf+is+not%22#v=snippet& > > Almost everybody now knows that Golf is not Hockey. Nobody runs after > the ball except young ladies at W-m-n! The object is to put a very > small ball into a very tiny and remotely distant hole, with engines > singularly ill adapted for the purpose. There are many engines. First > there is the Driver, a long club, wherewith the ball is supposed to be > propelled from the tee, a little patch of sand. > > > List members have generously helped to decipher terms with missing > letters in the past. I think that the term: "W-m-n" probably refers to > Wimbledon the location of the oldest tennis tournament in the world > which has been played since 1877. Is that plausible? Any idea why > letters have been removed? > > Here is a link to an extended discussion of the quotation on my blog > if this topic interests you: > > http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/01/golf-small-hole/ > > Thanks, Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 1 18:00:34 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:00:34 -0700 Subject: Qisas Message-ID: Ini an AP story by Nasser Karimi in today's Seattle Times, the word "qisas" is defined. The article says: ----- If no agreement is reached, then "qisas," or eye-for-an-eye retribution, is enforced. ----- The word does not appear in the online OED. Wiktionary has the word only as an Azeri translation of "revenge" though Wikipedia has a short article. Although the Wikipedia article has a supposed citation from 2009 from the "Phillie Metro," I can't find (without looking too hard) that publication. It appears this story may be the first mainstream use. The article "Pakistan: Women's Commission Recommends Qisas Law Be Amended" cites a publication date of April 1, 2004. The abstract "Pakistan: new forms of cruel and degrading punishment" is dated March 1, 1991: "This circular deals with the new forms of punishment recently introduced in Pakistan under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. " The source article has the term 34 times. An earlier article "Divine Law or Man-Made Law? Egypt and the Application of the Shari'a" by Rudolph Peters is dated August 1988. Google provides the quote "They have been published in Mashnxat qawartin al-qisas ws-l-diye wa-l-hudud al-shartiyya." The shortened link is http://bit.ly/oE6uAO, though JSTOR access is required to see the article, which I don't have. This seems like a handy word for describing this ancient tradition. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 1 18:21:08 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:21:08 -0700 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: <201108011631.p71GAeQq003659@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > and elsewhere: > > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_had_sex_unprotectedly_does_this_mean_you_are_pregnant > > (if you're curious, the wikianswer is essentially "Maybe") > > More poetically, someone asks Yahoo! Answers? [weird punctuation!]: > Would you rather unprotectedly sail near sirens or into the Bermuda Triangle? > > while urbandictionary offers this as a definition of "unprotectedly": > Sexting with a case on your phone. The case will act as a condom. > > YMMV. OED2, under "unprotected": unproˈtectedly adv. 1823 Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. 14 461 Seeing their friends massacred unprotectedly all round them. > > LH > > On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me >> _unprotectedly_!" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 18:31:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:31:47 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: <2F2F7783-730E-4AE5-871F-E09580E98BB4@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 2:21 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Aug 1, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > >> and elsewhere: >> >> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_had_sex_unprotectedly_does_this_mean_you_are_pregnant >> >> (if you're curious, the wikianswer is essentially "Maybe") >> >> More poetically, someone asks Yahoo! Answers? [weird punctuation!]: >> Would you rather unprotectedly sail near sirens or into the Bermuda Triangle? >> >> while urbandictionary offers this as a definition of "unprotectedly": >> Sexting with a case on your phone. The case will act as a condom. >> >> YMMV. > > OED2, under "unprotected": > > unproˈtectedly adv. > 1823 Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. 14 461 Seeing their friends massacred unprotectedly all round them. But perhaps tending to be used in a more specialized way now, given the earlier euphemistic specialization of "protection". Not semantic narrowing as such (yet). LH >> >> On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me >>> _unprotectedly_!" > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 1 19:34:42 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:34:42 -0700 Subject: Qisas In-Reply-To: <201108011800.p71Anjqr008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Google Books turns up some hits from the nineteenth century. The earliest I see is 1819, "The annals of the college of Fort William" by Thomas Roebuck: "No. 2. An exercise on the Law of Qisas or Retaliation, extracted from the Mooheeti Surukhsee" [A dot under each "s" in "Qisas," a dot under the next-to-last "h" and two under the last "t."] (http://bit.ly/oI9rjZ) Another notable citation is from 1885 in "The cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: commercial, industrial and scientific, products of the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms, useful arts and manufactures" by Edward Balfour: "Qisas, literally retaliation, the lex talionis of Exodus xxi. 24; but Mahomed allowed a money compensation, at the discretion of the next of kin, to the murdered person." (http://bit.ly/pbBbNR) Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:00 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Ini an AP story by Nasser Karimi in today's Seattle Times, the word "qisas" is defined. The article says: > > ----- > If no agreement is reached, then "qisas," or eye-for-an-eye retribution, is enforced. > ----- > > The word does not appear in the online OED. > > Wiktionary has the word only as an Azeri translation of "revenge" though Wikipedia has a short article. > > Although the Wikipedia article has a supposed citation from 2009 from the "Phillie Metro," I can't find (without looking too hard) that publication. It appears this story may be the first mainstream use. > > The article "Pakistan: Women's Commission Recommends Qisas Law Be Amended" cites a publication date of April 1, 2004. > > The abstract "Pakistan: new forms of cruel and degrading punishment" is dated March 1, 1991: "This circular deals with the new forms of punishment recently introduced in Pakistan under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. " The source article has the term 34 times. > > An earlier article "Divine Law or Man-Made Law? Egypt and the Application of the Shari'a" by Rudolph Peters is dated August 1988. Google provides the quote "They have been published in Mashnxat qawartin al-qisas ws-l-diye wa-l-hudud al-shartiyya." The shortened link is http://bit.ly/oE6uAO, though JSTOR access is required to see the article, which I don't have. > > This seems like a handy word for describing this ancient tradition. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 19:38:00 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:38:00 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011647.p71Anjlt008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:47 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > take out officers Certainly an admirable endeavor! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Mon Aug 1 19:39:02 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:39:02 -0700 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet Message-ID: "They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about 500 yards." Maybe I misunderstand, but how would a bullet that was "deadly" at 500 yards not be considered "effective" at that range? Brian Hitchcock Torrance, CA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 19:50:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:50:56 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <005801cc5082$aa953ee0$ffbfbca0$@skechers.com> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > "They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about 500 > yards." > > > > Maybe I misunderstand, but how would a bullet that was "deadly" at 500 > yards not be considered "effective" at that range? > > If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would certainly be deadly, but would it be effective? I think an argument could be made either way. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 19:57:32 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:57:32 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: <201108011831.p71Anjsb008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Laurence Horn quoted: > Seeing their friends massacred unprotectedly all round them. For me, there's something strange about _[being] massacred unprotectedly_. "[NP] massacred their friends _unprotectedly_." "Their friends were massacred _unprotectedly_." It seems very strange to me and I can't get it. Maybe it's a "Bell Curve" thing. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 19:58:38 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:58:38 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011939.p71Al9QF024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Because you can't aim it sufficiently well to guarantee a hit at distances of 500 yards. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Brian Hitchcock > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 2:39 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Brian Hitchcock > Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about > 500 > yards." > > > > Maybe I misunderstand, but how would a bullet that was "deadly" at 500 > yards not be considered "effective" at that range? > > > > Brian Hitchcock > > Torrance, CA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 20:00:09 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:00:09 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] Message-ID: eh -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 20:04:34 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:04:34 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011958.p71JemUv024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Because you can't aim it sufficiently well to guarantee a hit at > distances of 500 yards. Nevertheless, IMO, Brian's question is valid, unless _deadly_ doesn't mean "deadly," in this context. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 20:08:53 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:08:53 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -- > -Wilson > —— There are certain party lines I can well imagine trying to tow. And tow. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 20:33:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:33:48 -0400 Subject: Qisas In-Reply-To: <201108011934.p71Al9PV024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Are we all using Google differently? Mine shows a lot more than just Wiki and GB. http://goo.gl/tTwbD Executions under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance > In accordance with a judge's interpretation of the punishment given as > qisas (equal punishment for the offence committed) a death sentence was to > have been executed in Swabi, North West Frontier Province, in a manner > identical with the offence. http://goo.gl/e7xEO Understanding the Qisas and Diyat laws > > This law dates back to General Zia’s Qisas and Diyat Ordinance of 1980, as > part of a cosmetic process of Islamisation that the said dictator carried > out in Pakistan to legitimise his illegal rule on the touchstone of Islam. > Zia himself had delayed the enforcement of these laws to ensure that > Zulfikar Ali Bhutto would not benefit from them. The full statement (retelling) of the law is given at the latter site. http://goo.gl/d64fO Crime and Punishment (QasAmah, QisAs, HadUd) > > The law also permits qisAs, or retaliation. It is permitted only in cases > where someone has deliberately and unjustly wounded, mutilated, or killed > another, and only if the injured and the guilty hold the same status. As > slaves and unbelievers are inferior in status to Muslims, they are not > entitled to qisAs according to most Muslim faqIhs (jurists). ... QISAS > QisAs literally means “tracking the footsteps of an enemy”; but > technically, in Muslim law, it is retaliatory punishment, an eye for an > eye. It is the lex talionis of the Mosaic law. > A Jew smashed the head of an ansAr girl and she died. Muhammad commanded > that his head be crushed between two stones (4138). But in another case, > which involved the sister of one of the Companions, bloodwite was allowed. > She had broken someone’s teeth. When the case was brought to Muhammad, he > told her that “QisAs [retaliation] was a command prescribed in the Book of > Allah.” She made urgent pleas and was allowed to go free after paying a > money compensation to the victim’s next of kin (4151). VS-) On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Google Books turns up some hits from the nineteenth century. The earliest I > see is 1819, "The annals of the college of Fort William" by Thomas Roebuck: > "No. 2. An exercise on the Law of Qisas or Retaliation, extracted from the > Mooheeti Surukhsee" [A dot under each "s" in "Qisas," a dot under the > next-to-last "h" and two under the last "t."] (http://bit.ly/oI9rjZ) > > Another notable citation is from 1885 in "The cyclopędia of India and of > Eastern and Southern Asia: commercial, industrial and scientific, products > of the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms, useful arts and > manufactures" by Edward Balfour: "Qisas, literally retaliation, the lex > talionis of Exodus xxi. 24; but Mahomed allowed a money compensation, at the > discretion of the next of kin, to the murdered person." ( > http://bit.ly/pbBbNR) > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 1 22:31:36 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:31:36 -0700 Subject: Qisas In-Reply-To: <201108012033.p71Anj3Z008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There are certainly a lot more than that :) BB On Aug 1, 2011, at 1:33 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > Are we all using Google differently? Mine shows a lot more than just Wiki > and GB. > > http://goo.gl/tTwbD > Executions under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance > >> In accordance with a judge's interpretation of the punishment given as >> qisas (equal punishment for the offence committed) a death sentence was t= > o >> have been executed in Swabi, North West Frontier Province, in a manner >> identical with the offence. > > > > http://goo.gl/e7xEO > Understanding the Qisas and Diyat laws >> >> This law dates back to General Zia=E2=80=99s Qisas and Diyat Ordinance of= > 1980, as >> part of a cosmetic process of Islamisation that the said dictator carried >> out in Pakistan to legitimise his illegal rule on the touchstone of Islam= > . >> Zia himself had delayed the enforcement of these laws to ensure that >> Zulfikar Ali Bhutto would not benefit from them. > > > The full statement (retelling) of the law is given at the latter site. > > http://goo.gl/d64fO > Crime and Punishment (QasAmah, QisAs, HadUd) >> >> The law also permits qisAs, or retaliation. It is permitted only in case= > s >> where someone has deliberately and unjustly wounded, mutilated, or killed >> another, and only if the injured and the guilty hold the same status. As >> slaves and unbelievers are inferior in status to Muslims, they are not >> entitled to qisAs according to most Muslim faqIhs (jurists). > > ... > > QISAS >> QisAs literally means =E2=80=9Ctracking the footsteps of an enemy=E2=80= > =9D; but >> technically, in Muslim law, it is retaliatory punishment, an eye for an >> eye. It is the lex talionis of the Mosaic law. >> A Jew smashed the head of an ansAr girl and she died. Muhammad commanded >> that his head be crushed between two stones (4138). But in another case, >> which involved the sister of one of the Companions, bloodwite was allowed= > . >> She had broken someone=E2=80=99s teeth. When the case was brought to Muh= > ammad, he >> told her that =E2=80=9CQisAs [retaliation] was a command prescribed in th= > e Book of >> Allah.=E2=80=9D She made urgent pleas and was allowed to go free after pa= > ying a >> money compensation to the victim=E2=80=99s next of kin (4151). > > > > VS-) > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrot= > e: > >> >> Google Books turns up some hits from the nineteenth century. The earliest= > I >> see is 1819, "The annals of the college of Fort William" by Thomas Roebuc= > k: >> "No. 2. An exercise on the Law of Qisas or Retaliation, extracted from th= > e >> Mooheeti Surukhsee" [A dot under each "s" in "Qisas," a dot under the >> next-to-last "h" and two under the last "t."] (http://bit.ly/oI9rjZ) >> >> Another notable citation is from 1885 in "The cyclop=C4=99dia of India an= > d of >> Eastern and Southern Asia: commercial, industrial and scientific, product= > s >> of the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms, useful arts and >> manufactures" by Edward Balfour: "Qisas, literally retaliation, the lex >> talionis of Exodus xxi. 24; but Mahomed allowed a money compensation, at = > the >> discretion of the next of kin, to the murdered person." ( >> http://bit.ly/pbBbNR) >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 1 23:44:43 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:44:43 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/1/2011 04:00 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >eh The canal-boat line? Joel >-- >-Wilson >----- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >-Mark Twain > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Aug 2 00:14:16 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:14:16 -0500 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: <201108012344.p71Nipdo007912@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: paul johnson The well known Camel Toe line On 8/1/2011 6:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/1/2011 04:00 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> eh > > The canal-boat line? > > Joel > > >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Blunt force trauma It's better to give than to receive. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 00:15:15 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:15:15 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: <201108012345.p71JemhD024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>eh There is a bug/feature in the UGA software that blocks the sending of an e-mail that is identical in content to an e-mail that one has already sent, regardless of whether the subject-line has been changed. Hence, I can send only a single message _truly_ empty of content, it being clearly the case that no empty set is distinct from any other empty set. So, even though I mark an e-mail as having "no (useful) content," that e-mail _must_ have _some_ content and that content _must_ be distinct from that of any other post that I've already sent. Otherwise, it will be bounced. Said content, however, may be pure gibberish. "There it is. Give it a name." As they say in Vietnam-era novels. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 00:40:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:40:52 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108011951.p71Anj15008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I think an argument could be made either way. You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? Do it, then. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 2 01:08:21 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 21:08:21 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> I think an argument could be made either way. > > You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes > sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards > is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? > > Do it, then. "effective" = 'achieving the intended purpose', in this case hitting the intended target "deadly" = 'resulting in death', not necessarily of the intended target My example in the earlier part of the excerpted e-mail was intended to illustrate this possibility. Let's see…yes, "If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would certainly be deadly, but would it be effective?" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 02:02:39 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:02:39 -0400 Subject: ink Message-ID: This is likely the shortest and the most common word that *I* have found to have an insufficient coverage in the OED. There are three separate noun entries, but the one of concern is ink n.1--the other two are unrelated. There is only one entry with two subentries--liquid ink and squid ink (a. and b., respectively), plus a long list of compounds. What's missing? 1. tattoo(s) 2. press coverage, published news story in a periodical 3. "to get ink" in both senses above, particularly "to get some ink"==either to have been mentioned in a news story or to get a new tattoo (see also below for "to get fresh ink" for the latter) 4. solid/powdered pigment or toner for electronic devices (including for commercial printing, which, at the moment, is only covered as "thick paste") 5. Also "dry ink" in the same sense as 4. There is a draft edition for 1997 for "ink cartridge", but not 6. ink-jet (short for 7. below) 7. ink-jet printer This is particularly odd because the last example under "ink cartridge" includes it: 1992 RS Components: Electronic & Electr. Products July–Oct. 115/1 A > replacement ink cartridge, containing a specially formulated free flowing > non-clogging ink, for the Epson SQ-2500 ink jet printer. There is also related 9. ink-jet paper 8. ink dot Also for ink v. there are two senses corresponding to 1. and 2. 9. to author/pen a story (news, feature or column)--similar to draft addition for 1993 for inking a contract/deal 10. to draw/make a tattoo (the opposite of 3. above) I'm not giving specific examples because I presume that they are fairly common. What got my attention was a comment during some TV news program concerning Nicole Richie "getting fresh ink" (a new ADDITIONAL tattoo). One compound stands out to me: ink-mushroom n. a mushroom of the genus Coprinus. I usually know this one as "ink-cap" (included under compounds) or "inky cap" ( http://goo.gl/YgZ4O -- incorporated under compounds under inky adj.), but the most common name is "Shaggy Mane" or, occasionally, "shaggy ink cap" (Coprinus comatus -- both included under shaggy adj.). One English denomination is "lawyer's wig" (listed under lawyer n.), although this could be a regionalism used in other parts of the world. One thing I have NEVER seen in contemporary mushroom literature is "ink-mushroom", although I don't discount the possibility that there are earlier references to it. The trouble is, this is one of over a dozen of compounds that have no examples attached in the article. I am sure there are a few other things I am missing. But this is all I could do in half an hour. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 02:11:24 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:11:24 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108020108.p71LTjdG003659@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nice try, Larry. But no. The writer may have been trying to say that a man shooting a rifle loaded with a Minie ball might fire accurately at 250 yards, but the ball could still be deadly at 500. That may be an understatement: Minie balls were .58-caliber, conical, and made of soft lead; in other words, huge dumdum bullets. JL On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 1, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> I think an argument could be made either way. > > > > You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes > > sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards > > is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? > > > > Do it, then. > > "effective" = 'achieving the intended purpose', in this case hitting the > intended target > "deadly" = 'resulting in death', not necessarily of the intended target > > My example in the earlier part of the excerpted e-mail was intended to > illustrate this possibility. Let's see…yes, > > "If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by > dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along > with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would certainly > be deadly, but would it be effective?" > > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 02:28:23 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:28:23 -0400 Subject: Ii's been happening for quite some time, now Message-ID: The NYTM July 31, 2011, p.25b "Mauricio _lay_ a rosary on the table." Somehow, I senior-momented all of the earlier examples of _laid_ reanalyzed as _lay_, before. In like manner, I may have overlooked other listers earlier noting of this phenomenon. OT: Yesterday, I heard myself ask, "Wear [are you going]" when I'd meant to say "Where [...]." Oh, well. Nothing lasts forever. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 09:04:03 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:04:03 -0400 Subject: Famous quotation about the weather in San Francisco (Duluth in 1900) and a mystery volume with restricted access in Google Books In-Reply-To: <201107131945.p6DB9hm4028535@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: George Thompson wrote: > *The life of Mr. James Quin, comedian. With the history of the stage from > his commencing actor to his retreat to Bath. L*ondon, MDCCLXVI. [1766]. > > This is in the 18th C Collections Online. The words "summer" and "july" > seem to not appear in the text; the word "winter" appears 3 or 4 times, but > not in this context. Many thanks for checking this George. This suggests that the details of the weather joke were added to the reprint of the "The Life of Mr. James Quin, Comedian" after the original 1766 publication. The Oxford Companion to Theatre and Performance says that James Quin lived from 1693 to 1766. Worldcat says that the reprint of "The Life of Mr. James Quin" was published in 1887. In the Google Books copy of "The Life of Mr. James Quin" the Supplement section begins on page 65 and the weather joke is on page 100 near the end of the volume. http://books.google.com/books?id=6FwLAAAAIAAJ&q=supplement#v=snippet& http://books.google.com/books?id=6FwLAAAAIAAJ&q=%22last+winter%22#v=snippet& The letter mentioning the joke by Quin is dated 1789 more than two decades after his death. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 09:04:43 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:04:43 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n In-Reply-To: <201108011738.p71AnjpD008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dan Goncharoff > Golf has been played at Wimbledon Common since 1865, and there were > conflicts between the golfers and other park users toward the end of > the 19th century, and I can imagine a joke being made about young > girls chasing after golf balls in the park. No clue about the "w-m-n" > abbreviation, however. Thanks for your valuable comment, Dan. A webpage providing "A Short History of the Royal Wimbledon Golf Club" states that a group of women opened a nine-hole golf course on Wimbledon Common land about six months before the article with "W-m-n" was published. http://www.rwgc.co.uk/History.aspx A Ladies Club had been in existence on Wimbledon Common, albeit with a ten year break in the 1880’s, from the earliest days. In May 1891, after 145 ladies had responded to an invitation for membership, they opened their own nine hole course on Common land rather reluctantly allocated by the Conservators and took possession of their Clubhouse, the previously derelict Thatched Cottage, restored by the men. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 11:56:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 07:56:42 -0400 Subject: ink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/1/2011 10:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >This is likely the shortest and the most common word that *I* have found to >have an insufficient coverage in the OED. Congratulations, Victor! Previously, the record for the shortest and most common words having insufficient coverage have been the four-letter words. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 12:04:15 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:04:15 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/2/2011 05:04 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >Thanks for your valuable comment, Dan. A webpage providing "A Short >History of the Royal Wimbledon Golf Club" states that a group of women >opened a nine-hole golf course on Wimbledon Common land about six >months before the article with "W-m-n" was published. > >http://www.rwgc.co.uk/History.aspx > >A Ladies Club had been in existence on Wimbledon Common, albeit with a >ten year break in the 1880's, from the earliest days. In May 1891, >after 145 ladies had responded to an invitation for membership, they >opened their own nine hole course on Common land rather reluctantly >allocated by the Conservators and took possession of their Clubhouse, >the previously derelict Thatched Cottage, restored by the men. Perhaps for a while after these events, among the gentlemen of the Royal Wimbledon Golf Club "women" was a four-letter word. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Tue Aug 2 14:20:17 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:20:17 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived Message-ID: On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner in which it was arrived". The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. Neal Whitman ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 14:30:18 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:30:18 -0400 Subject: A process called "serendipity" Message-ID: In an interview on Boston radio this morning about the new method of creating innovative technologies at MIT (see subtitle of his book), with its new, open floorplans allowing teachers, students, and "sponsors" to mix freely and observe each other's ... innovations, Frank Moss said "... it's [or "in"] a process we call "serendipity' ...". I don't suppose they were able to patent it, however. And they probably can't trademark it either -- perhaps 5 different uses in Google Books, the earliest 1965. So I'm somewhat behind the times in not recognizing serendipity as a process, rather than a happenstance. Moss is author of "The Sorcerers and Their Apprentices (2011) and former director of MIT's Media Lab, but now "managing partner of Strategic Software Ventures, LLC, and a part-time professor of the practice at the MIT Media Lab, where he heads the New Media Medicine group", according to his biography on an MIT Media Lab site. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 14:34:29 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:34:29 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which Americans would (usually) not drop? Joel At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: >On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the >debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner >in which it was arrived". > >The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of >prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the >order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the >prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed >preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed >hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at >the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* >stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. > >Neal Whitman > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 15:09:53 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 11:09:53 -0400 Subject: ink In-Reply-To: <201108021156.p72AqFbp015978@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Joel. There are not enough underappreciated four-letter words to express how grateful I am for that observation. But they sound better in Russian, where they are three-letter words. Actually, this is not the first three-letter word I've commented on. There was at least one other--fob. VS-) PS: Sheesh! Can't even crack a lame joke without someone trying to upstage you ... anymore... On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/1/2011 10:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >This is likely the shortest and the most common word that *I* have found > to > >have an insufficient coverage in the OED. > > Congratulations, Victor! Previously, the record for the shortest and > most common words having insufficient coverage have been the four-letter > words. > > JSB > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 16:10:32 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:10:32 -0400 Subject: Paul Harvey and language Message-ID: Someone forwarded a link to a Snopes debunking of a particular story that has been circulating around the "intertubes" for a few years and I recognized as either being one of Paul Harvey's The Rest of the Story stories or one that was closely modeled after that template. Predictably, the story was patently untrue--as were most of Harvey's stories, including many that he reported as straight news. But let's skip speaking ill of the dead (although I spoke the same way about him when he was alive) and focus on words. Specifically, Wiki article mentions that Harvey "enriched" the English language by coining at least three famous words--skyjack[ing], Reaganomics and guesstimate. My gut reaction was that the claim--like most of Harvey's own reports--was patently false. Of course, I could be wrong. Both MWOL and Online Etymology Dictionary (OEtD) report that "skyjack" was first used in 1961, apparently coined by the NY Mirror in its headlines. As far as I know, Harvey did not work for the NY Mirror--he was a radio broadcast journalist, known more for his voice and seemless transition between news, advertising and fiction. I suppose, it is possible that Harvey coined the term which was then picked up by the Mirror, but I found no evidence of it. OEtD reports that the /noun/ "guesstimate" has been in use since 1906--hardly something that Harvey could have contributed, although that still leaves the possibility that he might have verbed it. Again, I found no records other than claims in his obituaries. Reaganomics is more recent and terminology quickly turned viral soon after inauguration (in early 1981) so I did not even try to look this one up. But I am hoping someone else might have better records on this. In any case, I just wanted to seed this investigation, as I will be traveling for the next week and won't be able to do much on this subject. I hope this is something that can be settled definitively. Good hunting! VS-) PS: A quick search on "coined Reaganomics" revealed something interesting, although not about the coinage. It seems a LOT of people use "coined" as "that someone called" or just "called". Note that the search is for two separate words, although proximity appears to push them higher in the search hierarchy. In the 1980s, Ronald Reagan and his cabinet unleashed his style of economics > that was *coined Reaganomics*. Ronald Reagan's economic policies of retrenchment, tax cuts, budget deficits > and monetarism, *coined* by the media as *Reaganomics*, had both positive > and *...* Later *coined Reaganomics*, the expectation was that reduced tax rates and > regulation would actually result in more revenue for the Government *...* A study by the libertarian CATO Institute assessed the supply-side economic > policies during the Reagan administration – *coined* “*Reaganomics*. This new idea *coined* '*Reaganomics*' was that the poor would now provide > for the rich. > There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for one, find this bizarre. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 16:16:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:16:22 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108021434.p72Am2Bq018715@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've noticed this phenomenon before, though only once or twice. Both times, however, were on NPR, and quite recently at that. I believe the verbs were different. My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the "preposition." Or is that too utterly absurd? JL On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which > Americans would (usually) not drop? > > Joel > > At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > >On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the > >debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner > >in which it was arrived". > > > >The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of > >prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the > >order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the > >prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed > >preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed > >hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at > >the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* > >stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. > > > >Neal Whitman > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 16:19:44 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:19:44 -0400 Subject: Paul Harvey and language In-Reply-To: <201108021610.p72AoLVl007836@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for one, find this bizarre. Quease-making yes, but not bizarre. I've heard this usage on TV news more than once within the past, say, three to five years. JL On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:10 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Paul Harvey and language > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Someone forwarded a link to a Snopes debunking of a particular story that > has been circulating around the "intertubes" for a few years and I > recognized as either being one of Paul Harvey's The Rest of the Story > stories or one that was closely modeled after that template. Predictably, > the story was patently untrue--as were most of Harvey's stories, including > many that he reported as straight news. But let's skip speaking ill of the > dead (although I spoke the same way about him when he was alive) and focus > on words. Specifically, Wiki article mentions that Harvey "enriched" the > English language by coining at least three famous words--skyjack[ing], > Reaganomics and guesstimate. My gut reaction was that the claim--like most > of Harvey's own reports--was patently false. Of course, I could be wrong. > > Both MWOL and Online Etymology Dictionary (OEtD) report that "skyjack" was > first used in 1961, apparently coined by the NY Mirror in its headlines. As > far as I know, Harvey did not work for the NY Mirror--he was a radio > broadcast journalist, known more for his voice and seemless transition > between news, advertising and fiction. I suppose, it is possible that > Harve= > y > coined the term which was then picked up by the Mirror, but I found no > evidence of it. OEtD reports that the /noun/ "guesstimate" has been in use > since 1906--hardly something that Harvey could have contributed, although > that still leaves the possibility that he might have verbed it. Again, I > found no records other than claims in his obituaries. Reaganomics is more > recent and terminology quickly turned viral soon after inauguration (in > early 1981) so I did not even try to look this one up. But I am hoping > someone else might have better records on this. > > In any case, I just wanted to seed this investigation, as I will be > traveling for the next week and won't be able to do much on this subject. I > hope this is something that can be settled definitively. Good hunting! > > VS-) > > PS: A quick search on "coined Reaganomics" revealed something interesting, > although not about the coinage. It seems a LOT of people use "coined" as > "that someone called" or just "called". Note that the search is for two > separate words, although proximity appears to push them higher in the > searc= > h > hierarchy. > > > In the 1980s, Ronald Reagan and his cabinet unleashed his style of > economic= > s > > that was *coined Reaganomics*. > > > > Ronald Reagan's economic policies of retrenchment, tax cuts, budget > deficit= > s > > and monetarism, *coined* by the media as *Reaganomics*, had both positive > > and *...* > > > Later *coined Reaganomics*, the expectation was that reduced tax rates and > > regulation would actually result in more revenue for the Government *...* > > > A study by the libertarian CATO Institute assessed the supply-side economic > > policies during the Reagan administration =96 *coined* =93*Reaganomics*. > > > This new idea *coined* '*Reaganomics*' was that the poor would now provide > > for the rich. > > > > There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for > one, find this bizarre. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 2 16:27:29 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 11:27:29 -0500 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived Message-ID: Maybe we deal here with a sort of blend: "the manner in which it was reached" + "the manner in which it was arrived at". A traditional blend of these two would yield "...was reached at." But in the construction "in which it was arrived" we may see the loss of "at" due to its absence in "...was reached." G. Cohen ________________________________ Jonathan Lighter wrote, Tue 8/2/2011 11:16 AM I've noticed this phenomenon before, though only once or twice. Both times, however, were on NPR, and quite recently at that. I believe the verbs were different. My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the "preposition." Or is that too utterly absurd? JL On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which > Americans would (usually) not drop? > > Joel > > At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > >On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the > >debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner > >in which it was arrived". > > > >The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of > >prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the > >order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the > >prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed > >preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed > >hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at > >the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* > >stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. > > > >Neal Whitman > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 2 16:55:57 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:55:57 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2011, at 12:16 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I've noticed this phenomenon before, though only once or twice. Both times, > however, were on NPR, and quite recently at that. I believe the verbs were > different. > > My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending > a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the > "preposition." > > Or is that too utterly absurd? > > Well, let's say it's a claim that I'd have some credence. LH > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which >> Americans would (usually) not drop? >> >> Joel >> >> At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: >>> On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the >>> debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner >>> in which it was arrived". >>> >>> The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of >>> prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the >>> order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the >>> prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed >>> preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed >>> hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at >>> the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* >>> stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. >>> >>> Neal Whitman >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 2 18:00:26 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 14:00:26 -0400 Subject: Paul Harvey and language In-Reply-To: <201108021619.p72FmLfM018715@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:10 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > > This new idea *coined* '*Reaganomics*' was that the poor would now provide > > > for the rich. > > > > There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for > > one, find this bizarre. > > Quease-making yes, but not bizarre. I've heard this usage on TV news more > than once within the past, say, three to five years. JL noted this usage in Oct. 2006, and Grant Barrett pointed to a blog entry he'd written about it earlier that year: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0610B&L=ADS-L&m=52654&P=7459 http://www.doubletongued.org/coined --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 18:11:53 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 14:11:53 -0400 Subject: "Fluxus happening" Message-ID: Not in OED as an adjectival phrase, nor is "Fluxus" (as a noun). As "Argot [no kidding!] Murelius, a 43-year-old art writer who participated, her black lace lingerie peeking out from beneath her pink sweatsuit", said, "It's like a Fluxus happening -- it's sort of jaw-dropping, it's this moment, and it's never going to happen again." This particular Fluxus happening is Monday morning's "bare market" disrobing of about 50 persons on (or near?) Wall Street, as part of a performance-art piece called "Ocularpation", designed by Zefrey Throwell [also no kidding!]. See NYTimes, Aug. 2, C1 [New England edition], or http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/arts/design/zefrey-throwells-ocularpation-wall-street.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss (An implication from the article is that a Times reporter might have been an accessory before the fact -- "Over coffee in Bryant Park last week, [Mr. Throwell] explained his project." There were three arrests Monday.) A few hundred GBooks hits for "Fluxus happening/event/experience". See also Wikipedia for the origin of "Fluxus". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 2 20:37:20 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:37:20 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news Message-ID: U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Aug 3 04:09:50 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 00:09:50 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news Message-ID: Wow, "tar baby" really is a word for "black person". It's even in the OED, and I found hits from the 1910s in the Google News Archive referring to a black boxer from Boston named Sam Langford as "the Boston tar baby". That's too bad. I always liked the Uncle Remus story about the tar baby, and hate that the offensive meaning is ushering out the colorful, funny and useful one. Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 4:37 PM Subject: "tar baby" in the news > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment > > http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 06:14:26 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 02:14:26 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108022037.p72AqFFN015978@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Laurence Horn > Subject: � � � "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment > > http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." Really? I did not know that. FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the _Tar-Babies_ At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as unreal, and I ain't going for it. Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 09:04:51 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:04:51 +0000 Subject: preserving ancient scripts by carving them into wood In-Reply-To: <201107232309.p6NAo9Hh011859@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: preserving ancient scripts by carving them into wood http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/08/the-eerie-beauty-of-rare-alphabets/242854/ Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 10:41:04 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 06:41:04 -0400 Subject: guesstimate (was Paul Harvey and language) Message-ID: Victor Steinbok > OEtD reports that the /noun/ "guesstimate" has been in use > since 1906--hardly something that Harvey could have contributed, although > that still leaves the possibility that he might have verbed it. The Online Etymology Dictionary appears to claim that the verb form of guesstimate was used by 1902 and the noun form by 1906. OED and Merriam Webster have later dates. guesstimate (v.) 1902, a blending of guess (v.) and estimate. Related: Guesstimated; guesstimating. As a noun, from 1906. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=guesstimate Here is a cite for the noun in 1904. Cite: 1904 April 15, Chicago Tribune, [No title; One item in a series of short items], Page 6, Column 3, Chicago, Illinois. (ProQuest) "All the same," declares the Troy (N. Y.) Times, "the census estimate is undoubtedly more reliable than Chicago guesswork." Out here it is considered merely a census guesstimate. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 3 17:35:04 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:35:04 -0700 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108021616.p72AoLWF007836@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending > a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the > "preposition." that seems to be going on in some of the omitted-P examples that the Language Loggers have discussed. a somewhat different case of P-omission: It’s probably the area of the coast that I had spent the least amount of time [in]. (Alex Fradkin, interviewed on KQED, 8/2/11) Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square dancing at Brock University) ... the community that I live [in] (writer Jesse Katz, interviewed on Latino USA, heard on KQED 11/2/09) the first and fourth aren't cases of P-cannibalism. but they're all cases where a _where_ relative would be fine (instead of a _that_ relative or a zero relative). Neal's latest example is reminiscent of one Jon Lighter posted here on 4/25/11: Yesterday an anchor on Fox News referred to a colleague as "someone who we're never able to stay away!" [omitted _from_] this example doesn't even have the pied-piping that might motivate P-omission. a few others of this sort: This is hard territory to mount a rescue [in]. (BBC reporter, NPR Saturday Morning Edition, 10/8/05, about the scene of earthquakes in Pakistan) ... take a variable that we already know the behavior [of]. (Laura Staum NWAV presentation, 10/21/05) Here’s something I should have gone into more detail [on]. (Jonathan Ginzburg, talk at Stanford, 5/16/07) That’s something that I think we need to make a change [in]. (Iowa farmer interviewed on NPR’s Morning Edition, 6/11/07) ... and other important things that we hope to get them the money [for]. (Rep. Barney Frank on NPR’s Saturday Morning Edition, 1/19/08) This is a state that John McCain might not do that well [in]. (reporter David Green on NPR’s Sunday Morning Edition, 1/20/08) It’s not the Christmas parties you didn’t invite me [to]. (character on Nash Bridges episode “Javelin Catcher”, seen in re-runs 2/08) ...to receive the endorsement of the president of the united states, a man who I have great admiration, respect and affection [for]. (John McCain, in a press conference with GWB, 3/5/08) my interpretation of such examples is not that people are avoiding ending a sentence with a preposition, but that they think the preposition is "understood" in context; the preposition is selected for by the preceding verbal construction. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 17:50:38 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:50:38 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031735.p73AlkUZ031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This example intrigued me: > Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. > (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although it does in this similar example: ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square dancing at Brock University) I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 2, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending >> a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the >> "preposition." > > that seems to be going on in some of the omitted-P examples that the Language Loggers have discussed. > > a somewhat different case of P-omission: > > It’s probably the area of the coast that I had spent the least amount of time [in]. > (Alex Fradkin, interviewed on KQED, 8/2/11) > > Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. > (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > > ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square dancing at Brock University) > > ... the community that I live [in] > (writer Jesse Katz, interviewed on Latino USA, heard on KQED 11/2/09) > > the first and fourth aren't cases of P-cannibalism. but they're all cases where a _where_ relative would be fine (instead of a _that_ relative or a zero relative). > > Neal's latest example is reminiscent of one Jon Lighter posted here on 4/25/11: > > Yesterday an anchor on Fox News referred to a colleague as "someone who we're never able to stay away!" [omitted _from_] > > this example doesn't even have the pied-piping that might motivate P-omission. a few others of this sort: > > This is hard territory to mount a rescue [in]. > (BBC reporter, NPR Saturday Morning Edition, 10/8/05, about the scene of earthquakes in Pakistan) > > ... take a variable that we already know the behavior [of]. > (Laura Staum NWAV presentation, 10/21/05) > > Here’s something I should have gone into more detail [on]. > (Jonathan Ginzburg, talk at Stanford, 5/16/07) > > That’s something that I think we need to make a change [in]. > (Iowa farmer interviewed on NPR’s Morning Edition, 6/11/07) > > ... and other important things that we hope to get them the money [for]. > (Rep. Barney Frank on NPR’s Saturday Morning Edition, 1/19/08) > > This is a state that John McCain might not do that well [in]. > (reporter David Green on NPR’s Sunday Morning Edition, 1/20/08) > > It’s not the Christmas parties you didn’t invite me [to]. > (character on Nash Bridges episode “Javelin Catcher”, seen in re-runs 2/08) > > ...to receive the endorsement of the president of the united states, a man who I have great admiration, respect and affection [for]. > (John McCain, in a press conference with GWB, 3/5/08) > > my interpretation of such examples is not that people are avoiding ending a sentence with a preposition, but that they think the preposition is "understood" in context; the preposition is selected for by the preceding verbal construction. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 3 17:57:47 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:57:47 -0700 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031751.p73FeeWA028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > This example intrigued me: > >> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. >> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > > The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although > it does in this similar example: > > ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the > other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square > dancing at Brock University) > > I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. that's right. but it is a zero/where example. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 3 18:16:44 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:16:44 -0500 Subject: Two books of possible interest Message-ID: I pass along the following announcement fyi. The first book has several items pertaining to English etymology and the second one may be of interest to onomasticians. Incidentally, I have no financial interest in either item. G. Cohen ________________________________ From: jewish-languages at googlegroups.com on behalf of Sarah Benor Sent: Tue 8/2/2011 2:20 PM To: JEWISH LANGUAGES Subject: [Jewish Languages] Fwd: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST Dear JL list, David Gold asked me to forward this annoucement. Sarah ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Gold Date: Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 7:49 AM Subject: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST The Press of the University of Alicante announces the publication of David L. Gold's Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Slavic, and Romance Languages). Enclosed is an attachment which gives details about the book as well as about Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography, of which he is the editor. Two Books of Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Linguistic Interest Gold, David L. 2009. Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Languages) / Selected and Edited, with a Foreword, by Félix Rodríguez González and Antonio Lillo Buades. Alicante. Publicaciones de la Universidad de Alicante. 870 pages. ISBN 978-84-7908-517-9. Dictionaries usually give only brief treatment to etymologies and even etymological dictionaries often do not lavish on them the attention they deserve. To help fill the gap, the author deals in depth with several etymologically problematic words in various Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic languages, all of which have hitherto either been misetymologized or not etymologized at all (the three most detailed chapters - 14, 16, and 31 - are respectively 104, 130, and 134 pages long). Sometimes, he succeeds in cracking the nut; sometimes, he is able only to clear away misunderstanding; but always he endeavors to set the stage for further serious treatment, as in the several chapters disproving or doubting a Yiddish or Hebrew origin for certain English lexemes. Usually, the author marshals not only linguistic but also historical and cultural information, his approach thus being both linguistic and philological. He deals too with etiology, an often essential but not infrequently neglected component of etymological research. For example, dictionaries in all languages that include a lexeme translating literally as 'Molotov cocktail' not only misetymologize it but also either fail to etiologize it (why does it commemorate Vyatsheslav Mikhailovitsh Molotov?) or misetiologize it. Chapter 10 (42 pages), based in part on an examination of relevant Finnish military terms and other Finnish sources, presents, for the first time, the right etymology and the right etiology. Since this book, which consists of thirty studies in English and one in romanized Yiddish, discusses methodology (notably in chapter 11 but also in most others), it has the makings of an introduction to the science, art, and craft of etymology. The titles of the studies are: 1. The Alleged Russian Origin of French bistro ~ bistrot 'wine merchant; public house' Versus Its Probable Ultimate Origin in Vulgar Latin or Gallo-Romance (On the Persistence of a Folk Etymology and Folk Etiology Despite the Suggestion of Better Etymologies) 2. The Origin of Chicano Spanish blanquillo 'testicle' (On How Emulated Dyosemy Can Defeat the Purpose of a Euphemism) 3. The British English Origin of Informal Israeli Hebrew braso 4. American English Slang copacetic 'fine, all right' Has No Hebrew, Yiddish, or Other Jewish Connection 5. The American English Slangism fink Probably Has No Jewish Connection 6. Definite and Possible English Reflexes of Spanish garbanzo 'chickpea' 7. Originally American English glitz, glitz up, and glitzy Probably Have No Yiddish Connection 8. Towards a Dossier on the Still Unclear Immediate Etymon(s?) of American English Slang hooker 'whore' (With Remarks on the Origin of American English Barnegat, Dixie, fly ~ vlei ~ vley ~ vlaie ~ vly, Gramercy Park, Hell Gate, jazz, sloughter, and Spuyten Duyvil) 9. American English jitney 'five-cent coin; sum of five cents' Has No Apparent Jewish or Russian Connection and May Come from (Black?) Louisiana French jetnée (On the Increasing Difficulty of Harvesting All the Grain) 10. Etymology and Etiology in the Study of Eponymous Lexemes: The Case of English Molotov cocktail and Finnish Molotovin koktaili 11. Nine Criteria for Assessing the Likelihood of Yiddish Influence on English (With Examples) 12. English paparazzo < Italian paparazzo = Commonization of the Label Name Paparazzo (in Federico Fellini's La Dolce Vita) < ? 13. New York City English parky 'park-keeper' Is Probably a Spontaneous Coinage Rather than a Borrowing from British English 14. When Chauvinism Interferes in Etymological Research: A Few Observations on the Supposed Vulgar Latin Derivation of Rumanian pastrama ~ pastrama, a Noun of Immediate Turkish Origin (With Preliminary Remarks on Related Words in Albanian, Arabic, Armenian, English, French, Greek, Hebrew, Judezmo, Polish, Russian, SerboCroatian, Spanish, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Yiddish) 15. An Immediate or Non-Immediate Jewish Connection for Dutch poeha and Variants (> Afrikaans bohaai > South African English bohaai), French brouhaha (> English brouhaha), French Brou, brou, ha, ha, Brou, ha, ha, High German buhai and Variants, Low German buhê and Variants, or Modern West Frisian bahey and Variants Has Not Been Proven (With Remarks on the Jewish Italian or Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Arezzo Dialectal barruccaba and the Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Italian badanai) 16. Mexican Spanish sarape ~ zarape (Whence American English sarape ~ serape ~ serapi ~ zarape and French sarapé ~ sérapé), a Word Possibly from Tarascan /'charakwa/, Probably Has No Jewish or Iranian Connection 17. Is Slang American English schnook ~ shnook 'pitifully meek person' from Informal High German Schnuck' 'a kind of small sheep', Northeastern Yiddish shnuk '[elephant's] trunk; snout [of other animals]', or Plattduetsch Schnück 'snail'? 18. Whence American English scrod and Grimsby English scrob? 19. Does American English shack 'shanty' Come From One or More Uto-Aztecan Languages of the American Plains? 20. The Etymology of English spiel and spieler and Scots English bonspiel 21. English Star Chamber Has No Jewish Connection 22. Who Can Decipher (Yiddish?) *"bashtem" and (Yiddish?) *"ghop bagi"? 23. The (Solely Southeastern?) Yiddish Cloth Name taniklot and the Rare American English Baking Term poolish 'leaven, starter, starter dough' 24. An Instance of Convergence: Frisian witte and Yiddish mideye 25. A Few English Words Misattributed to Yiddish (finagle, finical, finick, toco, trantle, and trantlum); a Yiddish-Origin English Word Misetymologized for at Least Sixty-One Years (bopkes); a Misetymologized Yiddish Pen Name (shmul niger); and a Misetymologized Eastern Yiddish Word (yavne-veyasne!) 26. Etymological and Sociolinguistic Notes of Czech and Jewish or Possible Jewish Interest (On Czech fizl, frajle, hajzl, Híra, ketas, mecheche, misuge ~ misuke, Nabuchodonozor ~ Nabukadnezar, pajzl, pejzy, smelina, smelinár, smok; Yiddish di alt-naye shul, peyem ~ peym; Olomouc in Yiddish Lexemes; Franz Kafka's Early Linguistic History; and the Investigation of Yiddish in Bohemia and Moravia) 27. On the Probable Kenaanic Origin of Two Eastern Yiddish Kin Terms, zeyde 'grandfather' and bobe 'grandmother' 28. Zinfandel: An American English Grape and Wine Name of Immediate Hungarian, Moravian Czech, and/or Slovak Origin (On How the Origin of a Significans Need Not Be Parallel to the Origin of the Corresponding Significatum) 29. Nokh a por dugmes fun der yidisher hashpoe af ivrit 30. Some More Israeli Hebrew Items of German Origin 31. Jewish Dickensiana, Part One: Despite Popular Belief, the Name Fagin in Charles Dickens's Oliver Twist Has No Jewish Connection (With Appendixes on Some Laws Concerning Personal Names and on Dickens's Authentic Yiddish Name) *** Since prices may change, none is indicated below. Please check before ordering. Ordering in North America: If ordering the print version by credit card: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=5356817830&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3DStudies%2Bin%Etymology%2Band%2Betiology%26x%3D0%26y%3D0 If ordering the print version through a PayPal account, please ask Digitalia for a link: Digitalia (attention: Lluis Claret) 708 Third Av (6 fl) New York NY 10017-4119 U S A telephone 1- 212 209-3980 fax 1-347 626-2388 http://lclaret @digitalia.us If ordering the ebook Kindle version: http://www.amazon.com/ETYMOLOGY-ETIOLOGY-EMPHASIS-LANGUAGES-ebook/dp/B004D500BM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311625551&sr=8-1 If ordering access to the ebook pdf version online (for individuals or libraries): http://www.digitalia.us Ordering in Mexico: Universo Bibliográfico, SA de CV C/ Norte, 21 A, n.º 5212 Colonia Nuevo Vallejo México DF 07750 telephone (55) 5233 6144 fax (55) 2453 8847 http://www.ubisa @cablevision.net.mx Ordering in Argentina: Jorge Waldhuter, Distribución de libros Camarones 1526 (C1416ECD) Ciudad Autónoma de Buenos Aires fax 54 11 4-585-7562 http:www.jwalibros at ciudad.com.ar Ordering in other countries of Latin America: Pujol i Amadó C/ Cuenca 35 17220 Sant Feliu de Guíxols Girona España telephone and fax 011 34 972 323 366 http://www.bernat @pujolamado.com Ordering in other countries: Celesa C/ Laurel 21 ES-28005 Madrid / Spain telephone 011 34 915 17 01 70 fax 011 34 915 17 34 81 Other matters: Servei de Publicacions Universitat d'Alacant Campus de Sant Vicent del Raspeig Apartat de Correus 99 ES-03080 Alacant Spain telephone 011 34 96 5 90 3480 fax 011 34 96 5 90 9445 http://www.publicaciones.ua.es *** Singerman, Robert. 2001. Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography. Edited by David L. Gold. Leiden. Brill. x + 245 pp. ISBN 90 04 12189 7. Brill Academic Publishers Plantijnstraat 2 Postbus 9000 NL-2300 PA Leiden The Netherlands http://www.brill.nl/catalogue/productinfo.asp?product=9681 *** If you have any problem ordering either book or if you want to get a notice of D.L.G.'s next publication, please send a message to: dovedleyzer at yahoo.com (Notices of new publications will no longer be sent by postal mail.) -- Jewish Languages http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-languages/ To post: send a message to jewish-languages at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe: send a blank message to jewish-languages+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 18:35:54 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:35:54 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031757.p73AlkVT031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How exactly would where fit in? I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> This example intrigued me: >> >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) >> >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although >> it does in this similar example: >> >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square >> dancing at Brock University) >> >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. > > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 18:45:57 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:45:57 -0400 Subject: guesstimate (was Paul Harvey and language) In-Reply-To: <201108031041.p73A0AjR015978@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The Online Etymology Dictionary appears to claim that the verb form of > guesstimate was used by 1902 and the noun form by 1906. OED and > Merriam-Webster have later dates. > Oddly, as of this very moment, _guesstimate_ as a verb is, for me, *still* non-occurrent. I could become accustomed to it, I reckon, just as I've become accustomed to hearing that gross obscenity of my youth, "tap that ass," used as a throw-away phrase on prime-time TV.:-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 19:07:07 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:07:07 +0800 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031836.p73ISXnH016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > How exactly would where fit in? > it would be hard to misread this in the context {where} it appears [in]. > I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is > grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. > > DanG > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > >> This example intrigued me: > >> > >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it > appears [in]. > >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > >> > >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although > >> it does in this similar example: > >> > >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the > >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square > >> dancing at Brock University) > >> > >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. > > > > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 19:22:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:22:01 -0400 Subject: guesstimate (was Paul Harvey and language) In-Reply-To: <201108031846.p73AlkZX031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you do a basic search, the noun significantly outnumbers the verb, but it does not mean exclusivity. 3/18/11 http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/18/google-guesstimates-release-dates-for-movies-and-games/ >> Google guesstimates release dates for movies and games 6/24/11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIrnvqK50Cs >> Group of Doctors Guesstimates High Level of Radiation Exposure - Fukushima Meltdowns And "tap that ass" _has_ now become a throw-away phrase in _cable_ prime-time shows--even non-premium cable. I don't think I've watched a first-run network prime-time show in about 6 years (OK, I do watch occasional syndicated reruns or DVD versions), except perhaps for a handful of episodes of Fringe and Lie To Me two years ago (the latter having been put out of its misery very quickly and the former lasting far too long). VS-) On 8/3/11, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Oddly, as of this very moment, _guesstimate_ as a verb is, for me, > *still* non-occurrent. I could become accustomed to it, I reckon, just > as I've become accustomed to hearing that gross obscenity of my youth, > "tap that ass," used as a throw-away phrase on prime-time TV.:-) > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 19:26:36 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:26:36 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031907.p73ISXrv016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry if this is coming across as extreme nitpicking. For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not consider context to be a place. Once you cross that hurdle, however, I still think the second "in" sounds redundant: in the context where it appears would sound fine to my ears if I thought context could take a "where" "that" would work "in which" would work, and resolves the second "in" issue. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> How exactly would where fit in? >> > > it would be hard to misread this in the context {where} it appears [in]. > > >> I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is >> grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >> > >> >> This example intrigued me: >> >> >> >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it >> appears [in]. >> >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) >> >> >> >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although >> >> it does in this similar example: >> >> >> >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the >> >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. >> >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square >> >> dancing at Brock University) >> >> >> >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. >> > >> > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. >> > >> > arnold >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > Randy Alexander > Xiamen, China > Blogs: > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 20:01:18 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 04:01:18 +0800 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031927.p73ISXtn016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not > consider context to be a place. > Along those lines, it would seem that "appear" doesn't work either; doesn't something need a place (even if it's a metaphorical place) to appear? COCA has 127 instances of "context where", most of which are from academic (presumably copyedited) writing. -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 20:11:00 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:11:00 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108032001.p73Fee00028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Er, no. A figure can appear in the rain, but rain is not a place, and using "where" to refer to the rain would probably be wrong. As for using academic writing as proof of correctness, I don't think I will make a lot of friends continuing this argument. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not >> consider context to be a place. >> > > Along those lines, it would seem that "appear" doesn't work either; doesn't > something need a place (even if it's a metaphorical place) to appear? > > COCA has 127 instances of "context where", most of which are from academic > (presumably copyedited) writing. > > -- > Randy Alexander > Xiamen, China > Blogs: > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 3 20:27:43 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:27:43 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" Message-ID: In honor of the recently released eponymous movie (cf. http://www.fwb-movie.com/), the "friends with benefits" euphemism appears to be lacking in the OED. The closest is one of the several April 2010 Draft Additions: An advantage or perk (such as a pension, company car, life insurance, etc.) provided for an employee by an employer, in addition to wages or salary. Chiefly in pl. Cf. fringe benefit But we don't want to entice people to see the movie in question expecting that either Justin Timberlake or Mila Kunis is offering the other a company car or life insurance in addition to the wages or salary that normally come with the job. And god forbid pensions are involved—we know how likely *they* are to be honored anymore. I believe this euphemism has been in place for awhile and should have at least some staying power, especially now that it can be abbreviated as FWB; I may have first noticed it in one of my undergraduates' New Words journals a number of years back. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Aug 3 20:33:16 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:33:16 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <83C242DB-336C-4C1B-8D45-58A236D868AD@yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 04:27:43PM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > In honor of the recently released eponymous movie (cf. > http://www.fwb-movie.com/), the "friends with benefits" euphemism > appears to be lacking in the OED. It's on The List. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 21:32:18 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:32:18 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic Message-ID: I Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." II Another CNN analyst explained that the UN is reluctant to get involved in countries like Syria "no matter how gruesome or graphic the government is treating its own people." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 22:25:22 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:25:22 +0000 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031836.p73FeegW028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think one could keep the in in in the context that it's in in my opinion. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How exactly would where fit in? > > I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is > grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. > > DanG > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > >> This example intrigued me: > >> > >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. > >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > >> > >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although > >> it does in this similar example: > >> > >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the > >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square > >> dancing at Brock University) > >> > >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. > > > > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 22:59:28 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:59:28 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108032132.p73Alkk3031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not part of the great narrative" in 1994. New York Times CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side By Martha Saxton Published: November 13, 1994 http://goo.gl/4PahY http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we teach. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 23:32:24 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:32:24 -0400 Subject: Exclamation: Great Scott (1856 December) Message-ID: The exclamation "Great Scott" was discussed by Michael Quinion in 2002 at World Wide Words and by Fred Shapiro in 2010 on the Freakonomics blog. The ADS list archive has some messages on the topic in 2002 and 2003. The comment section of Fred's most recent post mentions "Great Scott". http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-gre4.htm http://www.freakonomics.com/2010/02/25/quotes-uncovered-great-scott-and-book-burners/ http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/07/28/a-scuffle-over-scuffle/ The earliest currently known citations for the exclamation are dated in the 1860s I think. Here is a citation in 1856. (The phrase "Great Scott" appeared considerably earlier, but I was searching for the exclamation. In the 1840s Great Scott meetings were held.) Cite: 1856 December, The Eclectic Medical Journal, Review of Buchanan's Anthropology by Prof. L. E. Jones, M. D., Start Page 520, Quote Page 524, Column 1, Fourth Series, Volume II, Number 12, Published by R. S. & ). E. Newton, Cincinnati, Ohio. (Google Books full view) Oh! Moses! Let no man hereafter presume to say Ex-Prof. Buchanan has not taught, and does not teach, practical Eclecticism. He informs you, Eclectics, that these conditions are of great physiological value, "as they are highly applicable to the treatment of disease." He tells you the aquatic, or cold blooded condition, is valuable as an antiphlogistic agent, and that it soothes and tranquilizes the lungs. "Great Scott!" Mystery upon mystery, and marvel upon marvel! Will day ever dawn? What does our author mean? The writer is again unexpectedly surrounded by the eternal fogs of our author's brilliant scientific discoveries, and by the brilliancy of his elocution! http://books.google.com/books?id=nHgBAAAAYAAJ&q=%22Great+Scott%22#v=snippet& Here is a cite in 1865 describing how one person used the exclamation. Cite: 1865 July 19, Freeport Weekly Journal Page 1, Column 6, A Pair of Illinois Portraits, Freeport, Illinois. (NewspaperArchive) A PAIR OF ILLINOIS PORTRAITS. Gen. Turner and Colonel Shaffer. >From Colonel's Halpine's "Personal Recollections of the War." MAJOR GENERAL JOHN W. TURNER - THE CORN-FED BOY FROM ILLINOY Let me next remind you - though well convinced you do not need reminding – of Major General John W. Turner, then a captain of the commissary department , and our chief commissary, although previous to the war a first lieutenant of the regular artillery, to which arm of the service he returned as a volunteer on every occasion of active service, John was "a corn-fed boy from Illinoy," and was known throughout the command by the sobriquet of "Great Scott Turner," from a habit he had of exclaiming "Great Scott" - in lieu of the more objectionable exclamation more commonly used in the army and elsewhere - whenever profoundly astonished or moved by any excitement. "Great Scott," either energetically shouted or pathetically whispered, formed the safety-valve through which he blew off all the emotions of his ardent but well-disciplined spirit . "Great Scott" be shouted when the enem's flag went down. "Great Scott was the highest apostrophe that woman's beauty could win from him; … Here is a cite in 1869 stating that the exclamation was used by "regulars in the army." Cite: 1869 January 7, Hartford Daily Courant, Page 2, Column 1, Hartford, Connecticut. (GenealogyBank) The production of United States senators is lively about these days. Mr. Chandler of Michigan was re-nominated Wednesday evening, and the Republicans of the Pennsylvania legislature have nominated John Scott to by senator vice Buckalew. Mr. Chandler everybody knows, but "Great Scott!" as the regulars in the army say, who Is John Scott? For weeks all the good fellows in Pennsylvania have been saying that "It is of no use to try to make a good senator; Simon Cameron is bound to buy up the legislature anyhow." Is this Mr. Scott a lucky triumph for the decent men, or is it "just as we expected?" [All the text is from OCR. I have attempted to correct it but I am sure that errors persist.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Aug 4 01:52:30 2011 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:52:30 -0400 Subject: double hashtag Message-ID: Heard just now on _So You Think You Can Dance_: Lil C explains that when he wants to emphasize something on Twitter, he puts a hashtag on it. "This routine," he goes on to say, "was double hashtag buck." He repeats: "Double hashtag buck." You heard it here first! James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 02:02:43 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:02:43 -0400 Subject: A conundrum Message-ID: One of my pet peeves is people who ask me whether they can ask me a question, thereby asking me a question and precluding the possibility of my refusing them permission to ask me a question. It is not sensible to ask permission to ask a question by asking permission to ask a question, given that the only way to ask permission to ask a question is by asking a question without permission to ask a question. A straightforward way out of this is to oblige people to ask questions with asking for permission to ask a question. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 4 02:08:07 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:08:07 -0700 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040203.p73ISXJp016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. The question is not only a social nicety approximately meaning "excuse me," but provides the interlocutor a way to avoid needing to consider a serious question when brain resources are at a premium. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > One of my pet peeves is people who ask me whether they can ask me a > question, thereby asking me a question and precluding the possibility > of my refusing them permission to ask me a question. It is not > sensible to ask permission to ask a question by asking permission to > ask a question, given that the only way to ask permission to ask a > question is by asking a question without permission to ask a question. > > A straightforward way out of this is to oblige people to ask questions > with asking for permission to ask a question. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 02:29:48 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:29:48 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040208.p73Alkol031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > f I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. That wouldn't help you. You'd already have been asked a question before you had a chance to refuse the petitioner permission to ask you a question. Asking your permission to ask you a question is asking you a question without your permission.. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 4 02:35:58 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:35:58 -0700 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040230.p73ISXKT016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> f I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. > > That wouldn't help you. You'd already have been asked a question > before you had a chance to refuse the petitioner permission to ask you > a question. Asking your permission to ask you a question is asking you > a question without your permission.. No. Answering the question, "Can I ask you a question" requires a mere check on the brain resources. If, instead, the person runs a complex question through my brain while I am trying to figure out a complex Japanese passage, then I get confused and irritated. I prefer that I be given the option of whether to be flooded with a question requiring thought. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 03:53:01 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:53:01 +0000 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040208.p73KEnZU028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It peeves me too. You know they're dead set on asking the questiion. So why don't they say "Let me ask you this?" But to ask a question about permission to ask a question, means you've already asked a question in the first place. That's hashtag, really hashtag. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: A conundrum > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. The question is not only a social nicety approximately meaning "excuse me," but provides the interlocutor a way to avoid needing to consider a serious question when brain resources are at a premium. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > One of my pet peeves is people who ask me whether they can ask me a > > question, thereby asking me a question and precluding the possibility > > of my refusing them permission to ask me a question. It is not > > sensible to ask permission to ask a question by asking permission to > > ask a question, given that the only way to ask permission to ask a > > question is by asking a question without permission to ask a question. > > > > A straightforward way out of this is to oblige people to ask questions > > with asking for permission to ask a question. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 04:03:38 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:03:38 +0800 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108032011.p73Alkeh031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Er, no. > > A figure can appear in the rain, but rain is not a place, and using > "where" to refer to the rain would probably be wrong. > > As for using academic writing as proof of correctness, I don't think I > will make a lot of friends continuing this argument. > Well, you won't catch me trying to "prove correctness" (I'm not sure how you came under that assumption); I was using the COCA data to show that a significant number of copy editors didn't find a problem with "context where", which is evidence that the collocation is being accepted in academic English. Whether that's good or not is another matter entirely. Randy > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Randy Alexander > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Randy Alexander > > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Dan Goncharoff > wrote: > > > >> For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not > >> consider context to be a place. > >> > > > > Along those lines, it would seem that "appear" doesn't work either; > doesn't > > something need a place (even if it's a metaphorical place) to appear? > > > > COCA has 127 instances of "context where", most of which are from > academic > > (presumably copyedited) writing. > > > > -- > > Randy Alexander > > Xiamen, China > > Blogs: > > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 04:43:22 2011 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:43:22 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108030615.p72LLk6A018715@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson, Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. Herb On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender:    American Dialect Society >> Poster:    Laurence Horn >> Subject:    "tar baby" in the news >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." > > Really? I did not know that. > > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the > > _Tar-Babies_ > > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. > > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as > unreal, and I ain't going for it. > > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. > > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 06:12:22 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 02:12:22 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning Message-ID: A promo for an upcoming cable drama episode used the phrase "infected by radiation poisoning" which apparently is uttered in one of the scenes. A quick check suggests that being "infected" by radiation or one of its aspects is in fairly common use in texts promoting radiation survival, although it appears in other venues as well (at least one Trekkie site). Has this ship sailed? Does "infected" mean having been exposed to any kind of (physically) harmful influence that causes an illness? VS-) Three examples: > Shower with soap and water, scrubbing hard to remove any possible radiation from the body. This helps with the remaining 10% of external contamination, and lowers the risk of you breathing, ingesting or being _infected_ by harmful radiation particles. > Now that you've evacuated yourself from the _infected_ area and cleaned up a bit, it's time for the third step—increasing your distance to the infected zone. If you double the distance between you and the danger zone, the possible exposure of radiation is reduced by a factor of 4 (inverse-square law). > I then pointed out to you the comparative numbers of people who died or were _infected_ by radiation sickness in the MONTH after Chernobyl and in the MONTH (that is all we have so far) after Fukushima, and you extrapolated from that the fact that I was under-estimating the number of people who died or became infected after Chernobyl (a complete non sequitur if ever there was one, albeit a self-serving one). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:00:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:00:22 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108040443.p73Alkup031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > a cartoon image of a black baby. And, from the moment that you saw that, you internalized - in your passive vocabulary, at least - _tar-baby_ as a derogatory term for a black person? That's an amazing outcome! I really had no idea that racism was so easily instilled!:-( -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:03:01 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:03:01 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108040612.p73ISXX3016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > Does "infected" mean > having been exposed to any kind of (physically) harmful influence that > causes an illness? I hope not! Of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:22:46 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:22:46 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040236.p73ISXL5016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the question, "Can I ask you a question" Well, given that you don't deny that the question is a question... -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:29:18 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:29:18 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040723.p73KEnrq028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Can I ask you another question? Eric > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > > the question, "Can I ask you a question" > > Well, given that you don't deny that the question is a question... > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:49:58 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:49:58 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040729.p73ISXaX016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Can I ask you another question? "'Tain't funny, McGee!":-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Thu Aug 4 11:22:26 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:22:26 -0300 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040750.p73ISXah016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. Client: Isn't that a lot? Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? DAD : Re: A conundrum ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Can I ask you another question? "'Tain't funny, McGee!":-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Aug 4 12:13:27 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:13:27 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040729.p73ISXaX016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, no. Isn't the obvious workaround "Can I ask you two questions, including this one?" Neal On Aug 4, 2011, at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: A conundrum > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can I ask you another question? > > Eric > > >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Benjamin Barrett >> wrote: >>> the question, "Can I ask you a question" >> >> Well, given that you don't deny that the question is a question... >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 4 13:29:53 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:29:53 +0000 Subject: "tar baby" in the news Message-ID: "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Herb Stahlke To: Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news Wilson, Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. Herb On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender:    American Dialect Society >> Poster:    Laurence Horn >> Subject:    "tar baby" in the news >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." > > Really? I did not know that. > > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the > > _Tar-Babies_ > > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. > > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as > unreal, and I ain't going for it. > > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. > > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 14:02:39 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:02:39 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <002701cc5298$cbb3b300$631b1900$@com> Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 07:22 AM, David A. Daniel wrote: >Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? >Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. >Client: Isn't that a lot? >Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? >DAD This is the same lawyer who once met a doctor at a cocktail party. When the doctor learned he was a lawyer, the doctor said, "may I ask you a question?" Lawyer: Certainly. Doctor: When I meet people at cocktail parties and they learn I am a doctor, they often ask me to diagnose their symptoms. What should I do? Lawyer: Give them your opinion and send a bill in the morning. Doctor: Brilliant -- I'll do that! So the doctor went home happy. When he opened his mail the next morning, he found a bill from the lawyer for $200. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:02:49 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:02:49 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108032259.p73KEnRE028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean the "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." JL On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." > > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not > part of the great narrative" in 1994. > > New York Times > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side > By Martha Saxton > Published: November 13, 1994 > > http://goo.gl/4PahY > > http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html > > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we > teach. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:08:09 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:08:09 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb Message-ID: A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:15:06 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:15:06 +0000 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041330.p74AlZX3030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And it isn't certain but what Harris thought he was (more-or-less) accurately rendering a middle-Georgia AA dialect in his presentation of the (mostly) traditional AA tales. --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Ron Butters [ronbutters at AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 9:29 AM "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Herb Stahlke To: Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news Wilson, Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. Herb On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender:    American Dialect Society >> Poster:    Laurence Horn >> Subject:    "tar baby" in the news >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." > > Really? I did not know that. > > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the > > _Tar-Babies_ > > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. > > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as > unreal, and I ain't going for it. > > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. > > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 14:16:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:16:06 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with some quality or property by immersion or infusion. b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying substance, or active principle, as poison, or salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) †2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious corruption or the germs of disease; to render injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the body) with disease; to communicate a morbific virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] Joel At 8/4/2011 02:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >A promo for an upcoming cable drama episode used the phrase "infected >by radiation poisoning" which apparently is uttered in one of the >scenes. A quick check suggests that being "infected" by radiation or >one of its aspects is in fairly common use in texts promoting >radiation survival, although it appears in other venues as well (at >least one Trekkie site). Has this ship sailed? Does "infected" mean >having been exposed to any kind of (physically) harmful influence that >causes an illness? > >VS-) > >Three examples: > > > Shower with soap and water, scrubbing hard to > remove any possible radiation from the body. > This helps with the remaining 10% of external > contamination, and lowers the risk of you > breathing, ingesting or being _infected_ by harmful radiation particles. > > > > Now that you've evacuated yourself from the > _infected_ area and cleaned up a bit, it's time > for the third step—increasing your distance to > the infected zone. If you double the distance > between you and the danger zone, the possible > exposure of radiation is reduced by a factor of 4 (inverse-square law). > > > > I then pointed out to you the comparative > numbers of people who died or were _infected_ > by radiation sickness in the MONTH after > Chernobyl and in the MONTH (that is all we have > so far) after Fukushima, and you extrapolated > from that the fact that I was under-estimating > the number of people who died or became > infected after Chernobyl (a complete non > sequitur if ever there was one, albeit a self-serving one). > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:21:28 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:21:28 +0000 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108041403.p74Atrda025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As when PR specialists or damage-control experts or criminal lawyers and their clients meet to "decide on a narrative." --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:02 AM Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean the "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." JL On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." > > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not > part of the great narrative" in 1994. > > New York Times > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side > By Martha Saxton > Published: November 13, 1994 > > http://goo.gl/4PahY > > http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html > > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we > teach. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:26:35 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:26:35 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was supposed to go to everyone but didn't: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Harris got bashed and re-bashed in the '60s. The fact that was a Geirgia > white man didn't help. > > I guarandamntee you that when I watched Disney's "Song of the South" at the > age of about seven, it never occurred to me that anynody was parodying > anything. Uncle Remus was a great. The animals had no race. The tar baby > was made out of tar. > > Years later I read many of the original stories and found nothing > offensive. But of course, I'm disqualified as a judge in some extreme > quarters. > > The rap against the Uncle Remus stories seems to be: > > 1. As a white man, Harris was not authorized to write about black people, > even though Uncle Remus is clearly intended to be no more than an Aesop > figure. > > 2. Harris has Remus speak in dialect, which is degrading and insulting. > (When Huck Finn speaks in dialect, that's degrading and insulting too, > but only because he uses the N-word.) > > 3. Remus never protests racism. > > 4. There isn't enough racism in the stories for Remus to protest: so Harris > lies to children about the South. > > 5. Remus exists only to tell clever stories to a wealthy little white kid. > So instead of Superfly, he's just an Amos 'n Andy fantasy. > > 6. Harris dreamed up most of the stories instead of being a black man > telling authentic folk tales passed down over the centuries from Africa. > > But the point is that I never took the tar baby to be a slam at black > people. I suppose the "baby" might have been made of, I don't > know, vanilla-wafer dough instead of black tar, but then Br'er Rabbit > wouldn't have gotten quite as stuck. > > HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. All > after "Song > of the South." > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ron Butters >> Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it >> really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely >> popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? >> >> Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE >> >> ------Original Message------ >> From: Herb Stahlke >> To: >> Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 >> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news >> >> Wilson, >> >> Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story >> book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar >> baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used >> eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the >> racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been >> responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. >> >> Herb >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Wilson Gray >> > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> >> Sender:    American Dialect Society >> >> Poster:    Laurence Horn >> >> Subject:    "tar baby" in the news >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> >> >> LH >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is >> > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." >> > >> > Really? I did not know that. >> > >> > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's >> > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" >> > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely >> > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the >> > >> > _Tar-Babies_ >> > >> > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High >> > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named >> > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, >> > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play >> > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. >> > >> > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or >> > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as >> > unreal, and I ain't going for it. >> > >> > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge >> > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon >> > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny >> > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent >> > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the >> > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. >> > >> > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy >> > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation >> > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone >> > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the >> > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention >> > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. >> > >> > -- >> > -Wilson >> > ----- >> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> > -Mark Twain >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:33:35 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:33:35 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108041421.p74AtrfM025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And nobody says, "That's my narrative, and I'm sticking to it!" Yet. But it wouldn't be funny if they did, because it would be an obvious admission of craft, unlike the potentially ambiguous "story." Any guilty moron might say, "That's my story...," but only an unapologetic political operator with an advanced degree would say, "That's my narrative...." JL On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As when PR specialists or damage-control experts or criminal lawyers and > their clients meet to "decide on a narrative." > > --Charlie > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:02 AM > > > Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in > 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean > the > "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. > > In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to > some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and > hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." > > > JL > > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Garson O'Toole > > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Jonathan Lighter wrote > > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > > > > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." > > > > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not > > part of the great narrative" in 1994. > > > > New York Times > > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side > > By Martha Saxton > > Published: November 13, 1994 > > > > http://goo.gl/4PahY > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html > > > > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and > > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was > > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our > > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and > > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we > > teach. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:37:05 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:37:05 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108041402.p74AlZHo028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I recommend, "Hey! I got a question for you, asshole!" Far less irritating. On the other hand, plain "Hey! Asshole!" would just be rude. JL On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: A conundrum > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/4/2011 07:22 AM, David A. Daniel wrote: > >Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? > >Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. > >Client: Isn't that a lot? > >Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? > >DAD > > This is the same lawyer who once met a doctor at a cocktail > party. When the doctor learned he was a lawyer, the doctor said, > "may I ask you a question?" > Lawyer: Certainly. > Doctor: When I meet people at cocktail parties and they learn I am a > doctor, they often ask me to diagnose their symptoms. What should I do? > Lawyer: Give them your opinion and send a bill in the morning. > Doctor: Brilliant -- I'll do that! > So the doctor went home happy. When he opened his mail the next > morning, he found a bill from the lawyer for $200. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Aug 4 14:42:32 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:42:32 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: A<002701cc5298$cbb3b300$631b1900$@com> Message-ID: Boy, does that lawyer ever have a money-losing business model. The third question is going to be something like "What are the implications of SEC Rule 10b-5 for my business?" It's no wonder that the typical lawyer would answer the first two questions for free. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of David A. Daniel Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:22 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: A conundrum Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. Client: Isn't that a lot? Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? DAD : Re: A conundrum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- --- On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Can I ask you another question? "'Tain't funny, McGee!":-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:44:26 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:44:26 +0000 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041412.p74AtreQ025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Maybe it's a matter of synesthesia: The coldest time of night is (often) just before (or at) dawn. --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Aug 4 14:49:48 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:49:48 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: A<12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782824A245DE0@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter again. Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Perplexing Proverb A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:55:51 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:55:51 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108041416.p74EG9fS021930@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: I do like that "morbific". Seems to be begging for a contemporary extension into "morberrific!" LH On Aug 4, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: > > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. > > ... > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) > > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 15:09:25 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:09:25 +0000 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' Message-ID: Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has undergone surgical improvement." --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 15:46:04 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:46:04 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108041416.p74AlZKO028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between "infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation poisoning". But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into the recency fallacy on this one. I had to think about that expression for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are the lemmas simply too broad? VS-) PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access again in a few days. On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: > > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. > > 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with > some quality or property by immersion or infusion. > b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying > substance, or active principle, as poison, or > salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) > > � 2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to > spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, > or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) > > 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious > qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious > corruption or the germs of disease; to render > injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 > > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) > > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 15:50:59 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:50:59 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A quick look in GB gives about 100 ghits for "infected by poison", including "tenants infected by poison ivy". There is only one hit for "infected by poisoning"--and that's a 1986 translation from Russian: "badly infected by poisoning from the wire shackles" I'll look at the dates more closely when I get a chance. VS-) On 8/4/11, victor steinbok wrote: > I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd > want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there > is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different > from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between > "infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation > poisoning". But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into > the recency fallacy on this one. I had to think about that expression > for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of > the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is > inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a > stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are > closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal > or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the > bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one > be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any > kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. > Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but > then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was > obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to > the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are > the lemmas simply too broad? > > VS-) > > PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access > again in a few days. > > On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: >> >> To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. >> bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. >> >> 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with >> some quality or property by immersion or infusion. >> b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying >> substance, or active principle, as poison, or >> salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) >> >> � 2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to >> spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, >> or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) >> >> 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious >> qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious >> corruption or the germs of disease; to render >> injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 >> >> 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the >> body) with disease; to communicate a morbific >> virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; >> to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) >> >> [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or >> disease.] >> >> Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Aug 4 15:57:58 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:57:58 -0500 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <7C1C1BAC638C714AB90EA1C2F0E2F399046B5AA3@PHEXCH.stradley.com> Message-ID: paul johnson If you have to stand a night watch in the military or civilian life, it seems to go forever. On 8/4/2011 9:49 AM, Baker, John wrote: > It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its > least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter > again. Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is > closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Perplexing Proverb > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog > has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange > proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all > understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are > usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not > scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can > anyone help me to understand this? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Blunt force trauma It's better to give than to receive. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Aug 4 16:06:11 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:06:11 -0500 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: paul johnson None of us may like it, but if we have Jewish friends or even worse Jewish in-laws you don't discuss Israel. As a Gentile, you are automatically disqualified. Much the same with whites and blacks. It's hard to be civil while tiptoeing on egg shells and that's in public dialogue, in written discourse, one certainty is that someone's going to end up offended. On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > This was supposed to go to everyone but didn't: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Jonathan Lighterwrote: > >> Harris got bashed and re-bashed in the '60s. The fact that was a Geirgia >> white man didn't help. >> >> I guarandamntee you that when I watched Disney's "Song of the South" at the >> age of about seven, it never occurred to me that anynody was parodying >> anything. Uncle Remus was a great. The animals had no race. The tar baby >> was made out of tar. >> >> Years later I read many of the original stories and found nothing >> offensive. But of course, I'm disqualified as a judge in some extreme >> quarters. >> >> The rap against the Uncle Remus stories seems to be: >> >> 1. As a white man, Harris was not authorized to write about black people, >> even though Uncle Remus is clearly intended to be no more than an Aesop >> figure. >> >> 2. Harris has Remus speak in dialect, which is degrading and insulting. >> (When Huck Finn speaks in dialect, that's degrading and insulting too, >> but only because he uses the N-word.) >> >> 3. Remus never protests racism. >> >> 4. There isn't enough racism in the stories for Remus to protest: so Harris >> lies to children about the South. >> >> 5. Remus exists only to tell clever stories to a wealthy little white kid. >> So instead of Superfly, he's just an Amos 'n Andy fantasy. >> >> 6. Harris dreamed up most of the stories instead of being a black man >> telling authentic folk tales passed down over the centuries from Africa. >> >> But the point is that I never took the tar baby to be a slam at black >> people. I suppose the "baby" might have been made of, I don't >> know, vanilla-wafer dough instead of black tar, but then Br'er Rabbit >> wouldn't have gotten quite as stuck. >> >> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. All >> after "Song >> of the South." >> >> JL >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Ron Butters wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Ron Butters >>> Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it >>> really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely >>> popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? >>> >>> Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE >>> >>> ------Original Message------ >>> From: Herb Stahlke >>> To: >>> Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 >>> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news >>> >>> Wilson, >>> >>> Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story >>> book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar >>> baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used >>> eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the >>> racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been >>> responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. >>> >>> Herb >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>>> Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn >>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender:    American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster:    Laurence Horn >>>>> Subject:    "tar baby" in the news >>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >>>>> >>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >>>>> >>>>> LH >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is >>>> understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." >>>> >>>> Really? I did not know that. >>>> >>>> FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's >>>> - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" >>>> as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely >>>> referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the >>>> >>>> _Tar-Babies_ >>>> >>>> At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High >>>> student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named >>>> after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, >>>> in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play >>>> against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. >>>> >>>> That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or >>>> severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as >>>> unreal, and I ain't going for it. >>>> >>>> Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge >>>> of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon >>>> the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny >>>> papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent >>>> a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the >>>> author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. >>>> >>>> I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy >>>> of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation >>>> can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone >>>> wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the >>>> country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention >>>> to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -Wilson >>>> ----- >>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >>>> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>> -Mark Twain >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> > > -- Blunt force trauma It's better to give than to receive. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 16:41:32 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:41:32 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041450.p74AlZQm028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Baker, John wrote: > � � � It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its > least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter > again. � Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is > closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." > Is "at cock-crow" considered to be synonymous with "at dawn"? I ask because my experience is the following. My internal understanding of the word _dawn_ is that it refers to that moment in time when the horizon becomes "un-dark," so to speak. However, when I had the misfortune to be living where everybody routinely kept chickens, I was most unpleasantly surprised to discover that roosters have some sixth sense, such that they are able to intuit the instant of dawn and to begin to crow at a time when I was unable the descry upon the horizon even the least hint of what, according to my internal semantics, is "dawn." The problem for me was that it goes like this. The first rooster to see the dawn crows. Then the nearest rooster to that rooster crows, Then the next nearest. Then the next nearest, ad finitum. When that first rooster is finally unable to hear the echoing crows of his fellow roosters, he crows again. And, again, he is echoed down the line, until, finally, the point arrives at which any fool can plainly see the dawn and the crowing ceases. In my birthplace of Marshall, Texas, in the colored part of town, there was no part of any other kind of light beyond the moon and stars, once that everyone had gone to bed. My assumption is that, at one time in past, if not currently, the peasantry of Europe likewise enjoyed a somewhat-similar experience. The crowing of roosters signals the dawn. But, in point of fact, at the time that the first rooster crows, it's still pitch-fucking-black on the eastern horizon, as far as a random human eye can see. A random example from the way people looked at the dawn in the United States, as recently as 1913, taken from a WTF search in GB: "_[T]he moon had set, all was *pitchy* dark_ [precisely], except that, far in the east, just a tinge of grayness signaled the approach of dawn." And, had the author not been on the chicken-less western plains, cock-crow would long since have "signaled the *approach* of dawn. People say that "It's always darkest before the dawn" because, in fact, it so clearly is. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 17:05:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:05:04 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041558.p74AtrpC025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:57 AM, paul johnson wrote: > � � If you have to stand a night watch in the military or civilian > life, it seems to go forever. Ain't that the God's honest truth! Especially in the military, where simply quitting the job isn't an option. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 17:39:23 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:39:23 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041606.p74FHmK5030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's worse than you think, Paul. You don't have to be a gentile to get tagged as an antisemite for disagreeing with someone (even in the family) on Middle East policies. There are many subsets of expats and descendants whose filial piety does not allow others to criticize the country of their allegiance (well, as long as they align with the government ideologically). With some Russian immigrants it's the opposite--one cannot support the current government's policies without his mental capacity being questioned (Putin has now been identified with all the indiscretions of the past 90+ years). This, however, is not the case with the "tar baby". The simple rule of American politics is that you don't step into the same pile of shit that snared some of your predecessors. If it's something new, there may be some debate as to whether anyone is /legitimately/ offended (and, in some cases, e.g., the DC flap over "niggardly", the collective judgments tilts against those being offended). But the issue of "tar baby" has come up before, both during the presidential campaign and after Obama was elected. In some cases, there was no question of intended offense--just as was the case with references to watermelons, collards, fried chicken, etc. And it's been rehashed in the media enough that people should have paid attention lest they repeat the offense. And this is exactly what happened here--whether he intended to or not, the guy simply stepped into the same pile that's been disturbed before. It's a different question as to whether the /political/ discussion of this question should continue. He apologized, claimed ignorance, and, in the absence of further evidence of his offenses, the case should be dropped. But there is a collective state of victimhood on both sides that prevents this from happening. And that's not a language issue. VS-) On 8/4/11, paul johnson wrote: > None of us may like it, but if we have Jewish friends or even worse > Jewish in-laws you don't discuss Israel. As a Gentile, you are > automatically disqualified. Much the same with whites and blacks. It's > hard to be civil while tiptoeing on egg shells and that's in public > dialogue, in written discourse, one certainty is that someone's going to > end up offended. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 17:44:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:44:41 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041426.p74AlZqj030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I never took the tar baby to be a slam at black >> people. Me, neevuh. OTOH, I'm in a sufficiently-extreme quarter to believe that minstrel-show blackface is still blackface, even though its perpetrators were just ordinary Joes trying to make a buck at the expense of those who have no means of protecting themselves from exploitation. What could be more American than that? It's the Republican dream! If I take your shotgun and, purely accidentally, with absolutely no malice aforethought or otherwise intended, accidentally blow your head off, your lucky ass is still as dead as it would be, if I had plotted your murder for dekkids. OTTH, I'm shocked, SHOCKED! to discover that there is documentary evidence that someone ever felt that it was all right for the otherwise pure-as-the-driven-snow, newborn-lambly-innercent tar-baby to be co-opted as a term of opprobrium for blacks by random sheetheads. And what's the deal with the colored Spiderboy? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 18:27:14 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:27:14 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <7C1C1BAC638C714AB90EA1C2F0E2F399046B5AA3@PHEXCH.stradley.c om> Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 10:49 AM, Baker, John wrote: > It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its >least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter >again. Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is >closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." But with this definition one might have two or more dawns per night. (Multiple local minima.) Joel >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf >Of Shapiro, Fred >Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Perplexing Proverb > >A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog >has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange >proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all >understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are >usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not >scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can >anyone help me to understand this? > >Fred Shapiro > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 18:26:46 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:26:46 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041739.p74HE7ws028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:39 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > the > collective judgments tilts against those being offended As should surely be the case, here. But I often find myself behind the curve, non-distinct from the most blatant racist. E.g., I've never been able to see how it could be the case that it should have come to be the case that referring to people of East-Asians descent as "Orientals" should suddenly be perceived as a supposed insult, after dekkids of dekkids of ordinary use. Of course, what such people should be called is of no real concern to me. However, that I found having to make this very trivial semantic shift to be a gigantic, how-can-"Oriental"-possibly-be-construed-as-some-kind-of-insult-by-those-people?-why-I've-been-using-it-all-my-life-without-the-least-intent-to-insult-anyone! pain in the ass puts me on the same level as any other casual racist-in-the-broad-sense. But, it wasn't *my* ox that was being gored. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 18:35:57 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:35:57 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041827.p74Atr4A025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > two or more dawns per > night. � (Multiple _local_ minima.) Is that not, in fact, the case? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 18:41:18 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:41:18 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 11:46 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd >want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there >is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different >from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between >"infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation >poisoning". "Infected with the "... Spirit" belongs to one of the later, less literal/physical/medical senses (4b and ff.) that I omitted. >But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into >the recency fallacy on this one. My guess. But I agree that if someone says "I've been infected", I look for horses, not zebras (germs, not radioactivity). >I had to think about that expression >for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of >the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is >inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a >stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are >closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal >or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the >bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one >be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any >kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. To me the distinction is that both germs and radiation are "agents" that can "infect", whereas headache, stroke, broken bones are agent-unknown. Although some possibly might say things like "infected [by an ear-wig] with a headache", when an agent is hypothesized. >Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but >then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was >obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to >the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are >the lemmas simply too broad? Perhaps the meaning (of 1b, 2, and 3) has re-broadened, or perhaps they have not been looked at more recently than 1853, 1693, and 1885 respectively. Joel >VS-) > >PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access >again in a few days. > >On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: > > > > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. > > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. > > > > 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with > > some quality or property by immersion or infusion. > > b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying > > substance, or active principle, as poison, or > > salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) > > > > †2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to > > spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, > > or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) > > > > 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious > > qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious > > corruption or the germs of disease; to render > > injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 > > > > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the > > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific > > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; > > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) > > > > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] > > > > Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 18:50:02 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:50:02 -0400 Subject: "Early-Bird[ Reservation]s Almost Sold _Through_." Message-ID: Shouldn't that be, "Sold _Out_" ? >From an ad for a conference to be held in L.A. and sponsored by an American technology publication. They must have outsourced their pr's, then had the resulting copy grammar-checked by a computer. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:14:58 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:14:58 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108041841.p74FHm0R030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Below is an excerpt from an article about civil defense in 1962 aimed at the general public. During a Q & A the author says that one cannot be infected by radiation. The word "infect" was in use before the germ theory of disease was propounded and accepted. The multiple senses of infect have changed over time and have been influenced by scientific thought, I think. The example from 1985 below shows that the writer does believe an individual can be "infected by radiation" in the domain of comic books. Cite: 1962 November 22, Bladen Journal, Civil Defense In Bladen by Captain Ted Fox, Page 4, Column 4, Elizabethtown, North, Carolina. (Google News Archive) Q. If I have been infected by radiation, can I give it to my children? A. No. It is not a disease. It doesn't "infect" anybody. The gamma rays damage the person through which they pass – no one else. Cite: 1985 October 4, Milwaukee Sentinel, TV Today: Remake Of 'Long Hot Summer' Sizzles by Duane Dudek, Part 3, Page 2, GNA Page 25, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (Google News Archive) The X-Men and the Fantastic Four remain vivid, tales of normal folks infected by radiation and afflicted with super and paranormal powers. On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: � � � Re: infected by radiation poisoning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/4/2011 11:46 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> >>I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd >>want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there >>is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different >>from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between >>"infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation >>poisoning". > > "Infected with the "... Spirit" belongs to one of > the later, less literal/physical/medical senses (4b and ff.) that I omitted. > >>But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into >>the recency fallacy on this one. > > My guess. � But I agree that if someone says "I've > been infected", I look for horses, not zebras (germs, not radioactivity). > >>I had to think about that expression >>for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of >>the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is >>inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a >>stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are >>closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal >>or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the >>bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one >>be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any >>kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. > > To me the distinction is that both germs and > radiation are "agents" that can "infect", whereas > headache, stroke, broken bones are > agent-unknown. � Although some possibly might say > things like "infected [by an ear-wig] with a > headache", when an agent is hypothesized. > >>Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but >>then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was >>obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to >>the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are >>the lemmas simply too broad? > > Perhaps the meaning (of 1b, 2, and 3) has > re-broadened, or perhaps they have not been > looked at more recently than 1853, 1693, and 1885 respectively. > > Joel > > >>VS-) >> >>PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access >>again in a few days. >> >>On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> > >> > Seems like an old and honored sense. � From the OED: >> > >> > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. >> > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. >> > >> > � 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with >> > some quality or property by immersion or infusion. >> > b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying >> > substance, or active principle, as poison, or >> > salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. � (1550 through 1853) >> > >> > �To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to >> > spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, >> > or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. � (1440 through 1693) >> > >> > 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious >> > qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious >> > corruption or the germs of disease; to render >> > injurious to health. � [I.e., not only with germs.] � (1480 through 1885 >> > >> > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the >> > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific >> > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; >> > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. � (c1386 through 1845) >> > >> > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] >> > >> > Joel >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:15:09 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:15:09 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041412.p74AlZJO028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My WAG: the original proverb was "Dark is the hour before the dawn". "Dark is" was misheard as "darkest", and the proverb was miscommunicated to fit "darkest". Scanning GB, it is around 1850 that the phrase begins to be used to represent periods preceding momentous change: Aunt Anne's History of England on Christian principles - Page 138 Anne (aunt, pseud.) - 1849 - Free Google eBook - Read "But the times of which I have been writing have been justly called the dark ages of England ; it was indeed that dark hour before the dawn of the bright day of the Reformation" DanG On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Perplexing Proverb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:33:10 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:33:10 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041827.p74HE74s028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson, nobody in his right mins could disagree with your charaterization of minstrel shows. But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me forty years ago. I have to assume that whatever his deepest private feelings about race may have been (and they were undoubtedly not up to current snuff), when his stories appeared in the 1880s and after, they were generally thought of as progressive: races and classes united through stories told by a shrewd, affable but hardly clownish slave. And to the extent that they were versions of genuine African-American folktales, they proved that said folktales were as intelligent and meaningful as any of the European persuasion. The white kid in the stories was an idealized JCH himself. Sentimental? Simplistic? What in popular culture isn't? Just showing off for a moment: _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ painted so heart-rending a picture of slavery that Lincoln said he thought Harriet Beecher Stowe could have started the Civil War all by herself. When I was in high school, however, it was dismissed as sentimental trash. When I was in college, it was doubly sentimental trash because written by an unauthorized and obviously clueless white woman. Ten years later, it was a key document of the American canon, because it effectively, passionately, denounced slavery and was written by a brilliantly perceptive white woman. My point about Harris isn't that he was a second Mark Twain (one of his many friends, BTW) or that Uncle Remus is a compleat literary figure; only that it's as overdetermined to find evil in Uncle Remus as it is to find it in _Huckleberry Finn_. Or, as Mad magazine once paraphrased the motto in a different context entirely, "Honey, why did you swat Mel in the pants"? JL On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:39 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > the > > collective judgments tilts against those being offended > > As should surely be the case, here. > > But I often find myself behind the curve, non-distinct from the most > blatant racist. E.g., I've never been able to see how it could be the > case that it should have come to be the case that referring to people > of East-Asians descent as "Orientals" should suddenly be perceived as > a supposed insult, after dekkids of dekkids of ordinary use. > > Of course, what such people should be called is of no real concern to > me. However, that I found having to make this very trivial semantic > shift to be a gigantic, > > how-can-"Oriental"-possibly-be-construed-as-some-kind-of-insult-by-those-people?-why-I've-been-using-it-all-my-life-without-the-least-intent-to-insult-anyone! > pain in the ass puts me on the same level as any other casual > racist-in-the-broad-sense. > > But, it wasn't *my* ox that was being gored. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:50:37 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:50:37 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108041437.p74AlZNe028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I recommend, > > "Hey! I got a question for you, asshole!" > > Far less irritating. On the other hand, plain "Hey! Asshole!" would just be > rude. Unfortunately, attempting to be polite by asking permission to ask a question necessarily entails asking a question before permission to ask a question can be granted. What's a mother(fucker) to do? A friend has suggested following the example of German and _stating_ that "What I would like to ask is whether I may ask a question. Unfortunately, this friend also prescriptively wishes to exclude _can I?_ from the conversation on "logical" grounds, since only The Shadow knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 4 19:55:03 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:55:03 -0700 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108041951.p74AtrFg025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> I recommend, >> >> "Hey! I got a question for you, asshole!" >> >> Far less irritating. On the other hand, plain "Hey! Asshole!" would just be >> rude. > > Unfortunately, attempting to be polite by asking permission to ask a > question necessarily entails asking a question before permission to > ask a question can be granted. > > What's a mother(fucker) to do? Just like "How are you?" is not a question about your interlocutor's health, so "May I ask a question?" should be interpreted as a means of easing social interactions. This also obviates the need for cussing. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 20:04:42 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:04:42 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041933.p74AtrEq025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me forty > years ago. IMO, Harris's stories are _still_ absolutely harmless, WRT their intended audience. Always have been. Always will be. Harris probably had not the least idea that slaves would ever read anything at all, let alone his very audience-specific work. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 20:13:59 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:13:59 -0400 Subject: Two books of possible interest In-Reply-To: <201108031817.p73AlkXn031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another of possible interest: Easy Bukharian : Language of the Bukharian Jews : Study Guide by Imanuel Rybakov Country: USA, Language: English New York: The Association of the Bukharian Jewish Youth of the USA Achdut-Unity, 2011. 250 p. ISBN: 9781936755004 -- -Wilson Gray ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: � � � Two books of possible interest > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I pass along the following announcement fyi. � The first book has several items pertaining to English etymology and the second one may be of interest to onomasticians. > > Incidentally, I have no financial interest in either item. > > G. Cohen > > ________________________________ > > From: jewish-languages at googlegroups.com on behalf of Sarah Benor > Sent: Tue 8/2/2011 2:20 PM > To: JEWISH LANGUAGES > Subject: [Jewish Languages] Fwd: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST > > > Dear JL list, > David Gold asked me to forward this annoucement. > Sarah > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Gold > Date: Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 7:49 AM > Subject: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST > > > > � � The Press of the University of Alicante announces the publication of David L. Gold's Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Slavic, and Romance Languages). Enclosed is an attachment which gives details about the book as well as about Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography, of which he is the editor. > > > > Two Books of Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Linguistic Interest > > > > Gold, David L. 2009. Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Languages) / Selected and Edited, with a Foreword, by Félix Rodríguez González and Antonio Lillo Buades. Alicante. Publicaciones de la Universidad de Alicante. 870 pages. ISBN 978-84-7908-517-9. > > > > � � � � � � Dictionaries usually give only brief treatment to etymologies and even etymological dictionaries often do not lavish on them the attention they deserve. To help fill the gap, the author deals in depth with several etymologically problematic words in various Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic languages, all of which have hitherto either been misetymologized or not etymologized at all (the three most detailed chapters - 14, 16, and 31 - are respectively 104, 130, and 134 pages long). Sometimes, he succeeds in cracking the nut; sometimes, he is able only to clear away misunderstanding; but always he endeavors to set the stage for further serious treatment, as in the several chapters disproving or doubting a Yiddish or Hebrew origin for certain English lexemes. > > Usually, the author marshals not only linguistic but also historical and cultural information, his approach thus being both linguistic and philological. He deals too with etiology, an often essential but not infrequently neglected component of etymological research. For example, dictionaries in all languages that include a lexeme translating literally as 'Molotov cocktail' not only misetymologize it but also either fail to etiologize it (why does it commemorate Vyatsheslav Mikhailovitsh Molotov?) or misetiologize it. Chapter 10 (42 pages), based in part on an examination of relevant Finnish military terms and other Finnish sources, presents, for the first time, the right etymology and the right etiology. > > Since this book, which consists of thirty studies in English and one in romanized Yiddish, discusses methodology (notably in chapter 11 but also in most others), it has the makings of an introduction to the science, art, and craft of etymology. > > The titles of the studies are: > > > > � � � � � � 1. The Alleged Russian Origin of French bistro ~ bistrot 'wine merchant; public house' Versus Its Probable Ultimate Origin in Vulgar Latin or Gallo-Romance (On the Persistence of a Folk Etymology and Folk Etiology Despite the Suggestion of Better Etymologies) > > � � � � � � 2. The Origin of Chicano Spanish blanquillo 'testicle' (On How Emulated Dyosemy Can Defeat the Purpose of a Euphemism) > > � � � � � � 3. The British English Origin of Informal Israeli Hebrew braso > > � � � � � � 4. American English Slang copacetic 'fine, all right' Has No Hebrew, Yiddish, or Other Jewish Connection > > � � � � � � 5. The American English Slangism fink Probably Has No Jewish Connection > > � � � � � � 6. Definite and Possible English Reflexes of Spanish garbanzo 'chickpea' > > � � � � � � 7. Originally American English glitz, glitz up, and glitzy Probably Have No Yiddish Connection > > � � � � � � 8. Towards a Dossier on the Still Unclear Immediate Etymon(s?) of American English Slang hooker 'whore' (With Remarks on the Origin of American English Barnegat, Dixie, fly ~ vlei ~ vley ~ vlaie ~ vly, Gramercy Park, Hell Gate, jazz, sloughter, and Spuyten Duyvil) > > � � � � � � 9. American English jitney 'five-cent coin; sum of five cents' Has No Apparent Jewish or Russian Connection and May Come from (Black?) Louisiana French jetnée (On the Increasing Difficulty of Harvesting All the Grain) > > � � � � � � 10. Etymology and Etiology in the Study of Eponymous Lexemes: The Case of English Molotov cocktail and Finnish Molotovin koktaili > > � � � � � � 11. Nine Criteria for Assessing the Likelihood of Yiddish Influence on English (With Examples) > > � � � � � � 12. English paparazzo < Italian paparazzo = Commonization of the Label Name Paparazzo (in Federico Fellini's La Dolce Vita) < ? > > � � � � � � 13. New York City English parky 'park-keeper' Is Probably a Spontaneous Coinage Rather than a Borrowing from British English > > � � � � � � 14. When Chauvinism Interferes in Etymological Research: A Few Observations on the Supposed Vulgar Latin Derivation of Rumanian pastrama ~ pastrama, a Noun of Immediate Turkish Origin (With Preliminary Remarks on Related Words in Albanian, Arabic, Armenian, English, French, Greek, Hebrew, Judezmo, Polish, Russian, SerboCroatian, Spanish, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Yiddish) > > � � � � � � 15. An Immediate or Non-Immediate Jewish Connection for Dutch poeha and Variants (> Afrikaans bohaai > South African English bohaai), French brouhaha (> English brouhaha), French Brou, brou, ha, ha, Brou, ha, ha, High German buhai and Variants, Low German buhê and Variants, or Modern West Frisian bahey and Variants Has Not Been Proven (With Remarks on the Jewish Italian or Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Arezzo Dialectal barruccaba and the Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Italian badanai) > > � � � � � � 16. Mexican Spanish sarape ~ zarape (Whence American English sarape ~ serape ~ serapi ~ zarape and French sarapé ~ sérapé), a Word Possibly from Tarascan /'charakwa/, Probably Has No Jewish or Iranian Connection > > � � � � � � 17. Is Slang American English schnook ~ shnook 'pitifully meek person' from Informal High German Schnuck' 'a kind of small sheep', Northeastern Yiddish shnuk '[elephant's] trunk; snout [of other animals]', or Plattduetsch Schnück 'snail'? > > � � � � � � 18. Whence American English scrod and Grimsby English scrob? > > � � � � � � 19. Does American English shack 'shanty' Come From One or More Uto-Aztecan Languages of the American Plains? > > � � � � � � 20. The Etymology of English spiel and spieler and Scots English bonspiel > > � � � � � � 21. English Star Chamber Has No Jewish Connection > > � � � � � � 22. Who Can Decipher (Yiddish?) *"bashtem" and (Yiddish?) *"ghop bagi"? > > � � � � � � 23. The (Solely Southeastern?) Yiddish Cloth Name taniklot and the Rare American English Baking Term poolish 'leaven, starter, starter dough' > > � � � � � � 24. An Instance of Convergence: Frisian witte and Yiddish mideye > > � � � � � 25. A Few English Words Misattributed to Yiddish (finagle, finical, finick, toco, trantle, and trantlum); a Yiddish-Origin English Word Misetymologized for at Least Sixty-One Years (bopkes); a Misetymologized Yiddish Pen Name (shmul niger); and a Misetymologized Eastern Yiddish Word (yavne-veyasne!) > > � � � � � � 26. Etymological and Sociolinguistic Notes of Czech and Jewish or Possible Jewish Interest (On Czech fizl, frajle, hajzl, Híra, ketas, mecheche, misuge ~ misuke, Nabuchodonozor ~ Nabukadnezar, pajzl, pejzy, smelina, smelinár, smok; Yiddish di alt-naye shul, peyem ~ peym; Olomouc in Yiddish Lexemes; Franz Kafka's Early Linguistic History; and the Investigation of Yiddish in Bohemia and Moravia) > > � � � � � � 27. On the Probable Kenaanic Origin of Two Eastern Yiddish Kin Terms, zeyde 'grandfather' and bobe 'grandmother' > > � � � � � � 28. Zinfandel: An American English Grape and Wine Name of Immediate Hungarian, Moravian Czech, and/or Slovak Origin (On How the Origin of a Significans Need Not Be Parallel to the Origin of the Corresponding Significatum) > > � � � � � � 29. Nokh a por dugmes fun der yidisher hashpoe af ivrit > > � � � � � � 30. Some More Israeli Hebrew Items of German Origin > > � � � � � � 31. Jewish Dickensiana, Part One: Despite Popular Belief, the Name Fagin in Charles Dickens's Oliver Twist Has No Jewish Connection (With Appendixes on Some Laws Concerning Personal Names and on Dickens's Authentic Yiddish Name) > > > > *** > > > > Since prices may change, none is indicated below. 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Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography. Edited by David L. Gold. Leiden. Brill. x + 245 pp. ISBN 90 04 12189 7. > > > > Brill Academic Publishers > > Plantijnstraat 2 > > Postbus 9000 > > NL-2300 PA Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > http://www.brill.nl/catalogue/productinfo.asp?product=9681 > > > > > > *** > > > > > > If you have any problem ordering either book or if you want to get a notice of > > > > D.L.G.'s next publication, please send a message to: > > > > dovedleyzer at yahoo.com > > > > (Notices of new publications will no longer be sent by postal mail.) > > -- > Jewish Languages > http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-languages/ > To post: send a message to jewish-languages at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe: send a blank message to jewish-languages+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 20:24:58 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:24:58 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 3:15 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > My WAG: the original proverb was "Dark is the hour before the dawn". > "Dark is" was misheard as "darkest", and the proverb was > miscommunicated to fit "darkest". > > Scanning GB, it is around 1850 that the phrase begins to be used to > represent periods preceding momentous change: Maybe, but I was struck by one citing of the proverb in something like the modern form by one of the officers fighting for the Revolutionary cause in 1776. (McCullough includes a lot of quotes from letters of officers and soldiers to their friends or families.) Unfortunately when I heard this a few weeks ago on the audiobook of David McCullough's _1776_, a chronicle of the downs and ups of that year, it was prior to the current thread, so I didn't record who said it, but the *when* was, in fact, 1776, and it was used precisely to refer to the hoped-for (and eventually achieved) "momentous change" in the fight for independence (or "independency", as it seems to have mostly been called at the time). LH > > Aunt Anne's History of England on Christian principles - Page 138 > Anne (aunt, pseud.) - 1849 - Free Google eBook - Read > "But the times of which I have been writing have been justly called > the dark ages of England ; it was indeed that dark hour before the > dawn of the bright day of the Reformation" > > DanG > > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Perplexing Proverb >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 20:26:26 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:26:26 +0000 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041444.p74AlZxD030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If the old lamplighter put the lights out at midnight, then early morning is darker than late evening. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: Perplexing Proverb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe it's a matter of synesthesia: The coldest time of night is (often) just before (or at) dawn. > > --Charlie > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 21:03:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: "... which of these two hypotheses is more _nearly_ correct ..." Message-ID: That's the format that had to be used in order to pass tests, in my grade-school and high-school years, given that _correct_ is an absolute: X is correct; otherwise, X is necessarily incorrect. Logically, nothing can be _more_ correct than _correct_. However, IME, examples of the prescribed syntagm in the wild have always been hard to find. Of course, the use of _more_ and not _most_ in this environment is also prescribed. This find is museum-worthy!;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 21:40:59 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 17:40:59 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108042005.p74HE7PM028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just to be clear we are talking about the same thing--the "Noble savage" stories were absolutely harmless at the time they were written. One hundred and fifty years later they don't look so harmless any more, although no one faults the AUTHORS for writing them /at that time/. Little Black Sambo has met an unfortunate literary faith long after it was written. Books called Nappy, Nappy Hair, Happy to Be Nappy, I Can Do My Own Nappy Hair, and Nappy Hair 101 were all written by African American authors, mostly about their own hair. But when one of the children's books showed up on the reading list in NYC, a number of parents--and some activists--were offended and made a big stink (chances are that the book was included precisely for multicultural reasons, so it's one PC faction fighting against another). So there is a question of who should be sensitive to what, when and why. I suspect that referring to the first black President as the "Tar-Baby" is not the most intelligent thing to do even if no offense is intended. In March, 2007, McCain apologized for his use of "tar-baby"--three years earlier, Kerry did not have to, as he was not referring to people. I don't remember what happened when Romney used it in reference to the Big Dig in 2006. But Colorado Springs is a different world, although it's not quite South Carolina. Apparently they never heard of these incidents in those parts. But there is also something to be said about the current anti-PC sentiment running on the right, where activists--and sometimes politicians--try to push the envelope on certain expressions just to see the reaction of the PC crowd. In common parlance, they are trying to make PC "heads explode". If they get caught and they get swamped by the tide, they figure they can just apologize. Most of the time, they just pretend that the comment is taken out of context. I am not sure what to make of this in Lamborn's case. He has not been the most skillful user of polite language. In 2007 he got into hot water when a Christian conservative couple wrote a letter to the editor of a local newspaper, complaining about Lamborn voting against an anti-dog-fighting law. "It prompted Lamborn to call the Barthas personally, leaving a message that said, '[T]here are consequences to this kind of thing, but I would like to work with you in a way that is best for everyone here concerned.' Shortly thereafter, Lamborn left another message in which he said, 'I'd rather resolve this on a Scriptural level but if you are unwilling to do that I will be forced to take other steps, which I would rather not have to do.' " VS-) On 8/4/11, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me >> forty >> years ago. > > IMO, Harris's stories are _still_ absolutely harmless, WRT their > intended audience. Always have been. Always will be. Harris probably > had not the least idea that slaves would ever read anything at all, > let alone his very audience-specific work. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Thu Aug 4 22:05:17 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:05:17 -0700 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" Message-ID: Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) You're the best listener that I've ever met You're my best friend Best friend with benefits What took me so long ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Aug 4 22:05:25 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:05:25 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: If you look back to Chandler's originals, e.g., Uncle Remus, His Songs and His Sayings, http://books.google.com/books?id=Sw4ZAAAAYAAJ, or Uncle Remus and His Friends, http://books.google.com/books?id=6d9DAAAAYAAJ, Uncle Remus's animal stories are as free of racism as anyone could ask (unless you are bothered, as we may be but Chandler's readers were not, by the extensive use of dialect), but many of the other stories reflect the perspective we would expect in 19th century humorous writings featuring an ex-slave. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of victor steinbok Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 5:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news Just to be clear we are talking about the same thing--the "Noble savage" stories were absolutely harmless at the time they were written. One hundred and fifty years later they don't look so harmless any more, although no one faults the AUTHORS for writing them /at that time/. Little Black Sambo has met an unfortunate literary faith long after it was written. Books called Nappy, Nappy Hair, Happy to Be Nappy, I Can Do My Own Nappy Hair, and Nappy Hair 101 were all written by African American authors, mostly about their own hair. But when one of the children's books showed up on the reading list in NYC, a number of parents--and some activists--were offended and made a big stink (chances are that the book was included precisely for multicultural reasons, so it's one PC faction fighting against another). So there is a question of who should be sensitive to what, when and why. I suspect that referring to the first black President as the "Tar-Baby" is not the most intelligent thing to do even if no offense is intended. In March, 2007, McCain apologized for his use of "tar-baby"--three years earlier, Kerry did not have to, as he was not referring to people. I don't remember what happened when Romney used it in reference to the Big Dig in 2006. But Colorado Springs is a different world, although it's not quite South Carolina. Apparently they never heard of these incidents in those parts. But there is also something to be said about the current anti-PC sentiment running on the right, where activists--and sometimes politicians--try to push the envelope on certain expressions just to see the reaction of the PC crowd. In common parlance, they are trying to make PC "heads explode". If they get caught and they get swamped by the tide, they figure they can just apologize. Most of the time, they just pretend that the comment is taken out of context. I am not sure what to make of this in Lamborn's case. He has not been the most skillful user of polite language. In 2007 he got into hot water when a Christian conservative couple wrote a letter to the editor of a local newspaper, complaining about Lamborn voting against an anti-dog-fighting law. "It prompted Lamborn to call the Barthas personally, leaving a message that said, '[T]here are consequences to this kind of thing, but I would like to work with you in a way that is best for everyone here concerned.' Shortly thereafter, Lamborn left another message in which he said, 'I'd rather resolve this on a Scriptural level but if you are unwilling to do that I will be forced to take other steps, which I would rather not have to do.' " VS-) On 8/4/11, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me >> forty >> years ago. > > IMO, Harris's stories are _still_ absolutely harmless, WRT their > intended audience. Always have been. Always will be. Harris probably > had not the least idea that slaves would ever read anything at all, > let alone his very audience-specific work. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 22:09:24 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:09:24 -0400 Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) Message-ID: In June there was a discussion on this list about the fable/proverb concerning a lion and a gazelle. Here is a link to the initiating post in the archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;7fbbbcef.1106D Based on the content of some past messages there are some SF fans on the list who might have access to Analog magazine in 1986. I am trying to verify a citation that contains a variant of the proverb with an antelope, and it is difficult to find the appropriate issues in a library. Two matches in Google Books give conflicting information, but both matches indicate that the text below is supposed to appear on page 36 in an issue dated 1986: A lion wakes up each morning thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the slowest antelope." An antelope wakes up thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the fastest lion." A human wakes up thinking, "To hell with who's fastest, I'll outlast the bastards." I am trying to construct a full citation. Here is the conflicting information from GB: Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 79, Issues 4-6 Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 106, Issues 7-9 Here is a link into Google Books: http://goo.gl/bXSd6 http://books.google.com/books?id=DrEnAQAAIAAJ&q=%22antelope+wakes%22#search_anchor If a list member can find this quotation in Analog magazine and send me (or the list) the cite information that would be very kind. Knowing the name of the article and the author would be helpful. (Scans would be perfect if it is easy for you to create them, but providing the citation data by itself would be great. [Scans cannot be sent to the list, of course]) Thanks, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Aug 4 22:23:19 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:23:19 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108042205.p74AtrNC025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. Neal On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Brian Hitchcock > Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) > > > > You're the best listener that I've ever met > You're my best friend > Best friend with benefits > What took me so long > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 4 23:12:19 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:12:19 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron Butters did not write what Wilson says he wrote. Ron Butters wrote I was questioning the seeming assertion that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people who wanted to read stories that belitted black people. I don't think Wilson and I have any disagreement about Harris's imagined audience. Harris was writing for a literate late-19th-Century audience (among whom would certainly have been people of color). His purpose was not to belittle or to cater to those who might have wanted to belittle. So why is Wilson so angry? On Aug 4, 2011, at 5:39 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >> _the seeming assertion_ that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people > > Rather, it is the _intended_ assertion. > > What other potential audience was there, when Harris wrote? > > However, I personally doubt that Harris's intended audience was > wasting psychic energy, whether positive or negative, on the question > of the belittling of a subgroup in which it was not necessary for that > audience to have any interest whatsoever. > > My WAG is that, if he did give a thought to that question, he would > have concluded only that his readership was seeking entertainment. > > And, of course, would anyone wish to claim that any white person has > ever written anything with the delectation of black people as his sole > motive or even as one of his motives? > > When the NYT BR or whatever notes that a work is intended "for a > general audience," does anyone ever think, > > Oh! This author wants black people to be able to read this book and > find it enjoyable and a worthy addition to their personal libraries, > too! How white of him! > > It is precisely the desire to cater to the taste of the colored > population that provides motivation for authors such as Herrnstein and > Murray, no doubt. > > My WAG is, "Probably not." > > Of course, > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 23:57:17 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:57:17 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not knowing the song, I was wondering whether the parsing at the time was [best friend] [with benefits] or {best [friend with benefits]]. Maybe it's hard to tell. LH On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. > > Neal > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Brian Hitchcock >> Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) >> >> >> >> You're the best listener that I've ever met >> You're my best friend >> Best friend with benefits >> What took me so long >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Aug 5 00:02:41 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 00:02:41 +0000 Subject: "P.S." Message-ID: My 8-year-old grandson has been with me for a couple of days. He's a talkative little boy, and on several occasions he as followed a statement with "P.S."--then a further statement. It is not remarkable that he should be vocalizing a "script," but I don't know how he could know about the use of "P.S." itself. --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 00:34:21 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:34:21 -0400 Subject: Caption: Message-ID: "Miley Cyrus _Bikinis_ in Michigan" over a photo of Ms. Cyrus dressed in "a teeny brown bikini." "(to) wear a bikini" --> _(to) bikini_ Seems reasonable. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 00:49:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:49:13 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108042312.p74AtrOg025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yours is certainly a reasoned reply, Ron. That evening of riotous fun at The Bacchae is still on! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Ronald Butters > Subject: � � � Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ron Butters did not write what Wilson says he wrote. Ron Butters wrote > > I � was questioning the seeming assertion that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people who wanted to read stories that belitted black people. > > I don't think Wilson and I have any disagreement about Harris's imagined audience. Harris was writing for a literate late-19th-Century audience (among whom would certainly have been people of color). His purpose was not to belittle or to cater to those who might have wanted to belittle. So why is Wilson so angry? > > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 5:39 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >>> _the seeming assertion_ that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people >> >> Rather, it is the _intended_ assertion. >> >> What other potential audience was there, when Harris wrote? >> >> However, I personally doubt that Harris's intended audience was >> wasting psychic energy, whether positive or negative, on the question >> of the belittling of a subgroup in which it was not necessary for that >> audience to have any interest whatsoever. >> >> My WAG is that, if he did give a thought to that question, he would >> have concluded only that his readership was seeking entertainment. >> >> And, of course, would anyone wish to claim that any white person has >> ever written anything with the delectation of black people as his sole >> motive or even as one of his motives? >> >> When the NYT BR or whatever notes that a work is intended "for a >> general audience," does anyone ever think, >> >> Oh! This author wants black people to be able to read this book and >> find it enjoyable and a worthy addition to their personal libraries, >> too! How white of him! >> >> It is precisely the desire to cater to the taste of the colored >> population that provides motivation for authors such as Herrnstein and >> Murray, no doubt. >> >> My WAG is, "Probably not." >> >> Of course, >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 00:51:40 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:51:40 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 03:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me forty >years ago. ... Just showing off for a moment: _Uncle Tom's >Cabin_ I think "Little Black Sambo" has a similar history of criticism to these two. On the other hand, and although I had perhaps no acquaintance with Harris's stories as a child, at some point in my aging I did come to understand "tar baby" as a derogatory term for a Negro child. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 01:24:27 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:24:27 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041412.p74AlZJO028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog > has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb > "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of > the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying > commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest > just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. Language Log discussion here: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1764 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 01:34:57 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:34:57 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108041433.p74AtrgY025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think you are overstating the cynicism in its current usage. I was watching TV yesterday, and heard it used on the program "Necessary Roughness" to mean something close to 'my story', as something one will tell others about an incident. DanG On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And nobody says, "That's my narrative, and I'm sticking to it!" > > Yet. But it wouldn't be funny if they did, because it would be an obvious > admission of craft, unlike the potentially ambiguous "story." Any guilty > moron might say, "That's my story...," but only an > unapologetic political operator with an advanced degree would say, "That's > my narrative...." > > JL > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Charles C Doyle >> Subject: Re: narrative; graphic >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> As when PR specialists or damage-control experts or criminal lawyers and >> their clients meet to "decide on a narrative." >> >> --Charlie >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of >> Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:02 AM >> >> >> Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in >> 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean >> the >> "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. >> >> In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to >> some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and >> hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." >> >> >> JL >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole > >wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Garson O'Toole >> > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Jonathan Lighter wrote >> > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: >> > > >> > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our >> > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the >> > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." >> > >> > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not >> > part of the great narrative" in 1994. >> > >> > New York Times >> > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side >> > By Martha Saxton >> > Published: November 13, 1994 >> > >> > http://goo.gl/4PahY >> > >> > >> http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html >> > >> > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and >> > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was >> > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our >> > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and >> > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we >> > teach. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 01:54:26 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:54:26 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog >> has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb >> "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of >> the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying >> commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest >> just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it > resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to > be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. > > Language Log discussion here: > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1764 > Actually the links (especially with reference to the Goltz studies reported in Beitrage zur Lehre von den Functionen der Nervencentren des Frosches; Berlin: August Hirschwald, 1869) make it clear that a frog will indeed allow itself to be boiled when placed in a pot of gradually heated water, IF (and apparently only if) it is a decerebrated frog. And decerebrated frogs probably have an equally hard time figuring out whether or not it's darkest just before the dawn. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 02:26:33 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 22:26:33 -0400 Subject: Metaphor: Heating water slowly to kill a frog (was Perplexing Proverb) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer wrote: >> Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it >> resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to >> be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. I do not think that the truth or falsity of the "frog in hot water" anecdote has been ascertained. Have modern researchers actually attempted to replicate or debunk the earlier research that heated water at a very slow rate? Wikipedia is of course not a reliable reference, but volunteer editors have uncovered some intriguing citations to research performed in the 1800s. The entry on "Boiling frog" is worth examining: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog Here is excerpt from and pointer to a volume in 1897 titled "The New Psychology" by E. W. Scripture: A similar experiment showed that a live frog can actually be boiled without a movement if the water is heated slowly enough; in one experiment the temperature was raised at the rate of 0.0020 [degrees] C per second, and the frog was found dead at the end of 2 1/2 hours without having moved. http://books.google.com/books?id=fGA1AQAAIAAJ&q=dead#v=snippet& The Wikipedia entry includes a statement by a modern scientist that dismisses the anecdote based on experiments that increased the temperature at a considerably faster rate. Snopes has an article that was updated in 2009 that claims the anecdote is false, but it seems to rely on a scientist describing an experiment in which the water is heated at a rate of "2 degrees Fahrenheit per minute." http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp Is more known now about the truth of this metaphor? On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Perplexing Proverb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>>=20 >>> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics = > blog >>> has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange = > proverb >>> "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand = > the point of >>> the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an = > underlying >>> commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that = > it's always darkest >>> just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? >>=20 >> Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it >> resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to >> be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. >>=20 >> Language Log discussion here: >> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D1764 >>=20 > Actually the links (especially with reference to the Goltz studies = > reported in Beitrage zur Lehre von den Functionen der Nervencentren des = > Frosches; Berlin: August Hirschwald, 1869) make it clear that a frog = > will indeed allow itself to be boiled when placed in a pot of gradually = > heated water, IF (and apparently only if) it is a decerebrated frog. = > And decerebrated frogs probably have an equally hard time figuring out = > whether or not it's darkest just before the dawn. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Aug 5 03:40:34 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:40:34 -0700 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108050134.p7506iSe025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog >> has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb >> "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of >> the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying >> commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest >> just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it > resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to > be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. > > Language Log discussion here: > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1764 and some here: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/boiling-a-frog-past-the-tipping-point/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Fri Aug 5 03:53:20 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 23:53:20 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS Message-ID: I went to the library today to find these exx., but volumes I and II didn't go up to the "T"s. And if I recall correctly from other discussions here, volume III is unpublished. Could you share these unpublished examples? Also, I wonder how much Toni Morrison's 1981 book by this name has affected the perception of "tar baby". Neal > On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. >>> All >>> after "Song >>> of the South." >>> >>> JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 08:24:10 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 04:24:10 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108042357.p74AtrPs025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A young person at work played this album for me when it first came out. Its release was 1995, not 1992. I suppose she could have written the song earlier than 1995. I haven't listened to the song in a while, but I took the meaning as [best friend] and the kicker [with benefits]. I should listen to it again. However, from an interview of hers I read years ago, the alternative {best [friend with benefits]} is also plausible: She stated that her and her band members were having a contest to see who could have the most sex while they were on tour. (I'll have to look for the interview when I'm on a less-restricted computer). I think it may have appeared in "Acoustic Guitar". Very good songwriting IMHO. She is certainly talented enough to coin this phrase. I tried a little searching on Google for the phrase, but the bandwidth is clogged with info about the current, similarly-titled movie "Friends with Benefits". I tried minusing out "film" and "movie", but it's still quite a popular phrase. Any ideas on how to search for early occurrences of the phrase? Eric On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Not knowing the song, I was wondering whether the parsing at the time was > [best friend] [with benefits] or {best [friend with benefits]]. Maybe it's > hard to tell. > > LH > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > > In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a > pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered > if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. > > > > Neal > > > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock > wrote: > > > >> Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) > >> > >> You're the best listener that I've ever met > >> You're my best friend > >> Best friend with benefits > >> What took me so long > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 12:55:18 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 08:55:18 -0400 Subject: perMIT, n. Message-ID: This pronunciation of the noun, with final-syllable stress, struck me as weird when I first heard it around 1971, and I believe we dicussed it some years ago. In the movie _Blackwell's Island_ (1939), starring the great John Garfield, a prison guard explains clearly that a visitor "has a perMIT signed by the Deputy Commissioner of Corrections." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 13:49:35 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:49:35 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 4:24 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > A young person at work played this album for me when it first came out. Its > release was 1995, not 1992. I suppose she could have written the song > earlier than 1995. > > I haven't listened to the song in a while, but I took the meaning as [best > friend] and the kicker [with benefits]. I should listen to it again. > However, from an interview of hers I read years ago, the alternative {best > [friend with benefits]} is also plausible: She stated that her and her band > members were having a contest to see who could have the most sex while they > were on tour. > (I'll have to look for the interview when I'm on a less-restricted > computer). I think it may have appeared in "Acoustic Guitar". > > Very good songwriting IMHO. She is certainly talented enough to coin this > phrase. I tried a little searching on Google for the phrase, but the > bandwidth is clogged with info about the current, similarly-titled movie > "Friends with Benefits". I tried minusing out "film" and "movie", but it's > still quite a popular phrase. Any ideas on how to search for early > occurrences of the phrase? > > Eric > Browsing through the Google Books hits under "friends with benefits" does get rid of most (not all) of the references to the movie, but I'm not sure how to arrange the hits chronologically if it's possible to do so. Most seem to be from the last 5 years, which doesn't help. Alternatively there's Nexis, but they keep changing the search algorithms and I haven't kept up. LH > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >> Not knowing the song, I was wondering whether the parsing at the time was >> [best friend] [with benefits] or {best [friend with benefits]]. Maybe it's >> hard to tell. >> >> LH >> >> On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: >> >>> In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a >> pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered >> if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. >>> >>> Neal >>> >>> On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock >> wrote: >>> >>>> Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) >>>> >>>> You're the best listener that I've ever met >>>> You're my best friend >>>> Best friend with benefits >>>> What took me so long >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 14:37:55 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:37:55 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 09:49 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Browsing through the Google Books hits under >"friends with benefits" does get rid of most >(not all) of the references to the movie, but >I'm not sure how to arrange the hits >chronologically if it's possible to do so. Most >seem to be from the last 5 years, which doesn't >help. Alternatively there's Nexis, but they >keep changing the search algorithms and I haven't kept up. Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits­ I'm an outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell of a catch), with a lot to offer. Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring and summer ... I realized I was missing the special guy to share the good times with. You should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... [Or does the "just a bit" romantic disqualify this? Although there's something appealing about a possible New Jersey origin.] Date and page number confirmed from page footer. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 5 14:43:15 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:43:15 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051438.p75EbvRu006119@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits­ I'm an > outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > of a catch), with a lot to offer. > Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > and summer ... I realized I was missing the > special guy to share the good times with. You > should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on occasion. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 14:44:17 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:44:17 -0400 Subject: Frogs in hot water In-Reply-To: <3DE4D421-B5ED-412D-8624-34A9FC4CBFE0@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 09:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Actually the links (especially with reference to the Goltz studies >reported in Beitrage zur Lehre von den Functionen der Nervencentren >des Frosches; Berlin: August Hirschwald, 1869) make it clear that a >frog will indeed allow itself to be boiled when placed in a pot of >gradually heated water, IF (and apparently only if) it is a >decerebrated frog. And decerebrated frogs probably have an equally >hard time figuring out whether or not it's darkest just before the dawn. The only un-decerebrated frog I'm familiar with is the Cerebrated Jumping frog of Calaveras County. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Aug 5 14:47:19 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:47:19 -0500 Subject: Frogs in hot water (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108051444.p75AlXKQ008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > The only un-decerebrated frog I'm familiar with is the Cerebrated > Jumping frog of Calaveras County. > > Shouldn't that be "Caraveras County"? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:00:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:00:56 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051438.p75EbvRu006119@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:37 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 09:49 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> Browsing through the Google Books hits under >> "friends with benefits" does get rid of most >> (not all) of the references to the movie, but >> I'm not sure how to arrange the hits >> chronologically if it's possible to do so. Most >> seem to be from the last 5 years, which doesn't >> help. Alternatively there's Nexis, but they >> keep changing the search algorithms and I haven't kept up. > > Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > benefits" Aha! Good to know. I see from googling "friend(s) with benefits" + "Alanis Morissette" that her "Head over Feet" (1995) is variously described as coining, popularizing, or repopularizing the phrase. It was certainly at least a primary vector, although it's interesting that the expression, if not the concept, remained largely dormant—as Joel's data confirms--for another few years after that. LH > (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an > outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > of a catch), with a lot to offer. > ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:02:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:02:47 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805144314.GC5070@panix.com> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to >> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with >> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at >> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of >> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be >> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. >> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): >> >> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an >> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell >> of a catch), with a lot to offer. >> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in >> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring >> and summer ... I realized I was missing the >> special guy to share the good times with. You >> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > occasion. > That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 15:19:13 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:19:13 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Didn't find the original interview, but here is some verification: "During her first tour, Alanis and her band had a contest going to see who could sleep with the most people. Alanis, who says she’s “a very sexual person,” reportedly finished third." http://www.quotesquotations.com/biography/alanis-morissette-bio/ Eric On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > She stated that her and her band members were having a contest to see who > could have the most sex while they were on tour. > (I'll have to look for the interview when I'm on a less-restricted > computer). I think it may have appeared in "Acoustic Guitar". > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:26:05 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:26:05 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805144314.GC5070@panix.com> Message-ID: The 1997 disputed by Jesse does seems a bit ambiguous, like all personal relationships. But surely sex is offered in addition to the friendship, and as for sleeping with on occasion, the promise is only for the spring and summer? :-) (But there are possible instances, from a little later -- (1) 2000 -- "Amber If I was you, I'd get a boyfriend and have a real relationship because having a friend with benefits can get very confusing. [apparently signed] ­ ramalama [Next message] i don't want sex to get in the way I've been seeing this girl for two years now ­ I've really ... " This Book is about sex, by Tucker Shaw, Fiona Gibb, [New York:] Alloy Books, 2000, p. 26. Snippet. Publication data confirmed via WorldCat. (2) 2001 -- "Maybe I would take this better if I weren't so upset about Grampa. But Glenda--it's Jason. I was an idiot." She covered her face in her hands. "He's been cheating on me. It's over.' "What?"cried Glenda ... "Did you just find this out last night?" Aggie nodded and lowered her hands, turning her tear-drenched face towards Glenda. "I hear him on the phone. Oh God ... he was talking to some old ex-girlfriend back in Port. A friend with benefits. That's what he said she was." "That asshole," growled Glenda. "So you talked to him?" "Yes, I was on his porch and I fell down and he heard me and came out. He told me--" Aggie paused, wiping her face with her hands. "He told me he'd never claimed to be exclusive. That I had a completely different idea of the relationship. Which obviously I did." Aggie's Nine Heroes, by Diana Laurence, 2001. Page unnumbered? Preview available. Not in WorldCat. Four available at Amazon.com, whose cover illustration indicates published by Kiva. Does that make the year suspicious? Two other quotations around this time seem ambiguous, and might better fit Jesse's classification. From 2002 -- (3) "... might find a best friend with benefits. Don't you think being different is hard enough without saying your nasty stuff? Everywhere they go, they get dirt thrown in their face. So much hurt that can never be erased. ... " Fancy Flight, by Karen A. Davies, 2002, p. 35. Preview available; the added context may be useful to someone better than I. (4) "Aaron Rudner, my first best friend ... Jennifer Michals, my best friend with benefits. Thank you for sharing your heart, your humor, your strong support, your patience, and your vision." [Note the distinction between "best friend" and "best friend with benefits."] Fireworks MX fundamentals, by Abigail Rudner, Lori Denning, 2002, p. xxv. [From Acknowledgements.] Preview available. There are many instances starting in 2003 that I think would clearly indicate casual sex. Joel At 8/5/2011 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > > search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > > benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > > just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > > which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > > Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > > 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > > > "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits­ I'm an > > outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > > of a catch), with a lot to offer. > > Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > > central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > > and summer ... I realized I was missing the > > special guy to share the good times with. You > > should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > >But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >occasion. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:28:28 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:28:28 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <5B073482-08CC-4EFA-9BCF-76D0EFCD6909@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > > occasion. > > >That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. I was just about to ask about that, from my casual glance at the lyrics earlier in this message chain. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 5 15:31:25 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:31:25 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051528.p75FSTSX025933@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:28:28AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > >> partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > >> advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > >> a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > >> occasion. > >> > >That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. > > I was just about to ask about that, from my casual glance at the > lyrics earlier in this message chain. Yes, I agree. The Morissette song doesn't use the expression in what I regard as the 'main' sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:32:30 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:32:30 -0400 Subject: Frogs in hot water In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 10:47 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > > > > > The only un-decerebrated frog I'm familiar with is the Cerebrated > > Jumping frog of Calaveras County. > > > > > >Shouldn't that be "Caraveras County"? My l-r confusion is only intermittent. And only oral -- I can copy from Wikipedia without error. :-) JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:26:21 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:26:21 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051502.p75AlXOM008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> > >> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > >> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > >> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > >> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > >> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > >> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > >> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > >> > >> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an > >> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > >> of a catch), with a lot to offer. > >> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > >> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > >> and summer ... I realized I was missing the > >> special guy to share the good times with. You > >> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > > > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > > occasion. > > > That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A > speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of > euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a personal ad from 11/28/96: http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 15:37:02 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:37:02 +0000 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS In-Reply-To: <201108050353.p74HE7lW028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch of negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Neal Whitman > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I went to the library today to find these exx., but volumes I and II didn't > go up to the "T"s. And if I recall correctly from other discussions here, > volume III is unpublished. Could you share these unpublished examples? > > Also, I wonder how much Toni Morrison's 1981 book by this name has affected > the perception of "tar baby". > > Neal > > > On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. > >>> All > >>> after "Song > >>> of the South." > >>> > >>> JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:44:34 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:44:34 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051528.p75FSTSX025933@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >> > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >> > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >> > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >> > occasion. >> > >> That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. > > I was just about to ask about that, from my casual glance at the > lyrics earlier in this message chain. > > Joel Eric Nielsen probably can speak to this better than me, since I don't really know the song or the singer (and given that her favorite film is "Forrest Gump"…), but the complete lyrics (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/alanismorissette/headoverfeet.html) do seem to hint that her narrator* is seeking…well, something more than what we now think of as FWBs, despite the evidence of Morissette's own proclivities as mentioned in the bio Eric cites (that contest during the band's first tour, her self-reported "filthy mouth", her "penchant…for stealing other girls' boyfriends",...). LH *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second person). Talk about lexical gaps! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:49:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805153125.GH5070@panix.com> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 11:31 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >Yes, I agree. The Morissette song doesn't use the expression in what I >regard as the 'main' sense. Isn't that the "main squeeze" sense? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:40:23 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:40:23 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051536.p75AlXUs008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: [...] > That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the > Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Sorry, I over-shortened the shortened URL, which should be: http://goo.gl/ddIyP > Exx from '95-'96 > mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. > Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a > personal ad from 11/28/96: > > http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de > > Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c > > --bgz > -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 5 15:51:36 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:51:36 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second > person). Talk about lexical gaps! I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Aug 5 15:54:22 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:54:22 -0500 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108051537.p75FY99L006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE But the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml > > The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch of > negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song > wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 16:00:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:00:06 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805155136.GM5070@panix.com> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 11:51 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? > > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person > > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second > > person). Talk about lexical gaps! > >I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". I don't think the literary critics have come up with anything better, considering the many uses I see of "narrator". >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:02:58 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:02:58 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>>> >>>> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to >>>> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with >>>> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at >>>> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of >>>> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be >>>> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. >>>> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): >>>> >>>> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an >>>> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell >>>> of a catch), with a lot to offer. >>>> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in >>>> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring >>>> and summer ... I realized I was missing the >>>> special guy to share the good times with. You >>>> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... >>> >>> But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >>> partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >>> advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >>> a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >>> occasion. >>> >> That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A >> speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of >> euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". > > That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the > Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 > mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. > Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a > personal ad from 11/28/96: > > http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de > > Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c > > --bgz > > — This will be an interesting entry when it's written. Assuming Morissette's usage ends up bracketed for the reasons we've discussed, does Mr. Friedman get credit for first cite? None of the google books cites in the relevant (fuck-buddy-plus) sense predates this. I add the "plus" because one of the cites I was browsing distinguished FWB from fuck buddy on the one side—fuck buddies aren't necessarily friends, after all—as well as romantic (or "relationshippy") partner (not to mention soulmate, as in the '96 ad above). I am kidding, mostly, because Friedman obviously didn't originate the term in this sense, he presupposes familiarity with it, but where do we go from here? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:04:40 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:04:40 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051600.p75AlX3n019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the old days, they used to talk about the "voice" of or in the poem. JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/5/2011 11:51 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > > > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? > > > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person > > > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second > > > person). Talk about lexical gaps! > > > >I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". > > I don't think the literary critics have come up with anything better, > considering the many uses I see of "narrator". > > > >Jesse Sheidlower > >OED > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:10:01 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:10:01 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051600.p75G07Sd004347@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:00 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 11:51 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >> > >> > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? >> > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person >> > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second >> > person). Talk about lexical gaps! >> >> I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". > > I don't think the literary critics have come up with anything better, > considering the many uses I see of "narrator". > > The relevant sense of "narrator" in the OED is 2a, The voice or persona (whether explicitly identified or merely implicit) by which are related the events in a plot, esp. that of a novel or narrative poem. which I guess would cover the song context, sort of, given that "esp." is not exhaustive. But it still seems weird to me to refer to the song's narrator, not that I can come up with anything better. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:21:41 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:21:41 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "John Doe" Message-ID: John Doe (OED 1768) 1599 in OED, s.v. _Richard Roe_ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:13:23 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:13:23 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051603.p75AlXXo008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c >> > This will be an interesting entry when it's written. Assuming Morissette's usage > ends up bracketed for the reasons we've discussed, does Mr. Friedman get credit > for first cite? None of the google books cites in the relevant (fuck-buddy-plus) > sense predates this. I add the "plus" because one of the cites I was browsing > distinguished FWB from fuck buddy on the one side—fuck buddies aren't > necessarily friends, after all—as well as romantic (or "relationshippy") partner > (not to mention soulmate, as in the '96 ad above). I am kidding, mostly, > because Friedman obviously didn't originate the term in this sense, he > presupposes familiarity with it, but where do we go from here? Perhaps the polyamorous community holds the missing link. From Usenet again: --- http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. We are looking for someone to meet, get along with, have great times with, and fullfill Fantasies. The fantasies fullfilled will include yours. ... We are not really interested in meeting couples, or having The female half of a couple participate, while the male looks on. This is not an ad for just sex, as we are looking for a friend as well. I guess you could say, "A friend with Benefits" --- http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/15314ef25d2a380e alt.polyamory, Aug. 5, 1997 >A term that I have used off and on in the past that has served me well >is FAL. Friend And Lover. It's pretty descriptive of when a good >friend is also someone with whom I share sex, but with whom I'm not in >a relationship per se. I like it because it easy to say as well and >once I've introduced people to it, I can say it of someone and be >understood. I've always like "friend with access" or "friend with benefits" (as in the Alanis Morrisette song). Not as easy to say as "FAL", but, hey, I work in the computer industry: I don't need more acronyms in my life. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:30:09 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:30:09 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051545.p75AlX2l019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I re-listened to the song (great musical phrasing), and "best friend" is clearly most important: The "with benefits" is a relationship enhancement. At the end of this clip, she discusses the song a little: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQJ4_QgLwLc&feature=grec_index The titles of some of her other albums are provocative, too: *Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie* *Flavors of Entanglement* Eric tOn Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > >> > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that = > the > >> > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but = > also > >> > a close friend. > > the complete lyrics = > (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/alanismorissette/headoverfeet.html) do = > seem to hint that her narrator* is seeking=85well, something more than = > what we now think of as FWBs, despite the evidence of Morissette's own = > proclivities as mentioned in the bio Eric cites (that contest during the = > band's first tour, her self-reported "filthy mouth", her "penchant=85for = > stealing other girls' boyfriends",...). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:46:05 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:46:05 -0400 Subject: perMIT, n. In-Reply-To: <201108051255.p75AlXMB006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In the movie _Blackwell's Island_ (1939), starring the great John Garfield, > a prison guard explains clearly that a visitor "has a perMIT signed by the > Deputy Commissioner of Corrections." > _perMIT in wide use since at least 1939? (I assume "wide," based on the assumption that the "guard" was portrayed by a white actor.) That certainly jibes with my personal experience, though, till now, I'd been under the misprehapprehension that it was essentially only a BE thing. I keep forgetting that, in reality. I've lived my entire life without any true social contact whatsoever with white people, despite the fact that, my God! they're everywhere! Hence, I lack any gefuehl for the sprach of "the other group." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:50:55 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:50:55 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051545.p75AlX2l019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're in good company--as to wondering about terminology. Check out Suzy Bogguss' comments at about 3:50 in this interview (some good yodeling, too): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avWd9BAcNqU Eric On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? It's = > not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person whose = > point of view is represented (which may be a third/second person). Talk = > about lexical gaps!= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:46:58 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:46:58 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051623.p75AlXaM008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > Perhaps the polyamorous community holds the missing link. From Usenet again: > > --- > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 > alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 > We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. We are > looking for someone to meet, get along with, have great times > with, and fullfill Fantasies. The fantasies fullfilled will > include yours. ... > We are not really interested in meeting couples, or having The > female half of a couple participate, while the male looks on. > This is not an ad for just sex, as we are looking for a friend as > well. I guess you could say, "A friend with Benefits" > --- > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/15314ef25d2a380e > alt.polyamory, Aug. 5, 1997 >>A term that I have used off and on in the past that has served me well >>is FAL. Friend And Lover. It's pretty descriptive of when a good >>friend is also someone with whom I share sex, but with whom I'm not in >>a relationship per se. I like it because it easy to say as well and >>once I've introduced people to it, I can say it of someone and be >>understood. > I've always like "friend with access" or "friend with > benefits" (as in the Alanis Morrisette song). Not as easy to say as > "FAL", but, hey, I work in the computer industry: I don't need more > acronyms in my life. > --- One more from alt.polyamory, indicating that "friends with benefits" joined up with the similarly euphemistic "friends with access" and "friends with privileges" (however spelled), independent of Alanis: --- http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/5b5128bb07bcc0a9 alt.polyamory, Feb. 22, 1996 : It is just a matter of definitions and time: : one-night-stand: sex for a night : sex friends: sex for two+ nights (that was good, i want some more :) ) : dating: i guess emotional involvement, though i've been somewhat fuzzy on : the exact definition ever since friend and sexual friend and dating began : to overlap.... now i just give up on labeling unless it's clear... *smile* once it becomes something more than once or twice which we call hooking up, we've taken to using phrases like "fuck buddy" (a tad vulgar but fun), "friends with access" or "Friends with priveleges". my personal fave is friends with access... --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 17:09:14 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:09:14 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051657.p75FY9Ll006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just wondering: wasn't "benefits" often used in feminist writing to refer to what women received in exchange for sex? Might have been an influence on the "friend with benefits" phrase. DanG On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> Perhaps the polyamorous community holds the missing link. From Usenet again: >> >> --- >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 >> alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 >> We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. We are >> looking for someone to meet, get along with, have great times >> with, and fullfill Fantasies. The fantasies fullfilled will >> include yours. ... >> We are not really interested in meeting couples, or having The >> female half of a couple participate, while the male looks on. >> This is not an ad for just sex, as we are looking for a friend as >> well. I guess you could say, "A friend with Benefits" >> --- >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/15314ef25d2a380e >> alt.polyamory, Aug. 5, 1997 >>>A term that I have used off and on in the past that has served me well >>>is FAL. Friend And Lover. It's pretty descriptive of when a good >>>friend is also someone with whom I share sex, but with whom I'm not in >>>a relationship per se. I like it because it easy to say as well and >>>once I've introduced people to it, I can say it of someone and be >>>understood. >> I've always like "friend with access" or "friend with >> benefits" (as in the Alanis Morrisette song). Not as easy to say as >> "FAL", but, hey, I work in the computer industry: I don't need more >> acronyms in my life. >> --- > > One more from alt.polyamory, indicating that "friends with benefits" > joined up with the similarly euphemistic "friends with access" and > "friends with privileges" (however spelled), independent of Alanis: > > --- > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/5b5128bb07bcc0a9 > alt.polyamory, Feb. 22, 1996 > : It is just a matter of definitions and time: > : one-night-stand: sex for a night > : sex friends: sex for two+ nights (that was good, i want some more :) ) > : dating: i guess emotional involvement, though i've been somewhat fuzzy on > : the exact definition ever since friend and sexual friend and dating began > : to overlap.... now i just give up on labeling unless it's clear... > *smile* once it becomes something more than once or twice which we call > hooking up, we've taken to using phrases like "fuck buddy" (a tad vulgar > but fun), "friends with access" or "Friends with priveleges". my > personal fave is friends with access... > --- > > --bgz > > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Aug 5 17:15:59 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:15:59 -0500 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108050353.p74HE7lW028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. >>> All after "Song of the South." >>> >>> JL > Joel Chandler Harris started on the Uncle Remus stories in 1876 (per Wikipedia), but there is in Newspaperarchive an 1873 telling of the tar baby story, complete with dialect. This antedates the OED (1881) _The Cedar Rapids Times_ (Cedar Rapids, Iowa) January 16, 1873 Page 4 col 2 "Den Bu Rabbit draw off an' hit um one slap -- 'e han' fassen to de Tar Baby face!" Also: _The Daily Memphis Avalanche_ (Memphis TN, NewsBank Early American Newspapers) 12/27/1867 p. 1 col 1 "One of the Virginia conventionists, who wears a white choker is compared by an irreverent correspondent to a tar baby in a cream pot." Figurative use: Petersburg Index-Appeal | Petersburg, Virginia | Tuesday, July 09, 1878 | Page 1 col 1 (newspaperarchive) "Capt. W. says that he is like the rabbit in the nursery story, that he has smacked a political tar baby to which he is stuck, is sticking, and will continue to stick beyond the power of the resurrectionist." Macon [GA] Telegraph Feb 19 1889 p 3 col 2 (NewsBank Early American Newspapers) "The young fellow had a regular tar baby of a memory. It stuck to everything." Offensive use (OED has 1948) _Omaha [NE] World Herald_ 2/25/1892 p 3 col 2 (NewsBank Early American Newspapers) "Jay Joseph, a small lad who was with a crowd of urchins about his style and size yesterday afternoon, was arrested for calling a man named Wagner an ugly name. . . It turned out that another boy had called the man a tar baby, and that the person to whom this gentle appellation was given was so enraged by it that he wanted to have the boy hung." See also black boxer Sam Langford http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Langford which may be somewhat ambiguous in that getting stuck in a tar baby may be something like fighting a particular style of boxer. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 17:16:13 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:16:13 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > I re-listened to the song (great musical phrasing), and "best friend" is > clearly most important: The "with benefits" is a relationship enhancement. > > At the end of this clip, she discusses the song a little: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQJ4_QgLwLc&feature=grec_index > > …and in fact she says there that the song is about being in love with someone (in addition to the benefits part), so definitely not the canonical meaning for "friend with benefits", which Ben's polyamory postings (well, not *his* postings per se) indicate had already developed by the mid-'90s. But maybe the line in the song was ripe for reinterpretation and there was a clear sense of a lexical gap that needed filled. I do seem to recall "sex friend" from the 90s, which was one of the alternate forms listed in one of those postings, but maybe it was just too transparent for the purpose. Even if "friend(s) with benefits" isn't a euphemism as such, its translucency no doubt helped its success, even if no one used it in contexts like "Grandma, I'd like you to meet Sandy, my friend with benefits." LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 17:39:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:39:52 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _give it up_ Message-ID: Twenty-ish black male speaker, addressing his wife: "Blah, blah, bah! And you don't even hardly let me have sex no more!" Twenty-ish, black female speaker, in response: "Why *should* I _give it up_ to you, when you don't do *nothing* to help me?" This has to do with my earlier post claiming that the ritualized practice of calling upon audiences to "give it up" is a sex-based pun entirely understood as such by those audience. _Get up off of (it)_ has the same, ritualized, sexual meaning, as in the well-known(?), punning blues verse, If I can't sell it Then I'm going to keep on sitting on it Because I ain't _getting up off of_ *nothing* For *free*! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 19:06:33 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:06:33 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 12:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >--- >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 >alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 >We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. Perhaps the same couple as in my 2001 cite? "Aggie nodded and lowered her hands, turning her tear-drenched face towards Glenda. "I hear him on the phone. Oh God ... he was talking to some old ex-girlfriend back in Port." JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 19:19:28 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:19:28 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "John Doe" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782824A245DEE@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 12:21 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >John Doe (OED 1768) > >1599 in OED, s.v. _Richard Roe_ I think we simply have to wait until the OED marches on to J. (In 2009, Jesse wrote me that he had both John and Richard from 1599. I had found them in 1696 in Essex Country, Mass.) JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 21:21:31 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 17:21:31 -0400 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: Check it out: "There's no substitute for beer." That means beer is good: accept no substitutes. "Champagne is no substitute for beer." That mean beer is good: better than champagne. If you're with me so far (and I'll bet somebody isn't), the following sentence is insane: "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and survival the twin brother of annihilation.' "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be increased_." The passage was written by Ron Hirschbein, who has "created programs in war and peace studies at the University of California, Chico." A few lines later, Prof. Hirschbein writes with a straight face, "[P]hilosophers are troubled by contradictions and unintelligible prose, especially when no effort is made to resolve the contradictions and to render clear and distinct expression." Churchill's comment, made in 1955, is provocative. But Hirschbein seems to believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear crises." (Think about *that* one!) The passage appears in the popular paperback for undergraduate thinkers, _Alice in Wonderland and Philosophy_, ed. by R. B. Davis (Wiley, 2010). JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 01:52:37 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 21:52:37 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108052121.p75JKn4k008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." What we have here is a failure to communicate. Clearly, what the author intended to say is that "Dubious reasoning is no substitute for eloquence." That is to say, eloquence is superior to dubious reasoning. WTF? It's "still" nothing but meaningless blather! Must be an example of that "sound and fury signifying nothing" of which the Bible so eloquently speaks. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Sat Aug 6 02:32:58 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 22:32:58 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? Message-ID: Great find! FWIW, we've been watching a few "All in the Family" reruns on DVD, and I've heard Archie use the terms "coon", "black beauty" and I think one more. I haven't (yet) heard him use "tar baby" (or, for that matter, "nigger"). However, this show would seem to be a promising place to find racially derogatory uses of "tar baby" if it was at all common in the 1970s. Does anyone who's seen more episodes than I have remember Archie Bunker saying "tar baby"? Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" To: Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 11:54 AM Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > But the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard > Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. > > http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml > > >> >> The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch > of >> negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song >> wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. >> >> >> > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 02:50:03 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 22:50:03 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108052121.p75JKn4k008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Check it out: > > "There's no substitute for beer." That means beer is good: accept no > substitutes. > > "Champagne is no substitute for beer." That mean beer is good: better than > champagne. > > If you're with me so far (and I'll bet somebody isn't), the following > sentence is insane: > > "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." Jon: Do you think the following examples may be similar to the one that you are critiquing? Bottomline: Volume 2, Part 2 National Council of Savings Institutions (U.S.) - 1985 - Snippet view High yields are no substitute for poor credit or overpriced properties; pity those who have had to learn this the hard way. The motor ship: Volume 58 1977 - Snippet view Q COLLISION-AVOIDANCE radar systems are no substitute for poor officers or a guarantee of safe passage. These are among the major (and perhaps obvious, a cynic might say) findings of a study carried out by Liverpool Polytechnic College ... Introduction to floriculture Roy A. Larson - 1992 - 636 pages - Snippet view Growth retardants should be considered as one of the many tools available to the grower. They are no substitute for poor cultural practices. Here is my interpretation of this construct when it is used in the manner above. X is no substitute for Y. X cannot or should not be used to mask or minimize the problems associated with Y. X cannot be used to ameliorate Y. (Of course, I am not passing judgment on whether this is proper or improper English. This is a descriptivist analysis by a layperson.) [Examples are unverified snippets from Google Books.] > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy of > "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] have > reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence is no > substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the others > are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > increased_." > > The passage was written by Ron Hirschbein, who has "created programs in war > and peace studies at the University of California, Chico." A few lines > later, Prof. Hirschbein writes with a straight face, "[P]hilosophers are > troubled by contradictions and unintelligible prose, especially when no > effort is made to resolve the contradictions and to render clear and > distinct expression." > > Churchill's comment, made in 1955, is provocative. But Hirschbein seems to > believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His > research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear > crises." (Think about *that* one!) > > The passage appears in the popular paperback for undergraduate thinkers, > _Alice in Wonderland and Philosophy_, ed. by R. B. Davis (Wiley, 2010). > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 03:10:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 23:10:07 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108060233.p75JKnB6008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Neal Whitman quoted Bill Mullins: > the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. I saw the original and I've since seen a bunch of re-runs. That "tar-baby" was tossed into the mix struck me as incongruous and it still does. However, if everybody else is pretty sure that I should be accepting of "tar-baby" as a derogatory term in the minds of white people and in the minds of a few black people who have nothing worse in their lives to b concerned with, well... BTW, does anyone else remember the the NatLamp parody, Awl in de Fambly ? FWIW, when I still lived in Marshall, I didn't use "fambly," but I did use "chimley" > _chimney_, a word that I knew only from the Santa Claus story. You don't need a chimley, when you use the Texas equivalent of the electric space-heater ("Central heating"? Say what, now?), the natural-gas space-heater, for warmth. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Aug 6 05:16:32 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 00:16:32 -0500 Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) Message-ID: It's Vol 106, #7, July, 1986, pp. 32-43; The Long Stern Chase: A Speculative Exercise, by Rick Cook, under the TOC heading, Science Fact, and the quote is on p. 36. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garson O'Toole" To: Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 5:09 PM Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) In June there was a discussion on this list about the fable/proverb concerning a lion and a gazelle. Here is a link to the initiating post in the archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;7fbbbcef.1106D Based on the content of some past messages there are some SF fans on the list who might have access to Analog magazine in 1986. I am trying to verify a citation that contains a variant of the proverb with an antelope, and it is difficult to find the appropriate issues in a library. Two matches in Google Books give conflicting information, but both matches indicate that the text below is supposed to appear on page 36 in an issue dated 1986: A lion wakes up each morning thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the slowest antelope." An antelope wakes up thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the fastest lion." A human wakes up thinking, "To hell with who's fastest, I'll outlast the bastards." I am trying to construct a full citation. Here is the conflicting information from GB: Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 79, Issues 4-6 Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 106, Issues 7-9 Here is a link into Google Books: http://goo.gl/bXSd6 http://books.google.com/books?id=DrEnAQAAIAAJ&q=%22antelope+wakes%22#search_anchor If a list member can find this quotation in Analog magazine and send me (or the list) the cite information that would be very kind. Knowing the name of the article and the author would be helpful. (Scans would be perfect if it is easy for you to create them, but providing the citation data by itself would be great. [Scans cannot be sent to the list, of course]) Thanks, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 12:44:27 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 08:44:27 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108060233.p75JKnB6008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: HDAS cites go much farther back than I recalled. The earliest: 1888 Gordon & Page _Befo' de War_ 76: An' I ain't gwine ter swallow dat tar baby's lies. 1918 _Saturday Eve. Post_ (Jan. 19) 17: "Is there anything wrong with my hearing," says Sam, "or has that tar baby got an English accent?" 1920-21 H. C. Witwer _The Leather Pushers_ 19: The Kid rocks the tar baby with a right to the body. 1945 Drake & Cayton _Black Metropolis_ 502: My brothers and sister used to call me "tar baby." That would hurt me. Some of these may have gotten into OED online by now. I didn't note any ex. from Archie Bunker, but that may simply mean that I didn't need any from that period. One nuance is obviously, "a very black person," not just a black person. JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Neal Whitman > Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Great find! > > FWIW, we've been watching a few "All in the Family" reruns on DVD, and I've > heard Archie use the terms "coon", "black beauty" and I think one more. I > haven't (yet) heard him use "tar baby" (or, for that matter, "nigger"). > However, this show would seem to be a promising place to find racially > derogatory uses of "tar baby" if it was at all common in the 1970s. Does > anyone who's seen more episodes than I have remember Archie Bunker saying > "tar baby"? > > Neal > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > But the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard > > Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. > > > > http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml > > > > > >> > >> The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch > > of > >> negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song > >> wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 13:01:42 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 09:01:42 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108060250.p75AlXS3019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Garson. Your exx. seem to fit. Your definition sounds about right too. Descriptive linguistics oberves that the usage exists and seems nonproblematical to its users. Common sense says that, to everyone else, it's confusing and illogical and makes the utterer sound like a complete jackass. That's strike three. Much of the reason is that "substitute" alone has never meant "fraudulent or deceptive replacement" or "disguise." In the the 22nd century, maybe. But not not now. People who might say it does mean only that it does for them and their semantic soulmates. (Of course, I'm sure there are more of those than I'd like to think about.) Is it possible that the notion arose from childhood misunderstandings of the once popular advertising phrase, quoted in my own exx., "Accept no substitutes"? JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Check it out: > > > > "There's no substitute for beer." That means beer is good: accept no > > substitutes. > > > > "Champagne is no substitute for beer." That mean beer is good: better > than > > champagne. > > > > If you're with me so far (and I'll bet somebody isn't), the following > > sentence is insane: > > > > "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." > > Jon: Do you think the following examples may be similar to the one > that you are critiquing? > > Bottomline: Volume 2, Part 2 > National Council of Savings Institutions (U.S.) - 1985 - Snippet view > High yields are no substitute for poor credit or overpriced > properties; pity those who have had to learn this the hard way. > > The motor ship: Volume 58 > 1977 - Snippet view > Q COLLISION-AVOIDANCE radar systems are no substitute for poor > officers or a guarantee of safe passage. These are among the major > (and perhaps obvious, a cynic might say) findings of a study carried > out by Liverpool Polytechnic College ... > > Introduction to floriculture > Roy A. Larson - 1992 - 636 pages - Snippet view > Growth retardants should be considered as one of the many tools > available to the grower. They are no substitute for poor cultural > practices. > > Here is my interpretation of this construct when it is used in the manner > above. > > X is no substitute for Y. > X cannot or should not be used to mask or minimize the problems > associated with Y. X cannot be used to ameliorate Y. > > (Of course, I am not passing judgment on whether this is proper or > improper English. This is a descriptivist analysis by a layperson.) > [Examples are unverified snippets from Google Books.] > > > > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy of > > "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] > have > > reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence is > no > > substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the > others > > are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > > increased_." > > > > The passage was written by Ron Hirschbein, who has "created programs in > war > > and peace studies at the University of California, Chico." A few lines > > later, Prof. Hirschbein writes with a straight face, "[P]hilosophers are > > troubled by contradictions and unintelligible prose, especially when no > > effort is made to resolve the contradictions and to render clear and > > distinct expression." > > > > Churchill's comment, made in 1955, is provocative. But Hirschbein seems > to > > believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His > > research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear > > crises." (Think about *that* one!) > > > > The passage appears in the popular paperback for undergraduate thinkers, > > _Alice in Wonderland and Philosophy_, ed. by R. B. Davis (Wiley, 2010). > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 6 14:12:59 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:12:59 -0400 Subject: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 05:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >But Hirschbein seems to >believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His >research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear >crises." (Think about *that* one!) I am thinking. And I imagine Hirschbein saying about Hiroshima what Derrida wrote about 9/11, as noted by Edward Rothstein in an appraisal shortly after he died. I find I did not ever send this to ADS-L. The New York Times, Monday October 11, 2004, "An Appraisal: The Man Who Showed Us How to Take the World Apart", by Edward Rothstein, page B1 -- its last few paragraphs. Transcribed by me, at a time when I did not have access to the NYTimes archives, with apologies for any typos: It's still at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/arts/music/11derr.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=rothtein%20man%20showed%20apart&st=cse But of course, one reason for the extraordinary success of Derrida's ideas is that they also followed an orthodoxy in which rebellion is privileged over tradition and iconoclasm over authority. Independence is declared; obeisance is dismissed. This devotion to autonomy, accompanied by a spirit of play, is partly what gave Derrida a following in America far more enduring than that in France. His radical anti-authoritarianism and counter-Western ideas also gave him an empathetic reception on the international political left. But this orthodoxy, too, can be as ruthless and demanding as any other. This may have been why Derrida could often become mannered and puerile, endlessly turning rebellion on itself. And late in his life, Derrida, bristling at charges that he was a relativist, tried to find some sort of firm, unshakeable ground upon which to stand a notion of political activity and justice that might justify his triumphant orthodoxy. To no avail. In the recent book, "Philosophy in a Time of Terror," here is what he said about 9/11: "We do not in fact know what we are saying or naming in this way: September 11, le 11 septembre, September11. The brevity of the appellation (September 11, 9/11) stems not only from an economic or rhetorical necessity. The telegram of this metonymy -- a name, a number -- points out the unqualifiable by recognizing that we do not recognize or even cognize that we do not yet know how to qualify, that we do not know what we are talking about." The rest is silence. [The last sentence above is not mine; it is the last in Rothstein's article.] Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 16:24:25 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 12:24:25 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108061301.p76B0pJ5003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: BTW, Hirschbein's "plain English" is no substitute for Churchill's original. He simply failed to understand the quote that he based his whole hyperventilating tirade on. In that context, what's a little perversion of a common idiom! VS-) On 8/6/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: ... > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy > of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] > have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence > is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the > others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > increased_." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 18:00:06 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 14:00:06 -0400 Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) In-Reply-To: <201108060516.p75JKnJw008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dave Hause wrote > It's Vol 106, #7, July, 1986, pp. 32-43; The Long Stern Chase: A > Speculative Exercise, by Rick Cook, under the TOC heading, Science Fact, and > the quote is on p. 36. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Waynesville, MO Great! Many thanks to Dave Hause for kindly locating the passage about lions and antelopes within the July, 1986 issue of Analog. The blog post on "The Fable of the Lion and the Gazelle" has now been updated to include this Analog citation together with an acknowledgement in the bibliographic notes. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/05/lion-gazelle/ With Appreciation Garson > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Garson O'Toole" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 5:09 PM > Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles > (antelopes, humans) > > > In June there was a discussion on this list about the fable/proverb > concerning a lion and a gazelle. Here is a link to the initiating post > in the archives: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;7fbbbcef.1106D > > Based on the content of some past messages there are some SF fans on > the list who might have access to Analog magazine in 1986. I am trying > to verify a citation that contains a variant of the proverb with an > antelope, and it is difficult to find the appropriate issues in a > library. > > Two matches in Google Books give conflicting information, but both > matches indicate that the text below is supposed to appear on page 36 > in an issue dated 1986: > > A lion wakes up each morning thinking, "All I've got to do today is > run faster than the slowest antelope." > > An antelope wakes up thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster > than the fastest lion." > > A human wakes up thinking, "To hell with who's fastest, I'll outlast > the bastards." > > I am trying to construct a full citation. Here is the conflicting > information from GB: > > Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 79, Issues 4-6 > Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 106, Issues 7-9 > > Here is a link into Google Books: > > http://goo.gl/bXSd6 > http://books.google.com/books?id=DrEnAQAAIAAJ&q=%22antelope+wakes%22#search_anchor > > If a list member can find this quotation in Analog magazine and send > me (or the list) the cite information that would be very kind. Knowing > the name of the article and the author would be helpful. (Scans would > be perfect if it is easy for you to create them, but providing the > citation data by itself would be great. [Scans cannot be sent to the > list, of course]) > > Thanks, Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 19:58:14 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 15:58:14 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108061624.p76AmUWY001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The biggest problem I have with the Churchill quote is that it's too absurdly optimistic. If he'd said "may be" instead of "will be," I'd have no problem. I'm sure the context of the remark would have modified the sense somewhat too. Hirschbein also seems to believe that the phrase "balance of terror" was turned into "mutually assured destruction" because "terror" required a euphemism to keep the public behind it. Like 1. "mutually assured destruction" (aka "MAD") isn't almost equally scary. 2. the professional users of such terms are so easily distracted that they can't remember what they're really talking about. (I'm sure there were some Strangelove types, of course.) 3. "MAD" ousted "balance of terror" from the strategic lexicon. Of course the Defense Department (formerly the War Department) is always on the lookout, like everybody else, for attractive euphemisms. But Hirschbein's article presents something like a strong Worf-Sapir hypothesis, apparently calculated by madmen to fool themselves and everyone else, that makes everything worse than it is already. To continue my rant: he also ridicules the proverb, "If you wish for peace, prepare for war," by suggesting its absolute interchangeability with "If you wish for war, prepare for war." It's great when you can sum up war, peace, diplomacy,and MAD in a couple of easy-to-remember slogans. Saves brain work. JL JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > BTW, Hirschbein's "plain English" is no substitute for Churchill's > original. He simply failed to understand the quote that he based his > whole hyperventilating tirade on. In that context, what's a little > perversion of a common idiom! > > VS-) > > On 8/6/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ... > > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy > > of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] > > have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence > > is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and > the > > others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > > increased_." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 6 20:40:18 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 16:40:18 -0400 Subject: "Narrative" again Message-ID: In an article in today's NYTimes on the conviction of five New Orleans police offers of unjustified shooting of six citizens just after Hurricane Katrina, Campbell Robertson writes: "The trial was not only about these five officers but also about what exactly happened in the weeks after the hurricane, a sort of judgment on the initial widely held belief that the authorities were trying to control elements of a citizenry run rampant. ":In the years since, that narrative has been qualified. While some people did turn to crime and violence, it has become apparent that some of the bloodshed and chaos was brought about by members of the long-troubled Police Department." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 6 21:43:18 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 14:43:18 -0700 Subject: Hibakusha Message-ID: In ADS list message 5915, 17 April 2000, Barry Popik mentions that he sees the word "hibakusha" all over Hiroshima Peace Park. He also notes that it's not in the OED, and it still is not. (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0004C&L=ADS-L&P=R928&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches) Because the anniversaries of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima atomic bombings are upon us, the word is in the news right now. In an article in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/in-a-switch-japans-a-bomb-survivors-turn-against-nuclear-energy/2011/08/04/gIQALjBzvI_story.html) dated yesterday, Chico Harlan uses the word without italics, but does describe the meaning: ----- But most of the bombing survivors, known as hibakusha, have long had a far more complex, and often positive, view of nuclear power — which partly explains why Japan now has reactors along almost every rural swath of its shoreline, 54 in all, accounting for about 30 percent of the national power supply. ----- Outside of Google Books, the earliest citation I can find on Google is June 1977, when the magazine Penthouse ran a story titled "The HIbakusha Gallery" by Edward Bryant. (See http://www.wonderclub.com/magazines/adult_magazine_single_page.php?magid=penthouse&u=PENT197706.) In the years after that, my manual searching on Google showed there is a scattering of hits each year, until 2001 when the number of hits suddenly increases dramatically. The earliest Google Books citation I see is 1961: "Children of the ashes: the story of a rebirth" by Robert Jungk (http://books.google.com/books?id=vIA1AAAAIAAJ&q=hibakusha&dq=hibakusha&hl=en&ei=17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA) Italics are used, indicated here by underscores: ----- ...the Japanese began to think less about the 'cold-hearted Americans' and more about their own failure to do anything to ameliorate the suffering of the _hibakusha_. (page 278) Yet now, in Hiroshima, the foundation stone had been laid for a new hospital to care for the atomic sick. (Incidentally, not a single _hibakusha_ had been invited to attend this ceremony.) (page 288) ----- An earlier hit in 1953 reveals the word spelled in capitals, but it is in Japanese and translated as "atomic bomb survivors" (http://books.google.com/books?id=JqITAQAAMAAJ&q=hibakusha&dq=hibakusha&hl=en&ei=17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ). "Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary" (known as "The Green Goddess"), fourth edition, 1974 (impressed 1993), has hibaku as a headword and hibakusha listed under it: "a victim of an atomic air raid." The "New Shogakukan Random House English-Japanese Dictionary", second edition, 1994, gives a citation of 1970 for hibakusha. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From indigo at WELL.COM Sat Aug 6 21:51:44 2011 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 14:51:44 -0700 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom Message-ID: Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& expanded) the duties of "yum"? Made-up examples using cupcakes: I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... Cupcakes! Nom nom! We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsalmons at WISC.EDU Sat Aug 6 22:02:54 2011 From: jsalmons at WISC.EDU (Joseph Salmons) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 17:02:54 -0500 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062151.p76B0pQX003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's been fast. On Aug 6, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Indigo Som wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Indigo Som > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > -- > Indigo Som > indigo at well.com > http://www.indigosom.com > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 6 22:05:52 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 15:05:52 -0700 Subject: Hibakusha In-Reply-To: <201108062143.p76AmUkc001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I forgot to check the more recent edition of the Green Goddess. In the 2003 edition of "Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary," the definition indicates that the English word "hibakusha" is a narrowing of the Japanese 被爆者 (hibakusha). The definitions of 被爆者 given are: a person who was exposed to radiation from an A-[H-]bomb a survivor [victim] of an A-[H-] bomb [an atomic air raid] {of Hiroshima/Nagasaki} a _hibakusha_ Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 6, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Hibakusha > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In ADS list message 5915, 17 April 2000, Barry Popik mentions that he = > sees the word "hibakusha" all over Hiroshima Peace Park. He also notes = > that it's not in the OED, and it still is not. = > (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0004C&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= > 928&I=3D-3&d=3DNo+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches) > > Because the anniversaries of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima atomic bombings = > are upon us, the word is in the news right now. In an article in the = > Washington Post = > (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/in-a-switch-japans-a-bom= > b-survivors-turn-against-nuclear-energy/2011/08/04/gIQALjBzvI_story.html) = > dated yesterday, Chico Harlan uses the word without italics, but does = > describe the meaning: > > ----- > But most of the bombing survivors, known as hibakusha, have long had a = > far more complex, and often positive, view of nuclear power =97 which = > partly explains why Japan now has reactors along almost every rural = > swath of its shoreline, 54 in all, accounting for about 30 percent of = > the national power supply. > ----- > > Outside of Google Books, the earliest citation I can find on Google is = > June 1977, when the magazine Penthouse ran a story titled "The HIbakusha = > Gallery" by Edward Bryant. (See = > http://www.wonderclub.com/magazines/adult_magazine_single_page.php?magid=3D= > penthouse&u=3DPENT197706.) In the years after that, my manual searching = > on Google showed there is a scattering of hits each year, until 2001 = > when the number of hits suddenly increases dramatically.=20 > > The earliest Google Books citation I see is 1961: "Children of the = > ashes: the story of a rebirth" by Robert Jungk = > (http://books.google.com/books?id=3DvIA1AAAAIAAJ&q=3Dhibakusha&dq=3Dhibaku= > sha&hl=3Den&ei=3D17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=3DX&oi=3Dbook_result&ct=3Dresul= > t&resnum=3D1&ved=3D0CDAQ6AEwAA) > > Italics are used, indicated here by underscores: > ----- > ...the Japanese began to think less about the 'cold-hearted Americans' = > and more about their own failure to do anything to ameliorate the = > suffering of the _hibakusha_. (page 278) > > Yet now, in Hiroshima, the foundation stone had been laid for a new = > hospital to care for the atomic sick. (Incidentally, not a single = > _hibakusha_ had been invited to attend this ceremony.) (page 288) > ----- > > An earlier hit in 1953 reveals the word spelled in capitals, but it is = > in Japanese and translated as "atomic bomb survivors" = > (http://books.google.com/books?id=3DJqITAQAAMAAJ&q=3Dhibakusha&dq=3Dhibaku= > sha&hl=3Den&ei=3D17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=3DX&oi=3Dbook_result&ct=3Dresul= > t&resnum=3D2&ved=3D0CDQQ6AEwAQ). > > "Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary" (known as "The Green = > Goddess"), fourth edition, 1974 (impressed 1993), has hibaku as a = > headword and hibakusha listed under it: "a victim of an atomic air = > raid." > > The "New Shogakukan Random House English-Japanese Dictionary", second = > edition, 1994, gives a citation of 1970 for hibakusha. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 22:08:04 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:08:04 -0400 Subject: paranoid In-Reply-To: <201105090247.p48AlIL7023046@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Back in May Victor Steinbok initiated a thread about the following quotation (in its myriad manifestations): Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. I was finally able to check a Google Books snippet citation in Esquire magazine on microfilm. The GB database did not specify a month and the page number given was inaccurate. This is the earliest cite I have located that attributed a variant of the remark to the poet Delmore Schwartz. Cite: 1968 March, Esquire, Politics by Dwight Macdonald, Start Page 14, Quote Page 16, Volume 69, Number 3, Esquire Inc., Chicago, Illinois. (Verified on microfilm) But that McCarthy is in cahoots with Johnson on Vietnam would bother me if I could believe it, which I can't, too baroque for my set of mind. Granted that, as Delmore Schwartz remarked when someone accused him, justly, of paranoia, "Even paranoiacs have some real enemies." There are some cites with earlier dates in the list archives. For example, in July 1967 the existence of a button with the expression "Even Paranoids Have Real Enemies" was noted in the magazine Christianity Today. YBQ recorded a 1933 precursor from the pen of Dorothy L. Sayers "Because a person has monomania she need not be wrong about her facts." Victor gave citations to various publications including one that quoted Kissinger. Garson On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 10:47 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: paranoid > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am having a moment of doubt--the line is clearly in the movie version of > Catch-22 (1970): > > Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. > > > But is it in the book (1961, but written over about 8 years)? Because, if it > isn't... > > Well, just search around--it's credited to everyone from ACLU to Abbie > Hoffman. One credit I did not find: Joseph Heller. > > Oh, and BTW, Rahm Emanuel stole a similar line from Kissinger: Even a > paranoid (or "paranoids") can have enemies (or "has real enemies"). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 6 22:31:08 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:31:08 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062203.p76AmUlS001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's been fast. -- Are those discussions recorded? In AS? On-line? I suppose maybe "yum" + "nosh"? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 22:46:29 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:46:29 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral Message-ID: Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation or her body lingo. Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather than "Chairperson." "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 23:18:55 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:18:55 -0400 Subject: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] In-Reply-To: <201108061413.p76AmURm001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Allow me to play Derrida's Advocate. (God, how I hate this....) I believe his point is that the events of, leading up to, following, and comprehensively connected with the September 11 attacks are, when you get right down to it, of practically infinite diversity and complexity. In fact, no two people would or could give you the same summary, because the topic is, on the one hand, unknowable in its factual totality and, on the other, utterly subjective in its meaning (Bush says bad, Bin Laden says good. Who knows for sure? And why should I believe you if you try to answer the question?) Thus, when you refer to the entire _gestalt_, or even part of it, as "Nine- Eleven" or some other short hand that makes communication possible, you don't know what you're talking about because you don't know all the details, and you couldn't make final sense out of them if you did. So it all boils down to (yawn) just another game (or perhaps "narrative") in the endless play of signs. I believe that D would say that *any* reaction or response is pathetically irrational because none of us has the knowledge or ability to know the "truth," assuming that there even is a "truth" to be known. There could be, but maybe not; and if there is, we can't establish it anyway; and if "we" could - depending on who you mean by "we," kimosabe - there's really no reason for the non-we "Other" - say at the Bin Laden Compound or somewhere on Mars in the 39th century - to believe a word we say. How can they trust "our" judgment?) So admit your ignorance and, assuming that any action at all can have a truly rational basis, you can't really can't do any better than buying more books by Derrida.) J.-F. Baudrillard observed something similar about what was absurdly called the "1991 Gulf War." Something presumably happened, but its totality had only a minimal resemblance to the reporting and thinking about it. So, strictly speaking, "the Gulf War (or 'Gulf War' if you're picky) did not take place." What took place, if anything, was unknowable. What's more, anything you believe about it has been filtered and mediated repeatedly by those in or with power, along with their lackeys and proxies. So wise up and don't believe a word of it. Buy books by Baudrillard instead. I believe that similar postmodern solutions may be profitably applied to issues of national security, defense policy, military strategy, nuclear proliferation, and the like. They might work on the crummy economy too. But whether they do or not may have more to do with the inevitable consequences of the (alleged) Big Bang than with anything anybody actually thinks up on their own. So let the good times roll! JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/5/2011 05:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >But Hirschbein seems to > >believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His > >research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear > >crises." (Think about *that* one!) > > I am thinking. And I imagine Hirschbein saying about Hiroshima what > Derrida wrote about 9/11, as noted by Edward Rothstein in an > appraisal shortly after he died. I find I did not ever send this to ADS-L. > > The New York Times, Monday October 11, 2004, "An Appraisal: The Man > Who Showed Us How to Take the World Apart", by Edward Rothstein, page > B1 -- its last few paragraphs. Transcribed by me, at a time when I > did not have access to the NYTimes archives, with apologies for any > typos: It's still at > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/arts/music/11derr.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=rothtein%20man%20showed%20apart&st=cse > > But of course, one reason for the extraordinary success of Derrida's > ideas is that they also followed an orthodoxy in which rebellion is > privileged over tradition and iconoclasm over authority. Independence > is declared; obeisance is dismissed. This devotion to autonomy, > accompanied by a spirit of play, is partly what gave Derrida a > following in America far more enduring than that in France. His > radical anti-authoritarianism and counter-Western ideas also gave him > an empathetic reception on the international political left. > But this orthodoxy, too, can be as ruthless and demanding as > any other. This may have been why Derrida could often become mannered > and puerile, endlessly turning rebellion on itself. And late in his > life, Derrida, bristling at charges that he was a relativist, tried > to find some sort of firm, unshakeable ground upon which to stand a > notion of political activity and justice that might justify his > triumphant orthodoxy. To no avail. In the recent book, "Philosophy in > a Time of Terror," here is what he said about 9/11: > "We do not in fact know what we are saying or naming in this > way: September 11, le 11 septembre, September11. The brevity of the > appellation (September 11, 9/11) stems not only from an economic or > rhetorical necessity. The telegram of this metonymy -- a name, a > number -- points out the unqualifiable by recognizing that we do not > recognize or even cognize that we do not yet know how to qualify, > that we do not know what we are talking about." > The rest is silence. > > [The last sentence above is not mine; it is the last in Rothstein's > article.] > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 23:25:09 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:25:09 -0400 Subject: Rooster makes mo' racket dan de hin w'at lay de aig (Joel Chandler Harris 1881) Message-ID: Joel Chandler Harris and his Uncle Remus character have been discussed on the list in conjunction with the term tar baby. Recently, I came across one of his 1881 proverbs while tracing a quotation. I think that a saying Harris recorded about roosters and hens has been transformed over time to yield a modern political barb. The cock may crow but it's the hen who lays the egg. These words are typically attributed to the UK politician Margaret Thatcher. In one anecdote she was supposed to deliver a speech to a largely male political audience and her talk was delayed. Other male orators spoke before her and when she finally reached the platform she made the remark given above. Tracing backward I found the following instances of variants of the saying: 'It's the rooster that does the crowing', she said, 'but it's the hen that lays the egg.' (1977 GB unverified) The rooster makes more clatter than the hen that lays the egg. (1958 GB unverified) Please note this little fact, I beg: It is the hen that lays the egg; the rooster does the yelling; he flaps his silly wings and crows, and points with pride a while, and throws some fits around your dwelling. (1916) http://books.google.com/books?id=xIJRAAAAYAAJ&q=flaps#v=snippet& Rooster makes mo' racket dan de hin w'at lay de aig. (1881) http://books.google.com/books?id=GyOAajmsAKIC&q=%22de+hin%22#v=snippet& The last statement is listed under "Plantation Proverbs" in "Uncle Remus: His Songs and His Sayings" (1881) by Joel Chandler Harris. Of course, earlier cites may exist. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 23:32:26 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:32:26 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062246.p76B0MxO010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I should mention too that although the "Rape of the Sabine Women" was alluded to in passing as something naughtily amusing, the numerous later allusions to the absurdly staged fake "rape" whose planning occupies much of the play were mostly or entirely replaced by the word "raid." (E.g., more or less, "What sort of a raid did you have in mind?") Also, the character who played a fake Indian was referred to as an "Indian" but later as "not really a Native American." JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "notorious" goes neutral > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > or > her body lingo. > > Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > than "Chairperson." > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Aug 6 23:58:59 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:58:59 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062231.p76AmUmA001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Joseph Salmons wrote: > > Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the > > American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some l > > length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's > > been fast. > > Are those discussions recorded? In AS? On-line? > > I suppose maybe "yum" + "nosh"? I covered _nom_ in "Among the New Words" (with Charles Carson) in the latest edition of American Speech (86:192-214). http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/content/vol86/issue2/index.dtl >From the introduction: "In the main category [of Word of the Year], _app_ beat out another three-letter word: _nom_, an onomatopoetic form suggesting pleasurable eating, used as an interjection, noun or verb. _Nom_ traveled from Sesame Street’s Cookie Monster (whose voracious noises are often represented as “om nom nom nom”) to the online images known as “lolcats,” and on to wider usage thanks in part to Twitter. Despite the seeming novelty of _nom_, it joins a well-established class of gustatory sound symbolism. The earliest examples catalogued by the Oxford English Dictionary derive from Caribbean English: _yam_ (1725), _nyam_ (1790), and _ninyam_ (1826). Of more recent vintage are _yum_ (1878), _yummy_ (1899), _num_ (1899), and _nummy_ (1923)." Citations are provided for _nom_, _nom nom_, _om nom nom_, _nom nom nom_, etc. The earliest we found is from 2002: 2002 June 30 Siobhan Perricone rec.food.cooking (Usenet newsgroup) http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/a6a350ac3a7492b9 I just slather on the butter thickly, and they never last long enough to get soggy. OM NOM NOM! --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Aug 7 00:21:30 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:21:30 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet Message-ID: Yes, soft lead Minie balls would expand somewhat on impact, but "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets which are designed for controlled expansion, which Minie balls were not. The modern Foster (or Forster) rifled slug for shotguns is the rough equivalent of the Minie, although the hollow base is intended to keep it flying nose first. How much they expand, typically fired at higher velocities than (US) Civil War muzzle-loading black powder rifles, is debatable. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet Nice try, Larry. But no. The writer may have been trying to say that a man shooting a rifle loaded with a Minie ball might fire accurately at 250 yards, but the ball could still be deadly at 500. That may be an understatement: Minie balls were .58-caliber, conical, and made of soft lead; in other words, huge dumdum bullets. JL On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 1, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> I think an argument could be made either way. > > > > You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes > > sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards > > is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? > > > > Do it, then. > > "effective" = 'achieving the intended purpose', in this case hitting the > intended target > "deadly" = 'resulting in death', not necessarily of the intended target > > My example in the earlier part of the excerpted e-mail was intended to > illustrate this possibility. Let's see…yes, > > "If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by > dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along > with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would > certainly > be deadly, but would it be effective?" > > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 01:31:21 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Postmodern" Message-ID: postmodern (OED 1917) 1916 _American Magazine of Art_ May 277 (JSTOR) GUS MAGER, one of the few "post" modern painters whose sincerity is convincing, was born in Newark at 1878 of parents born in Newark. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 01:48:38 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:48:38 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Interdisciplinary" Message-ID: interdisciplinary (OED 1937) 1931 _Library Quarterly_ July 292 (JSTOR) This relates to our present discussion by emphasizing the need for librarians to formulate interdisciplinary problems with reference to the present interests of the desired collaborator. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 01:56:32 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:56:32 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Zoning" Message-ID: zoning (OED, 2., 1912) 1911 _Town Planning Review_ Oct. 214 (JSTOR) The seventh session was on "Legal and Administrative Methods," conducted by A. W. Crawford, Assistant City Solicitor of Philadelphia. He pleaded the desirability of a Uniform City Planning Code; in particular calling for excess condemnation, the assessing of benefits on abutters, zoning, lex adickes, and the granting of much more power to the Board of Surveyors. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Aug 7 02:16:11 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:16:11 -0500 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108062151.p76B0pQX003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Doesn't "nom" have a connotation of gluttony that is lacking in "yum"? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Indigo Som > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 4:52 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Indigo Som > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > -- > Indigo Som > indigo at well.com > http://www.indigosom.com > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 02:35:12 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 22:35:12 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108070216.p76AmUt0001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I hear it nowadays as "num num!" I've also heard the transitional "nyum-nyum!" - for decades, I'm sure. JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Doesn't "nom" have a connotation of gluttony that is lacking in "yum"? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Indigo Som > > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 4:52 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Indigo Som > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > > -- > > Indigo Som > > indigo at well.com > > http://www.indigosom.com > > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Sun Aug 7 03:24:37 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 03:24:37 +0000 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062246.p76B0pRb003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's my impression that neutral "notoriety" is even more common. --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 6:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation or her body lingo. Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather than "Chairperson." "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 03:48:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:48:53 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062246.p76B0MxO010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Note too, ..., that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > than [as] "Chairperson." > Good for her! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 03:54:32 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:54:32 -0400 Subject: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] In-Reply-To: <201108062319.p76B0Mxg010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I believe his point is that the events of, leading up to, following, and > comprehensively connected with the September 11 attacks are, when you get > right down to it, of practically infinite diversity and complexity. � In > fact, no two people would or could give you the same summary, because the > topic is, on the one hand, � unknowable in its factual totality and, on the > other, utterly subjective in its meaning (Bush says bad, Bin Laden says > good. Who knows for sure? And why should I believe you if you try to answer > the question?) > > Thus, when you refer to the entire _gestalt_, or even part of it, as "Nine- > Eleven" or some other short hand that makes communication possible, you > don't know what you're talking about because you don't know all the details, > and you couldn't make final sense out of them if you did. > > So it all boils down to (yawn) just another game (or perhaps "narrative") in > the endless play of signs. > > I believe that D would say that *any* reaction or response is pathetically > irrational because none of us has the knowledge or ability to know the > "truth," assuming that there even is a "truth" to be known. > > There could be, but maybe not; and if there is, we can't establish it > anyway; and if "we" could - depending on who you mean by "we," kimosabe - > there's really no reason for the non-we "Other" - say at the Bin Laden > Compound or somewhere on Mars in the 39th century - to believe a word we > say. How can they trust "our" judgment?) > > So admit your ignorance and, assuming that any action at all can have a > truly rational basis, you can't really can't do any better than buying > more books by Derrida.) > > J.-F. Baudrillard observed something similar about what was absurdly called > the "1991 Gulf War." � Something presumably happened, but its totality had > only a minimal resemblance to the reporting and thinking about it. So, > strictly speaking, "the Gulf War (or 'Gulf War' if you're picky) did not > take place." > > What took place, if anything, was unknowable. � What's more, anything you > believe about it has been filtered and mediated repeatedly by those in or > with power, along with their lackeys and proxies. � So wise up and don't > believe a word of it. � Buy books by Baudrillard instead. > > I believe that similar postmodern solutions may be profitably applied to > issues of national security, defense policy, military strategy, nuclear > proliferation, and the like. > > They might work on the crummy economy too. � But whether they do or not may > have more to do with the inevitable consequences of the (alleged) Big Bang > than with anything anybody actually thinks up on their own. > > So let the good times roll! > Indeed.:-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 04:23:37 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 00:23:37 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108070022.p76B0M0a010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Dave Hause wrote: > "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets which are designed for controlled expansion "The 'dum-dum [bullet]' was a British military bullet developed for use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in the late 1890s. The [original] dum-dum [was] a jacketed .303[-calibre] bullet with the jacket's _nose open_ to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact. The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use of dum-dum bullets during warfare." http://goo.gl/qXjfX It's been written somewhere that this measure passed because it was realized that the dum-dum was more likely to cause a wound with immediately-fatal consequences than other types of bullets. Not good. Dead soldiers are not a problem. But _wounded_ soldiers? For them, you need a whole medical corps with doctors, nurses, medics, MASH's, etc., etc., etc. If you can make warfare a pain in the ass... [to have one's] nose open "to be totally infatuated" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 04:26:18 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 00:26:18 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108070235.p76B0M32010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I've also heard the transitional "nyum-nyum!" - _for decades, I'm sure_. I'm sure, too. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 08:28:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 04:28:52 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108061244.p76B0pIr003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > One nuance is obviously, "a very black person," not just a black person. Something along the lines of the way that black people say, "two shades blacker than Bell telephone" "black enough to leave a streak through tar" "Of Indian deacent, Choctaw. The lightest is chocolate, the darkest is tar" perhaps? Or do you have in mind what "tar-baby" means when white people use it, such as when - in literature, anyway, white people describe black people as "plum-blue; coal-black; purple-black; so black that even the whites of his eyes were brown"; "ebon-hued;" and it's not intended that the reader, of whatever subdivision of humanity, is should feel that any of this is meant to be other than a racial - and racist - slight? I've long felt that that was the case. But, Youneverknow. It's always pleasant to have your worst fears confirmed. Here, I've lived nearly three-quarters of a century without ever realizing before that, if a white person speaks or writes "tar-baby," he means it as an insult. Good to know! > My brothers and sister used to call me "tar baby." That would hurt me. Some black person is saying this, I take it? FWIW, certain members of my family used to call me stuff. That would hurt me. IAC, four documented examples of "tar-baby" outside of Harris's Meisterstueck! That has to prove something that *far* more meaningful than anything that I could undocumentedly say. But I can't figure out what it is. -- -Wilson Gray ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 11:55:49 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 07:55:49 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108070424.p76AmU42001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The moral's the same: don't get hit by a Minie ball. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Dave Hause wrote: > > "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets > which are designed for controlled expansion > > > "The 'dum-dum [bullet]' was a British military bullet developed for > use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in > the late 1890s. > > The [original] dum-dum [was] a jacketed .303[-calibre] bullet with the > jacket's _nose open_ to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve > the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact. > > The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or > hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use > of dum-dum bullets during warfare." > > http://goo.gl/qXjfX > > > It's been written somewhere that this measure passed because it was > realized that the dum-dum was more likely to cause a wound with > immediately-fatal consequences than other types of bullets. Not good. > Dead soldiers are not a problem. But _wounded_ soldiers? For them, you > need a whole medical corps with doctors, nurses, medics, MASH's, etc., > etc., etc. > > If you can make warfare a pain in the ass... > > > [to have one's] nose open "to be totally infatuated" > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 12:04:17 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 08:04:17 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108070829.p76AmU9m001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The relativistic nature of "tar baby" means your own personal race doesn't matter. There's always somebody else you can call "tar baby," and they'll hate it. Which is probably why such terms have survived. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 4:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > One nuance is obviously, "a very black person," not just a black person. > > Something along the lines of the way that black people say, > > "two shades blacker than Bell telephone" > "black enough to leave a streak through tar" > "Of Indian deacent, Choctaw. The lightest is chocolate, the darkest is tar" > > perhaps? > > Or do you have in mind what "tar-baby" means when white people use it, > such as when - in literature, anyway, white people describe black > people as "plum-blue; coal-black; purple-black; so black that even the > whites of his eyes were brown"; "ebon-hued;" and it's not intended > that the reader, of whatever subdivision of humanity, is should feel > that any of this is meant to be other than a racial - and racist - > slight? > > I've long felt that that was the case. But, > > Youneverknow. > > It's always pleasant to have your worst fears confirmed. Here, I've > lived nearly three-quarters of a century without ever realizing before > that, if a white person speaks or writes "tar-baby," he means it as an > insult. > > Good to know! > > > My brothers and sister used to call me "tar baby." That would hurt me. > > Some black person is saying this, I take it? > > FWIW, certain members of my family used to call me stuff. That would hurt > me. > > IAC, four documented examples of "tar-baby" outside of Harris's > Meisterstueck! That has to prove something that *far* more meaningful > than anything that I could undocumentedly say. But I can't figure out > what it is. > > -- > -Wilson Gray > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Sun Aug 7 12:30:42 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:30:42 -0300 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062332.p76B0M06010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Was she a native English speaker? Notorious in, for example, Portuguese (notorio) just means widely/generally known, without any negative implications. DAD -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter I should mention too that although the "Rape of the Sabine Women" was alluded to in passing as something naughtily amusing, the numerous later allusions to the absurdly staged fake "rape" whose planning occupies much of the play were mostly or entirely replaced by the word "raid." (E.g., more or less, "What sort of a raid did you have in mind?") Also, the character who played a fake Indian was referred to as an "Indian" but later as "not really a Native American." JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > : "notorious" goes neutral > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > or > her body lingo. > > Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > than "Chairperson." > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 7 13:17:13 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:17:13 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of >the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... > >Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather >than "Chairperson." One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as not to imply a particular sex." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:19:14 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:19:14 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108071231.p77Amutv009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Absolutely. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 8:30 AM, David A. Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "David A. Daniel" > Subject: Re: "notorious" goes neutral > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Was she a native English speaker? Notorious in, for example, Portuguese > (notorio) just means widely/generally known, without any negative > implications. > DAD > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Jonathan Lighter > > > > I should mention too that although the "Rape of the Sabine Women" was > alluded to in passing as something naughtily amusing, the numerous later > allusions to the absurdly staged fake "rape" whose planning occupies much > of > the play were mostly or entirely replaced by the word "raid." (E.g., more > or less, "What sort of a raid did you have in mind?") > > Also, the character who played a fake Indian was referred to as an "Indian" > but later as "not really a Native American." > > JL > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > > : "notorious" goes neutral > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > > or > > her body lingo. > > > > Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > > than "Chairperson." > > > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:28:29 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:28:29 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071317.p77As8h6025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. Or do I mean "gender"? JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > >the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... > > > >Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > >than "Chairperson." > > One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for > the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested > with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an > alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as > not to imply a particular sex." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 7 13:29:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:29:51 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > or > her body lingo. > ... > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' But it does, and did -- I. With neutral or favourable connotations. 1.b. Of a person, place, etc.: well or widely known; famous; (in later use) esp. noted for a particular quality or feature. [Quotations from 1555 to 1992.] I agree, however, that in 'Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_."', everyone today is likely to take it as -- II. With depreciative or unfavourable connotations. 5. Well known on account of something which is not generally approved of or admired; unfavourably known; noted for some bad practice, quality, etc. b. Of a person, place, etc. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:48:55 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108071155.p77Ap918009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ...or a Mickey ball... VS-) On 8/7/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The moral's the same: don't get hit by a Minie ball. > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Dave Hause wrote: >> > "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets >> which are designed for controlled expansion >> >> >> "The 'dum-dum [bullet]' was a British military bullet developed for >> use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in >> the late 1890s. >> >> The [original] dum-dum [was] a jacketed .303[-calibre] bullet with the >> jacket's _nose open_ to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve >> the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact. >> >> The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or >> hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use >> of dum-dum bullets during warfare." >> >> http://goo.gl/qXjfX >> >> >> It's been written somewhere that this measure passed because it was >> realized that the dum-dum was more likely to cause a wound with >> immediately-fatal consequences than other types of bullets. Not good. >> Dead soldiers are not a problem. But _wounded_ soldiers? For them, you >> need a whole medical corps with doctors, nurses, medics, MASH's, etc., >> etc., etc. >> >> If you can make warfare a pain in the ass... >> >> >> [to have one's] nose open "to be totally infatuated" >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:52:56 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:52:56 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071328.p77As8ho025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This discussion reminds me of Frank Herbert's "chairdogs"--"living furniture". I don't believe he ever mentioned gender. VS-) On 8/7/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be > "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. > > Or do I mean "gender"? > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of >> >the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... >> > >> >Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather >> >than "Chairperson." >> >> One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for >> the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested >> with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an >> alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as >> not to imply a particular sex." >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 14:09:05 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 10:09:05 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062359.p76AmUoQ001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This one is not before 2002 (2010), but might be of interest. And it does not imply gluttony ;-) http://books.google.com/books?id=K8qzZ7NWsvgC&pg=PA105 VS-) On 8/6/11, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> Joseph Salmons wrote: >> > Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the >> > American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some l >> > length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's >> > been fast. >> >> Are those discussions recorded? In AS? On-line? >> >> I suppose maybe "yum" + "nosh"? > > I covered _nom_ in "Among the New Words" (with Charles Carson) in the latest > edition of American Speech (86:192-214). > > http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/content/vol86/issue2/index.dtl > > From the introduction: > > "In the main category [of Word of the Year], _app_ beat out another > three-letter > word: _nom_, an onomatopoetic form suggesting pleasurable eating, used as an > interjection, noun or verb. _Nom_ traveled from Sesame Street’s Cookie > Monster > (whose voracious noises are often represented as “om nom nom nom”) to the > online images known as “lolcats,” and on to wider usage thanks in part to > Twitter. Despite the seeming novelty of _nom_, it joins a well-established > class of gustatory sound symbolism. The earliest examples catalogued by the > Oxford English Dictionary derive from Caribbean English: _yam_ (1725), > _nyam_ > (1790), and _ninyam_ (1826). Of more recent vintage are _yum_ (1878), > _yummy_ > (1899), _num_ (1899), and _nummy_ (1923)." > > Citations are provided for _nom_, _nom nom_, _om nom nom_, _nom nom nom_, > etc. > The earliest we found is from 2002: > > 2002 June 30 Siobhan Perricone rec.food.cooking (Usenet newsgroup) > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/a6a350ac3a7492b9 I > just > slather on the butter thickly, and they never last long enough to get soggy. > OM > NOM NOM! > > --bgz > > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Aug 7 15:00:56 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:00:56 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108071409.p77As8iQ025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:09 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > > On 8/6/11, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> I covered _nom_ in "Among the New Words" (with Charles Carson) in the latest >> edition of American Speech (86:192-214). >> >> http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/content/vol86/issue2/index.dtl [...] >> Citations are provided for _nom_, _nom nom_, _om nom nom_, _nom nom nom_, >> etc. The earliest we found is from 2002: >> >> 2002 June 30 Siobhan Perricone rec.food.cooking (Usenet newsgroup) >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/a6a350ac3a7492b9 I >> just slather on the butter thickly, and they never last long enough to get soggy. >> OM NOM NOM! > > This one is not before 2002 (2010), but might be of interest. And it > does not imply gluttony ;-) > > http://books.google.com/books?id=K8qzZ7NWsvgC&pg=PA105 Yes, we included that in the quotation paragraph for "nom" in "Among the New Words." See AmSp for more. (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 7 15:36:49 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:36:49 -0400 Subject: "hourly", noun, "public conveyance that runs every hour", antedated nearly 50 years Message-ID: Here is a vision of the future of New York City. It also offers a considerable antedating of one sense of "hourly" as a noun. It fails by one year to antedate one sense of "accommodation" as a noun, and "railroad" as a verb, but the current version of the "railroad" entry in OED -- I suppose that a revision is in hand even now -- has a nearly 20 year gap between the earliest and the second appearances. A rail road could be constructed through Broadway, so as not to prevent waggons, carts, and carriages from crossing at any particular point. *** If it were advisable to rail road busy streets and thorough fares, it would put out of use entirely the "accommodations" and "hourly," now employed. A person could pass from Wall street to the Ninth Ward in five minutes -- the extremities of the city would be brought as near as the different ends of a single ward -- and a large extensive city would, in regards to transportation, be as accessible from one point to another as the densest village. *** Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 3, 1830, p. 2, col. 3 accommodation (noun) 6 b. ellipt. for accommodation stage n., accommodation train n. at Compounds. U.S. 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania II. 9, I‥intended to take the Accommodation in the morning. 1877 ‘E. W. Martin’ Hist. Great Riots 117 The Sharpsville ‘accommodation’‥had been lying for two hours without an engine. 1891 C. Roberts Adrift in Amer. ii. 33 We went on what is called an ‘accommodation’, that is, a freight train with a passenger car at the end of it. hourly (adj) 2 b. as n. (U.S.) A public conveyance that runs every hour. 1877 J. R. Bartlett Dict. Americanisms (ed. 4) , Hourly, formerly used in and about Boston for an omnibus. 1881 Harper's Mag. Feb. 388 The terrors of the ‘hourly’ or omnibus. railroad, verb, 1829, 1848 railroad (verb) 1. trans. To construct railroads in (a country, etc.). Also fig. Now rare. 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania I. 123 They are canaling and rail-roading the whole country. 1848 E. Cook Poems (ed. 3) II. Pref. p. ix, The public mind seems nearly as much railroaded as the country. &c. -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 15:49:58 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:49:58 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071317.p77As8h6025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Doesn't this confuse the function of "chair" with the title of "chairman"? The chairman normally chairs the meeting. If someone else chairs the meeting, they have the chair. They are the Chair. They are even addressed directly as Mr. Chairman for the purpose of the meeting. Someone who temporarily becomes Chair at a board meeting, however, is not said to become Chairman of the Board. They occupy the Chair, they even assume the dignity of the chair temporarily, but they don't assume the title of chairman. DanG On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of >>the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... >> >>Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather >>than "Chairperson." > > One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for > the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested > with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an > alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as > not to imply a particular sex." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 15:59:24 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:59:24 -0400 Subject: "Narrative" again In-Reply-To: <201108062040.p76B0pOR003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A former Republican Congressman on CNN today: "Blaming 'right-wing Republicans' [for debt/deficit/budget difficulties] is a narrative that won't fly." I.e., a propaganda move. JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "Narrative" again > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In an article in today's NYTimes on the conviction of five New > Orleans police offers of unjustified shooting of six citizens just > after Hurricane Katrina, Campbell Robertson writes: > > "The trial was not only about these five officers but also > about what exactly happened in the weeks after the hurricane, a sort > of judgment on the initial widely held belief that the authorities > were trying to control elements of a citizenry run rampant. > > ":In the years since, that narrative has been qualified. While > some people did turn to crime and violence, it has become apparent > that some of the bloodshed and chaos was brought about by members of > the long-troubled Police Department." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 7 16:14:03 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 12:14:03 -0400 Subject: "professor" = piano-player Message-ID: I'm not keeping up with the state of the revision of the OED: is this a new entry? In any case, a 30 year antedating. *musical party. sixth avenue tavern*. *Near the corner of Greenwich Lane and Sixth Avenue*. *** A Professor will preside at the Piano Forte. Admittance 12½ cents, with a refreshment ticket. Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 14, 1830, p. 2, col. 7 5 *c.* *U.S.* *colloq.* A piano player in a saloon, brothel, dance hall, etc. Also: an orchestra leader. Now *hist.* 1860 ‘N. Buntline’ *Elfrida * lxxiv. 101/1 At one end of the room, elevated upon a low platform, was the ‘music’—consisting of the ill-tuned, or rather *untuned* piano aforementioned, and the ‘professor’, a very seedy-looking gentleman. 1895 *N.Y. Times * 21 Jan. 7/5 The perfesser only went out for a drink. He feels better now, and asks permission to play the pianner for an hour. 1914 *Chicago Daily Tribune * 19 July viii. 8/1, I will now address myself to the professor orchestra leader. I want, sir, a waltz, well done. Years ago, I heard an elderly Jazz musician interviewed on radio -- name forgotten. He had an appointment as artist-in-residence at the music dept. of a major university, a gig that he very much enjoyed, especially to see so many young people interested in the music, and som of them very talented. He was happy to think that jazz would be played and enjoyed for decades to come. ONe thing troubled him, though. The students were eager to talk to him after class, and they greeted him on campus, but they always addressed him as "Professor" -- now, when he was a young man, a professor was a man who played piano in a whore house, and so, to him, it was a term of disrepute. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 16:27:33 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 12:27:33 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108071330.p77Amuvj009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The OED may have missed the microsemantic boat here. All cites under 1b since 1865 are in the construction "notorious for." If I, for example, were to be described simply as "notorious," few people (even, I'd wager, in the erudite offices of the OED) would assume I was "notorious for [my] probity" or anything like it, as in the 1927 ex. from the American journalist and novelist Samuel Hopkins Adams (1871-1958), who graduated from college in 1891. _Cyrano de Bergerac_ and Edmond Rostand are not "notorious" in any readily predictable interpretation of the Chairman's quoted remarks. Even if I were to say, "Edmond Rostand is notorious *for his play*, _Cyrano de Bergerac_," without going on to detail (falsely) what a floperoo it was and how Rostand wound up in jail in the midst of riots, the statement would call attention to itself as thoroughly unidiomatic, at least without further negative clarification. But, of course, correct idiom is no substitute for faulty content. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "notorious" goes neutral > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter >wrote: > > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman > of > > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by > the > > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her > intonation > > or > > her body lingo. > > ... > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > But it does, and did -- > > I. With neutral or favourable connotations. > 1.b. Of a person, place, etc.: well or widely known; famous; (in > later use) esp. noted for a particular quality or > feature. [Quotations from 1555 to 1992.] > > I agree, however, that in 'Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano > de Bergerac_."', everyone today is likely to take it as -- > > II. With depreciative or unfavourable connotations. > 5. Well known on account of something which is not generally approved > of or admired; unfavourably known; noted for some bad practice, quality, > etc. > b. Of a person, place, etc. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 17:28:07 2011 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 12:28:07 -0500 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108070216.p76AmUt0001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've seen it on places like http://icanhascheezburger.com/?s=noms . The third picture down is usual usage. Didn't know it applied to people. Darla 2011/8/6 Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Doesn't "nom" have a connotation of gluttony that is lacking in "yum"? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Indigo Som > > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 4:52 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Indigo Som > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > > -- > > Indigo Som > > indigo at well.com > > http://www.indigosom.com > > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 21:44:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 17:44:25 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071328.p77As8ho025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be > "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. > > Or do I mean "gender"? > I'm in complete agreement with Jon. However, I realize that our opinions on these matters have very likely aged out of relevance. But, don't get biggety, young pepper-chests! Regardless of your current youthful relevance, you, too, have irrelevance in your futures and you'll be just as annoyed. My grandparents went to their graves pretending that the "bicycle," as this form of velocipede was known in my youth, was properly referred to only by the word, "wheel," to name only one. I, too, expect to go to my grave, annoyed by the manner in which people young enough to be my great-grandchildren are, even as I type, working to fuck up what was once a beautiful language, in the form in which it was bequeathed to me, ca. 1935-1965. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Sun Aug 7 22:03:52 2011 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:03:52 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108071511.p77AmuxV009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) "Nom" came up when I posted a photo to flickr of people at a National Organization for Marriage rally. Both I and a young employee of mine thought the acronym "NOM" was giggle-worthy, given the lolcat referent. (NOM is an anti-same-sex marriage organization. They use the phrase "traditional marriage" to denote mixed-sex monogamous marriage, which I find disingenuous.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 22:13:04 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:13:04 -0400 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) Message-ID: There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film "It’s a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): Yeah, and you’re crazy. I’ll be sober tomorrow, but you’ll be crazy the rest of your life. Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be crazy for the rest of your life. Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what’s more you are disgustingly drunk."] Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly. These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers Gale) A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day." The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the reference data that I have: Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the periodical: http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the anecdote that appeared here: Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen & Co., London. http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class of anecdotes. Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood & Co., New York. It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll be a hog to-morrow!" http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his life." http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. (Google Books full view) "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us – "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but I have not verified each one of these citations yet. If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would be very appreciative. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 22:16:16 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:16:16 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar with this usage for years. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: work 'plastic surgery' Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has undergone surgical improvement." --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 22:22:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:22:07 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' In-Reply-To: <201108072217.p77Ap9QE009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Me too. Ten years? More? JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar > with this usage for years. > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: work 'plastic surgery' > > Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such > discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary > either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had > some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has > undergone surgical improvement." > > --Charlie > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 22:55:20 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:55:20 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' In-Reply-To: <201108072222.p77As8re025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an unverified example from Google Books of the phrase "work done" being used to refer to plastic surgery I believe. WorldCat agrees with GB on the 1968 date. Date probes look ok. Below is the relevant extracted text: Title: The youth doctors Author: Patrick M. McGrady, Jr. Publisher: New York : Coward-McCann, c1968. I mentioned the name of a much-married actress whose silky-smooth face and coquettish, sexy allure have made her the darling of cafe' society, top-rated nightclubs, and an occasional Hollywood film. "She's had some work done, shall I put it that way?" replied one doctor. "She said she didn't, but she did." http://books.google.com/books?id=YPlqAAAAMAAJ&q=%22some+work%22#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=K6azAAAAIAAJ&q=%22but+she+did%22#search_anchor Note, GB dates are sometimes inaccurate and extracted text sometimes contains errors. But I think this example is probably legitimate. On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Me too. Ten years? More? > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar >> with this usage for years. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: work 'plastic surgery' >> >> Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such >> discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary >> either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had >> some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has >> undergone surgical improvement." >> >> --Charlie >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 23:04:50 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:04:50 -0400 Subject: "professor" = piano-player In-Reply-To: <201108071614.p77Ap9Aq009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just a comment: Thomas Busby, whose "A complete dictionary of music" is dated 1811 in GB, defines "Pianist" as "One who plays on the piano-forte; a professor of that instrument", so the connection of a professor and a piano player seems to go back further in time. DanG On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 12:14 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: "professor" = piano-player > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm not keeping up with the state of the revision of the OED: is this a new > entry? In any case, a 30 year antedating. > > *musical party. sixth avenue tavern*. *Near the corner of Greenwich > Lane and Sixth Avenue*. *** A Professor will preside at the Piano > Forte. Admittance > 12=BD cents, with a refreshment ticket. > Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 14, 1830, p. 2, col. 7 > 5 *c.* *U.S.* *colloq.* A piano player in a saloon, brothel, dance hall, > etc. Also: an orchestra leader. Now *hist.* > 1860 =91N. Buntline=92 > *Elfrida 1X7&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue> > * lxxiv. 101/1 At one end of the room, elevated upon a low platform, was > the =91music=92=97consisting of the ill-tuned, or rather *untuned* piano > aforementioned, and the =91professor=92, a very seedy-looking gentleman. > 1895 *N.Y. Times rskey=3DFE71X7&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue> > * 21 Jan. 7/5 The perfesser only went out for a drink. He feels better > now, and asks permission to play the pianner for an hour. > 1914 *Chicago Daily > Tribune X7&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue> > * 19 July viii. 8/1, I will now address myself to the professor orchestra > leader. I want, sir, a waltz, well done. > > Years ago, I heard an elderly Jazz musician interviewed on radio -- name > forgotten. He had an appointment as artist-in-residence at the music dept. > of a major university, a gig that he very much enjoyed, especially to see s= > o > many young people interested in the music, and som of them very talented. > He was happy to think that jazz would be played and enjoyed for decades to > come. ONe thing troubled him, though. The students were eager to talk to > him after class, and they greeted him on campus, but they always addressed > him as "Professor" -- now, when he was a young man, a professor was a man > who played piano in a whore house, and so, to him, it was a term of > disrepute. > > GAT > > --=20 > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ= > . > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 23:34:15 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:34:15 -0400 Subject: "hourly", noun, "public conveyance that runs every hour", antedated nearly 50 years In-Reply-To: <201108071537.p77Ap99K009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to hopstop.com, it actually takes six minutes to get from Rector St to Houston St. (the southern border of the Ninth Ward, which roughly corresponds to the West Village) . DanG On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:36 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: "hourly", noun, "public conveyance that runs every hour", > antedated nearly 50 years > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here is a vision of the future of New York City. > It also offers a considerable antedating of one sense of "hourly" as a noun= > . > It fails by one year to antedate one sense of "accommodation" as a noun, > and "railroad" as a verb, but the current version of the "railroad" entry i= > n > OED -- I suppose that a revision is in hand even now -- has a nearly 20 yea= > r > gap between the earliest and the second appearances. > > A rail road could be constructed through Broadway, so as not to prevent > waggons, carts, and carriages from crossing at any particular point. *** = > If > it were advisable to rail road busy streets and thorough fares, it would pu= > t > out of use entirely the "accommodations" and "hourly," now employed. A > person could pass from Wall street to the Ninth Ward in five minutes -- the > extremities of the city would be brought as near as the different ends of a > single ward -- and a large extensive city would, in regards to > transportation, be as accessible from one point to another as the densest > village. *** > > Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 3, 1830, p. 2, > col. 3 > > > > accommodation (noun) 6 b. ellipt. for accommodation stage > n. lt=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue#eid115646587>, > accommodation train n. at > Compounds hJ&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue#eid115646589>. > U.S. > > 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania II. 9, I=E2=80=A5intended to take the Acco= > mmodation > in the morning. > > 1877 =E2=80=98E. W. Martin=E2=80=99 Hist. Great Riots 117 The Sharpsvi= > lle > =E2=80=98accommodation=E2=80=99=E2=80=A5had been lying for two hours withou= > t an engine. > > 1891 C. Roberts Adrift in Amer. ii. 33 We went on what is called an > =E2=80=98accommodation=E2=80=99, that is, a freight train with a passenger = > car at the end of > it. > > > > hourly (adj) 2 b. as n. (U.S.) A public conveyance that run= > s > every hour. > > 1877 J. R. Bartlett Dict. Americanisms (ed. 4) , Hourly, formerly used > in and about Boston for an omnibus. > > 1881 Harper's Mag. Feb. 388 The terrors of the =E2=80=98hourly=E2=80= > =99 or omnibus. > > railroad, verb, 1829, 1848 > > > > railroad (verb) 1. trans. To construct railroads in (a country, etc.). Also > fig. Now rare. > > 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania I. 123 They are canaling and rail-roading > the whole country. > > 1848 E. Cook Poems (ed. 3) II. Pref. p. ix, The public mind seems > nearly as much railroaded as the country. > > &c. > > --=20 > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ= > . > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 00:11:22 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 20:11:22 -0400 Subject: Opinion piece in NYT: When Data Disappears Message-ID: On August 6th the New York Times published an op-ed on the very important topic of digital preservation. Here is a link for individuals who are able to access the NYT. Future research on the evolution of language will depend on the proper preservation of text and other data that is being created and disseminated now in digital form. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/opinion/sunday/when-data-disappears.html Is there a position paper from the American Dialect Society on this topic? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 01:08:06 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:08:06 -0400 Subject: steep learning curve Message-ID: In one of Bones episodes (sorry, not sure which one, but not recent), one character says to another, "But you got a steep learning curve," implying that the other character learns quickly. IME the only use of "steep learning curve" in education circles is nearly the opposite--it's not a "who", but a "what"--something that is very difficult to learn. In fact, I do not recall "learning curve" applying to an individual in any education research literature that I can recall--it's concepts that have learning curves, not people. If I'm biased on this account, I certainly would like to know that. (I just checked with another education researcher and got a confirmation.) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 01:19:28 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:19:28 -0400 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) In-Reply-To: <201108072213.p77As8rG025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The version with Churchill--along with Samuel Johnson and other attributions--that I heard was much simpler. X [woman] expresses her outrage that Y [man] is drunk. Y responds, "That is undeniably true, mam. But, in the morning, I shall be sober and you will still be ugly." Another somewhat related anecdote also involves Samuel Johnson--or some other large, profusely sweating man. The story claims, Johnson was walking in a garden (presumably some sort of public garden) and, being tired, sat down on a bench. An old woman, already sitting on the bench, exclaimed, "Fee! Sir, you SMELL!" This was met with a reply, "No, ma'am! *You* smell, *I* stink!". VS-) On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is > attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is > the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film > "It’s a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and > not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of > Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): > > Yeah, and you’re crazy. I’ll be sober tomorrow, but you’ll be crazy > the rest of your life. > > Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be > crazy for the rest of your life. > > Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The > Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words > are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who > described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: > > [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what’s more you are > disgustingly drunk."] > Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what’s more, you are disgustingly > ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly > ugly. > > These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest > instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. > > Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, > Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers > Gale) > > A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on > foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace > yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said > the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, > "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are > drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have > the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will > remain the fool you are to-day." > > The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called > "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the > reference data that I have: > Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. > > Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I > found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date > is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the > periodical: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& > > This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the > anecdote that appeared here: > > Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of > Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen & Co., London. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& > > > For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class > of anecdotes. > > Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade > Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood & Co., New York. > > It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a > Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear > door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the > gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied > by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, > offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk > to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who > had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll > be a hog to-morrow!" > > http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& > > > Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. > > Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, > Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. > > Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally > ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the > other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." > > He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which > the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober > to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his > life." > > http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& > > > In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert > Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the > 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the > earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: > > Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, > [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. > (Google Books full view) > > "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt > Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks > Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone > platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us – > > "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down > to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I > am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about > that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." > -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- > "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall > be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and > you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' > > There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but > I have not verified each one of these citations yet. > > If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would > be very appreciative. > > Garson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 01:57:27 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:57:27 -0400 Subject: steep learning curve In-Reply-To: <201108080108.p77AmuGZ009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor Steinbok wrote: > In one of Bones episodes (sorry, not sure which one, but not recent), one > character says to another, "But you got a steep learning curve," implying > that the other character learns quickly. IME the only use of "steep learning > curve" in education circles is nearly the opposite--it's not a "who", but a > "what"--something that is very difficult to learn. In fact, I do not recall > "learning curve" applying to an individual in any education research > literature that I can recall--it's concepts that have learning curves, not > people. If I'm biased on this account, I certainly would like to know that. > (I just checked with another education researcher and got a confirmation.) Here is an example of "learning curve" applied to an individual instead of a subject by researchers in learning. (I am not completely sure this cite is dated 1979 because the GB preview blocks the copyright date page. WorldCat gives a 1979 date and it doesn't look like a revision.) Theory and practice of early reading: Volume 3 Lauren B. Resnick, Phyllis A. Weaver, Page 370 Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Hillsdale, N.J. (Google Books preview) Two children might, in other words, start out in the same position, but one would show a steep learning curve, the other a flat and extended one. Both children could, with enough patient instruction and practice, reach "criterion," but we would not be likely to consider them equally difficult to teach. Similar differences in learning rates — for children who have virtually ... http://books.google.com/books?id=1pGp5kapFJAC&q=curve#v=snippet& Here is another example example of "learning curve" applied to an individual in an unverified GB snippet. The Sport psychologist: Volume 19 International Society of Sports Psychology - 2005 - Snippet view .. that acknowledging what one does not know is important; but be mindful that a consultant needs a steep learning curve and must be a quick study. Elite performers are not very impressed with those who don't improve or learn quickly. My experiences with the term "steep learning curve" are similar to Victor's. I have typically heard it used in the following way: Subject X has a steep learning curve means subject X is difficult to learn about. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Aug 8 03:22:48 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 23:22:48 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom Message-ID: One of the linguists I follow on Twitter (I forget now which one) wrote about tabulating nominalizations in some text. She was amused because she got to write "NOM NOM NOM" all over the paper. Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Burlingham" To: Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 6:03 PM Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > >> (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) > > "Nom" came up when I posted a photo to flickr of people at a National > Organization for Marriage rally. Both I and a young employee of mine > thought the acronym "NOM" was giggle-worthy, given the lolcat > referent. (NOM is an anti-same-sex marriage organization. They use the > phrase "traditional marriage" to denote mixed-sex monogamous marriage, > which I find disingenuous.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Mon Aug 8 03:25:23 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 04:25:23 +0100 Subject: steep learning curve In-Reply-To: <201108080157.p77As8uO025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: << My experiences with the term "steep learning curve" are similar to Victor's. I have typically heard it used in the following way: Subject X has a steep learning curve means subject X is difficult to learn about. Garson >> I usually associate it with computer programs -- frinstance, any database program involves a steep learning curve compared to any spreadsheet program. (This particular example as the core 95% of even the most sophisticated spreadsheet program is simply Visicalc with bells added.) Robin ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 8 11:36:18 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 07:36:18 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Argot" Message-ID: argot (OED 1860) 1842 _Mirror of Literature, Amusement, and Instruction_ 14 June 478 (British Periodicals) [quoting a book by J. E. Wakefield] Their [New Zealand whalers'] whole language in fact is an _argot_, or slang, almost unintelligible to a stranger. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 8 14:58:54 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 09:58:54 -0500 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108072213.p77Ap9Q6009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE In the 1970s, when (to my teenage mind) National Lampoon was really funny, they had a short piece along the lines of: THE QUOTABLE WINSTON CHURCHILL Bessie Braddock: Mr. Churchill. You, sir, are drunk. Winston Churchill: Fuck off, you cunt. Lady Astor: Mr. Churchill, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea. Winston Churchill: Blow me, bitch. George Bernard Shaw: Here are two tickets for my new play. Bring a friend, if you have one. Winston Churchill: Suck my dick, Bernie. Etc., etc., etc. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 5:13 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, > whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples > by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to- > morrow, > whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) > (Later > examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is > attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is > the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film > "It's a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and > not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of > Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): > > Yeah, and you're crazy. I'll be sober tomorrow, but you'll be crazy > the rest of your life. > > Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be > crazy for the rest of your life. > > Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The > Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words > are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who > described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: > > [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what's more you are > disgustingly drunk."] > Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what's more, you are disgustingly > ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly > ugly. > > These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest > instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. > > Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, > Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers > Gale) > > A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on > foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace > yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said > the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, > "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are > drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have > the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will > remain the fool you are to-day." > > The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called > "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the > reference data that I have: > Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. > > Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I > found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date > is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the > periodical: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& > > This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the > anecdote that appeared here: > > Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of > Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen & Co., London. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe > t& > > > For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class > of anecdotes. > > Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade > Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood & Co., New York. > > It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a > Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear > door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the > gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied > by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, > offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk > to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who > had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll > be a hog to-morrow!" > > http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe > t& > > > Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. > > Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, > Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. > > Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally > ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the > other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." > > He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which > the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober > to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his > life." > > http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe > t& > > > In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert > Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the > 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the > earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: > > Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, > [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. > (Google Books full view) > > "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt > Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks > Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone > platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us - > > "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down > to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I > am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about > that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." > -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- > "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall > be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and > you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' > > There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but > I have not verified each one of these citations yet. > > If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would > be very appreciative. > > Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Aug 8 15:27:03 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 10:27:03 -0500 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul Johnson Back in the sixties when I was tending bar in a local meat market, a pretty young thing made some sort of stupid comment along the lines of. "I think the Cubs will win the pennant by two polos" A drunken customer awoken from his stupor by the inaneness of her comment; looked us, moved his head in and out to get her in focus and said, :You ain't that fucking pretty to be that fucking stupid" Interestingly the girl was more upset with having her looks critiqued than her brains. I bought the drunk another dring On 8/8/2011 9:58 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > In the 1970s, when (to my teenage mind) National Lampoon was really > funny, they had a short piece along the lines of: > > > THE QUOTABLE WINSTON CHURCHILL > > > Bessie Braddock: Mr. Churchill. You, sir, are drunk. > Winston Churchill: Fuck off, you cunt. > > > > Lady Astor: Mr. Churchill, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea. > Winston Churchill: Blow me, bitch. > > > > George Bernard Shaw: Here are two tickets for my new play. Bring a > friend, if you have one. > Winston Churchill: Suck my dick, Bernie. > > > > > Etc., etc., etc. > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Garson O'Toole >> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 5:13 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, >> whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later > examples >> by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > --------------- >> -------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Garson O'Toole >> Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to- >> morrow, >> whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) >> (Later >> examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is >> attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is >> the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film >> "It's a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and >> not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of >> Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): >> >> Yeah, and you're crazy. I'll be sober tomorrow, but you'll be crazy >> the rest of your life. >> >> Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be >> crazy for the rest of your life. >> >> Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The >> Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words >> are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who >> described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: >> >> [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what's more you are >> disgustingly drunk."] >> Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what's more, you are disgustingly >> ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly >> ugly. >> >> These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest >> instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. >> >> Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, >> Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers >> Gale) >> >> A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on >> foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace >> yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said >> the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, >> "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are >> drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have >> the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will >> remain the fool you are to-day." >> >> The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called >> "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the >> reference data that I have: >> Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. >> >> Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I >> found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date >> is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the >> periodical: >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& >> >> This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the >> anecdote that appeared here: >> >> Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of >> Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen& Co., London. >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe >> t& >> >> >> For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class >> of anecdotes. >> >> Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade >> Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood& Co., New York. >> >> It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a >> Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear >> door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the >> gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied >> by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, >> offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk >> to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who >> had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll >> be a hog to-morrow!" >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe >> t& >> >> >> Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. >> >> Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, >> Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. >> >> Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally >> ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the >> other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." >> >> He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which >> the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober >> to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his >> life." >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe >> t& >> >> >> In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert >> Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the >> 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the >> earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: >> >> Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, >> [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. >> (Google Books full view) >> >> "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt >> Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks >> Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone >> platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us - >> >> "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down >> to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I >> am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about >> that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." >> -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- >> "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall >> be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and >> you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' >> >> There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but >> I have not verified each one of these citations yet. >> >> If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would >> be very appreciative. >> >> Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- To live in the hearts we leave behind is not to die. Thomas Campbell ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 20:14:46 2011 From: bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM (Bethany Dumas) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 16:14:46 -0400 Subject: Terry Irons Message-ID: I just learned that Terry Irons (Morehead State University) died on August 3. His obituary is at http://themoreheadnews.com/obituaries/x850291112/Dr-Terry-Irons Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 8 21:17:00 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:17:00 +0000 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 21:45:51 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 17:45:51 -0400 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108082118.p78AnHGB019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A butt e-mail? BTW, does OED have this sense of "butt" to mean "sent from my smartphone while in my pocket"? DanG On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ron Butters > Subject: Re: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, > whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later > examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 02:01:51 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:01:51 -0400 Subject: Journalism Motto: A dog bites a man - that's a story; A man bites a dog - that's a good story (1899) Message-ID: Barry Popik's invaluable website has an entry from 2005 for a famous saying about journalism. He found a great 1902 citation. 28 December 1902, Decatur (IL) Daily Review, pg. 7, col. 4: In the city editor's instructions to the news reporter he said: "If a man bites a dog it's news, if a dog bites a man it isn't." http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/man_bites_dog/ The Yale Book of Quotations has this 1902 citation and also includes a 1917 attribution for Charles A. Dana. The OED has an entry for man-bites-dog that lists a 1918 attribution of a version of the saying to newspaper editor John Bogart. Oxford Dictionary of Quotations provides a 1917 attribution for Charles A. Dana, and states "earlier sources do not attribute to a specific individual." The Oxford Dictionary of Modern Quotations lists a 1918 attribution for John Bogart. Here is a citation in 1899 that uses different phrasing. The "dog bites a man" tale is not dismissed as non-news. Indeed, "a dog bites man" is "a story." But it is clearly inferior to "a man bites a dog" which is labeled a "good story." (Charles Doyle may have already found this when he was searching for the upcoming Yale Book of Modern Proverbs; unless the 1899 date knocks it out of the book.) Cite: 1899, The Stolen Story and Other Newspaper Stories by Jesse Lynch Williams, The Old Reporter, Start Page 215, Quote Page 223, Charles Scribner's Sons, New York. (Google Books full view) "No wonder he can make anybody talk about everything," thought the new reporters, while the old one went on in his rapid style, "You'll soon assimilate the idea. Now, for instance, 'A dog bites a man' - that's a story; 'A man bites a dog' - that's a good story," etc., ... Here is a bonus citation: In 1852 a text called "The Popular Educator" contained a section under the category "Lessons in Latin." Sentences were analyzed into the parts: SUBJECT and PREDICATE. The PREDICATE was further split into COPULA and OBJECT. Two sentences in English were examined in succession: Cite: 1852, The Popular Educator: Volume The First, Page 55, John Cassell, London. (Google Books full view) Revert now to the simple sentence, The dog bit a man and turn the sentence, thus: The man bit a dog http://books.google.com/books?id=JjACAAAAQAAJ&q=%22man+bit%22#v=snippet& Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 08:29:31 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 01:29:31 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090637.p7946KeT017883@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = >> 1992-1999 search is working.=20 >> >> 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = >> (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = >> Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: >> >> ----- >> that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = >> stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = >> policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = >> world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = >> here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = >> 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. >> ----- >> >> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: >> ----- >> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = >> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = >> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." >> ----- > > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck > off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more > than you can say "fuck it off." It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 9 02:50:32 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:50:32 -0400 Subject: "the Rampture" Message-ID: First there was "Carmageddon," and now there's "the Rampture" -- the predicted chaos in Los Angeles ensuing from the closure of Wilshire Boulevard on- and off-ramps to the 405. http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/08/rampture_405_closure_wilshire_ramps.php --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 06:36:20 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 02:36:20 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090522.p7916Pcv019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Benjamin Barrett > Subject: � � � Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = > 1992-1999 search is working.=20 > > 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > > ----- > that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = > world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = > here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = > 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. > ----- > > 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > ----- > We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = > be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > ----- > > 3. On that same day, Charles F Juengling reports "sluff off" meaning "be = > lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard." > > 4. The following day, Lew Sanborne lsanbore reports "we used "sluff" to = > mean "ditched school," and also in "sluff off," meaning to slack off, or = > to not do what one should have been doing." > > 5. The Urban Dictionary = > (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=3Dsluff) has a slew of = > definitions for "sluff," including: "Used most commonly in the Western = > U.S., sluffing (probably derived from the word 'to slough') is = > synonymous with skipping class, cutting class, or ditching class." One = > example given by a different person is "Dude, your such a sluff! " One = > other relevant definition and example is: "When your drug dealer is late = > in delivering the goods / Damn, I was supposed to get hooked up an hour = > ago, why does Joe have to sluff?" > > These meanings of sluff and sluff off are not in the OED, nor is sluffer = > (an alternative to "sluff" as a person). > > 6. With one possible exception, the earliest citation I see on Google = > for "sluffer" (being the easiest to search for, though probably a = > derivative of "sluff") is 1 February 2001 and it has the verb "sluff" as = > well:=20 > > ----- > One who sluffs off because he's in a small church or position will = > likely not have the opportunity to handle a bigger church or more = > responsible position. > > One who is growing is getting better and better at things, able to = > handle a bigger and more responsible load. He's not a sluffer or parker. > > (http://www.stevedavis.org/chapter%2019.html) > ----- > > 7. That possible exception is from 1924 in "The Field Artillery = > Journal," January-February edition, in a poem and is repeated in the = > poem: > > ----- > I'm a slouch and a slop and a sluffer,=20 > And my ears they are covered with hair,=20 > And I frequent inhabit the guardhouse,=20 > I'll be "priv." until "fini la guerre." > > = > (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1924/JAN_FEB_1924/JAN_FEB_1924_FULL_EDITIO= > N.pdf) > ----- > > This seems to match the meaning, but is so far removed in time from all = > the other hits that it seems dubious. Could this have been military = > slang that surfaced in Lance's wife's high school in the 1960s? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more than you can say "fuck it off." He was getting good grades / doing well at work, till he started sluffing off / fucking off. Transitive "sluff" - without "off" - has the same meaning as "discard" in the playing-bridge-or-any-other-variant-of-whist sense. "Playing hooky" is, 99.44% of the time, from pre-school through grad school, "cutting school" / "cutting class." Occasionally, it's "hook": "hook school / hook class" = "cut school" / cut class." AFAIK, the use of "cut school" or "hook school" instead of "play hooky" was/is? peculiar to St. Louis BE, likewise WRT _sluff_ "discard" as a useful strategy in a game of whist. Till I read Benjamin's post, I was unaware of the existence of the spelling, _sluff_. I would have written only _slough_ for any meaning of [sl^f] whatever, had the occasion to do that ever arisen. Youneverknow. BTW, my spell-check doesn't recognize _sluff_, either. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 05:21:57 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:21:57 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off Message-ID: The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the 1992-1999 search is working. 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: ----- that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. ----- 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: ----- We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." ----- 3. On that same day, Charles F Juengling reports "sluff off" meaning "be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard." 4. The following day, Lew Sanborne lsanbore reports "we used "sluff" to mean "ditched school," and also in "sluff off," meaning to slack off, or to not do what one should have been doing." 5. The Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sluff) has a slew of definitions for "sluff," including: "Used most commonly in the Western U.S., sluffing (probably derived from the word 'to slough') is synonymous with skipping class, cutting class, or ditching class." One example given by a different person is "Dude, your such a sluff! " One other relevant definition and example is: "When your drug dealer is late in delivering the goods / Damn, I was supposed to get hooked up an hour ago, why does Joe have to sluff?" These meanings of sluff and sluff off are not in the OED, nor is sluffer (an alternative to "sluff" as a person). 6. With one possible exception, the earliest citation I see on Google for "sluffer" (being the easiest to search for, though probably a derivative of "sluff") is 1 February 2001 and it has the verb "sluff" as well: ----- One who sluffs off because he's in a small church or position will likely not have the opportunity to handle a bigger church or more responsible position. One who is growing is getting better and better at things, able to handle a bigger and more responsible load. He's not a sluffer or parker. (http://www.stevedavis.org/chapter%2019.html) ----- 7. That possible exception is from 1924 in "The Field Artillery Journal," January-February edition, in a poem and is repeated in the poem: ----- I'm a slouch and a slop and a sluffer, And my ears they are covered with hair, And I frequent inhabit the guardhouse, I'll be "priv." until "fini la guerre." (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1924/JAN_FEB_1924/JAN_FEB_1924_FULL_EDITION.pdf) ----- This seems to match the meaning, but is so far removed in time from all the other hits that it seems dubious. Could this have been military slang that surfaced in Lance's wife's high school in the 1960s? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 04:46:08 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 00:46:08 -0400 Subject: "Some taxicab run _me_ right over my foot." [NT] Message-ID: meh -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 12:56:16 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 08:56:16 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090829.p7946Khl017883@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can "slough off" anything I want, just like a snake sloughs (off) its skin. It's like shrugging it off. OTOH, it isn't an expression I use more than once every twenty or thirty years. I can't say I'm familiar with "sloughing school," however. If "sluffer" was ever "army slang," few people could have used it. I find no trace of it anywhere else. A "sluffer" would simply be someone who sloughs things off, i.e., ignores what must be tended to. JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = > >> 1992-1999 search is working.=20 > >> > >> 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > >> (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > >> Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > >> > >> ----- > >> that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > >> stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > >> policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = > >> world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = > >> here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = > >> 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. > >> ----- > >> > >> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > >> ----- > >> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to > = > >> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > >> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > >> ----- > > > > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck > > off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more > > than you can say "fuck it off." > > It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. > > BB > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 13:51:55 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 09:51:55 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <1FE5E4D5-4FEC-42F9-B524-47D4E115DF17@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 04:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >... [quoting Ben] > >> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > >> ----- > >> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = > >> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > >> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > >> ----- > > [Quoting Wilson] > > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck > > off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more > > than you can say "fuck it off." > >It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. I could say it, if "sluff" were in my vocabulary with respect to homework (it now is, thanks to Ben, but it wasn't then). And aren't most of the examples of "sluff v." in the OED transitive "sluff off "s? -- 1964 N.Y. Times Mag. 6 Dec. 20 Its water-repellent finish sluffs off snow. 1966 J. Dos Passos Best Times (1968) ii. 56, I had sluffed off Harvard indifference, but Harvard snobbery still hung on. 1972 New York 8 May 43/3 His [sc. a dog's] shedding mechanism, which now goes about building up and sluffing off the coat. [This is the kind of example I would think of first -- and even say if I had a dog ... or a snake.] 1972 Village Voice (N.Y.) 1 June 50/4 When I consulted a urologist he complained that he was sick of other doctors sluffing the problem off on him all the time. 1976 National Skat & Sheepshead Q. Mar. 5 The picker sluffed off the club king. 1980 Amer. Speech 55 210 Black jazzmen returned to the linguistic roots of their art which had been sidetracked and sluffed off in the bebop/bop movement of the 1940s. In ...uhm, whist today, from reading bridge columns I think "sluff" is more common, or only, without "off", as in 1978 Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 East is now squeezed in the red suits­he must either give up a trick to the jack of hearts or sluff two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 15:55:35 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 11:55:35 -0400 Subject: "The Bob Edwards Show" Message-ID: A poster on another listserv mentions this satellite-radio program as the sometime source of "interesting discussions on language." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 16:43:09 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:43:09 -0400 Subject: Semantic drift: pornographic = 'characterized in any way by sexual acts' Message-ID: "In Session" reported two or three days ago that jurors at Warren Jeffs' trial heard evidence in the form of "a pornographic tape." The tape had "no speaking or conversation, just grunts and groans" which the State of Texas maintained were proof of sexual activity. (The tape was made by Jeffs, not purchased as pornography.) Today they reported that Jeffs used to frequent "pornographic clubs" in various cities. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 16:56:59 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 09:56:59 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091256.p79AlV3j006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for snakes, I don't have that connection. I can understand the etymological connection but have trouble seeing "sloughing off its skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get back to work." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 9, 2011, at 5:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I can "slough off" anything I want, just like a snake sloughs (off) its > skin. It's like shrugging it off. > > OTOH, it isn't an expression I use more than once every twenty or thirty > years. > > I can't say I'm familiar with "sloughing school," however. > > If "sluffer" was ever "army slang," few people could have used it. I > find no trace of it anywhere else. A "sluffer" would simply be someone who > sloughs things off, i.e., ignores what must be tended to. > > JL > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett >> wrote: >>>> The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = >>>> 1992-1999 search is working.=20 >>>> >>>> 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = >>>> (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = >>>> Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = >>>> stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = >>>> policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = >>>> world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = >>>> here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = >>>> 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: >>>> ----- >>>> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to >> = >>>> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = >>>> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." >>>> ----- >>> >>> FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck >>> off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more >>> than you can say "fuck it off." >> >> It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. >> >> BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 17:04:03 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 10:04:03 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091352.p79AlVIZ006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 04:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> ... [quoting Ben] >>>> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: >>>> ----- >>>> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = >>>> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = >>>> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." >>>> ----- >>> [Quoting Wilson] >>> FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck >>> off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more >>> than you can say "fuck it off." >> >> It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. > > I could say it, if "sluff" were in my vocabulary > with respect to homework (it now is, thanks to > Ben, but it wasn't then). And aren't most of the > examples of "sluff v." in the OED transitive "sluff off "s? -- > > 1964 N.Y. Times Mag. 6 Dec. 20 Its water-repellent finish sluffs off snow. > 1966 J. Dos Passos Best Times (1968) ii. > 56, I had sluffed off Harvard indifference, but > Harvard snobbery still hung on. > 1972 New York 8 May 43/3 His [sc. a dog's] > shedding mechanism, which now goes about building > up and sluffing off the coat. [This is the kind > of example I would think of first -- and even say > if I had a dog ... or a snake.] > 1972 Village Voice (N.Y.) 1 June 50/4 When I > consulted a urologist he complained that he was > sick of other doctors sluffing the problem off on him all the time. > 1976 National Skat & Sheepshead Q. Mar. > 5 The picker sluffed off the club king. > 1980 Amer. Speech 55 210 Black jazzmen > returned to the linguistic roots of their art > which had been sidetracked and sluffed off in the > bebop/bop movement of the 1940s. > > In ...uhm, whist today, from reading bridge > columns I think "sluff" is more common, or only, without "off", as in > > 1978 Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 East > is now squeezed in the red suits–he must either > give up a trick to the jack of hearts or sluff > two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > > Joel I'm familiar with sluffing in hearts, never with "off", but since the other examples I cited are intransitive (along the lines of Wilson above), they do not have the same feel as this. It's not that you're "sluffing off work" but that you are just "sluffing (off)." I think another meaning in the entry is warranted. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 17:36:31 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:36:31 -0400 Subject: *Again* with the wrong word! Message-ID: Did anyone else notice Colbert's use of "hobo-satchel" in place of _bindle_ ? -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 17:47:35 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:47:35 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091352.p79AuU35030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > 1978 � � Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 � East > is now squeezed in the red suits虐e must either > give up a trick to the jack of hearts or _sluff_ > two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a BE thing! I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton Curtain. You really *do* never know! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 18:12:42 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 11:12:42 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091748.p79FaCQ7006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 10:47 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> 1978   Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3  East >> is now squeezed in the red suitsè˙∆e must either >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or > > _sluff_ > >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. >> > > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a BE thing! > > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton > Curtain. You really *do* never know! I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players to set themselves up to be able to sluff. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Aug 9 18:37:24 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 19:37:24 +0100 Subject: "The Bob Edwards Show" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A poster on another listserv mentions this satellite-radio program as > the sometime source of "interesting discussions on language." I used to do pieces on language for the Bob Edwards Show. Perhaps the poster meant those. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 18:47:39 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:47:39 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - now "hearts" In-Reply-To: <59519FE3-A9AB-44C7-A100-71FED35E1529@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 02:12 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one >we usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white >and born in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. > >As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and >get rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows >players to set themselves up to be able to sluff. I used to play hearts, but I don't recall hearing "slough/sluff" with it (New York/New Engand). Dangerous cards, such as high hearts, might be "passed" or "passed off" to one's neighbor. And during play, hears were not passively sluffed, but rather forcefully and venomously imposed on the trick-winner. (Nothing to do with snakeskin, however.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 18:52:24 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:52:24 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >snakes, I don't have that connection. I can understand the >etymological connection but have trouble seeing "sloughing off its >skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get >back to work." I didn't mean to slight "sluffing" of homework -- I agree that an additional sense may be warranted. I just wanted to assert that "sluff off" transitive did not seem odd to me. Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Aug 9 18:53:05 2011 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:53:05 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - now "hearts" In-Reply-To: <201108091847.p79IldSj002377@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/9/11 2:47 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 02:12 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one >> we usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white >> and born in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. >> >> As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and >> get rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows >> players to set themselves up to be able to sluff. > > I used to play hearts, but I don't recall hearing "slough/sluff" with > it (New York/New Engand). Dangerous cards, such as high hearts, > might be "passed" or "passed off" to one's neighbor. And during > play, hears were not passively sluffed, but rather forcefully and > venomously imposed on the trick-winner. (Nothing to do with > snakeskin, however.) I learned to play bridge in the late 60s and haven't played much since then. I recall sluffing/sloughing (never knew how to spell it) as discarding unwanted cards when you were unable to follow suit. I have a vague recollection of a strategy being "a ruff and a sluff", with ruff meaning trump. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 18:56:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:56:07 -0400 Subject: Youneverknow. Message-ID: When I was in the Army, in 1961, I had a barracks-mate whose girlfriend was named _Tamara_ [t@'mar^]. He used to annoy the hell out of us with his punning chant of "Tamara tomorrow!" During the MTV teen drama, Awkward, a character announces, "I'm [t@'mar^]! It's spelled ['tAm at r@]!" And then she proceeds to make the same, obvious, asinine pun. I deduce from this that, these days, the general assumption is that, unless otherwise noted, _Tamara_ is to be pronounced ['tAm at r@] and that the formerly-standard pronunciation, [t@'mar^], once the only one known to me - and to all of my barracks-mates and, indeed, AFAIK, to tout le monde - is now considered to be cutely exotic. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 19:00:42 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:00:42 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091657.p79AmDxe004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > have trouble seeing "sloughing off its skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get back to work." I do, too, now that you mention it.. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 19:16:02 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:16:02 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091852.p79H5cMS004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >> snakes, I don't have that connection. I can understand the >> etymological connection but have trouble seeing "sloughing off its >> skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get >> back to work." > > I didn't mean to slight "sluffing" of homework -- I agree that an > additional sense may be warranted. I just wanted to assert that > "sluff off" transitive did not seem odd to me. > > Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been (aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 19:16:54 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:16:54 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091901.p79H5cNK004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see a smooth migration from sloughing off your responsibilities thru sloughing off work and sloughing off homework to sluffing off, especially among people who sloughed off their homework enough so they never learned to spell "slough". DanG On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> have trouble seeing "sloughing off its skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get back to work." > > I do, too, now that you mention it.. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 9 19:08:01 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:08:01 -0400 Subject: "The Bob Edwards Show" In-Reply-To: <201108091837.p79H5cKI004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Michael Quinion wrote: > > > A poster on another listserv mentions this satellite-radio program as > > the sometime source of "interesting discussions on language." > > I used to do pieces on language for the Bob Edwards Show. Perhaps the > poster meant those. FWIW, he had John McWhorter on his show today talking about his new book: --- http://www.bobedwardsradio.com/bes/ In his fourteenth book, John McWhorter asks readers to look at language the way a linguist does, to examine and appreciate the oral “tongue” as much as written language. McWhorter is a linguist and says that there is no such thing as “improper” grammar. He explains that and more, as discussed in What Language Is (And What It Isn’t and What It Could Be). --- No audio available online, unfortunately. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mgvoneil at STANFORD.EDU Tue Aug 9 19:08:47 2011 From: mgvoneil at STANFORD.EDU (Megan O'Neil) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:08:47 -0700 Subject: "As with" Message-ID: I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might have. The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce Cunningham." This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the comparison. My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on the subject? Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Aug 9 19:30:21 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:30:21 -0500 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108091812.p79H5cHS004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has sluff (v) in a card-playing sense back to 1959. Wilson, I'd have thought you would have read this: Robert A. Heinlein, _Farnham's Freehold_ p. 5 "She admired the way he squeezed out the last trick, of a contract in which she had forced them too high, by having the boldness to sluff an ace." This from the Baen Books 2001 edition, but I'm sure that the quote can be found in the original 1964 edition. > > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson > wrote: > >> 1978   Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3  East > >> is now squeezed in the red suitsè˙âˆ� e must either > >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or > > > > _sluff_ > > > >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > >> > > > > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a > BE thing! > > > > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton > > Curtain. You really *do* never know! > > I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we > usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born > in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. > > As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get > rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players > to set themselves up to be able to sluff. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 20:10:55 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:10:55 -0400 Subject: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff ...] In-Reply-To: <782BAF67-B676-4BA2-A725-619A01B66394@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 03:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) > >Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been >(aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). Ben had written: >> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >> snakes, I don't have that connection. "St. Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 20:19:00 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:19:00 -0700 Subject: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff ...] In-Reply-To: <201108092011.p79H5ckY004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 03:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) >> >> Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been >> (aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). > > Ben had written: >>> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >>> snakes, I don't have that connection. > > "St. Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland". > A wee bit obscure, but a good laugh, thank you :) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 20:29:00 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:29:00 -0400 Subject: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff ...] In-Reply-To: <201108092019.p79H5clO004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "St. Patrick was a gentleman, he was a saint so frisky: He drove the snakes from Ireland, and put them in the whisky." --Old Song On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff > ...] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/9/2011 03:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >>> Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) > >> > >> Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been > >> (aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). > > > > Ben had written: > >>> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for > >>> snakes, I don't have that connection. > > > > "St. Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland". > > > > A wee bit obscure, but a good laugh, thank you :) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 9 20:44:34 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:44:34 -0500 Subject: "As with" Message-ID: Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." G. Cohen ________________________________ Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might have. The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce Cunningham." This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the comparison. My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on the subject? Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 20:52:28 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:52:28 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092048.p79H5co6004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: "As with" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." > =20 > G. Cohen > ________________________________ > > Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: > > I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just > started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a > sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might > have. > > The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples > proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot > of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. > The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: > > "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce > Cunningham." > > This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As > with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of > the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also > (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, > ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between > the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies > the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the > comparison. > > My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences > before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on > the subject? > Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 22:22:52 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 18:22:52 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092052.p79AuUn7030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "As with" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> Subject: Re: "As with" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." >> =20 >> G. Cohen >> ________________________________ >> >> Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: >> >> I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just >> started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a >> sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might >> have. >> >> The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples >> proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot >> of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. >> The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: >> >> "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce >> Cunningham." >> >> This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As >> with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of >> the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also >> (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, >> ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between >> the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies >> the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the >> comparison. >> >> My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences >> before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on >> the subject? >> Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 22:30:21 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 18:30:21 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092223.p79Ljerj030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, but by blithely accepting it, they helped drive in the last coffin nail. JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "As with" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of > changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "As with" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? > > > > JL > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard >wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > >> Subject: Re: "As with" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." > >> =20 > >> G. Cohen > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: > >> > >> I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just > >> started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a > >> sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might > >> have. > >> > >> The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples > >> proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot > >> of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. > >> The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: > >> > >> "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce > >> Cunningham." > >> > >> This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As > >> with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of > >> the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also > >> (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, > >> ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between > >> the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies > >> the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the > >> comparison. > >> > >> My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences > >> before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on > >> the subject? > >> Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Aug 9 23:38:24 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:38:24 -0700 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092223.p79JXAO5006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of > changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? i understood Jon Lighter's > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? to be comparing (1) As with many ..., Lucinda Childs ... and (2) Like many ..., Lucinda Childs ... but no one objects to "like" + NP, so unless you're completely spooked by "like", there's no reason to avoid (2). but maybe Jon was thinking of (3) Like with many ..., Lucinda Childs which has "like" + PP, which not everyone is comfortable with. the famous Winston example originally had "like" + Clause, which is widely proscribed (see the discussion in MWDEU) -- indeed, that was the point of the ad ("What do you want, good grammar or good taste?"). but, in any case,"like" + Clause is irrelevant to the current discussion. "as with" makes a comparison, but it does more than that; (1) and (2) aren't discourse-equivalent. as Jerry Cohen pointed out, "as with" in (1) is roughly discourse-equivalent to "as is the case with" (or "as is true for" and probably some other possibilities). it frames the material that follows as well as drawing a comparison. Megan alluded to examples that aren't so straightforwardly acceptable and interpretable as the Lucinda Childs example. there are lots of them. and there are many unproblematic examples that don't easily allow "like" for "as with" -- for instance, from Language Log postings: As with email-borne spam, much of the text of splogs is randomly generated, or at least generated according to a set of esoteric rules known only to the splogger. [quoted] If, as with so many of the trends of American Hispanics, Spanglish were to spread to Latin America, it would constitute the ultimate imperialistic takeover, the final imposition of a way of life that is economically dominant but not culturally superior in any sense. As with Fitzmas, it looks like there were multiple discoverers of this felicitous blend. [quoted] There are, as with other inversions, many reasons for turning to the passive ... sentence-initial "like" + NP is a SPAR (a Subjectless Predicational Adjunct Requiring a referent for the missing subject), but the conditions on "as with" + NP are looser than this. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 00:10:53 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:10:53 +0000 Subject: Youneverknow. In-Reply-To: <201108091856.p79H5cMs004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Tamara tomorrow!" A son will come up? Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Youneverknow. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When I was in the Army, in 1961, I had a barracks-mate whose > girlfriend was named _Tamara_ [t@'mar^]. He used to annoy the hell out > of us with his punning chant of > > "Tamara tomorrow!" > > During the MTV teen drama, Awkward, a character announces, > > "I'm [t@'mar^]! It's spelled ['tAm at r@]!" > > And then she proceeds to make the same, obvious, asinine pun. > > I deduce from this that, these days, the general assumption is that, > unless otherwise noted, _Tamara_ is to be pronounced ['tAm at r@] and > that the formerly-standard pronunciation, [t@'mar^], once the only one > known to me - and to all of my barracks-mates and, indeed, AFAIK, to > tout le monde - is now considered to be cutely exotic. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 00:21:05 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:21:05 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092338.p79JXAS3006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >...so unless you're completely spooked by "like", there's no reason to avoid (2). I can't prove it, but such people may exist. I can remember several freshman themes (admittedly out of thousands) in which perfectly correct prepositional _like_ was replaced with awkward-sounding and uncalled-for _as_. That was twenty and more years ago, which only means that the practice, limited though it may be, has had plenty of time to spread. My guess is that it is more likely to be spreading than retreating. I'm not saying that people who write "as with" are necessarily "spooked by 'like.'" Merely that the phrase may gained ground through the agency of people who are. Assuming they exist. JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: "As with" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 9, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of > > changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? > > i understood Jon Lighter's > > > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? > > to be comparing > (1) As with many ..., Lucinda Childs ... > and > (2) Like many ..., Lucinda Childs ... > > but no one objects to "like" + NP, so unless you're completely spooked by > "like", there's no reason to avoid (2). > > but maybe Jon was thinking of > (3) Like with many ..., Lucinda Childs > which has "like" + PP, which not everyone is comfortable with. > > the famous Winston example originally had "like" + Clause, which is widely > proscribed (see the discussion in MWDEU) -- indeed, that was the point of > the ad ("What do you want, good grammar or good taste?"). but, in any > case,"like" + Clause is irrelevant to the current discussion. > > "as with" makes a comparison, but it does more than that; (1) and (2) > aren't discourse-equivalent. as Jerry Cohen pointed out, "as with" in (1) > is roughly discourse-equivalent to "as is the case with" (or "as is true > for" and probably some other possibilities). it frames the material that > follows as well as drawing a comparison. > > Megan alluded to examples that aren't so straightforwardly acceptable and > interpretable as the Lucinda Childs example. there are lots of them. and > there are many unproblematic examples that don't easily allow "like" for "as > with" -- for instance, from Language Log postings: > > As with email-borne spam, much of the text of splogs is randomly > generated, or at least generated according to a set of esoteric rules known > only to the splogger. > > [quoted] If, as with so many of the trends of American Hispanics, > Spanglish were to spread to Latin America, it would constitute the ultimate > imperialistic takeover, the final imposition of a way of life that is > economically dominant but not culturally superior in any sense. > > As with Fitzmas, it looks like there were multiple discoverers of this > felicitous blend. > > [quoted] There are, as with other inversions, many reasons for turning to > the passive ... > > sentence-initial "like" + NP is a SPAR (a Subjectless Predicational Adjunct > Requiring a referent for the missing subject), but the conditions on "as > with" + NP are looser than this. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 10 00:38:28 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 17:38:28 -0700 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108100021.p79NWK2E004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: >> ...so unless you're completely spooked by "like", there's no reason to > avoid (2). > > I can't prove it, but such people may exist. I can remember several freshman > themes (admittedly out of thousands) in which perfectly correct > prepositional _like_ was replaced with awkward-sounding and uncalled-for > _as_. > > That was twenty and more years ago, which only means that the practice, > limited though it may be, has had plenty of time to spread. My guess is > that it is more likely to be spreading than retreating. > > I'm not saying that people who write "as with" are necessarily "spooked by > 'like.'" Merely that the phrase may gained ground through the agency of > people who are. > > Assuming they exist. i'm pretty sure they do exist. but many of the examples with "as with" can't be seen as avoidances of "like", and they come from people who are very unlikely to have been spooked by "like" or influenced by those who are; several LLoggers (Ben Zimmer and me, for example) seem to be fond of framing "as with". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Aug 10 01:07:43 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:07:43 -0500 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: It's on p.8 in my paperback "fifth printing" (no date specified) which claims Sept., 65, as the first printing. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has sluff (v) in a card-playing sense back to 1959. Wilson, I'd have thought you would have read this: Robert A. Heinlein, _Farnham's Freehold_ p. 5 "She admired the way he squeezed out the last trick, of a contract in which she had forced them too high, by having the boldness to sluff an ace." This from the Baen Books 2001 edition, but I'm sure that the quote can be found in the original 1964 edition. > > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson > wrote: > >> 1978   Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3  East > >> is now squeezed in the red suitsè˙∠e must either > >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or > > > > _sluff_ > > > >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > >> > > > > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a > BE thing! > > > > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton > > Curtain. You really *do* never know! > > I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we > usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born > in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. > > As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get > rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players > to set themselves up to be able to sluff. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 10 12:30:04 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 08:30:04 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <330B9EE4-B957-4A78-A581-FA04BEAA1973@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 07:38 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > As with Fitzmas, it looks like there were multiple discoverers of > this felicitous blend. I don't know how to model this, but -- If I had written "Like Fitzmas, there were multiple discoverers ...", I might wonder whether it was the discoverers or the discovery that was like Fitzmas -- and change to "as with" to preempt any momentary hiccups in my readers. Of course, in this example "Like Fitzmas, it looks like ..." is at best awkward, as would be "As with Fitzmas, it looks as if ...". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 14:51:55 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:51:55 -0400 Subject: Obamageddon Message-ID: A Republican on CNN: "This is Obamageddon! It's Barackalypse now!" That means America's done for. Start talking Chinese. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 10 14:56:38 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:56:38 -0500 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: For "hot dog" afficionados: Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the New York hot dog: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-at-a-time.html The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters." G. Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Wed Aug 10 15:33:15 2011 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 17:33:15 +0200 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the link is broken, even copying the whole thing including the next line. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Aug 10, 2011, at 4:56 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 10 15:45:32 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:45:32 -0400 Subject: support from, or for? Message-ID: In a NYTimes article yesterday on Texas Gov. Rick Perry's signal of intent to enter the presidential race, I read: "His name will not be on the ballot [of the Iowa Straw Poll Saturday], but Americans for Perry ... has been urging supporters to cast a write-in ballot for him. That effort could erode support from his rivals." Even in the absence of any activity by Americans for Perry, I would not expect that Perry would have had any support from his rivals (and in passing, therefore nothing that could erode). Shouldn't one use "erode support *for* his rivals" here? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 10 15:46:05 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:46:05 -0500 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: The "equal sign" at the end of the line was added by my computer software. The last part of the link should read one-cart-at-a-time.html And there should be nothing after html If there's still a problem, please let me know. I just tried it, and it worked okay. G. Cohen ________________________________ Michael Newman wrote, Wed 8/10/2011 10:33 AM: the link is broken, even copying the whole thing including the next line. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Aug 10, 2011, at 4:56 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Aug 10 15:47:00 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:47:00 -0500 Subject: "Eleven Mediocre Southern Accents From Movies and How They Should Really Sound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108082014.p78AnHBj019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/08/these_suck_yall_11_terrible _soua.html# Read the comments as well. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 16:21:12 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:21:12 -0400 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108101458.p7AAxcbi000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't stand it. JL On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: hot dog article in NY Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 > For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 > Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = > New York hot dog: > =20 > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html > =20 > The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = > picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = > It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = > say "Hot Dogs"; > it says "Hot Frankfurters." > =20 > The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = > bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = > entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = > have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 > =20 > G. Cohen > =20 > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM Wed Aug 10 16:29:13 2011 From: Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM (Katy Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:29:13 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101546.p7AAxcfS000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: ³Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this country are_Œoff on the wrong track¹_, which is the highest figure measured since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.² Saying we¹re ³off² on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 16:32:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:32:30 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101629.p7AAnEYB027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps we are on the right track, but off on the wrong foot?... DanG On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Katy Steinmetz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Katy Steinmetz > Subject: Off on the wrong track > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: > > =B3Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this > country are_=8Coff on the wrong track=B9_, which is the highest figure measured > since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.=B2 > > Saying we=B9re =B3off=B2 on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to > suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we > collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. > > http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810= >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM Wed Aug 10 16:36:26 2011 From: Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM (Katy Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:36:26 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101633.p7AAxcjM000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Or perhaps our deviance is so notable that we are off, as well as on the wrong track. On 8/10/11 12:32 PM, "Dan Goncharoff" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: Off on the wrong track > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > Perhaps we are on the right track, but off on the wrong foot?... > > DanG > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Katy Steinmetz > wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Katy Steinmetz >> > Subject: Off on the wrong track >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------->> -- >> > >> > I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: >> > >> > =B3Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this >> > country are_=8Coff on the wrong track=B9_, which is the highest figure >> measured >> > since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.=B2 >> > >> > Saying we=B9re =B3off=B2 on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to >> > suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we >> > collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. >> > >> > >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810= >>> >> >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 16:40:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:40:30 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101636.p7AG1iJf020461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If we are off the wrong track, we are either on the right track or derailed... DanG On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Katy Steinmetz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Katy Steinmetz > Subject: Re: Off on the wrong track > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Or perhaps our deviance is so notable that we are off, as well as on the > wrong track. > > > On 8/10/11 12:32 PM, "Dan Goncharoff" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: Off on the wrong track >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > - >> >> Perhaps we are on the right track, but off on the wrong foot?... >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Katy Steinmetz >> wrote: >>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > Poster: Katy Steinmetz >>> > Subject: Off on the wrong track >>> > >>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------->> > -- >>> > >>> > I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: >>> > >>> > =B3Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this >>> > country are_=8Coff on the wrong track=B9_, which is the highest figure >>> measured >>> > since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.=B2 >>> > >>> > Saying we=B9re =B3off=B2 on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to >>> > suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we >>> > collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810= >>>> >> >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Aug 10 17:13:00 2011 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:13:00 -0800 Subject: Borrowed-a names (was: Re: Youneverknow.) In-Reply-To: <201108100401.p79Lje0h030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > When I was in the Army, in 1961, I had a barracks-mate whose > girlfriend was named _Tamara_ [t@'mar^]. He used to annoy the hell out > of us with his punning chant of > "Tamara tomorrow!" > During the MTV teen drama, Awkward, a character announces, > "I'm [t@'mar^]! It's spelled ['tAm at r@]!" > And then she proceeds to make the same, obvious, asinine pun. > I deduce from this that, these days, the general assumption is that, > unless otherwise noted, _Tamara_ is to be pronounced ['tAm at r@] and > that the formerly-standard pronunciation, [t@'mar^], once the only one > known to me - and to all of my barracks-mates and, indeed, AFAIK, to > tout le monde - is now considered to be cutely exotic. There are, i think, two things going on here: 1. The pronunciation of names is relatively unpredictable from spelling (e.g., 'Thomas' starts with [t] rather than theta), and this includes what syllable is stressed. 2. Borrowed-a is regionally variable (e.g., how do *you* pronounce 'plaza'?), particularly when combined with unpredictable stress location. My personal-history case: Jeanne and i are both from areas where borrowed-a is pretty much consistently [a], never [æ]. (That last character's the a-e ligature, if it didn't come across right.) Our oldest, Sadra [sadr@] was born shortly before we moved to Utah, and we never imagined anyone would have any trouble at all with her name. The Wasatch Front of Utah, though, shows variation in borrowed-a treatment (e.g., consistent Nev[æ]da, variation between Color[æ]do and Color[a]do, p[a]sta, pl[æ]za, and so on), and people there were very confused about how to pronounce her name, [sadr@] or [sædr@] (or [sedr@], which is a rather different issue). For Jeanne and me, any pronunciation of Tamara as [tæm at r@] is strange, since you simply *can't* have a [æ] there. (You might could have [tam at r@] if you're gonna have first-syllable stress, i suppose.) I can imagine that for people from certain other areas (i'd like to hear from any Canadians on the list for their intuitions, for example), [t at mar@] could be equally strange. -- David Bowie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Wed Aug 10 17:15:01 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:15:01 -0300 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108101458.p7AAnEM1027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you just go to the NYT and search "hot dog" the article will pop up. That's how I found it. DAD -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: hot dog article in NY Times ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- =20 For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = New York hot dog: =20 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= t-a-time.html =20 The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." =20 The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 =20 G. Cohen =20 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 10 17:58:15 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:58:15 -0400 Subject: Borrowed-a names In-Reply-To: <201108101713.p7AAnEbX027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/10/2011 1:13 PM, David Bowie wrote: > > There are, i think, two things going on here: > > 1. The pronunciation of names is relatively unpredictable from spelling > (e.g., 'Thomas' starts with [t] rather than theta), and this includes > what syllable is stressed. > > 2. Borrowed-a is regionally variable (e.g., how do *you* pronounce > 'plaza'?), particularly when combined with unpredictable stress location. > > My personal-history case: Jeanne and i are both from areas where > borrowed-a is pretty much consistently [a], never [æ]. (That last > character's the a-e ligature, if it didn't come across right.) Our > oldest, Sadra [sadr@] was born shortly before we moved to Utah, and we > never imagined anyone would have any trouble at all with her name. The > Wasatch Front of Utah, though, shows variation in borrowed-a treatment > (e.g., consistent Nev[æ]da, variation between Color[æ]do and Color[a]do, > p[a]sta, pl[æ]za, and so on), and people there were very confused about > how to pronounce her name, [sadr@] or [sædr@] (or [sedr@], which is a > rather different issue). > > For Jeanne and me, any pronunciation of Tamara as [tæm at r@] is strange, > since you simply *can't* have a [æ] there. (You might could have > [tam at r@] if you're gonna have first-syllable stress, i suppose.) I can > imagine that for people from certain other areas (i'd like to hear from > any Canadians on the list for their intuitions, for example), [t at mar@] > could be equally strange. -- But isn't the stressed first-syllable vowel virtually always /&/ (IPA "ae" ligature) in several comparable words ("tamarack", "tamarind", "tamarisk", even "tam-o'-shanter")? I suppose I would use a guess-pronunciation like /ta'mara/ (or more-Englishy /t at mar@/) if I figured the name to be an import of unknown origin, but I would not bet much on my guess. I think most folks would pronounce an unfamiliar name by analogy with other words which they use or see (e.g., in the current case maybe "camera"), without any thought of borrowing or origin. I myself would not know offhand whether, say, "tamarack" or "tamarind" was a loan-word or if so from what language; I think the average person wouldn't know offhand even how to find out and furthermore would never think of trying. I would guess that in my neck of the woods, judging from comparable cases including one in the immediate family, an unfamiliar name written "Sadra" would be pronounced (by strangers) /s&dr@/ (with "ae" sound) about 70-80% of the time. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 18:51:26 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:51:26 -0400 Subject: support from, or for? In-Reply-To: <201108101545.p7AAnERx027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: � � � support from, or for? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a NYTimes article yesterday on Texas Gov. Rick Perry's signal of > intent to enter the presidential race, I read: > > "His name will not be on the ballot [of the Iowa Straw Poll > Saturday], but Americans for Perry ... has been urging supporters to > cast a write-in ballot for him. � That effort could erode support from > his rivals." > > Even in the absence of any activity by Americans for Perry, I would > not expect that Perry would have had any support from his rivals (and > in passing, therefore nothing that could erode). � Shouldn't one use > "erode support *for* his rivals" here? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > I agree, Joel. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 19:12:00 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 15:12:00 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108100108.p79JXAXx006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The OED does contain an example of sluff used as a verb in the domain of card playing as Bill notes. The citation is grouped with other examples of figurative use. OED sluff, v. U.S. var. slough v.2 3.: 1959 T. Reese & A. Dormer Bridge Player's Dict. 206 Sluff, to discard; to throw a card, other than a trump, of a suit different from the one led. Here is a 1931 citation for "sluffed" in the game of bridge. Cite 1931 February 25, Pittsburgh Press, "Bridge: Retain Control Of Dangerous Suit As Long As Possible, Declarer Pulls Opponent's Trump to Win" by William E McKenney, Page 23, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (Google News Archive) Declarer would then lead a trump which East would win with the ace. but the declarer has already sluffed his losing club and game would be made. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VMoaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=REsEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2588,1522188&dq=sluffed Short URL: http://goo.gl/S5QgM Here is a 1931 example with ruff and sluff as mentioned by Alice Faber. Cite: 1931 January 12, Spokane Daily Chronicle, Two Too Many in Trump Suit by Wm. E. McKenney, Page 5, Spokane, Washington. (Google news Archive) When all players followed to the three club leads by east, east should not continue with the seven of clubs as this would get the declarer a ruff in one hand and a sluff in the other. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=js9XAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zfQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6323,2134126&dq=sluff http://goo.gl/xaJcX Garson On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Dave Hause wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Dave Hause > Subject: � � � Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's on p.8 in my paperback "fifth printing" (no date specified) which > claims Sept., 65, as the first printing. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Waynesville, MO > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:30 PM > Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > OED has sluff (v) in a card-playing sense back to 1959. > > > Wilson, I'd have thought you would have read this: > > Robert A. Heinlein, _Farnham's Freehold_ p. 5 > "She admired the way he squeezed out the last trick, of a contract in which > she had forced them too high, by having the boldness to sluff an ace." > This from the Baen Books 2001 edition, but I'm sure that the quote can be > found in the original 1964 edition. > > > >> >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson >> wrote: >> >> 1978  �  Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3  � East >> >> is now squeezed in the red suitsè˙∠e must either >> >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or >> > >> > _sluff_ >> > >> >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. >> >> >> > >> > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a >> BE thing! >> > >> > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton >> > Curtain. You really *do* never know! >> >> I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we >> usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born >> in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. >> >> As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get >> rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players >> to set themselves up to be able to sluff. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 10 20:10:08 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 16:10:08 -0400 Subject: "leg before wicket" Message-ID: This expression, being an "L" word (in the "eg before wicket" family, to recollect Sesame Street), falls just before the cycle of regeneration the OED is undergoing. Still, the entry is odd. The first citation (1774) establishes that the ploy was against the rule, but doesn't use the words; the second (1795) isn't []ed, but seems not to use the word, anyway, though it does show that the abbreviation "lbw" was current then. So the earliest appearance of the fully spelled out prhrase comes from 1850. Ant the 4th citation is also the source for the 1795 citation. OED: leg, sense 6, Cricket, *a.* leg before wicket: the act of stopping with the leg, or other part of the person, a straight-pitched ball, which would otherwise have hit the wicket (a fault in play for which the batsman may be given ‘out’). Also, simply, leg before. Abbreviated *l.b.w*. [1774 *Laws Cricket* in Lillywhite *Cricket Scores * (1862) I. 17 Or if a striker puts his leg before the wicket with a design to stop the ball, and actually prevent the ball from hitting his wicket by it [he is out].] 1795 in Lillywhite *Cricket Scores * (1862) I. 190 Hon. J. Tufton, lbw, b wells…3. 1850 ‘Bat’ *Cricketer's Man. * 47 The hitter is given out as‥‘leg before wicket’. 1862 Lillywhite *Cricket Scores * I. 191 In this match [in 1795], ‘leg before wicket’ is found *scored* for the first time. 1882 *Daily Tel. * 20 May, Blackham was out leg before to Lillywhite. The following was turned up the old-fashioned way, by reading the newspaper. But checking several databases of old newspapers doesn't show anything earlier: A Challenge. THIRTEEN Americans or Europeans, challenge any equal number of native Georgians, to play the game of cricket. *** No legs before wickets. New-York Gazette & General Advertiser, March 18, 1801, p. 3, col. 2, "from a Savannah paper" Oddly, the N-YG&GA prints this as if an advertisement, not as something the editor saw in a Savannah paper and reprinted as likely to be found amusing or interesting by NYC readers. Cricket was a popular game in NYC at this time. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 10 20:40:27 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 16:40:27 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" Message-ID: This doesn't appear in the OED. Exercise with flying Horses, *In the Court of Mr. Ambroise, Fire-worker, No. 297 Mulberry street*, WILL be opened every day, Sundays excepted; those who wish to enjoy this innocent amusement may gratify themselves at the small rate of one quarter of a dollar per quadrille. Private companies, who wish to enjoy this exercise and bespeak the machine for certain hours, will please to give notice thereof at the above place. N. B. From eight to ten o'clock double price on account of the lights. Claypoole's American Daily Advertiser, (Philadelphia), June 11, 1796, p. 2, col. ?. [a house listed for sale; described as "situated in Bowery lane, 2 doors below the flying horses, above Bayard street"] *Daily Advertiser*, April 6, 1799, p. 3, col. ? [David Hervey, Zachariah Sickels and Jacob Hallock indicted for illegible; they kept "a certain unlawful and dangerous engine or machine called flying horse", on May 1, 1801 and after. Henry Willetts of 33 Cheapside street, 7th Ward, complains that they have] a large building in [Cheapside] street [where] they have [illegible] what they call flying horses. [This attracts] bad men and women boys and girls black and white every night in the week Sundays excepted. New York County District Attorney Indictment Papers, 1st folder of June 5, 1801. [text of a law prohibiting "any licensed Inn or Tavern keeper, or Grocer" from keeping "any Flying Horse . . . , or Whirligig, or Roundabout, or other similar machinery or device for public amusement. . . . $50 fine] New-York National Advocate, June 16, 1825, p. 2, col. 5; On August 15, 1825, . . . the Common Council . . . granted a permit to John Sears to "establish a covered circus for a Flying Horse Establishment. . . . a petition by P. Paquet was at the same time withdrawn, indicating that his Flying Horses, perhaps exhibited earlier, may have run into trouble with the police. Frederick Fried, *A Pictorial History of the Carousel*, Vestal, N. Y.: Vestal Press, 1982, p. 51. Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? Calling a session on the contraption a "quadrille" is curious, too. The proprietors of the "Elysian Fields" at Hoboken installed a roller-coaster like contraption in the shape of a rail road, that being the latest technological marvel in the 1830s. There were those who thought that the most amusing aspect of the Hoboken affair was that people would pay money to push themselves and others around the track -- evidently it was a form of healthful exercise, too. "Mr. Van Buskirk, keeper of the Hotel, at Hoboken, has constructed a double circular railway under the shade on his grounds adjoining, for exercise, and the amusement of visiters to that pleasant spot. Two light pleasure cars are provided, running on iron wheels, 3 feet in diameter, with stuffed cushions, and neatly finished, each capable of accommodating two persons. The motion is produced by the riders, who turn a hand-wheel by a windlass, and the motion is rapid and pleasant. The circuit, which is 687 feet, is frequently made in 4 minutes. Caution is necessary in not standing too near." New-York Daily Advertiser, July 29, 1831, p. 2, col. 3 "the larger children who amuse themselves on the circular rail road, by first paying their passage, and then working hard to accomplish it" Evening Star, June 16, 1836, p. 2, col. 3 GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 02:23:36 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:23:36 -0400 Subject: _Symbian_ Message-ID: This word is apparently not in the OED nor in the UD, in the relevant meaning. Cf. http://xhamster.com/search.php?q=symbian&qcat=video The cited URL is that of a for-real porn site featuring the niche paraphilia based on the use of the symbian, a particular kind of sex toy, which is shown as it's commonly used. If you can't get ready for serious pornography, take a pass on this. I leave the task of coming up with a definition of this object to the professionals. I'm not going to try this at home!:-) WRT whether there be any connection with the name of the Symbian OS, deponent hath no opinion. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 02:59:59 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:59:59 -0400 Subject: _Symbian_ In-Reply-To: <201108110224.p7AImgWT027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray > Subject: _Symbian_ > This word is apparently not in the OED nor in the UD, in the relevant meaning. The denizens of Wikipedia apparently call the device a Sybian. It was developed in the 1980s, and The Howard Stern Show has been a recent locus of popularization. An online history at the sybian.com website provides a rationale for the name: [begin excerpt] Now we needed a name. For nearly four years we called it Master Better, MB for short, but knew we had to come up with something different. We finally agreed on Sybian. The Syb is derived from Sybaris, an ancient Greek city in southern Italy, famous as a center of luxurious living. A Sybarite is defined as a person who likes luxurious things so we now refer to the owners of Sybian by that name. I would not label these links NSFW but I do not know your work environment: http://www.sybian.com/sybian_history.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybian < Continuing Wilson Gray's comment> > http://xhamster.com/search.php?q=symbian&qcat=video > > The cited URL is that of a for-real porn site featuring the niche > paraphilia based on the use of the symbian, a particular kind of sex > toy, which is shown as it's commonly used. If you can't get ready for > serious pornography, take a pass on this. > > I leave the task of coming up with a definition of this object to the > professionals. I'm not going to try this at home!:-) > > WRT whether there be any connection with the name of the Symbian OS, > deponent hath no opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 11 03:50:05 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:50:05 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or >Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young whipper-snappers. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 03:56:06 2011 From: jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM (Jocelyn Limpert) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:56:06 -0400 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108101715.p7AAxclQ000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: DAD: One would hope that you're not the only one with common sense! The convoluted explanation on how to change the URL was a bit much, to put it mildly. JRL On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:15 PM, David A. Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "David A. Daniel" > Subject: Re: hot dog article in NY Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If you just go to the NYT and search "hot dog" the article will pop up. > That's how I found it. > DAD > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:57 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: hot dog article in NY Times > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 > For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 > Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = > New York hot dog: > =20 > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html > =20 > The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = > picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = > It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = > say "Hot Dogs"; > it says "Hot Frankfurters." > =20 > The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = > bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = > entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = > have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 > =20 > G. Cohen > =20 > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 03:59:27 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:59:27 -0400 Subject: support from, or for? In-Reply-To: <201108101545.p7AAnERx027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would also generally agree, but there is a parsing issue here. (1) erode [support] from his rival (2) erode [support for his rival] In (1), support is surely something that is being eroded, but it's incidental--anything could be eroded here and fall in the same construction. What is being eroded here is the rivals' base. And the votes that they lose presumably go to Perry--i.e., he takes the votes away /from/ them. In (2), the preposition goes with "support" rather than with the verb. The implication is that the enthusiasm and the votes that prop up his rivals go down, but there is no /direct/ implication that the votes shift over to Perry--one can erode "support for X" without directly benefiting from this erosion. The first has the sense of take-away, the second of destruction (or, more precisely, reduction). This does not mean that the two constructs can exist side by side, but it should explain how careless editing might have arrived at the statement. Whether the construct "erode X from Y" exists at all is an entirely different question. VS-) On 8/10/2011 11:45 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > In a NYTimes article yesterday on Texas Gov. Rick Perry's signal of > intent to enter the presidential race, I read: > > "His name will not be on the ballot [of the Iowa Straw Poll > Saturday], but Americans for Perry ... has been urging supporters to > cast a write-in ballot for him. That effort could erode support from > his rivals." > > Even in the absence of any activity by Americans for Perry, I would > not expect that Perry would have had any support from his rivals (and > in passing, therefore nothing that could erode). Shouldn't one use > "erode support *for* his rivals" here? > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 04:08:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 00:08:34 -0400 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108110356.p7AKDv2V020461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a short link and a long link to the New York Times story "Redefining the Hot Dog, a Cart at a Time" by Jeff Gordinier dated August 9: http://goo.gl/ZSxQk http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-at-a-time.html On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jocelyn Limpert > Subject: Re: hot dog article in NY Times > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DAD: One would hope that you're not the only one with common sense! The > convoluted explanation on how to change the URL was a bit much, to put it > mildly. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 05:32:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:32:48 -0400 Subject: pleeb Message-ID: ... not in OED--because "plebe" is. But the UD meaning of either is missing--the generalized meaning of inferior rank, raw recruit, rookie, minion--a blend of the "plebeian" origin and the USNA use of "plebe" for first-year cadet, freshmen. Most online dictionaries expand that use to "military academy", in general, not just Naval. Several mention "obsolete" reference to "common people" (Wiktionary does not mention "obsolete"). Straight "fraternity-plebe" gets 12 ghits (a couple repetitive). "Fraternity-pleeb" and "frat-pleeb" get nothing, but two "frat-pleb" that means the same thing. Five more ghits for "frat-plebe". It seems there are a few generic uses that are restricted neither to Rome nor to military academies. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 05:37:19 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:37:19 -0400 Subject: pleeb In-Reply-To: <4E436980.2090206@gmail.com> Message-ID: More ghits under "drunken-plebe" (only a couple under "drunk-plebe") and when using plural (plebes). VS-) On 8/11/2011 1:32 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ... not in OED--because "plebe" is. But the UD meaning of either is > missing--the generalized meaning of inferior rank, raw recruit, > rookie, minion--a blend of the "plebeian" origin and the USNA use of > "plebe" for first-year cadet, freshmen. Most online dictionaries > expand that use to "military academy", in general, not just Naval. > Several mention "obsolete" reference to "common people" (Wiktionary > does not mention "obsolete"). > > Straight "fraternity-plebe" gets 12 ghits (a couple repetitive). > "Fraternity-pleeb" and "frat-pleeb" get nothing, but two "frat-pleb" > that means the same thing. Five more ghits for "frat-plebe". > > It seems there are a few generic uses that are restricted neither to > Rome nor to military academies. > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ryrivard at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 05:36:34 2011 From: ryrivard at GMAIL.COM (Ry Rivard) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:36:34 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108072145.p77As8qu025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Newspaper writer here. Preferred style for our paper (relatively small, American) is "chair(wo)man". But I do note the occasional indiscriminate use by those I cover of "chairman" toward females (but never "chairwoman" of males). A curmudgeon about the building used to say of "chair": "People are not chairs." -- Ry Rivard twitter.com/ryrivard | 304.389.9982 On Aug 7, 2011, at 5:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be >> "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. >> >> Or do I mean "gender"? >> > > I'm in complete agreement with Jon. However, I realize that our > opinions on these matters have very likely aged out of relevance. > > But, don't get biggety, young pepper-chests! Regardless of your > current youthful relevance, you, too, have irrelevance in your futures > and you'll be just as annoyed. My grandparents went to their graves > pretending that the "bicycle," as this form of velocipede was known in > my youth, was properly referred to only by the word, "wheel," to name > only one. > > I, too, expect to go to my grave, annoyed by the manner in which > people young enough to be my great-grandchildren are, even as I type, > working to fuck up what was once a beautiful language, in the form in > which it was bequeathed to me, ca. 1935-1965. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 12:34:19 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:34:19 -0400 Subject: _Symbian_ In-Reply-To: <201108110300.p7AImgYF027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Garson. At first I thought it was invented by Donald DeFreeze and the Symbionese. JL On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 10:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: _Symbian_ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson Gray > > Subject: _Symbian_ > > This word is apparently not in the OED nor in the UD, in the relevant > meaning. > > The denizens of Wikipedia apparently call the device a Sybian. It was > developed in the 1980s, and The Howard Stern Show has been a recent > locus of popularization. > > An online history at the sybian.com website provides a rationale for the > name: > > [begin excerpt] > Now we needed a name. For nearly four years we called it Master > Better, MB for short, but knew we had to come up with something > different. We finally agreed on Sybian. The Syb is derived from > Sybaris, an ancient Greek city in southern Italy, famous as a center > of luxurious living. A Sybarite is defined as a person who likes > luxurious things so we now refer to the owners of Sybian by that name. > > I would not label these links NSFW but I do not know your work environment: > http://www.sybian.com/sybian_history.html > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybian > > > < Continuing Wilson Gray's comment> > > http://xhamster.com/search.php?q=symbian&qcat=video > > > > The cited URL is that of a for-real porn site featuring the niche > > paraphilia based on the use of the symbian, a particular kind of sex > > toy, which is shown as it's commonly used. If you can't get ready for > > serious pornography, take a pass on this. > > > > I leave the task of coming up with a definition of this object to the > > professionals. I'm not going to try this at home!:-) > > > > WRT whether there be any connection with the name of the Symbian OS, > > deponent hath no opinion. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Aug 11 13:03:44 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:03:44 -0400 Subject: Annual meeting: proposals due Monday Message-ID: Just a reminder that the CFP deadline for the annual meeting of the American Dialect Society is this coming Monday, August 15. Please submit your proposal if you're at all interested in presenting! http://www.americandialect.org/index.php/amerdial/call_for_papers_american_dialect_society_annual_meeting_2012_portland/ Jesse Sheidlower [switching hats] President Elect, ADS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 11 15:22:59 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 11:22:59 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" In-Reply-To: <201108110350.p7B3oE3Y029435@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to the late 18th century. I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on the track. In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a ribwork that's spun by a motor. In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized ride does. The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a very different career than I have had. GAT On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? >> > > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young > whipper-snappers. > > Joel > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 11 15:31:15 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 11:31:15 -0400 Subject: Science Fiction at the British Library Message-ID: Some of you all have shown interest in science fiction, and Wilson at least was an early subscriber to the SF magazines. The TLS (Times Literary Supplement) of July 29 has a review by Brian Aldiss of an exhibition at the British Library of their holdings of science fiction, including issues of Astounding, Galaxy and New Worlds. Aldiss regrets the absence of Nebula and Authentic. There is a "large and interesting" catalog, edited by Mike Ashley, for 16.95 quid. Out of This World: Science Fiction, But Not As You Know It. 978 0 7123 5835 4 GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 17:17:57 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 17:17:57 +0000 Subject: What words should be imported In-Reply-To: <201108110224.p7B0HHME000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This link has some comments about good words to bring into English. http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2011/08/useful-words#comment-1003490 Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 17:51:36 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:51:36 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" In-Reply-To: <201108111523.p7BAl34U012276@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I came across this: Journal of the Franklin Institute - Page 303 books.google.comFranklin Institute (Philadelphia, Pa.) - 1844 - Free Google eBook http://bit.ly/q2e9tE "The opposite ends of a sweep" sounds like a swing to me, not a carousel... 20. For a machine for giving Exercise to Dyspeptics and other Invalids; Oliver Halsted, New York city, March 13. The patentee says,—'-The nature of tny invention consists in giving to a seat, upon which the patient is placed, an exercise similar to that given to the rider on a horse, with this difference, that, in the absence of all effort, on the part of the patient, to retain his seat upon the chair of exercise, (which absence of effort is not obtained on horse back,) he may relax the abdominal muscles, which is indispensable in order to stimulate the muscular coat of the stomach, and, at the same time, restore the peristaltic motion of the bowels, so that both secure their heathy action." The seat may be attached, by means of a slide, to one end of a working beam, vibrated by means of a crank, eccentric, or cam, actuated by any first mover; or a seat may be attached by the same means to a car, the axle of one of the sets of wheels being cranked to vibrate the beam, and two of these cars may be attached to the opposite ends of a sweep, in the manner of what are well known as flying horses. There are various modifications described and represented. Claim.—"What I claim as my invention, is the giving of an undulating, or jolting, motion to a chair by means substantially as herein described, for the purpose of curative treatment of dyspeptics, and other invalids, and for healthful exercise. I do not mean to confine myself to the precise form of construction of the individual parts, but vary them as 1 may have occasion, without departing from the general principles of action herein set forth, to wit, the giving of an undulating, or jolting, motion to a chair in contradistinction to a rocking, or oscillating, movement of the same, of which several examples of such variations are represented and specified." DanG On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:22 AM, George Thompson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: "flying horses" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to > the late 18th century. > > I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am > puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise > for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's > feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and > forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken > in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must > have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling > a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on > the track. > > In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk > which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a > ribwork that's spun by a motor. > In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise > and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there > were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it > a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but > still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized > ride does. > The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at > Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot > radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, > even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. > > There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at > Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, > since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a > separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse > moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level > track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with > my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on > beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. > This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, > and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a > very different career than I have had. > > GAT > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > > > >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or > >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? > >> > > > > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels > > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the > > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some > > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young > > whipper-snappers. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 11 19:51:38 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:51:38 -0400 Subject: "flying horses", "exercise", "quadrille" -- and "fandango" 1831 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: George, The "exercise" reference seems explained by the item below, the most forthcoming of the quotations I've seen. I looked at Early American Newspapers (where I too found the 1796 citation) and 19th Century American Newspapers. 1831: Daily National Intelligencer, (Washington, DC) Thursday, November 17, 1831; Issue 5860; col E [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] Flying Horses. This interesting exercise is found to be productive both of Health and Amusement. The Proprietor, Mr. T. Clarke, respectfully informs the Ladies and Gentlemen of Washington and vicinity, that he intends giving an exhibition of the Flying Horses, At Carusi's Assembly Rooms, on Tuesday, Nov 8, For the Exercise and Pleasure of Riding and Catching the Ring on the Point of a Sword, practised as an exercise between two or four persons. It is an interesting exercise, and at the same time conducive to health. Physicians have recommended the Swing Car of Diana, Fandango, and many other inventions, for exercise and health; but to all of them there has been some particular objection made, which this invention obviates. the Proprietor invites the attention of the inhabitants of this vicinity to the trial of his Domesticated Horses, and every attention will be paid to their pleasure and convenience. ["Ring[s]" is similar to later carousels (e.g., the 1876 Coney Island/now at Martha's Vineyard "Flying Horses" carousel; see Wikipedia). Thus I infer this exercise apparatus is not some kind of swing, unlike Dan's, but rather rotating. "Four persons" presumably explains George's "quadrille" mention; additionally, the OED associates both "quadrille" and "carousel" with equestrian displays/exercises. Genteel enough -- and easy enough on the dance flooring? -- to be conducted in an Assembly Room, and ridden by Ladies. But was this apparatus propelled by the riders, or by a motor? "Carousel" dates from 1673, with the quotation using the words "invencon" and "engines"; "merry-go-round" dates from 1729 and next 1807. Were these propelled by motors, live horses or other draft animals (unlikely in an Assembly Room, surely), or the riders' feet?] ["Swing-car" probably refers to something like those on a Ferris-wheel. The Friends' Intelligencer, Vol. 31, allegedly 1875 [Google Books} has the following: Merry-go-rounds, and a gigantic wheel-apparatus, with a swing-car suspended from each spoke, are very popular. Note that the first "Ferris-wheel" was 1893 (Wikipedia). Does the 1875 device antedate it?] "Fandango" 1831: The OED doesn't appear to have any invention under "fandango", just the dance etc. There are a number of additional mentions of a "flying horse[s]" devices in EAN and 19th C. Amer. Newspapers, from the 1830s and on. Hazard's register of Philadelphia, 1835, appears to say that flying horses were illegal in Philadelphia at that time. [Google Books] Joel At 8/11/2011 11:22 AM, George Thompson wrote: >My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to >the late 18th century. > >I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am >puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise >for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's >feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and >forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken >in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must >have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling >a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on >the track. > >In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk >which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a >ribwork that's spun by a motor. >In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise >and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there >were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it >a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but >still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized >ride does. >The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at >Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot >radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, >even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. > >There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at >Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, >since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a >separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse >moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level >track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with >my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on >beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. > This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, >and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a >very different career than I have had. > >GAT > >On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > > > >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or > >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? > >> > > > > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels > > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the > > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some > > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young > > whipper-snappers. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 11 22:21:57 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:21:57 -0400 Subject: "flying horses", "exercise", "quadrille" -- and "fandango" 1831 In-Reply-To: <201108111951.p7BJpgpb025688@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: could there be any information in the patent records of the US government that could answer some of these questions? On Aug 11, 2011, at 3:51 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > George, > > The "exercise" reference seems explained by the item below, the most > forthcoming of the quotations I've seen. I looked at Early American > Newspapers (where I too found the 1796 citation) and 19th Century > American Newspapers. > > 1831: Daily National Intelligencer, (Washington, DC) Thursday, > November 17, 1831; Issue 5860; col E [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > Flying Horses. > This interesting exercise is found to be productive both of Health > and Amusement. > The Proprietor, Mr. T. Clarke, respectfully informs the Ladies > and Gentlemen of Washington and vicinity, that he intends giving an > exhibition of the > Flying Horses, > At Carusi's Assembly Rooms, on Tuesday, Nov 8, > For the Exercise and Pleasure of Riding and Catching the Ring > on the Point of a Sword, practised as an exercise between two or four > persons. It is an interesting exercise, and at the same time > conducive to health. > Physicians have recommended the Swing Car of Diana, Fandango, > and many other inventions, for exercise and health; but to all of > them there has been some particular objection made, which this > invention obviates. the Proprietor invites the attention of the > inhabitants of this vicinity to the trial of his Domesticated Horses, > and every attention will be paid to their pleasure and convenience. > > ["Ring[s]" is similar to later carousels (e.g., the 1876 Coney > Island/now at Martha's Vineyard "Flying Horses" carousel; see > Wikipedia). Thus I infer this exercise apparatus is not some kind of > swing, unlike Dan's, but rather rotating. "Four persons" presumably > explains George's "quadrille" mention; additionally, the OED > associates both "quadrille" and "carousel" with equestrian > displays/exercises. Genteel enough -- and easy enough on the dance > flooring? -- to be conducted in an Assembly Room, and ridden by > Ladies. But was this apparatus propelled by the riders, or by a > motor? "Carousel" dates from 1673, with the quotation using the > words "invencon" and "engines"; "merry-go-round" dates from 1729 and > next 1807. Were these propelled by motors, live horses or other > draft animals (unlikely in an Assembly Room, surely), or the riders' feet?] > > ["Swing-car" probably refers to something like those on a > Ferris-wheel. The Friends' Intelligencer, Vol. 31, allegedly 1875 > [Google Books} has the following: > > Merry-go-rounds, and a gigantic wheel-apparatus, with a swing-car > suspended from each spoke, are very popular. > > Note that the first "Ferris-wheel" was 1893 (Wikipedia). Does the > 1875 device antedate it?] > > "Fandango" 1831: The OED doesn't appear to have any invention under > "fandango", just the dance etc. > > There are a number of additional mentions of a "flying horse[s]" > devices in EAN and 19th C. Amer. Newspapers, from the 1830s and on. > > Hazard's register of Philadelphia, 1835, appears to say that flying > horses were illegal in Philadelphia at that time. [Google Books] > > Joel > > At 8/11/2011 11:22 AM, George Thompson wrote: >> My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to >> the late 18th century. >> >> I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am >> puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise >> for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's >> feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and >> forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken >> in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must >> have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling >> a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on >> the track. >> >> In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk >> which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a >> ribwork that's spun by a motor. >> In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise >> and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there >> were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it >> a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but >> still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized >> ride does. >> The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at >> Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot >> radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, >> even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. >> >> There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at >> Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, >> since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a >> separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse >> moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level >> track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with >> my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on >> beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. >> This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, >> and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a >> very different career than I have had. >> >> GAT >> >> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> > >> >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or >> >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? >> >> >> > >> > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels >> > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the >> > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some >> > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young >> > whipper-snappers. >> > >> > Joel >> > >> > ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> George A. Thompson >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 11 23:37:52 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 19:37:52 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: "flying horses" Message-ID: A correspondent on another list thoughtfully (in contrast to moi) reported from the "Carousel" article on Wikipedia: >I'm inclined to think that this refers to a carousel. Wikipedia says, "The >earliest known depiction of a carousel is in a Byzantine bas-relief dating to >around 500 A.D., which depicts riders in baskets suspended from a central >pole." >Further, "Early carousels had no platforms: the animals would hang on poles or >chains and fly out from the centrifugal force of the spinning mechanism; these >are called "flying horses" carousels." Wikipedia's entry notes that carousels >were popular features of European fairs, although they didn't reach the >pinnacle of achievement until the American phase (I do not comment on the >-centrism implied by such a subjective view). Although Wiki cites no sources for this, I can believe there were carousels with horses on chains and that such horses on chains is a significant contributor to the emergence of the phrase "flying horses". A 2001 article in the Los Angeles Times, also unsourced, makes the same claim [Google]. and http://factoidz.com/carousels-a-brief-history/ claims to know the motive power: "The carved horses or animals hung from poles by chains, flying outward from centrifugal force as it turned by animals walking in circles, or people pulling a rope or cranking" [a short and dubious list of references, which includes -- unfortunately -- Wikipedia's "Carousel" article]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 00:34:46 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:34:46 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090522.p7916Pcv019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote > 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > > that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? Today I was reading through the 1951 Newsweek article about slang that contained the first known instance of the modern sense of "nerd" (after the ambiguous occurrence in Seuss) and I came across "sluff" associated with "cutting classes". Cite: 1951 October 8, Newsweek, Page 28, Column 3, Newsweek, Inc. (Verified on microfilm) When talking, Utah bobbysoxers are bashing ears; when kissing, they are lumping lips. They seek out flicks (movies) and drive a wedge, a set of wheels, or a rocket. When cutting classes, they sluff. Chili means good deal; Dad is any young man, and drag it is let's hurry. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = > 1992-1999 search is working.=20 > > 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > > ----- > that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = > world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = > here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = > 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. > ----- > > 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > ----- > We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = > be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > ----- > > 3. On that same day, Charles F Juengling reports "sluff off" meaning "be = > lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard." > > 4. The following day, Lew Sanborne lsanbore reports "we used "sluff" to = > mean "ditched school," and also in "sluff off," meaning to slack off, or = > to not do what one should have been doing." > > 5. The Urban Dictionary = > (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=3Dsluff) has a slew of = > definitions for "sluff," including: "Used most commonly in the Western = > U.S., sluffing (probably derived from the word 'to slough') is = > synonymous with skipping class, cutting class, or ditching class." One = > example given by a different person is "Dude, your such a sluff! " One = > other relevant definition and example is: "When your drug dealer is late = > in delivering the goods / Damn, I was supposed to get hooked up an hour = > ago, why does Joe have to sluff?" > > These meanings of sluff and sluff off are not in the OED, nor is sluffer = > (an alternative to "sluff" as a person). > > 6. With one possible exception, the earliest citation I see on Google = > for "sluffer" (being the easiest to search for, though probably a = > derivative of "sluff") is 1 February 2001 and it has the verb "sluff" as = > well:=20 > > ----- > One who sluffs off because he's in a small church or position will = > likely not have the opportunity to handle a bigger church or more = > responsible position. > > One who is growing is getting better and better at things, able to = > handle a bigger and more responsible load. He's not a sluffer or parker. > > (http://www.stevedavis.org/chapter%2019.html) > ----- > > 7. That possible exception is from 1924 in "The Field Artillery = > Journal," January-February edition, in a poem and is repeated in the = > poem: > > ----- > I'm a slouch and a slop and a sluffer,=20 > And my ears they are covered with hair,=20 > And I frequent inhabit the guardhouse,=20 > I'll be "priv." until "fini la guerre." > > = > (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1924/JAN_FEB_1924/JAN_FEB_1924_FULL_EDITIO= > N.pdf) > ----- > > This seems to match the meaning, but is so far removed in time from all = > the other hits that it seems dubious. Could this have been military = > slang that surfaced in Lance's wife's high school in the 1960s? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 06:01:40 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 02:01:40 -0400 Subject: Semantic drift: pornographic = 'characterized in any way by sexual acts' In-Reply-To: <201108091643.p79AmDw0004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jeffs used to frequent "pornographic clubs" in various cities. Me, too. Well, I hope no distant cousin dies. Going back to Texas may not be the sensible thing to do. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Aug 12 15:01:56 2011 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:01:56 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut Message-ID: While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the biggest price-drops in housing prices: http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-haircut-youve-found/ this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined "A 33% haircut– and we're just getting started" and includes "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% haircut- if it sold at list, which isn’t going to happen." It concludes: "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more properties will be wearing them. " which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, therefor "shorter"? I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU What Does Haircut Mean? 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and sell a security. 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral levels. Investopedia explains Haircut 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade at such a thin spread. 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case the market value falls. So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon than dialect.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 15:17:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:17:38 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090637.p7916Pdl019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have not been following this thread closely, but I can report, with certainty, that "sluff" and "sluff off" was used by one of our bridge players (a New Yorker) in 1985 (and years following, of course). He used it both with and without "off" with _no change in meaning_. It's possible he picked it up from reading bridge columns, as most of us learned to play bridge in college, largely teaching each other, although some already knew Hearts and/or Spades. But I did not get the sense that this was something new for him. VS-) On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:36 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ... > Transitive "sluff" - without "off" - has the same meaning as "discard" > in the playing-bridge-or-any-other-variant-of-whist sense. > ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 15:18:07 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:18:07 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: <201108121502.p7CAlMQI028646@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In financial terms, "haircut" usually refers to a discount in valuation, falling under #2 below. If you give me collateral worth $100 million dollars at today's market price, I have to consider that it may be worth less tomorrow (and you may be hard to find and ask for more collateral) and that the market price might not hold firm if I tried to sell $100 million worth of the collateral in one go. Accordingly, I put a haircut on the collateral. The size of the haircut will reflect the quality of the collateral. I might not haircut a T-bill at all; a good quality corporate bond may get a 10% haircut, today a mortgage bond might get a 50% haircut. More generally, "haircut" is used to mean discount. The "home price haircut" is not very common, and the "shorter and shorter" comment is confusing to me, too, and looks like it was invented on the spot by a writer who should be less creative in his or her imagery. That said, "haircut" meaning "discount" has a long history. DanG On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Housing/financial haircut > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a > usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the > asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a > little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across > is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the > biggest price-drops in housing prices: > http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-haircut-youve-found/ > > this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined > "A 33% haircut– and we're just getting started" > and includes > "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% > haircut- if it sold at list, which isn’t going to happen." > It concludes: > "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more > properties will be wearing them. " > > which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I > first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, > therefor "shorter"? > > I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here > http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU > > What Does Haircut Mean? > 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and > sell a security. > > 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the > purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral > levels. > > Investopedia explains Haircut > 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade > at such a thin spread. > > 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be > devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case > the market value falls. > > > So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first > glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. > (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon > than dialect.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 12 15:58:04 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:58:04 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: <201108121518.p7CAlMvL022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For more on the history of the financial "haircut," see William Safire's 2009 On Language column: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11wwln-safire-t.html I provided him with cites back to 1955, which I presented in full here: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0901B&L=ADS-L&P=R2196 --bgz On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > In financial terms, "haircut" usually refers to a discount in > valuation, falling under #2 below. If you give me collateral worth > $100 million dollars at today's market price, I have to consider that > it may be worth less tomorrow (and you may be hard to find and ask for > more collateral) and that the market price might not hold firm if I > tried to sell $100 million worth of the collateral in one go. > Accordingly, I put a haircut on the collateral. The size of the > haircut will reflect the quality of the collateral. I might not > haircut a T-bill at all; a good quality corporate bond may get a 10% > haircut, today a mortgage bond might get a 50% haircut. > > More generally, "haircut" is used to mean discount. The "home price > haircut" is not very common, and the "shorter and shorter" comment is > confusing to me, too, and looks like it was invented on the spot by a > writer who should be less creative in his or her imagery. That said, > "haircut" meaning "discount" has a long history. > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Ann Burlingham > wrote: > > > > While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a > > usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the > > asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a > > little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across > > is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the > > biggest price-drops in housing prices: > > http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-haircut-youve-found/ > > > > this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined > > "A 33% haircut– and we're just getting started" > > and includes > > "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% > > haircut- if it sold at list, which isn’t going to happen." > > It concludes: > > "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more > > properties will be wearing them. " > > > > which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I > > first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, > > therefor "shorter"? > > > > I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here > > http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU > > > > What Does Haircut Mean? > > 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and > > sell a security. > > > > 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the > > purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral > > levels. > > > > Investopedia explains Haircut > > 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade > > at such a thin spread. > > > > 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be > > devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case > > the market value falls. > > > > > > So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first > > glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. > > (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon > > than dialect.) > > -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Aug 12 16:15:08 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:15:08 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: We've talked about "haircut" before. It derives ultimately from Securities and Exchange Commission Rule 15c3-1, which requires securities brokerage firms to meet specified net capital requirements. In determining whether the firms have sufficient net capital, the rule provides for discounts, known as "haircuts," from the securities' market values. The reason is that the purpose of the rule is to require firms to have sufficient capital in times of stress, and more volatile securities provide a less certain cushion in such times. "Haircut" has been broadly extended to refer to a variety of different kinds of valuation discounts. I've never heard "shorter" in reference to this kind of haircut before. I guess the concept is that a shorter haircut is one that removes a lot of hair. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Goncharoff Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:18 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Housing/financial haircut In financial terms, "haircut" usually refers to a discount in valuation, falling under #2 below. If you give me collateral worth $100 million dollars at today's market price, I have to consider that it may be worth less tomorrow (and you may be hard to find and ask for more collateral) and that the market price might not hold firm if I tried to sell $100 million worth of the collateral in one go. Accordingly, I put a haircut on the collateral. The size of the haircut will reflect the quality of the collateral. I might not haircut a T-bill at all; a good quality corporate bond may get a 10% haircut, today a mortgage bond might get a 50% haircut. More generally, "haircut" is used to mean discount. The "home price haircut" is not very common, and the "shorter and shorter" comment is confusing to me, too, and looks like it was invented on the spot by a writer who should be less creative in his or her imagery. That said, "haircut" meaning "discount" has a long history. DanG On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Housing/financial haircut > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a > usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the > asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a > little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across > is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the > biggest price-drops in housing prices: > http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-hair cut-youve-found/ > > this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined > "A 33% haircut- and we're just getting started" > and includes > "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% > haircut- if it sold at list, which isn't going to happen." > It concludes: > "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more > properties will be wearing them. " > > which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I > first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, > therefor "shorter"? > > I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here > http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU > > What Does Haircut Mean? > 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and > sell a security. > > 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the > purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral > levels. > > Investopedia explains Haircut > 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade > at such a thin spread. > > 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be > devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case > the market value falls. > > > So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first > glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. > (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon > than dialect.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 16:20:03 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:20:03 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance Message-ID: I'm not sure how much interest there might be in this, but there are some potentially attention-worthy elements in the story of an 18-year old drunk (no longer) US Olympic skier arrested after an incident on a JetBlue flight. There seems to be a dichotomy between the more formal traditional media (and their websites') reports of "urinating" and the bloggers comments on "peeing", while the guy's own explanation involved "pissing". I also had a question concerning the MSNBC headline: http://goo.gl/KwCYN Olympic dreams dashed after unfortunate in-flight incident I am not sure whether to characterize this as an unfortunate misinterpretation of events or their attempt to give the kid the benefit of a doubt. My own stylistic gremlins would not allow me to use "dreams dashed" in this context, as this would have implied external or independent (random) agency--being beaten by someone else (including losses due to own admitted mistakes /during the competition/), accidental injury, unusual circumstances, parental action, etc. But, in this case, being kicked off the team is a direct product of the skier's own asinine behavior (drunk or not)--basically, if it's your own fault, your dreams can't be "dashed" (in my writing style). What I am trying to figure out is whether it's my own predilections or some kind of received rule or some kind of frequency analysis. In fact, in this particular headline, as an editor, I would not have used "unfortunate" either, because it also suggests a random act or an external agent. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Aug 12 16:36:36 2011 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:36:36 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: <201108121608.p7CAlM7f022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: Housing/financial haircut > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For more on the history of the financial "haircut," see William > Safire's 2009 On Language column: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11wwln-safire-t.html > > I provided him with cites back to 1955, which I presented in full here: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0901B&L=ADS-L&P=R2196 Ah, thanks! I did search the ADS-L archive before writing, finding mostly discussions of mullets (and shags). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Aug 12 17:04:28 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:04:28 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If Jet Blue sold ANYONE 8 drinks in a flight, they are at least partly to blame. If they sold even one drink to an 18-year-old, they violated another (albeit misguided) US law. Sent from my iPad On Aug 12, 2011, at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I'm not sure how much interest there might be in this, but there are some > potentially attention-worthy elements in the story of an 18-year old drunk > (no longer) US Olympic skier arrested after an incident on a JetBlue flight. > There seems to be a dichotomy between the more formal traditional media (and > their websites') reports of "urinating" and the bloggers comments on > "peeing", while the guy's own explanation involved "pissing". > > I also had a question concerning the MSNBC headline: > > http://goo.gl/KwCYN > Olympic dreams dashed after unfortunate in-flight incident > > I am not sure whether to characterize this as an unfortunate > misinterpretation of events or their attempt to give the kid the benefit of > a doubt. My own stylistic gremlins would not allow me to use "dreams dashed" > in this context, as this would have implied external or independent (random) > agency--being beaten by someone else (including losses due to own admitted > mistakes /during the competition/), accidental injury, unusual > circumstances, parental action, etc. But, in this case, being kicked off the > team is a direct product of the skier's own asinine behavior (drunk or > not)--basically, if it's your own fault, your dreams can't be "dashed" (in > my writing style). What I am trying to figure out is whether it's my own > predilections or some kind of received rule or some kind of frequency > analysis. In fact, in this particular headline, as an editor, I would not > have used "unfortunate" either, because it also suggests a random act or an > external agent. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 17:25:08 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:25:08 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching Message-ID: A number of liberal-leaning blogs used the "pearl-clutching" metaphor in the last few days. TalkingPointsMemo used it twice in the last 24 hours. Yet, I am not even sure they are all using it in the same manner. StraightDope had a discussion on this in 2005, but there was no clear resolution--there appear to be two competing explanation, both, of course, involving grabbing pearl necklaces in excitement. One is simply a mark of being excited, shocked or upset, the other adds a connotation of being prissy or unfashionable, which gives it an air of flakiness. There is some agreement /and/ disagreement on the latter--some prefer the narrow meaning, others are unhappy with it. UD has "clutching my pearls" entry that helpfully suggests "A new phrase among the gay Maryland circle". On second thought, it does sound like something RuPaul (or Church Lady) might say. Any thoughts on origin/meaning? It appears too new to show up in any dictionaries. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Aug 12 17:38:34 2011 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:38:34 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/12/11 1:25 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > A number of liberal-leaning blogs used the "pearl-clutching" metaphor in the > last few days. TalkingPointsMemo used it twice in the last 24 hours. Yet, I > am not even sure they are all using it in the same manner. StraightDope had > a discussion on this in 2005, but there was no clear resolution--there > appear to be two competing explanation, both, of course, involving grabbing > pearl necklaces in excitement. One is simply a mark of being excited, > shocked or upset, the other adds a connotation of being prissy or > unfashionable, which gives it an air of flakiness. There is some agreement > /and/ disagreement on the latter--some prefer the narrow meaning, others are > unhappy with it. UD has "clutching my pearls" entry that helpfully suggests > "A new phrase among the gay Maryland circle". On second thought, it does > sound like something RuPaul (or Church Lady) might say. > > Any thoughts on origin/meaning? It appears too new to show up in any > dictionaries. I've been on Ravelry (a knitting/crocheting/spinning social network) for about 4 years. In one of the forums I participate in, "pearl clutching" is regularly used as a pejorative, describing someone who "tsk tsks" in disapproval at some action or statement. The disapproval, with or without prissy-face, is key. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Fri Aug 12 18:04:09 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:04:09 -0700 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: I read the entire article, and I still have no clue what on earth it has to do with language -- Hasn't a hot dog always been a hot dog no matter how you cook it? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Aug 12 18:41:27 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:41:27 -0500 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: Message from Brian Hitchcock, Fri 8/12/2011 1:04 PM: I read the entire article, and I still have no clue what on earth it has to do with language -- Hasn't a hot dog always been a hot dog no matter how you cook it? ______________________________________ Reply: The main point of linguistic interest is the picture accompanying the article in the link below (mentioned in my Aug. 10 message). IAC, ads-l has treated the origin of "hot dog" in considerable detail, and I thought that some ads-l members might be interested in this latest article. Usually, long articles on the hot dog say something (albeit incorrect) about the origin of the term, and the absence of such an attempt in the recent NY Times article may be meaningful. I.e., the absence might reflect an awareness on the part of the author that it would be better to sidestep the issue of the term's origin than risk getting it wrong. Gerald Cohen (co-author with Barry Popik and the late David Shulman of the book Origin Of The Term "Hot Dog", 2004; additional, very valuable information has since surfaced thanks to Fred Shapiro, Ben Zimmer, and Barry Popik) ________________________________ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Sent: Wed 8/10/2011 9:56 AM To: American Dialect Society Cc: bapopik at aol.com Subject: hot dog article in NY Times For "hot dog" afficionados: Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the New York hot dog: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-at-a-time.html The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters." G. Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Fri Aug 12 20:51:03 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 17:51:03 -0300 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108121842.p7CAlMg1022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When I read the response from BH I had a feeling he wasn't aware of the relationship between ADS-L and hotdogs (and hamburgers too). I, personally, have found the whole thing fascinating, as I think most on the list have as well. And the "Hot Frankfurter" sign only adds to the mystique of the whole affair. DAD Message from Brian Hitchcock, Fri 8/12/2011 1:04 PM: I read the entire article, and I still have no clue what on earth it has = to do with language -- Hasn't a hot dog always been a hot dog no matter how = you cook it? ______________________________________ =20 Reply:=20 The main point of linguistic interest is the picture accompanying the = article in the link below (mentioned in my Aug. 10 message). =20 IAC, ads-l has treated the origin of "hot dog" in considerable detail, = and I thought that some ads-l members might be interested in this latest = article. Usually, long articles on the hot dog say something (albeit = incorrect) about the origin of the term, and the absence of such an = attempt in the recent NY Times article may be meaningful. I.e., the = absence might reflect an awareness on the part of the author that it = would be better to sidestep the issue of the term's origin than risk = getting it wrong. =20 Gerald Cohen (co-author with Barry Popik and the late David Shulman of the book = Origin Of The Term "Hot Dog", 2004; additional, very valuable information has since surfaced thanks to Fred = Shapiro, Ben Zimmer, and Barry Popik) ________________________________ : hot dog article in NY Times For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = New York hot dog: =20 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= t-a-time.html =20 The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." =20 The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 =20 G. Cohen =20 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Aug 12 23:43:44 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 16:43:44 -0700 Subject: Jook (1932), juk (1939) and juk (1993) Message-ID: In Lisa See's "Shanghai Girls: A Novel," she uses the word jook five times, defining it the first time as "rice porridge" and italicizing it each time (http://ow.ly/628eX). In my experience, the word is common enough in conversation with Cantonese speakers--hence See's choice rather than "congee" or "rice porridge"--but does not occur in the OED (though the word "jook" is listed). Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congee) spells the Cantonese as "juk" which Wiktionary confirms as "juk1" for 粥 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%B2%A5). The word in Korean is also "juk" 죽, which has the same hanja 粥 (http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A3%BD). That spelling is not in the OED, either. As indicated in citation 2 below, the dish has a history of being served to Chinese clientele in the US. I'm sure there are earlier citations than these available on Chinese and Korean menus, though the earliest may not be written out in the alphabet. JOOK 1. The earliest Google Books citation I find is 1932, which interestingly gives "chowder" instead of "porridge." "Strange newes from China: a first Chinese cookery book," by Townley Searle, A. Ouseley, ltd., 1932 (http://ow.ly/628lf). A. Page 138: 48. JI YUK JOOK RICE CHOWDER WITH MINCED PORK B. Page 146: YU SARN JOOK RICE CHOWDER WITH FRESH FISH, &c. 2. 1933 "Better food, Volume 38," by Boston Cooking School, Whitney Publications, Inc., 1933 (http://ow.ly/628oP) Page 156: ..._"jer yook jook,"_ a rice broth in which toothsome meat balls are cooked. _"Jer yook jook"_ isn't found on the menu of any ordinary chop-suey restaurant. It is to be had only in a few places where the patronage is mostly Chinese, so the general public has... _"Jer yook jook"_ is an ideal... JUK - CANTONESE 1. 1939 "The Red Cross courier, Volumes 19-20," by American National Red Cross (http://ow.ly/6293j) Page 53: Chinese authorities say cracked wheat makes better "juk," a favorite dish, than rice. 2. 1939 "The Health officer, Volume 4", United States. Public Health Service (http://ow.ly/629hk) Page 126: Acknowledgments indicate that "The cracked wheat is going like hotcakes and makes better 'juk' than rice; is more popular and more nourishing. One Chinese woman... 2. 1974 "East West: the Chinese-American news magazine, Volume 8 (http://ow.ly/6297z, but the citation does not occur there. It appears at http://ow.ly/6298u.) Food is delicious still cheaper than in the US For breakfast, we had "juk" — much ier than even Sam Wo's and at US $.50 3. 1974 "Mrs. Lee's cookbook: Nonya recipes and other favourite recipes," by Chin Koon Lee (http://ow.ly/629bK) No citation available JUK - KOREAN Around 1981, there are some hits according to Google Books, but nothing that can be verified there. 1993 "Gourmet, Volume 53, Issues 7-12," by Pearl Violette Newfield Metzelthin, Condé Nast Publications (http://ow.ly/629rB, citation at http://ow.ly/629sZ) Page 89: The menu, in Korean and English, is reader-friendly if sometimes silly: "Tortellini" is the translation for the Korean dumplings called mandu; "risotto" for juk, a soupy rice-flour porridge. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 23:50:21 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:50:21 -0400 Subject: lobster Message-ID: One of the latest stories on Consumerist retells Zabar's "apology" for misleading consumers for 20 years. Of course, that, in itself, does not have an ADS hook. But there is a hook! http://goo.gl/MqgOJ > "Crayfish are known locally as lobsters or crawdads or mudbugs'," > 83-year-old owner Saul Zabar told 1010 WINS. The blend "consists of > wild-caught crayfish and occasionally when we could get them we'd also add > langoustine, some mayonnaise a little bit of salt, a drop of sugar and we've > been calling this lobster salad." > > The charm of the story failed to work wonders on the Maine Lobster Council, > who gave the deli a call. Since then, Zabar's has changed the name on the > label to "Seafarer Salad." However, the label on the shelf remains "Lobster > Salad." Why? > The bottom line is that Zabar's has been pretending to sell lobster when they were actually selling crayfish, with an occasional mix-in of langostinos. Red Lobster has got in trouble some time ago when they were passing langostinos for "lobster". So they solved the problem by using what they thought was a different English name for langostinos--"rock lobster". Langostinos and langoustine are the same thing and the OED claims they are identical with "Dublin prawn". "Rock lobster", on the other hand, has a completely different definition: rock lobster n. any of various spiny lobsters or marine crayfish > constituting the family Palinuridae, esp. of the genera Palinurus, > Panulirus, and Jasus. > So, according to the OED, at least one kind of crayfish is identified with one kind of "lobster". Spiny lobsters and marine crayfish are quite distinct, so I am not sure what's going on here in terms of crustacean taxonomy, but there are enough complications here to wonder if Zabar's explanation really is completely sincere. But it gets more complicated. OED "crayfish" does cover lobster--and even crab, although that particular entry is rather weak (the identification is between various spellings, such as crauys and crevise, with Latin "cancer", which is not the same thing as identity with "crab"). The problem is that these entries run out at the beginning of 18th century. Under "current use", we get 3.b.: With London fishmongers and generally on the sea-coast of Great Britain: The > Spiny Lobster, Palinurus vulgaris, the Langouste of the French. > But that's the wrong direction--this explains why someone might refer to langoustines or lobsters as "crayfish", not vice versa. Going in the other direction, under lobster 1.a., OED covers genus Homarus, which is what the Maine lobster is all about. Also included are other large crustaceans that resemble them. Then, there is 1.b.: Applied with qualification to other crustaceans resembling the above. > Norway lobster n. Nephrops norvegicus. spiny lobster n. (also thorny > lobster) Palinurus vulgaris = crayfish n. 3b. Some crayfishes are called > fresh-water lobsters. > If this is the case, Zabar's could have got away with just changing the name to "spiny lobster salad". Is /not/ doing so an admission of guilt? FDA might have something to say about that still. But, as far as general taxonomy is concerned, the OED fails to distinguish between langoustines, spiny lobsters, rock lobsters and various marine crayfish because any two of them are linked under different entries. This needs to be cleaned up. They don't all mean the same thing. VS-) PS: I should note that last time I was at Zabar's, they had samples of "lobster salad" and I tried it. I asked one of the guys at the counter if this was really lobster because it tasted more like ... langostinos (taste, texture and size of pieces were all way off). He responded that it was "like a small lobster", so it was pointless to argue. But I dropped the subject and did not think about it until I saw this story. Had no one else noticed in 20 years?? Or is this like going into a small restaurant and getting nameless cola when asking for "coke"? (That's something else I experienced just this week--legally, they could be liable if they don't correct the customer's request.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 12 23:53:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:53:06 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <5DC0A83C-953F-447E-A028-6618C41BA446@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8/12/2011 01:04 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >If Jet Blue sold ANYONE 8 drinks in a flight, they are at least >partly to blame. If they sold even one drink to an 18-year-old, they >violated another (albeit misguided) US law. I believe the pisser in question imbibed his 8 drinks before he boarded. But I was only half-listening when I first heard the report and I have not followed it since. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 23:54:26 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:54:26 -0400 Subject: cursade for childern books Message-ID: http://goo.gl/dtPPK ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 23:59:46 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:59:46 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108122353.p7CAlMsl022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the spirit of full (available) disclosure, most stories DO mention that it is /not known/ (to the reporters, I presume) whether he consumed the drinks on the flight. This being a red-eye, it seems unlikely--at least, I don't recall JetBlue serving alcohol on the flights that I was on. Whatever the case, when the story expands, someone else is likely to end up with a fine or a suspended liquor license. But if JetBlue had any part of it, we may see them ban alcohol altogether for all flights. VS-) On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/12/2011 01:04 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > >If Jet Blue sold ANYONE 8 drinks in a flight, they are at least > >partly to blame. If they sold even one drink to an 18-year-old, they > >violated another (albeit misguided) US law. > > I believe the pisser in question imbibed his 8 drinks before he > boarded. But I was only half-listening when I first heard the report > and I have not followed it since. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 00:05:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:05:48 -0400 Subject: Bachmann Message-ID: Has anyone mentioned the line from last night's debate? "What submission means to us is respect." It was not entirely clear whether the audience was booing the question or the original comment that the question was based on (likely the former, given the crowd). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 13 00:41:00 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:41:00 -0400 Subject: Flying coaches, 1776 and possible interpretation Message-ID: A correspondent cites "flying coaches" (as an amusement at fairs) from 1776. Is that early enough to be useful to the OED? And he speculates about what Richardson may have been referring to in "Clarissa". (For what it's worth, I think he's wrong there -- the better supposition is a "roundabout" with horses on chains. >The _Chester Chronicle Or Commercial Intelligencer_ (Thursday, May >9, 1776) has the following article about the horse racing venue: > >On Monday last, during the time of the race, a young woman, servant >to a farmer in this neighbourhood, had her pocket cut from her side >by two ill-looking men, it is supposed, who crowded up to her while >the horses were running; and, by the description given of them, are, >not improbably, of that vagrant tribe which infest such meetings >with gaming-tables, flying-coaches, &c. whom our worthy chief >Magistrate very judiciously prevented from exhibiting their delusive >practices on the race-grounds, and imposing upon credulous and unwary youth. > >This "vagrant tribe" sounds like the caravan sort that Dawn mentions >as still part of popular entertainment in annual fairs in the >UK. The "flying-coaches" here seem to be in the same category as >gambling equipment. Since Richardson himself rode a "chamber horse" >to reduce weight, I would suspect that the "flying horses" and >"flying coaches" were mechanical contraptions used to stimulate >"unwary youth" like the girls Lovelace and his tribe were fond of seducing. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 13 01:05:00 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:05:00 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 Message-ID: As Judith Anderson Stuart wrote [on another list], a 1721 print containing a carousel with what could be called "flying horses" (they are up in the air!) appears in the Wikipedia article "William Hogarth - The South Sea Scheme". I wonder how true it is to (amusement?) devices of the time. For example, I can't imagine it being comfortable for country fair patrons to mount. And it reminds me more of a device of torture (I assume that was intentional to Hogarth?). There was, of course, "riding the horse", "riding the rail". Several points interest me, assuming this carousel is to some degree true to life: 1) If I am seeing the Wikipedia image correctly, this "Wheel Ride" was turned by manpower via a bar extending through the axle on both sides 2) There are definitely horses being ridden ... although I'm not sure all the mounts are horses. 3) The horses are not on chains, so they do not "fly" out as the wheel turns. Joel At 8/12/2011 09:45 AM, John Dussinger wrote: >Postscript to my last: > >It just dawned on me (sorry Dawn!) that we can see these "flying >horses" in Hogarth's "South Sea" print of 1721. The caption on top >of the ride's post, "Who'l Ride," is similar to Lovelace's mimicry >of the hawkers at the fair: "Who rides next! Who rides next!" >Richardson may have had his friend's print in mind while >categorizing libertines as gamblers destructive of the state. I wish >that I could reproduce this print here. I have it hanging in my study. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 14:13:11 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 07:13:11 -0700 Subject: Fwd: pearl-clutching Message-ID: from a friend who uses various versions of the expression and has for years: Begin forwarded message: > From: Chris Ambidge > Date: August 12, 2011 4:47:34 PM PDT > To: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: Fwd: pearl-clutching > > Hello Arnold: > > I can tell you exactly when I first ran across "pearl-clutching". My friend Bill Morrison, anglican cleric in Victoria BC ... wrote it in an article in *Integrator*, the newsletter of Integrity which I edit. The online version of the article is here: http://toronto.integritycanada.org/integrator/i45.html#456 . The reference is in the third paragraph. The issue date on that volume is 2004 12 15, though the article was written a couple of months before that. > > That dating is for the use of the exact phrase "pearl-clutching". Bill was the first person to arrange it thataway, and I recall being impressed with the felicity of the phrase. > > However, I'd been using variations on same, as in "eek! clutch the pearls", or "where ARE my pearls when I need to clutch them", for years before that, all of them meaning an expression of mock/hyperbolic horror (as in, "I'm nearly out of tea. Clutch the pearls!"). I've also seen a Tshirt in Out In The Street, our local queer-ware gift shop, and source for homo-funny shirts, with the slogan "In Case Of Emergency .... clutch pearls". Someone gave me that shirt in 2000 or so. And the reason they gave it to me was that it's something I said more than once (so earlier than that). > > with a date-limited search on Google, I got "clutch the pearls" in the Buffalo Evening News : "23 Apr 1993 - WELL, CLUTCH the pearls, girls! As Antoine Merriweather, the lip-glossed character on "In Living Color," David Alan Grier became America's most flamboyant ..." , but that "earliest date" might be an artefact of the date of the posting to the Interwebz, as opposed to the date of the actual publication. "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these things are just lists of words and phrases. E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 14:38:39 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 07:38:39 -0700 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131413.p7DA05EL022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: i don't know how this posting got so messed up. i suppose it's all decipherable -- but note that everything in the posting is a forward from Chris Ambidge, except for the last bit (below), which is from me: On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, > glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these > things are just lists of words and phrases. > > E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. > > it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 13 15:46:12 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:46:12 -0400 Subject: "Could use to [infinitive]" In-Reply-To: <201108131438.p7DA05ER022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm familiar with "could use" meaning something like "want[s]" or "need[s]" or "could benefit from": e.g., "I sure could use a beer" or "My house could use a paint job" (or "My house could use [a/some] painting"). Recently a correspondent has asked about "could use to [infinitive]" in this sense. E.g., instead of "I could use a break" one might say "I could use to take a break" (meaning approx. "I want to take a break"). [I suppose one might could also say "My house could use to be painted", etc.] I don't think I'm familiar with this usage. I do find examples on-line. Is it regional? [Note also that this usage provides another example of ostensible "to be/get" elision parallel to "need/want/etc. washed": instead of "My car could use to be washed" (unfamiliar to me), a Pittsburgh or Midland speaker could say "My car could use washed" ... I do believe I've heard this construction and examples are indeed found on-line (e.g., search <<"could use cleaned">>).] -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 13 16:04:42 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:04:42 -0700 Subject: Throat singing Message-ID: Mongolian throat singing is in the news. (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=story&id=2015896486&) The OED has it as an alternative under the entry for "overtone singing," which seems to be the more general term, but you have to do an advanced search to find it. Inuit throat singing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_throat_singing), a different sort of singing is not in the OED. FWIW, according to "Throat Singing" on the Altaic Wiki (http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Throat+Singing), throat singing is practiced in eight different Altatic cultures. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 17:15:49 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:15:49 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131438.p7CJ00k6028646@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote > i don't know how this posting got so messed up. i suppose it's all decipherable -- but note that everything in the posting is a forward from Chris Ambidge, except for the last bit (below), which is from me: > > On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, >> glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these >> things are just lists of words and phrases. >> >> E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. >> >> it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. Following the lead for "In Living Color" here is a citation in 1990 from NewsBank Access World News: WHO'S THE JOKE ON, ANYWAY? DEBATING `IN LIVING COLOR' The Record (New Jersey) - Sunday, May 13, 1990 Author: By Virginia Mann, Record Television Critic: The Record Antoine, played by David Alan Grier, says he has just three words to describe actor Ralph Macchio: fab-u-lous. And Blaine, one of the many creations of gifted comic Damon Wayans, thinks Glenn Close is a man. Otherwise informed, he squeals, "Well, clutch the pearls. What a sneaky thing to do." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 17:42:52 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:42:52 -0700 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131413.p7DA05EL022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Fwd: pearl-clutching > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > from a friend who uses various versions of the expression and has for years:... to go along with the American black gay usage, here's a British example: oh glorious rapture, vertu has launched. (flash) the phones (called "instruments" in vertu-speak) are okay, but the real meat seems to be the one-touch vertu concierge: allows one to find theatre tickets, make reservations, or (assumably) order KFC. and, as promised, they are indeed clutch-the-pearls expensive: €6000 to €24000. golly. posted by patricking on Mar 27, 2002 http://www.metafilter.com/tags/british?page=3 this is about the (British-based) Vertu luxury mobile phones ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 18:01:17 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:01:17 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131716.p7CMKcvv022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a citation in 1934 (probably) that may help to illuminate the genesis of the expression by providing a use of the phrase and the stylized gesture in a play. Title: Escape me never!: A play in three acts Author: Margaret Kennedy Publisher: W. Heinemann, ltd. Date: 1934 (Google Books snippet view; Not verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) [Extracted text from GB] The Butler enters, much dishevelled. Butler If you will excuse, my lady, there has been a thief. Lady M. [clutching her pearls] Good heavens! Butler A strange girl has been found in the Signorina's room. Sir Ivor A strange girl? http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=+dishevelled#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=clutching#search_anchor The same author a few years earlier in 1930 (probably) used the same scene. The 1934 (probably) play may be some kind of rewrite. Title: The fool of the family: continuing the story of Sanger's circus from "The constant nymph." Author: Margaret Kennedy Publisher: Doubleday, Doran, 1930 (Google Books snippet view; Not verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) [Extracted text from GB] "If you will excuse, my lady, there has been a thief." The goose shrieked and put a hand to her pearls to make sure that they were still there. "A strange girl has been found in Mademoiselle's room. If you will excuse, I will send for the police." "A strange girl? What strange girl? How did she get in?' "Please, I think she came with the schools. There have three schools come this afternoon. She has got in so." http://books.google.com/books?id=NdceAAAAMAAJ&q=pearls#search_anchor There is also a 1970 edition, so there is greater uncertainty about the real date. Title: The fool of the family. Author: Margaret Kennedy Publisher: London, Heinemann, 1970. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: pearl-clutching > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Arnold Zwicky wrote >> i don't know how this posting got so messed up. i suppose it's all decipherable -- but note that everything in the posting is a forward from Chris Ambidge, except for the last bit (below), which is from me: >> >> On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>> >>> "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, >>> glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these >>> things are just lists of words and phrases. >>> >>> E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. >>> >>> it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. > > Following the lead for "In Living Color" here is a citation in 1990 > from NewsBank Access World News: > > WHO'S THE JOKE ON, ANYWAY? DEBATING `IN LIVING COLOR' > The Record (New Jersey) - Sunday, May 13, 1990 > Author: By Virginia Mann, Record Television Critic: The Record > > Antoine, played by David Alan Grier, says he has just three words to > describe actor Ralph Macchio: fab-u-lous. And Blaine, one of the many > creations of gifted comic Damon Wayans, thinks Glenn Close is a man. > Otherwise informed, he squeals, "Well, clutch the pearls. What a > sneaky thing to do." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 18:13:10 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:13:10 -0700 Subject: Anna Siewierska Message-ID: has died: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/anna-siewierska/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 19:36:44 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:36:44 -0400 Subject: "all things + NP" Message-ID: CNN promises to keep you posted on "all things campaign politics." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 22:25:23 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:25:23 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108121620.p7CAlMVB022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > the benefit of _a_ doubt Not _the benefit of _the_ doubt" ? Is _the benefit of the doubt going the way of _on the average_ _hit the wall_ _in the zone_ _drive … up the wall_ etc.? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 13 22:43:35 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:43:35 -0700 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132226.p7DA05Mx022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >> the benefit of _a_ doubt > > Not > > _the benefit of _the_ doubt" > > ? > > Is > > _the benefit of the doubt > > going the way of > > _on the average_ > > _hit the wall_ > > _in the zone_ > > _drive … up the wall_ > > etc.? > -- IMHO there are quite a few of these. The articles "a" and "the" are frequently indistinguishable in speech, meaning that people are necessarily going to reanalyze them. Another complicating factor is that in many cases, either article can be used: (She got) a/the chance, (There is) a/the risk of... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 23:08:22 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 19:08:22 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132243.p7DLOfBN022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's not that I wanted Wilson to have conniptions on the subject, but I actually debated with myself as to which article to put in. In the end, I decided it made no difference. If you don't like it, teach me something new... VS-) On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > On Aug 13, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > >> the benefit of _a_ doubt > > > > Not > > > > _the benefit of _the_ doubt" > > > > ? > > > > Is > > > > _the benefit of the doubt > > > > going the way of > > > > _on the average_ > > > > _hit the wall_ > > > > _in the zone_ > > > > _drive … up the wall_ > > > > etc.? > > -- > > IMHO there are quite a few of these. > > The articles "a" and "the" are frequently indistinguishable in speech, > meaning that people are necessarily going to reanalyze them. > > Another complicating factor is that in many cases, either article can be > used: (She got) a/the chance, (There is) a/the risk of... > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 23:24:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 19:24:25 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132308.p7DLOfCP022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, get this. Ad for a local restaurant: "Peerless. "Big on Seafood. "FAMOUS at Steak. "Since 1938." Rationalize away, it still says "at." JL On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:08 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: more taboo avoidance > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's not that I wanted Wilson to have conniptions on the subject, but I > actually debated with myself as to which article to put in. In the end, I > decided it made no difference. If you don't like it, teach me something > new... > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett >wro= > te: > > > On Aug 13, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok < > aardvark66 at gmail.com= > > > > wrote: > > >> the benefit of _a_ doubt > > > > > > Not > > > > > > _the benefit of _the_ doubt" > > > > > > ? > > > > > > Is > > > > > > _the benefit of the doubt > > > > > > going the way of > > > > > > _on the average_ > > > > > > _hit the wall_ > > > > > > _in the zone_ > > > > > > _drive =85 up the wall_ > > > > > > etc.? > > > -- > > > > IMHO there are quite a few of these. > > > > The articles "a" and "the" are frequently indistinguishable in speech, > > meaning that people are necessarily going to reanalyze them. > > > > Another complicating factor is that in many cases, either article can be > > used: (She got) a/the chance, (There is) a/the risk of... > > > > Benjamin Barrett > > Seattle, WA > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 14 01:30:26 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:30:26 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: <201108130105.p7D151io026630@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Searching Google for "rowlandson bartholomew fair" will turn up various versions of a plate by George Rowlandson from 1808 from a book; (perhaps earlier as a separate print). There is a ribbed contrivance in the lower left that my source says is a flying horses. Very likely, but none of the versions I can find are quite clear enough to show people riding it. Can't image what else it could be. though. On the right side of the print, in the middle distance, there is a ferris-wheel like ride, and in the foreground something like a carriage body on a swing. My source is Thomas M. Garrett's dissertation on pleasure gardens in NYC, up to 1865, p. 229, footnote. As for the Hogarth print, I have that in a fine large page collection of his etchings, published by Dover decades ago. There is a hallucinatory element to the print, which probably affects the representation of the flying horses. In particular, the ride is pretty high above the heads of the people, and would have required a very tall ladder to mount and dismount. Hard to suppose that a ride requiring that could be a paying proposition. Hogarth represents the horses as all facing outward, unlike modern merry-go-rounds, but perhaps the point of the ride was not the sense of a chase after the horse in front of you, but the view outward over the heads on the crowd & seeing the whole fair. There's a ride at Coney Island right now, one sort of like the revolving restaurants at the top of tall buildings, but without the bad meals. A large round room is slowing raised a hundred feet or so on a central column, rotated, and then lowered again. The point is the view, not any sense of giddiness from speedy movement. In any event, it seems that flying horses (the thing) existed from the early-mid 18th C, though the name is only found in the late 18th C. This also raises the question -- "begs the question", in modern parlance -- what was the Ferris wheel called, before Mr Ferris? Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late 1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? GAT On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > As Judith Anderson Stuart wrote [on another list], a 1721 print > containing a carousel with what could be called "flying horses" (they > are up in the air!) appears in the Wikipedia article "William Hogarth > - The South Sea Scheme". I wonder how true it is to (amusement?) > devices of the time. For example, I can't imagine it being > comfortable for country fair patrons to mount. And it reminds me more > of a device of torture (I assume that was intentional to > Hogarth?). There was, of course, "riding the horse", "riding the rail". > > Several points interest me, assuming this carousel is to some degree > true to life: > 1) If I am seeing the Wikipedia image correctly, this "Wheel Ride" > was turned by manpower via a bar extending through the axle on both sides > 2) There are definitely horses being ridden ... although I'm not > sure all the mounts are horses. > 3) The horses are not on chains, so they do not "fly" out as the wheel > turns. > > Joel > > At 8/12/2011 09:45 AM, John Dussinger wrote: > >> Postscript to my last: >> >> It just dawned on me (sorry Dawn!) that we can see these "flying >> horses" in Hogarth's "South Sea" print of 1721. The caption on top >> of the ride's post, "Who'l Ride," is similar to Lovelace's mimicry >> of the hawkers at the fair: "Who rides next! Who rides next!" >> Richardson may have had his friend's print in mind while >> categorizing libertines as gamblers destructive of the state. I wish >> that I could reproduce this print here. I have it hanging in my study. >> > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 14 02:51:17 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:51:17 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Hogarth print is, I believe, intended as a satirical condemnation of the speculators and embezzlers of the circa 1720 South Sea Bubble (see, e.g., Wikipedia "South Sea Company"). My guess is that Hogarth turned the downward-pointing spokes of the fair ride into upward-pointing ones, and had the horses and therefore riders facing outward, iin order to construct a device of public display and humiliation, an analog to the stocks of medieval through early modern times. Face-to-face, in other words. (Thus Hogarth probably had no intention of creating a money-making device.) For the predecessors of Ferris wheels, going back to the 17th century (and for a couple of early illustrations), see Wikipedia's article "Ferris Wheels", "Early History". (It uses the term "pleasure wheels".) According to Wiki, they were "turned by strong men". Presumably the same motive force was used for the early "flying horses". (The Hogarth print shows a lever near the base, projecting out on both sides.) Joel At 8/13/2011 09:30 PM, George Thompson wrote: >Searching Google for "rowlandson bartholomew fair" will turn up various >versions of a plate by George Rowlandson from 1808 from a book; (perhaps >earlier as a separate print). There is a ribbed contrivance in the lower >left that my source says is a flying horses. Very likely, but none of the >versions I can find are quite clear enough to show people riding it. Can't >image what else it could be. though. >On the right side of the print, in the middle distance, there is a >ferris-wheel like ride, and in the foreground something like a carriage body >on a swing. > >My source is Thomas M. Garrett's dissertation on pleasure gardens in NYC, up >to 1865, p. 229, footnote. > >As for the Hogarth print, I have that in a fine large page collection of his >etchings, published by Dover decades ago. >There is a hallucinatory element to the print, which probably affects the >representation of the flying horses. In particular, the ride is pretty high >above the heads of the people, and would have required a very tall ladder to >mount and dismount. Hard to suppose that a ride requiring that could be a >paying proposition. >Hogarth represents the horses as all facing outward, unlike modern >merry-go-rounds, but perhaps the point of the ride was not the sense of a >chase after the horse in front of you, but the view outward over the heads >on the crowd & seeing the whole fair. There's a ride at Coney Island right >now, one sort of like the revolving restaurants at the top of tall >buildings, but without the bad meals. A large round room is slowing raised >a hundred feet or so on a central column, rotated, and then lowered again. > The point is the view, not any sense of giddiness from speedy movement. > >In any event, it seems that flying horses (the thing) existed from the >early-mid 18th C, though the name is only found in the late 18th C. >This also raises the question -- "begs the question", in modern parlance -- >what was the Ferris wheel called, before Mr Ferris? > >Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late >1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? > >GAT > >On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > As Judith Anderson Stuart wrote [on another list], a 1721 print > > containing a carousel with what could be called "flying horses" (they > > are up in the air!) appears in the Wikipedia article "William Hogarth > > - The South Sea Scheme". I wonder how true it is to (amusement?) > > devices of the time. For example, I can't imagine it being > > comfortable for country fair patrons to mount. And it reminds me more > > of a device of torture (I assume that was intentional to > > Hogarth?). There was, of course, "riding the horse", "riding the rail". > > > > Several points interest me, assuming this carousel is to some degree > > true to life: > > 1) If I am seeing the Wikipedia image correctly, this "Wheel Ride" > > was turned by manpower via a bar extending through the axle on both sides > > 2) There are definitely horses being ridden ... although I'm not > > sure all the mounts are horses. > > 3) The horses are not on chains, so they do not "fly" out as the wheel > > turns. > > > > Joel > > > > At 8/12/2011 09:45 AM, John Dussinger wrote: > > > >> Postscript to my last: > >> > >> It just dawned on me (sorry Dawn!) that we can see these "flying > >> horses" in Hogarth's "South Sea" print of 1721. The caption on top > >> of the ride's post, "Who'l Ride," is similar to Lovelace's mimicry > >> of the hawkers at the fair: "Who rides next! Who rides next!" > >> Richardson may have had his friend's print in mind while > >> categorizing libertines as gamblers destructive of the state. I wish > >> that I could reproduce this print here. I have it hanging in my study. > >> > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 04:28:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 00:28:04 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132243.p7DLOfBN022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > IMHO _IMHO_ is the entire point of my post. How could it be otherwise? After all, "Winstons taste good, _as_ a cigarette should," if that's what the speaker, in _his_ opinion, considers to be "correct." "Different strokes for different folks.";-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Aug 14 08:07:54 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 09:07:54 +0100 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: George Thompson wrote > Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late > 1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? The earliest I have is this: 1931 Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisconsin) 3 Aug. "The current anonymous volume 'The Merry-Go-Round' ... pokes fun - not nice gentle fun - at our supposed mad round of reaching-for-the-brass-ring-existence." It's in my piece at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bra4.htm -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 10:15:41 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 06:15:41 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: <201108140808.p7DA05VZ022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > George Thompson wrote >> Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late >> 1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? Michael Quinion wrote > The earliest I have is this: > > 1931 Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisconsin) 3 Aug. "The current anonymous > volume 'The Merry-Go-Round' ... pokes fun - not nice gentle fun - at our > supposed mad round of reaching-for-the-brass-ring-existence." > > It's in my piece at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bra4.htm The act of obtaining a "brass ring" is used symbolically to refer to winning a political nomination in the New York Times in 1924. The article is titled "Thirty Dark Horses March on New York" and the accompanying illustration depicts several potential presidential nominees who will be attending the Democratic National Convention. The candidates are on a merry-go-round and a donkey figure is holding a shining ring labeled with the word NOMINATION. The caption asks WHO GETS THE BRASS RING? The illustration can be viewed by following the link below and downloading the PDF from the New York Times archive. Cite: 1924 June 15, New York Times, Thirty Dark Horses March On New York by Silas Bent, Page XX1, New York. (New York Times online archive; also ProQuest) http://goo.gl/RfJmf http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70E17FC3D5B12738DDDAC0994DE405B848EF1D3 Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 11:40:29 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:40:29 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108061958.p76AmUea001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting food for shots and suds!" The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not spontaneous. So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of the syntax. It's nightmarish. JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The biggest problem I have with the Churchill quote is that it's > too absurdly optimistic. If he'd said "may be" instead of "will be," I'd > have no problem. > > I'm sure the context of the remark would have modified the sense somewhat > too. > > Hirschbein also seems to believe that the phrase "balance of terror" was > turned into "mutually assured destruction" because "terror" required a > euphemism to keep the public behind it. > > Like > > 1. "mutually assured destruction" (aka "MAD") isn't almost equally scary. > > 2. the professional users of such terms are so easily distracted that they > can't remember what they're really talking about. (I'm sure there were > some > Strangelove types, of course.) > > 3. "MAD" ousted "balance of terror" from the strategic lexicon. > > Of course the Defense Department (formerly the War Department) is always on > the lookout, like everybody else, for attractive euphemisms. But > Hirschbein's article presents something like a strong Worf-Sapir > hypothesis, apparently calculated by madmen to fool themselves and everyone > else, that makes everything worse than it is already. > > To continue my rant: he also ridicules the proverb, "If you wish for > peace, > prepare for war," by suggesting its absolute interchangeability with "If > you > wish for war, prepare for war." > > It's great when you can sum up war, peace, diplomacy,and MAD in a couple of > easy-to-remember slogans. Saves brain work. > > JL > > > > JL > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 PM, victor steinbok >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: victor steinbok > > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > BTW, Hirschbein's "plain English" is no substitute for Churchill's > > original. He simply failed to understand the quote that he based his > > whole hyperventilating tirade on. In that context, what's a little > > perversion of a common idiom! > > > > VS-) > > > > On 8/6/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ... > > > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > > > > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy > > > of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, > [we] > > > have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, > and > > > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > > > > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence > > > is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and > > the > > > others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > > > increased_." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 11:57:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:57:34 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201107181841.p6IAkiqV005295@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But Jigs and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. (Verified on paper) [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The caption is given below.] "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on the stick with these real fat, real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. They're MOST! Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really made in the shade, and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" [The text above is corrected OCR but errors are difficult to avoid.] Cite: 1952 September 6, Collier's, [Cartoon by John Norment together with a short news item], Page 6, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. (Verified on paper) [Cartoon and caption are reprinted followed by a letter.] EDITOR: John Norment's recent Collier's cartoon of a bald-headed announcer reading a satirical radio commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes had radio station WKY, Oklahoma City, going round in circles. It started when WKY disk jockey Tom Paxton commented on the cartoon and read part of it on his show. The transmitter engineer, hearing a trade name, logged it as a commercial. The accounting department, on receipt of the log, tried to track down the "Hoffman" account so it could bill them. When no such account was located, Paxton was called on the carpet for giving an unauthorized commercial. He rescued himself by producing the cartoon. RAY SCALES, WKY & WKY-TV, Oklahoma City, Okla. Garson O'Toole wrote on July 18, 2011 >> I have extracted some more text from the Collier's in GB. Apparently, >> the word "nerd" appeared in an earlier issue of Collier's in a >> "cartoon of a bald-headed announcer reading a satirical radio >> commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes." ... Ben Zimmer wrote on July 18, 2011 > This is still chiefly relying on that Oct. 28, 1951 Newsweek article > on regional teen slang picked up by Reader's Digest and other > publications. Newsweek said that "frampton" was "Salt Lake's highest > accolade," while "nerd" was identified as Detroit slang. And > "pash-pie" is "a dream man or girl who is probably Most (sexy)" (in > Boston), so the Hoffman ad-writers seem to have misunderstood that > one. > > Newsweek had "fat" too: "Discussing cool and the degrees of coolness, > one boy reported: 'If you like a guy or gal, they're cool. If they are > real fat, real crazy, naturally they're real cool.'" I don't have my > slang dictionaries at hand, but I see Kipfer and Chapman cited this in > the entry for "fat" in their Dictionary of American Slang, and it also > shows up in OED's "cool" entry. > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 14:03:47 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:03:47 -0700 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141140.p7EB0krC031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting > food for shots and suds!" > > The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not > spontaneous. > > So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of > the syntax. It's nightmarish. this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: >we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); and much much more. oi. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 14:28:14 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:28:14 -0400 Subject: stealed Message-ID: A guest commentator on NPR just said thats omebody's complaining that Google has "stealed their search engine." This is the second time in recent weeks that I've heard someone with a college degree say "stealed" for "stolen" or perhaps even "stole." I'm pretty sure it wasn't the same guy. Be that as it may, neither had a foreign (of course I mean "international") accent. Memories decay, but I can't claim that I saw "stealed" more than once or twice in twenty-five years of university teaching. And I never heard anyone say it. But since unpleasant memories are less likely to decay, and words are my business, that's undoubtedly true. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 14 15:04:22 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:04:22 -0400 Subject: a blend for Jerry (and anyone else who collects them) Message-ID: at least I think it's likely to be a blend. My wife is a librarian and reports that when she turned over the stack of books a six-year-old girl was checking out to get to the barcode and passed them back to her that way, the girl objected: "I want them upside-side up!" (Presumably = "right-side-up" influenced by "upside-down".) Lots of hits on google, including "Upside Up Productions", although I can't remember ever hearing it in the wild. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 15:12:54 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:12:54 +0000 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Arnold Zwicky To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting > food for shots and suds!" > > The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not > spontaneous. > > So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of > the syntax. It's nightmarish. this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: >we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); and much much more. oi. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 14 15:14:23 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:14:23 -0400 Subject: stealed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 10:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > A guest commentator on NPR just said thats omebody's complaining that Google > has "stealed their search engine." > > This is the second time in recent weeks that I've heard someone with a > college degree say "stealed" for "stolen" or perhaps even "stole." > > I'm pretty sure it wasn't the same guy. Be that as it may, neither had a > foreign (of course I mean "international") accent. > > Memories decay, but I can't claim that I saw "stealed" more than once or > twice in twenty-five years of university teaching. And I never heard anyone > say it. > Maybe it's from people hearing and misinterpreting "He steeled himself for the verdict" and such? (Only half-joking.) But I guess paradigm regularization has to start with someone and maybe these folks are saying, as in the folksong, "Let it begin with me" (although the reference there was to peace on earth rather than paradigm leveling). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 15:29:28 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:29:28 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141513.p7EB0kuO031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution reversal is inflated? I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a difference. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ron Butters > Subject: Re: More on substituting > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Arnold Zwicky > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting >> food for shots and suds!" >> >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not >> spontaneous. >> >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); > > and much much more. oi. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 15:31:45 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:31:45 +0000 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: I doubt that most people do even noticed. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Dan Goncharoff To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 11:29:28 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution reversal is inflated? I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a difference. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ron Butters > Subject: Re: More on substituting > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Arnold Zwicky > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting >> food for shots and suds!" >> >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not >> spontaneous. >> >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); > > and much much more. oi. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Aug 14 15:26:10 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:26:10 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201108141157.p7EAlUb9026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the > word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary > items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I > also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared > with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. > > Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John > Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But > Jigs and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. > (Verified on paper) > > [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of > typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. > Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The > caption is given below.] > > "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on > the stick with these real fat, real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't > be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about > Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. > They're MOST! Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big > tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really made in the > shade, and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a > Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has > it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is > reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd > ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" [...] Thanks to Garson for tracking this down. For anyone keeping score, here are the earliest known examples of "nerd" (disregarding Dr. Seuss's use of the word in "If I Ran the Zoo," which appeared in shortened form in _Redbook_ in July 1950 before being published in book form later that year). Items in _The Age_, _Reader's Digest_, and _Collier's_ all draw their teen slang terms directly from _Newsweek_, while the _Herald-Press_ article is a bit more wide-ranging: --- 1951 _Newsweek_ 8 Oct. 28 In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve. 1951 _The Age_ (Melbourne, Australia) 11 Oct. 4 ("U.S. Teen-agers Talk a 'Cool, Shafty' Language") Teenagers in New York, Chicago, New Orleans and Los Angeles who resort to such passe expressions are mere peasants or "nerds.”... Such lowly "nerds" in other cities may on occasion be hailed by acquaintances, with, "Hey, nosebleed." http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=k8dVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IcQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5372,4309418 1952 _Reader’s Digest_ Jan. 57 In Detroit, someone who once would have been called a drip or a square is now a nerd, or in a less severe case a scurve. 1952 _Collier’s_ 2 Feb. 39 (cartoon by John Norment, featuring radio DJ reading a fictitious ad for "Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes") Don't be a party-pooper or a nerd. 1952 _Herald-Press_ (St. Joseph, Mich.) 23 June 14 (“To 'Clue Ya' To Be 'George' And Not A 'Nerd' Or 'Scurve'”) If the patois throws you, you're definitely not in the know, because anyone who is not a nerd (drip) knows that the bug is the family car. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 16:03:39 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:03:39 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108131604.p7CMKcsf022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Likely the best-known example of overtone singing is the Gyuto Order of Tibetan Tantric monks whose "music" has been marketed by Mickey Hart. Wiki also mentions that the style is identified as "chordal chanting". "Chordal" is in the OED, but no mention is made of chanting, which is quite different from the other "chordal" references (string instruments). The OED entry for "overtone singing" (which also subsumes "overtone chant" and "overtone chanting") has a slight geographic overstatement: "traditional esp. in Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia" That's like saying, "India, Indonesia and adjacent parts of Southeast Asia" or "Norway, Italy and adjacent parts of Western Europe". At issue may be the distinction between two traditional designations. The Soviet and post-Soviet political designation only ascribes to Central Asia the former Soviet "-stans"--Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. The broader UNESCO definition includes northern parts of Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, a small bit of India (Kashmir), the Sub-Ural part of Russia (literally adjacent to Kazakhstan, running down along the Chinese border, south of Taiga), Mongolia and a rather substantial part of Western and Central China, including Tibet. Tibet (and Kashmir, I suppose) is the only one of these that stands out as the location of a very distant culture and group of languages, compared to all the others (although there is a mix of Muslims, Buddhists and "animists" among the rest). Whatever the case, Mongolia covers the Northeast of the UNESCO-defined region and Tibet the Southeast, they are not adjacent to each other, making the adjacency claim very odd, from my perspective. By UN definition, which follows largely the Soviet division, they are not even a part of Central Asia at all. And, to make matters worse, the practice of overtone singing stretches almost continuously across nearly the entire Asian part of Russia, across the Behring Straights into Alaska and Canada. So, the OED definition is both overstating and understating the conditions. VS-) On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Mongolian throat singing is in the news. = > ( > http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=3Dstory&id=3D2015= > 896486&) > > The OED has it as an alternative under the entry for "overtone singing," = > which seems to be the more general term, but you have to do an advanced = > search to find it. > > Inuit throat singing = > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_throat_singing), a different sort of = > singing is not in the OED. > > FWIW, according to "Throat Singing" on the Altaic Wiki = > (http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Throat+Singing), throat singing is = > practiced in eight different Altatic cultures. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 16:05:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:05:08 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141529.p7EAlUrM024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dan, I could not have said it better. JL On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > reversal is inflated? > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > difference. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Ron Butters > > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares > and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly > stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > > > ------Original Message------ > > From: Arnold Zwicky > > To: > > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > > > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, > substituting > >> food for shots and suds!" > >> > >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and > not > >> spontaneous. > >> > >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" > of > >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD > "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is > no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > > > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times > since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so > it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, > how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how > you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often > you rant about them.)< > > > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of > a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is > already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the > variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think > that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, > they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make > it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to > dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on > seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the > party"); > > > > and much much more. oi. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 16:45:41 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 16:45:41 +0000 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: Well, the reversal does not "completely miss communicate information." It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting Dan, I could not have said it better. JL On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > reversal is inflated? > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > difference. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Ron Butters > > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares > and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly > stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > > > ------Original Message------ > > From: Arnold Zwicky > > To: > > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > > > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, > substituting > >> food for shots and suds!" > >> > >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and > not > >> spontaneous. > >> > >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" > of > >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD > "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is > no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > > > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times > since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so > it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, > how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how > you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often > you rant about them.)< > > > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of > a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is > already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the > variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think > that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, > they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make > it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to > dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on > seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the > party"); > > > > and much much more. oi. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 17:22:33 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:22:33 -0700 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141645.p7EB0kx8031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > Well, the reversal does not [completely miscommunicate information]. It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. what we're confronting here is a phenomenon i've called (on Language Log) "intransigence". Goncharoff and Lighter have their own variety of English, in which reversed "substitute" has no place. so they're insisting on understanding other people's varieties in terms of their own, disregarding other people's clear intent -- essentially, intransigently *refusing* to understand. (this is uncooperative and inconsiderate as well as silly -- especially silly when the usage seems to be spreading fast in the U.S., in contexts well beyond its original British sporting context.) (i don't *use* reversed "substitute" myself, but, like any reasonably cooperative person, i've figured out how to understand it.) The Goncharoff-Lighter (and, earlier, Berson) objection to reversed "substitute" is the same as the objection to "double negation" as involving people's saying the opposite of what they mean, which mavkes it look like willful pig-ignorance. > > ------Original Message------ > From: Jonathan Lighter > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > Dan, I could not have said it better. > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: More on substituting >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution >> reversal is inflated? >> >> I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing >> process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it >> completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about >> any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a >> difference. potential ambiguity is part of what you're complaining about -- the very complaint leveled against some of the items on my list (most famously, "literally" and "hopefully"). (some of the others are labeled pleonastic. but the peeve literature labels all of them as simply ungrammatical, and some writers then go on to say that that makes them incomprehensible.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 17:27:49 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:27:49 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141645.p7EAlUwO024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There appear to be multiple levels of miscommunication in the latest development on this thread. JL noted a reversal that upsets him because he thinks it fails to communicate the desired meaning--in fact, in standard interpretation, it says the opposite (hence, reversal). AZ is annoyed (mildly?) at the repetition of people expressing pet peeves about subjects that have been previously covered and rehashed (in this case, anywhere from 4 to 6 years ago). DG comes up suggesting that this is not simply a complaint about usage--that would indeed be quite ordinary--but about the non-standard usage that's seeped into formally edited materials, i.e., it has been tacitly accepted as standard. Thus the observation is not of new usage but of a new level of spread. Some may find this to be a more significant fact that others. Feel free to correct my observation above if I got any part of it wrong. However, RB goes beyond annoyance and throws insults embedded into a one-liner--a practice that he normally condemns. There is a difference about asking to avoid repetitions and referring to someone as an "alleged linguist"--a difference that a linguist should be able to appreciate. What may come through as annoyance or dissatisfaction in a longer email becomes amplified in a short message sent from a "smart" phone. This technology appears to have made it easier for people to become thoughtless, clumsy and offensive. If a suggestion to avoid one-liners on the list is reasonable (and I am certainly guilty of my share of one-liners), doing so on a phone should be doubly so--the standard mental filters often fail because the response time is shortened significantly. So, my recommendation to Ron--and others--is to avoid sending quick responses via smart phones unless they are directly on-topic (DG's message was constructive, in contrast). It will help to tone down overheated rhetoric and certainly will not detract from the flow of the discussion. VS-) PS: I am not a linguist and don't allege to be one, thus the comment would not be insulting if it were addressed to me--it would not apply at all. However, it was /not/ addressed to me. And, I believe, that comment was uncalled for. [RB: Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems *particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist*.] <-- Emphasis added. PPS: One other practice that RB has objected to in the past--in association with all the other complaints--was someone supporting a comment made earlier (presumably without any actual supporting evidence, just an expression of raw opinion). The comment quoted above falls into this category as well--in other words, RB has violated not one, but at least three principle he has previously espoused. On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Ron Butters wrote: Well, the reversal does not "completely miss communicate information." It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting Dan, I could not have said it better. JL On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > reversal is inflated? > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > difference. > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 17:39:54 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:39:54 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201108141157.p7EAlUb9026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Garson O'Toole > Subject: � � � Re: "nerd" etymythology > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the > word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary > items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I > also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared > with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. > > Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John > Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But > Jig[g]s and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. > (Verified on paper) > > [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of > typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. > Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The > caption is given below.] > > "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on > the stick with these real _fat_ _P.H.A.T.T._ is still being misspelled, I see. A WAG: _fat_ was given an artificial reanalysis in order to prevent its sounding like an insult, when it was applied to girls. real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't > be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about > Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. > They're _MOST_ And not "_the_ MOST"? > Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big > tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really _made in the shade_ An unusual use, IME. > and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a > Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has > it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is > reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd > ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" > > [The text above is corrected OCR but errors are difficult to avoid.] > > > Cite: 1952 September 6, Collier's, [Cartoon by John Norment together > with a short news item], Page 6, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. (Verified on > paper) > > [Cartoon and caption are reprinted followed by a letter.] > > EDITOR: John Norment's recent Collier's cartoon of a bald-headed > announcer reading a satirical radio commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age > Clothes had radio station WKY, Oklahoma City, going round in circles. > > It started when WKY disk jockey Tom Paxton commented on the cartoon > and read part of it on his show. The transmitter engineer, hearing a > trade name, logged it as a commercial. The accounting department, on > receipt of the log, tried to track down the "Hoffman" account so it > could bill them. When no such account was located, Paxton was called > on the carpet for giving an unauthorized commercial. > > He rescued himself by producing the cartoon. > > RAY SCALES, WKY & WKY-TV, Oklahoma City, Okla. > > > Garson O'Toole wrote on July 18, 2011 >>> I have extracted some more text from the Collier's in GB. Apparently, >>> the word "nerd" appeared in an earlier issue of Collier's in a >>> "cartoon of a bald-headed announcer reading a satirical radio >>> commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes." > ... > > Ben Zimmer wrote on July 18, 2011 >> This is still chiefly relying on that Oct. 28, 1951 Newsweek article >> on regional teen slang picked up by Reader's Digest and other >> publications. Newsweek said that "frampton" was "Salt Lake's highest >> accolade," while "nerd" was identified as Detroit slang. And >> "pash-pie" is "a dream man or girl who is probably Most (sexy)" (in >> Boston), so the Hoffman ad-writers seem to have misunderstood that >> one. >> >> Newsweek had "fat" too: "Discussing cool and the degrees of coolness, >> one boy reported: 'If you like a guy or gal, they're cool. If they are >> real fat, real crazy, naturally they're real cool.'" I don't have my >> slang dictionaries at hand, but I see Kipfer and Chapman cited this in >> the entry for "fat" in their Dictionary of American Slang, and it also >> shows up in OED's "cool" entry. >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 17:52:18 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:52:18 -0400 Subject: Tomming Message-ID: For once, I want to mention something that IS in the OED: Tom v.: [1963-1976] > 2. intr. [ < Tom n.1 1f] To behave in an ingratiating and servile way to > someone of another (esp. white) race. Also to tom it (up) . U.S. slang. > The reason I wanted to mention it is because of a passage in a blog post earlier in the week: http://prospect.org/csnc/blogs/adam_serwer_archive?month=08&year=2011&base_name=not_tomming Being black and criticizing Obama is not inherently "tomming," any more than > it is to support the president despite his failures. Tomming involves > deliberately advancing the arguments of the community's dectractors [sic] in > a bid for approval, it doesn't apply to people who, whatever you think of > the merits of their argument, ultimately have the best interests of the > community in mind. This kind of thing weakens the merits of one's argument, > it doesn't make it stronger. > Do we now need an entry for "tomming"? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 17:54:26 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:54:26 -0700 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141727.p7EAlU1A024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 10:27 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > There appear to be multiple levels of miscommunication in the latest > development on this thread. JL noted a reversal that upsets him because he > thinks it fails to communicate the desired meaning--in fact, in standard > interpretation, it says the opposite (hence, reversal). AZ is annoyed > (mildly?) at the repetition of people expressing pet peeves about subjects > that have been previously covered and rehashed (in this case, anywhere from > 4 to 6 years ago). i am annoyed (significantly) at several levels. getting pet peeves about subjects that have been repeatedly covered here is the least of it. worse is getting them again and again from the same people on the same subject, as if each fresh example the writers come across is a fresh insult to them. much worse is the basis for the complaint -- that people are "saying the opposite of what they mean"; that was the main point in my posting before this one. finally, it's hugely annoying that people on this list, who should know better, toss off such complaints. > DG comes up suggesting that this is not simply a > complaint about usage--that would indeed be quite ordinary--but about the > non-standard usage that's seeped into formally edited materials, i.e., it > has been tacitly accepted as standard. Thus the observation is not of new > usage but of a new level of spread. Some may find this to be a more > significant fact that others. reversed "substitute" seems to be getting to the point that intensifying "literally" and speaker-oriented "hopefully" got to some time ago, when they began appearing in edited text. the outcry gets serious at that point -- and the outcry rarely has any impact (these two are now standard variants). but it's a sign of change in progress. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 18:07:08 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:07:08 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141754.p7EB0k1e031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ... > reversed "substitute" seems to be getting to the point that intensifying > "literally" and speaker-oriented "hopefully" got to some time ago, when they > began appearing in edited text. the outcry gets serious at that point -- > and the outcry rarely has any impact (these two are now standard variants). > but it's a sign of change in progress. > > arnold > We always notice, of course, the cases where such complaints had no long-term effect. Are there any that might have had an effect? Or is it a guarantee that once a "undesirable" (by the "elites") expression enters colloquially, it will soon become standard? Final point--complaining about people expressing language-related pet-peeves is about as likely to succeed as those peeved complaints themselves. I doubt it's a worthwhile cause for a prolonged battle--at least, in this venue. Even if you think that those who are peeved should know better. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 18:30:57 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:30:57 -0700 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131801.p7DA05IB022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Here is a citation in 1934 (probably) that may help to illuminate the > genesis of the expression by providing a use of the phrase and the > stylized gesture in a play. > > Title: Escape me never!: A play in three acts > Author: Margaret Kennedy > Publisher: W. Heinemann, ltd. > Date: 1934 > (Google Books snippet view; Not verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) > > [Extracted text from GB] > The Butler enters, much dishevelled. > Butler If you will excuse, my lady, there has been a thief. > Lady M. [clutching her pearls] Good heavens! > Butler A strange girl has been found in the Signorina's room. > Sir Ivor A strange girl? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=+dishevelled#search_anchor > http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=clutching#search_anchor > > The same author a few years earlier in 1930 (probably) used the same > scene. The 1934 (probably) play may be some kind of rewrite... lovely. though i'm not sure if this should count as two occurrences rather than one. but we've got a stage use for horror, surprise, or distress: dramatic, extravagant, histronic -- and feminine. that would get us to extravagant gay male uses, playing with gender roles. in any case: U.S. black usage, British and Canadian white usage. i'll ask around on the lgbt Facebook group for other usage. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 14 21:29:26 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:29:26 -0700 Subject: Lionized Message-ID: As expected, the recent release of Lion, the new Mac OS, has resulted in a slew of uses of "lionization." What will be interesting is if the word catches on in regular parlance or undergoes a shift in meaning. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 21:39:06 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 17:39:06 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just to set the record straight: 1. I have never objected to one-liners. I have objected to one-liners that are devoid of content, merely phatic, and contribute nothing to the topic. 2. My purpose was not so much to complain about repetition (though I agree with Arnold) as to condemn the mindless, and linguistically ridiculous, practice of bemoaning solecisms, slips of the tongue and pen, and changes in the language--especially when one does so in the inflated language of anguish and "nightmare." 3. I don't remember ever announcing a "principle" that holds that every opinion must be substantiated with "actual supporting evidence," and I'm not sure what sort of "supporting evidence" is needed to document that hand-wringing (and perhaps pearl-clutching as well) about usage is not in accord with accepted scientific principles. I would like to add, though, that it does not seem at all clear that the "substitution reversal" in the passage that JL cited represents a belief on the part of people at Fox News that "substitute" functions syntactically like "replace." The reversal is very much in the manner of a slip of the tongue, and (as I noted earlier) there is no reason to believe that hearers would not pretty much subconsciously interpret the utterance in the sense that was intended, rather than the nonsensical reading that gives JL nightmares. Maybe the alternative is worth some consideration, though I imagine that Arnold has given it some thought. On Aug 14, 2011, at 1:26 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > There appear to be multiple levels of miscommunication in the latest development on this thread. JL noted a reversal that upsets him because he thinks it fails to communicate the desired meaning--in fact, in standard interpretation, it says the opposite (hence, reversal). AZ is annoyed (mildly?) at the repetition of people expressing pet peeves about subjects that have been previously covered and rehashed (in this case, anywhere from 4 to 6 years ago). DG comes up suggesting that this is not simply a complaint about usage--that would indeed be quite ordinary--but about the non-standard usage that's seeped into formally edited materials, i.e., it has been tacitly accepted as standard. Thus the observation is not of new usage but of a new level of spread. Some may find this to be a more significant fact that others. > > Feel free to correct my observation above if I got any part of it wrong. > > However, RB goes beyond annoyance and throws insults embedded into a one-liner--a practice that he normally condemns. There is a difference about asking to avoid repetitions and referring to someone as an "alleged linguist"--a difference that a linguist should be able to appreciate. What may come through as annoyance or dissatisfaction in a longer email becomes amplified in a short message sent from a "smart" phone. This technology appears to have made it easier for people to become thoughtless, clumsy and offensive. If a suggestion to avoid one-liners on the list is reasonable (and I am certainly guilty of my share of one-liners), doing so on a phone should be doubly so--the standard mental filters often fail because the response time is shortened significantly. So, my recommendation to Ron--and others--is to avoid sending quick responses via smart phones unless they are directly on-topic (DG's message was constructive, in contrast). It will help to tone down overheated rhetoric and certainly will not detract from the flow of the discussion. > > VS-) > > PS: I am not a linguist and don't allege to be one, thus the comment would not be insulting if it were addressed to me--it would not apply at all. However, it was /not/ addressed to me. And, I believe, that comment was uncalled for. > > [RB: Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems *particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist*.] <-- Emphasis added. > > PPS: One other practice that RB has objected to in the past--in association with all the other complaints--was someone supporting a comment made earlier (presumably without any actual supporting evidence, just an expression of raw opinion). The comment quoted above falls into this category as well--in other words, RB has violated not one, but at least three principle he has previously espoused. > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > > Well, the reversal does not "completely miss communicate information." It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Jonathan Lighter > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > Dan, I could not have said it better. > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > > reversal is inflated? > > > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > > difference. > > > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 22:48:40 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:48:40 -0400 Subject: stiff, adv. (antedating) Message-ID: OED has "scared stiff" as the earliest such collocation (1905). 1878 _Daily Constitution_ (Atlanta) (Dec. 29) (unp.) (NewspaperArchive): Then Henry ripped out a signal of distress that scared the baby stiff as a telegraph pole. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 00:33:04 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:33:04 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too can understand reversed substitute where the reversal and intended meaning are obvious. But a reversed substitute in a mathematical or computer programming context can lead to deaths. Joel At 8/14/2011 01:22 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > > > Well, the reversal does not [completely miscommunicate > information]. It takes next to no thought whatever to understand > the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if > there were editors) did not notice the reversal. > >what we're confronting here is a phenomenon i've called (on Language >Log) "intransigence". Goncharoff and Lighter have their own variety >of English, in which reversed "substitute" has no place. so they're >insisting on understanding other people's varieties in terms of >their own, disregarding other people's clear intent -- essentially, >intransigently *refusing* to understand. (this is uncooperative and >inconsiderate as well as silly -- especially silly when the usage >seems to be spreading fast in the U.S., in contexts well beyond its >original British sporting context.) > >(i don't *use* reversed "substitute" myself, but, like any >reasonably cooperative person, i've figured out how to understand it.) > >The Goncharoff-Lighter (and, earlier, Berson) objection to reversed >"substitute" is the same as the objection to "double negation" as >involving people's saying the opposite of what they mean, which >mavkes it look like willful pig-ignorance. > > > > > ------Original Message------ > > From: Jonathan Lighter > > To: > > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > > > Dan, I could not have said it better. > > > > JL > > > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff > >> Subject: Re: More on substituting > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > >> reversal is inflated? > >> > >> I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > >> process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > >> completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > >> any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > >> difference. > >potential ambiguity is part of what you're complaining about -- the >very complaint leveled against some of the items on my list (most >famously, "literally" and "hopefully"). > >(some of the others are labeled pleonastic. but the peeve >literature labels all of them as simply ungrammatical, and some >writers then go on to say that that makes them incomprehensible.) > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 01:08:12 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 21:08:12 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108150033.p7EB0kBs031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Goncharoff and Lighter have their own variety >>of English, in which reversed "substitute" has no place. � so they're >>insisting on understanding other people's varieties in terms of >>their own, disregarding other people's clear intent -- essentially, >>intransigently *refusing* to understand. (this is uncooperative and >>inconsiderate as well as silly -- especially silly when the usage >>seems to be spreading fast in the U.S., in contexts well beyond its >>original British sporting context.) Be that as it may, I agree with Goncharoff and Lighter. If that usage is spreading, then that's too bad for us. IAC, as the Russians say, "Privychka svyshe nam dana." We don't have to like it, but, as is the case with any other trivial-but-sucking aspect of life, we'll have to deal. Nevertheless, WTF is wrong with substituting "May I ask you a question?" for "I have a question" ? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 02:19:09 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:19:09 -0700 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108141603.p7EAlUuW024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva Republic Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia Nanai people: Russia, China I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but their geographic description sounds reasonable to me. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:03 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > The OED entry for "overtone singing" (which also subsumes "overtone chant" > and "overtone chanting") has a slight geographic overstatement: > > "traditional esp. in Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia" > > That's like saying, "India, Indonesia and adjacent parts of Southeast Asia" > or "Norway, Italy and adjacent parts of Western Europe". At issue may be the > distinction between two traditional designations. The Soviet and post-Soviet > political designation only ascribes to Central Asia the former Soviet > "-stans"--Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. > The broader UNESCO definition includes northern parts of Afghanistan, Iran, > Pakistan, a small bit of India (Kashmir), the Sub-Ural part of Russia > (literally adjacent to Kazakhstan, running down along the Chinese border, > south of Taiga), Mongolia and a rather substantial part of Western and > Central China, including Tibet. Tibet (and Kashmir, I suppose) is the only > one of these that stands out as the location of a very distant culture and > group of languages, compared to all the others (although there is a mix of > Muslims, Buddhists and "animists" among the rest). Whatever the case, > Mongolia covers the Northeast of the UNESCO-defined region and Tibet the > Southeast, they are not adjacent to each other, making the adjacency claim > very odd, from my perspective. By UN definition, which follows largely the > Soviet division, they are not even a part of Central Asia at all. And, to > make matters worse, the practice of overtone singing stretches almost > continuously across nearly the entire Asian part of Russia, across the > Behring Straights into Alaska and Canada. So, the OED definition is both > overstating and understating the conditions. > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> Mongolian throat singing is in the news. = >> ( >> http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=3Dstory&id=3D2015= >> 896486&) >> >> The OED has it as an alternative under the entry for "overtone singing," = >> which seems to be the more general term, but you have to do an advanced = >> search to find it. >> >> Inuit throat singing = >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_throat_singing), a different sort of = >> singing is not in the OED. >> >> FWIW, according to "Throat Singing" on the Altaic Wiki = >> (http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Throat+Singing), throat singing is = >> practiced in eight different Altatic cultures. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 02:40:24 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:40:24 -0700 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) Message-ID: I don't see tsuyu in the OED. "Soup" seems to be a common way to referring to this. I think that's what the waiter in the pseudo-Japanese restaurant responded with when I asked for tsuyu and he didn't know the word. 1. The earliest I see on Google Books for "tsuyu" as dipping broth is 1914, though the authors seem to confuse tsuyu (つゆ or 汁) "broth, dipping broth" and tsuyu "dew" (露). The world's story: a history of the world in story, song and art, ed. by Eva March Tappan (Google eBook)) (http://ow.ly/63121) Karl Julius Ploetz, Horatio Willis Dresser Houghton Mifflin company ----- Then comes the first "honorable" table, a small lacquered tray with lacquered blows upon it, containing a covered basin of tsuyu-soup--the "honorable dew"--a little pot of soy, a gilded platter with various sweet and aromatic condiments upon it, and some wonderful vegetables, environing some fairy cutlets of salmon. ----- 2. The next occurrence jumps to 1964: The East, Volumes 1-3, East Publications, Inc., page 38 (http://ow.ly/630VM) ----- _Udon_ and _soba_ can be bought in most food stores in Japan, so one need only know how to prepare the soup, or _tsuyu_: Dried bonito flakes... ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 02:59:52 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:59:52 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150219.p7EB0kEG031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's quite obvious that the Altaic-wiki includes neither Inuit nor Tibetan overtone chant/singing--an exclusion that may well be acceptable for a site dedicated to Altaic issues, but not for overtone singing in general. Both Tibetan and Inuit distributions are significant and the OED entry was for "overtone singing", not "throat singing". That's the incomplete part. On the other hand, I find it somewhat difficult to see something that is adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet, since they are not exactly next to each other. Mongolia is north of Central China and Tibet is southwest of China (mostly--parts of former Tibet region are absorbed in southern Chinese provinces). The only region that's adjacent to both is Xinjiang (on opposite ends) and if Uighurs don't practice overtone singing, then the OED definition is just wrong, not merely incomplete or questionable (although there are more than just Uighurs in Xinjiang--Kazakhs dominate the northern region). The rest of the overtone-singing region may be vaguely adjacent to Mongolia (in a somewhat odd sort of way--minus the Inuit), but certainly not to Tibet. VS-) On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat > singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: > > Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China > Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva Republic > Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai > Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China > Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia > Nanai people: Russia, China > > I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but their > geographic description sounds reasonable to me. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 03:02:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 23:02:48 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051536.p75AlXUs008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Going in the other direction, in the just finished (season-final) episode of Leverage (TNT), the final scene included a comment about "friends with bennies". Thought I should mention it in this context. VS-) On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > >> > > >> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > > >> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > > >> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > > >> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > > >> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > > >> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > > >> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > >> > > >> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an > > >> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > > >> of a catch), with a lot to offer. > > >> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > > >> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > > >> and summer ... I realized I was missing the > > >> special guy to share the good times with. You > > >> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > > > > > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > > > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > > > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > > > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > > > occasion. > > > > > That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A > > speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of > > euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". > > That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the > Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 > mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. > Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a > personal ad from 11/28/96: > > http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de > > Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 03:13:31 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:13:31 -0700 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150300.p7EAlUYs024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it a different type of singing? Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 14, 2011, at 7:59 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > It's quite obvious that the Altaic-wiki includes neither Inuit nor Tibetan > overtone chant/singing--an exclusion that may well be acceptable for a site > dedicated to Altaic issues, but not for overtone singing in general. Both > Tibetan and Inuit distributions are significant and the OED entry was for > "overtone singing", not "throat singing". That's the incomplete part. On the > other hand, I find it somewhat difficult to see something that is adjacent > to Mongolia and Tibet, since they are not exactly next to each other. > Mongolia is north of Central China and Tibet is southwest of China > (mostly--parts of former Tibet region are absorbed in southern Chinese > provinces). The only region that's adjacent to both is Xinjiang (on opposite > ends) and if Uighurs don't practice overtone singing, then the OED > definition is just wrong, not merely incomplete or questionable (although > there are more than just Uighurs in Xinjiang--Kazakhs dominate the northern > region). The rest of the overtone-singing region may be vaguely adjacent to > Mongolia (in a somewhat odd sort of way--minus the Inuit), but certainly not > to Tibet. > > VS-) > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat >> singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: >> >> Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China >> Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva Republic >> Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai >> Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China >> Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia >> Nanai people: Russia, China >> >> I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but their >> geographic description sounds reasonable to me. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 03:21:52 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 23:21:52 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150313.p7EAlU8D026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I suppose, it's a fair interpretation. I am more familiar with Tibetan "tantric chant" and with Inuit "duets" than with Altaic "throat singing". What I heard of Tuva "singing", it is similar to Tibetan, except it's done by individuals (males). But I don't have a full picture of Altaic throat singing, so I can't comment on significant differences. Wiki on Inuit singing makes it clear that female duos are unusual compared to Altaic types, but it does not make it clear what the differences are--well, other than it's not women and not two people. So I'll plead ignorance. VS-) On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in > Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." > > So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in > Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." > > Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan > is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an > update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. > Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it > a different type of singing? > > Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 03:28:09 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:28:09 -0700 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150322.p7EAlU8d026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, you know a lot more about it than me, then! Anyway, this additional comment makes it clearer how distinctions should be made. BB On Aug 14, 2011, at 8:21 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I suppose, it's a fair interpretation. I am more familiar with Tibetan > "tantric chant" and with Inuit "duets" than with Altaic "throat singing". > What I heard of Tuva "singing", it is similar to Tibetan, except it's done > by individuals (males). But I don't have a full picture of Altaic throat > singing, so I can't comment on significant differences. Wiki on Inuit > singing makes it clear that female duos are unusual compared to Altaic > types, but it does not make it clear what the differences are--well, other > than it's not women and not two people. So I'll plead ignorance. > > VS-) > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in >> Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." >> >> So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in >> Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." >> >> Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan >> is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an >> update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. >> Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it >> a different type of singing? >> >> Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 04:15:18 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 00:15:18 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Going in the other direction, in the just finished (season-final) episode of > Leverage (TNT), the final scene included a comment about "friends with > bennies". Thought I should mention it in this context. > > VS-) More new data: On an Air France flight to Paris (on my way to Ljubljana) a few days ago, I learned from the in-flight entertainment system that one of the alternate expressions we were discussing earlier, "sex friends", is actually French for "friends with benefits", or more accurately for "No Strings Attached", the Hollywood romcom starring Ashton Kutcher and Natalie Portman as attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex with each other while avoiding becoming romantically involved, not to be confused with "Friends With Benefits", he Hollywood romcom starring Justin Timberlake and Mila Kunis as attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex with each other while avoiding becoming romantically involved. The only question is what the French for "Friends With Benefits" will turn out to be, now that "Sex Friends" is taken. LH > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > >> >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to >>>>> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with >>>>> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at >>>>> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of >>>>> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be >>>>> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. >>>>> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): >>>>> >>>>> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an >>>>> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell >>>>> of a catch), with a lot to offer. >>>>> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in >>>>> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring >>>>> and summer ... I realized I was missing the >>>>> special guy to share the good times with. You >>>>> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... >>>> >>>> But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >>>> partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >>>> advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >>>> a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >>>> occasion. >>>> >>> That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A >>> speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of >>> euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". >> >> That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the >> Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 >> mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. >> Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a >> personal ad from 11/28/96: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de >> >> Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 04:29:56 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 00:29:56 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108150415.p7EB0kK6031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to IMDB, Friends with Benefits is "Sexe entre amis". The Russian title translates "Sex in friendship" (the same "in" as in "We come in peace", not "in the box"). No Strings Attached supposedly had working titles "Fuckbuddies" and ... "Friends with Benefits". The French title was indeed the English "Sex Friends" (not translation). Russian title was "More than Sex" (translation), Bulgarian "Simply Sex" (translation). VS-) On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > More new data: > On an Air France flight to Paris (on my way to Ljubljana) a few days ago, I > learned from the in-flight entertainment system that one of the alternate > expressions we were discussing earlier, "sex friends", is actually French > for "friends with benefits", or more accurately for "No Strings Attached", > the Hollywood romcom starring Ashton Kutcher and Natalie Portman as > attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex with each > other while avoiding becoming romantically involved, not to be confused with > "Friends With Benefits", he Hollywood romcom starring Justin Timberlake and > Mila Kunis as attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex > with each other while avoiding becoming romantically involved. The only > question is what the French for "Friends With Benefits" will turn out to be, > now that "Sex Friends" is taken. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 05:23:21 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:23:21 -0400 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150240.p7EAlU6n026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe, I found an earlier version of the same story--1891. And it may not be the earliest, as the subtitle suggests that the stories were culled from a journal published in the Daily Telegraph, although the dates are not specified. In fact, "tsuyu" is mentioned twice, although the first one does not appear to be integrated (but does explain the confusion in the second). http://goo.gl/Fmv4y Seas and lands. By Sir Edwin Arnold. NY: Longmans, 1891 [Reprinted by Permission of the Proprietors of the "Daily Telegraph" From Letters Published Under the Title "By Sea and Land" in That Journal.] Chapter 14. Rural Japan. p. 190-1 > First appears a small square table about eight inches high, upon which are > placed fresh cups and chopsticks *(hashi), *the latter being cut from > white wood, the two sticks still joined at the end, so that you may know > they are fresh and unused. You separate them as a hungry man takes up his > knife and fork, and are then ready for the "honourable tray " of red or > black lacquer, which is slid within your reach by the kneeling and bowing > *musume. *On each of our trays was a little bowl of soup with shreds of > vegetables, a saucer of pickled celery and radish--*tsukemono*--a minute > slab of boiled trout, another saucer holding shreds of cold chicken, and a > wooden bowl with a rather doubtful composition of some sort of whey and > white of egg. Between the trays a large wooden tub of hot boiled rice, > admirably dressed, was set, with a fresh pot of tea. A plate of cakes--* > kashi*--also appeared, and when we had asked for and obtained salt and > bread $B!= (Barticles apparently not usually furnished--there was quite enough to > eat, and of no bad quality. The little glossy-haired *musume *kneels all > the time before the guest, softly murmuring as she re-fills your plate or > cup, "*Mo sukoshi nasai*"--" Condescend to take a little more!"--and it is > part of the refined politeness of this nation that they call hot water, tea, > and soup, by complimentary terms, as "*O yu," " *The honourable > hot-water;" "*0 cha," "*The honourable tea;" " *0 **tsuyu," **" *The > honourable refreshing dew--of soup." The hot white rice, decorously poked > into the mouth with the chopsticks from the edge of the laquered basin, is > the real mainstay of the meal, which, being removed, the tobacco-box and > small bamboo pipes succeed. The second citation matches the 1914 one: Chapter 17. A Japanese Dinner. p. 232 [See original quotation.] Amazingly enough, OED has an earlier mention of "tsukemono" (1885). The rest of the Japanese terms are not found in the OED. The same text is reprinted in 1899 ( http://goo.gl/gu5Jt ). The 1872 Japanese-Engish dictionary in GB gives several representations for three "tsuyu" words--rainy season, dew and broth/soup. But the first pair of characters you list for broth appears in all three. http://goo.gl/Ovl0p p. 571 On the other hand, this dictionary cannot be used for antedating because "tsuyu" appears only in Japanese phrases in it. What's interesting about it is that there are a number of semi-integrated sources (that is, those that cite both the Japanese word and the translation, but as a part of a running text), in addition to a number of transliterations of Japanese text. But virtually all of the ones prior to 1920 refer to either "dew" or "rainy season" (mid-June to early July, not the one in September--others suggest that /all/ rainy seasons are identified as "tsuyu"). Some mention various combinations, such as pottery called "Shira-tsuyu" (white dew) and the phrase "asa-tsuyu" (morning dew or "something transient"). The rest are actually proper names. There is one other exception, but it's only a snippet in GB. http://goo.gl/p1Fil Saturday Review, supposedly from 1892. Internal check suggests that the date is accurate, but should still be verified. The passage refers to "tsuyu-soup". Another passage (1893) identifies "sausage in syrup" but it's a tsuyu compound, so I did not keep track of it. VS-) On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > I don't see tsuyu in the OED. "Soup" seems to be a common way to referring > to this. I think that's what the waiter in the pseudo-Japanese restaurant > responded with when I asked for tsuyu and he didn't know the word. > > 1. The earliest I see on Google Books for "tsuyu" as dipping broth is 1914, > though the authors seem to confuse tsuyu ( $B$D$f (B or $B=A (B) "broth, dipping broth" > and tsuyu "dew" ( $BO* (B). > > The world's story: a history of the world in story, song and art, ed. by > Eva March Tappan (Google eBook)) (http://ow.ly/63121) > Karl Julius Ploetz, Horatio Willis Dresser > Houghton Mifflin company > > ----- > Then comes the first "honorable" table, a small lacquered tray with > lacquered blows upon it, containing a covered basin of tsuyu-soup--the > "honorable dew"--a little pot of soy, a gilded platter with various sweet > and aromatic condiments upon it, and some wonderful vegetables, environing > some fairy cutlets of salmon. > ----- > > 2. The next occurrence jumps to 1964: > > The East, Volumes 1-3, East Publications, Inc., page 38 ( > http://ow.ly/630VM) > > ----- > _Udon_ and _soba_ can be bought in most food stores in Japan, so one need > only know how to prepare the soup, or _tsuyu_: Dried bonito flakes... > ----- > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 05:35:03 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:35:03 -0700 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150523.p7EB0kKu031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nice! Generally speaking, we wouldn't expect to see anything much earlier than when the country opened up to Perry in 1854; that's getting very close. It's likely that the characters are simply misprints. People make errors today with computers and doing so when reference books were difficult to come by would have been much more likely. BB On Aug 14, 2011, at 10:23 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I believe, I found an earlier version of the same story--1891. And it may > not be the earliest, as the subtitle suggests that the stories were culled > from a journal published in the Daily Telegraph, although the dates are not > specified. In fact, "tsuyu" is mentioned twice, although the first one does > not appear to be integrated (but does explain the confusion in the second). > > http://goo.gl/Fmv4y > Seas and lands. By Sir Edwin Arnold. NY: Longmans, 1891 > [Reprinted by Permission of the Proprietors of the "Daily Telegraph" From > Letters Published Under the Title "By Sea and Land" in That Journal.] > Chapter 14. Rural Japan. p. 190-1 > >> First appears a small square table about eight inches high, upon which are >> placed fresh cups and chopsticks *(hashi), *the latter being cut from >> white wood, the two sticks still joined at the end, so that you may know >> they are fresh and unused. You separate them as a hungry man takes up his >> knife and fork, and are then ready for the "honourable tray " of red or >> black lacquer, which is slid within your reach by the kneeling and bowing >> *musume. *On each of our trays was a little bowl of soup with shreds of >> vegetables, a saucer of pickled celery and radish--*tsukemono*--a minute >> slab of boiled trout, another saucer holding shreds of cold chicken, and a >> wooden bowl with a rather doubtful composition of some sort of whey and >> white of egg. Between the trays a large wooden tub of hot boiled rice, >> admirably dressed, was set, with a fresh pot of tea. A plate of cakes--* >> kashi*--also appeared, and when we had asked for and obtained salt and >> bread $B!= (Barticles apparently not usually furnished--there was quite enough to >> eat, and of no bad quality. The little glossy-haired *musume *kneels all >> the time before the guest, softly murmuring as she re-fills your plate or >> cup, "*Mo sukoshi nasai*"--" Condescend to take a little more!"--and it is >> part of the refined politeness of this nation that they call hot water, tea, >> and soup, by complimentary terms, as "*O yu," " *The honourable >> hot-water;" "*0 cha," "*The honourable tea;" " *0 **tsuyu," **" *The >> honourable refreshing dew--of soup." The hot white rice, decorously poked >> into the mouth with the chopsticks from the edge of the laquered basin, is >> the real mainstay of the meal, which, being removed, the tobacco-box and >> small bamboo pipes succeed. > > > The second citation matches the 1914 one: > > Chapter 17. A Japanese Dinner. p. 232 > [See original quotation.] > > Amazingly enough, OED has an earlier mention of "tsukemono" (1885). The rest > of the Japanese terms are not found in the OED. > > The same text is reprinted in 1899 ( http://goo.gl/gu5Jt ). > > The 1872 Japanese-Engish dictionary in GB gives several representations for > three "tsuyu" words--rainy season, dew and broth/soup. But the first pair of > characters you list for broth appears in all three. > > http://goo.gl/Ovl0p > p. 571 > > On the other hand, this dictionary cannot be used for antedating because > "tsuyu" appears only in Japanese phrases in it. What's interesting about it > is that there are a number of semi-integrated sources (that is, those that > cite both the Japanese word and the translation, but as a part of a running > text), in addition to a number of transliterations of Japanese text. But > virtually all of the ones prior to 1920 refer to either "dew" or "rainy > season" (mid-June to early July, not the one in September--others suggest > that /all/ rainy seasons are identified as "tsuyu"). Some mention various > combinations, such as pottery called "Shira-tsuyu" (white dew) and the > phrase "asa-tsuyu" (morning dew or "something transient"). The rest are > actually proper names. > > There is one other exception, but it's only a snippet in GB. > > http://goo.gl/p1Fil > Saturday Review, supposedly from 1892. > > Internal check suggests that the date is accurate, but should still be > verified. The passage refers to "tsuyu-soup". > > Another passage (1893) identifies "sausage in syrup" but it's a tsuyu > compound, so I did not keep track of it. > > VS-) > > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> I don't see tsuyu in the OED. "Soup" seems to be a common way to referring >> to this. I think that's what the waiter in the pseudo-Japanese restaurant >> responded with when I asked for tsuyu and he didn't know the word. >> >> 1. The earliest I see on Google Books for "tsuyu" as dipping broth is 1914, >> though the authors seem to confuse tsuyu ( $B$D$f (B or $B=A (B) "broth, dipping broth" >> and tsuyu "dew" ( $BO* (B). >> >> The world's story: a history of the world in story, song and art, ed. by >> Eva March Tappan (Google eBook)) (http://ow.ly/63121) >> Karl Julius Ploetz, Horatio Willis Dresser >> Houghton Mifflin company >> >> ----- >> Then comes the first "honorable" table, a small lacquered tray with >> lacquered blows upon it, containing a covered basin of tsuyu-soup--the >> "honorable dew"--a little pot of soy, a gilded platter with various sweet >> and aromatic condiments upon it, and some wonderful vegetables, environing >> some fairy cutlets of salmon. >> ----- >> >> 2. The next occurrence jumps to 1964: >> >> The East, Volumes 1-3, East Publications, Inc., page 38 ( >> http://ow.ly/630VM) >> >> ----- >> _Udon_ and _soba_ can be bought in most food stores in Japan, so one need >> only know how to prepare the soup, or _tsuyu_: Dried bonito flakes... >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Aug 15 08:05:09 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 04:05:09 -0400 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150535.p7EB0kL0031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/15/2011 1:35 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Nice! > > Generally speaking, we wouldn't expect to see anything much earlier than when the country opened up to Perry in 1854; that's getting very close. > > It's likely that the characters are simply misprints. People make errors today with computers and doing so when reference books were difficult to come by would have been much more likely. -- I think the characters Victor Steinbok refers to which are constant are the kana (phonetic symbols) "tsu", "yu" ... although katakana appear in the dictionary rather than Benjamin Barrett's hiragana. The characters look OK although I can't make out every stroke. One might suppose that "tsuyu" = "soup/juice/sap/sauce/gravy/etc." is originally the same Japanese word as "tsuyu" = "dew", just assigned different kanji for different meanings/sub-meanings. As for the other "tsuyu", the kanji mean "plum rain" or so and (AFAIK) the individual pronunciations of these two kanji have no relation at all to "tsuyu", they are just attached to "tsuyu" as a pair (jukujikun, I think). Again this "tsuyu" could conceivably be basically/originally the same native word as "dew". However, Starostin's site shows two different Proto-Altaic antecedents (for those who believe in Proto-Altaic), and three separate Proto-Japanese words (all *tuju though), so I dunno. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\japet (enter [e.g.] <> in the "Tokyo" box) I guess one can forgive the writer for thinking the words are/were the same: hard to prove otherwise, anyway. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 08:33:20 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:33:20 -0700 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150806.p7EB0kNo031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 1:05 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > On 8/15/2011 1:35 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >> Nice! >> >> Generally speaking, we wouldn't expect to see anything much earlier than when the country opened up to Perry in 1854; that's getting very close. >> >> It's likely that the characters are simply misprints. People make errors today with computers and doing so when reference books were difficult to come by would have been much more likely. > -- > > I think the characters Victor Steinbok refers to which are constant are > the kana (phonetic symbols) "tsu", "yu" ... although katakana appear in > the dictionary rather than Benjamin Barrett's hiragana. The characters > look OK although I can't make out every stroke. > > One might suppose that "tsuyu" = "soup/juice/sap/sauce/gravy/etc." is > originally the same Japanese word as "tsuyu" = "dew", just assigned > different kanji for different meanings/sub-meanings. As for the other > "tsuyu", the kanji mean "plum rain" or so and (AFAIK) the individual > pronunciations of these two kanji have no relation at all to "tsuyu", > they are just attached to "tsuyu" as a pair (jukujikun, I think). Again > this "tsuyu" could conceivably be basically/originally the same native > word as "dew". > > However, Starostin's site shows two different Proto-Altaic antecedents > (for those who believe in Proto-Altaic), and three separate > Proto-Japanese words (all *tuju though), so I dunno. > > http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\japet > > (enter [e.g.] <> in the "Tokyo" box) > > I guess one can forgive the writer for thinking the words are/were the > same: hard to prove otherwise, anyway. The katakana ツユ in the dictionary are indeed the same as my hiragana つゆ. Katakana was the norm before WWII, so that is merely an orthographic convention. I basically agree about the possibilities of the different tsuyu having the same origin. It seems to me that either the English writer might have gotten them confused because they are homophonous, or was making a pun out of playfulness. I consulted a few dictionaries just now. None of my Classical Japanese dictionaries have an entry tusyu for dipping broth, though one or both of the other two meanings occur in them. And no modern dictionary has a derivation of any form of tsuyu. It seems possible that the dipping broth could be from tsuke (dip) yu (hot water), but that's just speculation on my part. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 09:42:04 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:42:04 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150313.p7EAlU8D026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't forget the American isolate in San Francisco. http://www.genghisblues.com/film/index.html Eric On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Throat singing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in > Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." > > So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in > Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." > > Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan > is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an > update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. > Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it > a different type of singing? > > Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 7:59 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > It's quite obvious that the Altaic-wiki includes neither Inuit nor > Tibetan > > overtone chant/singing--an exclusion that may well be acceptable for a > site > > dedicated to Altaic issues, but not for overtone singing in general. Both > > Tibetan and Inuit distributions are significant and the OED entry was for > > "overtone singing", not "throat singing". That's the incomplete part. On > the > > other hand, I find it somewhat difficult to see something that is > adjacent > > to Mongolia and Tibet, since they are not exactly next to each other. > > Mongolia is north of Central China and Tibet is southwest of China > > (mostly--parts of former Tibet region are absorbed in southern Chinese > > provinces). The only region that's adjacent to both is Xinjiang (on > opposite > > ends) and if Uighurs don't practice overtone singing, then the OED > > definition is just wrong, not merely incomplete or questionable (although > > there are more than just Uighurs in Xinjiang--Kazakhs dominate the > northern > > region). The rest of the overtone-singing region may be vaguely adjacent > to > > Mongolia (in a somewhat odd sort of way--minus the Inuit), but certainly > not > > to Tibet. > > > > VS-) > > > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett >wrote: > > > >> > >> Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat > >> singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: > >> > >> Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China > >> Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva > Republic > >> Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai > >> Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China > >> Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia > >> Nanai people: Russia, China > >> > >> I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but > their > >> geographic description sounds reasonable to me. > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 14:21:26 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:21:26 -0400 Subject: OT: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/14/2011 11:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >Going in the other direction, in the just finished (season-final) episode of >Leverage (TNT), the final scene included a comment about "friends with >bennies". Thought I should mention it in this context. Jack and Hill? Must be a barrel of laughs. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 14:47:51 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:47:51 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version Message-ID: I have been asked about a popular proclamation attributed to Coco Chanel: Fashion fades, only style remains the same. The most common modern phrasing differs from the earliest version I have located in an interview with Chanel in 1965. She uses the word "mode" and not "fashion" in her aphorism. Designer Yves Saint Laurent also made a similar statement by the 1980s. Does any list member know if Chanel said something similar in French? The French WikiQuote does not have a webpage for Chanel. I am interested in the transition from French to English if such a transition occurred. (I apologize if this question appears to be off topic. But I believe that some list members have extensive knowledge of English and French.) Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on paper) But style should reach the people, no? It should descend into the streets, into people's lives, like a revolution. That is real style. The rest is mode. Mode passes; style remains. Mode is made of a few amusing ideas, meant to be used up quickly, so they can be replaced by others in the next collection. A style endures even as it is renewed and evolved. Thanks for any help you can provide, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Aug 15 14:57:27 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:57:27 +0000 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108151448.p7FAl9Am001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another variant (in English) is "Styles change, style does not." --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Garson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 10:47 AM I have been asked about a popular proclamation attributed to Coco Chanel: Fashion fades, only style remains the same. The most common modern phrasing differs from the earliest version I have located in an interview with Chanel in 1965. She uses the word "mode" and not "fashion" in her aphorism. Designer Yves Saint Laurent also made a similar statement by the 1980s. Does any list member know if Chanel said something similar in French? The French WikiQuote does not have a webpage for Chanel. I am interested in the transition from French to English if such a transition occurred. (I apologize if this question appears to be off topic. But I believe that some list members have extensive knowledge of English and French.) Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on paper) But style should reach the people, no? It should descend into the streets, into people's lives, like a revolution. That is real style. The rest is mode. Mode passes; style remains. Mode is made of a few amusing ideas, meant to be used up quickly, so they can be replaced by others in the next collection. A style endures even as it is renewed and evolved. Thanks for any help you can provide, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 15:37:04 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:37:04 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I actually brought up the homonymy with the NOM group as an argument against choosing "nom" as Word of the Year in the debate before the ADS vote in January. Don't know if it swayed any voters—not that I was all that excited about "app" either. LH On Aug 7, 2011, at 6:03 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > >> (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) > > "Nom" came up when I posted a photo to flickr of people at a National > Organization for Marriage rally. Both I and a young employee of mine > thought the acronym "NOM" was giggle-worthy, given the lolcat > referent. (NOM is an anti-same-sex marriage organization. They use the > phrase "traditional marriage" to denote mixed-sex monogamous marriage, > which I find disingenuous.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 16:03:32 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:03:32 +0000 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy Message-ID: I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 16:31:53 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:31:53 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151603.p7FEvYge001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's probably not it, but it's far earlier than any allusion I can think of. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline > and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed > to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest > known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 16:57:45 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:57:45 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151603.p7FEvYge001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's an interesting question and I would have thought it to be much earlier. But looking at Wiki, it makes me wonder if the expression is always interpreted in the same manner. I find the Wiki examples of Greek myths with allegedly self-fulfilling prophecies less than compelling--some involve vague predictions that are misinterpreted, others have the butterfly-economics sort of effect, where a response to a prophecy sets off a chain of accidents, eventually leading to the fulfillment of the prophecy. All of these seem to be far removed from Merton's notion--or, for that matter--from Gibbon's version. Among the Greek examples listed there, the only one that falls into the Merton category appears to be one of Zeus deciding to wage war on Cronos after the oracle predicts that Zeus will overthrow him and take his place. But even this is somewhat unsatisfying because Zeus takes action specifically intending to fulfill the prophecy. The Krishna version--an Indian counterpart to Oedipus, without the incest--seems to fit a bit better. Krishna is exiled after having been smuggled out of prison where his mother was kept by her brother. And the uncle continues to try to kill Krishna for years later. As a retribution for the acts against him and his mother, Krishna eventually deposes his uncle and kills him, thus fulfilling the prophecy. In this version, Krishna's acts are a direct response to acts caused by the prophecy, but he is not acting with the desire to fulfill the prophecy. In contrast, Oedipus is similarly exiled, but there is nothing in his actions that is directly related to the prophecy and the eventual encounter that leads to its fulfillment is accidental. My understanding of a self-fulfilling prophecy is that acts directly in response to a prophesy causally contribute to its eventual fulfillment without a direct intent to fulfill the prophecy. Most Greek myths fail the first part (causal connection) while the Zeus/Cronos myth fails the second. It is perfectly possible that my interpretation is too restrictive and the Wiki contributors are correct. But, in my view, fatalism and inexorable fate are not a part of self-fulfilling prophecy--they are essentially unrelated concepts. On the other hand, for example, I would consider marketing based on product sales rank to be a self-fulfilling prophecy (to a point)--i.e., a product is marketed as best to buy because it is already best selling (implying that the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong thereby inducing other consumers to buy it as well). Similar issues exist in rankings based on polls and surveys--whether it's college football or Zagat's restaurant reviews. VS-) On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline > and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed > to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest > known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 17:28:55 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:28:55 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151657.p7FGg3RO006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too young to get it. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 17:32:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:32:04 -0400 Subject: Lionized In-Reply-To: <201108142129.p7EB0k7k031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the recent release of Lion, the new Mac OS, has resulted in a slew of uses of "lionization." What will be interesting is if the word catches on in regular parlance or undergoes a shift in meaning. > I'm a Mac-user, a fanboi, even, but, God! I hope that any connection of _lionize_ with the Lion OS quickly dies out! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 17:52:03 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:52:03 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >> the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen…" LH > that, > even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never > really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too > young to get it. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 17:52:39 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:52:39 -0400 Subject: Somewhat amusing typo -- "altering" for "alerting" Message-ID: In response to an email message in which I called attention to a traffic light frequently disobeyed (by drivers) and partially obscured (by tree leaves), the "Transportation Administrator" (whom I leave unnamed) of a town near Boston wrote: "Thank you for altering us to this issue, we will have it addressed immediately." I am impressed that my comment redirected their attention. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 18:18:29 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:18:29 -0400 Subject: Lionized In-Reply-To: <5F474A82-0EF8-43B6-AF27-3BF7E2D0773E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/14/2011 05:29 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >As expected, the recent release of Lion, the new Mac OS, has >resulted in a slew of uses of "lionization." What will be >interesting is if the word catches on in regular parlance or >undergoes a shift in meaning. lion (1715) : lioness (1808) :: lionize (1834, 1837) : ?? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Aug 15 18:24:07 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:24:07 +0000 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151657.p7FEvYvs001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Which is why (as some sociologist pointed out years ago) political polls--like the recent Iowa "straw poll"--are important: Americans like to vote for "winners," to be associated (in their own minds, at least) with victorious candidates. Even if the election outcome to which they contributed is actually disadvantageous to those voters (as some other commentator has noted, Americans vote not the interest of class to which they belong but the interest of the class to which they wish they belonged). --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of victor steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 12:57 PM It is perfectly possible that my interpretation is too restrictive and the Wiki contributors are correct. But, in my view, fatalism and inexorable fate are not a part of self-fulfilling prophecy--they are essentially unrelated concepts. On the other hand, for example, I would consider marketing based on product sales rank to be a self-fulfilling prophecy (to a point)--i.e., a product is marketed as best to buy because it is already best selling (implying that the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong thereby inducing other consumers to buy it as well). Similar issues exist in rankings based on polls and surveys--whether it's college football or Zagat's restaurant reviews. VS-) On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline > and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed > to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest > known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 18:41:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:41:41 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151752.p7FGg3a8006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen…" How strange! _Forty-million_ rings not a single bell for me. I guess that Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Aug 15 18:59:33 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:59:33 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151842.p7FGg3gg006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen " > > How strange! _Forty-million_ rings not a single bell for me. I guess that > > Youneverknow. Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher wrote the song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual population of France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until 1968, says Wikipedia. Audio to a 1927 version by Ted Lewis and His Band: http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/lewis/fiftymillionfrenchhmen.ra Lyrics to the Sophie Tucker version: http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 19:13:08 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:13:08 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <1313434773.4e496c95567eb@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen…" >> >> How strange! _Forty-million_ rings not a single bell for me. I guess that >> >> Youneverknow. > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher wrote the > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual population of > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until 1968, > says Wikipedia. > > Audio to a 1927 version by Ted Lewis and His Band: > http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/lewis/fiftymillionfrenchhmen.ra > > Lyrics to the Sophie Tucker version: > http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml > > I guess Pynchon must have grown up on my side of the isogloss: http://www.ottosell.de/pynchon/jokespuns.htm Gravity’s Rainbow contains so many jokes and puns that a typology might make a helpful doctoral dissertation. Here, only two of the best–known examples will serve as models: "The Disgusting English Candy Drill" (114-20) and "For De Mille, young fur–henchmen can’t be rowing" (557-63). Each is lovingly set up. Steven Weisenburger calls "De Mille" the "most elaborately staged pun in all of GR. … Note that Pynchon has fashioned an entire narrative digression about illicit trading in furs, oarsmen in boats, fur–henchmen, and De Mille—all of it in order to launch this pun" (240). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 19:16:19 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:16:19 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151859.p7FAl9RK024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher wrote the > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual population of > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until 1968, > says Wikipedia. > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected any kind of reality? BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue to the point of the expression! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 19:34:59 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:34:59 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151917.p7FAl9Ss024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 slang I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use in the army in 1918. The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French rarely bathed. The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the French were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far beyond "French kissing," if you get my drift. So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her many, many acquaintances. The alleged lyrics: http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase originated. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher > wrote the > > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual > population of > > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until > 1968, > > says Wikipedia. > > > > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected > any kind of reality? > > BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a > song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue > to the point of the expression! > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 19:48:51 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:48:51 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 slang > I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use in > the army in 1918. > > The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable > defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") > > The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French rarely > bathed. > > The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the French > were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far beyond > "French kissing," if you get my drift. > > So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a > wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her > many, many acquaintances. > > The alleged lyrics: > http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml > > seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase originated. > > JL And can we assume (an assumption not entirely gainsaid by the OED entry) that "teddy" for 'a woman's undergarment combining chemise and panties' derives from stanza 5 of the above ditty? LH > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer >> wrote: >>> Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher >> wrote the >>> song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual >> population of >>> France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until >> 1968, >>> says Wikipedia. >>> >> >> But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected >> any kind of reality? >> >> BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a >> song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue >> to the point of the expression! >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Aug 15 19:55:41 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:55:41 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: An Access Newspaper Archive search for the phrase "frenchmen can't be wrong" finds nothing earlier than the 1927 song, so the song certainly popularized and probably originated the phrase. My guess is that the 40 million number came from speakers who were aware that there were not then 50 million Frenchmen in France. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 3:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 slang I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use in the army in 1918. The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French rarely bathed. The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the French were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far beyond "French kissing," if you get my drift. So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her many, many acquaintances. The alleged lyrics: http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewro ng.shtml seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase originated. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher > wrote the > > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual > population of > > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until > 1968, > > says Wikipedia. > > > > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected > any kind of reality? > > BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a > song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue > to the point of the expression! > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 21:47:37 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:47:37 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151955.p7FI0Qfm001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The question of just when Frenchmen became infallible about what , according to the song is "naughty" and "bad," is probably not resolvable. If the phrase was originally and specifically sexually allusive, one would not expect to find any confirmation of it in print till decades later. And any evident "confirmation" could be questioned as a suspected anachronism. If the song consciously utilized a sexual allusion, it could only have been because the writers were convinced that the actual allusion was unfamiliar to the general public and could not be deduced from the phrase itself. Certainly the song effectively popularized the phrase. Here is a roughly parallel ex. of no probative value. Disney's cartoon movie "Robin Hood," with a woodland-creature cast, features Phil Harris singing a song called "The Phony King of England." The tune and the form are identical to those of a truly salacious song known throughout the English-speaking armies in both world wars as "Balls to the Bastard King of England!" It's nearly incredible that Harris or Disney or whoever got away with it, even in 1973. But that they did is indisputable. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > An Access Newspaper Archive search for the phrase "frenchmen can't be > wrong" finds nothing earlier than the 1927 song, so the song certainly > popularized and probably originated the phrase. My guess is that the 40 > million number came from speakers who were aware that there were not > then 50 million Frenchmen in France. > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 3:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 > slang > I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use > in > the army in 1918. > > The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable > defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") > > The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French > rarely > bathed. > > The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the > French > were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far > beyond > "French kissing," if you get my drift. > > So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a > wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her > many, many acquaintances. > > The alleged lyrics: > http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewro > ng.shtml > > seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase > originated. > > JL > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer > > wrote: > > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred > Fisher > > wrote the > > > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual > > population of > > > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million > until > > 1968, > > > says Wikipedia. > > > > > > > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected > > any kind of reality? > > > > BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a > > song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue > > to the point of the expression! > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 15 23:00:02 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:00:02 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" Except when fifty-million Frenchmen hold an opinion that differs from mine, in which case there can be only one explanation, no? As to the origin -- I have read, many years ago, that it was a slogan coined by a theatrical promoter who had brought a (maybe) famous French (maybe) beauty to perform in this country. If there were those who doubted her fame or her beauty, well, "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" This might have been Florenz Ziegfeld, whose wife was Anna Held, who I believe to have been French, and a beauty, and a performer. I will check further, later this evening. GAT On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, > even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never > really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too > young to get it. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 23:16:04 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:16:04 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108152300.p7FGg37K006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe Ford use the phrase in early advertisements, before the song. Something like, "one million people can't be wrong" DanG On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 7:00 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > Except when fifty-million Frenchmen hold an opinion that differs from mine, > in which case there can be only one explanation, no? > > As to the origin -- I have read, many years ago, that it was a slogan coined > by a theatrical promoter who had brought a (maybe) famous French (maybe) > beauty to perform in this country. If there were those who doubted her fame > or her beauty, well, "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > This might have been Florenz Ziegfeld, whose wife was Anna Held, who I > believe to have been French, and a beauty, and a performer. > I will check further, later this evening. > > GAT > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok >> wrote: >> > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong >> >> "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" >> >> Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, >> even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never >> really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too >> young to get it. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 23:50:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:50:07 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108152316.p7FJgFio024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A search of NewspaperArchive and GB for "million people can't be wrong" turns up nothing of significance. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe Ford use the phrase in early advertisements, before the > song. Something like, "one million people can't be wrong" > DanG > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 7:00 PM, George Thompson > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: George Thompson > > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > Except when fifty-million Frenchmen hold an opinion that differs from > mine, > > in which case there can be only one explanation, no? > > > > As to the origin -- I have read, many years ago, that it was a slogan > coined > > by a theatrical promoter who had brought a (maybe) famous French (maybe) > > beauty to perform in this country. If there were those who doubted her > fame > > or her beauty, well, "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > This might have been Florenz Ziegfeld, whose wife was Anna Held, who I > > believe to have been French, and a beauty, and a performer. > > I will check further, later this evening. > > > > GAT > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok > > >> wrote: > >> > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong > >> > >> "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > >> > >> Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, > >> even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never > >> really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too > >> young to get it. > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > George A. Thompson > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. > > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Aug 16 01:13:44 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:13:44 -0800 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: > [...] > Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant > phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) > > 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) > 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) > 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) > 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) > 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) > 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) > > Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. > > Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview > with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, > Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on > paper) Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Coco Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in a semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the most straightforward translation I can think of. So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correction. The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an intermediary. Chris Waigl (*) ==== « La mode passe, le style reste », ne se lassait de répéter Coco Chanel, dont l'impact sur la garde-robe contemporaine n'a toujours pas d'égal, près de quarante ans après sa disparition. http://www.marieclaire.fr/,curriculum-style-coco-chanel-en-5-dates,20290,20721.asp ==== -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 01:19:43 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:19:43 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151632.p7FEvYow001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fred asked about the "earliest known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy" and mentioned an instance in Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. The first volume of this work was published in 1776. Since this task is not easy to define I decided to search for the concept expressed with words similar to those used by Gibbon. I think that the concept was expressed in 1745 in the work "The Family Expositor: or, A Paraphrase and Version of the New Testament: with Critical Notes and a Practical Improvement of Each Section", Volume 2. This work contains an expanded version of the tale of Mary anointing the feet of Jesus based on the biblical verse Mark 14:9 and the surrounding text. In the expanded text Jesus discusses the future and makes a prediction with additional details supplied by the writer. (Strictly speaking Jesus makes more than one prediction.) The critical notes that are included with the work comment negatively on the recounting of this episode. The critic complains that the prediction is "trifling, and would seem to bespeak its own Accomplishment." I think this is an instance of a writing mentioning the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Here is an excerpt containing the prediction by Jesus that is the subject of the complaint in the critical analysis. And on the whole, tho' you have such hard Thoughts of what she has been doing, it shall not finally turn to her Reproach or Damage; but as I graciously accept it, so I assuredly say unto you, that wheresoever this Gospel of mine is preached, and it in Time shall have its Triumph over the whole World, this very Action also which this pious and affectionate Woman has now performed shall be inserted in the History of my Life, and be spoken of with Honour for a Memorial of her Friendship and Affection to me; so that her Name shall be embalmed in such a Manner, as to be far more fragrant than the Perfume which she has poured forth on my Head and my Feet. (Compare Eccles. vii I.) Here is an excerpt from the critical analysis that contains the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy: Not to say, that the Prediction, which Mr Whiston supposes our Lord to utter, is quite trifling, and would seem to bespeak its own Accomplishment, in a Manner which he never would have stooped to. Here are some links into the book so the reader can perform his or her own analysis. http://books.google.com/books?id=mqYGAAAAQAAJ&q=bespeak#v=snippet& http://books.google.com/books?id=mqYGAAAAQAAJ&q=%22her+friendship%22#v=snippet& On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That's probably not it, but it's far earlier than any allusion I can think > of. > > JL > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline >> and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed >> to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest >> known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 01:49:46 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:49:46 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201102112302.p1BKL8kg013743@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song sung in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned many songs from his father: "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably the couplet originated in the nineteenth century. JL On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:09 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Perhaps, as Hamlet said, the readiness is all. Or the gaydar. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 11, 2011, at 5:03 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 8:59 PM, wrote: > >> [T]hat doesn't mean the little guy likes girls! > > > > Quite so! > > > > Absent context, one never knows, do one? :-) > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ––– > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > –Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 02:07:40 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 22:07:40 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160149.p7FGg3OW006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > Up jumped the little crabfish and _caught *her* by the cock_." Oh. My. God. I… I. Have. No. Words. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 16 02:19:10 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:19:10 -0700 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160208.p7FJgF0a024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. >> Up jumped the little crabfish and _caught *her* by the cock_." > > Oh. My. God. I… I. Have. No. Words. > Doesn't "cock" just mean vagina? Is there something else there? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 02:35:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 22:35:47 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160149.p7FGg3OW006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > As I was reading the song, _Barbary - also _Barbara_? Allan_, I came across the phrase, "… look over in yonders field" Connoisseurs of the blues will be reminded of the blues phrase, "Look over yonders wall…" Quelle coincidence! BTW, what's the deal with "… high, low, jack, and the game" I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" an obvious pun. The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, IME, card game. Help a brother out, y'all. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 04:09:50 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:09:50 -0400 Subject: treating ugly Message-ID: For the fans of "treating bad", a little gem from Rick Perry: If this guy prints more money between now and the election, I dunno what > y’all would do to him in Iowa but we would treat him pretty ugly down in > Texas. Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in > history is almost treasonous in my opinion. Now, *I* am *not* passing judgment. I actually happen to think that no judgment is to be passed--even if it sounds a bit ... ahem... Texan. But that should not stop anyone else--especially those who care to pass judgment on those who pass judgment. ;-) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 04:28:00 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:28:00 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108160113.p7FJgFwa024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks to Charlie and Chris. The OED has an entry for "mode" that shows it has been used in English with a sense derived from the French word for many years. mode, n. II. In senses derived from French. 7. a. A prevailing fashion, custom, practice, or style, esp. one characteristic of a particular place or period. Admittedly, the OED gloss mentions fashion and style, the two words that the modern aphorism is attempting to distinguish. OED citations for mode begin in 1642. Here are the cites in 1884 and 1920. 1884 W. C. Smith Kildrostan 69 We are grown To be a sort of dandies in religion, Affecting the last mode. 1920 Amer. Woman Aug. 7/1 In the neckwear departments the racks are hung . . with madeup collars which attest the prevailing mode. Chris Waigl wrote: > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted > all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the > help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? Excellent question. I examined the McCall's interview and was unable to determine if it was conducted in French, English, or a mixture. The prefatory comments do not indicate the language spoken and do not mention a translator. While answering an interview question Chanel mentioned the Duke of Westminster and indicated that she was able to speak some English because she did so with him. (Begin excerpt) I was lucky to have known the Duke. Fourteen years. That is a long time, no? He was shy and timid, too, but I have never felt more protected. He was solid and comfortable. He understood me—except for my working, of course. He gave me peace. He was generous. He was simple. We talked half in English, half in French. "I don't want you to learn English," he said, "and discover there is nothing in the conversation you hear around us." The clips I found on YouTube show Chanel speaking only French. The clips are from interviews performed in 1969 and 1970. It is possible that the entire McCall's interview was conducted in French and the interviewer Joseph Barry translated the words into English. I am not sure. Perhaps Barry was familiar with the English word "mode" and thought it would be perfect for the translation. Alternatively, Coco Chanel presented the aphorism while she was speaking English. Thanks for pointing out "la mode passe, le style reste". I can find many instances of this French phrase but oddly none of them appear in 1965 or earlier. This may be an artifact of the poor coverage of French periodicals in the databases I access. If someone finds and shares a citation in French or English for this saying before 1965 that would be very kind. Garson On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Chris Waigl > Subject: � � � Re: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) > � � � � � � � Question about French version > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: > >> [...] >> Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant >> phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) >> >> 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) >> 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) >> 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) >> >> Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. >> >> Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview >> with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, >> Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on >> paper) > > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? > > The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Coco Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in a semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the most straightforward translation I can think of. > > So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correction. The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an intermediary. > > Chris Waigl > > > (*) > ==== > « La mode passe, le style reste », ne se lassait de répéter Coco Chanel, dont l'impact sur la garde-robe contemporaine n'a toujours pas d'égal, prčs de quarante ans aprčs sa disparition. > http://www.marieclaire.fr/,curriculum-style-coco-chanel-en-5-dates,20290,20721.asp > ==== > -- > Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net > twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 06:56:57 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:56:57 -0400 Subject: treating ugly In-Reply-To: <201108160438.p7FL0EMW021220@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:09 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > For the fans of "treating bad", a little gem from Rick Perry: > > If this guy prints more money between now and the election, I dunno what >> y=92all would do to him in Iowa but we would treat him pretty ugly down i= > n >> Texas. Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in >> history is almost treasonous in my opinion. > In Texas, if you _act ugly_, then you can expect to be _treated ugly_. Nothing special about that. Right, Charlie? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 09:08:12 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 05:08:12 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160236.p7G2RWQ8006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards of any suit. Eric On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > BTW, what's the deal with > > "… high, low, jack, and the game" > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > an obvious pun. > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > IME, card game. > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 11:26:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 07:26:07 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160908.p7G2RWkw006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all she wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > o= > f > any suit. > > Eric > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > IME, card game. > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 12:07:55 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:07:55 +0000 Subject: "Cock" Message-ID: If my memory is correct, this is also a phrase associated with the game of cribbage. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:26:07 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Cock" For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all she wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > o= > f > any suit. > > Eric > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > IME, card game. > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 12:18:41 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:18:41 -0400 Subject: P. Petit quote Message-ID: I remember this one. It isn't in YBQ, but it's at least as good as Mallory's "Because it's there," which is. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/man-wire-remembers-twin-towers-155014147.html : After Petit finally came down from the tightrope (unharmed), he was arrested, jailed, taken for a psychological evaluation, and released. Journalists asked the performer why he did it. The then 24-year-old responded, "When I see three oranges, I juggle. When I see two towers, I walk." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 12:27:11 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:27:11 +0000 Subject: "Cock" Message-ID: Ignore that, please. There is no way that could be associated with cribbage. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Ron Butters To: ,"Jonathan Lighter" Cc: Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 12:07:55 PM GMT+0000 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Cock" If my memory is correct, this is also a phrase associated with the game of cribbage. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:26:07 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Cock" For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all she wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > o= > f > any suit. > > Eric > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > IME, card game. > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 14:05:38 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:05:38 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song sung in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned many songs from his father: "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably the couplet originated in the nineteenth century. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 16 14:12:53 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:12:53 -0400 Subject: "chat-down" Message-ID: Nonce for now, but I could see it becoming popular... --- http://www.npr.org/2011/08/16/139643652/next-in-line-for-the-tsa-a-thorough-chat-down NPR Morning Edition, 8/16/11, "Next In Line For The TSA? A Thorough 'Chat-Down'" Unlike the usual security pat-down, the profiling process is what you might call a "chat-down." --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 15:28:42 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:28:42 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161405.p7GApM81023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't see how we could know. But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in the minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male and female physiology seems incontrovertible. I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, from the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague euphemisms with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") Anyone using the word in a unisex manner today may realistically be suspected of tendentiousness. A hundred years from now, who knows? JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed > to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song > sung > in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to > have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned > many > songs from his father: > > "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > > http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > > I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop > Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably > the > couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 16 15:42:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:42:02 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I don't see how we could know. In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an unambiguously hetero context. > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in the > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male and > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, from > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague euphemisms > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). LH > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: "Cock" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf >> Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: "Cock" >> >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song >> sung >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned >> many >> songs from his father: >> >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." >> >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam >> >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably >> the >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. >> >> JL >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 15:54:45 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:54:45 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161542.p7GAqXlS016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I think most all of us would guess the same. "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, they're technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent or similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and is other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) for both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but will it catch on?) JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > I don't see how we could know. > > In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an > unambiguously hetero context. > > > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was > > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in > the > > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male > and > > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, > from > > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I > > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague > euphemisms > > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") > > or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like > "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). > > > LH > > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Baker, John" > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed > >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > >> > >> > >> John Baker > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf > >> Of Jonathan Lighter > >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song > >> sung > >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to > >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned > >> many > >> songs from his father: > >> > >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > >> > >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > >> > >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop > >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably > >> the > >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > >> > >> JL > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 16:19:58 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:19:58 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, gee, LIMB means both 'arm' and 'leg'--and TIT is used (at least informally) to refer to both male and female anatomy, so why not COCK? Not to mention that ASS means the hindquarters region for both male and female, as well as meaning (metonymically?) female genitalia. According to the first citation in DARE, COCK in Indiana in the 1890s applied to both male and female genitalia. And the final citation, from American Speech 1970, says the both-sex reference is found in Missouri. Neither seems particularly "postmodern." Of course the reporters could be wrong, but I doubt that politics has much to do with what southern folk called their genitals in the earlier 20th century. Of course, that doesn't mean somebody can't find an excuse to make a little sociopolitical rant, even so. One ancecdote, told to me by a bisexual male student (from the rural SC-NC border) c1970: "I said to my roommate, 'I need some cock bad'. He didn't know I thought about doing gay stuff, and I just assumed he knew I meant 'pussy'. But he unzipped his pants and I was ready for that, too." This is as close as I can come to any confirmation that COCK actually meant simply 'genitalia' (or, by extension, interaction with genitalia), but it seemed to me that the student assumed that In understood him to understand that COCK in his dialect was not restricted to the male member. On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as > acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I > think most all of us would guess the same. > > "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, they're > technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the > expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. > > More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent or > similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and is > other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) for > both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. > (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but > will it catch on?) > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Cock" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> I don't see how we could know. >> >> In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an >> unambiguously hetero context. >>> >>> But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was >>> suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in >> the >>> minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male >> and >>> female physiology seems incontrovertible. >>> >>> I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, >> from >>> the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I >>> believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague >> euphemisms >>> with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") >> >> or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like >> "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). >> >> >> LH >> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Baker, John" >>>> Subject: Re: "Cock" >>>> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed >>>> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? >>>> >>>> >>>> John Baker >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf >>>> Of Jonathan Lighter >>>> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: "Cock" >>>> >>>> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song >>>> sung >>>> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to >>>> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned >>>> many >>>> songs from his father: >>>> >>>> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. >>>> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." >>>> >>>> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam >>>> >>>> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop >>>> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably >>>> the >>>> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >> truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 16 16:32:17 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:32:17 -0700 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161620.p7GApMTH016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I found my 1982 abridged edition of "Slang and Euphemism" by Spears, which cites 1800s and before for this use. "6. the female genitals. In much of the Southern U.S. and Caribbean, "cock" refers to the female organs exclusively. Possibly related to COCKLES (q.v.). Cf. sense 2. [U.S. dialect and Negro stage, 1800s and before] 7.. women considered solely as sexual objects. From sense 6. 8. to receive a man in copulation, said of a woman. [British, 1800s, Farmer and Henley]" Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 16, 2011, at 9:19 AM, Ronald Butters wrote: > According to the first citation in DARE, COCK in Indiana in the 1890s = > applied to both male and female genitalia. And the final citation, from = > American Speech 1970, says the both-sex reference is found in Missouri. = > Neither seems particularly "postmodern." Of course the reporters could = > be wrong, but I doubt that politics has much to do with what southern = > folk called their genitals in the earlier 20th century. Of course, that = > doesn't mean somebody can't find an excuse to make a little = > sociopolitical rant, even so. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 16:58:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:58:16 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161126.p7GApMS3023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sounds rather similar to the standard tennis metaphor. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is > missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. > > Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in > 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all > she > wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen > wrote: > > > > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must > be > > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > > of any suit. > > > > Eric > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > > IME, card game. > > > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > > > -- > > > -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 17:33:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:33:01 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108160438.p7FJgF88024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm certainly with Chris on this one, but I had a different concern. "Style" has multiple glosses even in English and I am not convinced that the French [likely] original would correspond to the same English word in this context. On the other hand, the version "styles change; style does not" actually communicates the message rather well. In particular, "last year's fashion" can be communicated as "last year's style"--both captured rather neatly with "mode". But the "style" in the counterpoint is something entirely different--it's either the sense of a personal style (how one presents oneself) or the sense of style that a designer projects through all his/her lines. A French speaker would have to explain whether such distinction even exists in French, but that distinction may well be the root of the maxim. To confirm this suspicion, I typed "fashions fade" instead of "fashion passes" into the Google search bar. I immediately got a list of suggestions, all variants on "fashions fade, style is eternal"--which is exactly what I was expecting. If you're going to track down the original quote, you should certainly consider this version as well. Interestingly, the attribution on this one is almost universally to Yves Saint Laurent. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Many thanks to Charlie and Chris. > > The OED has an entry for "mode" that shows it has been used in English > with a sense derived from the French word for many years. > > mode, n. > II. In senses derived from French. > 7. a. A prevailing fashion, custom, practice, or style, esp. one > characteristic of a particular place or period. > > Admittedly, the OED gloss mentions fashion and style, the two words > that the modern aphorism is attempting to distinguish. > > OED citations for mode begin in 1642. Here are the cites in 1884 and 1920. > > 1884 W. C. Smith Kildrostan 69 We are grown To be a sort of > dandies in religion, Affecting the last mode. > 1920 Amer. Woman Aug. 7/1 In the neckwear departments the racks > are hung . . with madeup collars which attest the prevailing mode. > > Chris Waigl wrote: > > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted > > all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the > > help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? > > Excellent question. I examined the McCall's interview and was unable > to determine if it was conducted in French, English, or a mixture. The > prefatory comments do not indicate the language spoken and do not > mention a translator. > > While answering an interview question Chanel mentioned the Duke of > Westminster and indicated that she was able to speak some English > because she did so with him. > > (Begin excerpt) > I was lucky to have known the Duke. Fourteen years. That is a long > time, no? He was shy and timid, too, but I have never felt more > protected. He was solid and comfortable. He understood me—except for > my working, of course. He gave me peace. He was generous. He was > simple. We talked half in English, half in French. "I don't want you > to learn English," he said, "and discover there is nothing in the > conversation you hear around us." > > The clips I found on YouTube show Chanel speaking only French. The > clips are from interviews performed in 1969 and 1970. > > It is possible that the entire McCall's interview was conducted in > French and the interviewer Joseph Barry translated the words into > English. I am not sure. Perhaps Barry was familiar with the English > word "mode" and thought it would be perfect for the translation. > > Alternatively, Coco Chanel presented the aphorism while she was > speaking English. > > Thanks for pointing out "la mode passe, le style reste". I can find > many instances of this French phrase but oddly none of them appear in > 1965 or earlier. This may be an artifact of the poor coverage of > French periodicals in the databases I access. > > If someone finds and shares a citation in French or English for this > saying before 1965 that would be very kind. > > Garson > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > > > > On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > >> [...] > >> Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant > >> phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) > >> > >> 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) > >> 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an > interview) > >> 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) > >> > >> Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. > >> > >> Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview > >> with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, > >> Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on > >> paper) > > > > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English > and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or by > a bilingual interviewer? > > > > The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode > passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Coco > Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) > repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in a > semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the > most straightforward translation I can think of. > > > > So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular > interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) > might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correction. > The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an > intermediary. > > > > Chris Waigl > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 18:04:06 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:04:06 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: When I first asked the question whether "cock" might be unisex for these speakers, it was out of curiosity and without a view as to what the answer would be. As I think about it further, however, it seems to me that there must have been at least some speakers for whom "cock" was unisex. After all, we know that the term crossed the gender barrier, and it's hard to see how else that could have happened, even though the evidence seems to be that, for most speakers, "cock" is specifically masculine or feminine. The existence of unisex terms such as "privates" shows that we don't have to reach too far to find terms for genitalia that do cross the gender line. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I think most all of us would guess the same. "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, they're technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent or similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and is other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) for both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but will it catch on?) JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > I don't see how we could know. > > In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an > unambiguously hetero context. > > > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was > > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in > the > > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male > and > > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, > from > > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I > > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague > euphemisms > > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") > > or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like > "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). > > > LH > > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Baker, John" > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > >> > >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed > >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > >> > >> > >> John Baker > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf > >> Of Jonathan Lighter > >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song > >> sung > >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to > >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned > >> many > >> songs from his father: > >> > >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > >> > >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > >> > >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop > >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably > >> the > >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > >> > >> JL > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:07:28 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:07:28 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' Message-ID: A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our Digital Library." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:22:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:22:07 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161804.p7GAqX0Q016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >there must have been at least some speakers for whom "cock" was unisex. But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone eccentrics? I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is always the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all depends on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms were generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, please post. People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., everybody on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word in a unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single meaning: "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: in other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The basic terms are what we're talking about, no? "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And those are what we're talking about. Of course, that's only my opinion. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When I first asked the question whether "cock" might be unisex > for these speakers, it was out of curiosity and without a view as to > what the answer would be. As I think about it further, however, it > seems to me that there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. After all, we know that the term crossed the gender > barrier, and it's hard to see how else that could have happened, even > though the evidence seems to be that, for most speakers, "cock" is > specifically masculine or feminine. The existence of unisex terms such > as "privates" shows that we don't have to reach too far to find terms > for genitalia that do cross the gender line. > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:55 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as > acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I > think most all of us would guess the same. > > "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, > they're > technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the > expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. > > More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent > or > similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and > is > other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) > for > both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. > (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but > will it catch on?) > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > I don't see how we could know. > > > > In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" > in an > > unambiguously hetero context. > > > > > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as > was > > > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, > in > > the > > > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between > male > > and > > > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > > > > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, > which, > > from > > > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, > would, I > > > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague > > euphemisms > > > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") > > > > or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms > like > > "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out > unisex). > > > > > > LH > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John > wrote: > > > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >> ----------------------- > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > > >> Poster: "Baker, John" > > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >> > > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > >> > > >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as > opposed > > >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > > >> > > >> > > >> John Baker > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf > > >> Of Jonathan Lighter > > >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >> > > >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy > song > > >> sung > > >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil > seems to > > >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He > learned > > >> many > > >> songs from his father: > > >> > > >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > > >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > > >> > > >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > > >> > > >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to > Bishop > > >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. > Presumably > > >> the > > >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > > >> > > >> JL > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:22:24 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:22:24 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' In-Reply-To: <201108161807.p7GApMf1016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you search for "tranche of data" you find a lot of use in the UK and Ireland in the past few years. The link you provided is Irish. DanG On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: > > http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ > > "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our Digital > Library." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:27:52 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:27:52 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' In-Reply-To: <201108161822.p7GF6fJN023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But why use an opaque, jargonesque borrowing from the opaque jargon of an unrelated field when a simple word like "bundle" or "package" or "installment" will do? Oh. The question answers itself. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If you search for "tranche of data" you find a lot of use in the UK > and Ireland in the past few years. The link you provided is Irish. > DanG > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: > > > > > http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ > > > > "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our > Digital > > Library." > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:32:03 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:32:03 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' In-Reply-To: <201108161828.p7GF6fMN023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bundle and package are technical terms with other meanings. Tranche is more accurate than installment when data is being sliced but not transmitted. It also has an older history of use to describe portions of data, so it is not strictly a borrowing. DanG On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But why use an opaque, jargonesque borrowing from the opaque jargon of an > unrelated field when a simple word like "bundle" or "package" or > "installment" will do? > > Oh. The question answers itself. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> If you search for "tranche of data" you find a lot of use in the UK >> and Ireland in the past few years. The link you provided is Irish. >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> > Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: >> > >> > >> http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ >> > >> > "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our >> Digital >> > Library." >> > >> > JL >> > >> > -- >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >> truth." >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 16 19:07:38 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:07:38 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > eccentrics? > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is always > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all depends > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms were > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, please > post. > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., everybody > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word in a > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single meaning: > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: in > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The basic > terms are what we're talking about, no? And "genitals", "genitalia", "reproductive organs", etc. don't count because they're scientific/technical, presumably, even if not euphemisms as such. > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. I'm not sure how we could determine that definitively, depending on the perceptions/associations surveyed. > And > those are what we're talking about. Another argument for Jon's position is precisely that very much like "limb", "privates" isn't a basic level category in Rosch's sense (supported by various empirical studies), but a superordinate. Nobody would announce "Ouch, I broke my limb" or "Why did you punch me in the (upper left) limb?" While "Chris kicked Robin in the genitals/privates" would work, it's only for the R- or at least PG13-rated nature of the basic level designations (or because "privates" is more general, precisely what may be needed when one doesn't know exactly which private was affected; "crotch" is sometimes handy for this purpose as well, or sometimes even "crouch", which does rhyme with "ouch"). By the same token, "person", while usefully sex-neutral for various purposes, isn't a basic level category either, which makes it less likely to succeed in various contexts as a replacement for "man"/"woman". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 19:25:34 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:25:34 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those speakers did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" to be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any people who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender line? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" >there must have been at least some speakers for whom "cock" was unisex. But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone eccentrics? I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is always the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all depends on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms were generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, please post. People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., everybody on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word in a unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single meaning: "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: in other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The basic terms are what we're talking about, no? "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And those are what we're talking about. Of course, that's only my opinion. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 19:38:31 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:38:31 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JL is here just (in the classic sense) begging the question. In terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive association," arms and hands and legs and feet are "more similar" in ways that penises and vaginas are not, but in terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" arms and legs are "less similar" in other ways that penises and vaginas are not. Ordinarily, in everyday life we "emotively" have ass our #1 buddies "right-hand men" not "right-footed men," and most of us operate the keyboard in "everyday" life with appendages that are attached to the ends of our arms, not with our feet. Nobody gets athletes hand or charley horse of the arm, only athlete's foot and charley horse of the leg.. Penises and "vaginas" are similar, however, in their "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" with carnal pleasure, urination, and venereal diseases. On Aug 16, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And > those are what we're talking about. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 16 19:49:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:49:02 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > JL is here just (in the classic sense) begging the question. > > In terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive association," arms and hands and legs and feet are "more similar" in ways that penises and vaginas are not, but in terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" arms and legs are "less similar" in other ways that penises and vaginas are not. Ordinarily, in everyday life we "emotively" have ass our #1 buddies "right-hand men" not "right-footed men," and most of us operate the keyboard in "everyday" life with appendages that are attached to the ends of our arms, not with our feet. Nobody gets athletes hand or charley horse of the arm, only athlete's foot and charley horse of the leg.. Penises and "vaginas" are similar, however, in their "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" with carnal pleasure, urination, and venereal diseases. > > Which was one of the points I was trying to make (perhaps too tersely) in my own previous message. But as also mentioned there, the "limb" analogy works to Jon's benefit, not detriment, since that too is a case of moving up one level from the salient basic level to avoid specificity for one of a number of reasons. It's not an accident that "limb" served as a replacement of "leg" in the Victorian era (even for "piano limbs"), or at least in our historical mythography of that era; it's essentially the "privates" of the jointed-appendage field. LH > On Aug 16, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of >> everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And >> those are what we're talking about. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 20:27:50 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:27:50 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161925.p7GIiuf9023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender line? Wow! Argumentum ignoratio! But one explanation might be a distinct etymon. > It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." Sure it is. Because neither "prick" nor "pintle" also meant "vagina' at the same time. But perhaps I misapprehend the argument. And do we know that "prick" was a euphemism rather than a vulgarism? (Not that I'm sure it has any bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word.) OED calls "prick" "coarse slang" but doesn't label "pintle." JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming > that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my > wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those speakers > did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" to > be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested > fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." > > Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any people > who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for its > transmigration across the gender line? > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > eccentrics? > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is > always > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all > depends > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms > were > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, > please > post. > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., > everybody > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word > in a > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single > meaning: > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: > in > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The > basic > terms are what we're talking about, no? > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. > And > those are what we're talking about. > > Of course, that's only my opinion. > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 20:33:45 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:33:45 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a contrary position. On the other hand, the historical record is quite clear. In some dialects of American English, COCK meant 'vagina' and (so it has been reported) 'penis' as well. JL apparently asserts that this could not possibly be true--that nobody could have believed that the term to refer to both. Are you saying that people somewhere in history "began moving up one level from the salient basic level" of COCK = 'penis' to COCK = 'penis+vagina'? I don't see how that supports JL's assertion--it seems to me that it contradicts it, since it REQUIRES that there were people for whom COCK = 'penis+vagina', which JL apparently explicitly denies. Whatever the historical ordering of linguistic change, there is no doubt that, at least as recently as the mid-20th Century, there were people for whom COCK referred to 'vagina'; and there have been serious scholarly reports that, for some of those people, COCK referred to genitalia without regard to the sexual kind of genitalia. The scholarship may be wrong, but a priori arguments that one or another kind of linguistic change "could not have taken place" do not seem to me to hold much promise. My own guess is that COCK = 'penis' came first, that some confusion ensued among people who were not sure just what it referred to, that for some people, COCK came to refer to genitalia in general, while others specialized it for female genitalia, and the latter won out in a few of the generalist communities. But that is just a stands-to-reason guess. A parallel situation perhaps pertains to the verb FUCK. A sentence such as "Chris fucked Pat" (or "Pat fucked for Chris") would mean to some people only that Chris inserted something into Pat. For others, it means no more than "Chris and Pat fucked," i.e., the inserter and the insertee are not entailed by "Chris fucked Pat" (though perhaps still implied, if not entailed, by the rather archaic-sounding "Pat fucked for Chris"). On Aug 16, 2011, at 3:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Which was one of the points I was trying to make (perhaps too tersely) in my own previous message. But as also mentioned there, the "limb" analogy works to Jon's benefit, not detriment, since that too is a case of moving up one level from the salient basic level to avoid specificity for one of a number of reasons. It's not an accident that "limb" served as a replacement of "leg" in the Victorian era (even for "piano limbs"), or at least in our historical mythography of that era; it's essentially the "privates" of the jointed-appendage field. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:17:33 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:17:33 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <201108162034.p7GIRDEN016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I = > understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that = > today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of = > COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are = > allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but = > it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a = > contrary position. > FWIW, "get some _leg_" absolutely = "get some pussy" in BE slang. OTOH, the comparison of a penis to a baby's arm is, IME, strictly literary. And also, FWIW, where necessary, I translate _cock_ into "dick" / "penis" in the same way that I translate, e.g. _yard_ into "dick" / "penis" where necessary. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 21:28:51 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:28:51 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: I don't think this is argumentum ignoratio elenchi (or is there some other argumentum ignoratio you had in mind?). I'm specifically responding to the question, which I raised originally, whether there were people for whom "cock" is a unisex term, so I'm not failing to address the issue in question. I believe it's a valid line of inquiry to proceed from effect ("cock" means the masculine genitalia for some and the feminine genitalia for others) to plausible causes. Jon suggests a possible explanation might be a distinct etymon. That strikes me as unlikely, but of course other examples of confusion from similar but distinct etymons could be cited, so it certainly isn't impossible. There seems to be some uncertainty as to the etymon for cock=genitalia anyway. My point with "prick" and "pintle" was simply that, historically, there were some people for whom "prick" was a euphemism, which supports the possibility that there may have been people for whom "cock" was a euphemism. The classic quotation in the OED is from 1655: "The French men call this fish the Asses-prick, and Dr Wotton termeth it grosly the Pintle fish." I agree with Jon that this has limited bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word; I don't consider it very important whether "cock" was a euphemism or not. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" >But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender line? Wow! Argumentum ignoratio! But one explanation might be a distinct etymon. > It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." Sure it is. Because neither "prick" nor "pintle" also meant "vagina' at the same time. But perhaps I misapprehend the argument. And do we know that "prick" was a euphemism rather than a vulgarism? (Not that I'm sure it has any bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word.) OED calls "prick" "coarse slang" but doesn't label "pintle." JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming > that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my > wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those speakers > did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" to > be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested > fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." > > Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any people > who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for its > transmigration across the gender line? > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > eccentrics? > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is > always > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all > depends > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms > were > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, > please > post. > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., > everybody > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word > in a > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single > meaning: > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: > in > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The > basic > terms are what we're talking about, no? > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. > And > those are what we're talking about. > > Of course, that's only my opinion. > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:29:01 2011 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:29:01 -0500 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <201108162119.p7GIiuPV023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the 80's in Southern California, my mixed bag of friends on the carnival circuit were always offering "to lick your leg" ie whatever sex act was being impulsively thought of at the time. Had nothing to do with legs--or not much. We all used slang from all over the country and picked up whatever was being said locally as well. Darla 2011/8/16 Wilson Gray > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Re: arm:leg =? penis:vagina > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Ronald Butters > wrote: > > Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I = > > understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that = > > today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of > = > > COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are = > > allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but > = > > it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a = > > contrary position. > > > > FWIW, > > "get some _leg_" > > absolutely = > > "get some pussy" > > in BE slang. > > OTOH, the comparison of a penis to a baby's arm is, IME, strictly literary. > > And also, FWIW, where necessary, I translate > > _cock_ > > into > > "dick" / "penis" > > in the same way that I translate, e.g. > > _yard_ > > into > > "dick" / "penis" > > where necessary. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:43:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:43:34 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108161733.p7GF6f6D023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for your response Victor. The original post on this thread included the aphorism "Fashions fade, style is eternal" attributed to Yves Saint Laurent but searching further makes sense. (The punctuation in these aphorisms varies. Sometimes a comma splice is used as noted by Chris.) Another variant attributed to YSL "Fashion passes; style remains" was listed in the first post. The earliest YSL version I have evidence for is dated 1975 and is listed in The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations: Fashions fade, style is eternal. YVES SAINT LAURENT (b. 1916). French couturier. Andy Warhol's Interview (New York, 13 April 1975) I do not know if the interview in Interview was conducted in French or English because I have not seen this cite on paper. In the 1966 novel "Lord Malquist & Mr. Moon" the prominent playwright Tom Stoppard wrote: You see, he understood that substance is ephemeral but style is eternal... which may not be a solution to the realities of life but it is a workable alternative. Garson On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:33 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) > Question about French version > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm certainly with Chris on this one, but I had a different concern. "Style= > " > has multiple glosses even in English and I am not convinced that the French > [likely] original would correspond to the same English word in this context= > . > On the other hand, the version "styles change; style does not" actually > communicates the message rather well. In particular, "last year's fashion" > can be communicated as "last year's style"--both captured rather neatly wit= > h > "mode". But the "style" in the counterpoint is something entirely > different--it's either the sense of a personal style (how one presents > oneself) or the sense of style that a designer projects through all his/her > lines. A French speaker would have to explain whether such distinction even > exists in French, but that distinction may well be the root of the maxim. > > To confirm this suspicion, I typed "fashions fade" instead of "fashion > passes" into the Google search bar. I immediately got a list of suggestions= > , > all variants on "fashions fade, style is eternal"--which is exactly what I > was expecting. If you're going to track down the original quote, you should > certainly consider this version as well. Interestingly, the attribution on > this one is almost universally to Yves Saint Laurent. > > VS-) > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > >> >> Many thanks to Charlie and Chris. >> >> The OED has an entry for "mode" that shows it has been used in English >> with a sense derived from the French word for many years. >> >> mode, n. >> II. In senses derived from French. >> 7. a. A prevailing fashion, custom, practice, or style, esp. one >> characteristic of a particular place or period. >> >> Admittedly, the OED gloss mentions fashion and style, the two words >> that the modern aphorism is attempting to distinguish. >> >> OED citations for mode begin in 1642. Here are the cites in 1884 and 1920= > . >> >> 1884 W. C. Smith Kildrostan 69 We are grown To be a sort of >> dandies in religion, Affecting the last mode. >> 1920 Amer. Woman Aug. 7/1 In the neckwear departments the racks >> are hung . . with madeup collars which attest the prevailing mode. >> >> Chris Waigl wrote: >> > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted >> > all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the >> > help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? >> >> Excellent question. I examined the McCall's interview and was unable >> to determine if it was conducted in French, English, or a mixture. The >> prefatory comments do not indicate the language spoken and do not >> mention a translator. >> >> While answering an interview question Chanel mentioned the Duke of >> Westminster and indicated that she was able to speak some English >> because she did so with him. >> >> (Begin excerpt) >> I was lucky to have known the Duke. Fourteen years. That is a long >> time, no? He was shy and timid, too, but I have never felt more >> protected. He was solid and comfortable. He understood me=E2=80=94except = > for >> my working, of course. He gave me peace. He was generous. He was >> simple. We talked half in English, half in French. "I don't want you >> to learn English," he said, "and discover there is nothing in the >> conversation you hear around us." >> >> The clips I found on YouTube show Chanel speaking only French. The >> clips are from interviews performed in 1969 and 1970. >> >> It is possible that the entire McCall's interview was conducted in >> French and the interviewer Joseph Barry translated the words into >> English. I am not sure. Perhaps Barry was familiar with the English >> word "mode" and thought it would be perfect for the translation. >> >> Alternatively, Coco Chanel presented the aphorism while she was >> speaking English. >> >> Thanks for pointing out "la mode passe, le style reste". I can find >> many instances of this French phrase but oddly none of them appear in >> 1965 or earlier. This may be an artifact of the poor coverage of >> French periodicals in the databases I access. >> >> If someone finds and shares a citation in French or English for this >> saying before 1965 that would be very kind. >> >> Garson >> >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: >> >> >> > On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: >> > >> >> [...] >> >> Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant >> >> phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) >> >> >> >> 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) >> >> 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an >> interview) >> >> 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) >> >> >> >> Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. >> >> >> >> Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview >> >> with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, >> >> Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on >> >> paper) >> > >> > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English >> and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or= > by >> a bilingual interviewer? >> > >> > The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode >> passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Co= > co >> Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) >> repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in = > a >> semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the >> most straightforward translation I can think of. >> > >> > So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular >> interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) >> might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correcti= > on. >> The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an >> intermediary. >> > >> > Chris Waigl >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:51:47 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:51:47 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch Message-ID: Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man switch, dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). The 1974 original of "Taking of Pelham One Two Three" refers to "deadman feature", which is a rig standard on trains and some buses that requires the operator to exert constant pressure or the vehicle would come to a stop. In pop culture--particularly in films involving terrorists or bank robbers with self-strapped bombs--a "dead man's switch" is a lever on a remote detonator that has to be depressed to prevent an immediate detonation (or, occasionally, it is a button that must always be pressed). It's the equivalent of a spring-lever on a hand-grenade--which allows the grenade to be thrown safely once the pin is removed. I am not sure how widespread the term is in the military, but, if it is, it may well have been reverse distribution from pop-culture, which acquired the terminology from public transportation (more specifically, apparently, from electric trains). The OED /does/ have an entry for the train switch, but it's somewhat different. Dead man's handle > In an electric train, a controlling handle which must be held in position > for the current to pass, so that the train is automatically brought to a > standstill should the driver release his grasp through illness or accident. > So dead man's device, dead man's knob, dead man's pedal, dead man's treadle. > Also transf. I suppose, device and feature are interchangeable in their vagueness. But there is still no "switch". There is also "deadman brake", which is what I heard from operators on the MBTA Green Line (the T). The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same year. http://goo.gl/1aOh4 Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English Edition). Volume 22 (9). September 1908 Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By H. Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's switch) so > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle would > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. Volume 22(11). November 1908 Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. Uytborck. p. 1217 > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch (i.e. > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). Note, however, that the authors of /both/ articles were Belgian, which may well be an issue worth investigating (unless earlier instances are found). http://goo.gl/1ZGSF Electric Trains. By Reginald Ernest Dickinson. 1927 [snippet view: title page shows Edward Arnold & Co. 1927] p. 67 > The driver then depressed the Dead Man's Switch with his right hand, which > must remain on the controller handle throughout all driving operations, and > pushes the reverser key to the position marked "forward". p. 68 > ...[Cut]ting off all power to the train the opening of the Dead Man's > Switch has the effect of applying the brakes by the following means. Interestingly, a sentence from p. 62 of this same book is cited in the OED for reverser n. 1.c. (I guess, that confirms the date.) The use diversified very quickly--it could be an ignition switch on a racing motorcycle, fork-lift starter, a shut-off valve on an automatic welder or a fuel system for filling airplanes, a paddle on the steering mechanism of a motor boat, a buoy-releasing mechanism on a submarine, a quick-release switch for switching over from "receive" to "transmit" on a ham radio, etc. A couple of samples: There is a picture and construction plan for a dead man's switch in 1974 Popular Mechanics. (There are similar devices in 1957 Popular Mechanics and Popular Science.) http://goo.gl/ZUVpu Popular Mechanics. May 1974 Backpack paint-removing machine. By Parry C. Yob. p. 154 > The purpose of this dead-man's switch is to provide a safety feature when > you're working from ladders and scaffoldings. It also makes an appearance in the 1970 DOD appropriations hearings (1969) in a description of locator buoy for a submarine. http://goo.gl/YcgWe > The system will release the buoy when ... (3) a dead-man's switch is not > reset by the crew at two hour intervals. The dead-man's switch has an alarm > which warns the crew several minutes before release. The dead-man's switch > ensures release of the buoy should the entire crew become incapacitated. I am not including other GB hits (from 1932 to 1980--more train entries from the 1920s), but there is a total of 94 (with duplicates) of them pre-1980--and that's just for "dead-man's-switch". I ignored the rest, for the moment. But one thing that does not appear is explosives. So the pop-culture terrorist "dead man's switch" appeared much later. Another pair of expressions that is related--in both senses--is "fail-safe" and "fail-deadly". Fail-safe is very common as a noun, and there is a fail-safe entry in the OED, but it's a verb under fail v. 4.b. There is no entry for fail-deadly, which is the equivalent of a doomsday machine (or bomb or device--the expression going back to at least 1606)--"fail-deadly" is old jargon for the Cold War feature of a retaliatory nuclear strike in case that the command structure is wiped out. It was meant as a joke on "fail-safe", which is why it is puzzling that the latter noun has no OED entry. Again, I have not tracked the specific origin or distribution of either expression. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:59:26 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:59:26 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108162143.p7GLRQSj023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, of course! You started with the variant of "fashions fade", but it included the "style remains the same" as counterpoint. And the citation for YSL "eternal" was only from 2011. But this is the version I find more common in pop culture and it would be interesting to track down if this version is ever attributed to anyone else. Either way, the collocation of fashion and style--in this context--seems to be ubiquitously French. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Thanks for your response Victor. The original post on this thread > included the aphorism "Fashions fade, style is eternal" attributed to > Yves Saint Laurent but searching further makes sense. (The punctuation > in these aphorisms varies. Sometimes a comma splice is used as noted > by Chris.) Another variant attributed to YSL "Fashion passes; style > remains" was listed in the first post. > > The earliest YSL version I have evidence for is dated 1975 and is > listed in The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations: > > Fashions fade, style is eternal. > YVES SAINT LAURENT (b. 1916). French couturier. Andy Warhol's > Interview (New York, 13 April 1975) > > I do not know if the interview in Interview was conducted in French or > English because I have not seen this cite on paper. > > > In the 1966 novel "Lord Malquist & Mr. Moon" the prominent playwright > Tom Stoppard wrote: > > You see, he understood that substance is ephemeral but style is > eternal... which may not be a solution to the realities of life but it > is a workable alternative. > > Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Aug 16 22:06:14 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:06:14 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162129.p7GLRQQx023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is a 'unisex' 1867 Doten reference, which was noted on this list a few months ago. <> I think at least one other clearly 'unisex' quotation has appeared on this list, but I can't find it now. No matter how strange it may seem to some of us moderns, it appears that "cock" was 'unisex' for some in the past (wouldn't amaze me if it remains so for somebody somewhere). -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 22:09:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:09:41 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161925.p7GIiuf9023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > I don't actually know that there ever were any people > who had "cock" as a unisex term. � But if not, how do you account for its > transmigration across the gender line? FWIW, IME, _cock_ is the most commonly-used term for all aspects of the female genitalia in BE. E.g., it's the term that used in dirty jokes, not _pussy, ass, (that (good)) stuff, that thing_, etc.. Among black men - among those of us of a certain age, at least - _cunt, cunny, twat, gash, love-glove_, etc. are all literary terms. "Transmigration across the gender line" may have occurred. But, for the first quarter-century or so of my life, I had no idea that _cock_ could possibly mean "penis." Words like _joint, rod, bone, (the very rare) magivny-giver_, and others that'll come to mind as soon as I press Send, are used for "penis," but _cock_ never is. Like using "Jesus (Christ)!" or "Son of a bitch!" as exclamations, using _cock_ to mean "penis" would say to the hearer, "I spend a lot of time *socially* in the company of white people. It's not the case that I merely *see* them in class, on the team, or at work." Of course, that's not as rare today as it was in the '40's to the early '70's. But it's still quite extraordinary. IAC, using _cock_ to mean "penis" feels to me the same as using, e.g., the Russian word _khui_ in that meaning. It's foreign. _Cock_ isn't unisex by any stretch of the imagination. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Aug 16 22:12:47 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:12:47 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <201108162129.p7GLRQR3023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/16/2011 5:29 PM, Darla Wells wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Darla Wells > Subject: Re: arm:leg =? penis:vagina > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the 80's in Southern California, my mixed bag of friends on the carnival > circuit were always offering "to lick your leg" ie whatever sex act was > being impulsively thought of at the time. -- I used to hear this sort of thing occasionally from young men/boys in the 1960's. IIRC the usual application was along the lines of "Let me lick your leg" (meaning roughly "I find you attractive") or "I want to lick her leg" (meaning roughly "I find her attractive"). I think it was generally light/humorous, and I don't know exactly what "leg" meant (if anything) although there are the obvious possibilities. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 22:14:06 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:14:06 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162207.p7GKaeTO016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. I won't mention that it's in HDAS I, though not defined as unisex. It illustrates the female nuance. The circuits are obviously burning out. Trust no one. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is a 'unisex' 1867 Doten reference, which was noted on this list a > few months ago. > > < bully.>> > > I think at least one other clearly 'unisex' quotation has appeared on > this list, but I can't find it now. > > No matter how strange it may seem to some of us moderns, it appears that > "cock" was 'unisex' for some in the past (wouldn't amaze me if it > remains so for somebody somewhere). > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 22:37:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:37:02 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I really got a laugh out of this find because it is almost diametrically opposite from the fashion quotes: http://goo.gl/m8lU4 Roman life in Pliny's time. By Maurice Pellisson. 1897 p. 75 > It is indeed always the same story; beggars of Athens, beggars of Rome, > beggars of Paris--forlorn always, in all countries, your hovels have no > history. The houses where people die of cold are all built in the same > fashion and their style is eternal. Would anyone be surprised if I said that this book is a translation from French? It is. Here's another interesting early variant--that predates both Coco and YSL! I don't know what caused this, but I spontaneously replaced "is eternal" with "endures" in the Google search string. The results were shocking. http://goo.gl/R35VM The Ohio Architect, Engineer and Builder. Volume 18(1). July 1911 [The talk took place in Spokane on June 5, 1911.] No American Architecture. Archibald G. Rigg Tells Spokane, Wash., Architectural Club that the Name Is a Misnomer. p. 11/2 > > Of the many things entering into the different architectural styles, the > influence of individuals has counted least. One generation of builders has > taken up the work where its predecessor stopped. The fashions of > architecture perish ; style endures. Rigg's talk was published nearly in full. http://goo.gl/QWfcV Architect and Engineer. Volume 25(3). July 1911 p. 61 I was looking for a French connection here too, but did not find one. And it did not originate with Rigg!!! http://goo.gl/j7G21 American Renaissance: A Review of Domestic Architecture. By Joy Wheeler Dow. 1904 > The fashions of architecture—they perish. Style endures. American Home (vol. 2?) from 1929 (verified internally, but not on paper) gives a preview, but with a blank snipped: http://goo.gl/7U27P > Fads come and go. Style endures. Another snippet from supposedly 1949. http://goo.gl/bn0Bh You and Your Personality: A Guide to Effective Living. By Esther Eberstadt Brooke. 1949 [The date is on the copyright page, but the snippet does not correspond to preview text.] > Do justice to your good points and don't penalize your bad ones by calling > attention to them with clothes that are not for such as you. Choose — and > stick to— the style that is yours. Fashions are fleeting, but style > endures. Now, this one is more interesting as it certainly a book that might have been seen by Coco Chanel. Another one is attributed to Stanley Morrison (1976): "It proves merely that fashion is not only fickle but freakish, whereas great style endures without interruption." VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 23:20:19 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:20:19 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162214.p7GIRDOR016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But wait! One ex. doesn't make a speech community. Perhaps Doten used the word one way and his sweetie used it in the other. Thus the seeming unisex "meaning" would simply be for the nonce. Just a hypothesis. But the real test is this: if Doten's usage really was typical of him, presumably it reflected that also hypothetical speech community where the usage really was ordinarily unisex. If that's the case, where are their descendants? Do any of us naturally and ordinarily use the word in a unisex way? (Even better: who uses unisex "cock" but then uses other words to specify which sort?) I didn't catch the unisex potential of the Doten ex. when I found it 15 or 20 years ago because the concept was unthinkable. To me. As a representative of a speech community. At any rate: where are the people with unselfconscious unisex usage and, equally to the point, how many are there and, if any, how many of them are over, say, thirty? Dissertation topic anyone? JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, Doug. > > I won't mention that it's in HDAS I, though not defined as unisex. It > illustrates the female nuance. > > The circuits are obviously burning out. Trust no one. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > There is a 'unisex' 1867 Doten reference, which was noted on this list a > > few months ago. > > > > < > bully.>> > > > > I think at least one other clearly 'unisex' quotation has appeared on > > this list, but I can't find it now. > > > > No matter how strange it may seem to some of us moderns, it appears that > > "cock" was 'unisex' for some in the past (wouldn't amaze me if it > > remains so for somebody somewhere). > > > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 16 23:41:53 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:41:53 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various combinations.) Joel At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of >course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man switch, >dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). > >... > >The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both >knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same >year. > >http://goo.gl/1aOh4 >Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English >Edition). >Volume 22 (9). September 1908 >Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By H. >Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > > > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's switch) so > > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle would > > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. > >Volume 22(11). November 1908 >Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. >Uytborck. p. 1217 > > > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague > > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch (i.e. > > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). >... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 17 00:58:31 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 20:58:31 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162320.p7GLRQdF023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/16/2011 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Cock" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But wait! > > One ex. doesn't make a speech community. Perhaps Doten used the word one > way and his sweetie used it in the other. Thus the seeming unisex "meaning" > would simply be for the nonce. -- But here's another example, from this list: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1102B&L=ADS-L&D=0&1=ADS-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4&P=46462 <> -- > If that's the case, where are their descendants? .... -- I haven't met any such users of unisex "cock" AFAIK. But that's not to say there are surely none. Some may find unisex "cock" a priori intuitively unlikely, and I find it so myself. Still, there is some indication that it exists/existed. It may be that here-and-now intuitions apply imperfectly to other milieux. In particular, I would expect little standardization of informal words which are very seldom uttered, and maybe in some times and places and social circles sex organs were not an everyday subject of casual conversation. For comparison, here is a reported case of "chinchin" (generally = "penis") recommended as a term for "vagina" by Japanese education authorities: http://www.wowasis.com/travelblog/?p=2911 ... although I'm not 100% sure the source is 100% impeccable .... -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 17 01:05:35 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:05:35 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <4401372B-C662-4BC1-9812-D4730A1D56C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a contrary position. Setting the record straight: My argument supported Jon's because my point did not in fact touch on the question of whether COCK itself might have unisex uses, but on Jon's separate (but related) argument that the words we might think of as unisex terms for genitalia tend to be either euphemisms (like "privates") or technical (like "genitalia") and not everyday colloquial terms. The analogy (as in the subject line above) was then made to "limb", and my point (drawing on Rosch's cognitive psychological framework) was that in both the case of "privates" and the case of "limb" we're dealing not just with euphemisms but with superordinate rather than basic level terms. I wasn't referring to the history of COCK per se on this, although the Doten feeling-of-each-other's-cocks passage (which I'd also forgotten, even though I've cited it in two papers) would support your position on COCK straddling the gender line for some, as well as crossing it in one direction or the other diachronically. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 01:47:55 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:47:55 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108162342.p7GLRQfT023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, we know it wasn't Casey Jones, who had his fatal accident in 1900, after the Illinois Central had moved the main line to NOLA from Jackson to Memphis, although Jones did a lot of his railroading around Jackson. Mainly freight, though. DanG On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: dead man's switch > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: > > "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely > to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a > freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about > three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." > > The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for > $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection > here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the > paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. > > The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; > Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not > evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch > something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. > > (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various > combinations.) > > Joel > > At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >>Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of >>course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man switch, >>dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). >> >>... >> >>The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both >>knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same >>year. >> >>http://goo.gl/1aOh4 >>Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English >>Edition). >>Volume 22 (9). September 1908 >>Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By H. >>Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 >> >> > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's switch) so >> > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle would >> > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. >> >>Volume 22(11). November 1908 >>Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. >>Uytborck. p. 1217 >> >> > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague >> > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch (i.e. >> > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). >>... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Aug 17 02:19:05 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 22:19:05 -0400 Subject: Because X Message-ID: A construction I've noticed in the last year or two, and don't recall having seen discussed here, is in the form Because X, where X is a noun rather than the longer phrase you would expect to see. The implication is that the mere mention of X is sufficient for a compelling argument. Sometimes Because and X are separated by "you know." Here's an example from a recent webcomic strip, Something Positive, http://somethingpositive.net/sp08122011.shtml: Donna: Vanessa, can I talk to you? Vanessa: Depends. Do I have to stop eating cookies? Cuz, y'know, cookies. Unfortunately, "because" is a sufficiently common word that it isn't easy to search for the construction. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 02:51:15 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 02:51:15 +0000 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162129.p7GLRQQx023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Makes me think of "Ye Olde Cock Tavern" in London where Dr Johnson put together the first English dictionary. It used to be called "Ye Cock and Bottle". I wonder if cock meant the same things? Sent 2nd time. Don't know what happened to the first. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:28:51 -0400 > From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM > Subject: Re: "Cock" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't think this is argumentum ignoratio elenchi (or is there > some other argumentum ignoratio you had in mind?). I'm specifically > responding to the question, which I raised originally, whether there > were people for whom "cock" is a unisex term, so I'm not failing to > address the issue in question. I believe it's a valid line of inquiry > to proceed from effect ("cock" means the masculine genitalia for some > and the feminine genitalia for others) to plausible causes. > > Jon suggests a possible explanation might be a distinct etymon. > That strikes me as unlikely, but of course other examples of confusion > from similar but distinct etymons could be cited, so it certainly isn't > impossible. There seems to be some uncertainty as to the etymon for > cock=genitalia anyway. > > My point with "prick" and "pintle" was simply that, > historically, there were some people for whom "prick" was a euphemism, > which supports the possibility that there may have been people for whom > "cock" was a euphemism. The classic quotation in the OED is from 1655: > "The French men call this fish the Asses-prick, and Dr Wotton termeth it > grosly the Pintle fish." I agree with Jon that this has limited bearing > on the issue of a unisex c-word; I don't consider it very important > whether "cock" was a euphemism or not. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:28 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender > line? > > Wow! Argumentum ignoratio! > > But one explanation might be a distinct etymon. > > > It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" > was > once a euphemism for "pintle." > > Sure it is. Because neither "prick" nor "pintle" also meant "vagina' at > the > same time. But perhaps I misapprehend the argument. > > And do we know that "prick" was a euphemism rather than a vulgarism? > (Not > that I'm sure it has any bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word.) OED > calls > "prick" "coarse slang" but doesn't label "pintle." > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Baker, John" > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming > > that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my > > wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those > speakers > > did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" > to > > be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested > > fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." > > > > Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any > people > > who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for > its > > transmigration across the gender line? > > > > > > John Baker > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf > > Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > >there must have been at least some speakers for whom > > "cock" was unisex. > > > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > > eccentrics? > > > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is > > always > > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all > > depends > > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms > > were > > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of > a > > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, > > please > > post. > > > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., > > everybody > > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the > word > > in a > > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single > > meaning: > > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: > > in > > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The > > basic > > terms are what we're talking about, no? > > > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms > of > > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and > vaginas. > > And > > those are what we're talking about. > > > > Of course, that's only my opinion. > > > > JL > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 03:24:32 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:24:32 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108162342.p7GLRQfT023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Could be either a track switch or a switchback (like a road going up a mountain). And all early cites involve "electric trains" of which this is not one (Illinois? Mississippi? no). So it is indeed intriguing, but does not appear to be related. Of course, we'll let Jesse & Co decide. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: > > "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely > to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a > freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about > three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." > > The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for > $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection > here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the > paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. > > The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; > Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not > evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch > something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. > > (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various > combinations.) > > Joel > > At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of > >course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man > switch, > >dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). > > > >... > > > >The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes > both > >knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same > >year. > > > >http://goo.gl/1aOh4 > >Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English > >Edition). > >Volume 22 (9). September 1908 > >Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By > H. > >Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > > > > > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's > switch) so > > > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle > would > > > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. > > > >Volume 22(11). November 1908 > >Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. > >Uytborck. p. 1217 > > > > > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague > > > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch > (i.e. > > > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). > >... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 05:50:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 01:50:02 -0400 Subject: swear word Message-ID: >From one of the Christmas episodes of The Vicar of Dibley (still being rerun on PBS): Choir leader: Why is Jesus special? Boy: His name is a swear word? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 07:14:55 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:14:55 -0700 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) Message-ID: Not in the online OED, the earliest citation on Google Books is from 1985, but it seems questionable. Two more definite citations for the stuffed roll are 1990 and 1992. The Internet does not seem to have a citation until 2001. My spelling is not even listed on the Wikipedia entry, which under "baozi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baozi) lists "bao, bau, humbow, nunu, bausak, pow or pau" as alternatives to "baozi." I cannot find the Chinese characters for humbao, though "bao" is almost certainly 包. GOOGLE BOOKS 1. Humbao - 1985 "Northwest best places: restaurants, lodgings, and tourism in Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia," by David Brewster, Sasquatch Books, page 512 (http://ow.ly/6597L) ---- Peter Swei learned his trade at the hands of his father, a Tokyo restaurateur, and has brought which him recipes for Humbao chicke, sweet and sour pork, and... ---- "Humbao chicken"? Tokyo restaurateur? Is this a misprint for kung pao chicken? 2. hum bao - 1990 "Portland best places: a discriminating guide to Portland's restaurants, lodgings, shopping, nightlife, arts, sights, outings, and annual events," by Stephanie Irving, page 311 (http://ow.ly/6590H) Citation from http://ow.ly/6591m ----- Complement that with hum bao, pot-stickers, or steamed pork pastries, and add a side of fiery kimchi, and lunch takes on bountiful and flavorful dimensions rarely seen in America. ----- 3. humbao - 1992 "Portland Best Places: A Discriminating Guide to Portland's Restaurants, Lodgings, Shopping, Nightlife, Arts, Sights, and Outing," Stephanie Irving, Kim Carlson, page 21 (http://ow.ly/6592I) Citation from http://ow.ly/6593o ----- Of the side dishes, try the humbao, and wander around the corner the sushi rolls aren't bad, either. ----- GOOGLE 4. hum bao - February 1, 2002 http://www.gotowardsdelight.org/recipes/index.html ----- Vegetarian Sausage Buns (kind of like hum bao, but not really) ----- 5. humbao - 2001 http://www.asianamericanfilm.com/archives/000743.html ----- Name: Rabyang Thonden Gyalkhang E-mail: rabyang at yahoo.com Web Page: realitydreamfilms Wow Lily, your 2 mint. was great to watch I really liked it. My short film "Legends of HumBao" will be soon on the web and hope you and others will enjoy this too. Right now the web site is still under construction hope to finish it by Aripl 20th. 04/10/01 23:31 ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 11:22:41 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:22:41 -0400 Subject: Because X In-Reply-To: <201108170219.p7GLRQtn023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've heard this and even used it - humorously only, I hasten to add, in imitation of the teenage-and-under types who do use it. Just when or why I started I can't say, but it hasn't been more than five years or so, possibly less. "The Simpsons" is a conceivable source, but that's only a guess. The construction may never have appeared on "The Simpsons". Until John pointed it out, I'd never even thought of it as a "construction": more of a rhetorical device, rather. To me, "y'know" is probably mandatory. It signals the hilarious inarticulateness of what follows. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Because X > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A construction I've noticed in the last year or two, and don't recall = > having seen discussed here, is in the form Because X, where X is a noun = > rather than the longer phrase you would expect to see. The implication = > is that the mere mention of X is sufficient for a compelling argument. = > Sometimes Because and X are separated by "you know." Here's an example = > from a recent webcomic strip, Something Positive, = > http://somethingpositive.net/sp08122011.shtml: > =20 > Donna: Vanessa, can I talk to you? > =20 > Vanessa: Depends. Do I have to stop eating cookies? Cuz, y'know, = > cookies. > =20 > =20 > Unfortunately, "because" is a sufficiently common word that it isn't = > easy to search for the construction. > =20 > =20 > John Baker > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 11:26:01 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:26:01 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108170324.p7GIRDdd016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Let's not forget the Russian "Dead Hand" system. Oh. You haven't heard.... But there's nothing to worry about. They say it's turned off most of the time. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:24 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: dead man's switch > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Could be either a track switch or a switchback (like a road going up a > mountain). And all early cites involve "electric trains" of which this is > not one (Illinois? Mississippi? no). So it is indeed intriguing, but does > not appear to be related. Of course, we'll let Jesse & Co decide. > > VS-) > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: > > > > "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely > > to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a > > freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about > > three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." > > > > The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for > > $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection > > here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the > > paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. > > > > The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; > > Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > > > Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not > > evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch > > something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. > > > > (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various > > combinations.) > > > > Joel > > > > At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > >Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, > of > > >course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man > > switch, > > >dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). > > > > > >... > > > > > >The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes > > both > > >knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the > same > > >year. > > > > > >http://goo.gl/1aOh4 > > >Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English > > >Edition). > > >Volume 22 (9). September 1908 > > >Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By > > H. > > >Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > > > > > > > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's > > switch) so > > > > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle > > would > > > > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. > > > > > >Volume 22(11). November 1908 > > >Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. > > >Uytborck. p. 1217 > > > > > > > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the > "Sprague > > > > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch > > (i.e. > > > > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). > > >... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 11:38:30 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:38:30 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108170059.p7GLRQlV023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We could be approaching the dreaded "angels on a pin" stage of discussion here. The linguistically (rather than psychologically) significant issue isn't whether anyone anywhere uses or used words in this way, it's whether any speech community or statistically significant number of people does. I'll grant that it seems unlikely that Doten, perhaps the only 19th C. American to use blunt sexual terms frequently in a diary that both survived and been published, was also coincidentally an atypical user of "cock" for his place and time. OTOH, the same, um, "bent" that led him to write the stuff might have contributed to the eccentricity of a single example. I don't know if the word appears elsewhere in his diaries. Nor if it appears anywhere in the zillion volumes of _My Secret Life_, the author of which seems like a perfect candidate to have at least, um, dabbled in unisex usage, at least once or twice. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 8:58 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 8/16/2011 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > But wait! > > > > One ex. doesn't make a speech community. Perhaps Doten used the word one > > way and his sweetie used it in the other. Thus the seeming unisex > "meaning" > > would simply be for the nonce. > -- > > But here's another example, from this list: > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1102B&L=ADS-L&D=0&1=ADS-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4&P=46462 > > <> > > -- > > If that's the case, where are their descendants? .... > -- > > I haven't met any such users of unisex "cock" AFAIK. But that's not to > say there are surely none. > > Some may find unisex "cock" a priori intuitively unlikely, and I find it > so myself. Still, there is some indication that it exists/existed. It > may be that here-and-now intuitions apply imperfectly to other milieux. > In particular, I would expect little standardization of informal words > which are very seldom uttered, and maybe in some times and places and > social circles sex organs were not an everyday subject of casual > conversation. > > For comparison, here is a reported case of "chinchin" (generally = > "penis") recommended as a term for "vagina" by Japanese education > authorities: > > http://www.wowasis.com/travelblog/?p=2911 > > ... although I'm not 100% sure the source is 100% impeccable .... > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 13:39:21 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:39:21 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108162237.p7GKaeUq016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor, thank you very much for sharing those great finds. Here is a version of the maxim applied to clothes in 1932 (probably). Cite: 1932, Good Looks for Girls by Hazel Rawson Cades, GB Page 156, Harcourt, Brace and Company. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on paper) Fashions change from year to year, season to season, day to day — but good style really goes on forever. http://books.google.com/books?id=KATPAAAAMAAJ&q=+forever#search_anchor On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) > Question about French version > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I really got a laugh out of this find because it is almost diametrically > opposite from the fashion quotes: > > http://goo.gl/m8lU4 > Roman life in Pliny's time. By Maurice Pellisson. 1897 > p. 75 > >> It is indeed always the same story; beggars of Athens, beggars of Rome, >> beggars of Paris--forlorn always, in all countries, your hovels have no >> history. The houses where people die of cold are all built in the same >> fashion and their style is eternal. > > > > Would anyone be surprised if I said that this book is a translation from > French? It is. > > > Here's another interesting early variant--that predates both Coco and YSL! = > I > don't know what caused this, but I spontaneously replaced "is eternal" with > "endures" in the Google search string. The results were shocking. > > http://goo.gl/R35VM > The Ohio Architect, Engineer and Builder. Volume 18(1). July 1911 [The talk > took place in Spokane on June 5, 1911.] > No American Architecture. Archibald G. Rigg Tells Spokane, Wash., > Architectural Club that the Name Is a Misnomer. p. 11/2 >> >> Of the many things entering into the different architectural styles, the >> influence of individuals has counted least. One generation of builders ha= > s >> taken up the work where its predecessor stopped. The fashions of >> architecture perish ; style endures. > > > Rigg's talk was published nearly in full. > > http://goo.gl/QWfcV > Architect and Engineer. Volume 25(3). July 1911 > p. 61 > > I was looking for a French connection here too, but did not find one. And i= > t > did not originate with Rigg!!! > > http://goo.gl/j7G21 > American Renaissance: A Review of Domestic Architecture. By Joy Wheeler Dow= > . > 1904 > >> The fashions of architecture=97they perish. Style endures. > > > > American Home (vol. 2?) from 1929 (verified internally, but not on paper) > gives a preview, but with a blank snipped: > > http://goo.gl/7U27P > >> Fads come and go. Style endures. > > > Another snippet from supposedly 1949. > > http://goo.gl/bn0Bh > You and Your Personality: A Guide to Effective Living. By Esther Eberstadt > Brooke. 1949 [The date is on the copyright page, but the snippet does not > correspond to preview text.] > >> Do justice to your good points and don't penalize your bad ones by callin= > g >> attention to them with clothes that are not for such as you. Choose =97 a= > nd >> stick to=97 the style that is yours. Fashions are fleeting, but style >> endures. > > > Now, this one is more interesting as it certainly a book that might have > been seen by Coco Chanel. > > Another one is attributed to Stanley Morrison (1976): "It proves merely tha= > t > fashion is not only fickle but freakish, whereas great style endures withou= > t > interruption." > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 19:00:28 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:00:28 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack Message-ID: For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having a stimulating taste or flavor." I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. "Let's go by Mee Sum Bakery and get a snack to go…" seems plausible though a little odd. But at least egg custards don't fall into the category of "savoury." I think there are other non-savory dim sum dishes as well. (The noun definition does not apply at all AFAIK: "A savoury dish (see A. 3); spec. a cooked dish, flavoured with appetizing ingredients, served at the beginning or end of a dinner as a stimulant to appetite and digestion.") No entry for "yum cha." Will look at that later... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 17 19:35:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:35:56 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." > > For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: > > adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having a stimulating taste or flavor." > > I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that can work—each dish (or double-dish for the fancy ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 19:44:42 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:44:42 -0400 Subject: "I deleted a sentence _on accident_." [NT] Message-ID: IME -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From vocabula at AOL.COM Wed Aug 17 19:55:19 2011 From: vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Fiske) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:55:19 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CUNY Graduate School of Journalism has bought a Vocabula Review site license. Don't be left out; ask your library to buy a Vocabula site license: http://www.vocabula.com/popupads/VRsitelicenses.asp Robert Hartwell Fiske The Vocabula Review COMING IN NOVEMBER 2011 FROM SIMON & SCHUSTER Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English A Compendium of Mistakes in Grammar, Usage, and Spelling with Commentary on Lexicographers and Linguists ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Aug 17 20:05:17 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:05:17 -0400 Subject: Vocabula Spam In-Reply-To: A<8CE2B2EBA010788-2138-229A8@webmail-d155.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think I speak for almost all of us when I say that I don't think this kind of post is O.K. If Mr. Fiske wants to let us know the contents of the latest Vocabula issue, that's fine. If Vocabula receives a favorable review from an independent source and he wants to alert us to that fact, I do not object. Posts like those add something to the discussion, however limited and sales-oriented the contribution may be. But a post like the one below is nothing but a sales pitch and is free of independent content. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Fiske Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 3:55 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: CUNY Graduate School of Journalism has bought a Vocabula Review site license. Don't be left out; ask your library to buy a Vocabula site license: http://www.vocabula.com/popupads/VRsitelicenses.asp Robert Hartwell Fiske The Vocabula Review COMING IN NOVEMBER 2011 FROM SIMON & SCHUSTER Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English A Compendium of Mistakes in Grammar, Usage, and Spelling with Commentary on Lexicographers and Linguists ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 20:06:38 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 13:06:38 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108171936.p7HJ7p3n015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >> >> For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >> >> adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having a stimulating taste or flavor." >> >> I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. > > But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that can work˜each dish (or double-dish for the fancy ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. > Clever maths, there :) It's clunky and misleading. No such definition is placed on "corn dogs," which seem to be pretty much a carnival/mid-afternoon snack even if some people (perhaps) eat them as the primary component of a meal. Do people primarily eat dim sum as snacks to go? I definitely recall a place in San Francisco (the Irving Street Chinatown) that seemed to cater a great deal to the to go snacky crowd, but AFAIK, people generally eat dim sum as a meal. But even putting that aside, there's still the problem of them being savory. I've never understood the exact meaning of this term (since it's not used much in the US), but I don't think dishes generally eaten after the main dim sum meal such as egg custard qualify as being savory. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 20:07:35 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 13:07:35 -0700 Subject: "I deleted a sentence _on accident_." [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108171945.p7HGeYOu011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think this has been covered here before, no? I say this without a second thought. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 17, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > IME ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 20:45:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:45:42 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" Message-ID: Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." would have been much realer. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 20:55:13 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:55:13 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? Message-ID: Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said in July 2009 to Parliament: "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't connote "event" -- anyway.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:06:31 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:06:31 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead Message-ID: My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken offline. Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to reach the Google News Archive today: http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ Here is a tweet about the dead link: @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:33:58 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:33:58 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172055.p7HKtHST031534@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." Sent from my iPad On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Aug 17 21:13:02 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:13:02 -0500 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108172106.p7HJ7p8N015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I had seen several notes to this effect. I'm still able to search it. Put a term into the Google search window. Search When results come back, hit the NEWS tab at the top. When the News results come back, hit the "Archives" link down the left side of the page. This is how I've always done it, and it still seems to work. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 4:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken > offline. > > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to > reach the Google News Archive today: > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ > > Here is a tweet about the dead link: > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:13:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:13:07 -0400 Subject: OT: "Dirty" pictures referendum on W:pedia [NT] Message-ID: Sheer assholery! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 21:24:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:24:46 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 03:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury > Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." > > > > For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: > > > > adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to > sweet, as the epithet of articles of food > having a stimulating taste or flavor." > > > > I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as > a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. > >But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of >savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that >can work—each dish (or double-dish for the fancy >ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. Or I think often three (items) to a dish. (Isn't three a lucky number?) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Aug 17 21:21:04 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:21:04 -0400 Subject: another "could(n't) care less" variation In-Reply-To: <201004100340.o39JlY1Z001969@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 9:57 AM +0800 4/10/10, Randy Alexander wrote: > >On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > >> Thanks for the datum, from someone who's been both a hasher and > >> rehasher. I've argued in print that squatitives ("He knows/doesn't > >> know (diddly-)squat about it") are analogous to "could(n't) care > >> less". And I like to cite "(not) to give two shits" to demonstrate > >> that squatitives don't require minimal quantities. > > > >But wouldn't you argue that they require non-multal quantities? I couldn't > >imagine anyone saying they (don't) give 75 shits about something. > > Yeah, I think even three shits is (at least) one too many to give. I was reminded of this old thread upon reading The Entire Facebook Terms of Service in Bro Speak": http://slacktory.com/2011/08/entire-facebook-terms-of-service-in-bro-speak/ "We give lots of fucks about your privacy, so we wrote this." (I was wary of googling "give|gives|giving lots of fucks", but the results are mostly SFW.) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 21:36:10 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:36:10 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 03:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." > >For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: > >adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having >a stimulating taste or flavor." > >I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a >"snack," but I suppose you can look at it that >way. "Let's go by Mee Sum Bakery and get a snack >to go " seems plausible though a little odd. Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). >But at least egg custards don't fall into the >category of "savoury." I think there are other >non-savory dim sum dishes as well. I think so too -- e.g., the red bean pastries. I too don't think of these as "savoury". >(The noun definition does not apply at all >AFAIK: "A savoury dish (see A. 3); spec. a >cooked dish, flavoured with appetizing >ingredients, served at the beginning or end of a >dinner as a stimulant to appetite and digestion.") Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:50:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:50:38 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108172106.p7HHMXdL022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I just tried it. No problems. JL On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken > offline. > > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to > reach the Google News Archive today: > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ > > Here is a tweet about the dead link: > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 21:51:54 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:51:54 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <7303878E-788D-4A42-8DDF-8F65CACC3ACA@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 05:33 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's >consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say >"and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." Well, not quite the same. My "not" for "nor" is a Fingerfehler (adjacent keys), whereas "and nor" (or even "and not") takes intention -- or inattention. As also is my "too" for "took" a Fingerfehler (of omission -- and inattention -- rather than commission). If your response is essentially "no, there is no such community of speakers", I wish you had said so. Joel >Sent from my iPad > >On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Jim.Walker at UNIV-LYON2.FR Wed Aug 17 21:59:16 2011 From: Jim.Walker at UNIV-LYON2.FR (Jim WALKER) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:59:16 +0200 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172110.p7HGeYUq011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dear All In my capacity as lurker and Brit, I beg to differ. First "and nor" sounds fine to me (and therefore, by extrapolation, must sound fine to every other speaker of British English...). Note that your proposed "and/or" would not be grammatical here, anyway. Second, "incidences" here is also fine. Can you not have "several incidences of X" where you speak from? Best Jim Walker Université Lumière Lyon 2 > > This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 17 22:00:26 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:00:26 -0700 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172110.p7HGeYUq011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted >> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said >> in July 2009 to Parliament: >> >> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have >> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... >> >> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? >> >> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... you should probably vote for british. from my files: Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 >Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.< http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html He did not consider it appropriate for society to be run by or for ‘merchants and manufacturers’, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd picked up an arabic version and nor did your distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage [thousands more – 3/1/08] (somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys (emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative supplement to the main clause; the combination drives things home. it does seem to the british, but i see no reason to treat it as an inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 22:12:05 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:12:05 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172124.p7HJ7p8x015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Re: Dim sum =? savory snack > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 03:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>> For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >> Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >>> >>> For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >>> >>> adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >> sweet, as the epithet of articles of food >> having a stimulating taste or flavor." >>> >>> I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as >> a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. >> >> But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of >> savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that >> can work˜each dish (or double-dish for the fancy >> ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. > > Or I think often three (items) to a dish. (Isn't three a lucky number?) That's another interesting property, though it doesn't always hold. Gai lan is just piled on the plate, and the custards we had came four to a plate (I think I've usually seen three to a plate in the past, FWIW). Still, "served on a small plate" might be a requisite part of the definition of dim sum. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 17 22:12:35 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:12:35 -0700 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172200.p7HJ7pBJ015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> >> This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." >> >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: >> >>> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted >>> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said >>> in July 2009 to Parliament: >>> >>> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have >>> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... >>> >>> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? >>> >>> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... > > you should probably vote for british. from my files: > > Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 >> Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.< > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html > > He did not consider it appropriate for society to be run by or for merchants and manufacturers‚, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... > www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ > > Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd picked up an arabic version and nor did your distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. > www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage > > [thousands more ˆ 3/1/08] > > (somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys (emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative supplement to the main clause; the combination drives things home. it does seem to be british, but i see no reason to treat it as an inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). expanding on this some, here are two "but nor" examples" GKP in e-mail 3/4/08: I'm doing a piece on John McIntyre, who shouldn't think I hate his guts. But nor, of course, should he think that he has his grammar entirely right. John Darnton, “The Hollow Man”, NYT 4/30/08, p. A23: Mr. Mugabe sat behind a large, uncluttered wooden desk. He did not stand to greet me but nor did he hesitate to shake my hand. what we see in both the "and nor" and the "but nor" examples is "nor" on the way to reanalysis as as an adverbial conveying 'on the other hand'. maybe it's not your variety of English, but it's not an inadvertent error and it's not crazy. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 22:17:33 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:17:33 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172136.p7HJ7p9d015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 03:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >> Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >> >> For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >> >> adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >> sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having >> a stimulating taste or flavor." >> >> I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a >> "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that >> way. "Let's go by Mee Sum Bakery and get a snack >> to go∑" seems plausible though a little odd. > > Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I > don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of > food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light > or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum > dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). Maybe it's because I haven't been a kid or been around kids for so long, but the word "snack" just doesn't come to mind other than as "snack food." If you were to run by the local burger joint and pick up some fries, would you say "I had a snack"? Okay, probably so. Nevertheless, is the food orientation (LOL) of dim sum snacky? It's always great when someone brings some chasiu bao or siumai to share, but I associate it primarily with lunch. So it's like bringing French fries to the office. Yeah, people snack on them, but French fries don't strike me as a snacky food, per se. They are a food that can be eaten as a snack, but being a snack is not part of their definition. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 22:31:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:31:06 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Arnold. You've told me there is a community, and where it is (not local to me). (I was being slightly facetious in referring to "and nor" and "incidence" as foot-in-mouth, since I had a suspicion that "incidence" was British usage. And foot-in-mouth -- er, "-and-" -- disease was seriously present in the UK only a few years ago. Not to mention among politicians.) Joel At 8/17/2011 06:00 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > > > > This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or > pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most > likely he actually said (or meant to) say > "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." > > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > >> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > >> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > >> in July 2009 to Parliament: > >> > >> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > >> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... > >> > >> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? > >> > >> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... > >you should probably vote for british. from my files: > >Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m >people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 > >Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken > by 40 million people worldwide, does not work > and nor do similar drugs in the same class, > according to a major review released today.< > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html > >He did not consider it appropriate for society >to be run by or for ‘merchants and >manufacturers’, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... >www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ > >Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd >picked up an arabic version and nor did your >distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. >www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage > >[thousands more ­ 3/1/08] > >(somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) >this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys >(emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative >supplement to the main clause; the combination >drives things home. it does seem to the >british, but i see no reason to treat it as an >inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 22:44:16 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:44:16 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <050E690D-7524-4EDA-A850-CB4D8BFC6A69@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 06:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I > > don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of > > food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light > > or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum > > dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). > >Maybe it's because I haven't been a kid or been around kids for so >long, but the word "snack" just doesn't come to mind other than as >"snack food." If you were to run by the local burger joint and pick >up some fries, would you say "I had a snack"? Okay, probably so. I haven't been a kid for a while either, but "snack" to me did not always mean take-out -- it was sometimes what I had when I came home from school and other times what I picked up (and took out, and ate) on my way home, so my mother didn't know. >Nevertheless, is the food orientation (LOL) of dim sum snacky? It's >always great when someone brings some chasiu bao or siumai to share, >but I associate it primarily with lunch. The real gourmets, the Jewish, eat dim sum at any time of the day on Sundays. :-) >So it's like bringing French fries to the office. Yeah, people snack >on them, but French fries don't strike me as a snacky food, per se. >They are a food that can be eaten as a snack, but being a snack is >not part of their definition. P.S. About four custards on a plate, Wiki tells me four is an unlucky number (three is lucky). (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) Joel >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 17 22:53:04 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:53:04 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack / "and nor" In-Reply-To: <201108172244.p7HHMXnb022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at > circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) you did that "and nor" on purpose, right? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 22:55:35 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:55:35 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172244.p7HHMXnb022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 06:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> >>> Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I >>> don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of >>> food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light >>> or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum >>> dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). >> >> Maybe it's because I haven't been a kid or been around kids for so >> long, but the word "snack" just doesn't come to mind other than as >> "snack food." If you were to run by the local burger joint and pick >> up some fries, would you say "I had a snack"? Okay, probably so. > > I haven't been a kid for a while either, but "snack" to me did not > always mean take-out -- it was sometimes what I had when I came home > from school and other times what I picked up (and took out, and ate) > on my way home, so my mother didn't know. Well, with dim sum, how else are you going to get it in a form you would call a snack? If you eat it in the restaurant, is it a snack? To me it would be a light lunch, but even so, it's not a snack food, it's a food that is being eaten as a snack/light lunch. Is a slider a snack (slider has recently become a viable word in Seattle, but it's not in the OED yet)? Doesn't seem like it to me. You can have one as a snack, but it doesn't seem like a snack per se. > >> Nevertheless, is the food orientation (LOL) of dim sum snacky? It's >> always great when someone brings some chasiu bao or siumai to share, >> but I associate it primarily with lunch. > > The real gourmets, the Jewish, eat dim sum at any time of the day on > Sundays. :-) We have all-day dim sum here in Seattle, too, but it's primarily a lunch food. > >> So it's like bringing French fries to the office. Yeah, people snack >> on them, but French fries don't strike me as a snacky food, per se. >> They are a food that can be eaten as a snack, but being a snack is >> not part of their definition. > > P.S. About four custards on a plate, Wiki tells me four is an > unlucky number (three is lucky). (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at > circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) It comes from the Chinese reading of four, which means death. You can still find places in Japan where they do that, but it's not so common. Looking at MandarinTools.com, 四 (four) is si4 in Mandarin and sei3 in Cantonese. Death is si3 in Mandarin and sei2 in Cantonese. Both are shi in Japanese and sa in Korean. Also, see: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%9B%9B http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%AD%BB BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 22:58:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:58:22 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172055.p7HGeYU4011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Except that there *is* a speech community of people who say "incidences" instead of "incidents." If you can go by cable news, it's everybody but people on this list. I suppose "and plus," a U.S. freshman fave since the at least the 1970s, has already been covered. Of course, it's only one-half as egregious. JL On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 23:00:57 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:00:57 -0400 Subject: new nadoes Message-ID: Bugnadoes: read all about 'em: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/behold-bugnado-203649838.html Gustnadoes are bad too: http://news.yahoo.com/did-gustnado-topple-indiana-stage-experts-divided-211023909.html JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 17 23:03:37 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:03:37 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108170715.p7GKaenI016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't find really authoritative kanji for "humbow", but here are some candidates: http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?12,5331,5354 ... "haam baau" or so in Cantonese, read "xian bao" in Guoyu (with some tones either way), One candidate (2nd post) ... 餡包 ... seems to 'make sense' but I can't immediately verify it on-line. Another candidate (9th post) ... 鹹包 ... at least really exists in some sort of Chinese in more-or-less appropriate sense: http://www.chimeifood.com.tw/product/products.asp?fid=134 Somebody who can read Chinese well can probably do better. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 17 23:13:00 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:13:00 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108172045.p7HKjlZ3029221@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page of today's Times, laid out thus: Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." This is due to the fact that I am more and more receiving emails from forces for righteousness who want me to email my congressman, &c. and demand action. They offer a form email, but urge me to write my own. I send the form email, because I suppose that itl won't be read, but merely glanced at by a staff member, who is a letter counter, and will check it off as for or against. That fact, plus simple-mindedness, I suppose. Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) weren't misled. GAT On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: > > "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." > > The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal > correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by > various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. > > This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the > OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; > unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of > hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking > *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is > perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, > > "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." > > would have been much realer. > > Joel > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:40:57 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:40:57 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <530AFB06-3BE5-4D79-9011-5806E08385F6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 06:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Well, with dim sum, how else are you going to >get it in a form you would call a snack? If you >eat it in the restaurant, is it a snack? To me >it would be a light lunch, but even so, it's not >a snack food, it's a food that is being eaten as a snack/light lunch. I won't argue with this. By analogy, what do we call a meal of (Spanish) tapas? ... well, research shows "we" call it "Usu. pl. In Spanish bars or cafés, a *savoury* [there we are again] *snack* [ditto] or hors d'œuvre [see below] of sausage, cured ham, seafood, potato salad, etc., typically served with glasses of wine or sherry." "Appetizers" won't work, I guess, since dim sum are often both the appetizer and the satisfier. Perhaps "small dishes of savouries or desserts"? "Hors d'œuvre" too seems inappropriate for dim sum. (For unknown reason, "hors d'œuvre" doesn't come up in a simple search, but Advanced search full text does find it as a head-word.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 23:41:05 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:41:05 -0700 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108172304.p7HJ7pEj015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nice find! I can't read Chinese, but can at least identify characters. On the page for 餡 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A4%A1), it says under the Mandarin section "filling (for dumplings etc.)" Since 包 means wrap (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8C%85. but not defined), that makes sense. "餡包" gets 938,000 Googits. I wonder if 鹹包 is word play or nonce usage. I've never understood how Cantonese writing works very well, but I think they have some freedom of character use, something along the lines of jukujikun as you mentioned the other day. Still, "鹹包" gets 49,900 Googits, pale in comparison, but still a large number... BB On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:03 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I can't find really authoritative kanji for "humbow", but here are some > candidates: > > http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?12,5331,5354 > > ... "haam baau" or so in Cantonese, read "xian bao" in Guoyu (with some > tones either way), > > One candidate (2nd post) ... > > 餡包 > > ... seems to 'make sense' but I can't immediately verify it on-line. > > Another candidate (9th post) ... > > 鹹包 > > ... at least really exists in some sort of Chinese in more-or-less > appropriate sense: > > http://www.chimeifood.com.tw/product/products.asp?fid=134 > > Somebody who can read Chinese well can probably do better. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:41:54 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:41:54 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 06:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >If you can go by cable news, it's everybody but people on this list. Still not my local speech community. :-) JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:46:09 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:46:09 -0400 Subject: new nadoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gustnado was discussed on 2007-04-26, and dated to 1991 or 1992 by Bapopik at AOL.COM. (Not that I remembered either.) Joel At 8/17/2011 07:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Bugnadoes: read all about 'em: >http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/behold-bugnado-203649838.html > >Gustnadoes are bad too: >http://news.yahoo.com/did-gustnado-topple-indiana-stage-experts-divided-211023909.html > >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:50:30 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:50:30 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page >of today's Times, laid out thus: >Letter counters >hacking avowals >from News Corp > >I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >... >Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >weren't misled. I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all on one line. Joel >GAT > >On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: > > > > "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." > > > > The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal > > correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by > > various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. > > > > This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the > > OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; > > unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of > > hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking > > *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is > > perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, > > > > "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." > > > > would have been much realer. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 23:56:18 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:56:18 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172341.p7HJ7pGB015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Re: Dim sum =? savory snack > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 06:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Well, with dim sum, how else are you going to >> get it in a form you would call a snack? If you >> eat it in the restaurant, is it a snack? To me >> it would be a light lunch, but even so, it's not >> a snack food, it's a food that is being eaten as a snack/light lunch. > > I won't argue with this. By analogy, what do we > call a meal of (Spanish) tapas? ... well, > research shows "we" call it "Usu. pl. In Spanish > bars or cafés, a *savoury* [there we are again] > *snack* [ditto] or hors d'˛uvre [see below] of > sausage, cured ham, seafood, potato salad, etc., > typically served with glasses of wine or sherry." > > "Appetizers" won't work, I guess, since dim sum > are often both the appetizer and the > satisfier. Perhaps "small dishes of savouries or desserts"? > > "Hors d'˛uvre" too seems inappropriate for dim > sum. (For unknown reason, "hors d'˛uvre" doesn't > come up in a simple search, but Advanced search > full text does find it as a head-word.) How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from carts in a restaurant." Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes…) The non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any means. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:07:41 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:07:41 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> >> This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." >> >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: >> >>> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted >>> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said >>> in July 2009 to Parliament: >>> >>> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have >>> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... >>> >>> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? >>> >>> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... > > you should probably vote for british. from my files: > > Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 >> Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.< > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html > > He did not consider it appropriate for society to be run by or for ‘merchants and manufacturers’, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... > www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ > > Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd picked up an arabic version and nor did your distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. > www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage > > [thousands more – 3/1/08] > > (somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys (emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative supplement to the main clause; the combination drives things home. it does seem to the british, but i see no reason to treat it as an inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). > > arnold > (and) nor is it particularly new. I've been encountering it in British novels from the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. I don't think it's at all frequent in cispondian usage; perhaps Lynne Murphy has covered "and nor" in her blog. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:10:59 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:10:59 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172124.p7HLOjTR007474@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 03:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >> > For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >> Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >> > >> > For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >> > >> > adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >> sweet, as the epithet of articles of food >> having a stimulating taste or flavor." >> > >> > I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as >> a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. >> >> But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of >> savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that >> can work—each dish (or double-dish for the fancy >> ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. > > Or I think often three (items) to a dish. (Isn't three a lucky number?) > > Joel I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items will count double. At least that's how the places in the respective S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:16:01 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:16:01 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <530AFB06-3BE5-4D79-9011-5806E08385F6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: >> P.S. About four custards on a plate, Wiki tells me four is an >> unlucky number (three is lucky). (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at >> circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) A practice still practiced in Vancouver hotels and apartment buildings. (Lots of Chinese and non-Chinese there.) LH > > It comes from the Chinese reading of four, which means death. You can still find places in Japan where they do that, but it's not so common. > > Looking at MandarinTools.com, 四 (four) is si4 in Mandarin and sei3 in Cantonese. > Death is si3 in Mandarin and sei2 in Cantonese. > Both are shi in Japanese and sa in Korean. > > Also, see: > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%9B%9B > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%AD%BB > > BB > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:21:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:21:02 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <6715B754-EE09-4BB9-B6D8-650C4BE23B54@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from carts in a restaurant." > > Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, I've had good dim sum in a Hunanese restaurant. Maybe "Chinese" would be safer. > I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." Sounds good to me. (On various levels.) > > I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes…) The non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any means. > Well, presumably it would be in the broader sense (= 'tasty, appetizing'), in which case it's not opposed to "sweet". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 01:04:37 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:04:37 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108180021.p7HGeYhu011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from carts in a restaurant." >> >> Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, > > I've had good dim sum in a Hunanese restaurant. Maybe "Chinese" would be safer. I suppose it comes down to how people perceive it, though ultimately I think you're right. > >> I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." > Sounds good to me. (On various levels.) >> >> I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes∑) The non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any means. >> > Well, presumably it would be in the broader sense (= 'tasty, appetizing'), in which case it's not opposed to "sweet". > That's another reason to dislike the word "savory": It's confusing! Is this meaning of "savory" basically applied when you eat something and say, "That was scrumptious"? I can't imagine anyone wanting to point at cuisine 1 and call it savory (tasty, appetizing) and cuisine 2 and call it not savory, so I have trouble figuring out how using this word would make a useful contrast. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 01:12:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:12:30 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108172350.p7HJ7pGt015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a crook", was that an avowal? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page >> of today's Times, laid out thus: >> Letter counters >> hacking avowals >> from News Corp >> >> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >> ... >> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >> weren't misled. > > I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do > read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped > through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all > on one line. > > Joel > > >> GAT >> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: >>> >>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." >>> >>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal >>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by >>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. >>> >>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the >>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; >>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of >>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking >>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is >>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, >>> >>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." >>> >>> would have been much realer. >>> >>> Joel >>> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> George A. Thompson >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 01:17:27 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:17:27 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <8023591235008743132@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a > crook", was that an avowal? I'd say so. He avowed (asserted, claimed, declared) that he was not a crook. So it was an avowal, a claim, and a declaration. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd call it an assertion, partly because "denial" is such a handy way of characterizing assertions with negative content. YMMV. LH > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >>> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page >>> of today's Times, laid out thus: >>> Letter counters >>> hacking avowals >>> from News Corp >>> >>> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >>> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >>> ... >>> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >>> weren't misled. >> >> I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do >> read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped >> through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all >> on one line. >> >> Joel >> >> >>> GAT >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> >>>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: >>>> >>>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." >>>> >>>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal >>>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by >>>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. >>>> >>>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the >>>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; >>>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of >>>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking >>>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is >>>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, >>>> >>>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." >>>> >>>> would have been much realer. >>>> >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> George A. Thompson >>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >>> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 01:18:01 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:18:01 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108162151.p7GLRQTJ023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both > knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same > year. Here is a cite for "dead man's handle" in 1902. Also, here are the details for a false match in 1902 that is really dated 1905. Cite: 1902 February 15, The Electrical World and Engineer, Page 312, Column 1, The Electrical World and Engineer, Inc., New York. (Google Books full view) DEAD MAN'S HANDLE - A patent issued Jan. 28 to W. B. Potter relates to a railway controller attachment sometimes-known as "the dead man's handle." ... It is thus necessary for the motorman to have his hand on the controller handle at all times when power is being applied to the motors to drive the train and should he drop dead or become disabled, the train will stop of itself, and will not run wild. Hence the popular name "dead man's handle." http://books.google.com/books?id=OU9EAQAAIAAJ&q=%22dead+man%27s%22#v=snippet& There is a match in Google Books in "The Technograph" with an incorrect 1902 date. Cite: 1905-1906, The Technograph, The Electric Test Car by E. I. Wenger, Start Page 56, Quote Page 61, Number 20, Association of Engineering Societies of the University of Illinois. (Google Books full view) The handle is removable and is what is called a dead man's handle. That is, it is spring actuated and if, for any reason, the hand is removed the handle comes to the off position, thereby opening all the switches. http://books.google.com/books?id=xWUiAQAAMAAJ&q=%22dead+man%27s%22#v=snippet& HathiTrust shows a match in a children's book called "My Picture Book of Railways". The database assigns the book a date of 1900, but the images show no date, and a closer look at the record shows a date of 19--, i.e., the date is unknown. GB gives the work a date of 192-. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 01:43:20 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:43:20 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108180118.p7HJ7pJb015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My primary initial interest was in "dead man's switch", because it's not even IN the OED. But this is a great find. There are two pointers that suggest that this is a fairly early use. First, the patent indicates that the field has not been exhausted. Second, the identification of "sometimes-known" also suggests that it's a novelty. If there was a variation in naming of a fairly common object, the description likely would have involved multiple names--as the OED 1908 citation includes both handle and knob. So the expression can't be more than a few years older than 1902--of course, the first electric trains are not much older either. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:18 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes > both > > knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same > > year. > > Here is a cite for "dead man's handle" in 1902. Also, here are the > details for a false match in 1902 that is really dated 1905. > > Cite: 1902 February 15, The Electrical World and Engineer, Page 312, > Column 1, The Electrical World and Engineer, Inc., New York. (Google > Books full view) > > DEAD MAN'S HANDLE - A patent issued Jan. 28 to W. B. Potter relates to > a railway controller attachment sometimes-known as "the dead man's > handle." ... > > It is thus necessary for the motorman to have his hand on the > controller handle at all times when power is being applied to the > motors to drive the train and should he drop dead or become disabled, > the train will stop of itself, and will not run wild. Hence the > popular name "dead man's handle." > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=OU9EAQAAIAAJ&q=%22dead+man%27s%22#v=snippet& > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 02:05:42 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:05:42 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108172341.p7HHMXvv022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know if anyone cares, since this doesn't go the the heart of the matter in English, but "bao" is an extremely popular Dutch "snack" (see "dim sum"--I'll post on that later). Every Dutch supermarket carries at least two (beef and pork) and up to six varieties of "bao" in the freezer--they are meant to be microwaved briefly before consumption. The problem is, there is virtually no food in supermarkets that could be described as "Chinese". The Dutch equivalent is Indonesian fast food--what with noodle and rice mixes all meant to resemble Indonesian creations. AFAICT "bao" is also considered Indonesian (although most Asian restaurants are tagged with "Chinese-Indonesian" label). This does not mean it's not Chinese in origin, but the distribution is very wide. Just to be clear--these are the standard, white-dough steamed buns with some meat or vegetarian filling, ranging between 2" and 4" in diameter. Unlike the US varieties, they are always packaged as singles (makes it easier to microwave two--right in the pack). They are never baked. When I've seen the baked varieties in bakeries, they were also occasionally labeled as "bao", but this was not the rule (on the other hand, a split roll baked/toasted with ham, cheese and pineapple was /always/ labeled "Hawaiian"). If anything was labeled Han Bao, I haven't seen it. I hope this helps in some small way. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Nice find! I can't read Chinese, but can at least identify characters. > > On the page for 餡 (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A4%A1), it says under > the Mandarin section "filling (for dumplings etc.)" Since 包 means wrap ( > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8C%85. but not defined), that makes > sense. "餡包" gets 938,000 Googits. > > I wonder if 鹹包 is word play or nonce usage. I've never understood how > Cantonese writing works very well, but I think they have some freedom of > character use, something along the lines of jukujikun as you mentioned the > other day. Still, "鹹包" gets 49,900 Googits, pale in comparison, but still a > large number... > > BB > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 02:13:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:13:38 -0400 Subject: OT: "Dirty" pictures referendum on W:pedia [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108172113.p7HJ7p8d015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Most Wiki referendums are--of course, it's the same people, on average, who vote in US elections... VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Sheer assholery! > > -- > -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 02:17:35 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:17:35 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108172150.p7HHMXhZ022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: GNA has been flaky for a long time now--Google tried different variation on the search configurations, which results in all sorts of problems. One thing that's been gone but made a reappearance in a different place is the link to archive search on the regular news search page. The archives link used to be right below the search bar, but now it's in the left-hand column--and, for a few weeks, it was gone completely. The same with the link to GNA from other Google sites. My guess is that your link overdetermines some parameter which is lost when it's redirected. But if you access it directly, without going through old links, it's no problem. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I just tried it. No problems. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Garson O'Toole > > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another > > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that > > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken > > offline. > > > > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to > > reach the Google News Archive today: > > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ > > > > Here is a tweet about the dead link: > > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary > > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. > > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 02:18:46 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:18:46 -0700 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180205.p7I0AYD1022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Based on Google Translate, the Dutch Wikipedia page (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bapao) seems to say they are from Chinese culture via Indonesia. The dish takes on different forms and names in English, such as nikuman, which has come from China via Japan, and manapua, popular in Hawai'i. Lots to explore here! Humbao here can be either steamed (white) or baked (brown, generally with a honey glaze). Surely, they must sell these products in the freezer section of US grocery stores--Asian if not general--though frozen just isn't the same. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:05 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I don't know if anyone cares, since this doesn't go the the heart of the > matter in English, but "bao" is an extremely popular Dutch "snack" (see "di= > m > sum"--I'll post on that later). Every Dutch supermarket carries at least tw= > o > (beef and pork) and up to six varieties of "bao" in the freezer--they are > meant to be microwaved briefly before consumption. The problem is, there is > virtually no food in supermarkets that could be described as "Chinese". The > Dutch equivalent is Indonesian fast food--what with noodle and rice mixes > all meant to resemble Indonesian creations. AFAICT "bao" is also considered > Indonesian (although most Asian restaurants are tagged with > "Chinese-Indonesian" label). This does not mean it's not Chinese in origin, > but the distribution is very wide. > > Just to be clear--these are the standard, white-dough steamed buns with som= > e > meat or vegetarian filling, ranging between 2" and 4" in diameter. Unlike > the US varieties, they are always packaged as singles (makes it easier to > microwave two--right in the pack). They are never baked. When I've seen the > baked varieties in bakeries, they were also occasionally labeled as "bao", > but this was not the rule (on the other hand, a split roll baked/toasted > with ham, cheese and pineapple was /always/ labeled "Hawaiian"). If anythin= > g > was labeled Han Bao, I haven't seen it. > > I hope this helps in some small way. > > VS-) > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Benjamin Barrett wro= > te: > >> >> Nice find! I can't read Chinese, but can at least identify characters. >> >> On the page for =C0` (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A4%A1), it says u= > nder >> the Mandarin section "filling (for dumplings etc.)" Since =A5] means wrap= > ( >> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8C%85. but not defined), that makes >> sense. "=C0`=A5]" gets 938,000 Googits. >> >> I wonder if =C4=D0=A5] is word play or nonce usage. I've never understood= > how >> Cantonese writing works very well, but I think they have some freedom of >> character use, something along the lines of jukujikun as you mentioned th= > e >> other day. Still, "=C4=D0=A5]" gets 49,900 Googits, pale in comparison, b= > ut still a >> large number... >> >> BB >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 03:09:07 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:09:07 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180218.p7HJ7pMX015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Asian--yes, general supermarkets--mostly no. I have never seen them as singles, however--usually in packs of four to six, depending on size and prep method (bake or steam). As far as I can tell, none are intended to be microwaved, but I've never been able to read the non-English directions on them so it could be something lost in translation. In any case, I've never seen the ones similar to the Dutch ones in the US. Those used to cost from 10 to 70 cents apiece--like I said, basic snack or fast food. The ones I've seen in Boston/SF/Chicago/Madison tend to be for home production, not food on the go. Of course, the ones at bakeries are just snacks--I do believe that's egg glaze mostly, not honey (but it might be sugar/honey glaze on some of them). I've seen them on menu lists (or carts) in dim sums in Boston, New York and Chicago (I've only been to one dim sum in Oakland and never in SF). But they are listed under a variety of names. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Based on Google Translate, the Dutch Wikipedia page ( > http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bapao) seems to say they are from Chinese > culture via Indonesia. > > The dish takes on different forms and names in English, such as nikuman, > which has come from China via Japan, and manapua, popular in Hawai'i. Lots > to explore here! > > Humbao here can be either steamed (white) or baked (brown, generally with a > honey glaze). > > Surely, they must sell these products in the freezer section of US grocery > stores--Asian if not general--though frozen just isn't the same. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 03:09:28 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:09:28 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180218.p7HJ7pMX015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:05 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > I don't know if anyone cares, since this doesn't go the the heart of the > > matter in English, but "bao" is an extremely popular Dutch "snack" (see "dim > > sum"--I'll post on that later). Every Dutch supermarket carries at least two > > (beef and pork) and up to six varieties of "bao" in the freezer--they are > > meant to be microwaved briefly before consumption. The problem is, there is > > virtually no food in supermarkets that could be described as "Chinese". The > > Dutch equivalent is Indonesian fast food--what with noodle and rice mixes > > all meant to resemble Indonesian creations. AFAICT "bao" is also considered > > Indonesian (although most Asian restaurants are tagged with > > "Chinese-Indonesian" label). This does not mean it's not Chinese in origin, > > but the distribution is very wide. > > Based on Google Translate, the Dutch Wikipedia page (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bapao) > seems to say they are from Chinese culture via Indonesia. "Bapao", more frequently spelled "bakpao" (the "k" represents a glottal stop), is popular street food in many Indonesian cities. Anyone who has spent time in places like Jakarta or Bandung will be familiar with the call of "bakpao!" from street vendors, competing with similar calls of "satay!" (meat skewers), "bakso!" (meatballs), etc. On his Indonesia trip, Obama reminisced about the calls of "satay" and "bakso" (though he left out the "bakpao"): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2765 The "bak" /ba?/ element in "bakpao" and "bakso" is from the Hokkien version of 肉 meaning "meat", which Wikipedia tells me may actually be derived from proto-Austronesian "*babuy" ('wild pig'). http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%82%89#Noun_3 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 03:28:34 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:28:34 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180319.p7HJ7pOn015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the reminder! Bapao is probably even more common as a name than Bao. But both are used in Holland. I have never seen "bakpao" there. But I haven't been everywhere... ;-) VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > "Bapao", more frequently spelled "bakpao" (the "k" represents a > glottal stop), is popular street food in many Indonesian cities. > Anyone who has spent time in places like Jakarta or Bandung will be > familiar with the call of "bakpao!" from street vendors, competing > with similar calls of "satay!" (meat skewers), "bakso!" (meatballs), > etc. On his Indonesia trip, Obama reminisced about the calls of > "satay" and "bakso" (though he left out the "bakpao"): > > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2765 > > The "bak" /ba?/ element in "bakpao" and "bakso" is from the Hokkien > version of 肉 meaning "meat", which Wikipedia tells me may actually be > derived from proto-Austronesian "*babuy" ('wild pig'). > > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%82%89#Noun_3 > > --bgz > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 03:39:25 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:39:25 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180328.p7I0AYKH022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:28 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> "Bapao", more frequently spelled "bakpao" (the "k" represents a >> glottal stop), is popular street food in many Indonesian cities. >> Anyone who has spent time in places like Jakarta or Bandung will be >> familiar with the call of "bakpao!" from street vendors, competing >> with similar calls of "satay!" (meat skewers), "bakso!" (meatballs), >> etc. On his Indonesia trip, Obama reminisced about the calls of >> "satay" and "bakso" (though he left out the "bakpao"): >> >> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D2765 >> >> The "bak" /ba?/ element in "bakpao" and "bakso" is from the Hokkien >> version of =E8=82=89 meaning "meat", which Wikipedia tells me may actually >> be derived from proto-Austronesian "*babuy" ('wild pig'). >> >> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%82%89#Noun_3 > > Thanks for the reminder! Bapao is probably even more common as a name than > Bao. But both are used in Holland. I have never seen "bakpao" there. But I > haven't been everywhere... ;-) I'm not surprised the Dutch prefer the "bapao" spelling variant to "bakpao" (same with "baso" vs. "bakso" and "bami" vs. "bakmi"), since they wouldn't cotton to the Indonesian use of "k" for the glottal stop. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 04:45:31 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 00:45:31 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108180217.p7I0AYEP022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Bill, Jon, and Victor for responding. Google once had a specialized webpage front-end for the Google News Archive. It was located here: http://news.google.com/archivesearch If you type "Google News Archive" into the Google query slot then the top result points to the location given above. However, this link now redirects to another location that looks like a generic Google News search page. The search method outlined by Bill does work for now. Thanks Bill: 1) Put a term into the Google search window. Search 2) When results come back, hit the NEWS tab at the top. 3) When the News results come back, hit the "Archives" link down the left side of the page. There is an option on the left side of the page to search in a custom range within the Google News Archive, but I do not see the histogram that was once bannered across the top of the page. Do any list members know if the front-end that uses a graphical display of matches is still available somewhere in the forest of links? Garson On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:17 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: Google News Archive link is dead > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > GNA has been flaky for a long time now--Google tried different variation on > the search configurations, which results in all sorts of problems. One thing > that's been gone but made a reappearance in a different place is the link to > archive search on the regular news search page. The archives link used to be > right below the search bar, but now it's in the left-hand column--and, for a > few weeks, it was gone completely. The same with the link to GNA from other > Google sites. My guess is that your link overdetermines some parameter which > is lost when it's redirected. But if you access it directly, without going > through old links, it's no problem. > > VS-) > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> >> I just tried it. No problems. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Garson O'Toole >> wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Garson O'Toole >> > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another >> > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that >> > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken >> > offline. >> > >> > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to >> > reach the Google News Archive today: >> > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ >> > >> > Here is a tweet about the dead link: >> > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary >> > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. >> > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 05:28:49 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:28:49 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108180445.p7HJ7pTH015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Thanks to Bill, Jon, and Victor for responding. Google once had a > specialized webpage front-end for the Google News Archive. It was > located here: > > http://news.google.com/archivesearch > > If you type "Google News Archive" into the Google query slot then the > top result points to the location given above. However, this link now > redirects to another location that looks like a generic Google News > search page. This is part of a more general strategy Google has been pursuing lately with its pages. There used to be a dedicated Dictionary page at: http://www.google.com/dictionary Now gone: http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/05/google-dictionary-slams-shut-forever-world-unsurprisingly-at-a/ But you can still get to Dictionary results, either by using the "define:" operator before a keyword and clicking "More", or by searching on a keyword in the usual way and selecting "More search tools" from the left-hand column on the search results page. You can get to the News Archive from the same menu. > There is an option on the left side of the page to search in a custom > range within the Google News Archive, but I do not see the histogram > that was once bannered across the top of the page. Do any list members > know if the front-end that uses a graphical display of matches is > still available somewhere in the forest of links? Well, you can click "Timeline" in that "More search tools" menu in the left-hand column, but that's not exactly the same as the histogram that was on the old News Archive page -- it includes various other stuff, like web pages and Google Books results. I think that helpful news-only display is gone now. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 05:35:23 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:35:23 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 1:28 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > >> There is an option on the left side of the page to search in a custom >> range within the Google News Archive, but I do not see the histogram >> that was once bannered across the top of the page. Do any list members >> know if the front-end that uses a graphical display of matches is >> still available somewhere in the forest of links? > > Well, you can click "Timeline" in that "More search tools" menu in the > left-hand column, but that's not exactly the same as the histogram > that was on the old News Archive page -- it includes various other > stuff, like web pages and Google Books results. I think that helpful > news-only display is gone now. And speaking of data visualization, the Google Books Ngram Viewer is leaving Google Labs (which is being phased out anyway) and will be incorporated directly into the Google Books display. http://www.googlelabs.com/show_details?app_key=agtnbGFiczIwLXd3d3IVCxIMTGFic0FwcE1vZGVsGOnEuQIM --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 06:55:07 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 02:55:07 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108180104.p7HJ7pJ9015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm a bit concerned about this thread because many of the post do not necessarily reflect my own experience with dim-sum. I tried to put some notes together--some may be wrong, so feel free to correct them at any point. First, the word has come to represent many things, some likely broader than I would feel comfortable using. It refers to a style of meal, the meal itself, items served at such a meal, items typical of such a meal but not necessarily served at one, all Chinese savory "mini-bites" such as shao-mai and har-gao. Furthermore, restaurants that serve such a meal are also sometimes referred to as "dim-sum" or "dim-sum X", where X stands for anything that traditional may identify a restaurant (e.g., restaurant, place, joint, house). "Going for dim-sum" usually means a visit to such a restaurant--irrespectively of whether this is a specialty of the house or a sideline, perhaps offered only once or twice a week. And if you go to your local Costco, you may find a plastic tray full of prepared dumplings (to be microwaved), with a big "Dim-Sum" label across the top. I've also seen some simple shao-mai packages labeled as "dim-sum". Only last week I had a discussion with a Chinese friend (don't recall the specific place of origin, but it is South Coastal China). And I was corrected (unnecessarily, as it turned out--the distinction was not relevant to the point I was making) that dim-sum is never served past mid-afternoon, although one can certainly buy dim-sum items and eat them at his leisure. That is, dim-sum is traditionally a morning-to-early afternoon meal or snack, i.e., the spot traditionally occupied in American cuisine (if there is such a thing) as "brunch". You don't have dim-sum for lunch or for dinner--or, for that matter, for breakfast, nor do you have "dim-sum lunch" or "dim-sum brunch"--it's just "dim-sum". This does not mean, of course, that no one uses these expressions, just that they are not what is normally intended by "dim-sum" (i.e., those uses might well be considered non-standard--for a time). Although most American Chinese restaurants serve dim-sum only on weekends (sometimes only one day a week), in larger cities (NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF), there are now numerous restaurants that specialize in dim sum and serve it daily, although never after 3 pm (some only until 2 pm). But even at these locations, the selection is more limited during the week than it is on weekends. Meal content: Most of the items are quite small and served on small plates--sometimes still inside the individual steamer baskets in which they were prepared (if steamed). But this is by no means exclusive. Such specialties as steamed greens, clams, jellyfish, chicken feet, etc., are often served on larger plates and must be ordered separately. To the best of my understanding, this is not an Americanized addition, but a part of a traditional meal. Still, the majority of dishes are pre-plated on small plates or bowls. The differing colors or styles of plates usually correspond to different prices charged for the items (or individual prices are marked off on a pre-printed gridded receipt). Each small plate may contain anywhere from one to four of any particular item, depending on the item and the proprietor's preference (diners rarely have a choice--they must choose any multiple of plates, but not specific numbers of items). The most common service consists of "waitresses" pushing carts around the floor of the restaurant, each cart containing stacks of plates, usually representing a particular kind of items. For example, there may be a shao-mai cart, a dumpling cart (including har-gao, and other fully enclosed dumplings with different shells and different fillings), a bao cart, a noodle cart, sticky rice cart (rice steamed in lotus leaf, banana leaf, or simply under a small glass bowl), deep fried cart, etc. Not all cart contain pre-plated items. For example, hot soy milk or hot almond-flavored "soup" may be ladled into individual bowls at the table. The "dumplings" made out of tofu slices, eggplant slices, green pepper halves or shiitake mushroom caps stuffed with some kind of meatball mixture (pork, beef or pork/shrimp combination) are often carted around together, but either already floating in a sauce or each sitting in its own pot and ladled with sauce once plated. Each restaurant may have its own specialty that may not be tradition or available elsewhere, e.g., seafood dishes, baked pastries, etc. What passes for dessert is usually 1) egg custard, 2) soy-milk or almond-flavored pudding, 3) almond-flavored or bean-flavored jelly, 4) occasional sweet pastries (e.g., with red-bean filling) that may be baked, steamed or deep-fried. Other than these and soy milk, to the best of my knowledge all other dishes can be considered "savory" (or "savoury"). Some restaurants also serve one or more soups (in addition to the hot soy milk or something similar). Tea is an integral part of such a meal. Traditionally, it might have been the center of the meal, although, in the American version, that's hardly the case. In fact, the Wiki article on dim-sum goes further: "Going for dim sum is usually known in Cantonese as going to "drink tea" (yum cha, 飲茶)." In general, the Wiki article is sloppy and somewhat tendentious, but it's worth checking out. In particular, it starts out with an important bit for this discussion: "Dim sum is a Cantonese term for snack. However, dimsum more typically refers to a style of Chinese food prepared as small bite-sized or individual portions of food, traditionally served in small steamer baskets or on small plates." Now, "snack" could also mean a number of things. It can be a small meal or consumption of something edible that is consumed between meals--e.g., an apple, a candy bar, a cookie. The third meaning is an item for such an interlude--i.e., the apple or candy bar itself. So, while the entire dim-sum meal is certainly not a snack, each individual item may well be considered a snack in that third sense. Perhaps, in French it would sound different, but we are talking about Chinese food, not French haute cuisine. As Wilson keeps reminding us, your mileage may vary. But that's my take on dim-sum. VS-) PS: I am not trying to represent anything in a particular authentic spelling. For example, shao-mai can be written as shumai or in a number of other ways and it's a common item in supermarket freezers (and, lately, at sushi counters). Har-gao is another one with a multitude of spellings, but, despite Wiki claim of it being "traditional", it's actually a fairly recent invention--in particular, the translucent dough wrapper is by no means traditional and has been around for less than 50 years (according to one of my Chinese cookbooks). Many items have been invented in Hong Kong, some in Singapore and some actually have been brought back to China from the US. Tracking down the history of each dim-sum item is very difficult at this point. What people think is traditional may well be endemic to a particular city. On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > >> > >> How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from > carts in a restaurant." > >> > >> Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, > > > > I've had good dim sum in a Hunanese restaurant. Maybe "Chinese" would be > safer. > > I suppose it comes down to how people perceive it, though ultimately I > think you're right. > > > > >> I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" > should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." > > Sounds good to me. (On various levels.) > >> > >> I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my > experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've > eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes∑) The > non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the > dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any > means. > >> > > Well, presumably it would be in the broader sense (= 'tasty, > appetizing'), in which case it's not opposed to "sweet". > > > > That's another reason to dislike the word "savory": It's confusing! Is this > meaning of "savory" basically applied when you eat something and say, "That > was scrumptious"? > > I can't imagine anyone wanting to point at cuisine 1 and call it savory > (tasty, appetizing) and cuisine 2 and call it not savory, so I have trouble > figuring out how using this word would make a useful contrast. > > BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 07:00:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:00:02 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Never" is a funny word. Right after I sent it, I realized that someone might come up with a 24-hour dim-sum place, say, in LA. Sure, no problem--such places may exist. But that's a marketing issue, not a traditional one. I hope the distinction is clear. It's like 24-hour breakfast at Denny's or IHOP--yeah, it exists, but it's not really breakfast, is it? VS-) On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 2:55 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ... > Although most American Chinese restaurants serve dim-sum only on weekends > (sometimes only one day a week), in larger cities (NYC, Boston, Chicago, > SF), there are now numerous restaurants that specialize in dim sum and serve > it daily, although never after 3 pm (some only until 2 pm). But even at > these locations, the selection is more limited during the week than it is on > weekends. > ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 07:43:57 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:43:57 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108180117.p7HJ7pJV015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wouldn't that be a "disavowal"? Question to GAT: when you refer to "letter counters", do you mean literals or missives? Put another way: characters or mailed messages? VS-) PS: Yes, that was a rhetorical question (the second, not the first). On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a > > crook", was that an avowal? > > I'd say so. He avowed (asserted, claimed, declared) that he was not a > crook. So it was an avowal, a claim, and a declaration. On the other hand, > I'm not sure I'd call it an assertion, partly because "denial" is such a > handy way of characterizing assertions with negative content. YMMV. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 08:19:49 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:19:49 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108180655.p7I4Ng5m011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A nice summary. I recall being told that dim sum is served in that same time range, but was not aware of its place in the diet. I don't think I've ever had dim sum before 11:30--my impression is that that's when the restaurants start serving--so it doesn't seem like a brunch thing to me. The question at hand is not only understanding how dim sum operates traditionally, but how it's understood in English. We certainly have places here in Seattle that serve far past the traditional time. The Bamboo Village, for example, serves until 9 or 10 pm (http://www.yelp.com/biz/bamboo-village-seattle). They also start at 10:30 am, showing that my impression of the start time is either outdated or just wrong. One of the interesting questions is what happens to yumcha in English. My recollection is hearing people say the somewhat awkward "Let's go yumcha" because "yum" is a verb. I was told that's because you're supposed to drink a cup of tea for each dish to aid in the digestion of the oils. The Japanese article says that there are different explanations for the origin of the word dim sum, but that in any case, it's a little something you eat between meals. That sounds like snack food, which is perhaps how many people understand it in the English-speaking world. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:55 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Only last week I had a discussion with a Chinese friend (don't recall the > specific place of origin, but it is South Coastal China). And I was > corrected (unnecessarily, as it turned out--the distinction was not relevan= > t > to the point I was making) that dim-sum is never served past mid-afternoon, > although one can certainly buy dim-sum items and eat them at his leisure. > That is, dim-sum is traditionally a morning-to-early afternoon meal or > snack, i.e., the spot traditionally occupied in American cuisine (if there > is such a thing) as "brunch". You don't have dim-sum for lunch or for > dinner--or, for that matter, for breakfast, nor do you have "dim-sum lunch" > or "dim-sum brunch"--it's just "dim-sum". This does not mean, of course, > that no one uses these expressions, just that they are not what is normally > intended by "dim-sum" (i.e., those uses might well be considered > non-standard--for a time). > > Although most American Chinese restaurants serve dim-sum only on weekends > (sometimes only one day a week), in larger cities (NYC, Boston, Chicago, > SF), there are now numerous restaurants that specialize in dim sum and serv= > e > it daily, although never after 3 pm (some only until 2 pm). But even at > these locations, the selection is more limited during the week than it is o= > n > weekends. > > Tea is an integral part of such a meal. Traditionally, it might have been > the center of the meal, although, in the American version, that's hardly th= > e > case. In fact, the Wiki article on dim-sum goes further: "Going for dim sum > is usually known in Cantonese as going to "drink tea" (yum cha, =E9=A3=B2= > =E8=8C=B6)." > > In general, the Wiki article is sloppy and somewhat tendentious, but it's > worth checking out. In particular, it starts out with an important bit for > this discussion: "Dim sum is a Cantonese term for snack. However, dimsum > more typically refers to a style of Chinese food prepared as small > bite-sized or individual portions of food, traditionally served in small > steamer baskets or on small plates." > > Now, "snack" could also mean a number of things. It can be a small meal or > consumption of something edible that is consumed between meals--e.g., an > apple, a candy bar, a cookie. The third meaning is an item for such an > interlude--i.e., the apple or candy bar itself. So, while the entire dim-su= > m > meal is certainly not a snack, each individual item may well be considered = > a > snack in that third sense. Perhaps, in French it would sound different, but > we are talking about Chinese food, not French haute cuisine. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK Thu Aug 18 08:29:18 2011 From: D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:29:18 +0100 Subject: swear word Message-ID: Victor said: "From one of the Christmas episodes of The Vicar of Dibley (still being rerun on PBS): Choir leader: Why is Jesus special? Boy: His name is a swear word?" Presumably this was to note the use of 'swear word' and not 'curse word' for blasphemous language / an obscenity? 'Swear word' is the usual BrE lexeme for these things - so much so that, when I went to the States, I found the AmE term a strange description of 'shit', 'fuck' and other obscenities that weren't blasphemous, and I still do. Some raw ghits (these search-terms in sites in the domain .uk): Swear word - about 158,000 Swearword - about 106,000 Curse word - about 84,000 Curseword - about 23,200 So it's not as overwhelming as I thought in favour of 'swear( )word', and these figures also speak against my feeling that the usual BrE way to spell it was without a space. Still, the relative popularity of 'swear( )word' also comes out clearly here: http://bit.ly/SwearWordCurseWordBrE_Ngram Damien -- Damien Hall University of Kent (UK) Leverhulme Early Career Fellow, 'Towards a New Linguistic Atlas of France' English Language and Linguistics, School of European Culture and Languages ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 08:50:28 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:50:28 -0400 Subject: swear word In-Reply-To: <201108180829.p7HJ7pX5015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't speak as to the spelling, as this was a live transcription. But I certainly agree with the rest of the analysis. I suppose, one would also have to add "cuss words". I'm also not sure where "profanity" would fit vis-a-vis "obscenity". VS-) PS: Is "cuss" a possible product of word-avoidance from "curse". On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > > Victor said: > > "From one of the Christmas episodes of The Vicar of Dibley (still being > rerun > on PBS): > > Choir leader: Why is Jesus special? > Boy: His name is a swear word?" > > Presumably this was to note the use of 'swear word' and not 'curse word' > for blasphemous language / an obscenity? 'Swear word' is the usual BrE > lexeme for these things - so much so that, when I went to the States, I > found the AmE term a strange description of 'shit', 'fuck' and other > obscenities that weren't blasphemous, and I still do. > > Some raw ghits (these search-terms in sites in the domain .uk): > > Swear word - about 158,000 > > Swearword - about 106,000 > > Curse word - about 84,000 > > Curseword - about 23,200 > > So it's not as overwhelming as I thought in favour of 'swear( )word', and > these figures also speak against my feeling that the usual BrE way to spell > it was without a space. Still, the relative popularity of 'swear( )word' > also comes out clearly here: > > http://bit.ly/SwearWordCurseWordBrE_Ngram > > Damien > > -- > > Damien Hall ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 18 12:41:29 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:41:29 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: VS: "Question to GAT: when you refer to "letter counters", do you mean literals or missives? Put another way: characters or mailed messages?" It's my impression that no one actually reads the letters that constituents send to congressmen, &c. -- unless perhaps there is a large check enclosed. I believe that the emails are looked at by a staffer, whose assignment is to report to the boss that there were 47 letters regarding whatever, and that 34 of them were in favor and 13 opposed. These do-gooding organizations want me to write my congressman and urge me to write my own letter instead of using their form letter, but since I suppose that whatever argument I might present, however cogent, will not be read, let alone absorbed and heeded, I am content just to send the form email. GAT On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 3:43 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > Wouldn't that be a "disavowal"? > > Question to GAT: when you refer to "letter counters", do you mean literals > or missives? Put another way: characters or mailed messages? > > VS-) > > PS: Yes, that was a rhetorical question (the second, not the first). > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn >wrote: > > > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > > > I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a > > > crook", was that an avowal? > > > > I'd say so. He avowed (asserted, claimed, declared) that he was not a > > crook. So it was an avowal, a claim, and a declaration. On the other > hand, > > I'm not sure I'd call it an assertion, partly because "denial" is such a > > handy way of characterizing assertions with negative content. YMMV. > > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 13:28:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:28:51 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <56C36065-17E7-4AC8-B4A1-1E75AC957AC5@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >will count double. At least that's how the places in the respective >S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the plates had different shapes that correlated with the prices. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 13:32:04 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:32:04 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <8023591235008743132@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 09:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a >crook", was that an avowal? Yes. But I would be very confused if I saw a headline that said "Nixon avows crooking", or "Letter counters crooking avowal from Nixon". (And not because it said "crooking".) Joel >Sent from my iPhone > >On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of > the front page > >> of today's Times, laid out thus: > >> Letter counters > >> hacking avowals > >> from News Corp > >> > >> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People > >> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." > >> ... > >> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) > >> weren't misled. > > > > I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do > > read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped > > through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all > > on one line. > > > > Joel > > > > > >> GAT > >> > >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> > >>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: > >>> > >>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." > >>> > >>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal > >>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by > >>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. > >>> > >>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the > >>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; > >>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of > >>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking > >>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is > >>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, > >>> > >>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." > >>> > >>> would have been much realer. > >>> > >>> Joel > >>> > >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> George A. Thompson > >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", > Northwestern Univ. > >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 14:33:00 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:33:00 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108181329.p7IDSufC001762@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >> one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >> dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >> will count double. At least that's how the places in the respective >> S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. > > Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the > past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the > plates had different shapes that correlated with the prices. > And evidently there are current dialects that go by colors rather than shapes or numbers. Let a hundred dim sum (bill counting methods) bloom! LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 16:06:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:06:46 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.2.20110818092521.026deb28@att.net> Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 09:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >>one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >>dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >>will count double. At least that's how the places in the >>respective S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. > >Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the >past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the plates and, as Victor has reminded me, baskets ,,, >had different shapes that correlated with the prices. And, obviously, the waiter counted the baskets at the end of the meal. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 16:15:39 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:15:39 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108181607.p7IEQ1r4006908@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/18/2011 09:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >>> one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >>> dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >>> will count double. At least that's how the places in the >>> respective S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. >> >> Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the >> past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the plates > > and, as Victor has reminded me, baskets ,,, > >> had different shapes that correlated with the prices. > > And, obviously, the waiter counted the baskets at the end of the meal. > This is the practice at kaiten sushi as well (or different sized/colored plates). I recall being told that a lot of restaurants don't do it because people hide plates. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 16:22:43 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:22:43 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 02:55 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >I'm a bit concerned about this thread because many of the post do not >necessarily reflect my own experience with dim-sum. I tried to put some >notes together--some may be wrong, so feel free to correct them at any >point. > >First, the word has come to represent many things, some likely broader than >I would feel comfortable using. It refers to a style of meal, the meal >itself, items served at such a meal, items typical of such a meal but not >necessarily served at one, all Chinese savory "mini-bites" such as shao-mai >and har-gao. Furthermore, restaurants that serve such a meal are also >sometimes referred to as "dim-sum" or "dim-sum X", where X stands for >anything that traditional may identify a restaurant (e.g., restaurant, >place, joint, house). "Going for dim-sum" usually means a visit to such a >restaurant--irrespectively of whether this is a specialty of the house or a >sideline, perhaps offered only once or twice a week. And if you go to your >local Costco, you may find a plastic tray full of prepared dumplings (to be >microwaved), with a big "Dim-Sum" label across the top. I've also seen some >simple shao-mai packages labeled as "dim-sum". I imagine many of Victor's senses above would be treated by a dictionary as attributive uses. To me, dim sum are what is aet. >... >Meal content: Most of the items are quite small and served on small >plates--sometimes still inside the individual steamer baskets in which they >were prepared (if steamed). But this is by no means exclusive. Such >specialties as steamed greens, clams, jellyfish, chicken feet, etc., are >often served on larger plates and must be ordered separately. To the best of >my understanding, this is not an Americanized addition, but a part of a >traditional meal. I would argue that such dishes are not dim sum themselves, but dishes that are offered -- and sometimes selected and aet -- at "dim sum restaurants", or "dim sum meals". >... The most common >service consists of "waitresses" pushing carts around the floor of the >restaurant, each cart containing stacks of plates, usually representing a >particular kind of items. The best, and freshest and hottest, dim sum I've ever had were served at a hotel restaurant in Taipei (in the 1980s), were ordered off a menu, and were brought from the kitchen by the serving staff on trays. (They were still on small plates for each group of 2-4 identical items.) >... Not all cart contain pre-plated items. >For example, hot soy milk or hot almond-flavored "soup" may be ladled into >individual bowls at the table. This too I would not call a dim sum item. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 16:31:25 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:31:25 -0400 Subject: profanity vs. obscenity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 04:50 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >I'm also not sure where "profanity" would fit >vis-a-vis "obscenity". My experience with the Puritans says (IIRC) that they distinguished. Although the OED doesn't - see "profanity": "... a profane or obscene act or word". (It doesn't include "profane" under "obscenity".) And under "obscenity" there is a quotation that does distinguish: 1768 H. Brooke Fool of Quality III. xvi. 243 Whenever he hear'd any Profaneness or Obscenity in the Streets, he would stop to reprove and expostulate with the Offender. I wouldn't be surprised to find the distinction defined in British (or colonial) law or commentary. Blackstone, anyone? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 18:46:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:46:07 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. Message-ID: Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his girlfriend, because "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 18:53:14 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:53:14 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say > that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his > girlfriend, because > > "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." > I haven't heard that one. Besides heading "down east" (northward) in Maine, there's also the lower Cape (Cape Cod, e.g. Provincetown at the very northernmost tip) vs. the upper Cape, the latter to the south of the former. But I hadn't come across references to RI as "up" from Boston. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 19:39:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:39:07 -0400 Subject: Jersey-Shore-isms Message-ID: "Did you see the size of the _herpy_ on her lip?!" "you won't be able to get rid of him! He's like _herps_!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 19:50:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:50:16 -0400 Subject: solitaire Message-ID: Perhaps I do not understand how OED entries are constructed. But consider the following: Solitaire, n. > 3. A game which can be played by one person: > > a. One of various kinds of card-games. > > b. A game played on a board with marbles or pegs, which have to be removed > by jumping as in draughts. > Only 3.b. has citations (from 1746 to 1873). Then I come across this (Amazon.com): http://goo.gl/71vPt > There are infinite ways to play with Rory's Story Cubes. You can play > solitaire or with others. > ... > This pocket-sized creative story generator provides hours of imaginative > fun for all ages. The Story Cubes are nine dice with a different icon on > each side. Roll the cubes and look at the face up images. Pick an image that > will be the starting point for your story. > There is also an adjective entry: Obs. > Solitary, in various senses. But the latest citation on that one is 1647. Another point is that the last two citations under noun 3.b. refer to "solitaire-board". No separate subentry is listed for "solitaire board" compound, although the layout of cards in a solitaire game is often referred to as "the board" as well (also the case in other games). Under board n. 2.c. 2. c. spec. The tablet or frame on which some games are played, as > chess-board, draught-board, bagatelle-board, backgammon-board; the frame > used for scoring at cribbage. Also, the target in the game of darts. Often > fig. > Again, a restricted meaning--only the physical board is mentioned, not the layout. I suppose, one could say that "layout" is a metaphorical sense for a physical game board, but it still needs to be mentioned. Then there is the second game sense, apparently unrelated: > 3. b. In pl., playing-cards. slang. > > 1923 S. T. Felstead Underworld of London i. 11 The‥steward [at the Cardsharpers' Club] is a well-known criminal famous for his skill with the ‘boards’. > 1927 E. Wallace Mixer i. 7 The greatest and most amazingly clever card-sharp that ever handled the ‘boards’. In any case, I am somewhat confused by the "solitaire" entry. The main header has a good definition, but the split subentries are too restrictive. Shouldn't the main head be 3.a. and the other two b. and c. (all three with examples)? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 19:57:45 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:57:45 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108181332.p7IAlHXW014312@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So the whole thread was because a headline writer made a mistake by omitting a negative? DanG On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 09:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >>I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a >>crook", was that an avowal? > > Yes. But I would be very confused if I saw a headline that said > "Nixon avows crooking", or "Letter counters crooking avowal from > Nixon". (And not because it said "crooking".) > > Joel > > >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> >> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of >> the front page >> >> of today's Times, laid out thus: >> >> Letter counters >> >> hacking avowals >> >> from News Corp >> >> >> >> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >> >> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >> >> ... >> >> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >> >> weren't misled. >> > >> > I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do >> > read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped >> > through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all >> > on one line. >> > >> > Joel >> > >> > >> >> GAT >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> >> >>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: >> >>> >> >>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." >> >>> >> >>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal >> >>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by >> >>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. >> >>> >> >>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the >> >>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; >> >>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of >> >>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking >> >>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is >> >>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, >> >>> >> >>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." >> >>> >> >>> would have been much realer. >> >>> >> >>> Joel >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> George A. Thompson >> >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", >> Northwestern Univ. >> >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 18 20:21:20 2011 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:21:20 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane Message-ID: Obscene in Words and Phrases is "offensive to modesty and descensy". Profane in the same is "implying divine condemnation". But, this is early 20th century, not the 21st. DKB Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 18 21:36:58 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:36:58 -0400 Subject: darby Message-ID: "darby" = handcuffs is in HDAS, and is well covered in Green's Dictionary of Slang. The following, though, seems to be the earliest appearance in America. Moreover, all of Green's 18th C citations show the word as cant -- most of them are expressly from a "cant song" or the like. So this is the earliest appearance, it seems, in standard English. [an ad for two runaways, from Baltimore: "Richard Dawson, an English convict", and "Solomon, a Negro"] Had on when he went away, an iron collar, a darby on each leg with a chain to one of them, all double rivetted, a new felt hat, old brown cloth coat. . . . Dunlap's Pennsylvania Packet, or, the General Advertiser, May 22, 1775, p. 1 (from Readex's Early American Newspapers) GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 23:00:43 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:00:43 -0700 Subject: More lo fan(s) (1948) Message-ID: On April 2, 2005, I noted (http://ow.ly/66ZEU) that the OED does not list "lo fan." It still does not. Lisa See uses the term in three novels starting in 1995: "On Gold Mountain," "Shanghai Girls," and "Dreams of Joy: A Novel" (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=%22lo+fan%22+%22lisa+see%22). Earlier citations: 1. 1948 - lo fan "New York: confidential!" by Jack Lait, Lee Mortimer, Ziff-Davis Pub. Co., page 86 (http://ow.ly/66ZlJ) ----- The Chinese call us "white devils," _lo fan_ or or _fan guey_,… ----- 2. 1981 - lo fans "The ethnic dilemma in social services" by Shirley Jenkins, Free Press, page 116 (http://ow.ly/66Zuk) ----- …think of the future. _Lo-fans_ think only of the present." …Many Indians do receive one or another form of welfare, and many _lo-fans_ also are concerned about the future. ----- 3. 1981 - a lo fan Same book page 113 (http://ow.ly/66Zwa) ----- A Chinese mother said, "I'd rather have a _lo-fan_ who loves children than a Chinese who doesn't." ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 19 00:30:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:30:06 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 02:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Aug 18, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say > > that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his > > girlfriend, because > > > > "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." > > >I haven't heard that one. Besides heading "down east" (northward) >in Maine, there's also the lower Cape (Cape Cod, e.g. Provincetown >at the very northernmost tip) vs. the upper Cape, the latter to the >south of the former. But I hadn't come across references to RI as >"up" from Boston. I haven't heard it either. But Wilson's speaker is logical -- if Maine is down (east) from Massachusetts, then Rhode Island surely is up. As for the lower vs. upper Cape, that has always seemed logical to me. The lower Cape is further out from the main body of Massachusetts than the upper Cape, just as the lower arm is further out from the body than the upper arm. I don't try to correlate north-south with upper-lower. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 19 01:25:50 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:25:50 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. In-Reply-To: <201108190030.p7J0U6Gp016875@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 8:30 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/18/2011 02:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Aug 18, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> > Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say >> > that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his >> > girlfriend, because >> > >> > "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." >> > >> I haven't heard that one. Besides heading "down east" (northward) >> in Maine, there's also the lower Cape (Cape Cod, e.g. Provincetown >> at the very northernmost tip) vs. the upper Cape, the latter to the >> south of the former. But I hadn't come across references to RI as >> "up" from Boston. > > I haven't heard it either. But Wilson's speaker is logical -- if > Maine is down (east) from Massachusetts, then Rhode Island surely is up. > > As for the lower vs. upper Cape, that has always seemed logical to > me. The lower Cape is further out from the main body of > Massachusetts than the upper Cape, just as the lower arm is further > out from the body than the upper arm. I don't try to correlate > north-south with upper-lower. > Here's wikipedia on the topic, with more explanations than you could shake a windblown stick at (scaled maps, winds, body part metaphors)—everything but north and south, which would indeed mispredict in this case: The terms "Upper" and "Lower" derive from early usage and reliance on scaled maps and charts. When one travelled to the east, one went down the scale (toward zero at Greenwich, England). On the other hand, travel to the west was up the scale. To this day, on nearby Martha's Vineyard, "Up Island" is the western section and "Down Island" is to the east. And in Maine, the eastern portion of the state is called "Down East." Also, prevailing fair weather winds out of the southwest have been used as the basis for the designations, as winds have traditionally been a basis for directional descriptions by European settlers and their descendants in eastern North America. That is, one would be travelling "down [wind]" to the east with a westerly wind at one's back. The best known colloquial reference, however, is the "arm" shape of the peninsula as it appears on maps and charts, thus making the southern portion of the Cape the "Upper Arm", Orleans the "Elbow," and the north-south portion that is most like an Atlantic barrier island, the "Lower Arm." Some even refer to Provincetown as the "Hand," with its various points (e.g., the current Race Point, Wood End, and Long Point) as fingers. In the late nineteenth century, as the Cape began drawing more vacationers and artists on retreat, the nautical nomenclature and potential negative connotation of referring to the towns from Orleans to Provincetown as the "Lower Cape," lost favor to the simpler "Outer Cape." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Aug 19 04:57:30 2011 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:57:30 -0700 Subject: profanity vs. obscenity Message-ID: > From: "Joel S. Berson" > Date: August 18, 2011 9:31:25 AM PDT > Subject: Re: profanity vs. obscenity > > > At 8/18/2011 04:50 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >> I'm also not sure where "profanity" would fit >> vis-a-vis "obscenity". > > My experience with the Puritans says (IIRC) that they > distinguished. Although the OED doesn't - see "profanity": "... a > profane or obscene act or word". (It doesn't include "profane" under > "obscenity".) And under "obscenity" there is a quotation that does > distinguish: > > 1768 H. Brooke Fool of Quality III. xvi. 243 Whenever he hear'd > any Profaneness or Obscenity in the Streets, he would stop to reprove > and expostulate with the Offender. > > I wouldn't be surprised to find the distinction defined in British > (or colonial) law or commentary. Blackstone, anyone? > > Joel There's a very good discussion of this in Joss Marsh's Word Crimes (Chicago 1998). The crucial legal distinction is between obscenity and blasphemy, which was the historical basis for condemning profanity. The blurring of the boundaries began in the mid-eighteenth century, he says, when e.g. Wilkes' Essay on Woman was deemed both obscene and impious. Later, "blasphemy was submerged in obscentity" in the 19th c. (p 208 ff): "In the mid-nineteenth century mundane circumstances seemed to conspire to produce it. Smutty and irreligious books looked the same, for a start. Both were sold under the counter, clandestinely. Both were denied the protection of copyright. Sentences for obscenity tended to be lighter;.. By the mid-nineteenth century, obscenity like blasphemy had undergone two centuries' parallel progress from religious 'sin' to secular 'crime.'" There's also one-stop shopping on this in Leonard Levy's book Blasphemy (Knopf 1993). The extension of 'profanity' to other than religiously based oaths is quite late, I think. The earliest cite that makes this use explicit in the OED is from a 1969 letter from Hunter S Thompson ("I was particularly struck by the fact that you ‘take exception to the profanities utilized in (my) letter’‥. and to that I can only say Fuck Off"). But Burgess Johnson, a critic who had earlier written a nostalgic book called The Lost Art of Profanity, in which the term referred only to damn, hell, etc., wrote dismissively of WWII solider talk in a 1954 NYT article: "The profanity of the army is a poverty-stricken thing… current profanity consists of a pitifully small supply of words used an astonishing number of times, even in a brief conversation." In the context, 'profanity' can only have referred to obscene words. That use probably goes back earlier than this but by not a whole lot, I would guess. Actually the OED's def is a little misleading here. It gives as part of the general meaning, " a profane or obscene act or word (freq. in pl.," but that meaning wasn't operative until the mid-20th century: at the time of the earlier cites, the term didn't comprehend obscene acts. This is a type of anachronism I've run into before, but I can certainly appreciate the dilemma these words pose for the definers. Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK Fri Aug 19 09:13:26 2011 From: D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:13:26 +0100 Subject: obscene vs. profane Message-ID: David said: 'Obscene in Words and Phrases is "offensive to modesty and descensy". Profane in the same is "implying divine condemnation". But, this is early 20th century, not the 21st.' So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that term), there are: * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as meaning a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' refers specifically to an offence against a divinity; * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' together (as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its own as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' more nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, maybe that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or 'profane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least one of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these threads, though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting opinions or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, whether any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three have distinct meanings (for at least some people). Damien -- Damien Hall University of Kent (UK) Leverhulme Early Career Fellow, 'Towards a New Linguistic Atlas of France' English Language and Linguistics, School of European Culture and Languages ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 09:21:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 05:21:38 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane In-Reply-To: <201108190913.p7J0FtaW014312@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I like this division. It answers a part of my question (along with all the other responses). And, I suspect, I belong to the same set for adjectives, but not for nouns. (That is, I would NOT group blasphemy and profanity together.) VS-) On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > > So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that > term), there are: > > > * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as > meaning= > a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' > ref= > ers specifically to an offence against a divinity; > > * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' together > (= > as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its > ow= > n as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? > > I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' more > = > nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, > may= > be that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or > 'prof= > ane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least > one= > of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these > threads,= > though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting > opinion= > s or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, > whether= > any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three have > = > distinct meanings (for at least some people). > > Damien ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 12:56:39 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:56:39 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane In-Reply-To: <201108190921.p7J53fWE030270@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Missourian William W. Hunter wrote from near Placea, N.M., on July 21, 1849, that the men he knew JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:21 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: obscene vs. profane > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I like this division. It answers a part of my question (along with all the > other responses). And, I suspect, I belong to the same set for adjectives, > but not for nouns. (That is, I would NOT group blasphemy and profanity > together.) > > VS-) > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > > > > > So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that > > term), there are: > > > > > > * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as > > meaning= > > a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' > > ref= > > ers specifically to an offence against a divinity; > > > > * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' together > > (= > > as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its > > ow= > > n as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? > > > > I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' > more > > = > > nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, > > may= > > be that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or > > 'prof= > > ane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least > > one= > > of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these > > threads,= > > though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting > > opinion= > > s or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, > > whether= > > any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three > have > > = > > distinct meanings (for at least some people). > > > > Damien > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 13:02:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:02:25 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I meant to hit "discard" on that. It was an 1849 ex. of "profane songs" that I decided was more likely to mean "secular" than "obscene." JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Missourian William W. Hunter wrote from near Placea, N.M., on July 21, > 1849, that the men he knew > > > JL > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:21 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: victor steinbok >> Subject: Re: obscene vs. profane >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I like this division. It answers a part of my question (along with all the >> other responses). And, I suspect, I belong to the same set for adjectives, >> but not for nouns. (That is, I would NOT group blasphemy and profanity >> together.) >> >> VS-) >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote: >> >> > >> > So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that >> > term), there are: >> > >> > >> > * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as >> > meaning= >> > a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' >> > ref= >> > ers specifically to an offence against a divinity; >> > >> > * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' >> together >> > (= >> > as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its >> > ow= >> > n as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? >> > >> > I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' >> more >> > = >> > nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, >> > may= >> > be that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or >> > 'prof= >> > ane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least >> > one= >> > of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these >> > threads,= >> > though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting >> > opinion= >> > s or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, >> > whether= >> > any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three >> have >> > = >> > distinct meanings (for at least some people). >> > >> > Damien >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 13:40:02 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:40:02 -0400 Subject: "staged" Message-ID: A lot of people believe that Joe Rosenthal's famous photo of the flag-raising on Mt. Suribachi was "staged." In fact, somebody wrote to the _New Yorker_ recently to make that claim and the editors printed the letter. Without going in to the details of the non-"staged" Suribachi photo, I direct your attention to the following: "As for whether or not the photo was staged, Craig says no way. 'The big debate about the picture, which everyone always wants to know, is: Was it staged? No! No, no, no! You don't have 15 men in a picture and take just two shots. The men were just there . . . . The only thing that happened was that Ruth Orkin was wise enough to ask me to turn around and go back and repeat' the walk down the street." The photo in question is here: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/american-girl-italy-60-years-later-221005987.html The issue in both cases is the meaning of "staged." To me, a photo is staged if conditions are carefully created by the photographer to make a stunning photograph. That was certainly not the case on Iwo Jima. As for the photo of the Ninalee Craig: the fact that Ruth Orkin had her subject walk down the same street in front of the same men a second time, for the specific purpose of making a photo, comes awfully damned close. It is not, as is usually assumed, simply a candid shot of an American girl on an Italian street. Compared to the Suribachi shot, the street scene was very much staged. Of course, neither was "posed," which may be what people are confusing "staged" with. I raise the point because issues of what's real and what's Memorex are becoming ever more significant. JL JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 15:27:13 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:27:13 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" Message-ID: YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated to the Vietnam years. That's when I first heard it. However: Library of Congress Catalog of Copyright Entries: Musical Compositions, Pt. 3, 1941, p. 939: "Love America or leave it alone: w & m Clarence Gaskill, co. May 28, 1941....Saintly-Joy-Select, Inc., 1941." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 18:35:35 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:35:35 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191527.p7JAotrg017264@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated to > the Vietnam years. > > That's when I first heard it. Yes, but I've always interpreted _leave it_ as "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" / "get TF OUT!" whereas "leave it alone" seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 18:58:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:58:38 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191836.p7JEq9tb015472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're right about the short form, Wilson. I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker use. But I digress: 1930 Dr. L. H. Beeler, Grove City College, in _Simpsons' Leader-Times_ (Kittanning, Pa.) (Oct. 29) 1 (NewspaperArchive): Secretary Davis says there are six million aliens in this country who do not want to become American citizens. They come here for three reasons: to spread propoganda [sic], to exploit America, and to encourage financial assistance. If this country is not good enough for them to make it their home, they should be sent back to stay forever. They are working destruction against our institutions and dismembering our ideals and destroying America. The solution to this problem is not difficult - love it or leave it - be loyal or disappear. Beeler was also disturbed by kids at the movies who cheered antisocial acts and by movies that "catered to sex, disloyalty, the broken home, or bootlegging." JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated > to > > the Vietnam years. > > > > That's when I first heard it. > > Yes, but I've always interpreted > > _leave it_ > > as > > "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" > / "get TF OUT!" > > whereas > > "leave it alone" > > seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. > More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 19:04:10 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:04:10 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IN GIANT PRINT: "AMERICA!...LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT "If they don't like it here, why don't they leave?" [Etc., etc.] --_Gettysburg Times_, July 16, 1940, p. 5 (NewspaperArchive) JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're right about the short form, Wilson. > > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > > Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on > the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker > use. > > But I digress: > > 1930 Dr. L. H. Beeler, Grove City College, in _Simpsons' Leader-Times_ > (Kittanning, Pa.) (Oct. 29) 1 (NewspaperArchive): Secretary Davis says there > are six million aliens in this country who do not want to become American > citizens. They come here for three reasons: to spread propoganda [sic], to > exploit America, and to encourage financial assistance. If this country is > not good enough for them to make it their home, they should be sent back to > stay forever. They are working destruction against our institutions and > dismembering our ideals and destroying America. The solution to this problem > is not difficult - love it or leave it - be loyal or disappear. > > Beeler was also disturbed by kids at the movies who cheered antisocial acts > and by movies that "catered to sex, disloyalty, the broken home, or > bootlegging." > > JL > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated >> to >> > the Vietnam years. >> > >> > That's when I first heard it. >> >> Yes, but I've always interpreted >> >> _leave it_ >> >> as >> >> "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" >> / "get TF OUT!" >> >> whereas >> >> "leave it alone" >> >> seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. >> More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 19:12:30 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:12:30 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191904.p7JEq91P015472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: After a number of prewar exx., NewspaperArchive shows a huge "Love it or leave it" gap between 1941 and 1970. JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IN GIANT PRINT: > > "AMERICA!...LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT > > "If they don't like it here, why don't they leave?" [Etc., etc.] > > --_Gettysburg Times_, July 16, 1940, p. 5 (NewspaperArchive) > > JL > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter >wrote: > > > You're right about the short form, Wilson. > > > > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. > YBQ > > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > > > > Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on > > the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > > conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive > bumper-sticker > > use. > > > > But I digress: > > > > 1930 Dr. L. H. Beeler, Grove City College, in _Simpsons' Leader-Times_ > > (Kittanning, Pa.) (Oct. 29) 1 (NewspaperArchive): Secretary Davis says > there > > are six million aliens in this country who do not want to become American > > citizens. They come here for three reasons: to spread propoganda [sic], > to > > exploit America, and to encourage financial assistance. If this country > is > > not good enough for them to make it their home, they should be sent back > to > > stay forever. They are working destruction against our institutions and > > dismembering our ideals and destroying America. The solution to this > problem > > is not difficult - love it or leave it - be loyal or disappear. > > > > Beeler was also disturbed by kids at the movies who cheered antisocial > acts > > and by movies that "catered to sex, disloyalty, the broken home, or > > bootlegging." > > > > JL > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Wilson Gray > >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter > >> wrote: > >> > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," > dated > >> to > >> > the Vietnam years. > >> > > >> > That's when I first heard it. > >> > >> Yes, but I've always interpreted > >> > >> _leave it_ > >> > >> as > >> > >> "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" > >> / "get TF OUT!" > >> > >> whereas > >> > >> "leave it alone" > >> > >> seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. > >> More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 19 19:13:42 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:13:42 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're right about the short form, Wilson. > > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > > Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on > the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker > use. I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors there. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 19:31:31 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:31:31 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191913.p7JAotBo017264@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in Vietnam. DanG On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> You're right about the short form, Wilson. >> >> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ >> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar >> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. >> >> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on >> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that >> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker >> use. > > I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors there. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 20:21:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:21:08 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191932.p7JAotDK017264@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see that Russell Baker reported the existence of an "America! Love It or Leave It!" bumper sticker in NYT on Oct. 1, 1968. He thought it a novelty. That's after the riot and (heh-heh) almost 1969. JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing > the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to > follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in > Vietnam. > > DanG > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >> You're right about the short form, Wilson. > >> > >> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. > YBQ > >> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > >> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > >> > >> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came > on > >> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > >> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive > bumper-sticker > >> use. > > > > I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic > Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that > crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors > there. > > > > LH > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 20:22:14 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:22:14 -0400 Subject: "You'll get the _top-of-the-notch_ audio quality." [NT] Message-ID: Eh, it's an example. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 20:27:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:27:13 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191858.p7JHmev4017687@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > Uh, well, yes. I understood that. But, you know, like, sometimes, I get what, IIRC, The Woman's Home Companion called an _IMP-pulse_. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 19 21:06:11 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:06:11 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' Message-ID: Not quite plastic surgery, but perhaps a predecessor: In the 1963 movie "Mary, Mary", in the scene where Mary (Debbie Reynolds) first appears, newly beautiful, about 15 minutes in, one of the male characters remarks on her new appearance, "Clearly what we have is a bit of work." The work referred to includes hair, dress, powder, and one or two other things I didn't catch because they were named before my ears caught the "bit of work" quote; I can't say therefore whether anything in the line of surgery -- such as a remodeled nose or chin -- was actually mentioned. "Bit of work" seems to have been common in that period as a reference to various kinds of surgery. That suggests to me that one of the "improvements" I don't remember may have been plastic surgery. The movie is based on the Jean Kerr play of 1961. I haven't found the scripts for either. Joel On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:22:07 -0400 Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Me too. Ten years? More? > >JL > >On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > > Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar > > with this usage for years. > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > >> Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] > > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: work 'plastic surgery' > > > > Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such > > discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary > > either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had > > some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has > > undergone surgical improvement." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Aug 19 22:16:34 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:16:34 -0500 Subject: Green's Dictionary: "top apple" and one more "big apple" attestation Message-ID: _Green's Dictionary of Slang_, 2010, (by Jonathon Green) is massive (3 volumes, about a thousand pages each).I don't know how he did it, but our field owes a deep debt of gratitude both to him and his uncle whose bequest made Green's magnum opus possible. (Green warmly pays tribute for this in his preface.) Now, for the archives, a bit more information on "the big apple". --- Green's dictionary contains a few previously unnoticed relevant attestations for this term with the meaning "an important person"): 1) Two quotes for "top apple" (an important person); I had not previously come across this entry: 1906 E. DYSON _Fact'ry 'Ands_ 1: She's [...] their top apple, th' ole blessed cake-walk, 'n' straight ez er church. 1956: 'ED LACY' _Men From the Boys_ (1967) 76: For once I want to nail down a big boy, a top apple. And there's one specifically for 'the big apple": 1955 'ED LACY' _Best that Ever Did It_ (1957) 153: Franzino was there, along with two big apples from the Police Department. Incidentally, Green says of 'big apple' and 'top apple' that they are 'US Underworld' -- 'US' is correct, but 'the big apple' (important person or thing) was not limited to the underworld. Gerald Cohen Co-author with Barry Popik of _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple"_ (Frankfurt a. M.: Peter Lang), 2nd edition. 2011. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 22:15:59 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:15:59 -0400 Subject: Judge Judy: "There was a gate. They had somebody there in a _stiff collar_. Nobody got past that gate." Message-ID: Thus spake the judge, reminiscing about her women's-dorm years. Back in Saint Louis we used the term, "stiff _shirt_," to name a starched, collared, white dress-shirt always worn with jacket and tie - in those days, at least - the kind called a _waishatsu_ in Japanese. It's not clear whether Judge Judy's "stiff collar" and my "stiff shirt" have the same meaning. But, WTF, eh? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 23:03:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 19:03:13 -0400 Subject: "=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A6talk_?=about me and say all *kinds* of this, that, and the _third_!" Message-ID: Mid-thirty-ish black dude complaining to Judge Greg that his woman let her friends disrespect him and made no effort to defend his rep. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 23:41:30 2011 From: b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 19:41:30 -0400 Subject: On the early days of Philadelphia's Black Friday (ca. 1960) Message-ID: In 1994, Joseph P. Barrett, longtime reporter for *The Philadelphia Bulletin*, wrote a piece for *The Philadelphia Inquirer* [1] on the origin of "Black Friday." Along with a fellow reporter, he seems to have had a major role in popularizing the expression in the city in the early 1960s. Barrett's reminiscence not only lists why police officers had dubbed the day after Thanksgiving "Black Friday" (including that all traffic cops had to report for 12-hour shifts that day), but also describes merchants' displeasure with the term and the city's consequent attempt to rename the day. --------------------------- [Excerpted from "This Friday Was Black with Traffic," 25 November 1994.] http://articles.philly.com/1994-11-25/news/25869629_1_traffic-cop-block-traffic-traffic-policeman In 1959, the old Evening Bulletin assigned me to police administration, working out of City Hall. Nathan Kleger was the police reporter who covered Center City for the Bulletin. In the early 1960s, Kleger and I put together a front-page story for Thanksgiving and we appropriated the police term "Black Friday" to describe the terrible traffic conditions. Center City merchants complained loudly to Police Commissioner Albert N. Brown that drawing attention to traffic deterred customers from coming downtown. I was worried that maybe Kleger and I had made a mistake in using such a term, so I went to Chief Inspector Albert Trimmer to get him to verify it. Trimmer, tongue in cheek, would say only that Black Friday was used to describe the Valentine's Day massacre of mobsters in Chicago. The following year, Brown put out a press release describing the day as ''Big Friday." But Kleger and I held our ground, and once more said it was ''Black Friday." And of course we used it year after year. --------------------------- This 1994 account of the city's attempt to sell everyone on "Big Friday" fits nicely with an overly optimistic blurb that had appeared in a December, 1961 issue of *Public Relations News*. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1105A&L=ADS-L&P=R15910 -- Bonnie [1] Or *The Philadelphia Daily News*. It's a little unclear to me where this originally appeared, but I'm awaiting confirmation of source. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 20 01:14:53 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:14:53 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I see that Russell Baker reported the existence of an "America! Love It or > Leave It!" bumper sticker in NYT on Oct. 1, 1968. He thought it a novelty. > > That's after the riot and (heh-heh) almost 1969. > Well, yes, but if it was showing up in greater New York in October, think how much earlier it was showing up in the real America!! LH > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing >> the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to >> follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in >> Vietnam. >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> You're right about the short form, Wilson. >>>> >>>> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. >> YBQ >>>> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar >>>> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. >>>> >>>> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came >> on >>>> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that >>>> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive >> bumper-sticker >>>> use. >>> >>> I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic >> Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that >> crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors >> there. >>> >>> LH >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 20 15:46:06 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 11:46:06 -0400 Subject: Freudian Message-ID: There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only "Of or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" under compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. Examples: http://goo.gl/o6m9z > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" that > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). http://goo.gl/ogFo6 p. 79 New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, mothering). Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 20 16:38:13 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:38:13 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: <201108201546.p7KAubsJ001397@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been using "Freudian" in these senses since the early 1960s. When I first heard about Freud. JL On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:46 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Freudian > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only > "Of > or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" > under > compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. > > Examples: > > http://goo.gl/o6m9z > > > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" > that > > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). > > > http://goo.gl/ogFo6 > p. 79 > New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 > Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is > brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the > lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, > mothering). > > Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 04:52:41 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 00:52:41 -0400 Subject: cookies and related stuff Message-ID: What got me going here is the OED definition of a "ginger snap": ginger-snap n. (a) a thin brittle cake flavoured with ginger, (b) (U.S.) a > hot-tempered person, esp. one with carroty hair. OK, I expect "cookie" to be a disfavored term in the OED definition, as it is mostly US (although, I'm sure, it would have showed up in many other places, by now). But, if not cookie, then "biscuit", right? Of course, cookie is also defined as "cake". I am not going to get into an extended discussion of the gaudy "current sense" definition of "cake": A composition having a basis of bread, but containing additional > ingredients, as butter, sugar, spices, currants, raisins, etc. At first, > this was a cake also in form, but it is no longer necessarily so, being now > made of any serviceable, ornamental, or fanciful shape; e.g. a tea-, plum-, > wedding-cake, etc. This was written by someone who's never set his foot in a kitchen or a bakery. There are two kinds of "cakes"--the country/home variety (e.g., ring cake, coffee cake, cream cake, perhaps even bundt cake) and layer cake--the Paris/Viennese variety (layered with creams, fruit fillings, nuts, chocolate, etc.), German chocolate cake, etc. Only one of these resembles "bread" in any way. The other may have "dough" at one stage, but it's not "bread dough" by any stretch of imagination (and some varieties have no flour or dough in them at all!). Items missing under "cookie": cookie-press (a bit more recent than cookie-cutter, but still quite common--a "gun" or a syringe with a cookie-cutter opening, similar to a pastry bag) cookie dough (straight forward, but still used as a combination--one quotation under "paddle") cookie jar (shows up in 5 quotations, but no entry) cookie sheet (flat baking "pan" with no banked edges, as opposed to "jelly-roll sheet/pan" which is flat with raised edges) cookie exchange/swap (exchanging of home-made cookies at Christmas) Other missing cookies: butter cookies--cookies where butter (or butter substitute) is a main ingredient refrigerator/icebox cookies--cookie dough that prepared in advance, refrigerated, then sliced and baked; also, cookie dough sold pre-packaged in supermarkets Christmas/holiday cookies (?) Sadwich cookies are listed--and one of the quotations mentions "chocolate peanut butter cookies". New Year cookies can be found within the definition of New Year (attrib.). Springerle and Springerle cookies are in the same entry (springerle). But Speculaas--which is the Dutch version that is arguably better known--has no entry and not even a single citation. I am not sure if other ingredient-based combinations deserve an entry, such as oatmeal cookies, chocolate cookies, vanilla cookies. But ginger cookie is listed, so why not others? So is molasses cookie. So is "poppy-seed cookie" under attrib. (cake, cookie, roll, etc.). "Chocolate-chip cookie" is under "chocolate", right next to "chocolate cream" (see below) and "chocolate biscuit". Oreo is listed, along with "oreo cookie" 1. orig. U.S. A proprietary name for: a type of black chocolate sandwich > biscuit filled with a white vanilla cream. Also freq. in Oreo cookie. Toll House cookies are listed. Ginger snap is listed as "cake", not "cookie" or "biscuit" (see above). "Vanilla wafer" shows up in a quotation under wafer==ice-cream sandwich, but not as a cookie: 1. b. ellipt., a sandwich of ice-cream between wafers. Cream has no subentry for a variety of filled cookies or biscuits. "Cream cookie" has no entry at all, although "cream cracker" is described as an "unsweetened biscuit" (not the same thing--"cream cookies" are sandwich cookies that have a creamy filling, rather than one of fruit jelly or solid chocolate). No "cream filling" either. Vanilla cream is mentioned in the Oreo lemma, but has no separate entry. Chocolate cream covers both the cream and the candy/confection with cream filling. But when someone refers to boxed chocolates with cream filling as "creams", he better not look for it in the OED--it's not there. Pillow cookies/biscuits don't exist, as far as OED is concerned. Several idiomatic uses are not covered either. "Tough cookie" shows up in 4 separate citations, but has no entry. But "to toss one's cookies" is covered--well, one made it. On the other hand, since "cookie jar" is not there, nor is "[caught with/got one's] hand in the cookie jar". VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 04:57:35 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 00:57:35 -0400 Subject: cookies and related stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more thing--no cookies-and-cream, which is a fairly recent invention (1970s), first, as an ice cream flavor, then spreading to other concoctions (cakes, shakes, candy flavor, brownie-like bar cookies, etc.). See Wiki article for details. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 21 05:09:33 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 22:09:33 -0700 Subject: cookies and related stuff In-Reply-To: <201108210452.p7KAlmqT030065@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Black and white cookie" surely merits an entry as the meaning cannot be derived from the words alone. "Sugar cookie" is a subentry under sugar. "Madeleine" and "macaroon" are both listed. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 20, 2011, at 9:52 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Other missing cookies: > > butter cookies--cookies where butter (or butter substitute) is a main > ingredient > refrigerator/icebox cookies--cookie dough that prepared in advance, > refrigerated, then sliced and baked; also, cookie dough sold pre-packaged in > supermarkets > Christmas/holiday cookies (?) > > Sadwich cookies are listed--and one of the quotations mentions "chocolate > peanut butter cookies". New Year cookies can be found within the definition > of New Year (attrib.). Springerle and Springerle cookies are in the same > entry (springerle). But Speculaas--which is the Dutch version that is > arguably better known--has no entry and not even a single citation. > > > I am not sure if other ingredient-based combinations deserve an entry, such > as oatmeal cookies, chocolate cookies, vanilla cookies. But ginger cookie is > listed, so why not others? So is molasses cookie. So is "poppy-seed cookie" > under attrib. (cake, cookie, roll, etc.). "Chocolate-chip cookie" is under > "chocolate", right next to "chocolate cream" (see below) and "chocolate > biscuit". ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 06:56:49 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 02:56:49 -0400 Subject: cookies and related stuff In-Reply-To: <201108210509.p7KAlmr9030065@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Madeleine definition is interesting in that it mentions "decorated with coconut and jam". That must be English tradition, as it certainly does not come from the French. Biscotti also has an entry, but under singular "biscotto"--something that is rarely scene outside of Italian restaurant dessert menus. It is also unclear because of the ambiguity of "cake" whether waffle n. a. includes both the American breakfast variety (clearly in 1870 and 1893 quotations--basically a stamped pancake) and the cookie-like variety (possibly in the 1809 and 1817 quotations). a. A kind of batter-cake, baked in a waffle-iron, and eaten hot with butter > or molasses. > 1744 [see waffle frolic n. at Compounds 1]. 1794 [see waffle-iron n. at > Compounds 2]. > 1809 A. Burr Private Jrnl. 26 Aug. (1903) I. 214 Everywhere, too, you > get wafen; our wafles, and made and eaten in the same way. > 1817 M. Birkbeck Notes Journey Amer. (1818) 64 Waffles (a soft hot > cake of German extraction, covered with butter). > 1870 D. Macrae Amer. at Home I. 291 The Americans are all fond of > molasses; using them regularly at breakfast and supper to their buckwheat > cakes and waffles. > 1893 T. N. Page In Ole Virginia 221 He ordered waffles and hoe-cakes > for breakfast. Snickerdoodle has an entry as well. Stroopwafel has no entry--which I actually don't have a problem with, except that the etymology note on "waffle" mentions " than rolled cookies. "Rolled" may be sufficient as is. "Drop-cake" is listed under "drop-". Bar cookies are not mentioned at all. In fact, there is nothing under "bar" that pertains to baked goods. Wiki lists 7 main varieties by type of preparation: drop, refrigerator, rolled, molded, pressed, bar and sandwich. About.com lists the same categories. Other sites add "no-bake" and "cookie-cutter", but these are just variations on "molded" and "icebox/refrigerator". VS-) > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 1:09 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > "Black and white cookie" surely merits an entry as the meaning cannot be > derived from the words alone. > > "Sugar cookie" is a subentry under sugar. "Madeleine" and "macaroon" are > both listed. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 21 12:52:23 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:52:23 +0000 Subject: Freudian Message-ID: These examples all fall well within the "pertaining to Freud's teachings" so a separate definition is unnecessary. Of course, there is often disagreement about what is or is not lexicosemantic and what is encyclopedic. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: victor steinbok To: Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:46:06 AM GMT-0400 Subject: [ADS-L] Freudian There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only "Of or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" under compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. Examples: http://goo.gl/o6m9z > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" that > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). http://goo.gl/ogFo6 p. 79 New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, mothering). Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 14:13:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:13:01 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: <201108211251.p7LCpupt018051@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: When someone says, "According to Freudian analysis...", that's "pertaining to Freud. On the other hand, when he says, "That looks so Freudian," and means that there is a phallic image, that's not "pertaining to Freud", no matter how that expression might have been derived. VS-) On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > These examples all fall well within the "pertaining to Freud's teachings" > so a separate definition is unnecessary. Of course, there is often > disagreement about what is or is not lexicosemantic and what is > encyclopedic. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: victor steinbok > To: > Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:46:06 AM GMT-0400 > Subject: [ADS-L] Freudian > > There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only > "Of > or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" > under > compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. > > Examples: > > http://goo.gl/o6m9z > > > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" > that > > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). > > > http://goo.gl/ogFo6 > p. 79 > New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 > Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is > brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the > lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, > mothering). > > Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 21 15:16:10 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:16:10 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet Message-ID: Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 15:35:38 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:35:38 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <201108211516.p7LFGBEK030907@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > Joel > A song would be nice too; we could teach it in phonetics classes. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 21 17:46:18 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 13:46:18 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I guess if there are people around who think that "Freudian" means simply "phallic," then OK. But I doubt that it is that simple for most people. At any rate, people who speak of a "Freudian slip" aren't thinking of a penis popping out of someone's pants. A doughnut can be "Freudian." Grapefruit can be "Freudian." Nuts can be "Freudian." Shoving a banana in a milk jug can be "Freudian." KIlling your Dad and marrying your Mom can be "Freudian." It is not so much derivation as it is nonce synecdoche. On Aug 21, 2011, at 10:13 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > When someone says, "According to Freudian analysis...", that's "pertaining to Freud. On the other hand, when he says, "That looks so Freudian," and means that there is a phallic image, that's not "pertaining to Freud", no matter how that expression might have been derived. > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 17:55:30 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 13:55:30 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: <201108211746.p7LBCU8P012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I thought that was Oedipal ;-) VS-) On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ... KIlling your Dad and marrying your Mom can be "Freudian." > > It is not so much derivation as it is nonce synecdoche. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Sun Aug 21 19:47:59 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:47:59 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <201108211516.p7LB70tg006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" has a new (to me, at least) member. Neal On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Aug 21 19:54:50 2011 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:54:50 -0500 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <29C78863-3937-43B7-948D-F3D63BF74B05@ameritech.net> Message-ID: Not necessarily since the A in IPA can stand for Association. ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Neal Whitman [nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:47 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Sorting the IPA alphabet I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" has a new (to me, at least) member. Neal On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 19:58:49 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:58:49 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" Message-ID: The article's too brief to be of real interest, but, WTF? http://goo.gl/uZIgu -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 20:02:45 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:02:45 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <8B217194D8467B41983FB1D628DE01D55C86242CF7@UM-EMAIL02.um.umsystem.edu> Message-ID: And all three letters can stand for India Pale Ale, the official brew of the phonetics association. (Or it should be.) LH On Aug 21, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > Not necessarily since the A in IPA can stand for Association. > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Neal Whitman [nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET] > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:47 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Sorting the IPA alphabet > > I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" has a new (to me, at least) member. > > Neal > > On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin >> alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 21 20:02:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:02:42 -0400 Subject: IPA[lphabet] alphabet In-Reply-To: <8B217194D8467B41983FB1D628DE01D55C86242CF7@UM-EMAIL02.um.u msystem.edu> Message-ID: Not much different from "MLB Baseball" and "MLS Soccer", which moi has complained about here. :-) But thanks for the save, Matthew. Joel At 8/21/2011 03:54 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >Not necessarily since the A in IPA can stand for Association. >________________________________________ >From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Neal Whitman [nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET] >Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:47 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Sorting the IPA alphabet > >I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" >has a new (to me, at least) member. > >Neal > >On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 20:10:21 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:10:21 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > The article's too brief to be of real interest, but, WTF? > > http://goo.gl/uZIgu > > -- > -Wilson > —— I was thinking at first that it might refer to a place festooned with growlers, which constitute a new old tradition of their own, as we may or may not have discussed here a while back: cf. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/dining/27growl.html. This time through the article, I was struck by what to me is a marginal use of the personal dative—not in Ms. Thorpe's attitude toward football, but toward Coors Light: “Good beer makes everything more special,” Ms. Thorpe said while stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. “I like me some football, but I don’t like me some Coors Light. So I’m ensuring I will be happy this afternoon.” LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 20:52:31 2011 From: martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM (Martin Kaminer) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:52:31 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: <201108211959.p7LBCUBR012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The article clearly shows the true cost of removing these words from the dictionary: the first two links in the second paragraph lead nowhere because . .. Growlery is misspelled! On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The article's too brief to be of real interest, but, WTF? > > http://goo.gl/uZIgu > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 21:38:14 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:38:14 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: <201108212010.p7LBCUCB012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while > stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I > like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So I'm > ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. > "_some_"?!!! Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing "Can't _nobody_ …" into "Can't _anybody_ …" produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. And who knows exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double negative in order to make everything cool. And it's probably only my personal background that makes the use of _some_ in place of _no_ in this structure feel like a harbinger of the end of the English language as we know it. Well, given that language probably mutates even more quickly than the influenza virus, I'm probably indeed seeing a harbinger of the end of the (standard American-)English language as _I_ know it! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 22:31:16 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:31:16 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <200807020305.m61I2wdG002955@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: > But in general, > when quoting a lyric, even if you're not *exactly* sure what it is, should > you trust your ear, or go with an online source many other people apparently > agree upon? i say, "Go with your ear." That way, you don't make mistakes like citing "I've got to keep to the highway" as the opening line of the blues classic, [I Got the] Key to the Highway. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 23:17:43 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 19:17:43 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: >> But in general, >> when quoting a lyric, even if you're not *exactly* sure what it is, should >> you trust your ear, or go with an online source many other people apparently >> agree upon? > > i say, "Go with your ear." > > That way, you don't make mistakes like citing > > "I've got to keep to the highway" > > as the opening line of the blues classic, > > [I Got the] Key to the Highway. > Showing an ignorance not only of Little Walter and Big Bill Broonzy but of Eric (a.k.a. Derek) Clapton, not to mention Arlo Guthrie. Seems it was written and first recorded by William Charles Segar in 1940, who I'd never heard of, but at least I did know it was "Key" (or "Keys") and not "Keep". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 23:32:27 2011 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:32:27 -0500 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108212232.p7LBCUEL012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We were just arguing this on Facebook: I always hear that line in Electric Light Orchestra's Blinded by the Light as "wrapped up like a douche, another runner in the night" but was informed that it was "like a deuce" talking about auto racing... Darla Wells 2011/8/21 Wilson Gray > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Marc Velasco > wrote: > > But in general, > > when quoting a lyric, even if you're not *exactly* sure what it is, > should > > you trust your ear, or go with an online source many other people > apparently > > agree upon? > > i say, "Go with your ear." > > That way, you don't make mistakes like citing > > "I've got to keep to the highway" > > as the opening line of the blues classic, > > [I Got the] Key to the Highway. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 23:49:55 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 19:49:55 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while >> stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I >> like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So I'm >> ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. >> > > "_some_"?!!! > > Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing > > "Can't _nobody_ …" > > into > > "Can't _anybody_ …" > > produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. Well, it will produce a perfectly acceptable but different non-standard prescriptivist-no-doubt-upsetting string. There are papers describing this non-concordial "negative declarative inversion" in white Alabama and west Texas speech, and it probably pops up elsewhere. According to what I've read (this is also discussed under Negative Inversion at the Yale Grammatical Diversity site mentioned earlier: http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/negative-inversion), African American English speakers tend to insist on negative concord when inverting, even if they vary concord use in other constructions. > And who knows > exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the > impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double > negative in order to make everything cool. I'd attribute it to a side-effect of the "I love me some X" snowclone that's been running rampant among otherwise non-native personal dative speakers since Toni Braxton's hit recording of "I Love Me Some Him". So the "some" (which may or may not contribute any meaning in such cases) is preserved even under negation rather than switching to "no" (or "any"). In fact, negative occurrences of PDs are somewhat rare when they're not immediately primed as above ("I like me some X, but I don't like/hate me some/any/no Y"). I did the comparison counts on these for a paper awhile back and the contrasts are dramatic. > And it's probably only my > personal background that makes the use of _some_ in place of _no_ in > this structure feel like a harbinger of the end of the English > language as we know it. Well, it's certainly a sign of weakening constraints on the established dialect construction in question. I don't think that's the case with "Can't anybody please him". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 00:03:03 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:03:03 -0400 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) Message-ID: OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so indecent. Likewise in an earlier appearance: 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 87: Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally bayonet every f--t-r of you. Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 00:32:52 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:32:52 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" Message-ID: Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 190: Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek music, to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 22 00:51:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:51:56 -0400 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so > indecent. > > Likewise in an earlier appearance: > > 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 87: > Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally > bayonet every f--t-r of you. > > Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. > If we don't count "John le Fucker" from the 13th c. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 01:46:21 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 21:46:21 -0400 Subject: Idiom: crawl back into the woodwork (antedating OED to 1933 August; Dorothy Parker) Message-ID: The OED (2nd edition) contains the phrase(s) listed below under the noun woodwork: d. Phr. to come or crawl out of the woodwork and varr., to come out of hiding; to emerge from obscurity. So to crawl (back) into the woodwork and varr., to disappear The first citation is dated 1964. The phrase is also listed in the Oxford Dictionary of English Idioms without a dated cite. Below is an example attributed to Dorothy Parker in 1933 in Cosmopolitan. The words also appeared in Alexander Woollcott's famous profile of Parker in 1934. The Reader's Digest gave the phrase wide circulation by quoting Parker in 1934. Cite: 1933 August, Hearst’s International-Cosmopolitan, [Hearst's International combined with Cosmopolitan], “Our Mrs. Parker” by Alexander Woollcott, Page 90, Column 1, International Magazine Co., New York. (Verified with photocopies; Great thanks to the helpful librarians) The other guests were all of the kind who wear soiled batik and bathe infrequently, if ever. I could not help wondering how Nellie managed to round them up, and where they might be found at other times. Mrs. Parker looked at them pensively. "I think," she whispered, "that they crawl back into the woodwork." Here is the citation for Woollcott's collection of short pieces that was published the next year. Cite: 1934, While Rome Burns by Alexander Woollcott, Chapter “Some Neighbors: IV: Our Mrs. Parker”, Pages 149-150, Viking Press, New York. (Verified on paper) Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From tarheel at MYVISCOM.COM Mon Aug 22 02:39:34 2011 From: tarheel at MYVISCOM.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 21:39:34 -0500 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) In-Reply-To: <201108220003.p7LB70Eo006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Growing up in south Louisiana I used (still do)several forms of the French verb Foutre...my parents used it and everyone else did. Also used it as an adjective. We always thought it meant "doomed" . But I can see how it can mean the word "f_cked" . "Fouter de monde "meant someone who made sport of others. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so > indecent. > > Likewise in an earlier appearance: > > 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) > 87: > Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally > bayonet every f--t-r of you. > > Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. > > JL > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bbdjuraev at YAHOO.COM Mon Aug 22 03:08:13 2011 From: bbdjuraev at YAHOO.COM (Botir Djuraev) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:08:13 -0700 Subject: Uzbek Language In-Reply-To: <201108220240.p7LB70LQ006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hi, guys, Do you know any available job position for Uzbek Language Instructor? I appreciate all of you for your attention. Sincerely yours, Botir Djuraev e-mail address: bbdjuraev at yahoo.com From: Janis Vizier Nihart To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:39 PM Subject: Re: fouter, n. (antedating) ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender:      American Dialect Society Poster:      Janis Vizier Nihart Subject:      Re: fouter, n. (antedating) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Growing up in south Louisiana I used (still do)several forms of the French verb Foutre...my parents used it and everyone else did. Also used it as an adjective.  We always thought it meant "doomed" .  But I can see how it can mean the word "f_cked" . "Fouter de monde "meant someone who made sport of others. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender:      American Dialect Society > Poster:      Jonathan Lighter > Subject:      fouter, n. (antedating) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so > indecent. > > Likewise in an earlier appearance: > > 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) > 87: > Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally > bayonet every f--t-r of you. > > Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. > > JL > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Aug 22 03:01:05 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 23:01:05 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108212332.p7LAsW3o003166@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Darla Wells wrote: > > We were just arguing this on Facebook: I always hear that line in Electric > Light Orchestra's Blinded by the Light as "wrapped up like a douche, another > runner in the night" but was informed that it was "like a deuce" talking > about auto racing... Manfred Mann's Earth Band covering Bruce Springsteen, actually. As per Wikipedia, "Springsteen himself has joked about the [mondegreen] controversy, claiming that it was not until Manfred Mann rewrote the song to be about a 'feminine hygiene product' that it became popular." --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 06:44:11 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 02:44:11 -0400 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) In-Reply-To: <201108220052.p7LB70G2006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > If we don't count "John le Fucker" from the 13th c. We don't count that. I've already tried it. It was not well received.:-( -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 07:22:45 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 03:22:45 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: <201108212350.p7LBCUFV012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's just more knowing the words, but not the music. On a liberal - well, the only kind that I bother to watch, actually; the Jerry Springer Show is probably the most conservative: e.g., Springer regularly mocks funny-to-him class-bound and regional speech patterns - TV show, someone white casually remarked that, modulo cruel fate, "Tupac would still be _tapping that ass_." Historic-sociolinguistically speaking, _fuck_ is a euphemism for _tap (that) ass_, if anything, and not the other way around. I steady be tripping behind that shit. It's like hearing Barbara Bush slice the cheddar in church. The speaker could have said, "… tearing those some drawers," with the same meaning. It would have been equally as pswaydo-hip, but it wouldn't have been obscene, merely vulgar in a laughably-lame way.. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Laurence Horn > Subject: � � � Re: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn = > wrote: >>> Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while >>> stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I >>> like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So = > I'm >>> ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. >>>=20 >>=20 >> "_some_"?!!! >>=20 >> Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing >>=20 >> "Can't _nobody_ =85" >>=20 >> into >>=20 >> "Can't _anybody_ =85" >>=20 >> produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. > > Well, it will produce a perfectly acceptable but different non-standard = > prescriptivist-no-doubt-upsetting string. � There are papers describing = > this non-concordial "negative declarative inversion" in white Alabama = > and west Texas speech, and it probably pops up elsewhere. � According to = > what I've read (this is also discussed under Negative Inversion at the = > Yale Grammatical Diversity site mentioned earlier: � = > http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/negative-inversion), African American = > English speakers tend to insist on negative concord when inverting, even = > if they vary concord use in other constructions. =20 > > >> And who knows >> exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the >> impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double >> negative in order to make everything cool. > > I'd attribute it to a side-effect of the "I love me some X" snowclone = > that's been running rampant among otherwise non-native personal dative = > speakers since Toni Braxton's hit recording of "I Love Me Some Him". � So = > the "some" (which may or may not contribute any meaning in such cases) = > is preserved even under negation rather than switching to "no" (or = > "any"). � In fact, negative occurrences of PDs are somewhat rare when = > they're not immediately primed as above ("I like me some X, but I don't = > like/hate me some/any/no Y"). � I did the comparison counts on these for = > a paper awhile back and the contrasts are dramatic. =20 > >> And it's probably only my >> personal background that makes the use of _some_ in place of _no_ in >> this structure feel like a harbinger of the end of the English >> language as we know it. > > Well, it's certainly a sign of weakening constraints on the established = > dialect construction in question. � I don't think that's the case with = > "Can't anybody please him". � =20 > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Aug 22 13:42:50 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:42:50 +0000 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108200115.p7JHmeeA017687@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Love it or leave it. 1901 D. A. Knuppenburg, "Qualifications Essential to Be the Successful Farmer," _Seventh Annual Report of the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture_, Part 1, 660: "To be successful, I say, he must first, love his occupation . . . . So, on this point, I would say, love it, or leave it." 1905-1906 Elizabeth B. Andrews, "Farming as an Art," _Farmer’s Institutes_ (Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture Bulletin no. 161) 10: "An old farmer put into five short words such advice as this: 'Love it or leave it.' Perhaps you say this is a text for a forcible sermon for people in all professions and callings." More recently, the proverb usually occurs as a jingoistic slogan. 1921 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 2 Aug.: "William Valle, congressman from the First Colorado district, a member of the house immigration committee, said his message to aliens in this country was: "Love it or leave it.'" --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:14 PM On Aug 19, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I see that Russell Baker reported the existence of an "America! Love It or > Leave It!" bumper sticker in NYT on Oct. 1, 1968. He thought it a novelty. > > That's after the riot and (heh-heh) almost 1969. > Well, yes, but if it was showing up in greater New York in October, think how much earlier it was showing up in the real America!! LH > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing >> the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to >> follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in >> Vietnam. >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> You're right about the short form, Wilson. >>>> >>>> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. >> YBQ >>>> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar >>>> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. >>>> >>>> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came >> on >>>> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that >>>> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive >> bumper-sticker >>>> use. >>> >>> I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic >> Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that >> crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors >> there. >>> >>> LH >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 22 16:08:04 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:08:04 -0400 Subject: confirming "JL's Law" Message-ID: JL's Law is that it is a waste of time to look in 19th C porn for dirty words. This is exemplified by "The Amorous Intrigues and Adventures of Aaron Burr", published in 1861, and available widely in libraries in series 2 of "Wright's American Fiction"; also available on line. I was reading vol. 2 of Lyle Wright's bibliography of 19th C American novels a while ago -- no comments, please -- when I came upon this title; Wright rarely editorializes, but permitted himself a note calling it a "scabrous" book. My sort of reading material, in short, next to a good bibliography. I skimmed the copy that's on line, not having access to the microfilm here. Nary a dirty word did I find, nor anything else of much interest. The protagonist's conquests all met with danged little resistence -- as Caesar might have put it, Vidi, Vinci, Veni. If there are any of you curious about what 19th C America knew about fancy fucking, and when did they know it, in one adventure, maybe a third through the book, it is pretty clear that Burr goes down on the lassie. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 18:30:19 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:30:19 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108212317.p7LBCUEx012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > William Charles Segar in 1940 That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? And who knew that the song was so recent? Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the error. As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too trivial to be worth citing. Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ …," are they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 19:20:05 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:20:05 -0400 Subject: "=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A6_?=at a future time-point." Message-ID: What's wrong with a simple "later"? OTOH, it is shorter than "… at a future point in time." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 22 19:49:32 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> William Charles Segar in 1940 > > That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? > > And who knew that the song was so recent? > > Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words > to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and > from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the > error. And while their versions all have something like the following for the second and fourth lines of the opening verse, I got the key to the highway, Billed out and bound to go. I'm gonna leave here running; Walking is most too slow. B. B. King's apparently (if the web can be trusted) has "Feel I got to go" and "Walking is both too slow" respectively. I suspect the latter is a mishearing, but…youneverknow. ("most too slow" is pretty interesting as it is). LH > > As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the > mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different > from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too > trivial to be worth citing. > > Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 22 23:06:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:06:46 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not in the OED? As often with 18th century dates, I look in EAI. I will need some time to analyze an 1802 article, but here's an example from 1807 where the meaning appears to be "gossip": Spirit of the Press [Philadelphia]; Date: 11-01-1807; Volume: I; Issue: 30; Page: [3]; 2nd col. of article, near the end: "The officers sometimes invite you to the ward-room, and you have a good deal of cheek music together. I wish you would let me know what's stirring among them as soon as you can." Letter Introduced as "Union at sea, November 7, 1807" To Richard Folwell, boatswains's mate, Ship Union; signed Henry Hawser. [A bit inconsistent? Were they both aboard the Union?] The letter starts: "Holloa, Dick, what cheer fore and aft? Does the weather look squally?" Perhaps the letter was sent from one part of the ship to another? Or perhaps it is invented. Joel At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. > >1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 190: >Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek music, >to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 23:15:05 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:15:05 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108221831.p7MHt3kO028266@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Brownie Mcghee sang extra verses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xnOhXIpHg Of course, he could probably sing them all day long. Eric On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > William Charles Segar in 1940 > > That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? > > And who knew that the song was so recent? > > Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words > to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and > from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the > error. > > As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the > mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different > from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too > trivial to be worth citing. > > Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. > > There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." > > When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ …," are > they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that > one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 22 23:50:48 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:50:48 -0700 Subject: Atari (1908) Message-ID: Not in the OED. On Google, "atari" gets 58.8 million raw Googits, many of those are for the company name or for its products. I do not see it being used metaphorically, though its widespread use for the game of go may merit listing in the dictionary. 1. 1908 description "The game of go: the national game of Japan," Arthur Smith, Moffat, Yard & company, page 44 (http://ow.ly/69WSw) ----- It is a rule of the game to give warning when a stone or group of stones is about to be completely surrounded. For this purpose the Japanese use the word "Atari" (from "ataru," to touch lightly), which corresponds quite closely to the expression "gardez" in Chess. ----- 2. 2009 Other than books on go (where citations start becoming common in the 1970s), the only citation I find for "atari" in Google Books is a novel where go is being played. "Everything Under the Sky," by Matilde Asensi, Harper Collins, page 123 (http://ow.ly/69Xms) The "24" is a footnote reference. ----- "In _atari_,24 in check..." Paddy Tichborne tried unsuccessfully to explain. "When the next move threatens to capture stones that are surrounded everywhere but the spot that's about to be taken--" ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 00:27:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:27:22 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: <201108222306.p7MHt3Gq028266@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nope, not in OED. "Chin music" not attested till 1834. JL On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "cheek music" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Not in the OED? > > As often with 18th century dates, I look in EAI. I will need some > time to analyze an 1802 article, but here's an example from 1807 > where the meaning appears to be "gossip": > > Spirit of the Press [Philadelphia]; Date: 11-01-1807; Volume: I; > Issue: 30; Page: [3]; 2nd col. of article, near the end: > > "The officers sometimes invite you to the ward-room, and you have a > good deal of cheek music together. I wish you would let me know > what's stirring among them as soon as you can." > > Letter Introduced as "Union at sea, November 7, 1807" To Richard > Folwell, boatswains's mate, Ship Union; signed Henry Hawser. [A bit > inconsistent? Were they both aboard the Union?] The letter starts: > > "Holloa, Dick, what cheer fore and aft? Does the weather look squally?" > > Perhaps the letter was sent from one part of the ship to another? Or > perhaps it is invented. > > Joel > > At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. > > > >1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) > 190: > >Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek > music, > >to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 00:37:58 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:37:58 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 7:15 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Brownie Mcghee sang extra verses: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xnOhXIpHg > > Of course, he could probably sing them all day long. > > Eric > > Wow, thanks for that link! I saw Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee a couple of times in my undergraduate days at the U. of Rochester—a memorable experience. This is a wonderful take on "Key". LH > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> William Charles Segar in 1940 >> >> That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? >> >> And who knew that the song was so recent? >> >> Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words >> to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and >> from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the >> error. >> >> As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the >> mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different >> from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too >> trivial to be worth citing. >> >> Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. >> >> There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." >> >> When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ …," are >> they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that >> one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 00:46:19 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:46:19 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 8:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Nope, not in OED. "Chin music" not attested till 1834. > > JL And all of them for a sense with which I'm unfamiliar ("talk, chatter", chiefly U.S.). No record of the only sense I do know, as a term of baseball art = 'beanball' (thrown under the chin of the batter, give or take). Is the original sense still extant? LH > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: "cheek music" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Not in the OED? >> >> As often with 18th century dates, I look in EAI. I will need some >> time to analyze an 1802 article, but here's an example from 1807 >> where the meaning appears to be "gossip": >> >> Spirit of the Press [Philadelphia]; Date: 11-01-1807; Volume: I; >> Issue: 30; Page: [3]; 2nd col. of article, near the end: >> >> "The officers sometimes invite you to the ward-room, and you have a >> good deal of cheek music together. I wish you would let me know >> what's stirring among them as soon as you can." >> >> Letter Introduced as "Union at sea, November 7, 1807" To Richard >> Folwell, boatswains's mate, Ship Union; signed Henry Hawser. [A bit >> inconsistent? Were they both aboard the Union?] The letter starts: >> >> "Holloa, Dick, what cheer fore and aft? Does the weather look squally?" >> >> Perhaps the letter was sent from one part of the ship to another? Or >> perhaps it is invented. >> >> Joel >> >> At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. >>> >>> 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) >> 190: >>> Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek >> music, >>> to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 01:01:28 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:01:28 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: <345FB2A7-211A-4875-A0CA-785A4023E5A0@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/22/2011 08:46 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >And all of them for a sense with which I'm unfamiliar ("talk, >chatter", chiefly U.S.). No record of the only sense I do know, as >a term of baseball art = 'beanball' (thrown under the chin of the >batter, give or take). Is the original sense still extant? "Chin music" for "chatter" I believe I've heard or read -- but not "cheek music". But I can suggest another baseball context -- when Derek Jeeter's 3000th career hit is on a day when he goes 5 for 5, and he is shown preparing for each at bat with his usual ritual, including penultimatey extending his right arm towards the plate umpire asking for time for the last placement into position of his feet -- but invariably followed, as the last act of this ritual, by puffing out his right cheek with his tongue. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 01:06:59 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:06:59 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another instance I was led to from EAI, also slightly later than Jon's, but in an article with a few expressions that caught my eye. Starting with the Daily Advertiser [New York, N.Y.]; Date: 09-20-1802; Volume: XVIII; Issue: 5490; Page: [3], a quotation for "gill glass" is attributed to 1799 in Spirit of Public Jrnls. (1800) III. 349 and the phrase ""dim her daylights" Google Books tells me is in the same journal. ----- In the Daily Advertiser, the article is introduced by: From a London Paper. THE FASHIONABLE WORLD. From the King on the throne, to the Beggar on the dunghill, PACIFIC FETES have, in England, been the general order of the day. [Pacific fetes = ?; probably ironic considering the disorderliness of this one] ... Of the various descriptions of these FASHIONABLE FOLLIES which have been republished in this side of the HERRING POND, few, we presume, will be considered more interesting or more entertaining to the reader of taste and delicacy, than the following exquisite delineation of MRS. SWIPE'S ROUT IN RAM ALLEY. [Herring Pond = North Atlantic Ocean, from 1686 (John Dunton); interdates 1729 (John Gay)--1824] ----- In "The Spirit of the Public Journals for 1799. Being an Impartial Section of the Most Exquisite Essays and Jeux d'Esprits, Principally Prose, that Appear in the Newspapers and other Publications. With Explanatory Notes." Vol. III. London: Printed for James Ridgway, 1800. "Imitations ! Imitations ! ! Fashionable Imitations * ! ! ! / Mrs. Swipe's Rout, in Ram Alley. / [From the Morning Herald.]" Pages 348--350. Google Books, full view. http://tinyurl.com/3wk8kzo [Considering this particular article, I can't help wondering about "spirit" and "Jeux d'Esprits" in the title.] What caught my eye are: 348, 349 -- "rout" = "gathering", but with added association of "disreputable". 349 -- [The hostess's] face ... was fired with labour ... wherever we turned our eyes, she still presented herself with a bottle of gin in her right hand, and a gill glass in her left. ["fired with labour" = with liquor?] 349 -- Her daughter ... seemed to vie with her mother ... by carrying hot purl to every quarter of the rooms. [purl n.3 interdates a1764--1843] 349 -- About eleven, Miss Slang [I thereupon hoped some would follow!] was earnestly entreated to charm the company with the much admired _cantata_ of _"Come tip us a glass of true blue."_ [true blue = ? here?] 349 -- To those who know the affability, the readiness to oblige, and the condescension of this young Lady, it will be needless to observe how cheerfully she complied. She was accompanied by the two Master Tripes, one on the marrow bone and cleaver, and the other on the Jew's harp; she was, it must be confessed, in full song, a fine compass of voice, great light and shade, and a most enchanting _portamento_. [A pun on "carriage"? Something tells me that during my adolescence I learned on the dirty streets or in the dirty books "portamento" = "bosom"? Not in the OED in that sense.] 349--250 -- ... a person ... who is supposed to have intruded himself under the function of a forged ticket, abruptly exclaimed "D--n all this cheek music, let us have a little jaw work of another sort; where are the hot mutton-pies that mother Swipes promised? [cheek music = a reference to the Jew's harp music? Or more generally, too much talk and not enough food and drink?] [mutton-pies = I won't venture; although later they seem to be innocent, accompanying the gin and purl.] 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim her daylights."_ ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to run riot", from 1750--.] ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] 350 -- ... Miss Dunston, who, squaring her elbows, asked Miss Slammerkin "what she was for?"---"A ring, a ring!" was instantly vociferated from every quarter of the room ... ["what she was for?" = "what the H--l do you thing you're doing"? When did this expression arise?] ["A ring" = presumably a space for fisticuffs.] 359 -- About three in the morning, the assembly began to separate; carts were provided for those who could not walk, the riders in which, falling to blows soon after their quitting the rooms, were seized by the watch, and all safely lodged in Tothillfields Bridewell. Joel At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. > >1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 190: >Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek music, >to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 01:17:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:17:02 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 7:15 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Brownie Mcghee sang extra verses: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xnOhXIpHg > > Of course, he could probably sing them all day long. > > Eric > > At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> William Charles Segar in 1940 >> >> That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? >> >> And who knew that the song was so recent? >> >> Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words >> to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and >> from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the >> error. >> >> As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the >> mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different >> from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too >> trivial to be worth citing. >> >> Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. >> >> There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." >> >> When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ …," are >> they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that >> one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 02:02:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:02:30 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: <201108230107.p7MHt3SE028266@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock the living daylights out of somebody. DanG On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, > stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be > running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim > her daylights."_ > ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery > of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to > run riot", from 1750--.] > ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression > arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none > with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, > and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 02:42:23 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:42:23 -0400 Subject: a bit more on the Coors Light example... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 7:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while >>> stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I >>> like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So I'm >>> ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. >>> >> >> "_some_"?!!! >> >> Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing >> >> "Can't _nobody_ …" >> >> into >> >> "Can't _anybody_ …" >> >> produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. > > Well, it will produce a perfectly acceptable but different non-standard prescriptivist-no-doubt-upsetting string. There are papers describing this non-concordial "negative declarative inversion" in white Alabama and west Texas speech, and it probably pops up elsewhere. According to what I've read (this is also discussed under Negative Inversion at the Yale Grammatical Diversity site mentioned earlier: http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/negative-inversion), African American English speakers tend to insist on negative concord when inverting, even if they vary concord use in other constructions. > > >> And who knows >> exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the >> impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double >> negative in order to make everything cool. > > I'd attribute it to a side-effect of the "I love me some X" snowclone that's been running rampant among otherwise non-native personal dative speakers since Toni Braxton's hit recording of "I Love Me Some Him". So the "some" (which may or may not contribute any meaning in such cases) is preserved even under negation rather than switching to "no" (or "any"). In fact, negative occurrences of PDs are somewhat rare when they're not immediately primed as above ("I like me some X, but I don't like/hate me some/any/no Y"). I did the comparison counts on these for a paper awhile back and the contrasts are dramatic. To this, Kurt Queller of the U. of Idaho, a non-ads-l subscriber but fellow PD aficionado, appends the following remarks, which tend to support Wilson's intuitions: ================== Even granting the syntactic / contextual priming of the negative, though, they seem somewhat "snowclone-ish," don't they? For one thing, note how they carry over from the antecedent (positive) phrase the positive polarity item "some" -- which hardly seems vernacular. (Where standard would ordinarily opt for the negative-polarity "…any…," vernacular should normally go for the negative-polarity "…no…".) Out of curiosity, I just did a quick g-search on "I don't like me no". Out of some 54,400,000 hits, there looked to be lots of false positives, but of the first six or so true positives, only one was of this contrastive "I like me some X, but I don't like me no Y" type (and it's clearly a tongue-in-cheek dagnabbit: "…I don't like me no bad grammar"). Three of them, however, seem to instantiate a very specific discourse routine, which would seem (whether actually produced by deep vernacular speakers or not) to have a fair likelihood of reflecting real vernacular competence: "I Love My Fat Husband" Ed is gaining the weight back and I am happy about that! I do not like me no skinny mens. [From a thread on SNAKES] http://www.wmi.org/multi_boards/other_topics/message.html?message_id=330830: I'm only scared of 3 kinds from lukinupinbama #15447 3/11/2011 5:29:18 PM of snakes: 1.live ones 2.dead ones 3.sticks that look like snakes I will give them my boat, truck or whatever and immediately EVACUATE. Ran up on a cotty-moccasin in creek last year and emptied my Glock on him 15 times, in muddy water. Then sat there on my ATV in the muddy water for 10 minutes, afraid to move. Was out of ammo or would have fired until I ran out, even if it was 100 rounds! No sir, Cuz, I don't like me no snakes. "…And by the way boy, I got me certain rules on this here bus! And I aim to enforce them! Now listen here! ‘First rule: no interruptions while I’m a talkin’. Second rule: don’t ya ever go a sassin!’ I don’t like me no sassin or smart mouthin, no-sir-ree! If you’re a smart mouther, you’re on the wrong bus! Causin’ if ya do any goin’ off at the mouth, I might have a mind to let ya’ll out in the middle of nowhere! ‘Third rule: no cussin’. Ya got that straight, boy?" http://www.appsondroid.com/chapter16.htm In each of these three cases, the negative PD seems to function as an affectively laden COMMENT on a preceding assertion, in effect EXPLAINING what was just said with reference to the speaker's bottom-line character (the way s/he simply IS). -- The essential pattern seems to be: [ { P } . Coz, { Q } . ] ... where 'P' is one or more clauses vividly rendering (a) something that happened, or (b) an adjuration to the hearer, and 'Q' is the construction 'I don't like me no X (no, sir-ree).' Only the 2nd of the above 3 examples has an explicit logical connective 'coz', but the same sort of explanatory relation seems implicit in the 1st and 3rd examples as well. In each case, the explanation offered is in the nature of a "that's just the way I am, and you might as well not be trying to talk me out of it" sort of statement. (Note also the collocational preference for "no, sir(ree)!") Ms. Thorpe's ""I like me some X, but I don’t like me some Y" pattern is clearly also quite well attested out there on 'teh interwebs' -- as you have shown, Larry! -- but it still smells quite snowclonish (to me, at least). In view of the above, I suspect that a more authentic usage, with respect to drinking beer while watching football, would look something like this: "…And if you're fixing to bring some beer for the playoffs, don't be bringing none of that watery horsepiss, hear? (Coz) I don't like me no Coors Lite. (No sir-ree)." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 04:11:25 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 00:11:25 -0400 Subject: as ... than ... Message-ID: Is this standard usage? [Tea Party] supporters were twice as likely than others to favor a > constitutional amendment banning flag burning... I see this once in a while and it always makes me shudder. But I am hesitant to say it's "wrong". VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 11:00:03 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:00:03 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108230117.p7N02ObD017117@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here's the Charles Segar version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFjdHZgElw Very interesting: Segar's is a twelve bar blues. All the other versions (that I am familiar with) are eight bar blues. In fact, "Key to the Highway" is often given as an example of the eight bar form. Eric On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 = > seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with = > Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the = > 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. =20 > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Aug 23 13:53:29 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 06:53:29 -0700 Subject: as ... than ... In-Reply-To: <201108230425.p7N3fXM3007102@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 9:11 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: as ... than ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is this standard usage? > > [Tea Party] supporters were twice as likely than others to favor a >> constitutional amendment banning flag burning... > > > > I see this once in a while and it always makes me shudder. But I am hesitant > to say it's "wrong". not standard, but certainly (reasonably well) attested. MWDEU p. 893: There are a number of syntactic blends involving than, some of which are separately treated in this book: see as good or better than; hardly ... than; scarcely ... than. ... Harper 1985 mentions a couple of instances of twice as many ... than, which would seem to be compounded of more ... than and twice as many ... as. We have also found the construction with much: ... twice as much office space is being built this year in the suburbs around New York City than in Manhattan – N.Y. Times, 27 July 1985 ..... some exx from Google web search on {“twice as likely” than} 4/25/07: An Australian study shows that men who sit at their desks more than six hours a day are nearly twice as likely to be overweight than those who sit for less ... www.webmd.com/diet/news/20050719/more-you-sit-at-work-more-you-weigh Individuals with Genetic Conditions Twice as Likely to Report Denial of Health Insurance than Individuals with Other Chronic Illness. www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2007/kass_genetic_testing.html Johns Hopkins study shows that individuals with genetic conditions are twice as likely to report having been denied health insurance than individuals with ... www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/jhu-iwg021207.php The study found that children ages 6 to 11 and ages 12 to 17 who were obese were more than twice as likely to have diabetes than children of the same age ... www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=77 These all have material intervening between as likely and than. But there are plenty of examples with as likely than, e.g.: ... patients with major depression appear twice as likely than those who are not depressed to die or be re-admitted to the hospital within 12 months. www.scienceblog.com/communityolder/2001/B/200111881.html They are twice as likely than the average adult and more likely than readers of all other quality titles to agree to the statement “I consider myself ... adinfo-guardian.co.uk/the-observer/obs-reader-profile.shtml Adults abused during childhood are more than twice as likely than those not abused during childhood to have serious substance abuse problems. www.annafoundation.org/wchac-stats.html MONDAY, July 24 (HealthDay News) -- Men with multiple sclerosis (MS) are more than twice as likely than women with the illness to pass it on to their ... www.multiplesclerosis.com/admin/templates/news.aspx?articleid=348&zoneid=50 > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 14:02:19 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:02:19 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside Message-ID: That's what the host of Lifetime's _The Balancing Act_ says when she means "All kidding aside." It obviously "makes sense" if you don't know what "aside" means. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Aug 23 15:19:29 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:19:29 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suppose the "blue" meant gin -- don't know why. It appears in the expression "blue ruin". "Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her daylights."_ would mean "black her eyes". The hunt was somewhat annoyed by the number of pirates who located themselves upon the runways, and intercepting the course of the river, killed and poached a number nearly equal to that obtained by the sportsmen. One of these lawless intruders, who, probably excited by an over dose of *blue ruin*, was disposed to be troublesome and impertinent, received from one of the drivers of the hunt his pay down, in undepreciated Kentucky currency, producing a total obscurity of his *day-lights* and a most copious effusion of claret. New-York American, November 1, 1822, p. 2, col. 5 (I forget what was being hunted.) blue ruin = HDAS: 1811 (English); 1821, 1833, (US) day-lights = HDAS: 1752 (English); 1833 (US) On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock > the living daylights out of somebody. > DanG > > > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, > > stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be > > running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim > > her daylights."_ > > ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery > > of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to > > run riot", from 1750--.] > > ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression > > arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none > > with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, > > and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 15:44:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:44:56 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2011, at 7:00 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Here's the Charles Segar version: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFjdHZgElw > > Very interesting: Segar's is a twelve bar blues. All the other > versions (that I am familiar with) are eight bar blues. In fact, "Key to the > Highway" is often given as an example of the eight bar form. > > Eric That is quite different from those of the 200 versions I sampled, including the more prominent ones. I ended up e-plunking down my $0.99 for one of the Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee versions (a very nice 5:12 cut from a "Blues Six-Pack"), EP, which Sonny/Brownie introduce by thanking their friend for writing it—Big Bill Broonzy. I imagine Segar must have ended up feeling a bit like Rodney Dangerfield. LH > > > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 = >> seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with = >> Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the = >> 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. =20 >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:18:31 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:18:31 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/22/2011 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock >the living daylights out of somebody. >DanG But would you be inclined to knock the living *headlights* out of somebody? Daylights are part of human anatomy (or something), and can be called "living"; headlights are part of mechanical anatomy, and can be literally dimmed, via a switch. "I'll dim your headlights" sounds like something sayable today, that I might even have heard sometime; "dim your daylights" not. ("Knock daylight" exists in only two quotations in the OED: 1881 Punch 17 Sept. 124/1 Ready at the call of duty to frame a new programme or knock daylight into an old one. [I don't know whether this means "amend to be useful" or "punch holes in".] 1921 Everybody's Mag. Oct. 145/1 'The old son-of-a-gun has got to the Dutchman and is knocking daylight out of him.' He would go down and get a ring-side view. [This seems rather concrete.] I don't find "knock headlight(s)", and nor did I find "dim daylight(s)/headlight(s).) Joel >On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, > > stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be > > running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim > > her daylights."_ > > ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery > > of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to > > run riot", from 1750--.] > > ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression > > arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none > > with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, > > and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:35:38 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:38 -0400 Subject: "true blue", 1800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/23/2011 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: >I suppose the "blue" meant gin -- don't know why. It appears in the >expression "blue ruin". George writes "blue ruin" dates from 1811. (The OED doesn't say why it means "gin" either.) Might my find from 1800 be a significant early use of "blue" for gin? >"Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her daylights."_ >would mean "black her eyes". Sounds good to me. (I don't suppose the pirates were hunting snipe.) Joel > The hunt was somewhat annoyed by the number of pirates who located >themselves upon the runways, and intercepting the course of the river, >killed and poached a number nearly equal to that obtained by the >sportsmen. One >of these lawless intruders, who, probably excited by an over dose of *blue >ruin*, was disposed to be troublesome and impertinent, received from one of >the drivers of the hunt his pay down, in undepreciated Kentucky currency, >producing a total obscurity of his *day-lights* and a most copious effusion >of claret. > >New-York American, November 1, 1822, p. 2, col. 5 (I forget what was being >hunted.) > > > >blue ruin = HDAS: 1811 (English); 1821, 1833, (US) > >day-lights = HDAS: 1752 (English); 1833 (US) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 16:42:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:42:25 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] Message-ID: floe, right? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 23 16:53:46 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:53:46 -0700 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108231643.p7NAjdN7017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Aren't they talking about the flow of the ice floes? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 23, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > floe, right? > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:54:19 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:19 -0400 Subject: Boxing slang from 1802, including "darken his daylights" Message-ID: While searching for "dim ... daylights" in EAN (not found), I came across the following, which may (or may not) have some useful slang somewhat related to or arising from boxing: Columbian Minerva [Dedham, Mass.]; Date: 08-10-1802; Volume: VI; Issue: 305; Page: [2]; article titled "A Boxing Match" and about the expressions used. The setting is a bout of fisticuffs in England, probably taken from a British periodical. The occupation and words of each observer are given -- E.g., Watchmaker ("spring at him"); Sailor ("douce his glimms"); Fishmonger ("make him a flounder"); Butcher ("come Ben Boozel over his jaw bone") -- and Glazier ("Darken his daylights"). I see "darken her daylights" is dated to 1752 by the OED, s.v. "daylight", sense 4. "Dim her daylights" from 1800 would add "dim" to "beat, scare, etc., the (living) daylight(s)" and interdate 1752 -- 1821. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 16:54:25 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:25 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many relevant hits for "no kidding aside" with the same meaning (even after eliminating the false positives for "No, kidding aside,…" and such). LH On Aug 23, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > That's what the host of Lifetime's _The Balancing Act_ says when she means > "All kidding aside." > > It obviously "makes sense" if you don't know what "aside" means. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:58:16 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:58:16 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: <532CB467-08D7-4094-8361-010000612879@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/23/2011 12:53 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Aren't they talking about the flow of the ice floes? Perhaps more likely the flow of ice on the continent itself. (A "first time" mapping of the flow of floes seems somewhat uninteresting -- it would soon be out of date.) Still "flow", however. Joel >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >On Aug 23, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > floe, right? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:06:43 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:06:43 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _what =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A6_?=for_ = "why"? Message-ID: Mid-twenty-ish, black female speaker: "What are you scared for?" < "What for are you scared?" wherein _what for_ (eye-dialect _whuffo_, etc.) = "why"? The speaker's phonology was utterly, soullessly, excruciatingly, "standard." Hence, it occurred to me that perhaps the speaker was hypercorrecting. That sentence-final _for_ instead of _of_ strikes me as not quite "right," in view of the phonetics in which the sentence was embedded. Of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:09:12 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:09:12 -0400 Subject: "true blue", 1800 In-Reply-To: <201108231635.p7NFE508006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My guess is that it means gin. Certainly the context supports it, Was it a brand name (hence "blue ruin"?). JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "true blue", 1800 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/23/2011 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: > >I suppose the "blue" meant gin -- don't know why. It appears in the > >expression "blue ruin". > > George writes "blue ruin" dates from 1811. (The OED doesn't say why > it means "gin" either.) Might my find from 1800 be a significant > early use of "blue" for gin? > > >"Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her daylights."_ > >would mean "black her eyes". > > Sounds good to me. > > (I don't suppose the pirates were hunting snipe.) > > Joel > > > The hunt was somewhat annoyed by the number of pirates who located > >themselves upon the runways, and intercepting the course of the river, > >killed and poached a number nearly equal to that obtained by the > >sportsmen. One > >of these lawless intruders, who, probably excited by an over dose of *blue > >ruin*, was disposed to be troublesome and impertinent, received from one > of > >the drivers of the hunt his pay down, in undepreciated Kentucky currency, > >producing a total obscurity of his *day-lights* and a most copious > effusion > >of claret. > > > >New-York American, November 1, 1822, p. 2, col. 5 (I forget what was > being > >hunted.) > > > > > > > >blue ruin = HDAS: 1811 (English); 1821, 1833, (US) > > > >day-lights = HDAS: 1752 (English); 1833 (US) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:25:32 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:25:32 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: <201108231654.p7NAjdO7017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED has the relevant sense of "aside" from 1860 and 1871 only, with the now-surprising query as to whether it is so used only in the U.S. There are no exx. of "(all) kidding aside." The earliest from NewspaperArchive: 1901 _Dubuque Daily Telegraph_ (Aug. 14) (unp.): But all "kidding" aside, the party is out to have a real quiet time. The earliest from GB: 1911 _The American Globe_ III (Jan.) 15: Kidding aside, my father writes me that he likes the suit very much. Roughly contemporaneous cites suggest that it's short for "Laying" or "putting all kidding aside." JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: no laughing aside > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Many relevant hits for "no kidding aside" with the same meaning (even after > eliminating the false positives for "No, kidding aside,…" and such). > > LH > > On Aug 23, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > That's what the host of Lifetime's _The Balancing Act_ says when she > means > > "All kidding aside." > > > > It obviously "makes sense" if you don't know what "aside" means. > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:28:27 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:28:27 -0400 Subject: Marie Antoinette never said, "Let them eat cake." Message-ID: ... and six other myths about Marie Antoinette: http://goo.gl/jYWhL VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:28:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:28:03 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: <201108231519.p7NAjZYm023348@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to _knock the living daylights out of_ somebody. I recall that from the very early '40's, as used in an East-Texas grandparental warning WRT, e.g. the real world: "If you don't heed me, you're going to get the living daylights knocked out of you, out yonder!" Otherwise, I'm entirely unfamiliar with the expression. Strange. But, of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:31:58 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:31:58 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: <201108231725.p7NFE5E6006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Roughly-contemporaneous cites suggest that it's short for "laying" or "putting all kidding aside." FWIW, that strikes *me* as precisely the correct intuition. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:34:10 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:34:10 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108231643.p7NFE52U006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, I believe, this is correct. The idea that glaciers "flow" is fairly recent--a couple of decades. The pattern of that flow requires detailed mapping over several years--the move fairly quickly, but often in unpredictable directions and often intersecting. Greenland has been studied fairly closely (that's where the "flow" was discovered, I believe). But Antarctica has been more elusive. So the announcement that complete ice "flow" has been mapped is a big deal. A complete map would show a number of "currents". The NASA picture on HuffPo (where I presume Wilson got his reference) shows something more like watershed basins rather than something like ocean currents. VS-) On 8/23/2011 12:42 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > floe, right? > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Aug 23 17:54:25 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:25 -0500 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108231619.p7NAjdKD017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Joel S. Berson > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:19 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "dim daylights", 1800 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "dim daylights", 1800 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 8/22/2011 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock > >the living daylights out of somebody. > >DanG > > But would you be inclined to knock the living *headlights* out of > somebody? Daylights are part of human anatomy (or something), and > can be called "living"; headlights are part of mechanical anatomy, > and can be literally dimmed, via a switch. > But "headlights" can be part of the anatomy, as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlights_(comics) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:59:16 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:59:16 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: <201108231732.p7NAjdSl017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And there's this significant antedating of "aside": 1800 Joseph Barretti _A Dictionary Spanish and English and English and Spanish_ (new ed.) (s.v. _Burlar_) (London: For F. Wingrave, et al.): _Dexa'das la bu'rlas_, jesting aside. Am too lazy to go back further. JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: no laughing aside > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > Roughly-contemporaneous cites suggest that it's short for "laying" or > "putting all kidding aside." > > FWIW, that strikes *me* as precisely the correct intuition. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 18:11:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:11:34 -0400 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio Message-ID: The Yale Book of Quotations lists this important maxim as a catchphrase of Edgar Bergen's wooden partner Charlie McCarthy. The citation is indirect via the 1984 book "The Other 637 Best Things Anybody Ever Said" by Robert Byrne. This phrase may have been derived from the following script fragment reprinted in "Joe Franklin's Encyclopedia of Comedians": Charlie McCarthy: I can't take this schoolwork any more, it's driving me crazy. Edgar Bergen: Well, Charlie, I'm sorry, but hard work never killed anybody. Charlie: Still, there's no use taking chances. Edgar: You have a test tomorrow, am I right? Charlie: Well, yes, in a way. Edgar: All right, now, I see what brought this on. You're scared you won't pass. Suppose you tell me what you know about the brain. Charlie: It's made from cereal, the silly- belly, and the muddled alligator. Edgar: No, no, that's the cerebrum, cerebellum, and the medulla oblongata! Didn't you read books on the subject? Charlie: To tell you the truth, I didn't read all the books on the subject. Perhaps one book. … Does any list member have experience tracing old-time radio scripts? I do not know of any script databases. I sent an email to an old time radio expert who compiled an episode guide for The Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy Show to ask if he recognized the episode and broadcast date based in the script fragment. The other interesting match for the phrase that I have found is in Walter Winchell's syndicated column in 1956. Cite: 1956 June 22, Daily Times-News, Walter Winchell of New York, Page 4, Column 3, Burlington, North Carolina. (NewspaperArchive) Florian ZaBach's query: "Hard work never killed anyone, but why take a chance on being the first victim?" (Hoomee?) Garson O'Toole ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 18:17:32 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:17:32 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/23/2011 01:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >But "headlights" can be part of the anatomy, as well: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlights_(comics) How could I have forgotten? But do they participate in "knock the living headlights out of you"? Or "I'm going to dim your headlights"? (Only Comstock might have said the latter, as he exercised his true blue, but not gin-eous, pen.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Aug 23 18:18:49 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:18:49 -0800 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23 Aug 2011, at 08:42, Wilson Gray wrote: > floe, right? No, I don't thinks so. They're plotting colour-coded flow speeds. Chris -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 18:38:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:38:38 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 In-Reply-To: <201108231619.p7NFE5tk006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I presume knock/dim/smash/beat/thrash are all equivalent in this context. Sure enough, OED does have it under "daylight" as a /general/ case, without specifying all the verbs: > 4. pl. The eyes. Also in extended use of any vital organ. Also to > beat, scare, etc., the (living) daylight(s) out of (a person), to > beat, scare (a person) severely. slang. The quotations include (some in past tense) "darken" (1752), "shake" (1848), "pull" (1884), "shoot" (1923), "beat" (1944), "scare" (1951), "belt" (1960). It easy to spot "smash" (1832), "crush" (1885), "pound" (1880) and "knock" (1842) with "daylight". Others require a somewhat closer inspection. "He cum mighty nigh knockm' the /daylight out/ o' me last spring." (1866) On the other hand, I disagree somewhat with George Thompson's comment: > "Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her > daylights."_ would mean "black her eyes". Consider the 1854 "knock" quote (the author appears to be Thomas A. Burke): http://goo.gl/F42J7 The Americans at Home. Ed. by Thomas Chandler Haliburton. Volume I. 1854 XV. The Way Old Bill Went Off. p. 166 > He was Justice of the Peace, held two or three posts of honour, and > could knock daylight out of a turkey's eye two hundred yards with his > favourite gun. Also, http://goo.gl/cUy0e The Family Treasury of Sunday Reading. Ed. by Andrew Cameron. London: 1860 The Redeemer's Tears. p. 34/1 > When any measure of religious thoughtfulness comes on, it takes all > the daylight out of yonr life. http://goo.gl/H6d0n A Fair Maid. Volume 1. By Frederick William Robinson. 1889 p. 117 > He looked after her for an instant, even seemed disposed to call to > her, as though there were further questions he would put to her before > she left him; then he sat down on the seat under the porch, laid bis > sunburnt hands upon his knees, and thought the subject out, and his > pipe out, and, at last, the daylight out; for when he came back to > himself, there were the deepening shadows of the night advancing, and > only a red tint lingering in the sky away to the west of him. If "daylight" was "eye", he would not have needed to "knock daylight out of a turkey's eye". I've also spotted a couple of comments, in passing, that referred to the daylight going out/dimming from someone's eyes because of becoming drunk. It seems "daylight" is closer to consciousness or a euphemism for life, life-force (hence "/living/ daylights"). It's also related to British "to see daylight(s) out of X". Of course, the meaning might have evolved from representing actually seeing daylight, to "projecting" daylight, i.e., awareness, to just euphemistically referring to eyes. But the 18th century quotes certainly don't use "daylight" to mean "eyes". Then, there is this: The History of Jemmy and Jenny Jessamy. Volume 1. By Eliza Fowler Haywood. 1753 p. 218 > Dear sister, I beg you will shew miss Jessamy the letter your ladyship > received since our coming down to Bath ; it is the duty of her friends > to force open her eyes, as she seems obstinate to shut daylight out. This seems to match Joel's quotation almost exactly, except for replacing "dim" with "shut [] out". VS-) On 8/23/2011 12:18 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/22/2011 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >> Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock >> the living daylights out of somebody. >> DanG > But would you be inclined to knock the living *headlights* out of > somebody? Daylights are part of human anatomy (or something), and > can be called "living"; headlights are part of mechanical anatomy, > and can be literally dimmed, via a switch. > > "I'll dim your headlights" sounds like something sayable today, that > I might even have heard sometime; "dim your daylights" not. > > ("Knock daylight" exists in only two quotations in the OED: > > 1881 Punch 17 Sept. 124/1 Ready at the call of duty to frame a > new programme or knock daylight into an old one. [I don't know > whether this means "amend to be useful" or "punch holes in".] > > 1921 Everybody's Mag. Oct. 145/1 'The old son-of-a-gun has got > to the Dutchman and is knocking daylight out of him.' He would go > down and get a ring-side view. [This seems rather concrete.] > > I don't find "knock headlight(s)", and nor did I find "dim > daylight(s)/headlight(s).) > > Joel > >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, >>> stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be >>> running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim >>> her daylights."_ >>> ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery >>> of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to >>> run riot", from 1750--.] >>> ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression >>> arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none >>> with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, >>> and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 18:48:58 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:48:58 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 In-Reply-To: <4E53F3AE.2040409@gmail.com> Message-ID: That should have been 1886, not 1889. VS-) On 8/23/2011 2:38 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ... > http://goo.gl/H6d0n > A Fair Maid. Volume 1. By Frederick William Robinson. 1889 > p. 117 >> He looked after her for an instant, even seemed disposed to call to >> her, as though there were further questions he would put to her >> before she left him; then he sat down on the seat under the porch, >> laid bis sunburnt hands upon his knees, and thought the subject out, >> and his pipe out, and, at last, the daylight out; for when he came >> back to himself, there were the deepening shadows of the night >> advancing, and only a red tint lingering in the sky away to the west >> of him. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Aug 23 19:24:41 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:24:41 -0500 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108231811.p7NI6b10023348@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Wisconsin State Journal | Madison, Wisconsin | Wednesday, December 12, 1945 | Page 6 COL 1 " It is written that work never killed anyone but we know some fellows who are too timid to take any chances." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 1:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - > Question about old time radio > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - > Question > about old time radio > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The Yale Book of Quotations lists this important maxim as a > catchphrase of Edgar Bergen's wooden partner Charlie McCarthy. The > citation is indirect via the 1984 book "The Other 637 Best Things > Anybody Ever Said" by Robert Byrne. > > This phrase may have been derived from the following script fragment > reprinted in "Joe Franklin's Encyclopedia of Comedians": > > Charlie McCarthy: I can't take this schoolwork any more, it's driving > me crazy. > Edgar Bergen: Well, Charlie, I'm sorry, but hard work never killed > anybody. > Charlie: Still, there's no use taking chances. > Edgar: You have a test tomorrow, am I right? > Charlie: Well, yes, in a way. > Edgar: All right, now, I see what brought this on. You're scared you > won't pass. Suppose you tell me what you know about the brain. > Charlie: It's made from cereal, the silly- belly, and the muddled > alligator. > Edgar: No, no, that's the cerebrum, cerebellum, and the medulla > oblongata! Didn't you read books on the subject? > Charlie: To tell you the truth, I didn't read all the books on the > subject. Perhaps one book. ... > > Does any list member have experience tracing old-time radio scripts? I > do not know of any script databases. I sent an email to an old time > radio expert who compiled an episode guide for The Edgar Bergen and > Charlie McCarthy Show to ask if he recognized the episode and > broadcast date based in the script fragment. > > The other interesting match for the phrase that I have found is in > Walter Winchell's syndicated column in 1956. > > Cite: 1956 June 22, Daily Times-News, Walter Winchell of New York, > Page 4, Column 3, Burlington, North Carolina. (NewspaperArchive) > > Florian ZaBach's query: "Hard work never killed anyone, but why take a > chance on being the first victim?" (Hoomee?) > > Garson O'Toole > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 21:18:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:18:42 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [N[Y]T] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From the NYTimes today: "A new map of Antarctica illustrates for the first time how ice moves across the continent. ... According to the findings, an intricate pattern of organized ice flow connects the interior regions of the continent with its coast. This flow is largely caused by sheets of ice sliding on rocky beds, the researchers report." JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 01:29:00 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:29:00 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing Message-ID: A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for the "extended event". Take it or leave it... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 01:34:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:34:53 -0400 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio In-Reply-To: <201108231811.p7NAjdWZ017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Charlie: It's made from _cereal_, the silly- belly, and the muddled alligator. > Edgar: No, no, that's the _cerebrum_, cerebellum, and the medulla > oblongata! "cerebrum" > "cereal" Evidence that this dates from the time when _cerebrum_ still bore stress on its initial syllable? BTW, used to go to school with an Arab dude name of "Medulla Oblongata." Was a real brain. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 24 03:12:29 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:12:29 -0400 Subject: Kittereen Message-ID: CHAISE-Boxes, Chair and Kittereen-Boxes, with all sorts of Wheels and Carriages for the same, are made by James Hallett, on Golden-Hill, at the Sign of the Chair-Wheel; at the most reasonable Rates, with all Expedition. N-Y Gazette Revived, February 12, 1750, p. 4, col. ? (from Early American Newspapers (now America's Historical Newspapers) OED: A kind of covered vehicle. †*a.* In West of England, A kind of omnibus (*obs.*). *b.* In West Indies, A kind of one-horse chaise or buggy. 1792 *Descr. Kentucky* 42 In 1787 were exported Chaises 40, Kittareens 10, Sulkeys 7. 1831 J. Porter *Sir E. Seaward's Narr.* II. 336, I desired Drake to‥hire a kittereen—a sort of one-horse chaise. 1865 R. Hunt *Pop. Romances W. Eng.* Introd. 14 Within my own memory [born 1807] the ordinary means of travelling from Penzance to Plymouth was a van called a ‘kitterine’, and three days were occupied in the journey. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 06:16:57 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 02:16:57 -0400 Subject: []'s Message-ID: >From Ezra Klein's list of 17 top tweets about the VA earthquake: Did anyone I have a crush on’s husband or boyfriend die in the earthquake? (Posted on Google+, but also in the WaPo blog.) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Wed Aug 24 07:05:27 2011 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:05:27 -0700 Subject: as ... than ... In-Reply-To: <201108231353.p7NAjk4G006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It seems to me that where the "as... than..." construction fails is in the loss of the following distinction: "as... as..." is used when the two terms are equal (e.g. "as much as"), whereas "more (or less, or whatever)... than..." is used when the terms are unequal. I'd be happy to say that the loss of meaning makes it incorrect. The examples given below all seem to arise from a confusion because both of the constructions are occurring in the same sentence. The only times that I can recall having heard anyone use "as... than..." when both constructions weren't occurring was in people for whom English was a second language and whose native language was German. Maybe they have a word that is similar to "than"? On Aug 23, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: as ... than ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 22, 2011, at 9:11 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: victor steinbok >> Subject: as ... than ... >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Is this standard usage? >> >> [Tea Party] supporters were twice as likely than others to favor a >>> constitutional amendment banning flag burning... >> >> >> >> I see this once in a while and it always makes me shudder. But I am >> hesitant >> to say it's "wrong". > > not standard, but certainly (reasonably well) attested. > > MWDEU p. 893: > > There are a number of syntactic blends involving than, some of which > are separately treated in this book: see as good or better than; > hardly ... than; scarcely ... than. > > ... Harper 1985 mentions a couple of instances of twice as many ... > than, which would seem to be compounded of more ... than and twice > as many ... as. We have also found the construction with much: > > ... twice as much office space is being built this year in the > suburbs around New York > City than in Manhattan – N.Y. Times, 27 July 1985 > > ..... > > some exx from Google web search on {“twice as likely” than} 4/25/07: > > An Australian study shows that men who sit at their desks more than > six hours a day are nearly twice as likely to be overweight than > those who sit for less ... > www.webmd.com/diet/news/20050719/more-you-sit-at-work-more-you-weigh > > Individuals with Genetic Conditions Twice as Likely to Report Denial > of Health Insurance than Individuals with Other Chronic Illness. > www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2007/kass_genetic_testing.html > > Johns Hopkins study shows that individuals with genetic conditions > are twice as likely to report having been denied health insurance > than individuals with ... > www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/jhu-iwg021207.php > > The study found that children ages 6 to 11 and ages 12 to 17 who > were obese were more than twice as likely to have diabetes than > children of the same age ... > www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=77 > > These all have material intervening between as likely and than. But > there are plenty of examples with as likely than, e.g.: > > ... patients with major depression appear twice as likely than those > who are not depressed to die or be re-admitted to the hospital > within 12 months. > www.scienceblog.com/communityolder/2001/B/200111881.html > > They are twice as likely than the average adult and more likely than > readers of all other quality titles to agree to the statement “I > consider myself ... > adinfo-guardian.co.uk/the-observer/obs-reader-profile.shtml > > Adults abused during childhood are more than twice as likely than > those not abused during childhood to have serious substance abuse > problems. > www.annafoundation.org/wchac-stats.html > > MONDAY, July 24 (HealthDay News) -- Men with multiple sclerosis (MS) > are more than twice as likely than women with the illness to pass it > on to their ... > www.multiplesclerosis.com/admin/templates/news.aspx?articleid=348&zoneid=50 > > > > > > > > > >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 07:20:59 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:20:59 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108231545.p7NAjdGH017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This site has an extensive chronology of the song--and lyrics for the Big Bill and Little Walter versions: http://keeponliving.at/song/key_to_the_highway.html Jazz Gillum, with Big Bill Broonzy, recorded the song right after Charles Segar. I wonder if changing the melody, lyrics, and number of bars is enough to claim at least partial authorship. Song titles can't be copyrighted; cf. "I Kissed a Girl", Jill Sobule--and Katy Perry. Eric On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 23, 2011, at 7:00 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > > > Here's the Charles Segar version: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFjdHZgElw > > > > Very interesting: Segar's is a twelve bar blues. All the other > > versions (that I am familiar with) are eight bar blues. In fact, "Key to > the > > Highway" is often given as an example of the eight bar form. > > > > Eric > > That is quite different from those of the 200 versions I sampled, including > the more prominent ones. I ended up e-plunking down my $0.99 for one of the > Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee versions (a very nice 5:12 cut from a "Blues > Six-Pack"), EP, which Sonny/Brownie introduce by thanking their friend for > writing it唯ig Bill Broonzy. I imagine Segar must have ended up feeling a > bit like Rodney Dangerfield. > > LH > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn >wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 = > >> seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with > = > >> Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the > = > >> 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. =20 > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 08:58:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 04:58:16 -0400 Subject: down economy Message-ID: "Down economy" seems to be a fairly common phrase right now. For example, this is the latest headline in Corporate Counsel: Down Economy and Increased Regulation Impact Corporate Fraud, Reports Say http://goo.gl/wDk8m This seems to have a somewhat archaic sound. Of course, there is little formality to stop the use of "up" and "down" as adjective in reporting. The Corporate Counsel article compounds that illusion by citing Walter Scott in the very first line: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." All the related down adj. subentries in the OED lack recent examples: 1. a. Directed downwards; descending. Also fig. > [1647-1894] > b. Of looks or aspect: Directed downwards. > [1565-1716] > 2. In a low condition of health or vitality. rare. > [1690-1885] > †3. Downcast, dejected. Obs. (exc. predicatively: see down adv. 18). > [1644] There are also two entries that mention "down trip"--one direct (1.e.) and one more expansive, under "draft additions)--certainly they are related and may need to be merged. Both are linked to down n.3 Draft Additions 1993 a., but in opposite directions--one points TO it, the other is pointed to from there. But it is one of these that "down economy" appears to most closely resemble: U.S. slang. Causing or characterized by depression, despondency, or lack > of vigour; down trip, an unpleasant or depressing hallucinatory experience > induced by the drug LSD. Cf. down n.3 Additions a. I just can't get past the disconnect between "down economy" and "down trip"--they certainly don't feel related. ;-) One is depressed, the other one's depressing. VS-) PS: Totally off-topic, but the article mentions an interesting conclusion on profiles of "typical fraudsters": > * A 36- to 45-year-old male in a senior management role in the finance unit > or in a finance-related function; > * An employee for more than 10 years who usually would work in collusion > with another individual. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 09:05:27 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:05:27 -0400 Subject: wafer Message-ID: A nice teaser in an article in AmLaw Daily: What is "a wafer" when it comes to semiconductor technology? If you cut > it into lots of pieces, is it still a wafer? That was the question the > Federal Circuit addressed in a ruling Monday. Unfortunately, the article appears to be behind a paywall, even though the referring page lists it as free content. The email summary is somewhat different: On Monday the Federal Circuit vacated a patent infringement judgment in a > case involving semiconductors, spending much of the 22-page ruling > discussing just what a wafer is and whether the term "a wafer" can also mean > "a plurality of wafers." Either way, it's another case that hinges on the meaning of a single word. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 13:43:39 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:43:39 -0400 Subject: down economy In-Reply-To: <201108240858.p7NJNYPH017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's kind of a "depressed" economy, but they don't want to say that because 1. that sounds like an economic depression 2. strictly speaking, the economy isn't even "depressed"; it's just growing very slowly and there's a lot of unemployment 3. "depressed" sounds too depressing 4. "depressed" has too many letters and syllables. "Sluggish" is a frequent choice, but that also has too many letters and syllables. What's more, "sluggish" implies limited, occasional progress, whereas "down" suggests a dead stall. It sounds like your computer. Only a geek or something from the cloud can fix it. But it's still less depressing than "depressed," which may suggest a long-term condition. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:58 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: down economy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Down economy" seems to be a fairly common phrase right now. For example, > this is the latest headline in Corporate Counsel: > > Down Economy and Increased Regulation Impact Corporate Fraud, Reports Say > > http://goo.gl/wDk8m > > This seems to have a somewhat archaic sound. Of course, there is little > formality to stop the use of "up" and "down" as adjective in reporting. The > Corporate Counsel article compounds that illusion by citing Walter Scott in > the very first line: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we > practic= > e > to deceive." > > All the related down adj. subentries in the OED lack recent examples: > > 1. a. Directed downwards; descending. Also fig. > > > [1647-1894] > > b. Of looks or aspect: Directed downwards. > > [1565-1716] > > 2. In a low condition of health or vitality. rare. > > [1690-1885] > > =E2=80=A03. Downcast, dejected. Obs. (exc. predicatively: see down adv. > 1= > 8). > > [1644] > > > There are also two entries that mention "down trip"--one direct (1.e.) and > one more expansive, under "draft additions)--certainly they are related and > may need to be merged. Both are linked to down n.3 Draft Additions 1993 a., > but in opposite directions--one points TO it, the other is pointed to from > there. > > But it is one of these that "down economy" appears to most closely > resemble= > : > > U.S. slang. Causing or characterized by depression, despondency, or lack > > of vigour; down trip, an unpleasant or depressing hallucinatory > experienc= > e > > induced by the drug LSD. Cf. down n.3 Additions a. > > > I just can't get past the disconnect between "down economy" and "down > trip"--they certainly don't feel related. ;-) One is depressed, the other > one's depressing. > > VS-) > > PS: Totally off-topic, but the article mentions an interesting conclusion > o= > n > profiles of "typical fraudsters": > > > * A 36- to 45-year-old male in a senior management role in the finance > un= > it > > or in a finance-related function; > > * An employee for more than 10 years who usually would work in collusion > > with another individual. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 13:54:48 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:54:48 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108240128.p7NL3uxG006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're too tolerant. "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they haven't fixed it. BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 states and Canada. Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Interesting phrasing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > > > When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > > Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > > middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." > > Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the > middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had > long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong > with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for > the "extended event". > > Take it or leave it... > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 14:10:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:10:48 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108241354.p7OAxYDS004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The reports along the strip stretching from North Carolina to Maine are likely accurate--it was certainly felt in Boston (as long as you were not on the ground floor). Reports from Wisconsin are not likely to be related to this particular event, but there were 9 or 10 separate shocks recorded in Colorado yesterday that got ignored because of the one in Virginia--some were just echoes of small ones in California, but those that had the epicenter in Colorado could have been felt in Wisconsin. But none of those were over 5.0. VS-) On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > You're too tolerant. > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they > haven't > fixed it. > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in > 22 > states and Canada. > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and > neither > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor Steinbok > > Subject: Interesting phrasing > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > > > > > When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > > > Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > > > middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." > > > > Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the > > middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had > > long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong > > with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for > > the "extended event". > > > > Take it or leave it... > > > > VS-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Aug 24 14:32:59 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:32:59 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Too tolerant?" Nonsense. If I say, "It sure is cold in here" and my butler turns up the heat, is bmy butler being too tolerant of the indirectness of speech act? It does not take any imagination whatever to understand that what he intended to CONVEY was "We are in the middle of dealing with the after-effects of an earthquake that just a few minutes ago disrupted service." But I suppose if he had said that, someone would have complained that he was verbose. I am reminded of Swift's philosophers who thought language too imprecise, so they carried around objects to show to each other. I forget what they did about verbs. What;s next on ADS-L, sunbeams out of cucumbers? On Aug 24, 2011, at 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're too tolerant. > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they haven't > fixed it. > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 > states and Canada. > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Interesting phrasing >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: >> >>> When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, >>> Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the >>> middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." >> >> Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the >> middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had >> long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong >> with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for >> the "extended event". >> >> Take it or leave it... >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 24 14:36:03 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:36:03 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/24/2011 09:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 >states and Canada. > >Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither >I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. You're too grounded, Jon. People on upper floors in Boston and Cambridge (Kendall Square area) alleged in television interviews that they felt it. I did not, in Arlington -- MA, that is. But I live near the top of "The Foot of the Rocks" -- from which British flankers fired on the patriots during their retreat from Concord -- from the elevated side, that is, not the foot -- and beneath me is bedrock. There would be less earth motion than in the land-fill areas of Boston and East Cambridge. (I also slept through an earthquake in San Francisco, so perhaps I am not typical. But then again, I grew up not too many blocks from the Jerome Ave. elevated.) (Was the Verizon guy was anticipating aftershocks?) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 24 14:50:31 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:50:31 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108241436.p7OEa40p018151@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/24/2011 09:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 >> states and Canada. >> >> Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither >> I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > You're too grounded, Jon. People on upper floors in Boston and > Cambridge (Kendall Square area) alleged in television interviews that > they felt it. > > I did not, in Arlington -- MA, that is. But I live near the top of > "The Foot of the Rocks" -- from which British flankers fired on the > patriots during their retreat from Concord -- from the elevated side, > that is, not the foot -- and beneath me is bedrock. There would be > less earth motion than in the land-fill areas of Boston and East > Cambridge. (I also slept through an earthquake in San Francisco, so > perhaps I am not typical. But then again, I grew up not too many > blocks from the Jerome Ave. elevated.) > My daughter, in NYC (Ridgewood, Queens to be precise), was in a ground floor apartment and said it was like being on a subway platform when the express goes by. My colleagues and family members here in New Haven (not on the ground floor) definitely felt it; I probably did too but processed it as a large truck, which happens a few times a day and rattles my office slightly. In Bethesda, books fell off shelves but nothing huge, and that seems to be true of people I know in Virginia as well (even in Charlottesville, a few miles from the epicenter, someone I know who works at the UVA Hospital complains that it only interrupted work for 5 minutes, although it did make him nostalgic for home (Santa Cruz, where the whole downtown was wiped out by the '89 quake). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 15:38:47 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:38:47 -0400 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio In-Reply-To: <201108240135.p7NL3u02006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Bill and Wilson for responding. Bill Mullins wrote > Wisconsin State Journal | Madison, Wisconsin | Wed, December 12, > 1945 | Page 6 COL 1 > "It is written that work never killed anyone but we know some fellows > who are too timid to take any chances." This 1945 cite is great. This proverb may be viewed as a twisted version of the base proverb "hard work never hurt [killed] anybody" but the word "hard" has been deleted in Bill's example. There is a collection called "Twisted Wisdom: Modern Anti-Proverbs" by Wolfgang Mieder and Anna Litovkina that contains proverbs of this general type. Here is an example of the base proverb that I located in 1850 that cites an 1844 newspaper. The phrase is already labeled an "old saying": Cite: 1850, Serpents in Hedges: A Plea for Moderation in the Hours Employed in Business by Samuel Martin, Page 29, Ward and Co., London. W. Herepath, Esq., M.P. "It was an old saying that hard work never killed anybody; and he believed that hard work in the open air and in a good atmosphere did not do so much mischief as some persons imagined. Unfortunately, however, the work required of the drapers' and other assistants was not carried on in a good atmosphere. Must not continuous labour in ill-ventilated and often crowded shops produce in the drapers' assistant disease and premature death?" [Footnote dagger] [Footnote dagger] Bristol Mercury, May 11, 1844. Wilson Gray wrote > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Garson O'Toole >> Charlie: It's made from _cereal_, the silly- belly, and the muddled alligator. >> Edgar: No, no, that's the _cerebrum_, cerebellum, and the medulla >> oblongata! > > "cerebrum" > "cereal" > > Evidence that this dates from the time when _cerebrum_ still bore > stress on its initial syllable? If I find an audio recording of the relevant episode I will try to send you the relevant section for an analysis of the stress pattern. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Aug 24 15:45:49 2011 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:45:49 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is, of course, off topic. However, my office building, some 4 states away, swayed ominously (felt like being on a small boat on choppy water), and, after we made our way down 9 flights of stairs, there was only intermittent cell signal for about an hour. On 8/24/11 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're too tolerant. > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they haven't > fixed it. > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 > states and Canada. > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbokwrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Interesting phrasing >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: >> >>> When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, >>> Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the >>> middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." >> >> Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the >> middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had >> long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong >> with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for >> the "extended event". >> >> Take it or leave it... >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 16:55:04 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:55:04 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108241545.p7OFLQ0E004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I meant to imply only that saying the quake "was felt in 22 states and Canada," without specifying whether it was felt by actual human beings in all 22, makes it seem far worse than it was. As do the inevitable maps highlighting the full territory of all 22 states, which makes it look like the quake set people vibrating all along the Mississippi and on Lake Superior's northwestern shore. Anyway, Verizon still wasn't "in the middle of an earthquake." If Richard Young was scared out of his wits when he said so, however, I'm willing to cut him some slack. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Re: Interesting phrasing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is, of course, off topic. However, my office building, some 4 > states away, swayed ominously (felt like being on a small boat on choppy > water), and, after we made our way down 9 flights of stairs, there was > only intermittent cell signal for about an hour. > > On 8/24/11 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > You're too tolerant. > > > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they > haven't > > fixed it. > > > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in > 22 > > states and Canada. > > > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and > neither > > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > > > JL > > > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok >wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Interesting phrasing > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > >> > >>> When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > >>> Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > >>> middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." > >> > >> Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the > >> middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had > >> long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong > >> with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for > >> the "extended event". > >> > >> Take it or leave it... > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > > ============================================================================== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 18:24:23 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:24:23 -0400 Subject: the "Ishmael effect" Message-ID: I've seen this term used elsewhere recently, but it isn't in OED: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/books/review/24GOTTLIE.html The identification of the phenomenon is sound, but, if the etymological rationale afforded by the Times is accurate, the terminology is plain stupid - except for all-important PR purposes: "Melville's Ishmael in 'Moby-Dick'' quotes Job's 'I only am escaped alone to tell thee' and then spins a tale of adventure nobody could have survived to tell." Of course Ishmael could have survived, though against all odds. He floated on Queequeg's airtight coffin and was picked up by the _Rachel_. Furthermore, he's a fictional character, so he can survive anything. If the general idea of "miraculous escape" is what the term is getting at, it confuses "supernatural" with "quite unlikely." Furthermore, Ishmael doesn't quote Job till the end of the story. Did Stove (catch the pun?) even re-read the book before he named the phenomenon? I'd have expected better terminology from a contrarian philosopher. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 24 18:34:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:34:46 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." Message-ID: Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, two hours ago, including http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 19:12:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:12:38 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241835.p7OFLQgE004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as hilarious. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "The dog ate my ..." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, > two hours ago, including > http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 > > I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From > which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there > was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: > > http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 19:39:24 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:39:24 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241912.p7OArYqa028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs cellulose supplements. ;-) VS-) On 8/24/2011 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y > > Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. > > I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as > hilarious. > > JL > > > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, >> two hours ago, including >> http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 >> >> I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From >> which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there >> was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: >> >> http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 >> >> Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 19:53:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:53:08 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241938.p7OIpQtM004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So it could - in theory - be based on an actual event from the dawn of homework-as-we- know-it. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. > > The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste > for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about > three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs > cellulose supplements. ;-) > > VS-) > > On 8/24/2011 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right > here: > > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y > > > > Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. > > > > I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as > > hilarious. > > > > JL > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > >> Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, > >> two hours ago, including > >> > http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 > >> > >> I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From > >> which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there > >> was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: > >> > >> > http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 > >> > >> Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 22:32:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:32:47 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241912.p7OArYqa028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y > When, ca. 1981, the student showed up at the circ desk with a mangled mess in her hand, she explained, "My dog ate this library book," The evidence adduced in support of this claim seemed irrefutable. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 24 22:52:36 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:52:36 -0700 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241938.p7OHGOBP007502@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. > > The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste > for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about > three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs > cellulose supplements. ;-) back in columbus, some years ago, we had a lovely dog who just hated anything that came through the mailslot. she savaged the mail. including a summons to jury duty. fortunately, she didn't actually eat it. so we were able to paste the pieces back together and notify the board of elections, which accepted the paste-up and sent us another, fresh, summons that my wife was able to sign and send in. the mailman started leaving the mail outside the front door after that. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Wed Aug 24 23:04:32 2011 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:04:32 -0500 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241938.p7OHGOBP007502@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then there was the time I almost had to tell my students that my dog ate their homework. (I managed to retrieve it before he did serious damage.) Jim Parish On 8/24/2011 2:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. > > The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste > for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about > three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs > cellulose supplements. ;-) > > VS-) > > On 8/24/2011 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: >> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y >> >> Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. >> >> I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as >> hilarious. >> >> JL >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, >>> two hours ago, including >>> http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 >>> >>> I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From >>> which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there >>> was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: >>> >>> http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 >>> >>> Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 00:40:31 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 20:40:31 -0400 Subject: down economy In-Reply-To: <201108241343.p7OAxYA0004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Actually, "down economy" used to mean an economy experiencing a decline in GNP or some other national economic measure. At least, that is how it was used in the mid-70s. This would be strongly associated with a recession, which requires two consecutive negative quarters, but you can have a down economy without a recession. I have no doubt that non-economists would use "down economy' to mean "an economy that sucks", but no economist would. DanG On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: down economy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's kind of a "depressed" economy, but they don't want to say that because > > 1. that sounds like an economic depression > > 2. strictly speaking, the economy isn't even "depressed"; it's just growing > very slowly and there's a lot of unemployment > > 3. "depressed" sounds too depressing > > 4. "depressed" has too many letters and syllables. > > "Sluggish" is a frequent choice, but that also has too many letters and > syllables. What's more, "sluggish" implies limited, occasional progress, > whereas "down" suggests a dead stall. It sounds like your computer. Only a > geek or something from the cloud can fix it. > > But it's still less depressing than "depressed," which may suggest a > long-term condition. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:58 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: victor steinbok >> Subject: down economy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Down economy" seems to be a fairly common phrase right now. For example, >> this is the latest headline in Corporate Counsel: >> >> Down Economy and Increased Regulation Impact Corporate Fraud, Reports Say >> >> http://goo.gl/wDk8m >> >> This seems to have a somewhat archaic sound. Of course, there is little >> formality to stop the use of "up" and "down" as adjective in reporting. The >> Corporate Counsel article compounds that illusion by citing Walter Scott in >> the very first line: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we >> practic= >> e >> to deceive." >> >> All the related down adj. subentries in the OED lack recent examples: >> >> 1. a. Directed downwards; descending. Also fig. >> >> > [1647-1894] >> > b. Of looks or aspect: Directed downwards. >> > [1565-1716] >> > 2. In a low condition of health or vitality. rare. >> > [1690-1885] >> > =E2=80=A03. Downcast, dejected. Obs. (exc. predicatively: see down adv. >> 1= >> 8). >> > [1644] >> >> >> There are also two entries that mention "down trip"--one direct (1.e.) and >> one more expansive, under "draft additions)--certainly they are related and >> may need to be merged. Both are linked to down n.3 Draft Additions 1993 a., >> but in opposite directions--one points TO it, the other is pointed to from >> there. >> >> But it is one of these that "down economy" appears to most closely >> resemble= >> : >> >> U.S. slang. Causing or characterized by depression, despondency, or lack >> > of vigour; down trip, an unpleasant or depressing hallucinatory >> experienc= >> e >> > induced by the drug LSD. Cf. down n.3 Additions a. >> >> >> I just can't get past the disconnect between "down economy" and "down >> trip"--they certainly don't feel related. ;-) One is depressed, the other >> one's depressing. >> >> VS-) >> >> PS: Totally off-topic, but the article mentions an interesting conclusion >> o= >> n >> profiles of "typical fraudsters": >> >> > * A 36- to 45-year-old male in a senior management role in the finance >> un= >> it >> > or in a finance-related function; >> > * An employee for more than 10 years who usually would work in collusion >> > with another individual. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Aug 25 00:41:01 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 17:41:01 -0700 Subject: on reversed "substitute" Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/more-egotism/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 01:21:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:21:22 -0400 Subject: perMIT, n. In-Reply-To: <201108051646.p75FY9Kj006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Also in _Sinner's Holiday_ (1930): "About three weeks ago, I got you a per-MIT to get a gun." The actor speaking (Purnell Pratt) was born in 1885 on Bethel, Ill. Accordding to IMDb, he attended both USC and the University of Pennsylvania. Dunno if he used the pronunciation off camera. JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: perMIT, n. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > In the movie _Blackwell's Island_ (1939), starring the great John > Garfield, > > a prison guard explains clearly that a visitor "has a perMIT signed by > the > > Deputy Commissioner of Corrections." > > > > _perMIT in wide use since at least 1939? (I assume "wide," based on > the assumption that the "guard" was portrayed by a white actor.) That > certainly jibes with my personal experience, though, till now, I'd > been under the misprehapprehension that it was essentially only a BE > thing. > > I keep forgetting that, in reality. I've lived my entire life without > any true social contact whatsoever with white people, despite the fact > that, my God! they're everywhere! Hence, I lack any gefuehl for the > sprach of "the other group." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Aug 25 01:29:47 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 20:29:47 -0500 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." Message-ID: We had one who specialized in my wife's bedroom slippers, but only the right one. Ate three or four pairs, IIRC, before she lost the taste fore them. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Steinbok" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 2:39 PM Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs cellulose supplements. ;-) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 01:44:54 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:44:54 -0400 Subject: Yo! Message-ID: OED has this in the sense of "Hey!" only from 1958. 1920 _Company "A," Twenty-Third Engineers, A.E.F._ (Chicago: n.p.) 112: Company Sayings [1917-19] ... When do we eat? ... Yo!! Breakfast. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 03:38:46 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:38:46 -0400 Subject: "Start your conversion from _a far_!" Message-ID: Reminds me of a verse from a '50's R&B song: She took the keys to my Cadillac car Jumped in my Kitty and drove afar Well, _away_ wouldn't have rhymed. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 06:29:32 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 02:29:32 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241953.p7OArYwM028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Certainly not the earliest, but here's one from 1964: http://goo.gl/fVDJ1 > Meriden Journal - Jul 13, 1964 Fun Time. The Chuckle Box. p. 5 > Passenger: I'm sorry, but my dog ate my ticket. Conductor: Then I suggest > you buy him a second helping. VS-) On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > So it could - in theory - be based on an actual event from the dawn of > homework-as-we- know-it. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Victor Steinbok >wrote: > > > > > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it.... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 07:19:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 03:19:02 -0400 Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] Message-ID: This is nothing particularly earth-shattering, but the OED quotations terminate in the 1870s. http://goo.gl/1BCou Evening Post, Volume CXI, Issue 133, 5 June 1926 The World Greatest Dancer. Page 9 (last graf) > Miss Thursa Rogers, who has made a good reputation in London and Paris as a > premiere danseuse, lived in Wellington until six years ago. > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 08:10:19 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 04:10:19 -0400 Subject: Season ticket Message-ID: The OED has a definition of a "season ticket" under season n. C.2. season ticket n. a ticket which admits the holder to travel on a boat or on > a line of railway, to enter an exhibition, etc., an unlimited number of > times during a season or specified period, at a reduced rate of payment; > hence season-ticket holder. This is a bit different from current American usage. The earliest quotation (1820) is actually a reference to a Boston Theatre Season Ticket, so there is some continuity. But, in most instances, today a discount document of this nature might be more properly referred to as a "season pass", as used, for example, for ski resorts. "Season pass" or "semester pass" is also the usual reference to a discount card for public transportation that is made available to college students, e.g. at UW-Madison. In other instances, the name of the pass usually corresponds to the length of the discount period and/or the mode of transportation, e.g., "bus pass", "day pass", "monthly pass", "seven-day pass", "commuter rail pass", etc. (although for shorter periods, usually 1-7 days, it may well be a "ticket"). A "season ticket" is more frequently used in connection with sports events--particularly with professional and high-profile college teams--as well as with cultural enterprises, such as a city orchestra, theater or jazz club, although "subscription" is more commonly used with the latter bunch. The holder of a "season ticket" get /all/ the tickets for a particular season or some subset of tickets arranged along a particular theme--for example, a baseball team may offer season tickets for all games, all weekend games, all day games or all evening games. Holders of season tickets usually get additional rights, such as a direct entry into a lottery for playoff games, merchandise discounts, access to special events, etc. And a particularly special right associated with season tickets is that they are renewable--that is, a holder of a season ticket may purchase one for the following year, while non-holders may be denied this opportunity if season tickets are popular. Some fans make such season tickets hereditary. One thing that season ticket holders usually don't get--at least, not at sports events--is discounts on actual individual tickets, although the package for a series of cultural events, such as theater season, may well cost less than the total cost of individual tickets to each event. I am not citing any of these because the usage is so common. I have no idea how either phrase is used in the UK or other Anglophone parts of the world. But the use of "season-ticket holder" remains the same--even with a different kind of "season ticket". In contrast, there are no OED entries at all for "season pass", "monthly pass", "bus pass" or "day pass" (although, see below for more general "pass"). "Bus pass" does appear in a quotation under "bus lane" in bus n.2: 1995 Independent 23 May 6/8 How about, for an experimental period, > closing the House of Commons car park, giving each MP a week's bus pass, and > putting a bus lane up and down Whitehall? Similarly, "day pass" shows up under "life membership" in life n.: 1999 M. Syal Life isn't all Ha Ha Hee Hee (2000) iii. 127 He had > wangled the odd day pass, but life membership and bar privileges would not > be forthcoming. "Day pass" may mean either "one-time admission" or "unlimited admission/use for one day". A part of the problem is that in many modes of public transport in the US tickets are obsolete--one pays when entering the vehicle (bus or trolley) or the system (subway, metro, T, L, etc.) and that's the only transaction that's necessary. Where the cost of a trip may depend on the location of ingress and egress, such as DC Metro or SF BART, a physical ticket is necessary to get on and off. But in NYC, Boston, DC and several other places there is an additional distinction between [paper] tickets, [plastic] cards and [monthly or multi-trip] passes. Tickets usually come with a fixed value (although that value may go toward more than one ride). "Cards" are refillable (a.k.a. "smart cards"). And "passes" are as I described earlier--unlimited trips for a specified period or a specified number of trips with a pre-paid discount. General "pass" in this sense is a variant of pass n.4 7.a.and 7.f.: 7. a. Permission to leave, enter, or travel somewhere; a document giving or > declaring such permission. Also fig. f. A card, ticket, or permit giving authorization for the holder to enter > or have access to a place, form of transport, or event, esp. one which > requires no payment, or for which payment has been made in advance. Also: a > document showing that the holder is entitled to concessionary fares, rates > of admission, etc. Note, however, that the subway tickets and cards are rarely, if ever, identified as "passes", except in the "monthly pass" or "season pass" uses. Also note that some quotations under 7.f. use "pass" in a different sense (closer to 7.a.?): 1894 Times (Weekly ed.) 9 Feb. 113/2 An‥applicant for a free pass over > this company's lines of railway. > 2002 Daily Variety (Nexis) 4 Dec. 45 As a young boy he distributed > weekly circulars for the local movie theater door-to-door. His pay was an > unlimited free pass to the movies. In both of these, "pass" is actual passage or access, not a document signifying permission for passage. Other quotations refer to physical documents or tickets that allow passage or allow unlimited passage. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 08:33:48 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:33:48 +0800 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108250629.p7OKngWs028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In northeast China, I considered it my cultural homework to eat dog -- a popular dish there. (Usually in soup, but sometimes the sliced meat with scallions. Not bad; kind of like beef.) And just for a tad of linguistic content (not related to homework): after my first son was born, my northeast-Chinese wife would put him on her shoulder and in a typical Chinese seller-song melody, sing: mai4 gou3rou4 lei! jin1tian1 bu4mai3 ming2tian1 jiu4 chou4 lei! (I'm) selling dog meat! If (you) don't buy (it) today (it'll) be stinky tomorrow! Here's the melody in solfege letters (a following dot indicates the octave below). The rhythm is just even quarter notes with a break between the two lines. d s. m d d d d s. d d d m d -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 10:02:12 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:02:12 -0400 Subject: Phrase origin tale: waiting for the other shoe to drop (1904 June 30) Message-ID: A Reuters article dated August 24, 2011 reported the resignation of Steve Jobs: "It's really sad," the CEO told Reuters. "No one is looking at this as a business thing, but as a human thing. No one thinks that Steve is just stepping aside because he just doesn't want to be CEO of Apple anymore." "It feels like another shoe is going to drop." This article motivated me to examine the expression "waiting for the other shoe to drop." It is covered at Michael Quinion's World Wide Words here: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-wai1.htm Barry Popik recorded his discoveries about the phrase here: http://goo.gl/qqHUF http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/waiting_for_the_other_shoe_to_drop/ ADS list participant Sam Clements found the earliest relevant cite dated April 16, 1905, and he sent it to the list in 2005. The cite refers to an origin story for the phrase, but it does not recount it. It also assigns the origin tale to Mark Twain, but I do not think that any supporting evidence for Twain's connection to the story has yet emerged. He did live to 1910. Here is a link into the archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;W8RePw;200501140058410500B Barry Popik gives a citation for an origin story dated August 11, 1905. Here is a version of the tale in 1904. It is reprinted from the Indianapolis News. Cite: 1904 June 30, The Implement Age, Advertisement Department, Nervous Man in Next Room, Page 28, Column 2, Implement Age Co., Philadelphia-Chicago. (Google Books full view) NERVOUS MAN IN NEXT ROOM. A traveling man stopped at a hotel at Monticello. The proprietor told him he could not lodge him, not a room in the house. The traveling man protested. He must have a room. Finally the proprietor told him there was a room, a little room separated by a thin partition from a nervous man, a man who had lived in the house for ten years. "He is so nervous," said the landlord, "I don't dare put anyone in that room. The least noise might give him a nervous spell that would endanger his life." "Oh, give me a room," said the traveler, "I'll be so quiet he'll not know I'm there." Well, the room was given the traveler. He slipped in noiselessly and began to disrobe. He took off one article of clothing after another as quietly as a burglar. At last he came to his shoes. He unlaced a shoe, and then, man-like, dropped it. The shoe fell to the floor with a great noise. The offending traveler, horrified at what he had done, waited to hear from the nervous man. Not a sound. He took off the second shoe and placed it noiselessly upon the floor. Then, in absolute silence, he finished undressing and crawled between the sheets. Half an hour went by. He had dropped into a doze, when there came a tremendous knocking on the partition. The traveler sat up in bed trembling and dismayed. "Wha-wha-what's the matter?" he asked. Then came the voice of the nervous man: "Blame you! Drop that other shoe!" - Indianapolis News Here is the punch line of another version of the traveler and the nervous man story published in 1904. Cite: 1904 August 13, Los Angeles Times, The Congress Convention: Seventh District Delegates Carry Out Slate, Page 6, Los Angeles, California. (ProQuest) 'Why,' came the feeble reply, 'I'm a sick man; I am a nervous wreck, and I can't go to sleep until you take off that other shoe.' Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 10:14:16 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:14:16 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108250629.p7OKngWs028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Below is a link to a message in the ADS archive that gives the citation for a New York Times article dated February 18, 1962. The article contains: "Homework still isn't handed in because the book was left in school; the dog ate it; the baby ate it; little brother scribbled all over it; ..." http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;3C7FwQ;200403242357050500D Here is a remark analogous to "the dog ate my homework" from the mouth of a major military figure in 1932. Cite: 1932 June 23, Boston Globe, Odd Items From Everywhere, Page 28, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) The story of what became of the speech Gen Max Weygand was to have made when he took his place recently as one of the Immortals of the French Academy, has been revealed. When the time came for his address, he rose and said: "Gentlemen, I had prepared a speech of more than six pages, but I left it on my study table and my dog ate it." Here is an example two years before the 1962 date above where a "census form" instantiates the neglected task instead of homework. Cite: 1960 April 3, New York Times, Census Aides' Day is Spent on Phone, Page 82, New York. (ProQuest) At the Union County, N, J., district office, where Shelby F. Fell is supervisor, a record was kept of the explanations householders gave for their need of a census form. Only a few said the mail carrier had failed to deliver it. Others said: "My dog ate it." "My baby chewed it up." "It went out with the garbage." "My son burned it up with old papers." Here is another thematically related piece of humor in 1960. Cite: 1960 August 18, Boston Globe, Quick Course, [Associated Press article], Page 34, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) [Title given as "Ouick Course" by ProQuest] When Marlin Townsend acquired his young German shepherd dog he borrowed a book from the library on the care and training of the pet. Townsend didn't find what was in the book. The dog ate it. Here are some more excuses from adults instead of schoolchildren in 1960. Cite: 1960 October 17, Chicago Tribune, Reaching Absentee Voters Presents Big Election Task by Louise Hutchinson, Page 5, Chicago, Illinois. (ProQuest) Once a ballot is sent, the board must know its whereabouts if it isn't returned. And this yields some odd responses. "A Chicagoan vacationing in California answered our inquiry one year that a dog had eaten it," Machinis said. "Another replied the baby had lost it." Garson On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:29 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Certainly not the earliest, but here's one from 1964: > > http://goo.gl/fVDJ1 > >> Meriden Journal - Jul 13, 1964 > Fun Time. The Chuckle Box. p. 5 > >> Passenger: I'm sorry, but my dog ate my ticket. Conductor: Then I suggest >> you buy him a second helping. > > > VS-) > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> >> So it could - in theory - be based on an actual event from the dawn of >> homework-as-we- know-it. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Victor Steinbok > >wrote: >> >> > >> > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate >> > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them >> > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. >> > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner >> > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it.... >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 25 12:46:53 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:46:53 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/25/2011 04:33 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: >In northeast China, I considered it my cultural homework to eat dog -- a >popular dish there. The new novel news headline-- "Man *eats* dog." >(Usually in soup, but sometimes the sliced meat with scallions. Not bad; >kind of like beef.) I thought all exotic meats tasted like chicken. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 14:32:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? Message-ID: Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by…well, you'll see: CLAUDIO: Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract I got possession of Julietta's bed: You know the lady; she is fast my wife, Save that we do the denunciation lack Of outward order: this we came not to, Only for propagation of a dower Remaining in the coffer of her friends, From whom we thought it meet to hide our love Till time had made them for us. But it chances The stealth of our most mutual entertainment With character too gross is writ on Juliet. So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have been actually married except without the official banns being posted. As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all parallel. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Aug 25 14:50:39 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 07:50:39 -0700 Subject: "few and far in between" Message-ID: on my blog: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/few-and-far-in-between/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 14:56:35 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:56:35 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: <201108251434.p7PAnScW031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I vote for "securely". Under the laws of the time, it was possible to engage in a secret marriage, but the couple was not entitle to copulate until the marriage was publicly declared. That is Claudio's issue here -- he is married (upon a true contract...she is fast my wife), but he also "got possession" of his wife's bed without the "denunciation ... of outward order". DanG On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: a missing "fast"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last = > night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond = > to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, = > Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical = > fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by=85well, = > you'll see: > > CLAUDIO: > Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract > I got possession of Julietta's bed: > You know the lady; she is fast my wife, > Save that we do the denunciation lack > Of outward order: this we came not to, > Only for propagation of a dower > Remaining in the coffer of her friends, > =46rom whom we thought it meet to hide our love > Till time had made them for us. But it chances > The stealth of our most mutual entertainment > With character too gross is writ on Juliet. > > So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have = > been actually married except without the official banns being posted. = > As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the = > third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his = > wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's = > striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the = > German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense = > persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry = > for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', = > 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated = > manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with = > the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that = > secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all = > parallel. =20 > > LH > =09= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 15:05:30 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:05:30 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I vote for "securely". Under the laws of the time, it was possible to > engage in a secret marriage, but the couple was not entitle to > copulate until the marriage was publicly declared. That is Claudio's > issue here -- he is married (upon a true contract...she is fast my > wife), but he also "got possession" of his wife's bed without the > "denunciation ... of outward order". > DanG I guess so; the use just didn't seem to quite fit under the 'secure' entry for "fast", and then there is the curious but maybe just coincidental fact about the German "fast"… LH > > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: a missing "fast"? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last = >> night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond = >> to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, = >> Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical = >> fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by=85well, = >> you'll see: >> >> CLAUDIO: >> Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract >> I got possession of Julietta's bed: >> You know the lady; she is fast my wife, >> Save that we do the denunciation lack >> Of outward order: this we came not to, >> Only for propagation of a dower >> Remaining in the coffer of her friends, >> =46rom whom we thought it meet to hide our love >> Till time had made them for us. But it chances >> The stealth of our most mutual entertainment >> With character too gross is writ on Juliet. >> >> So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have = >> been actually married except without the official banns being posted. = >> As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the = >> third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his = >> wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's = >> striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the = >> German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense = >> persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry = >> for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', = >> 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated = >> manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with = >> the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that = >> secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all = >> parallel. =20 >> >> LH >> =09= >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 15:12:51 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:12:51 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: <201108251505.p7PAwb36021280@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Regarding the German, the cognate for English "fast" is the German "fest". Close enough for government work? DanG On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: a missing "fast"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> I vote for "securely". Under the laws of the time, it was possible to >> engage in a secret marriage, but the couple was not entitle to >> copulate until the marriage was publicly declared. That is Claudio's >> issue here -- he is married (upon a true contract...she is fast my >> wife), but he also "got possession" of his wife's bed without the >> "denunciation ... of outward order". >> DanG > > I guess so; the use just didn't seem to quite fit under the 'secure' entry for "fast", and then there is the curious but maybe just coincidental fact about the German "fast"… > > LH >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: a missing "fast"? >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last = >>> night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond = >>> to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, = >>> Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical = >>> fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by=85well, = >>> you'll see: >>> >>> CLAUDIO: >>> Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract >>> I got possession of Julietta's bed: >>> You know the lady; she is fast my wife, >>> Save that we do the denunciation lack >>> Of outward order: this we came not to, >>> Only for propagation of a dower >>> Remaining in the coffer of her friends, >>> =46rom whom we thought it meet to hide our love >>> Till time had made them for us. But it chances >>> The stealth of our most mutual entertainment >>> With character too gross is writ on Juliet. >>> >>> So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have = >>> been actually married except without the official banns being posted. = >>> As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the = >>> third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his = >>> wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's = >>> striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the = >>> German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense = >>> persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry = >>> for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', = >>> 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated = >>> manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with = >>> the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that = >>> secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all = >>> parallel. =20 >>> >>> LH >>> =09= >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Aug 25 15:47:41 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:47:41 -0500 Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108250719.p7OKngXY028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE You can find cites in _Life_ in Google Books in the 1930s, 40s and 50s. _Billboard_ has it up into the 1960s. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > victor steinbok > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 2:19 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > This is nothing particularly earth-shattering, but the OED quotations > terminate in the 1870s. > > http://goo.gl/1BCou > Evening Post, Volume CXI, Issue 133, 5 June 1926 > The World Greatest Dancer. Page 9 (last graf) > > > Miss Thursa Rogers, who has made a good reputation in London and Paris as a > > premiere danseuse, lived in Wellington until six years ago. > > > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 16:29:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:29:16 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: <201108251513.p7PAtruY017138@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm not sure I see the alternative, but I have no expertise in the matter. OED fast adj.: I. Firm. > 1. a. Firmly fixed in its place; not easily moved or shaken; settled, > stable. Obs. or arch. exc. as said predicatively of something fixed as in a > socket (e.g. a nail, a post), where the sense approaches 4. > b. In immaterial sense; esp. Of a person, his attributes, feelings, etc.: > Not easily turned aside, constant, firm, steadfast. Now only in fast foe > (arch.), fast friend; in the latter the adj. is commonly apprehended in > sense 4. > ... > d. †Of sleep: Deep, sound, unbroken. Of persons: = fast asleep at sense > 1e. Obs. exc. dial. > e. fast aground, fast ashore: (of a vessel) fixed on the ground, the > shore. fast asleep: fixed in sleep, sound asleep, in a deep sleep.In these > phrases fast seems to have been originally the grammatical predicate; now it > is usually apprehended as an adv. qualifying aground, ashore, asleep. > f. Of a colour: That will not quickly fade or wash out; permanent. Also > fast-colour attrib. > g. fast line (Surveying): see quot. 1807. hard and fast line: see hard and > fast adj. Also, 4. a. Firmly attached to something else; that cannot easily escape or be > extricated; fixed to the spot; lit. and fig. Said both of persons and > things. Given a choice, I would have said it's 4.a., not 1.a. that's in play here (in Measure for Measure). On the other hand, another one from the same period is 1.d. (should be among the quotations too): Beaumont & Fletcher. The Queen of Corinth [1616?] Act 2. Scene 1. > Mer. ... Goodness, hold my hope fast, And in thy mercies look upon my > ruins, And then I am right!--My eyes grow dead and heavy.-- > [Enter six disguised, singing and dancing to a horrid music, and sprinkling > water on her face.] > Wrong me no more, as ye are men! [Faints.] > The. She is fast! > Cra. Away with her! [Exeunt, bearing her off. ] ... Scene 3. > [Enter THEANOR, CRATES, and ERATON carrying MERIONE.] > Era. This is her brother's door. > Cra. There lay her down, then; > Lay her along. She is fast still? > Era. As forgetfulness. > Cra. Be not you stirr'd now, but away to your mother; > Give all attendance; let no stain appear > Of fear or doubt in your face; carry yourself confidently. Then, there's Massinger, who also uses 4.a., but in a more literal sense ("bind fast"). Philip Massinger The Bashful Lover. [1655] Act 3. Scene 3. > Pisan. What shall we do? Or end our Difference in killing her, Or fight it out? > Alon. To the last Gasp. I feel The moist Tears on my Cheeks, and blush to find A Vijgin's Plaints can move so. > Pisan. To prevent Her Flight while we contend, let's bind her fast To this Cypress-Tree. > Alon. Agreed. > Matil. It does presage > My Funeral Rites. > Gal. I shall turn Atheist, > If Heaven see and suffer this. Why did I > Abandon my good Sword? with unarm'd Hands > I cannot rescue her. Some Angel pluck. me > From the Apostacy I'm falling to, > And by a Miracle lend me a Weapon > To underprop falling Honour. > Pisan. She is fast, > Resume your Arms. > Alon. Honour, Revenge, the Maid too Lie at the Stake. I just don't see it. The Measure for Measure use seems to be straight match for 4.a. VS-) On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > Regarding the German, the cognate for English "fast" is the German "fest". > > Close enough for government work? > > DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 16:31:47 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:31:47 -0400 Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108251548.p7PAnSvU031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I did not mean to imply exclusivity--simply closing a 50 year gap. I'm sure it was in use for at least another 50 after that. VS-) On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > > > You can find cites in _Life_ in Google Books in the 1930s, 40s and 50s. > _Billboard_ has it up into the 1960s. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 17:09:55 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:09:55 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] Message-ID: Mid-twenty-ish, white male speaker: "I come home and all of my cosmetics [Springer, remember?] are _strewn_ [stroUn] all over the place …!" This is the first time that I've heard this pronunciation by anyone not a black person in or from Marshall, TX. I think! Of course, as long as I was unaware of any other possible pronunciation, use of this pronunciation by other people wouldn't have registered. And, IME, _strew[n]_, regardless of pronunciation, don't be falling trippingly from no whole lot of tongues. So, Youneverknow. I've long had the feeling that, in some cases, _done_ is the ghost of _have done_. But I couldn't recall with any certainty that I'd ever heard the "full" form used, except in my own mind. Here of late, though, I've heard it many times from the lips both of black speakers and of white speakers on the Springer Show, as in: "That's a damn *lie*! I _*have*_ done did that!" "She's right. _I've_ done called her that numerous of times." BTW, does anyone else have the impression that stuff comes and goes? At one time, the airwaves were swamped with people saying "forMIDable." Then, it just went away. Now, I've begun to hear it again, from time to time, as FORmidable," the same pronunciation as was used, IIRC, before the word had its fifteen minutes of fame. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 17:22:30 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:22:30 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, one issue I had was whether "fast" in "She is fast my wife" is really an adjective in the first place. I'd have thought it's an adverb. In "bind her fast", "hold X fast", etc. I have no problem diagnosing a 4a adjectival use, but "fast my wife" seems different. No ordinary adjectives appear in the frame "She is ____ my wife". Now "She is fast, my wife", that *would* be possible—but different. "She is securely my wife, save that..." is more or less possible, though, with FAST adv. 2a, as in 1850 E. B. Browning Rom. Page, And wedded fast were we. LH On Aug 25, 2011, at 12:29 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I'm not sure I see the alternative, but I have no expertise in the matter. > OED fast adj.: > > I. Firm. >> 1. a. Firmly fixed in its place; not easily moved or shaken; settled, >> stable. Obs. or arch. exc. as said predicatively of something fixed as in a >> socket (e.g. a nail, a post), where the sense approaches 4. >> b. In immaterial sense; esp. Of a person, his attributes, feelings, etc.: >> Not easily turned aside, constant, firm, steadfast. Now only in fast foe >> (arch.), fast friend; in the latter the adj. is commonly apprehended in >> sense 4. >> ... >> d. †Of sleep: Deep, sound, unbroken. Of persons: = fast asleep at sense >> 1e. Obs. exc. dial. >> e. fast aground, fast ashore: (of a vessel) fixed on the ground, the >> shore. fast asleep: fixed in sleep, sound asleep, in a deep sleep.In these >> phrases fast seems to have been originally the grammatical predicate; now it >> is usually apprehended as an adv. qualifying aground, ashore, asleep. >> f. Of a colour: That will not quickly fade or wash out; permanent. Also >> fast-colour attrib. >> g. fast line (Surveying): see quot. 1807. hard and fast line: see hard and >> fast adj. > > > Also, > > 4. a. Firmly attached to something else; that cannot easily escape or be >> extricated; fixed to the spot; lit. and fig. Said both of persons and >> things. > > > > Given a choice, I would have said it's 4.a., not 1.a. that's in play here > (in Measure for Measure). > > On the other hand, another one from the same period is 1.d. (should be among > the quotations too): > > Beaumont & Fletcher. > The Queen of Corinth [1616?] > Act 2. Scene 1. > >> Mer. ... Goodness, hold my hope fast, And in thy mercies look upon my >> ruins, And then I am right!--My eyes grow dead and heavy.-- >> [Enter six disguised, singing and dancing to a horrid music, and sprinkling >> water on her face.] >> Wrong me no more, as ye are men! [Faints.] >> The. She is fast! >> Cra. Away with her! [Exeunt, bearing her off. ] > > ... > Scene 3. > >> [Enter THEANOR, CRATES, and ERATON carrying MERIONE.] >> Era. This is her brother's door. >> Cra. There lay her down, then; >> Lay her along. She is fast still? >> Era. As forgetfulness. >> Cra. Be not you stirr'd now, but away to your mother; >> Give all attendance; let no stain appear >> Of fear or doubt in your face; carry yourself confidently. > > > > Then, there's Massinger, who also uses 4.a., but in a more literal sense > ("bind fast"). > > Philip Massinger > The Bashful Lover. [1655] > Act 3. Scene 3. > >> Pisan. What shall we do? > > Or end our > > Difference in killing her, Or fight it out? >> Alon. To the last Gasp. I feel The moist > > Tears on my Cheeks, and blush to find > > A Vijgin's Plaints can move so. >> Pisan. To prevent > > Her Flight while we contend, let's bind her fast > > To this Cypress-Tree. >> Alon. Agreed. >> Matil. It does presage >> My Funeral Rites. >> Gal. I shall turn Atheist, >> If Heaven see and suffer this. Why did I >> Abandon my good Sword? with unarm'd Hands >> I cannot rescue her. Some Angel pluck. me >> From the Apostacy I'm falling to, >> And by a Miracle lend me a Weapon >> To underprop falling Honour. >> Pisan. She is fast, >> Resume your Arms. >> Alon. Honour, Revenge, the Maid too Lie at the Stake. > > > > I just don't see it. The Measure for Measure use seems to be straight match > for 4.a. > > VS-) > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> >> Regarding the German, the cognate for English "fast" is the German "fest". >> >> Close enough for government work? >> >> DanG > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 17:39:59 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:39:59 -0400 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle Message-ID: http://shine.yahoo.com/event/fallfashion/grammar-fail-on-old-navys-college-t-shirts-uh-oh-2531551/ (Note: Heading is intended as irony.) JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 25 17:59:57 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:59:57 -0400 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/25/2011 01:39 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >http://shine.yahoo.com/event/fallfashion/grammar-fail-on-old-navys-college-t-shirts-uh-oh-2531551/ > >(Note: Heading is intended as irony.) Thanks. I missed this when it went by on the TV news yesterday. But I would only admit two of the four institutes specifically named to the rank of "higher learning". Joel Berson Degree graduate from two real institutes of higher learning >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 19:55:45 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:55:45 -0400 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle In-Reply-To: <201108251800.p7PG8wXS031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > two real institutes of higher learning MIT and Harvard. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 25 21:44:36 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:44:36 -0400 Subject: Red state, blue state Message-ID: On Hurricane Irene today -- Governor Bev Perdue* of North Carolina: "Prepare for the worst and pray for the best." Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York: "We hope for the best but we prepare for the worst." (Entrepreneur Arthur Perdue: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling.") * Although a Democrat, possibly looking to retain crossover Republican voters. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 25 22:00:49 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:00:49 -0700 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle In-Reply-To: <201108251800.p7PAwbKG021280@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There seems to be two meanings of "higher learning," one meaning "tertiary education" and the other meaning "lofty education." Is that right? I don't find a definition on Wiktionary, but the OED has this for "academic": "a. Of or belonging to an academy or institution for higher learning; hence, collegiate, scholarly." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/25/2011 01:39 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> http://shine.yahoo.com/event/fallfashion/grammar-fail-on-old-navys-college-t-shirts-uh-oh-2531551/ >> >> (Note: Heading is intended as irony.) > > Thanks. I missed this when it went by on the TV news yesterday. > > But I would only admit two of the four institutes specifically named > to the rank of "higher learning". > > Joel Berson > Degree graduate from two real institutes of higher learning ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 22:51:08 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:51:08 -0400 Subject: WOTY candidate: "spaghetti model" Message-ID: Not a model who's as thin as spaghetti, or one who eats it, but one of the models of the possible tracks for Hurricane Irene as it proceeds up the East Coast. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 23:39:26 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:39:26 -0400 Subject: WOTY candidate: "spaghetti model" In-Reply-To: <201108252251.p7PJNvwG031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > Not a model who's as thin as spaghetti, or one who eats > it, but one of the models of the possible tracks for Hurricane > Irene as it proceeds up the East Coast. There is a website that displays "Spaghetti Plots & Charts" for hurricanes called spaghettimodels.com. The name was registered in 2006, but the website may have been used for some other purpose in the past: Domain Name.......... spaghettimodels.com Creation Date........ 2006-08-31 Registration Date.... 2006-08-31 Mike's Weather Page Spaghetti Models Plots: Updated Computer Models / Spaghetti Plots & Charts Google Books has a volume with an unverified 2008 date that uses "spaghetti models" to refer to the display of information from computer models of hurricanes. Title The social construction of a special needs program for hurricanes Authors Robert E. Tabler (Jr), University of South Florida Publisher ProQuest, 2008 According to Participant 13, the new radar being used by the weather stations, are really good at showing where a storm is going. He also thinks that the spaghetti models are “confusing as hell” and that the cone model is easier to follow. GB has earlier examples of "spaghetti models" referring to computer models and computer programs, but the instances I quickly looked at were not connected to representing hurricane tracks. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Aug 26 12:59:53 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:59:53 +0100 Subject: Nounjective? Message-ID: It's not every year I discover a new part of speech. Colour me ignorant if "nounjective" is a well-known term. If someone would tell me where this rather disparaging term for what I'd call the attributive use of a noun comes from, I'd be deeply grateful. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nancyf at WORDWORKING.COM Fri Aug 26 13:19:05 2011 From: nancyf at WORDWORKING.COM (Nancy Friedman) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 06:19:05 -0700 Subject: a missing "fast"? Message-ID: A little late to this (I get the digest). I wondered about a connection to "handfasting," from Middle English "hondfesten," "to betroth." A couple of years ago I went to a wedding that included a handfasting ceremony: http://nancyfriedman.typepad.com/away_with_words/2009/08/word-of-the-week-ha ndfasting.html Nancy _______ Word of the week: Kinsley gaffe. http://nancyfriedman.typepad.com Nancy Friedman web www.wordworking.com blog http://nancyfriedman.typepad.com Top 10 Language Professionals Blog 2011 http://bit.ly/kHCN6u tel 510 652-4159 cel 510 304-3953 fax 866 871-1523 Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/Fritinancy -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:33 AM Subject: a missing "fast"? Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by.well, you'll see: CLAUDIO: Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract I got possession of Julietta's bed: You know the lady; she is fast my wife, Save that we do the denunciation lack Of outward order: this we came not to, Only for propagation of a dower Remaining in the coffer of her friends, >From whom we thought it meet to hide our love Till time had made them for us. But it chances The stealth of our most mutual entertainment With character too gross is writ on Juliet. So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have been actually married except without the official banns being posted. As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all parallel. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 13:59:01 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:59:01 -0400 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: <4E5798C9.6933.13B18E3@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 8:59 AM, Michael Quinion wrote: > It's not every year I discover a new part of speech. Colour me ignorant if > "nounjective" is a well-known term. If someone would tell me where this > rather disparaging term for what I'd call the attributive use of a noun > comes from, I'd be deeply grateful. > and why "substantive" wasn't good enough for the purpose LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 15:02:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:02:47 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/more-egotism/ > > —————————————————————————————— In the above post, Arnold characterizes the new pattern as "[reversed] substitute OLD for NEW instead of the older (and still standard) argument structure [standard] substitute NEW for OLD" I don't think we've discussed the intransitive counterpart, but I heard an intransitive reversed "substitute" on the radio this morning. Former star receiver Cris Carter, now an ESPN commentator on football matters, was on Mike & Mike in the Morning on ESPN radio discussing the possible impact on the Colts' season if the injury sidelining their superstar quarterback Peyton Manning persists. As Carter said of Manning, "If you substitute him…", you're bound to lose a lot (I wrote down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap, but I'm sure about the antecedent. For those of us still stuck with the older model of lexicon/syntax, that would have to be either "If you substitute for him" or "If you replace him…" to get the intended meaning; "If you substitute him" could only refer to the replacement. I tried googling "if you substitute him" and found this example of essentially the same structure but referring to the other kind of football. I assume the writer (on a Manchester City soccer blog) is from the U.K., whether or not the picture is a clue, but youneverknow. Anyway, if you work through BlueAnorak's quarrel with the Manchester City manager, he's saying the team gets worse when they "substitute" Elano, i.e. when they take him off the pitch (is that the right term?) and replace him with a substitute. This is the same point Carter was making about Manning, although *that* opinion is about as uncontroversial as they come. LH ======================================= http://www.wookieslair.com/node/3686 According to todays press, Hughes is demanding Micah and Elano step up to the plate... Sorry Hughes We know you don't like Elano. But when you substitute him, as you regularly do, do we look better or do we get far worse and look more likely to concede as a result? Evidence indicates that the later applies. Not Elano's fault then... … Got to say it I'm just so disapointed with you as a manager. What was good last season (our defending) has turned to garbage before our very eyes. Seemingly you have no answer to the problems. You have implemented changes to our defending that simply don't work and your substitutions stink the place out. So actually, I think it's time for YOU to step up to the plate. Manchester City - Ruining Football since 2008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Aug 26 15:41:25 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:41:25 +0100 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > and why "substantive" wasn't good enough for the purpose The term implies a noun being used as an adjective, frequently as a dismissive epithet. This is the example I came across that provoked my enquiry (there are numerous others online but none that I can find in printed works): 2011 Observer (London) 21 Aug. (New Review section) 25/1 Now the first parts of the first phase of its makeover by the Mancunian developers Urban Splash, to whom the nounjective `hipster´ tends to attach itself, is nearly complete. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Fri Aug 26 17:39:33 2011 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:39:33 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108251710.p7PG8wJ0031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > BTW, does anyone else have the impression that stuff comes and goes? > At one time, the airwaves were swamped with people saying > "forMIDable." Then, it just went away. Now, I've begun to hear it > again, from time to time, as FORmidable," the same pronunciation as > was used, IIRC, before the word had its fifteen minutes of fame. > > -- > -Wilson Yes, I've registered the same thing & have the impression that it's just one among many such examples. Can't bring any to mind just now.. AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 26 18:11:40 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:11:40 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261739.p7QAlSoR002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Alison Murie wrote: > > On Aug 25, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > BTW, does anyone else have the impression that stuff comes and goes? > > At one time, the airwaves were swamped with people saying > > "forMIDable." Then, it just went away. Now, I've begun to hear it > > again, from time to time, as FORmidable," the same pronunciation as > > was used, IIRC, before the word had its fifteen minutes of fame. > > > Yes, I've registered the same thing & have the impression that it's > just one among many such examples. Can't bring any to mind just now.. Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, "Formidable Opponent": http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan (That segment also has the blend "incompetlicit" -- "incompetent" + "complicit".) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 18:42:33 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:42:33 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) Message-ID: The "amateur" is Keith Humphries of RBC blog: http://goo.gl/99OoC > Listening just now to a radio report of the counter-clockwise spinning > Irene hurricane called to mind a night some years ago when I was lost in the > Surrey darkness, trying to find the house of an English friend. My friend > called me and said that I had made a mistake by turning left at the ring > road, where I should have instead traveled “anti-clockwise”. > I was surprised at the term, which I had never heard before. Its meaning is > transparent on its face, but what threw me off was that my friend didn’t use > my mother’s word “widdershins”, which I knew came from her UK ancestors. To > them, widdershins meant particularly walking around a church with the wall > always to one’s left rather than right, which could bring the devil’s curse > of bad luck. Compare OED: withershins | widdershins, adv. > Forms: 15– widder-, 16– wither-, (15 widdir-, weddir-, wod(d)er-, 15, 18 > wooder-); 15–18 -sins, 15– -shins, (15 -syns, -shynes, -shynnis, -son(n)is, > 15, 18 -sinnis, -sones, 16 -shines, 18 -schynnes).... (Show More) > Etymology: < Middle Low German weddersin(ne)s (compare wedersins > ‘contrario modo’, Kilian), < Middle High German widersinnes, < wider-wither- > prefix + genitive of sin (especially Middle German) = sind, sint way, > direction (see sithe n.1): compare Middle High German widersinnen to return. > In sense 2 associated with son, sun n.1... (Show Less) > dial. (chiefly Sc.). > †1. In a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way; to stand or start > withershins , (of the hair) to ‘stand on end’. Obs. > 2. In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun (considered > as unlucky or causing disaster). > withershin(s) | widdershin(s), adj. > Etymology: < withershins adv. > Moving in an anticlockwise direction, contrary to the apparent course of > the sun (considered as unlucky or sinister); unlucky, ill-fated, relating to > the occult. Note "anti-clockwise" both in the adj. lemma and in the blog post. Anti-clockwise has examples from 1898 to 1927, but that's still not as out-of-date as counter-clockwise, which only has two--1888 and 1890. GB search for {anticloskwise | "anti-clockwise"} <1898 returns 272 raw ghits, 52 raw for <1888, 12 actual, including three spuriously tagged and 9 math texts. http://goo.gl/kzjBv Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Volume 29. June 19, 1879 On the Secular Effects of Tidal Friction. By G. H. Darwin. pp. 176-7 > i. Then in fig. 1, for all points of the line of momentum from C through E > to infinity, /x/ is negative and /y/ is positive; therefore this indicates > an anti-clockwise revolution of the satellite, and a clockwise rotation of > the planet, but the m. of m. planetary rotation is greater than that of the > orbital motion. > ... > ii. For all points of the line of momentum from D through F to infinity, > /x/ is positive and /y/ is negative; therefore the motion of the satellite > is clockwise, and that of the planetary rotation anti-clockwise, but the m. > of m. of the orbital motion is greater than that of the planetary rotation. One of the other hits (1939) is a dictionary that lists sinister==climbing anti-clockwise. Similar search for counterclockwise yields 331 raw ghits <1888, 9 <1877, including 7 spuriously tagged. The remaining 2 are from the same year. http://goo.gl/rLwaK Principles of Mechanism. 2nd ed. By Robert Willis. London: 1870 p. 158 > Consequently if the screw be left handed, it must be turned counter > clockwise to enter a fixed nut, or put a movable nut in action upon the > extremity of its screw. p. 233 > Thus a series of points is obtained through which the curves can be drawn > as in Fig. 228 and theoretically they satisfy the condition of equalising > the velocity of the reciprocating piece. If the lower curve, which is the > driver, be rotated counter-clockwise its increasing radii will enable it > to press against the decreasing radii of the follower until the concave > salient point which terminates the long diameter of the driver is brought > into contact with /b/. p. 428 > We have already seen that the arrangement of the cord /DW/ prevents the > cylinder from revolving counter-clockwise, and leaves it free to be turned > the reverse way, while on the other hand the motion given by raising and > lowering the knob *G *grasps the cylinder and communicates rotation to it. > As this rotation is in the direction of the clock, when the knob is raised > the cord *BW *serves merely to steady the motion. http://goo.gl/jvJPb Geometric Optics. By Osmund Airy. London: 1870 p. 18 > For convenience the algebraic sign of the moment is said to be /positive/ > when the moment tends to turn the body in a direction /counter-clockwise/, > and /negative/ when it tends to turn the body in the /clockwise/ direction. pp. 51-2 > 30. ... If the couple tends to produce rotation in the clockwise > direction, the moment is said to be negative; and if counterclockwise, > positive. > 31. Representation of Couples. -- The couple involves magnitude (moment) > and direction (rotation), and may, therefore, be represented by an arrow, > the length of the line being proportional to the moment of the couple, and > the arrow indicating the direction of rotation. In order to make the matter > of direction of rotation clear, the agreement is made that the arrow be > drawn perpendicular to the plane of the couple on that side from which the > rotation appears counter-clockwise. > 32. ... The moment arrow of the resultant couple will be perpendicular to > the cover of the book and on the side from which the rotation appears > counter-clockwise. ... p. 169 > Angular velocity involves a magnitude and a direction, and may, therefore, > be represented by an arrow (see Fig. 119), the length of the arrow > representing the magnitude and drawn perpendicular to the plane of motion > such that if you look along the arrow, from its point, the motion appears > positive or negative; positive if counter-clockwise and negative if > clockwise. Both conventions (left-handed screw==counter-clockwise; positive direction of rotation==counter-clockwise) are fairly standard today, so it's interesting to find both in the same year, but it is doubtful either one is original. In fact, I am absolutely shocked that there is nothing in GB earlier than 1870 for either term. No point post-dating either one, as they are quite common (well, one more than the other). In any case, both need updated quotations on both ends. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 18:49:42 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:49:42 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261821.p7QAlSwF002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Same in David Lynch's Dune: "You'll make a FORmidable Duke." Did that line come from Patrick Stewart (Gurney Halleck)? I don't recall, at the moment, but it's early in the film, so easy to find. If it's a Pond-crossing difference, it might account for Colbert's pronunciation as put-on haughtiness. VS-) On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, > "Formidable Opponent": > > > http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan > > (That segment also has the blend "incompetlicit" -- "incompetent" + > "complicit".) > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 20:09:49 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:09:49 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261849.p7QAlS23002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My memory is playing tricks on me--it's been too long since I've seen the film. The line, in fact, puts the stress on the second syllable and is uttered by Freddie Jones (Thufir) @16:13 (theatrical release) or 26:45 (the long TV version). My apologies for the error. VS-) On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:49 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > Same in David Lynch's Dune: > > "You'll make a FORmidable Duke." > > Did that line come from Patrick Stewart (Gurney Halleck)? I don't recall, > at > the moment, but it's early in the film, so easy to find. If it's a > Pond-crossing difference, it might account for Colbert's pronunciation as > put-on haughtiness. > > VS-) > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > > > > Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, > > "Formidable Opponent": > > > > > > > http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan > > > > (That segment also has the blend "incompetlicit" -- "incompetent" + > > "complicit".) > > > > --bgz > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 20:33:45 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:33:45 -0400 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: <201108261541.p7QAlSc3002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here are two examples of nounjective. The date stamp on the first is from the sciforums.com website, and I do not know about its reliability. There is an earlier match in 2004 in the Google Groups indexer but the context was not clear to me. sciforums.com Why Bush&Cheney can not destroy Clarke Don Hakman 03-29-04, 11:58 AM The bottom line message being screamed is that Clarke is not likeable. His name is hardly ever used without adjectives like arrogant, selfish, whining, inconsistent liar and now the 'nounjective' Judas. http://www.sciforums.com/Why-Bush-Cheney-can-not-destroy-Clarke-t-34334.html Newsgroups: sci.lang.translation From: John Woodgate Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:28:18 +0000 Local: Fri, Feb 10 2006 4:28 am Subject: Re: Eng. to French: "Submit forms" It's another example of a 'nounjective' - noun used as adjective. I would say 'via submission forms', which still has a nounjective but I think it's acceptable, and certainly easier to understand. http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang.translation/msg/96dd533779505545 On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Michael Quinion wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Quinion > Organization: World Wide Words > Subject: Re: Nounjective? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Laurence Horn wrote: > >> and why "substantive" wasn't good enough for the purpose > > The term implies a noun being used as an adjective, frequently as a > dismissive epithet. This is the example I came across that provoked my > enquiry (there are numerous others online but none that I can find in > printed works): > > 2011 Observer (London) 21 Aug. (New Review section) 25/1 Now the first > parts of the first phase of its makeover by the Mancunian developers Urban > Splash, to whom the nounjective `hipster´ tends to attach itself, is > nearly complete. > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 20:41:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:41:22 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261821.p7QAlSwF002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, > "Formidable Opponent": > Very likely, it's Colbert's usage that has motivated me to ponder this, one of the questions of the ages.;-) Those of a certain age have fond memories of the late, great French actress, Claudette Colbair. _Colbert_ is a fairly common surname amongst the colored. When I discovered that Stephen is a native of South carolina, I ceased to wonder how that came to be the case. Among the black families that I know, some use the ordinary-English spelling pronunciation, others the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation. IMO, the use of the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation is an an affectation. Of course, there's no cool way to question anyone about that. So, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 21:00:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:00:04 -0400 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: <201108262034.p7QB4Op0002345@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Garson O'Toole quoted: > 'nounjective' - noun used as adjective Surely, the jargon of the field of linguistics *cries out* for the addition of this term! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 21:31:16 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:31:16 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <201108261502.p7QAna9V009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > "If you substitute him=85", you're bound to lose a lot (I wrote = > down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap _"If you substitute him", you're bound to lose a lot."_ For me, this is totally transparent. I have no problem seeing the ghost of [someone else for]. OTOH, it's annoying to have to wrestle the other structure to the ground in order to force it to reveal its hidden semantic structure. _I wrote down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap._ Surely, you couldn't have been anticipating another, different outcome, in such a case!;-) Though, at the time, it must have felt like only the sensible thing to do, of course. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 21:45:36 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:45:36 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ Message-ID: >From the Sophos eNews newsletter: _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your smartphone? My spellcheck is familiar with only with only _hijacking, carjacking_, and oddly, _clickjacking_. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Aug 26 21:59:05 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:59:05 -0500 Subject: Query: Source of a Roman Jakobson quote Message-ID: I'm trying to find a reference for the following quote of the eminent linguist Roman Jakobson: "A bad theory leads to a better theory. The absence of a theory leads to nothing." Would anyone perhaps know or be able to furnish a lead? G. Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 22:38:35 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:38:35 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> "If you substitute him=85", you're bound to lose a lot (I wrote = >> down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap > > _"If you substitute him", you're bound to lose a lot."_ > > For me, this is totally transparent. I have no problem seeing the > ghost of [someone else for]. OTOH, it's annoying to have to wrestle > the other structure to the ground in order to force it to reveal its > hidden semantic structure. > > _I wrote down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap._ > > Surely, you couldn't have been anticipating another, different > outcome, in such a case!;-) Though, at the time, it must have > felt like only the sensible thing to do, of course. > > -- > -Wilson Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly it's the latter that was intended. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 22:54:17 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:54:17 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> From the Sophos eNews newsletter: > > _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk > You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and > _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, > _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes > _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your > smartphone? > > > My spellcheck is familiar with only with only _hijacking, carjacking_, > and oddly, _clickjacking_. > Isn't clickjacking what the Southern Bantu languages did to those poor Khoisan languages (we used to call them Hottentot and Bushman, but I know more correct labels have now been affixed, probably bearing those -jacked clicks. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 23:04:06 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:04:06 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ In-Reply-To: <201108262146.p7QB4Oss002345@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Clickjacking is the use of a script overlayed on a frame on a web page--when you click on the buttons in the frame, it leads to undesirable results. The word appears frequently if you install NoScript extension in Firefox or Chrome. One of the names for the NOTW scandal was "phone jacking". There are other uses of phone-jacking. One I've spotted recently was using a cell phone to take a photo of a credit card while standing next to the register in a store or video recording someone entering the passkey at an ATM. I've spotted "Blue-jacking"--getting access to an unprotected phone or laptop via BlueTooth. Side-jacking is one of the names for swiping information off smartcards via RFID access. A.K.A. "I-jacking" (identity jacking). Cookie-jacking is to cookies what click-jacking is to clicks. lo-jacking is the opposite kind of jacking--associated with "LoJack". One page I spotted mentions "lo-jacking your dog". Card jacking--stealing credit card information as an extension of authorized access, e.g., by waitstaff at a restaurant. Also occasionally refers to what's listed above as phone-jacking. Seat-jacking is actually a very common bike crime (stealing quick-release seats), but some people use the expression for other purposes. VS-) On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > From the Sophos eNews newsletter: > > _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk > You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and > _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, > _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes > _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your > smartphone? > > > My spellcheck is familiar with only with only _hijacking, carjacking_, > and oddly, _clickjacking_. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 26 23:53:32 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:53:32 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 06:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you >substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I >usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only >process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not >"If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly >it's the latter that was intended. 1) Why is this intransitive? 2) I also believe I've heard it on soccer ... er, football ... broadcasts. "Pele is being substituted" meaning "A substitute is coming in for Pele." Since this seems the passive to me, wouldn't the usage be transitive? That is, "him" in "When you substitute him" is the object of the verb. (In "substitute for him", it's the object of a preposition.) Or is my grammatical analysis defective? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 26 23:46:53 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:46:53 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ In-Reply-To: <201108262146.p7QB4Oss002345@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > From the Sophos eNews newsletter: > > _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk > You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and > _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, > _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes > _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your > smartphone? And let's not forget "swagger-jacking": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0810C&L=ADS-L&P=R2124 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 00:02:41 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 20:02:41 -0400 Subject: Secret erotic life of lexicographers (Noah Webster 1896) (Samuel Johnson 1906) Message-ID: Cite: 1896 April 21, Daily Iowa Capital, A New One by Chauncey, Page 6, Column 5, Des Moines, Iowa. (NewspaperArchive) At a recent dinner in New York a new story was sprung by Chauncey M. Depew. Speaking of the importance of humor, Mr. Depew declared that Noah Webster, though a lexicographer, was humorist. "His wife," Chauncey went on to say, "caught him one day kissing the cook. "'Noah,' she exclaimed, 'I'm surprised!' "'Madam,' he replied, 'you have not studied carefully our glorious language. It is I who am surprised. You are astounded.'" In 1903 an attempt was made to cover up the scandal with an odd report in a popular periodical. Cite: 1903 September, Everybody's Magazine, With "Everybody's" Publishers, A Surprising Letter, Page 419, Column 2, Volume 9, The Ridgway-Thayer Company, New York. (Google Books full view) A story is told of Noah Webster, the dictionary maker, who one day was found by his wife at dinner without coat or collar while entertaining two guests. His wife's sudden and unexpected return and entrance to the room brought those present to their feet. "I am surprised," said Mrs. Webster, And Mr. Webster rejoined, "My dear, I am surprised—you are astonished." http://books.google.com/books?id=mG0XAQAAIAAJ&q=%22or+collar%22#v=snippet& Remarkably, Dr. Johnson was also caught in flagrante delicto; however, the anecdote about the event was inexplicably delayed for more than a century. Cite: 1906 January, Midland Druggist [Interstate Druggist], Sense and Nonsense, Page 446, Column 1, Volume 7, Number 5, Midland Publishing Company, Columbus, Ohio. (Google Books full view) The famous Dr. Johnson was discovered one day by Mrs. Johnson kissing one of her serving maids. "Why, Dr. Johnson," said his wife, "I am surprised." "No," said the recreant husband,"that is not exactly right dear. I am surprised; you are astonished!" http://books.google.com/books?id=bclNAAAAMAAJ&q=recreant#v=snippet& Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 01:37:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 21:37:56 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <201108262353.p7QNrYtS026229@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 7:53 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/26/2011 06:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you >> substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I >> usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only >> process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not >> "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly >> it's the latter that was intended. > > 1) Why is this intransitive? Good point. I guess I was thinking in terms of my own dialect, in which the direct object of "substitute" is always the new quarterback, not the outgoing one. So a transitive "The Colts substituted Manning (for X)" would contrast with an intransitive "The Colts substituted (X for) Manning", where I'd have to say "The Colts substituted for Manning", which of course *would* be intransitive (unless you take "substitute for" to be a complex transitive predicate). But you're right in that for the speakers of the new dialect like Cris Carter, the direct object of "substitute" is the one who is replaced. It's really a difference in argument structure or meaning rather than one of transitivity. > > 2) I also believe I've heard it on soccer ... er, football ... > broadcasts. "Pele is being substituted" meaning "A substitute is > coming in for Pele." My second example, from the web, was indeed from a soccer context, but it wasn't passive. Again, my passive here (or what's sometimes called a pseudo-passive or prepositional passive) would have to be "Pele is being substituted for". > > Since this seems the passive to me, wouldn't the usage be > transitive? That is, "him" in "When you substitute him" is the > object of the verb. (In "substitute for him", it's the object of a > preposition.) Or is my grammatical analysis defective? > No, as mentioned, it's just a matter of my accepting that the replacement can be the direct object of "substitute"; I grant that that's a case of my narrowness; both lexical frames allow "The Colts substituted Manning", it's just a question of whether Manning has just run onto the field (my dialect) or off it (Carter's). Or perhaps there are speakers for whom it's simply ambiguous. I have to grant that "They substituted him" is just as transitive for the speakers of the other dialect as "They replaced him" is for me. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Aug 27 02:31:24 2011 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 22:31:24 -0400 Subject: noun attributive Message-ID: This seems like the logical, historical, and adequate term to me. Regards in advance of Irene (for those of you who are about to be visited), DKB Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 03:04:18 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:04:18 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 4:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: >> Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, >> "Formidable Opponent": >> > > Very likely, it's Colbert's usage that has motivated me to ponder > this, one of the questions of the ages.;-) > > Those of a certain age have fond memories of the late, great French > actress, Claudette Colbair. > > _Colbert_ is a fairly common surname amongst the colored. When I > discovered that Stephen is a native of South carolina, I ceased to > wonder how that came to be the case. > > Among the black families that I know, some use the ordinary-English > spelling pronunciation, others the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation. IMO, > the use of the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation is an an affectation. Of > course, there's no cool way to question anyone about that. So, > > Youneverknow. And for Claudette Colbert the "bare" pronunciation was no pswaydo affectation; she was actually French, although I never noticed an accent. I see from Wikipedia that her family emigrated here when she was three, which I guess explains that. She had a great voice in any case, and was very funny, but then I'm prejudiced, since she was one of the actresses I had a crush on. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 03:10:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:10:22 -0400 Subject: noun attributive In-Reply-To: <201108270231.p7QJWNPf002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:31 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > This seems like the logical, historical, and adequate term to me. > > Regards in advance of Irene (for those of you who are about to be visited), "Different strokes," etc.;-) Apparently, for those of us residing in NE PA, Irene will *not* be the second coming of 1972's Hurricane Agnes, when floodwaters of the Susquehanna rose to four feet on the *second* floor of my wife's family manse, leading to the loss of her high school yearbook and the demise of Daphne, the family kitty, among other tragedies. Astoundingly, the house itself *survived* and is now occupied by the current patriarch and his family. I was at Chapel Hill at the time. I recall that there was hella rain, but not a whole lot of damage there. Can I get a witness, Ron? BTW, a preacher "gets a witness" when at least one member of the congregation responds with "Amen [,e:'mAn]!" "Can I get a 'Amen!'?!" and "Say 'Amen!'(, somebody)!" are variants. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 03:12:29 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:12:29 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No mention of the opposite of withershins/widdershins in any of the below, viz. "deasil" (= 'with the apparent direction of the sun', i.e. clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere). Note that "widdershins" and "deasil" are respectively clockwise and counter-clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere, assuming that one's analog clocks go in the same direction there as they do here. In another generation, nobody will know what counter- (or anti-)clockwise refers to. LH On Aug 26, 2011, at 2:42 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > The "amateur" is Keith Humphries of RBC blog: > > http://goo.gl/99OoC > >> Listening just now to a radio report of the counter-clockwise spinning >> Irene hurricane called to mind a night some years ago when I was lost in the >> Surrey darkness, trying to find the house of an English friend. My friend >> called me and said that I had made a mistake by turning left at the ring >> road, where I should have instead traveled “anti-clockwise”. >> I was surprised at the term, which I had never heard before. Its meaning is >> transparent on its face, but what threw me off was that my friend didn’t use >> my mother’s word “widdershins”, which I knew came from her UK ancestors. To >> them, widdershins meant particularly walking around a church with the wall >> always to one’s left rather than right, which could bring the devil’s curse >> of bad luck. > > > > Compare OED: > > withershins | widdershins, adv. >> Forms: 15– widder-, 16– wither-, (15 widdir-, weddir-, wod(d)er-, 15, 18 >> wooder-); 15–18 -sins, 15– -shins, (15 -syns, -shynes, -shynnis, -son(n)is, >> 15, 18 -sinnis, -sones, 16 -shines, 18 -schynnes).... (Show More) >> Etymology: < Middle Low German weddersin(ne)s (compare wedersins >> ‘contrario modo’, Kilian), < Middle High German widersinnes, < wider-wither- >> prefix + genitive of sin (especially Middle German) = sind, sint way, >> direction (see sithe n.1): compare Middle High German widersinnen to return. >> In sense 2 associated with son, sun n.1... (Show Less) >> dial. (chiefly Sc.). >> †1. In a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way; to stand or start >> withershins , (of the hair) to ‘stand on end’. Obs. >> 2. In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun (considered >> as unlucky or causing disaster). >> > > > withershin(s) | widdershin(s), adj. >> Etymology: < withershins adv. >> Moving in an anticlockwise direction, contrary to the apparent course of >> the sun (considered as unlucky or sinister); unlucky, ill-fated, relating to >> the occult. > > > > Note "anti-clockwise" both in the adj. lemma and in the blog post. > Anti-clockwise has examples from 1898 to 1927, but that's still not as > out-of-date as counter-clockwise, which only has two--1888 and 1890. > > GB search for {anticloskwise | "anti-clockwise"} <1898 returns 272 raw > ghits, 52 raw for <1888, 12 actual, including three spuriously tagged and 9 > math texts. > > http://goo.gl/kzjBv > Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Volume 29. June 19, 1879 > On the Secular Effects of Tidal Friction. By G. H. Darwin. pp. 176-7 > >> i. Then in fig. 1, for all points of the line of momentum from C through E >> to infinity, /x/ is negative and /y/ is positive; therefore this indicates >> an anti-clockwise revolution of the satellite, and a clockwise rotation of >> the planet, but the m. of m. planetary rotation is greater than that of the >> orbital motion. >> ... >> ii. For all points of the line of momentum from D through F to infinity, >> /x/ is positive and /y/ is negative; therefore the motion of the satellite >> is clockwise, and that of the planetary rotation anti-clockwise, but the m. >> of m. of the orbital motion is greater than that of the planetary rotation. > > > > One of the other hits (1939) is a dictionary that lists sinister==climbing > anti-clockwise. > > Similar search for counterclockwise yields 331 raw ghits <1888, 9 <1877, > including 7 spuriously tagged. The remaining 2 are from the same year. > > > http://goo.gl/rLwaK > Principles of Mechanism. 2nd ed. By Robert Willis. London: 1870 > p. 158 > >> Consequently if the screw be left handed, it must be turned counter >> clockwise to enter a fixed nut, or put a movable nut in action upon the >> extremity of its screw. > > p. 233 > >> Thus a series of points is obtained through which the curves can be drawn >> as in Fig. 228 and theoretically they satisfy the condition of equalising >> the velocity of the reciprocating piece. If the lower curve, which is the >> driver, be rotated counter-clockwise its increasing radii will enable it >> to press against the decreasing radii of the follower until the concave >> salient point which terminates the long diameter of the driver is brought >> into contact with /b/. > > p. 428 > >> We have already seen that the arrangement of the cord /DW/ prevents the >> cylinder from revolving counter-clockwise, and leaves it free to be turned >> the reverse way, while on the other hand the motion given by raising and >> lowering the knob *G *grasps the cylinder and communicates rotation to it. >> As this rotation is in the direction of the clock, when the knob is raised >> the cord *BW *serves merely to steady the motion. > > > > http://goo.gl/jvJPb > Geometric Optics. By Osmund Airy. London: 1870 > p. 18 > >> For convenience the algebraic sign of the moment is said to be /positive/ >> when the moment tends to turn the body in a direction /counter-clockwise/, >> and /negative/ when it tends to turn the body in the /clockwise/ direction. > > pp. 51-2 > >> 30. ... If the couple tends to produce rotation in the clockwise >> direction, the moment is said to be negative; and if counterclockwise, >> positive. >> 31. Representation of Couples. -- The couple involves magnitude (moment) >> and direction (rotation), and may, therefore, be represented by an arrow, >> the length of the line being proportional to the moment of the couple, and >> the arrow indicating the direction of rotation. In order to make the matter >> of direction of rotation clear, the agreement is made that the arrow be >> drawn perpendicular to the plane of the couple on that side from which the >> rotation appears counter-clockwise. >> 32. ... The moment arrow of the resultant couple will be perpendicular to >> the cover of the book and on the side from which the rotation appears >> counter-clockwise. ... > > p. 169 > >> Angular velocity involves a magnitude and a direction, and may, therefore, >> be represented by an arrow (see Fig. 119), the length of the arrow >> representing the magnitude and drawn perpendicular to the plane of motion >> such that if you look along the arrow, from its point, the motion appears >> positive or negative; positive if counter-clockwise and negative if >> clockwise. > > > > Both conventions (left-handed screw==counter-clockwise; positive direction > of rotation==counter-clockwise) are fairly standard today, so it's > interesting to find both in the same year, but it is doubtful either one is > original. In fact, I am absolutely shocked that there is nothing in GB > earlier than 1870 for either term. No point post-dating either one, as they > are quite common (well, one more than the other). In any case, both need > updated quotations on both ends. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 03:31:00 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:31:00 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108270304.p7QK0ltP009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > And for Claudette Colbert the "bare" pronunciation was no pswaydo affectation I agree. I meant that, IMO, the Frenchette (cf. _butterette_ "margarine [,ma:dZ@'rI:n]"; _leatherette_) pronunciation as used among the *colored* is pswaydo, not that its use by Americans is pswaydo in general. BTW, I'm glad to that my memory that Claudette had no particular accent, French or other, is supported! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 03:38:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:38:47 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <201108270312.p7QK0ltb009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > No mention of the opposite of withershins/widdershins in any of the below, viz. "deasil" (= 'with the apparent direction of the sun', i.e. clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere). � Note that "widdershins" and "deasil" are respectively clockwise and counter-clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere, assuming that one's analog clocks go in the same direction there as they do here. � In another generation, nobody will know what counter- (or anti-)clockwise refers to. > I've been familiar with "withershins"/"widdershins" from earliest childhood. It occurs in fairy tales, e.g. East of the Sun and West of the Moon. But _anti-clockwise_, _deasil_? This is my first encounter with either of them. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 05:01:36 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 01:01:36 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" Message-ID: Reminiscent of questions like "What's he gonna pay? Two men to do the same job?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 14:25:35 2011 From: b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:25:35 -0400 Subject: An 1838 sighting of the "brass monkey" expression Message-ID: The OED cites Melville's 1847 use of "It was 'ot enough to melt the nose h'off a brass monkey" as a very early instance of the use of this "brass monkey" expression. For what it's worth, here's one from 1838: Old Knites was as cool as a cucumber, and would have been so independent of the weather, which was cold enough to freeze the nose off of a brass monkey. (From "Stray Leaves from a Straggler's Note Book: A Heroic Woman and a Womanish Hero," *The Morning Herald* [New York, New York], 30 May 1838, p. 2.) -- Bonnie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 14:41:13 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:41:13 -0400 Subject: Hurricanes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 11:10 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >Apparently, for those of us residing in NE PA, Irene will *not* be the >second coming of 1972's Hurricane Agnes, when floodwaters of the >Susquehanna rose to four feet on the *second* floor of my wife's >family manse, leading to the loss of her high school yearbook and the >demise of Daphne, the family kitty, among other tragedies. I was fully expecting you to reminisce about the hurricane of '38, Wilson. :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 14:45:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:45:51 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 11:12 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > In another generation, nobody will know what counter- (or > anti-)clockwise refers to. And medical instruction and skill will suffer. During my cataract operation, I could hear the surgeon describing positions to the intern assisting him as "at three o'clock", etc. When the operation was over, I asked him what he would do when there were no more analog clock faces. He didn't reply directly, but said that he has preserved one in his basement so that he can instruct his children. (Maybe he intends them to become the only eye surgeons who can do cataract removal well.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 14:50:37 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 07:50:37 -0700 Subject: "critter" Message-ID: A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 14:51:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:51:06 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <72F4B71A-3879-4CB2-B0BE-5C99C808C074@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 09:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >both lexical frames allow "The Colts substituted Manning", it's just >a question of whether Manning has just run onto the field (my >dialect) or off it (Carter's). Part of my previous comment was just that I've heard (I think) Carter's dialect in soccer broadcasts. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Sat Aug 27 15:22:04 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:22:04 +0000 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271450.p7RAu7Us007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not in my 60+ years living in the South! I have heard the word used--well, all right, insensitively--for burn vicitms (usually dead): "crispy critters." --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Arnold Zwicky [zwicky at STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 10:50 AM A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 27 16:26:29 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:26:29 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271450.p7RAu7Us007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/27/2011 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: "critter" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? -- Not I. If there was such a usage with wide currency, would the "Crispy Critters" cereal name have been introduced twice (1960's, 1987 re Wiki)? I have myself encountered two slang [sub-]senses which I don't see in a glance at the usual books: (1) "critter[s]" = "small child[ren]" [I think maybe usually humorous or lightly disparaging, something like "rug rat"]; (2) "the critters" = "the crabs" (i.e., crab-louse infestation). -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 16:30:18 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:30:18 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108270502.p7QK0l8X009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Reminiscent of questions like > > "What's he gonna pay? Two men to do the same job?" > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea at UMICH.EDU Sat Aug 27 16:33:44 2011 From: aandrea at UMICH.EDU (Andrea Morrow) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:33:44 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271627.p7RB9hRG004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is used extensively there as one of the milder references by the white characters to the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. Andrea On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "critter" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 8/27/2011 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: "critter" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter > and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten > confused. The basic facts about the books: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer > Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a > Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him > looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. > He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in > 1977] > > > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been > used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." > (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial > slur? > > > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her > life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in > any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about > the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution > of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to > disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was > no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks > or others). > > > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" > used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small > group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? > -- > > Not I. > > If there was such a usage with wide currency, would the "Crispy > Critters" cereal name have been introduced twice (1960's, 1987 re Wiki)? > > I have myself encountered two slang [sub-]senses which I don't see in a > glance at the usual books: (1) "critter[s]" = "small child[ren]" [I > think maybe usually humorous or lightly disparaging, something like "rug > rat"]; (2) "the critters" = "the crabs" (i.e., crab-louse infestation). > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Andrea Morrow Director of Writing Programs Stephen M. Ross School of Business The University of Michigan Room R3478 Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1234 aandrea at umich.edu 734.763.9317 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 17:01:41 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:01:41 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Worth more than a little, I think. Googling one edition shows 4 instances of "critter". From an 1852 edition, vol. 2, GBooks full view. Topsy speaking of herself: "I spects I's the wickedest critter in the world." [Surely this must have made the YBQ! Or at least a stage version.] Page 50. A master speaking of a slave: "Well, here's a pious dog ... Powerful holy critter, he must be!" Page 197. Tom speaking of his master: "Ye poor miserable critter! ... there an't no more ye can do! I forgive ye, with all my soul!" Page 274. Tom talking to George (another slave?) about (I believe) a master: "O, don't---oh, ye mustn't! ... he's a poor mis'able critter! ... O, if he only could repent, the Lord would forgive him now ..." Page 281. Use by both masters and slaves is interesting. And I wonder if the master's use can really be considered racial. Joel At 8/27/2011 12:33 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: >FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is used >extensively there as one of the milder references by the white characters to >the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. > >Andrea > >On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > > Subject: Re: "critter" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On 8/27/2011 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > > Subject: "critter" > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter > > and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten > > confused. The basic facts about the books: > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > > > > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer > > Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a > > Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him > > looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > > > > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. > > He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books > starting in > > 1977] > > > > > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been > > used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in > this context." > > (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > > > > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial > > slur? > > > > > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her > > life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in > > any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting > things about > > the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution > > of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to > > disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), > but there was > > no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks > > or others). > > > > > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" > > used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small > > group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > > > > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? > > -- > > > > Not I. > > > > If there was such a usage with wide currency, would the "Crispy > > Critters" cereal name have been introduced twice (1960's, 1987 re Wiki)? > > > > I have myself encountered two slang [sub-]senses which I don't see in a > > glance at the usual books: (1) "critter[s]" = "small child[ren]" [I > > think maybe usually humorous or lightly disparaging, something like "rug > > rat"]; (2) "the critters" = "the crabs" (i.e., crab-louse infestation). > > > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >Andrea Morrow >Director of Writing Programs >Stephen M. Ross School of Business >The University of Michigan >Room R3478 >Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1234 >aandrea at umich.edu >734.763.9317 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 27 17:39:57 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:39:57 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271701.p7RB1rwb016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At a glance at the G-books 1852 edition of "Uncle Tom's Cabin" I see (without checking for duplicates, etc.) approximately 30 instances of "critter[s]"/"crittur[s]". The word seems to be "creature" in the usual sense[s]. I think in a couple of cases it refers to horses, dogs, and the like. I didn't attempt to identify the races of human referents, but at my glance the word does not seem restrictive by race or even by species. There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially apparent: "These critters an't like white folks ....", but I have the impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. Similarly an isolated instance of "These people ain't like us Americans" applied to [some or all] Englishmen would not imply the assertion that "people" has a sense "Englishmen" IMHO. Probably there's a term for such 'over-interpretation' or 'over-generalization'? (But my interpretation would depend on spoken stress: I assume it's "THESE critters" here but I would think again if I took it to be "these CRITTERS".) -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 17:46:54 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:46:54 -0700 Subject: reversed "blame" Message-ID: first "substitute", now "blame": http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/reversed-blame/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 18:31:44 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:31:44 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271450.p7RAu7Uu007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way _the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past_ makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "_critter_" used as _a milder version of the slur "nigger"_.) > I'll be John Brown! This is news to me! I don't think that I've ever even heard "critter" used in the wild in my entire life! I'm familiar with it, of course. But, when I come across it, I think, "Gabby Hayes," and not "Overt expression of racism!". IME, I can compare it only to the pejoration of _moist_ as being a concept that's just plain weird. The other night I was watching some tube and there was a scene featuring the old say-a-bad-word-and-put-a-quarter-into-the-jar sketches. Each 'bad" word had its own jar. The "Moist" jar was the only one overflowing with quarters. (My take was that the idea of "moist" as a *bad word" was being mocked. YMMV.) On the other side of the coin is the melioration of heretofore traditionally-"bad" words. My fellow East-Texan, Ellen DeGeneres opens her show by saying to her audience, "Hello, bitches!" Guys - and, sometimes, even *chicks*! - casually discuss "tapping that ass" during the "family" hour! Youneverknow. "Political correctness" is jut plain silly! Surely, there exist genuine expressions of racism that are far more worthy of popular attention, as well as far more subtle. E.g., the recent Republican statement that the assertion that there are "poor" [sic] people in the United States is utterly ridiculous. Why, nearly 100% of the "poor" own refrigerators! Compared to what? Having only iceboxes? That's the kind of thing that the bleeding hearts should be concerning themselves with, not the search for - or the invention of - new "racial slurs"! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 18:36:42 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 11:36:42 -0700 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/uncle-tomming/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 18:43:10 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:43:10 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <201108271747.p7RAu7eI007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Arnold Zwicky > Subject: � � � reversed "blame" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > first "substitute", now "blame": > > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/reversed-blame/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Perhaps that SF short story, Shall We Have a Little Talk, is entirely correct, on some level. Languages really *do* change, even as you're learning them! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 18:55:53 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:55:53 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271701.p7RB9hRe004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I'm with Doug Wilson on this one--all I see is critter==creature, with no particularly strong attachment to any slurs. Here's a selection from just one year's worth of a publication that covers critter/crittur==dog/horse/rattlesnake/mermaid/person/[unidentified animal]. http://goo.gl/zpiA8 Graham's Magazine. Volume 22. Philadelphia: 1843 No. 1 (January). How to Tell a Story. By Seba Smith. pp. 34-5 > "Well, the next night John took Rover--now Rover was the largest dog I ever > see, near about as large as a heifer, and the knowingest *critter* I ever > laid eyes on. Well, John took him out to the pen, and told him to watch the > sheep. John 'll never forget how that *critter* looked up in his face, and > licked his hand when he left him, just as if he knew what would come of it, > and wanted to say good bye; nor how he crouched down before the bars, and > laid his nose upon his paws, and looked after him solemnlike. Poor Rover! > The next morning John was up airly, for he felt kind a worried. He went out > to the sheep pen, and sure enough the first thing he see, was--(Polly, you > 've just cut a worm-hole into your apples)--the first thing he see, was > poor Rover dead I by the bars, his head torn right open, and another sheep > gone. John's dander was fairly up--he took down the gun, there it hangs on > the hooks, took his powder-horn and bullets, and started off. I tried to > coax him to set a trap, or to watch by the sheep-pen. But John always had a > will of his own, and was the courageousest man in the town, and he declared > he 'd have nothing to do with any such cowardly tricks. He 'd kill the * > critter* in broad day-light, if 'twas only to revenge poor Rover. So he > started off. He tracked the *critter* about a mile round by the mountain, > which in them days was covered with trees to the very top. [Review of] The Career of Puffer Hopkins. By Cornelius Mathews. ... New York, D. Appleton & Co. 1842. p. 59 > "Not more thnn twenty acres," responded the deepchested juror, with the air > of a gentleman carrying all before him; "and swimmin' a healthy run o' water > a rod wide give the *critter* a belly-full at any time." No. 2 (February). The Enchanted Gun. A Tennessee Story. By C. F. Hoffman. p. 62. > "You thought I would have been here before?" I exclaimed at last, in reply > to her singular salutation; "why, my good woman, I have lost my way, and > only stumbled upon your house by accident--you must take me for somebody > else." > "I 'm no good woman. Don't good woman me," she replied, with a scrutinizing > glance which had something, I thought, of almost fierceness in it, as > shading the now lighted candle with one hand, she turned scornfully round > and fixed her regards upon me. > "Yes! yes, strannger, you are the man, the very man that was to come at > this hour. I dreamed ye--I dreamed yer hoss--yer brown leggins and all, I > dreamed 'em--and now go look after yer *critter* while I get some supper for > ye." The Fire-Doomed. A Tale of the "Old Dominion". By Reynell Coates. p. 122 > "There, Mister," said his attendant, "I kinder calkilate you've ben sleepin > with a bed-feller not of your own choosin last night, any how. I 'd rather > keep to hum than come all the way up here after such a tarnal reptyle * > crittur* as that. It's well for you that our Crumple strayed away yester > noon, and the old woman took on so powerful about the milk. This chap was > quirled up close to your ear when I came upon you. Do tell! Arn't he a > swingeing big one?" And he lifted, upon the end of his stick, a monstrous > rattle-snake, whose head had been crushed by the last blow. His back had > been broken before the sleeper woke. > ... > "Now, you don't say! Come all the way from Virginia a huntin! Why, how > tired you must be! You 'd find it much easier to ride. May be you and me > couldn't make a bargain for my four-year-old? He's as handsome a * > crittur* as ever you see: he takes to the beach-woods as nateral and as > spry as a squirrel—gallops over log causeway and never stumbles--and gits > fat on nothin and potatoe rinds!" Volume 23 No. 2 (August). Jack Spanker and the Mermaid. By Elizabeth Okes Smith. pp. 69-70 > "I won 't deny, says I, you 're a nice lookin' gal, but what colors do you > sail under, how do you hail? I 've no notion bein' fool'd by any heathenish > *critter*, bred a Christian as I 've been. > "You should a seen her laugh. 'You may call me what pleases you best. Won't > you give me a name, Jack ?' > "No, faith, I mean to do that for Nelly. Howsomever, I do n't object to > call you Nelly jest one v'yge. > "The *critter* laughed agin, and I don't know how it was, she did look like > Nelly Spaulding. I rubbed my eyes over and over agin, but there she was > growin' more and more like her every minit. After awhile, says I, > ... > "You may well say that, says I, and none of your fish-ending and 'yster > kind of *critters* neither, for you must know I had n't hardly got over her > asking me to lake a trip to Davy's locker. I had n't well nigh got the words > out of my mouth, before there the *critter* was a sittin' on the jib-boom, > right before me, and two the funniest little feet just peeping out from > under her petticoats. I jest took my fore-finger and touched her little > white arm, same as I used to do to the dough, when my mother's back was > turned. And sure enough 'twas soft and warm, and nothing like clam or fish > about it. But she didn't mean to stay, for she jumped down agin, laughin' in > great fun. Then the mate called out, ' Jack, a'int you done that jib yet?' > "Aye, aye, mostly, sir, but there's been a confounded mermaid here plaguin' > me. Then the men all laughed, as if they thought it a good joke, but I knew > it was airnest. But what's the use tryin' to teach poor ignorant *critters* > what wont believe what a man tells them he has seen with his own eyes?" No. 6 (December). A Day in the Woods. Or English and American Game. By Frank Forester. p. 294 > "Yes, that is it, certainly--and those *are *hares and pheasants--and > that's a right smart Jersey trotter, I some guess--a *critter* that can > travel like a strick--and the boy holding him--that's a Long Island nigger, > now I calkilate, --oh, ya--as! and that's a Yorker on a gunnin' scrape, > stringin' them pheasants! ya--as;" and he spoke with so absurd an imitation > and exaggeration of the Yankee twang and drawl, that he set Heneage > laughing, though he was still more than half indignant. It's possible that someone divined that "critter" was a slur from various uses such as the ones in Uncle Tom, or a comment by a Sheridan scout (from his memoirs) concerning" Injuns and other critters". But, really, just substituting "creature" for "critter" makes it look less like a slur and just a term of general indifference. It applies in random measure to all sorts of animals--same as it does today, but without the additional connotation of smallness and cuteness, perhaps--to mermaids, to people of pretty much any creed. There is some derogatory sense in it, but that's not racial--just a general sense of contempt--and even that only on occasion. It certainly does not appear to have been /intended/ as a slur in the mid- to late 19th century (and entirely US). BTW, any attempt at antedating (OED--1815) failed in GB--all pre-1815 tags and many of 1816-1833 turned out to be spurious, some obviously so (including the Sheridan memoirs published in 1885 but tagged as 1825). VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Worth more than a little, I think. Googling one edition shows 4 > instances of "critter". From an 1852 edition, vol. 2, GBooks full view. > > Topsy speaking of herself: "I spects I's the wickedest critter in > the world." [Surely this must have made the YBQ! Or at least a > stage version.] Page 50. > > A master speaking of a slave: "Well, here's a pious dog ... Powerful > holy critter, he must be!" Page 197. > > Tom speaking of his master: "Ye poor miserable critter! ... there > an't no more ye can do! I forgive ye, with all my soul!" Page 274. > > Tom talking to George (another slave?) about (I believe) a master: > "O, don't---oh, ye mustn't! ... he's a poor mis'able critter! ... O, > if he only could repent, the Lord would forgive him now ..." Page 281. > > Use by both masters and slaves is interesting. And I wonder if the > master's use can really be considered racial. > > Joel > > At 8/27/2011 12:33 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: > >FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is used > >extensively there as one of the milder references by the white characters > to > >the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. > > > >Andrea > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Aug 27 18:46:11 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:46:11 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201108141536.p7EAlUfd026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I wrote about the misty origins of "nerd" for this Sunday's Boston Globe: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/28/birth_of_the_nerd/ Thanks to Garson et al. for their contributions. --bgz On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > > I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the > > word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary > > items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I > > also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared > > with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. > > > > Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John > > Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But > > Jigs and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. > > (Verified on paper) > > > > [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of > > typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. > > Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The > > caption is given below.] > > > > "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on > > the stick with these real fat, real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't > > be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about > > Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. > > They're MOST! Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big > > tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really made in the > > shade, and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a > > Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has > > it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is > > reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd > > ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" > [...] > > Thanks to Garson for tracking this down. For anyone keeping score, > here are the earliest known examples of "nerd" (disregarding Dr. > Seuss's use of the word in "If I Ran the Zoo," which appeared in > shortened form in _Redbook_ in July 1950 before being published in > book form later that year). Items in _The Age_, _Reader's Digest_, and > _Collier's_ all draw their teen slang terms directly from _Newsweek_, > while the _Herald-Press_ article is a bit more wide-ranging: > > --- > 1951 _Newsweek_ 8 Oct. 28 In Detroit, someone who once would be called > a drip or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe > case, a scurve. > > 1951 _The Age_ (Melbourne, Australia) 11 Oct. 4 ("U.S. Teen-agers Talk > a 'Cool, Shafty' Language") Teenagers in New York, Chicago, New > Orleans and Los Angeles who resort to such passe expressions are mere > peasants or "nerds.”... Such lowly "nerds" in other cities may on > occasion be hailed by acquaintances, with, "Hey, nosebleed." > http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=k8dVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IcQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5372,4309418 > > 1952 _Reader’s Digest_ Jan. 57 In Detroit, someone who once would have > been called a drip or a square is now a nerd, or in a less severe case > a scurve. > > 1952 _Collier’s_ 2 Feb. 39 (cartoon by John Norment, featuring radio > DJ reading a fictitious ad for "Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes") Don't be > a party-pooper or a nerd. > > 1952 _Herald-Press_ (St. Joseph, Mich.) 23 June 14 (“To 'Clue Ya' To > Be 'George' And Not A 'Nerd' Or 'Scurve'”) If the patois throws you, > you're definitely not in the know, because anyone who is not a nerd > (drip) knows that the bug is the family car. > --- > > --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Aug 27 19:10:08 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:10:08 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example Message-ID: I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like it. It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she happens to dislike. http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:14:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:14:47 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108271836.p7RAu7g4007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/uncle-tomming/ > According to the late-great: "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may _tom out_ on yo' ass." -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't Crap! (Laff Records) I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Aug 27 19:16:22 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:16:22 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271910.p7RB9hUs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an > example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca > blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan > Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that > can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about > three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like > it. > > It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to > antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is > not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have > checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she > happens to dislike. > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ Or she could have Googled up the On Language reader response I wrote last year on the topic: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/magazine/15onlanguage.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:19:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:19:04 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271910.p7RB9hUs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: � � � Recency illusion: today's example > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an > example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca > blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan > Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that > can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about > three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like > it. > > It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to > antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is > not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have > checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she > happens to dislike. > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > "What was old is new, again," to coin a phrade.:-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:20:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:20:53 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271916.p7RAu7jO007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jesse, Ben, you boys play nice, now.;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Ben Zimmer > Subject: � � � Re: Recency illusion: today's example > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> >> I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an >> example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca >> blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan >> Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that >> can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about >> three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like >> it. >> >> It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to >> antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is >> not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have >> checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she >> happens to dislike. >> >> > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ > > Or she could have Googled up the On Language reader response I wrote last year > on the topic: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/magazine/15onlanguage.html > > --bgz > > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:39:09 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:39:09 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271856.p7RAu7ha007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have never heard or even read it so used either. In regard to the usage of H. B. Stowe, readers of pulp westerns of a few generations ago will recall the frequent use of "critter" as a vaguely dismissive term for any human being. JL On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 2:55 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: "critter" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > FWIW, I'm with Doug Wilson on this one--all I see is > critter=3D=3Dcreature,= > with > no particularly strong attachment to any slurs. > > Here's a selection from just one year's worth of a publication that covers > critter/crittur=3D=3Ddog/horse/rattlesnake/mermaid/person/[unidentified > animal]. > > http://goo.gl/zpiA8 > Graham's Magazine. Volume 22. Philadelphia: 1843 > No. 1 (January). How to Tell a Story. By Seba Smith. pp. 34-5 > > > "Well, the next night John took Rover--now Rover was the largest dog I > ev= > er > > see, near about as large as a heifer, and the knowingest *critter* I ever > > laid eyes on. Well, John took him out to the pen, and told him to watch > t= > he > > sheep. John 'll never forget how that *critter* looked up in his face, > an= > d > > licked his hand when he left him, just as if he knew what would come of > i= > t, > > and wanted to say good bye; nor how he crouched down before the bars, and > > laid his nose upon his paws, and looked after him solemnlike. Poor Rover! > > The next morning John was up airly, for he felt kind a worried. He went > o= > ut > > to the sheep pen, and sure enough the first thing he see, was--(Polly, > yo= > u > > 've just cut a worm-hole into your apples)--the first thing he see, was > > poor Rover dead I by the bars, his head torn right open, and another > shee= > p > > gone. John's dander was fairly up--he took down the gun, there it hangs > o= > n > > the hooks, took his powder-horn and bullets, and started off. I tried to > > coax him to set a trap, or to watch by the sheep-pen. But John always > had= > a > > will of his own, and was the courageousest man in the town, and he > declar= > ed > > he 'd have nothing to do with any such cowardly tricks. He 'd kill the * > > critter* in broad day-light, if 'twas only to revenge poor Rover. So he > > started off. He tracked the *critter* about a mile round by the mountain, > > which in them days was covered with trees to the very top. > > > [Review of] The Career of Puffer Hopkins. By Cornelius Mathews. ... New > York, D. Appleton & Co. 1842. p. 59 > > > "Not more thnn twenty acres," responded the deepchested juror, with the > a= > ir > > of a gentleman carrying all before him; "and swimmin' a healthy run o' > wa= > ter > > a rod wide give the *critter* a belly-full at any time." > > > No. 2 (February). The Enchanted Gun. A Tennessee Story. By C. F. Hoffman. > p= > . > 62. > > > "You thought I would have been here before?" I exclaimed at last, in > repl= > y > > to her singular salutation; "why, my good woman, I have lost my way, and > > only stumbled upon your house by accident--you must take me for somebody > > else." > > "I 'm no good woman. Don't good woman me," she replied, with a > scrutinizi= > ng > > glance which had something, I thought, of almost fierceness in it, as > > shading the now lighted candle with one hand, she turned scornfully round > > and fixed her regards upon me. > > "Yes! yes, strannger, you are the man, the very man that was to come at > > this hour. I dreamed ye--I dreamed yer hoss--yer brown leggins and all, I > > dreamed 'em--and now go look after yer *critter* while I get some supper > = > for > > ye." > > > The Fire-Doomed. A Tale of the "Old Dominion". By Reynell Coates. p. 122 > > > "There, Mister," said his attendant, "I kinder calkilate you've ben > sleep= > in > > with a bed-feller not of your own choosin last night, any how. I 'd > rathe= > r > > keep to hum than come all the way up here after such a tarnal reptyle * > > crittur* as that. It's well for you that our Crumple strayed away yester > > noon, and the old woman took on so powerful about the milk. This chap was > > quirled up close to your ear when I came upon you. Do tell! Arn't he a > > swingeing big one?" And he lifted, upon the end of his stick, a monstrous > > rattle-snake, whose head had been crushed by the last blow. His back had > > been broken before the sleeper woke. > > ... > > "Now, you don't say! Come all the way from Virginia a huntin! Why, how > > tired you must be! You 'd find it much easier to ride. May be you and me > > couldn't make a bargain for my four-year-old? He's as handsome a * > > crittur* as ever you see: he takes to the beach-woods as nateral and as > > spry as a squirrel=97gallops over log causeway and never stumbles--and > gi= > ts > > fat on nothin and potatoe rinds!" > > > Volume 23 > No. 2 (August). Jack Spanker and the Mermaid. By Elizabeth Okes Smith. pp. > 69-70 > > > "I won 't deny, says I, you 're a nice lookin' gal, but what colors do > yo= > u > > sail under, how do you hail? I 've no notion bein' fool'd by any > heatheni= > sh > > *critter*, bred a Christian as I 've been. > > "You should a seen her laugh. 'You may call me what pleases you best. > Won= > 't > > you give me a name, Jack ?' > > "No, faith, I mean to do that for Nelly. Howsomever, I do n't object to > > call you Nelly jest one v'yge. > > "The *critter* laughed agin, and I don't know how it was, she did look > li= > ke > > Nelly Spaulding. I rubbed my eyes over and over agin, but there she was > > growin' more and more like her every minit. After awhile, says I, > > ... > > "You may well say that, says I, and none of your fish-ending and 'yster > > kind of *critters* neither, for you must know I had n't hardly got over > h= > er > > asking me to lake a trip to Davy's locker. I had n't well nigh got the > wo= > rds > > out of my mouth, before there the *critter* was a sittin' on the > jib-boom= > , > > right before me, and two the funniest little feet just peeping out from > > under her petticoats. I jest took my fore-finger and touched her little > > white arm, same as I used to do to the dough, when my mother's back was > > turned. And sure enough 'twas soft and warm, and nothing like clam or > fis= > h > > about it. But she didn't mean to stay, for she jumped down agin, > laughin'= > in > > great fun. Then the mate called out, ' Jack, a'int you done that jib > yet?= > ' > > "Aye, aye, mostly, sir, but there's been a confounded mermaid here > plagui= > n' > > me. Then the men all laughed, as if they thought it a good joke, but I > kn= > ew > > it was airnest. But what's the use tryin' to teach poor ignorant > *critter= > s* > > what wont believe what a man tells them he has seen with his own eyes?" > > > No. 6 (December). A Day in the Woods. Or English and American Game. By > Fran= > k > Forester. p. 294 > > > "Yes, that is it, certainly--and those *are *hares and pheasants--and > > that's a right smart Jersey trotter, I some guess--a *critter* that can > > travel like a strick--and the boy holding him--that's a Long Island > nigge= > r, > > now I calkilate, --oh, ya--as! and that's a Yorker on a gunnin' scrape, > > stringin' them pheasants! ya--as;" and he spoke with so absurd an > imitati= > on > > and exaggeration of the Yankee twang and drawl, that he set Heneage > > laughing, though he was still more than half indignant. > > > > It's possible that someone divined that "critter" was a slur from various > uses such as the ones in Uncle Tom, or a comment by a Sheridan scout (from > his memoirs) concerning" Injuns and other critters". But, really, just > substituting "creature" for "critter" makes it look less like a slur and > just a term of general indifference. It applies in random measure to all > sorts of animals--same as it does today, but without the additional > connotation of smallness and cuteness, perhaps--to mermaids, to people of > pretty much any creed. There is some derogatory sense in it, but that's not > racial--just a general sense of contempt--and even that only on occasion. > I= > t > certainly does not appear to have been /intended/ as a slur in the mid- to > late 19th century (and entirely US). > > BTW, any attempt at antedating (OED--1815) failed in GB--all pre-1815 tags > and many of 1816-1833 turned out to be spurious, some obviously so > (including the Sheridan memoirs published in 1885 but tagged as 1825). > > VS-) > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > Worth more than a little, I think. Googling one edition shows 4 > > instances of "critter". From an 1852 edition, vol. 2, GBooks full view. > > > > Topsy speaking of herself: "I spects I's the wickedest critter in > > the world." [Surely this must have made the YBQ! Or at least a > > stage version.] Page 50. > > > > A master speaking of a slave: "Well, here's a pious dog ... Powerful > > holy critter, he must be!" Page 197. > > > > Tom speaking of his master: "Ye poor miserable critter! ... there > > an't no more ye can do! I forgive ye, with all my soul!" Page 274. > > > > Tom talking to George (another slave?) about (I believe) a master: > > "O, don't---oh, ye mustn't! ... he's a poor mis'able critter! ... O, > > if he only could repent, the Lord would forgive him now ..." Page 281. > > > > Use by both masters and slaves is interesting. And I wonder if the > > master's use can really be considered racial. > > > > Joel > > > > At 8/27/2011 12:33 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: > > >FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is > us= > ed > > >extensively there as one of the milder references by the white > character= > s > > to > > >the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. > > > > > >Andrea > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 20:04:14 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:04:14 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108271630.p7RB1rvx016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:30 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a > single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] > I'm not sure what you mean. IAC, _What's this software? …?_ was written in a post to a software site. _What's he gonna pay? …?_ I heard. I'd have expected, "What's he gonna _do_? _Pay_ two men to do the same job?" In the former case, I'd have expected "What's this software_'s age_? Like 9 years old?" Or something like that. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 20:24:07 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:24:07 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108271915.p7RAu7jI007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > Green’s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite > for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating > could probably be improved on by a systematic search. Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 books.google.com Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... http://books.google.com/books?id=1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=tomming#v=snippet& Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or later. The Negro in America books.google.com Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by suspecting them of being ... http://books.google.com/books?id=vTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=Tomming#search_anchor Worldcat has an entry that says: The Negro in America Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] But another edition was published in 1964: 1. The Negro in America. With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > > According to the late-great: > > "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may > _tom out_ on yo' ass." > -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't > Crap! (Laff Records) > > I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. > > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 27 20:28:07 2011 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:28:07 -0700 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <201108270312.p7QJWNQB002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My kids - in their teens - don't get it when they ask what time it is and I answer "quarter to..." Their preference for the digital clock is so strong that they have no visual reference for it. On the other hand, they were preparing to go somewhere with a friend their age, and the friend said, "Hey, we better get going. It's almost fifty." Took me a moment to figure out that she meant 00:50, which the adults in the family would have called "ten of..." or "ten to..." On Aug 26, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter- > clockwise) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > No mention of the opposite of withershins/widdershins in any of the > below, viz. "deasil" (= 'with the apparent direction of the sun', > i.e. clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere). Note that "widdershins" > and "deasil" are respectively clockwise and counter-clockwise in the > Southern Hemisphere, assuming that one's analog clocks go in the > same direction there as they do here. In another generation, nobody > will know what counter- (or anti-)clockwise refers to. > > LH > > On Aug 26, 2011, at 2:42 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> The "amateur" is Keith Humphries of RBC blog: >> >> http://goo.gl/99OoC >> >>> Listening just now to a radio report of the counter-clockwise >>> spinning >>> Irene hurricane called to mind a night some years ago when I was >>> lost in the >>> Surrey darkness, trying to find the house of an English friend. My >>> friend >>> called me and said that I had made a mistake by turning left at >>> the ring >>> road, where I should have instead traveled “anti-clockwise”. >>> I was surprised at the term, which I had never heard before. Its >>> meaning is >>> transparent on its face, but what threw me off was that my friend >>> didn’t use >>> my mother’s word “widdershins”, which I knew came from her UK >>> ancestors. To >>> them, widdershins meant particularly walking around a church with >>> the wall >>> always to one’s left rather than right, which could bring the >>> devil’s curse >>> of bad luck. >> >> >> >> Compare OED: >> >> withershins | widdershins, adv. >>> Forms: 15– widder-, 16– wither-, (15 widdir-, weddir-, wod(d)er-, >>> 15, 18 >>> wooder-); 15–18 -sins, 15– -shins, (15 -syns, -shynes, -shynnis, - >>> son(n)is, >>> 15, 18 -sinnis, -sones, 16 -shines, 18 -schynnes).... (Show More) >>> Etymology: < Middle Low German weddersin(ne)s (compare wedersins >>> ‘contrario modo’, Kilian), < Middle High German widersinnes, < >>> wider-wither- >>> prefix + genitive of sin (especially Middle German) = sind, sint >>> way, >>> direction (see sithe n.1): compare Middle High German widersinnen >>> to return. >>> In sense 2 associated with son, sun n.1... (Show Less) >>> dial. (chiefly Sc.). >>> †1. In a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way; to stand >>> or start >>> withershins , (of the hair) to ‘stand on end’. Obs. >>> 2. In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun >>> (considered >>> as unlucky or causing disaster). >>> >> >> >> withershin(s) | widdershin(s), adj. >>> Etymology: < withershins adv. >>> Moving in an anticlockwise direction, contrary to the apparent >>> course of >>> the sun (considered as unlucky or sinister); unlucky, ill-fated, >>> relating to >>> the occult. >> >> >> >> Note "anti-clockwise" both in the adj. lemma and in the blog post. >> Anti-clockwise has examples from 1898 to 1927, but that's still not >> as >> out-of-date as counter-clockwise, which only has two--1888 and 1890. >> >> GB search for {anticloskwise | "anti-clockwise"} <1898 returns 272 >> raw >> ghits, 52 raw for <1888, 12 actual, including three spuriously >> tagged and 9 >> math texts. >> >> http://goo.gl/kzjBv >> Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Volume 29. June 19, 1879 >> On the Secular Effects of Tidal Friction. By G. H. Darwin. pp. 176-7 >> >>> i. Then in fig. 1, for all points of the line of momentum from C >>> through E >>> to infinity, /x/ is negative and /y/ is positive; therefore this >>> indicates >>> an anti-clockwise revolution of the satellite, and a clockwise >>> rotation of >>> the planet, but the m. of m. planetary rotation is greater than >>> that of the >>> orbital motion. >>> ... >>> ii. For all points of the line of momentum from D through F to >>> infinity, >>> /x/ is positive and /y/ is negative; therefore the motion of the >>> satellite >>> is clockwise, and that of the planetary rotation anti-clockwise, >>> but the m. >>> of m. of the orbital motion is greater than that of the planetary >>> rotation. >> >> >> >> One of the other hits (1939) is a dictionary that lists >> sinister==climbing >> anti-clockwise. >> >> Similar search for counterclockwise yields 331 raw ghits <1888, 9 >> <1877, >> including 7 spuriously tagged. The remaining 2 are from the same >> year. >> >> >> http://goo.gl/rLwaK >> Principles of Mechanism. 2nd ed. By Robert Willis. London: 1870 >> p. 158 >> >>> Consequently if the screw be left handed, it must be turned counter >>> clockwise to enter a fixed nut, or put a movable nut in action >>> upon the >>> extremity of its screw. >> >> p. 233 >> >>> Thus a series of points is obtained through which the curves can >>> be drawn >>> as in Fig. 228 and theoretically they satisfy the condition of >>> equalising >>> the velocity of the reciprocating piece. If the lower curve, which >>> is the >>> driver, be rotated counter-clockwise its increasing radii will >>> enable it >>> to press against the decreasing radii of the follower until the >>> concave >>> salient point which terminates the long diameter of the driver is >>> brought >>> into contact with /b/. >> >> p. 428 >> >>> We have already seen that the arrangement of the cord /DW/ >>> prevents the >>> cylinder from revolving counter-clockwise, and leaves it free to >>> be turned >>> the reverse way, while on the other hand the motion given by >>> raising and >>> lowering the knob *G *grasps the cylinder and communicates >>> rotation to it. >>> As this rotation is in the direction of the clock, when the knob >>> is raised >>> the cord *BW *serves merely to steady the motion. >> >> >> >> http://goo.gl/jvJPb >> Geometric Optics. By Osmund Airy. London: 1870 >> p. 18 >> >>> For convenience the algebraic sign of the moment is said to be / >>> positive/ >>> when the moment tends to turn the body in a direction /counter- >>> clockwise/, >>> and /negative/ when it tends to turn the body in the /clockwise/ >>> direction. >> >> pp. 51-2 >> >>> 30. ... If the couple tends to produce rotation in the clockwise >>> direction, the moment is said to be negative; and if >>> counterclockwise, >>> positive. >>> 31. Representation of Couples. -- The couple involves magnitude >>> (moment) >>> and direction (rotation), and may, therefore, be represented by an >>> arrow, >>> the length of the line being proportional to the moment of the >>> couple, and >>> the arrow indicating the direction of rotation. In order to make >>> the matter >>> of direction of rotation clear, the agreement is made that the >>> arrow be >>> drawn perpendicular to the plane of the couple on that side from >>> which the >>> rotation appears counter-clockwise. >>> 32. ... The moment arrow of the resultant couple will be >>> perpendicular to >>> the cover of the book and on the side from which the rotation >>> appears >>> counter-clockwise. ... >> >> p. 169 >> >>> Angular velocity involves a magnitude and a direction, and may, >>> therefore, >>> be represented by an arrow (see Fig. 119), the length of the arrow >>> representing the magnitude and drawn perpendicular to the plane of >>> motion >>> such that if you look along the arrow, from its point, the motion >>> appears >>> positive or negative; positive if counter-clockwise and negative if >>> clockwise. >> >> >> >> Both conventions (left-handed screw==counter-clockwise; positive >> direction >> of rotation==counter-clockwise) are fairly standard today, so it's >> interesting to find both in the same year, but it is doubtful >> either one is >> original. In fact, I am absolutely shocked that there is nothing >> in GB >> earlier than 1870 for either term. No point post-dating either one, >> as they >> are quite common (well, one more than the other). In any case, both >> need >> updated quotations on both ends. >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 20:39:50 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:39:50 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <4C11E753-41F5-45B3-AE6C-9D3FB87869DE@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional Republicans." The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish army invades Persia". Joel At 8/27/2011 01:46 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >first "substitute", now "blame": > >http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/reversed-blame/ > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 21:06:22 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:06:22 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <3D6BFDD3-BD3A-4936-86AD-B0635E0DA71F@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 8/27/2011 04:28 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock wrote: >My kids - in their teens - don't get it when they ask what time it is >and I answer "quarter to..." Their preference for the digital clock >is so strong that they have no visual reference for it. Have they never been inside -- or for that matter at the south, 42nd Street, outside of -- Grand Central Terminal? Or boarded a train at King's Cross station? Or seen "North by Northwest"? They must have seen "Superman". Or passed the corner of Massachusetts and Park Avenues in Arlington Heights, Massachusetts, where the four-faced analog clock is once again showing the correct time? http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9595676 Joel >On the other hand, they were preparing to go somewhere with a friend >their age, and the friend said, "Hey, we better get going. It's almost >fifty." Took me a moment to figure out that she meant 00:50, which the >adults in the family would have called "ten of..." or "ten to..." I would have taken longer than a moment. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 21:26:36 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:26:36 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 11:22 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > Not in my 60+ years living in the South! I have heard the word used--well, all right, insensitively--for burn vicitms (usually dead): "crispy critters." > > —Charlie > Tim O'Brien's semi-memoiristic novel _The Things They Carried_, set during the Vietnam War in the late 1960s, portrays the use of "crispy critter" (either cynically or as a distancing device) by U.S. soldiers to refer to those burned to death during the conflict. Maybe especially by napalm, I can't recall. LH > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Arnold Zwicky [zwicky at STANFORD.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 10:50 AM > > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 27 21:33:06 2011 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:33:06 -0700 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <201108272106.p7RAu7q4007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: They've seen NXNW (although I'm trying to remember a scene with a clock?) and they can use an analog clock, but, it just isn't automatic for them the way it is for us older folks. They don't wear watches because they have cell phones. The only clock in our house that is analog is the one in the kitchen, where there is a digital clock on the stove as well. Funny, isn't it? Kate Svoboda-Spanbock On Aug 27, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter- > clockwise) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/27/2011 04:28 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock wrote: >> My kids - in their teens - don't get it when they ask what time it is >> and I answer "quarter to..." Their preference for the digital clock >> is so strong that they have no visual reference for it. > > Have they never been inside -- or for that matter at the south, 42nd > Street, outside of -- Grand Central Terminal? Or boarded a train at > King's Cross station? Or seen "North by Northwest"? They must have > seen "Superman". Or passed the corner of Massachusetts and Park > Avenues in Arlington Heights, Massachusetts, where the four-faced > analog clock is once again showing the correct time? > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9595676 > > Joel > > >> On the other hand, they were preparing to go somewhere with a friend >> their age, and the friend said, "Hey, we better get going. It's >> almost >> fifty." Took me a moment to figure out that she meant 00:50, which >> the >> adults in the family would have called "ten of..." or "ten to..." > > I would have taken longer than a moment. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 21:40:57 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:40:57 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 12:30 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a > single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> >> Reminiscent of questions like >> >> "What's he gonna pay? Two men to do the same job?" >> >> -- >> -Wilson > Relatable, as it were, to (at least in New Yorkese): "Who do you think you are? ANYway?" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 22:27:05 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:27:05 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The OED has Uncle Tomming with a first citation in 1947. Uncle Toming n. (also Uncle Tomming) 1947 S. Lewis Kingsblood Royal x. 52 Why, you gold-digging, uncle-tomming, old, black he-courtesan! Here is a relevant cite in 1933: Cite: 1933 March 18, The Pittsburgh Courier, Views and Reviews by George S. Schuyler, Page 10, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (ProQuest) Negroes responsible for the ballyhoo about conditions being so good down South that Negroes who escaped should return there, are merely Uncle Tomming in the hope that it will please the white folks. There are many earlier instances of "Uncle Tomming" with multiple overlapping senses. An "Uncle Tomming" troupe is a theatrical group that performs "Uncle Tom's Cabin". "Uncle Tomming" also refers to performing as part of such a troupe. Garson On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: >> Green’s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite >> for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating >> could probably be improved on by a systematic search. > > Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are > unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, > but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term > "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or > later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) > > An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 > books.google.com > Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview > But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can > afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their > "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them > "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... > > http://books.google.com/books?id=1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=tomming#v=snippet& > > > Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The > first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but > there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle > Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or > later. > > The Negro in America > books.google.com > Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view > And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them > for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling > them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by > suspecting them of being ... > > http://books.google.com/books?id=vTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=Tomming#search_anchor > > Worldcat has an entry that says: > The Negro in America > Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal > Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] > > But another edition was published in 1964: > 1. The Negro in America. > With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. > Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > >> >> According to the late-great: >> >> "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may >> _tom out_ on yo' ass." >> -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't >> Crap! (Laff Records) >> >> I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. >> >> >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:11:59 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:11:59 -0700 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <201108272040.p7RB9hX4004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama > blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames > Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed > "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional > Republicans." yes, yes, that's the point for the posting to come -- on the intended structure, with high attachment. but the sentence as written invites (the preposterous) low attachment, yielding a potential ambiguity that involves the argument structure of "blame". so i used that to lead into a discussion of the various argument structures for "blame". the original sentence was just an entry point into the larger discussion. > The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems > analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an > adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish > army invades Persia". i was simply assuming this in my posting, treating the "Congress Republicans" variant as irrelevant to the point i was talking about. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:18:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:18:13 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271741.p7RAu7dW007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially > apparent: _"These critters an't like white folks …."_, but I have the > impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. Even if it could be shown that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the cited instance was meant as a racist slur against the innocent colored, how could that possibly be in the way of demonstrating that, as used TODAY, the word _critter_ is a "racist" slur? Well, if _moist_ can be made into an obscenity merely as the consequence of The Man's deciding that it is, what can prevent _critter_ from in like manner being made into a "racist" slur, e.g. "a derogatory term used in the United States by Americans of European ancestry in spite or in contempt of the American Negro." To paraphrase Pryor, "Is that 'lexicographic' enough for your ass?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:24:37 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:24:37 -0400 Subject: Crash blossom of the week (thanks to Michael Quinion) Message-ID: WORLD WIDE WORDS ISSUE 751 Saturday 27 August 2011 A headline from the Expatica Netherlands RSS feed on 20 August, Alan Buck reports, was "Pope reaches out to abuse victims amid protests" [Nice to see there's some opposition, anyway!] LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:26:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:02 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially >> apparent: _"These critters an't like white folks …."_, but I have the >> impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. > > Even if it could be shown that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the cited > instance was meant as a racist slur against the innocent colored, how > could that possibly be in the way of demonstrating that, as used > TODAY, the word _critter_ is a "racist" slur? > > Well, if _moist_ can be made into an obscenity merely as the > consequence of The Man's deciding that it is I thought the complaints came from The Woman, or some of them. > , what can prevent > _critter_ from in like manner being made into a "racist" slur, e.g. "a > derogatory term used in the United States by Americans of European > ancestry in spite or in contempt of the American Negro." > > To paraphrase Pryor, "Is that 'lexicographic' enough for your ass?" > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:27:09 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:27:09 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108272005.p7RB9hVs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: To me, the equivalent expression that I find to be quite common is "This software is, what, 9 years old?" In this case, it's obvious that the question is something like "This software is 9 years old--is that right?" and "what" is completely superficial, other than suggesting the "is that right?" part. But it does not carry the actual meaning--that we are suppose to divine from the entire structure. It's practically a question by assumption--which is what I tried to convey by +[qualifier]. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:30 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a > > single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] > > > > I'm not sure what you mean. > > IAC, _What's this software? …?_ was written in a post to a software > site. _What's he gonna pay? …?_ I heard. > > I'd have expected, "What's he gonna _do_? _Pay_ two men to do the same > job?" > > In the former case, I'd have expected "What's this software_'s age_? > Like 9 years old?" > > Or something like that. > -- > -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:28:52 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:28:52 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <201108272040.p7RAu7oa007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Turkey army invades Persia on a holiday. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama > blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames > Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed > "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional > Republicans." The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems > analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an > adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish > army invades Persia". > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:31:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:31:03 -0400 Subject: Hurricanes In-Reply-To: <201108271441.p7RB9hP2004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I was fully expecting you to reminisce about the hurricane of '38, Wilson. The so-called "hurricane" had not yet brought itself to anyone's attention, back in the elder time, Joel. ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:35:42 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:35:42 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271910.p7RB9hUs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we refer to something as "neologism"? VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an > example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca > blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan > Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that > can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about > three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like > it. > > It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to > antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is > not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have > checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she > happens to dislike. > > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:38:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:38:02 -0400 Subject: An 1838 sighting of the "brass monkey" expression In-Reply-To: <201108271425.p7RB9hOs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Funny, just a week ago I asked a friend how old the expression "cool as a cucumber" might be. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Bonnie Taylor-Blake < b.taylorblake at gmail.com> wrote: > > The OED cites Melville's 1847 use of "It was 'ot enough to melt the > nose h'off a brass monkey" as a very early instance of the use of this > "brass monkey" expression. > > For what it's worth, here's one from 1838: > > Old Knites was as cool as a cucumber, and would have been so > independent of the weather, which was cold enough to freeze the nose > off of a brass monkey. > > (From "Stray Leaves from a Straggler's Note Book: A Heroic Woman and > a Womanish Hero," *The Morning Herald* [New York, New York], 30 May > 1838, p. 2.) > > -- Bonnie > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:42:38 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:42:38 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 7:35 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a > "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we > refer to something as "neologism"? > > VS-) Don't know, but I like the idea of one passing into the status of "paleologism". LH > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> >> I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an >> example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca >> blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan >> Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that >> can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about >> three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like >> it. >> >> It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to >> antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is >> not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have >> checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she >> happens to dislike. >> >> >> http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:43:06 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:43:06 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272326.p7RB9haE004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A glance at HDAS suggests just how common "crispy critter" was among Vietnam War writers. IIRC, the cereal appeared around 1964. JL On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "critter" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 27, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson > wrote: > >> There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially > >> apparent: _"These critters an't like white folks …."_, but I have the > >> impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. > > > > Even if it could be shown that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the cited > > instance was meant as a racist slur against the innocent colored, how > > could that possibly be in the way of demonstrating that, as used > > TODAY, the word _critter_ is a "racist" slur? > > > > Well, if _moist_ can be made into an obscenity merely as the > > consequence of The Man's deciding that it is > > I thought the complaints came from The Woman, or some of them. > > > , what can prevent > > _critter_ from in like manner being made into a "racist" slur, e.g. "a > > derogatory term used in the United States by Americans of European > > ancestry in spite or in contempt of the American Negro." > > > > To paraphrase Pryor, "Is that 'lexicographic' enough for your ass?" > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:47:25 2011 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:47:25 -0500 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271939.p7RAu7km007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In regard to the usage of H. B. Stowe, readers of pulp westerns of a few > generations ago will recall the frequent use of "critter" as a vaguely > dismissive term for any human being. > One might also point to the more recent popularity of the word "congresscritter". Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:49:57 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:49:57 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272343.p7RB9hb4004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But surely that was a joke on "fried" insects rather than any kind of ethnic slur... No? A deep-fried soft-shell crab is a "crispy critter". Electric bug lamps create "crispy critters"--although these were invented a bit later. Moths caught in light fixtures are "crispy critters", etc. Given that deep-fried and grilled insects and other "critters" are not uncommon in Southeast Asia, this sounds fairly typical of what one would expect from war humor. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > A glance at HDAS suggests just how common "crispy critter" was among > Vietnam > War writers. > > IIRC, the cereal appeared around 1964. > > JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 28 00:05:03 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:05:03 -0700 Subject: "critters" Message-ID: to add to the mix: lots of sites on "creepy critters" (reptiles, ambhibians, slugs, leeches, insects, spiders, scorpions, etc.), specifically directed at kids, who are fascinated with these creatures. educational and fun. (my grand-daughter loves this stuff.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 00:06:13 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:06:13 -0400 Subject: Dick, Tom and Harry Message-ID: Under Cheney 2. 2. In some passages it is associated with Philip and Cheny (also Philip, > Hob, and Cheny): a phrase found from 16th c. in the sense of ‘Dick, Tom, and > Harry’; see Philip n. Under Philip n. Phrases: 1. Philip and Cheyney (also Philip, Hob, and Cheyney): see Philip and > Cheyney n., Philip, Hob, and Cheyney n. For Philip and Cheney: 1. Ordinary people, taken at random; = Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry at Tom > n.1 1a. > 2. A kind of worsted or woollen cloth of ordinary quality. Cf. cheyney n. Finally, for Philip, Hob and Cheney: = Philip and Cheyney n. Cf. Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry at Tom n.1 1a. Does that mean that there is an entry for "Tom, Dick, and Harry"? No! 1. a. A familiar shortening of the Christian name Thomas; often a generic > name for any male representative of the common people; esp. in Tom and Tib > (cf. Jack and Gill at gill n.4 2a); Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry , any men > taken at random from the common run; Blind Tom, blind-man's-buff. [That's the same Tom n.1 that has Uncle Tom under 1.f.] Dick n.1. 1.a. also redirects to Tom n.1 1.a.: 1. a. A familiar pet-form of the common Christian name Richard. Hence > generically (like Jack) = fellow, lad, man, especially with alliterating > adjectives, as desperate, dainty, dapper, dirty. Tom, Dick and Harry: any > three (or more) representatives of the populace taken at random; see also > Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry at Tom n.1 1a; clever Dick: a clever or smart > person; usu. ironical: a ‘know-all’; also attrib. Why not just have a separate Tom, Dick and Harry entry and a Dick, Tom and Harry one with redirect to Tom, Dick and Harry? A "familiar shortening of Thomas" and a "familiar pet-form of Richard" simply don't explain what "every Tom, Dick and Harry" means. And it's not merely "any men taken at random", but rather "ordinary people", "anyone". It's not about being random, but rather about being ubiquitous. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 00:24:45 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:24:45 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272343.p7RB9hb4004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A quick Wiki look: Crispy Critters was a breakfast cereal, which was re-issued by Post Cereals > in 1987 after having been tested unsuccessfully during the 1960s. This > second attempt to popularize this cereal was also unsuccessful and it was > discontinued shortly thereafter. > The cereal consisted of individual pieces that were akin to miniature > animal crackers in their shape, appearance, taste and texture. OK, neither 1964 nor 1987 sounds like a good year to try out the cereal, given the alternative context. This is worse than the apocryphal "Nova". 1960s commercial is here: http://goo.gl/FA9KP 1987 here: http://goo.gl/PNQud and http://goo.gl/IEvXY (boy and girl versions) Then, there is this: http://www.crispycritterslasvegas.com/ > Crispy Critters is a pest control and termite inspection company in Las > Vegas, NV. We are proud to offer the most trustworthy and professional > service in Las Vegas. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > A glance at HDAS suggests just how common "crispy critter" was among > Vietnam > War writers. > > *IIRC, the cereal appeared around 1964.* > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 00:43:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:43:53 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108272327.p7RB1rAB016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:27 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > "This software is, what, 9 years old?" It's obvious. Once that it has been pointed out.;-) I prefer 'This software is, what? Like, 9 years old?" But that's merely difference in taste, not a difference in substance. My congratulations on your perspicacity! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 01:07:24 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:07:24 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108272335.p7RAu7vm007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:35 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a > "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we > refer to something as "neologism"? > Most likely, it depends upon the person. After all, "Self is the measure of all things," as the saying goes. If it's a neologism to *me*, then, clearly, it's a neologism. Q.E.D. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 01:10:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:10:25 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272326.p7RB9haE004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I thought the complaints came from The Woman, or some of them. Oh, please! The Woman can't do *anything*, unless The Man says that she can.;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 28 02:25:13 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 22:25:13 -0400 Subject: "critters" In-Reply-To: <36C47409-8E71-41D3-A1B4-1789FD25921E@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > to add to the mix: lots of sites on "creepy critters" (reptiles, ambhibians, slugs, leeches, insects, spiders, scorpions, etc.), specifically directed at kids, who are fascinated with these creatures. educational and fun. > > (my grand-daughter loves this stuff.) > > arnold > > —————————————————————————————— Am I misrembering, or wasn't there a gummy snack that came in boxes called "creepy critters" that was popular oh (calculating kids' ages) around 1990 or shortly thereafter? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 28 02:59:49 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 22:59:49 -0400 Subject: Crash blossom of the week (thanks to Michael Quinion) In-Reply-To: <253CCD76-CDF1-4B76-88EF-551EE03DCB7D@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/27/2011 07:24 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >WORLD WIDE WORDS ISSUE 751 Saturday 27 August 2011 > >A headline from the Expatica Netherlands RSS feed on 20 August, Alan >Buck reports, was > >"Pope reaches out to abuse victims amid protests" > >[Nice to see there's some opposition, anyway!] I'm tempted to say, beware out for the priestly hand reaching out to the abused. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Aug 28 03:07:34 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 22:07:34 -0500 Subject: "critter" Message-ID: Yeah, war humor=galgenhumor. I can't imagine any of us having been interested in fried or grilled bugs, so, while the referrants were black, it was charring, not melanin we were joking about. ----- Original Message ----- From: "victor steinbok" But surely that was a joke on "fried" insects rather than any kind of ethnic slur... No? A deep-fried soft-shell crab is a "crispy critter". Electric bug lamps create "crispy critters"--although these were invented a bit later. Moths caught in light fixtures are "crispy critters", etc. Given that deep-fried and grilled insects and other "critters" are not uncommon in Southeast Asia, this sounds fairly typical of what one would expect from war humor. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 28 03:19:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:19:51 -0400 Subject: auteur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <9559B796-9FF9-44CE-930D-3265A88E079E@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 8/27/2011 05:33 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock wrote: >They've seen NXNW (although I'm trying to remember a scene with a >clock?) I don't remember precisely if the clock is shown. After Thornhill flees from the UN building, he attempts to buy a ticket for the 20th Century Limited. The ticket seller stalls him, he becomes suspicious, and he walks off while the ticker seller is phoning the police. Given that the scene must have taken place on the main concourse (IIR the terminal C), I have to believe Hitchcock would have introduced it by showing the iconic clock. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 28 03:23:14 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:23:14 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, perhaps my only request is, use a better example (that is, one that would confuse me more)! :-) Joel At 8/27/2011 07:11 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Aug 27, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama > > blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames > > Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed > > "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional > > Republicans." > >yes, yes, that's the point for the posting to come -- on the >intended structure, with high attachment. but the sentence as >written invites (the preposterous) low attachment, yielding a >potential ambiguity that involves the argument structure of "blame". > >so i used that to lead into a discussion of the various argument >structures for "blame". the original sentence was just an entry >point into the larger discussion. > > > The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems > > analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an > > adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish > > army invades Persia". > >i was simply assuming this in my posting, treating the "Congress >Republicans" variant as irrelevant to the point i was talking about. > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 06:35:36 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:35:36 -0400 Subject: transfer--quick observation Message-ID: I was checking "transfer" in OED because I spotted a 1908 football use--one that's still quite common in non-American references to moves or exchanges of players between teams--but it's not antedating the current OED entry (1895). But I notices something else. 2. d. The transference of a worker or player from one location, sphere, > sports club, etc., to another; a change of place of employment within an > organization. 1895 Football News (Nottingham) 2 Nov. 1/6 It is stated that the Forest > have offered £70 for Bruce's transfer. > 1923 J. D. Hackett Labor Terms in Managem. Engin. May, Transfer, the > shifting of a worker from one occupation to another. These two are not quite equivalent and I'm wondering if their origins are related (aside from the fact that both refer to removal of personnel from one location and placing in another, with a common verbal ancestor). For one, in US use these are "translated" differently--the former is a trade, the latter--a reassignment, even within the narrow sports context. Even a baseball "transfer" between the major league club and one of its farm teams or between farm teams is termed "reassignment" (with occasional "transfer" also heard). When an organization--such as a school district--investigates the conduct of one of its employees and does not wish to let the employee to remain in the same position, they "reassign" the employee to a different position--or the employee accepts "reassignment". Still, occasionally, there may be an interdepartmental "transfer"--although "transfer" usually refers to money, not people (see transfer n. 4.a.). But any exchange from one team to another--either for another player or for cash or for "considerations"--is a "trade". Interestingly, in global football (outside Major League Soccer) all transfers are made for cash--i.e., a player goes to a new team and the old team gets cash compensation. Even when the original contract has expired, a move to a new team is still often referred to as "free transfer" (meaning that the new team has no cash obligations to the old team). Because it is the league that formally makes all transfers between the MLS and foreign teams, the MLS clubs are insulated from transfers--but, internally, within the MLS, they make trades, not transfers. In short, I'm wondering if these two uses should be split up. On a less interesting note, there are two meanings of "transfer" that are not covered in the OED. When purchasing a "vacation" or some other package, the terms of the package usually specify whether "airport transfers" are or are not included. If they are included, that usually implies that the passenger is given not only airline tickets, but also a voucher to be presented to a transfer agency (bus, taxi, train, etc.). In common understanding, it is this voucher or the charges that this voucher carries (that would have to be paid separately) that is referred to as "transfer", not the physical conveyance that it covers. The second usage is purely US. In fact, it was one of the first US-specific English words that I might have learned. I am referring to bus transfers in systems where one can obtain a paper ticket or voucher that allows a passenger to board another bus or train for no charge or a discount rate within a specified time period. These paper tickets are on the way out as systems go with electronic ticketing, but they used to be quite common, e.g., in Chicago and NYC. But the "transfer" was the piece of paper--ticket or voucher--that permitted the conveyance from one route to another. I found no equivalent for either of these two "transfers" in the OED. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 08:14:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 04:14:38 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108272227.p7RAu7tO007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [Uncle Tom, n. 1922 --> 1920 --> 1909? --> 1908?] Tom/Tomming and Uncle Tom/Uncle Tomming should be tracked separately, although, of course, it's not an easy task. Note, in particular, OED tom v. Etymology: < Tom n.1 > 1. trans. To address familiarly as ‘Tom’. nonce-use. > 1900 S. J. Weyman Sophia xxiv, ‘You may Tom me, you don't alter it’, > he answered. > 2. intr. [ < Tom n.1 1f] To behave in an ingratiating and servile way to > someone of another (esp. white) race. Also to tom it (up) . U.S. slang. > 1963 L. Bennett in W. King Black Short Story Anthol. (1972) 161 They > say you are going to chicken out, Papa.‥ They're betting you'll ‘Tom’. > 1972 M. J. Bosse Incident at Naha ii. 94 Virgil just smiled, Tomming > it up. > 1976 Public Opinion Q. XXXIX. 527 The respondent ‘accommodates’, or to > use the colloquial term, ‘toms’, in order to get through the racial > interaction with minimal tension. > 3. intr. To practise prostitution, to behave promiscuously; also, to have > sexual intercourse in such a context. Also to tom (it) around . slang. > 1964 Z. Progl Woman of Underworld iii. 35 They were perfectly willing > to go ‘tomming’ on the streets to earn a few quid, but I never could. > 1968 ‘J. Ross’ Diminished by Death i. 14 She's just tomming around. > 1973 J. Rossiter Manipulators ix. 102 This woman.‥ Is she tomming it > around with the local villains? > 1981 A. Sewart Close your Eyes & Sleep xviii. 181 What was she doing? > Tomming, to put it bluntly. She was having it off with a bloke. > > Derivatives > > ˈtomming n. > 1968 J. Lock Lady Policeman ii. 12 A prostitute was a ‘tom’‥and to > practise prostitution was ‘tomming’. > 1973 Black World May 44 Afrikan People all over the world Conscious, > unconscious, struggling, sleeping, Resisting, tomming, killing the enemy. > 1981 ‘J. Ross’ Dark Blue & Dangerous ix. 55 His own tomming around had > given him a charitable view of casual sex. Note that tom n.1 1f does reference "Uncle Tom", so the verb is linked to its origin, even though the overarching etymology note omits that little detail (v. 1. is of a different cloth and is irrelevant to the rest of the post). Now, for my money, v. 3. and the derivative "noun" tomming are both derived from v. 2 and not some hypothetical "Tom" that parallels the hypothetical "John". The timing certainly fits. Now, 1922 sounds awfully late for early "Uncle Tom" references, even for noun. Here's one earlier, but it doesn't seem quite right: http://goo.gl/bHE6M Current Literature. Volume 45 (6). December 1908 Mr. Stringer's Arraignment of the "Canada Fakers". p. 644/2 > Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound being used in this man-hunt; > and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer asserts, "in the country of > which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are not found there, and it would > be as foolish to import them as it would be to bring in an army of Uncle Toms > to gather cotton from the Moose River bottoms." Then Mr. White represents > the Ojibways and the Chippewas as engaged in deadly strife, which is just as > reasonable, Mr. Stringer opines, as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks and > Canadians, of New Yorkers and Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas are > one people. Note that this is not quite the same slur, but rather a juxtaposition between "Uncle Toms" and "gather[ing] cotton" from Moose River bottoms that Mr. Stringer (the critic) finds incongruous. The issue here is inability to grow cotton at a Canadian location and "Uncle Toms" are thrown in for color (no pun intended). I thought a more extended passage might set the context: "We see the same tendency to dish up a goulash of dilettante details spiced > with sentiment when Sir Gilbert turns historical and has General Wolfe 'eye' > his men in the boats at the turn of the tide in the St. Lawrence (on the > night preceding Quebec's fall) when that night has already been described as > pitch dark, and when it is plain that these men were so many, many hundred > feet away." > Mr. Stringer confesses that he approaches the blunders of Stewart Edward White > with a feeling akin to trepidation, not, he explains, because Mr. White is > the master of a forceful and fluent style, but because "so august a > personage as the Washington enemy of the nature faker himself has placed on > Mr. White the seal of his complete approval." Yet blunders there are, and > not a few. The very plot of "The Silent Places" is, in Mr. Stringer's > judgment, based upon a fallacy. This story describes the prolonged and > relentless pursuit of a defalcating Indian by two hired agents of the > Hudson's Bay Company; but "it is not and never was the custom of the > company," says Mr. Stringer, "to expend good money for the active pursuit of > delinquents." The mere "posting," or black-listing, of any defalcator at the > different trading places of the company has been all that was necessary to > bring him to book as a rule. Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound > being used in this man-hunt; and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer > asserts, "in the country of which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are > not found there, and it would be as foolish to import them as it would be to > bring in an army of Uncle Toms to gather cotton from the Moose River > bottoms." Then Mr. White represents the Ojibways and the Chippewas as > engaged in deadly strife, which is just as reasonable, Mr. Stringer opines, > as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks and Canadians, of New Yorkers and > Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas are one people. > The same sort of blunders are discerned in Stewart Edward White's > "Conjurer's House," and are all attributed by Mr. Stringer to "the passion > to make the trails of the north either always picturesque or always tragic." There is a bunch of nice points here, starting with "dish[ing] up goulash of dilettante details"; "black-listing" as posting notices of "defalcators" (embezzlers?)--no OED listing suggests that anyone on the black-list ought to be caught but merely rendered unemployable; "Gothamites" matched up with "New Yorkers"--making of a nice post-dating citation; and the mention of "Canucks" that the OED, for some reason, finds "In U.S. usage, gen. derogatory" (clearly not even remotely the connotation here). All of these under one very tidy roof. However, the main one for citing it here--Uncle Toms--appears to fail. It is obvious that the reference here is to blacks, but there is no hint of the additional connotation of being subservient or servile. The only reason that this reference is there is to point to the absurdity of blacks picking cotton at "Moose River bottoms"--it's not clear where the conflict lies, but it is surely not in their being excessively subservient. The opposite is true of another 1908 Uncle Tom reference. This one is in Punch, but it identifies a proper name--fictitious, but referring to a specific person, just like its antecedent. But IMO the usage of this name is exactly matching the derogatory general use. I only submit the link because the entire text should be considered in this analysis: http://goo.gl/Byd49 The particularly odd thing about this is that it's English, not US, but its origin appears to be in minstrel show versions of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Does this one deserve at least a bracketed treatment in the OED? The best certain antedating I can get right now is 1920. http://goo.gl/PG3Rp The Herald and Presbyter. A Presbyterian Family Paper. Volume 91(32). Cincinnati, OH: August 11, 1920 New York Letter. By Rev. Clarence C. Reynolds. p. 6/3 > "... The Uncle Tom Negro has got to go, and his place must be taken by the > new leader of the Negro race. That man will not be a white man with a black > heart, nor a black man with a white heart, but a black man with a black > heart." There is a transitional piece that may well be important in the history of "Uncle Tom". http://goo.gl/QAPG8 The International Socialist Review. Volume 9(12). June 1909 The Economic Aspects of the Negro Problem. VIII. The Negro Problem from the Negro's Point of View. By I. M. Robbins. pp. 985-7 > Besides, Mrs. Stowe's types are the complex types produced by two hundred > years of slavery. It would have been extremely interesting to enter the > inner world of that infuriated negro, whom the negro dealer had caught in > the jungle of wildest Africa, and brought him over, chained in the dark and > ill-smelling bunker of the ship, to the distant land, where he was sold to > work the rest of his life in the marshy rice fields, or the sun-baked cotton > plantations. It would have been highly instructive to follow up the > evolution of that wild beast into the mellow and faithful Uncle Tom of a > century later. But this psychologic problem never had the good fortune to > find its scientific investigator. > In the glorious days of slavery, that is during the first third of the last > century, the white south was firmly convinced that it was the destiny of the > negro both, according to God's will, and the dictum of science, to be > nothing else than a faithful Uncle Tom. That the negro was satisfied with > his lot was the strongest article of faith--of the white man. > Such assertions may even be heard to-day, though perhaps not so frequently > as forty years ago. The famous South Carolina Senator Tillman, perhaps one > of the strongest negro haters in the South, in theory at least, once > remarked that the main proof that they deserved the treatment accorded to > them was found just in this: that no other race would tolerate such > treatment. ... > If all through the period of slavery negroes energetically voiced their > protest against slavery not so much by words as by acts, they were no less > anxious, immediately after the emancipation, to express their conviction > that they were no lower, nor worse, than the white folks. Uncle Tom was not > the ideal of those few negroes of that period who had ideals at all. It was > rather Toussaint L'Ouverture, that full-blooded negro, who succeeded in > creating a negro republic in Haiti. Although Stowe--and, indeed, her book--is mentioned, the use of "Uncle Tom" is more symbolic and representative than literary and specific. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > The OED has Uncle Tomming with a first citation in 1947. > Uncle Toming n. (also Uncle Tomming) > 1947 S. Lewis Kingsblood Royal x. 52 Why, you gold-digging, > uncle-tomming, old, black he-courtesan! > > Here is a relevant cite in 1933: > > Cite: 1933 March 18, The Pittsburgh Courier, Views and Reviews by > George S. Schuyler, Page 10, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (ProQuest) > > Negroes responsible for the ballyhoo about conditions being so good > down South that Negroes who escaped should return there, are merely > Uncle Tomming in the hope that it will please the white folks. > > There are many earlier instances of "Uncle Tomming" with multiple > overlapping senses. An "Uncle Tomming" troupe is a theatrical group > that performs "Uncle Tom's Cabin". "Uncle Tomming" also refers to > performing as part of such a troupe. > > Garson > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > >> Green’s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite > >> for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating > >> could probably be improved on by a systematic search. > > > > Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are > > unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, > > but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term > > "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or > > later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) > > > > An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 > > books.google.com > > Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview > > But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can > > afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their > > "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them > > "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=tomming#v=snippet& > > > > > > Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The > > first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but > > there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle > > Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or > > later. > > > > The Negro in America > > books.google.com > > Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view > > And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them > > for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling > > them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by > > suspecting them of being ... > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=vTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=Tomming#search_anchor > > > > Worldcat has an entry that says: > > The Negro in America > > Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal > > Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] > > > > But another edition was published in 1964: > > 1. The Negro in America. > > With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. > > Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > > > >> > >> According to the late-great: > >> > >> "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may > >> _tom out_ on yo' ass." > >> -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't > >> Crap! (Laff Records) > >> > >> I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 09:12:15 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 05:12:15 -0400 Subject: open-ended hurricane headline Message-ID: http://goo.gl/vWPMr Irene hammers North Carolina but damage not as bad, officials say "Not as bad" as what? As expected? As it could have been? As it has been in the past? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 28 13:55:33 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 09:55:33 -0400 Subject: open-ended hurricane headline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > http://goo.gl/vWPMr > Irene hammers North Carolina but damage not as bad, officials say > > > "Not as bad" as what? As expected? As it could have been? As it has been in > the past? > as in The Last Days. That's Bible Belt country, right? ;-) LH, amid the flickering lights, ceiling leaks, and flying tree limbs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 14:24:46 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:24:46 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108280044.p7RAu72Q007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The original software quote seems so normal to me that I'm still not sure what the problem is. JL On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:27 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > "This software is, what, 9 years old?" > > It's obvious. Once that it has been pointed out.;-) > > I prefer > > 'This software is, what? Like, 9 years old?" > > But that's merely difference in taste, not a difference in substance. > > My congratulations on your perspicacity! > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 14:28:51 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:28:51 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108280814.p7S84dNr013781@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Tom," v. 3, seem to me far more likely to be from "tomcatting," regardless of sex, than from "Uncle-Tomming," regardless of race. JL On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 4:14 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: "Uncle Tomming" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [Uncle Tom, n. 1922 --> 1920 --> 1909? --> 1908?] > > Tom/Tomming and Uncle Tom/Uncle Tomming should be tracked separately, > although, of course, it's not an easy task. Note, in particular, OED tom v. > > Etymology: < Tom n.1 > > 1. trans. To address familiarly as =E2=80=98Tom=E2=80=99. nonce-use. > > 1900 S. J. Weyman Sophia xxiv, =E2=80=98You may Tom me, you don't > al= > ter it=E2=80=99, > > he answered. > > > > > 2. intr. [ < Tom n.1 1f] To behave in an ingratiating and servile way to > > someone of another (esp. white) race. Also to tom it (up) . U.S. slang. > > 1963 L. Bennett in W. King Black Short Story Anthol. (1972) 161 They > > say you are going to chicken out, Papa.=E2=80=A5 They're betting you'll = > =E2=80=98Tom=E2=80=99. > > 1972 M. J. Bosse Incident at Naha ii. 94 Virgil just smiled, Tomming > > it up. > > 1976 Public Opinion Q. XXXIX. 527 The respondent > =E2=80=98accommodat= > es=E2=80=99, or to > > use the colloquial term, =E2=80=98toms=E2=80=99, in order to get through > = > the racial > > interaction with minimal tension. > > > > > 3. intr. To practise prostitution, to behave promiscuously; also, to have > > sexual intercourse in such a context. Also to tom (it) around . slang. > > 1964 Z. Progl Woman of Underworld iii. 35 They were perfectly > willin= > g > > to go =E2=80=98tomming=E2=80=99 on the streets to earn a few quid, but I > = > never could. > > 1968 =E2=80=98J. Ross=E2=80=99 Diminished by Death i. 14 She's just > = > tomming around. > > 1973 J. Rossiter Manipulators ix. 102 This woman.=E2=80=A5 Is she > to= > mming it > > around with the local villains? > > 1981 A. Sewart Close your Eyes & Sleep xviii. 181 What was she > doing= > ? > > Tomming, to put it bluntly. She was having it off with a bloke. > > > > Derivatives > > > > =CB=88tomming n. > > 1968 J. Lock Lady Policeman ii. 12 A prostitute was a =E2=80=98tom= > =E2=80=99=E2=80=A5and to > > practise prostitution was =E2=80=98tomming=E2=80=99. > > 1973 Black World May 44 Afrikan People all over the world Conscious, > > unconscious, struggling, sleeping, Resisting, tomming, killing the enemy. > > 1981 =E2=80=98J. Ross=E2=80=99 Dark Blue & Dangerous ix. 55 His own > = > tomming around had > > given him a charitable view of casual sex. > > > > Note that tom n.1 1f does reference "Uncle Tom", so the verb is linked to > its origin, even though the overarching etymology note omits that little > detail (v. 1. is of a different cloth and is irrelevant to the rest of the > post). Now, for my money, v. 3. and the derivative "noun" tomming are both > derived from v. 2 and not some hypothetical "Tom" that parallels the > hypothetical "John". The timing certainly fits. > > Now, 1922 sounds awfully late for early "Uncle Tom" references, even for > noun. > > Here's one earlier, but it doesn't seem quite right: > > > http://goo.gl/bHE6M > Current Literature. Volume 45 (6). December 1908 > Mr. Stringer's Arraignment of the "Canada Fakers". p. 644/2 > > > Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound being used in this man-hunt; > > and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer asserts, "in the country of > > which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are not found there, and it > woul= > d > > be as foolish to import them as it would be to bring in an army of Uncle > = > Toms > > to gather cotton from the Moose River bottoms." Then Mr. White represents > > the Ojibways and the Chippewas as engaged in deadly strife, which is > just= > as > > reasonable, Mr. Stringer opines, as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks > = > and > > Canadians, of New Yorkers and Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas > = > are > > one people. > > > > Note that this is not quite the same slur, but rather a juxtaposition > between "Uncle Toms" and "gather[ing] cotton" from Moose River bottoms that > Mr. Stringer (the critic) finds incongruous. The issue here is inability to > grow cotton at a Canadian location and "Uncle Toms" are thrown in for color > (no pun intended). > > I thought a more extended passage might set the context: > > "We see the same tendency to dish up a goulash of dilettante details spiced > > with sentiment when Sir Gilbert turns historical and has General Wolfe > 'e= > ye' > > his men in the boats at the turn of the tide in the St. Lawrence (on the > > night preceding Quebec's fall) when that night has already been > described= > as > > pitch dark, and when it is plain that these men were so many, many > hundre= > d > > feet away." > > Mr. Stringer confesses that he approaches the blunders of Stewart Edward > = > White > > with a feeling akin to trepidation, not, he explains, because Mr. White > i= > s > > the master of a forceful and fluent style, but because "so august a > > personage as the Washington enemy of the nature faker himself has placed > = > on > > Mr. White the seal of his complete approval." Yet blunders there are, and > > not a few. The very plot of "The Silent Places" is, in Mr. Stringer's > > judgment, based upon a fallacy. This story describes the prolonged and > > relentless pursuit of a defalcating Indian by two hired agents of the > > Hudson's Bay Company; but "it is not and never was the custom of the > > company," says Mr. Stringer, "to expend good money for the active > pursuit= > of > > delinquents." The mere "posting," or black-listing, of any defalcator at > = > the > > different trading places of the company has been all that was necessary > t= > o > > bring him to book as a rule. Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound > > being used in this man-hunt; and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer > > asserts, "in the country of which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are > > not found there, and it would be as foolish to import them as it would > be= > to > > bring in an army of Uncle Toms to gather cotton from the Moose River > > bottoms." Then Mr. White represents the Ojibways and the Chippewas as > > engaged in deadly strife, which is just as reasonable, Mr. Stringer > opine= > s, > > as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks and Canadians, of New Yorkers and > > Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas are one people. > > The same sort of blunders are discerned in Stewart Edward White's > > "Conjurer's House," and are all attributed by Mr. Stringer to "the > passio= > n > > to make the trails of the north either always picturesque or always > tragi= > c." > > > There is a bunch of nice points here, starting with "dish[ing] up goulash > o= > f > dilettante details"; "black-listing" as posting notices of "defalcators" > (embezzlers?)--no OED listing suggests that anyone on the black-list ought > to be caught but merely rendered unemployable; "Gothamites" matched up with > "New Yorkers"--making of a nice post-dating citation; and the mention of > "Canucks" that the OED, for some reason, finds "In U.S. usage, gen. > derogatory" (clearly not even remotely the connotation here). All of these > under one very tidy roof. > > However, the main one for citing it here--Uncle Toms--appears to fail. It > i= > s > obvious that the reference here is to blacks, but there is no hint of the > additional connotation of being subservient or servile. The only reason > tha= > t > this reference is there is to point to the absurdity of blacks picking > cotton at "Moose River bottoms"--it's not clear where the conflict lies, > bu= > t > it is surely not in their being excessively subservient. > > The opposite is true of another 1908 Uncle Tom reference. This one is in > Punch, but it identifies a proper name--fictitious, but referring to a > specific person, just like its antecedent. But IMO the usage of this name > i= > s > exactly matching the derogatory general use. I only submit the link because > the entire text should be considered in this analysis: > > http://goo.gl/Byd49 > > The particularly odd thing about this is that it's English, not US, but its > origin appears to be in minstrel show versions of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Does > this one deserve at least a bracketed treatment in the OED? > > The best certain antedating I can get right now is 1920. > > http://goo.gl/PG3Rp > The Herald and Presbyter. A Presbyterian Family Paper. Volume > 91(32). Cincinnati, OH: August 11, 1920 > New York Letter. By Rev. Clarence C. Reynolds. p. 6/3 > > > "... The Uncle Tom Negro has got to go, and his place must be taken by > th= > e > > new leader of the Negro race. That man will not be a white man with a > bla= > ck > > heart, nor a black man with a white heart, but a black man with a black > > heart." > > > > There is a transitional piece that may well be important in the history of > "Uncle Tom". > > http://goo.gl/QAPG8 > The International Socialist Review. Volume 9(12). June 1909 > The Economic Aspects of the Negro Problem. VIII. The Negro Problem from the > Negro's Point of View. By I. M. Robbins. pp. 985-7 > > > Besides, Mrs. Stowe's types are the complex types produced by two hundred > > years of slavery. It would have been extremely interesting to enter the > > inner world of that infuriated negro, whom the negro dealer had caught in > > the jungle of wildest Africa, and brought him over, chained in the dark > a= > nd > > ill-smelling bunker of the ship, to the distant land, where he was sold > t= > o > > work the rest of his life in the marshy rice fields, or the sun-baked > cot= > ton > > plantations. It would have been highly instructive to follow up the > > evolution of that wild beast into the mellow and faithful Uncle Tom of a > > century later. But this psychologic problem never had the good fortune to > > find its scientific investigator. > > In the glorious days of slavery, that is during the first third of the > la= > st > > century, the white south was firmly convinced that it was the destiny of > = > the > > negro both, according to God's will, and the dictum of science, to be > > nothing else than a faithful Uncle Tom. That the negro was satisfied with > > his lot was the strongest article of faith--of the white man. > > Such assertions may even be heard to-day, though perhaps not so > frequentl= > y > > as forty years ago. The famous South Carolina Senator Tillman, perhaps > on= > e > > of the strongest negro haters in the South, in theory at least, once > > remarked that the main proof that they deserved the treatment accorded to > > them was found just in this: that no other race would tolerate such > > treatment. > > ... > > If all through the period of slavery negroes energetically voiced their > > protest against slavery not so much by words as by acts, they were no > les= > s > > anxious, immediately after the emancipation, to express their conviction > > that they were no lower, nor worse, than the white folks. Uncle Tom was > n= > ot > > the ideal of those few negroes of that period who had ideals at all. It > w= > as > > rather Toussaint L'Ouverture, that full-blooded negro, who succeeded in > > creating a negro republic in Haiti. > > > Although Stowe--and, indeed, her book--is mentioned, the use of "Uncle Tom" > is more symbolic and representative than literary and specific. > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > > > > The OED has Uncle Tomming with a first citation in 1947. > > Uncle Toming n. (also Uncle Tomming) > > 1947 S. Lewis Kingsblood Royal x. 52 Why, you gold-digging, > > uncle-tomming, old, black he-courtesan! > > > > Here is a relevant cite in 1933: > > > > Cite: 1933 March 18, The Pittsburgh Courier, Views and Reviews by > > George S. Schuyler, Page 10, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (ProQuest) > > > > Negroes responsible for the ballyhoo about conditions being so good > > down South that Negroes who escaped should return there, are merely > > Uncle Tomming in the hope that it will please the white folks. > > > > There are many earlier instances of "Uncle Tomming" with multiple > > overlapping senses. An "Uncle Tomming" troupe is a theatrical group > > that performs "Uncle Tom's Cabin". "Uncle Tomming" also refers to > > performing as part of such a troupe. > > > > Garson > > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Garson O'Toole > > wrote: > > > Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > > >> Green=E2=80=99s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite > > >> for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating > > >> could probably be improved on by a systematic search. > > > > > > Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are > > > unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, > > > but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term > > > "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or > > > later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) > > > > > > An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 > > > books.google.com > > > Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview > > > But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can > > > afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their > > > "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them > > > "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... > > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=3Dtomming#v=3Dsnippet= > & > > > > > > > > > Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The > > > first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but > > > there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle > > > Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or > > > later. > > > > > > The Negro in America > > > books.google.com > > > Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view > > > And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them > > > for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling > > > them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by > > > suspecting them of being ... > > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DvTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=3DTomming#search_anch= > or > > > > > > Worldcat has an entry that says: > > > The Negro in America > > > Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal > > > Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] > > > > > > But another edition was published in 1964: > > > 1. The Negro in America. > > > With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. > > > Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > > > > > >> > > >> According to the late-great: > > >> > > >> "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may > > >> _tom out_ on yo' ass." > > >> -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't > > >> Crap! (Laff Records) > > >> > > >> I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> -Wilson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 28 16:42:11 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 09:42:11 -0700 Subject: -ify and -ification Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pepsification/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 16:48:15 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:48:15 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108280108.p7RB1rDn016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The issue here is that the word disappeared and reappeared. If neologism is incorrect, then what is the correct term for these phoenix words? (OT -- "phoenix" is a nounjective, as I understand it) DanG On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Recency illusion: today's example > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:35 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >> "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a >> "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we >> refer to something as "neologism"? >> > > Most likely, it depends upon the person. After all, "Self is the > measure of all things," as the saying goes. If it's a neologism to > *me*, then, clearly, it's a neologism. Q.E.D. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 16:54:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:54:25 -0400 Subject: "all things + NP" In-Reply-To: <201108131936.p7CMKc3t022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fox News Channel recommends heading to their website for "everything Fox News Channel Online." JL On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "all things + NP" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > CNN promises to keep you posted on "all things campaign politics." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 28 18:59:36 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 11:59:36 -0700 Subject: Hibachi - North America meaning missing Message-ID: The OED has one meaning of hibachi (matching the Japanese), but the North American meaning (a shichirin) is missing. The difference is described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibachi. The NA meaning is the one I grew up with. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 19:26:54 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 15:26:54 -0400 Subject: "telegraph pole" antedating Message-ID: The OED has "telegraph pole" only from 1851. 1846 _Cleveland [O.] Herald_ (Aug. 22) [Gale 19th Century U.S.American Newspapers]: He was...too tall for anything but a telegraph pole. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 20:08:19 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 16:08:19 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <201108262238.p7QJWNJF002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Clear but not transparent? A distinction I cannot as yet fathom. DanG On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly it's the latter that was intended. > > LH > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 28 20:51:57 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 16:51:57 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:08 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Clear but not transparent? A distinction I cannot as yet fathom. > DanG > > ? I wasn't trying to distinguish "clear" and "transparent", but rather what was/would have been transparent (or clear) to me on hearing/reading it and what must have clearly been intended by the speaker/writer, given the context. What was not transparent to me is that "When you substitute him" could really mean "When you take him out and put in someone else" (as opposed to "When you put him in and take out someone else"). What is clear is that that's what the writer/speaker intended to convey, given the overall context. This is a fact about the difference between the two dialects. Before I became familiar with the British use of "knock up", if I had come across a female character in a movie or book saying to her male counterpart "Please knock me up in the morning" it would not have been transparent to me that she meant 'please awaken me in the morning by knocking', yet clearly, that's what she would have meant (especially if she had uttered it with a British accent). Or perhaps a more natural example: the first time I came across someone saying something like "If she was wearing her seatbelt she may have survived the accident", I could only interpret it as suggesting that the speaker was agnostic as to the subject's survival; to express the counterfactual, presupposing that she didn't survive, I would have expected "…she might have survived the accident". But now I recognize that for the "new" dialect (don't know how new it actually is), "may" can be used to express this counterfactual ! or subjunctive meaning as well. Hope that's clearer and/or more transparent. LH > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >> Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly it's the latter that was intended. >> >> LH >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 21:23:00 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:23:00 -0400 Subject: gamify, gamification Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote > Subject: -ify and -ification > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pepsification/ Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > A whole lotta ification going on. A popular term that I did not see in the ADS archive is gamification. It has a Wikipedia entry, a dedicated blog, and a conference: The Gamification Summit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification http://gamification.org/wiki/Gamification Gamification is the concept that you can apply the basic elements that make games fun and engaging to things that typically aren't considered a game. In theory you can apply Game Design to almost anything including Education, Health, Work and more. See Gamification by Industry. http://gamification.org/wiki/Encyclopedia http://gsummit.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 28 23:09:04 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:09:04 +0000 Subject: open-ended hurricane headline Message-ID: Not as bad as having to live in The North? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn To: Date: Sunday, August 28, 2011 9:55:33 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] open-ended hurricane headline On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > http://goo.gl/vWPMr > Irene hammers North Carolina but damage not as bad, officials say > > > "Not as bad" as what? As expected? As it could have been? As it has been in > the past? > as in The Last Days. That's Bible Belt country, right? ;-) LH, amid the flickering lights, ceiling leaks, and flying tree limbs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 29 00:34:55 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:34:55 -0400 Subject: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: <1C074717-AE75-46BF-8CF3-520E1523A4CC@stanford.edu> Message-ID: I always thought one of the more creative examples of what you and Geoff call "playful" word formation was "Californication", which—before it became a Red Hot Chili Peppers song or a series on Showtime—was a word of warning used by folks in Oregon (and elsewhere?) urging wariness if not strong resistance toward unbridled growth lest their pristine coastline turn into (shudder) L.A. Mark II. Checking on wiki, I find that the warning was far more widespread, and the coinage far older (I remember it from the early 1980s) than I knew: ================ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(word) Californication is a portmanteau of the words California and fornication, appearing in Time on May 6, 1966 and written about on August 21, 1972, additionally seen on bumper stickers in the U.S. states of Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Oregon, Idaho, and Washington. It was a term popular in the 1970s and referring primarily to the "haphazard, mindless development [of land] that has already gobbled up most of Southern California", which some attributed to an influx of Californians to other states in the Western United States. […] ================= LH On Aug 28, 2011, at 12:42 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pepsification/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 00:38:57 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:38:57 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" Message-ID: I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: "One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as light as a feather and as white as snow." Googling tells me that Sarah Orne Jewett wrote "and preferred an Indian pudding to pie crust that was, without exaggeration, half a quarter high." A book on Texas court cases has "The sun was about half a quarter high when the defendant left the witness." "On either side of the seams at the bottom of the cap one sees the black and white stripes attached to and at the sides of the black neck-pieces; and the border round the bottom of the cap, which is just under half a quarter high," From a Swedish (?) journal, 1953. I also find "The Womens shooes are half a quarter high at the heel, set on with little nails, in so much that they can hardly go in them." This is in "The voyages and travells of the ambassadors sent by Frederick Duke of Holstein ...", by Adam Olearius (1669). So this can't be a literal reference to the size of a U.S. quarter. What does "half a quarter high" mean? A reference to an eighth of some unspecified unit? (But for both the sun and pies/shoes?) Or something metaphorical? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 03:45:08 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:45:08 -0700 Subject: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: <201108290035.p7SApW6n010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > > I always thought one of the more creative examples of what you and Geoff = > call "playful" word formation was "Californication", which=97before it = > became a Red Hot Chili Peppers song or a series on Showtime=97was a word = > of warning used by folks in Oregon (and elsewhere?) urging wariness if = > not strong resistance toward unbridled growth lest their pristine = > coastline turn into (shudder) L.A. Mark II. > > Checking on wiki, I find that the warning was far more widespread, and = > the coinage far older (I remember it from the early 1980s) than I knew:... fascinating. i did mention "Californication" (the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the tv show) in http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/creepitude/ but i didn't trace it back any further than these two vectors. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 04:33:48 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:33:48 -0700 Subject: gamify, gamification In-Reply-To: <201108282123.p7SB4XkQ025262@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > A popular term that I did not see in the ADS archive is gamification... thanks, Garson. added as a comment on my posting. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 04:42:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:42:03 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet Message-ID: http://goo.gl/a3SmM -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 04:45:15 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:45:15 -0400 Subject: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: <201108290345.p7SApWHb010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This post is *not* about _reify_ and _reification_! WTF?!!! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: � � � American Dialect Society > Poster: � � � Arnold Zwicky > Subject: � � � Re: -ify and -ification > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > >> >> I always thought one of the more creative examples of what you and Geoff = >> call "playful" word formation was "Californication", which=97before it = >> became a Red Hot Chili Peppers song or a series on Showtime=97was a word = >> of warning used by folks in Oregon (and elsewhere?) urging wariness if = >> not strong resistance toward unbridled growth lest their pristine = >> coastline turn into (shudder) L.A. Mark II. >> >> Checking on wiki, I find that the warning was far more widespread, and = >> the coinage far older (I remember it from the early 1980s) than I knew:... > > fascinating. � i did mention "Californication" (the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the tv show) in > � http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/creepitude/ > but i didn't trace it back any further than these two vectors. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 05:29:39 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 01:29:39 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" In-Reply-To: <201108290039.p7SBEX8T026015@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an instance of "half an eighth high" that might be useful in formulating a hypothesis. Title: He That Eateth Bread With Me Author: Hersilia A. Mitchell Keays Publisher: McClure, Phillips & Co., 1904 But listen - I'll make you forget all about my being only five feet one inch and half an eighth high. http://books.google.com/books?id=fooOAAAAYAAJ&q=eighth#v=snippet& The book "He That Eateth Bread With Me" was also serialized in the newspaper Jersey Journal and the phrase above appeared on July 14, 1906 on page 8 (GenealogyBank page 10). On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: > > "One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry > and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as > light as a feather and as white as snow." > > Googling tells me that Sarah Orne Jewett wrote "and preferred an > Indian pudding to pie crust that was, without exaggeration, half a > quarter high." > > A book on Texas court cases has "The sun was about half a quarter > high when the defendant left the witness." > > "On either side of the seams at the bottom of the cap one sees the > black and white stripes attached to and at the sides of the black > neck-pieces; and the border round the bottom of the cap, which is > just under half a quarter high," From a Swedish (?) journal, 1953. > > I also find "The Womens shooes are half a quarter high at the heel, > set on with little nails, in so much that they can hardly go in > them." This is in "The voyages and travells of the ambassadors sent > by Frederick Duke of Holstein ...", by Adam Olearius (1669). > > So this can't be a literal reference to the size of a U.S. quarter. > > What does "half a quarter high" mean? A reference to an eighth of > some unspecified unit? (But for both the sun and pies/shoes?) Or > something metaphorical? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 10:11:45 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:11:45 +0800 Subject: Stupefication Message-ID: In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" in a class assignment, ignorant to the fact that it should have been "stupefaction". The seminarian teaching the class held up my paper and laughed at me (what a jerk), offering no explanation as to the reason behind this strange morphological form. Google tells me I'm not the only one using this word -- it's even in many headlines. But I still have no idea what is going on morphologically. Anyone care to elucidate? -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 11:57:33 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 07:57:33 -0400 Subject: choppergate Message-ID: Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: http://goo.gl/6y8Be > Sacked Channel 9 'Choppergate' reporter Melissa Mallet denies any > wrongdoing There is a US version of "Choppergate" as well: http://goo.gl/5TavP NJ Lawmaker Calls 'Choppergate' Hearing > The Democrat chairwoman of the Assembly Homeland Security Committee says > she'll convene a hearing into New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie's use of a > state police helicopter to fly to his son's baseball game. The NJ story simmered about two weeks earlier but ultimately faded. The Australian one has just percolated over the weekend. There are some oddities in the Australian article aside from the scandal's name, so let me cover the whole thing. The basis of the scandal is multiple instances when Brisbane's Channel 9 reporters were not where the screen caption reported they were. Generally, this was connected to the station's helicopter--hence the name "Choppergate". Here's a companion story: http://goo.gl/tHsbW > Choppergate scandal began with quiet backyard barbecue There are some lines in both stories that might be of interest--at least, they sounded odd enough to me to deserve a mention. I'm certainly not up on my Strine. (Second article first.) 1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: "Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a bit weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the Channel 9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a bit more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being somewhere else. The rival network investigated and confirmed that this appeared to be regular practice at Channel 9. Two reporters and a news producer had been sacked, and a news executive resigned--depending on whom you believe, either in protest to the sacking of others or because of obvious involvement or because he "was pushed". I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". 4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. Also > attrib. orig. U.S. Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ redirects to barbecue n. 4.) 2. throwing snags on the barbie: Channel 7 reporter Peter Doherty was throwing some snags on the barbie at > his suburban Bardon home just before 6pm on Saturday when he noticed the > Nine chopper overhead OED seems to have this one covered: snag n.4==sausage, but the whole expression is just cute, so I though it to be worth a mention. 3. aviaton tragics: It was simple detective work by a pair of self-proclaimed "aviation tragics" > that would eventually claim the scalps of four Channel 9 staff, including > the station's most senior news executive. To be honest, I'm not even sure what to make of this. A bit further down the article mentions that one of the employees for Channel 7 is an "aviation buff", but I'm not sure these are quite the same thing. 4. rostered on: On Sunday, Breusch was rostered on and mentioned that he had heard what he > believed to be the Nine chopper hovering over his house the previous > evening. The verb is perfectly ordinary, but the combination with the preposition and passive is a bit unusual. Or not. All this means is that the guy was on duty. 5. weekend reader: Just after 6pm, Nine's weekend reader Eva Milic crossed to young gun > reporter Cameron Price hovering "near Beerwah". This meaning of reader==anchor is not covered in OED. Also note that the second article has "weekend presenter": In the second instance, reporter Cameron Price, who has also been fired, was sitting on 9's Mt Coot-tha helipad when weekend presenter Eva Milic declared he was near the search site. 6. cross, n. and v.: For v., see 5. above. Also: Just after 6pm, seemingly true to their word, Nine crossed "live" to young > reporter Melissa Mallet hovering "near Beerwah" where police were hunting > for the body of the murdered teenager. For n.: While hovering above Brisbane in a helicopter for a live cross about the > case, an on-screen caption falsely stated she was "near Beerwah". and Transmission problems forced her to head back towards Brisbane for a live > cross to the 6pm news bulletin, she said. Neither is in the OED. Nor is cross n.==cross-over nor cross n.==off-road sporting event (running, motorcycle, bicycle events) nor cross, n.==cross-examination and cross v.==cross-examine nor cross==cross-stitch nor cross==cross-cut. Obviously, "live cross" as above and "on cross"==during cross-examination are also not listed. Also note a response from another network station: http://goo.gl/yckxA > A Channel 9 Melbourne spokeswoman was yesterday keen to reiterate Nine News > Melbourne had never faked a live cross. 7. young gun: See above under 5. Is this ==hot-shot? Simply ==young and eager? Either way, no hint in the OED. Cf. Brat Pack's Young Guns and Young Guns II. 8. vision: Seven's vision would later confirm the Nine chopper was stationary on its > helipad. Not even sure what that means. But here's a clue: http://goo.gl/bWbRi > The reason we know this is that Channel Seven recorded it from a camera > mounted on their transmission tower nearby. ... > And with the camera which we have on the tower - we use it film all sorts > of things, bushfires, storm fronts rolling through, all sorts of things. It > gets pretty rotated. > > So at about ten to six on Sunday night we flicked it across and there was > the helicopter sitting there. We thought it's not going to make Beerwah. 9. nightly bulletin: It was unusual for a chopper to circle Mt Coot-tha during the nightly > bulletin, unless a major story was breaking nearby. and Up at Channel 9 that evening, a staff member preparing for the nightly > bulletin updated the network's Twitter feed. ==evening news (US). Nothing out of the ordinary and bulletin==broadcast report is in OED. But it's not quite the same--the OED listing is literally a report, with only four examples, two each from 1925 Times and from 1938. The meaning of "scheduled TV news program" seems to be more recent. (Both UK and Aust.?) 10. claim the scalp: See under 3. above. OED only has the narrow b. fig. as the symbol of a victory gained. In this case, there is no "victory"--simply a "victim". 11. Coordination and generic "their": "I do feel let down. The viewer puts their trust in us and we certainly do > put our trust in other people as well behind the scenes," she told *The > Sunday Mail*. "Viewers put" would have made this easier, but this appears to be a fairly common switch--not sure if intentional or not. 12. weigh up: "The legal advice I had was pretty positive and reassuring that there was a > case, but I obviously had to weigh up some options." Yet another version of a verb with thatched on preposition where just the garden variety would do. That about does it. What I find particularly interesting is that most Australian news reports that I've seen prior to this appear to be far less distinctive in their lexicon. Whether it's ABC (Australian, not US), Sydney or Melbourne papers or even News.com.au, usually the text is perfectly readable, with only a few minor quirks. On this occasion, the combination of local expressions, including TV news jargon, has been quite jarring. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 13:16:31 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:16:31 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" In-Reply-To: <201108290529.p7SBEXGr026015@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A couple of minor thoughts. First, in terms of area, there is--currently, certainly not 150 years ago--a standard "sheet". Backing sheet sizes are often referred to as "half-sheet" and "quarter-sheet". A "full-sheet" is the size of a standard jelly-roll pan (a.k.a. cookie sheet--well, not quite, but close enough) or a rectangular cake pan in a commercial bakery. Occasionally, both the pans and the cakes are referred to as "halfs" and "quarters", rather than "half-sheet" or "quarter-sheet". But this is not the meaning Joel found. Second, the "quarter-high" need not refer to an absolute height (quarter of a fixed quantity), although it may refer to the diameter of the quarter-dollar coin that's been constant for quite a few years, or possibly even a quarter-inch. But consider this excerpt: http://goo.gl/PLJrb Eaches or pieces order fulfillment, design, and operations handbook. By David E. Mulcahy. 2007 > > A pick position bin box with a half- or quarter-high front barrier is > precut or cut by a replenishment employee. This type of box has two side > walls, a rear wall, open or closed top, closed and solid bottom, and half- > or quarter-high open front. To provide strength and rigidity to the bin, > tape is used to secure the bottom flaps, or specially designed box inserts > are secured in precut holes. To create a half- or quarter-high open bin > front on a vendor carton, a replenishment employee uses a knife to cut a > square, smiley face, or V in the carton front. With a cut section removed > from front of the carton, this creates a half- or quarter-high front barrier > to retain SKUs that have a tendency to slide from a pick position. This > method provides increased bin rigidity and stability and a location for SKU > or pick position identification, increased SKU quantity in a pick position, > and open space for easy and quick SKU transfer from a pick position to a CO > container. Aside from a somewhat bizarre title, the passage appears to describe a standard display case box. The simple idea is exemplified by standard gum and candy stack boxes at supermarket checkouts and by cut-out boxes one usually sees on display shelves in Costco (most of top and front removed to display the contents, but also to keep it in place with the front "barrier"). We also get an example from "The Maine Sardine Industry" (USDA, January 18, 1921). http://goo.gl/u3HhH > PROPOSED SPECIFICATIONS. > The following specifications, based on the division of the pack into four > subdivisions, is offered as a working basis for a standardization of the > pack of Maine sardines. > Standards. > Cans.—Quarter size only, plain or decorated. > Fish.—Not less than 5 to a can, preferably 6. Steamed; not necessarily > eviscerated, though this would insure a better product; carefully packed > brights up, to make a neat and attractive package. > Oil.—Prime, summer yellow cottonseed, or corn, not less than 75 per cent of > a gallon (3 quarts) to a case of 100 cans. > Extra Standards. > Cans.—Quarter, high-quarter, and half sizes, plain or decorated. etc. This is very different usage, however, from earlier absolutes. For absolutes, consider (1793) [weights omitted] http://goo.gl/ZM9gD > TABLE > Shewing what Weight Horses are to carry, that run for Give-and-take Plates, > from Twelve to Fifteen high; Fourteen Hands carrying Nine Stone. > TWELVE HANDS--- > And half a quarter of an inch--- > And a quarter--- > A quarter and half a quarter--- > Half an inch--- > Half an inch and half a quarter--- > Three quarters of an inch--- > Three quarters and half a quarter--- > One inch--- > One inch and half a quarter--- > One inch and a quarter--- > One inch, a quarter, and half a quarter--- etc. Similar tables appear in Racing Calendars for 1775 and 1786. An 1832 cookbook does similarly with pounds rather than inches: http://goo.gl/IMr9y > CREAM ITALIAN. (1) Boil a pint and a half of milk in a stew pan, then add > to it the peel of a young lemon, some coriander seed, a bit of cinuamon, > rather more than > half a quarter of a pound of sugar, and two or three grains of salt; let it > boil till Imlf it consumed; then let it stand to cool, and have ready in > another stewl»n a little Hour, beat up with the yolks of six egg*; stir it > by degrees into the cream; strain tt through a sieve, and put it in the dish > lor table, placing the dish in some hot water over the itre till the cream > is set. Before serving, brown with a salamander. > RATAFIA. Pound, with a little rose-water, two ounces of blanched sweet > almonds, and half a quarter of a pound of ratafia cakes, add the > well-beaten yolks of six, and the whites of two eggs, a pint of thick cream, > two glasses of white wine, and one ounce of pounded loaf sugar. Bake it in a > dish, lined with puff paste, for threequarters of an hour. etc. Division of property also has similar language (1845) http://goo.gl/aA2LJ p. 251 > At this time, and in pursuance of the said Act, with that of Explanation, > the following grants were made of property situated within the district of > the present inquiry: To Thomas Lloyd, Carrowbeg and Ardsallagh, 122A.; > Ardmore, one quarter; Cushina, half a quarter; Faus and Ardcock, 2 trines, > 200A. ; Cloinshaghan, one trine, 88A.; ... etc. On a different page, you may also find pp. 242-3 > In July 1617, the Earl of Kildare had a grant in fee of (inter alia) > Trienfaus, being one-third of the four quarters of Faus, as parcel of the > estate of Connor Roe, Mac Teigue Mac Owen Mac Dermott Roe, attained; ... ; > Lecarrownehinch, 1/2 quarter, being one-fourth of Corbally; two quarters, > three parts in five, of the half-quarter of Laveroe; ... Similarly, for cutting cloth (1825) http://goo.gl/OYoev p. 309 > HOW TO CUT OUT SHIRTS. > Yard-wide Irish. > Sixteen yards make six shirts. The length for each body is two yards, and > the width three-quarters, one nail and a half. Twelve yards make six bodies. > Before the lengths for the bodies are cut off, take half a quarter and half > a nail off the width of the cloth, which piece furnishes all the parts > belonging to the six shirts (except eight sleeve-pieces, which are supplied > from the sleeves) and is cut out as follows:—The width makes half a collar, > a quarter, half quarter, and half a nail long. Four yards, three quarters, > and half a quarter make the twelve half collars. One sleeve-gusset in the > width, first taking off the selvage, will be half a quarter, and near half a > nail square. One yard and three quarters make the twelve gussets. The cloth > is not wide enough for the width of two neck or side gussets; but it will > make the width of one, and a slip a nail wide, which will be the width of > the piece for the inside of the sleeves. Two yards and a quarter in length > therefore will make twenty-four small gussets a nail and a half square, and > four sleeve-pieces and a half, half a yard long. The width makes the width > of two wristbands or shoulderstraps, the wristbands one quarter long. One > yard and a half will make the six pair. The shoulder-straps one quarter, and > a quarter of a nail long. One yard and a half and two nafls make the six > pair. This exactly uses all the piece of cloth. > Four yards of the Irish cloth make six pair of sleeves, one and a half in > the width of the cloth half a yard long, half a yard and half a quarter > wide, first taking off a slip a nail wide from the width of the cloth for > the eight sleeve-pieces wanting above, which, doubled in eight, makes them > half a yard long, and with the four and a naif cut out before, completes > twelve sleeve-pieces and a halt. This half overplus being a quarter of a > yard in length, serves to cut out hearts for the bosoms. So the language seems to be quite common for at least a century (1740s to 1860s...), but it means different things in different contexts. VS-) On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:29 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Here is an instance of "half an eighth high" that might be useful in > formulating a hypothesis. > > Title: He That Eateth Bread With Me > Author: Hersilia A. Mitchell Keays > Publisher: McClure, Phillips & Co., 1904 > > But listen - I'll make you forget all about my being only five feet > one inch and half an eighth high. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fooOAAAAYAAJ&q=eighth#v=snippet& > > The book "He That Eateth Bread With Me" was also serialized in the > newspaper Jersey Journal and the phrase above appeared on July 14, > 1906 on page 8 (GenealogyBank page 10). > > > On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: > > > > "One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry > > and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as > > light as a feather and as white as snow." > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 14:48:43 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:48:43 -0400 Subject: OT: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see Arnold, unlike Archie, has two front legs that are far enough apart that he can hold down the Shift key at the same time as he strikes a letter key. Evidence below, in signed message. Joel At 8/28/2011 11:45 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: ... >fascinating. i did mention "Californication" (the Red Hot Chili >Peppers and the tv show) in > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/creepitude/ >but i didn't trace it back any further than these two vectors. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 14:51:21 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:51:21 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >http://goo.gl/a3SmM And for those students who didn't know them already, here they are! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 14:56:52 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:56:52 -0400 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 06:11 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: >In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" in a class >assignment, ignorant to the fact that it should have been >"stupefaction". The seminarian teaching the class held up my paper >and laughed at me (what a jerk), offering no explanation as to the >reason behind this strange morphological form. Just checking ... the OED does have "stupification", rare, one quotation, 1650. >Google tells me I'm not the only one using this word -- it's even in >many headlines. > >But I still have no idea what is going on morphologically. Anyone >care to elucidate? Yes, please. E.g.: stupefy -> stupefaction (more commonly) reify -> reification Joel >-- >Randy Alexander >Xiamen, China >Blogs: >Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu >Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen >Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 15:14:36 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:36 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 07:57 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: > >... > >Here's a companion story: > >http://goo.gl/tHsbW > > > Choppergate scandal began with quiet backyard barbecue > > > > There are some lines in both stories that might be of interest--at least, >they sounded odd enough to me to deserve a mention. I'm certainly not up on >my Strine. (Second article first.) > >1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: > >"Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ > > >Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a bit >weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the Channel >9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a bit >more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the >Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being >somewhere else. "from" = "by, via" here. "From" sense 14.a = Denoting ground, reason, cause, or motive: Because of, on account of, owing to, as a result of, through. Now replaced in some uses by for. >I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or >barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss >why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". > >4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which > > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. Also > > attrib. orig. U.S. > > >Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ >redirects to barbecue n. 4.) Have you ever tried to keep neighbors and passers-by out of your small, private, domestic pastime? See "Monty" panels from about 2 weeks ago.) :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 29 15:23:32 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:23:32 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it's a sneaky way to teach spelling. Note that "shitfull" is blocked, but "shitful" is just fine. On the other hand, it does seem to present challenges for teaching sex education. LH On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > http://goo.gl/a3SmM > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 15:29:29 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:29:29 -0700 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291011.p7TA06cB010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > > In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" in a class > assignment, ignorant to the fact that it should have been > "stupefaction". The seminarian teaching the class held up my paper > and laughed at me (what a jerk), offering no explanation as to the > reason behind this strange morphological form. > > Google tells me I'm not the only one using this word -- it's even in > many headlines. > > But I still have no idea what is going on morphologically. Anyone > care to elucidate? given stupefy, stupefication is exactly the form you'd predict from treating -EFY just as a spelling variant of -IFY. for complex historical reasons, verbs in -EFY (only a few of which are at all common) have derived nouns in -EFACTION: liquefaction, putrefaction, rarefaction, stupefaction. plus: satisfaction (satisy), petrifaction (petrify). and rarifaction as a variant of rarefaction. then: -IFY verbs normally have derived nouns in -IFICATION, so there's pressure to bring these odd ones into line, and in fact all of them have -IFICATION variants. for petrifaction, NOAD2 lists petrification as just a variant (and i prefer it, despite the title of George Bernard Shaw's silly one-act play, "Passion, Poison, and Petrifaction"). for the rest, -IFICATION is a non-standard variant, but very very common (in ghits): liquification, putrification, rarification, stupification; even satisfication. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:37:37 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:37:37 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: <201108291514.p7TAnQi2005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have no problem with the preposition--it's the two nouns (and perhaps the verb) that bother me. "X spotted from Y" has certain restrictions on X and Y. The restriction is violated on X and Y does not fit the narrative (although it fits the restriction)--unless, that is, a reporter identified the scandal on the spot (and named it) while peering from inside a grill. As for the second--it's called "fence", live with it. VS-) PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that it might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not completely half-witted. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/29/2011 07:57 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > >Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: > > > >... > > > >1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: > > > >"Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ > > > > > >Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a > bit > >weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the > Channel > >9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a > bit > >more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the > >Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being > >somewhere else. > > "from" = "by, via" here. "From" sense 14.a = Denoting ground, > reason, cause, or motive: Because of, on account of, owing to, as a > result of, through. Now replaced in some uses by for. > > > >I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or > >barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss > >why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". > > > >4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which > > > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. > Also > > > attrib. orig. U.S. > > > > > >Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ > >redirects to barbecue n. 4.) > > Have you ever tried to keep neighbors and passers-by out of your > small, private, domestic pastime? See "Monty" panels from about 2 > weeks ago.) :-) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:38:47 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:38:47 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: <201108291523.p7TAnQj2005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see "smut" is now a forbidden word. Or maybe only if somebody is Googling for it. JL On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think it's a sneaky way to teach spelling. Note that "shitfull" is > blocked, but "shitful" is just fine. On the other hand, it does seem to > present challenges for teaching sex education. > > LH > > On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > http://goo.gl/a3SmM > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:38:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:38:25 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" In-Reply-To: <201108291316.p7TAnQX8014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 9:16 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > somewhat bizarre title Only the title?;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Aug 29 15:40:31 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 07:40:31 -0800 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291457.p7TEutFv017769@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 29 Aug 2011, at 06:56, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Yes, please. E.g.: > stupefy -> stupefaction (more commonly) > reify -> reification It is my general, slightly improvised [so not deeply checked] understanding that English gets those Latinate and pseudo-Latinate words from three sources: a) from Latin via French (these usually go back to real Latin words that already have a pp in -factus and a noun in -factio - satisfacere (satisfaction) - satifier - satisfy), b) from learned coinings, usually from the 19th century (reify) c) from productive English use of the -ify suffix (speechify, Pepsify, whatever). The latter and usually the middle categories should get Englishified nouns in -(i)fication (using the ablaut fac>fic). This also leads to the mostly applicable rule that verbs in -efy get nouns in -faction and verbs in -ify get nouns in -ification. Chris Waigl -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 15:40:58 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:40:58 -0700 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: <201108291523.p7TAnQj6005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > I think it's a sneaky way to teach spelling. Note that "shitfull" is blocked, but "shitful" is just fine. On the other hand, it does seem to present challenges for teaching sex education. yes, indeed. though the list is a list of banned *words*, it's really a list of banned *concepts*, regardless of the style level of the words used to refer to them. so all of the following are out: clitoris, vagina, penis, anus, ejaculate, orgasm, fellatio, cunnilingus. (intercourse and breast aren't on the list, presumably because the words have non-sexual uses. but if the list isn't applied case-sensitively, then dick is a problem. and so on, as with all such lists.) (note than damn and hell are "bad words", regardless of their uses.) > > On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> http://goo.gl/a3SmM arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:51:23 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:51:23 -0400 Subject: disenfranchised = 'disenchanted (about something political)' Message-ID: In a conversation with Tea Party reps this morning, one of the very highly paid CNN anchors spoke twice about a poll that, according to her, showed that forty percent of Americans were "disenfranchised" by the Tea Party. Elsewhen, Christine O'Donnell recently explained that "I think the Tea Party goes beyond Republicans. It’s Democrats, Independents and Republicans who are disenfranchised with what they see coming out of Washington." : http://www.mediaite.com/tv/christine-odonnell-tea-party-goes-beyond-gop-includes-disenfranchised-dems-and-independents/ JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 16:02:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:02:03 -0400 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291011.p7TA06cF010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 6:11 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" Personally, I'm very much impressed! When I was in 4th grade at a Catholic school, the nun would have reacted as Johnson did to a woman preaching. Assuming that the nun was herself familiar with the word, of course. > what a jerk Even though you describe something that happened dekkids ago, I nevertheless find your restraint admirable! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 16:11:17 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:11:17 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: <201108291537.p7TAlenu030049@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Completely half-witted"?? Is my wit half-full or half empty? DanG On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: choppergate > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have no problem with the preposition--it's the two nouns (and perhaps the > verb) that bother me. "X spotted from Y" has certain restrictions on X and > Y. The restriction is violated on X and Y does not fit the narrative > (although it fits the restriction)--unless, that is, a reporter identified > the scandal on the spot (and named it) while peering from inside a grill. > > As for the second--it's called "fence", live with it. > > VS-) > > PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. > Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that it > might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not > completely half-witted. > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> >> At 8/29/2011 07:57 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >> >Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: >> > >> >... >> > >> >1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: >> > >> >"Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ >> > >> > >> >Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a >> bit >> >weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the >> Channel >> >9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a >> bit >> >more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the >> >Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being >> >somewhere else. >> >> "from" = "by, via" here. "From" sense 14.a = Denoting ground, >> reason, cause, or motive: Because of, on account of, owing to, as a >> result of, through. Now replaced in some uses by for. >> >> >> >I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or >> >barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss >> >why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". >> > >> >4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which >> > > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. >> Also >> > > attrib. orig. U.S. >> > >> > >> >Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ >> >redirects to barbecue n. 4.) >> >> Have you ever tried to keep neighbors and passers-by out of your >> small, private, domestic pastime? See "Monty" panels from about 2 >> weeks ago.) :-) >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 16:13:17 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:13:17 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 11:37 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >I have no problem with the preposition--it's the two nouns (and perhaps the >verb) that bother me. "X spotted from Y" has certain restrictions on X and >Y. The restriction is violated on X and Y does not fit the narrative >(although it fits the restriction)--unless, that is, a reporter identified >the scandal on the spot (and named it) while peering from inside a grill. I don't have a problem with the nouns (as well as the preposition). ' "Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ ' means to me ' "Choppergate" scandal identified via BBQ '. Although I likely would postpone understanding it until I'd read the story. >As for the second--it's called "fence", live with it. Monty doesn't, if you read him regularly. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 17:32:41 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:32:41 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: <201108291611.p7TFBqY4014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Can one be half half-witted? Or would that be twice half-witted? Glad someone's paying attention... VS-) On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > "Completely half-witted"?? > > Is my wit half-full or half empty? > DanG > > > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > > > PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. > > Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that it > > might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not > > completely half-witted. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 18:01:19 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:01:19 -0700 Subject: for portmanteau lovers Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/porta-festation/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 18:13:40 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:13:40 -0700 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291529.p7TFBqLs014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:29 AM, i wrote: > for complex historical reasons, verbs in -EFY (only a few of which are at all common) have derived nouns in -EFACTION: > liquefaction, putrefaction, rarefaction, stupefaction. > plus: satisfaction (satisy), petrifaction (petrify). and rarifaction as a variant of rarefaction. > > then: -IFY verbs normally have derived nouns in -IFICATION, so there's pressure to bring these odd ones into line, and in fact all of them have -IFICATION variants. for petrifaction, NOAD2 lists petrification as just a variant (and i prefer it, despite the title of George Bernard Shaw's silly one-act play, "Passion, Poison, and Petrifaction"). for the rest, -IFICATION is a non-standard variant, but very very common (in ghits): > liquification, putrification, rarification, stupification; even satisfication. to complete the spelling complications, all of the following in -EFICATION are attested, most in substantial numbers: liquefication, putrefication, rarefication, petrefication, stupefication (these have the E of the -EFY verb, but the regular -FICATION rather than the exceptional -FACTION) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 18:38:28 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:38:28 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _voluntell_ Message-ID: Ex-GI from TN: "I didn't *want* to leave you! I was _*voluntold*_ to go back to Iraq!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 29 19:03:56 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:03:56 -0700 Subject: Lo mein (1957) Message-ID: A common-enough dish now, Google Books claims a citation in 1947, though the sentence is not given. The next citation appears to be 1957, and more citations begin to appear in the 1960s. Chinese restaurant menus would likely turn up more. Wikipedia has 撈麵/捞面 with lou1 min6 as the Cantonese pronunciation. The AHD online has "a Chinese dish of thin noodles stir-fried with vegetables andusually meat or shrimp" though it claims 1970-75 as the date of origin. Merriam-Webster.com has "a Chinese dish consisting of sliced vegetables, soft noodles, and usually meat or shrimp in bite-size pieces stir-fried in a seasoned sauce" with 1970 as the first known use. The online OED does not list it. 1. 1947 - http://ow.ly/6fNs2 "Classic One-Dish Meals," Family Circle, Amo Press 2. 1957 - http://ow.ly/6fO5A "Cue: the weekly magazine of New York life," Cue Publishing Co., page 23 ----- Such dishes as lo mein and lobster yak soong are on the menu and there are family dinners. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 20:58:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:58:01 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and "completely dimwitted" just sounded wrong--what's NOT completely dimwitted? VS-) PS: ;-) On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:32 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Can one be half half-witted? Or would that be twice half-witted? Glad > someone's paying attention... > > VS-) > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> >> "Completely half-witted"?? >> >> Is my wit half-full or half empty? >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, victor steinbok >> wrote: >> > >> > PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. >> > Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that >> it >> > might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not >> > completely half-witted. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 22:14:45 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:14:45 -0400 Subject: Lyric: _shortage_ = "short circuit" Message-ID: I can't stay on your life support There's a _shortage_ in the switch in "Just Like A Pill" written by Aleicia Beth "P!nk" Moore and Dallas Austin "Shortage" in place of "short circuit" strikes me as rare. I know it only because it was used down home, in NE TX. OTOH, P!nk is from Doylestown, in SE *PA*. So, as usual, Youneverknow. FWIW, P!nk also uses, as heard on VH1's Behind The Music, "I _told_ her _said_ 'You were my inspiration!'" et sim. My wife isn't familiar with either of these. Of course, she's from *North*east PA. That may explain it. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 23:15:55 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:15:55 -0400 Subject: OT: Heard on Judge Greg Mathis's show: "Racism!" Message-ID: Early-thirty-ish white, female speaker, WRT to her accuser, eadem: "She's a racist. She's even a member of the Klan! … Why, on her Facebook page, she wrote, 'Barack Obama has screwed more people than Tiger Woods'!" Judge Greg, a colored fellow, laughed so hard that tears came into his eyes. Later, he reprised the one-liner, laughed some more, and commented that joking isn't inherently racist, "especially if it's funny!" IMO, the joke's pretty lame. OTOH, suddenly attempting to make heretofore empty and practically non-occurrent words like _tar-baby_ and _critter_ into "racist slurs" is even lamer, a tremendous waste of psychic energy. Like, there's not sufficient genuine racism already in existence? Deal with that! There's no need to hunt everywhere in an effort to discover more of its supposed manifestations, while continuing simply to ignore the real ones. E.g., I wouldn't be surprised to discover white writers saying that they would never have begun to concern themselves with trivialities like "tar-baby" and "critters," if the African-Americans themselves hadn't made a big deal out of them. BTW, there a new, online dating service that advertises itself as catering to "black" singles. Can you believe it?! I'm simply astounded! I'm starting a petition at Change.org asking that these people use the long-since-become-politically-correct "African-American" in place of the antiquated-at-best, racist-at-worst "black." I assume that I have the support of everyone here in this extremely-worthy, bleeding-heart-liberal, anti-racism-ly endeavor. As Richard Pryor stated unequivocally, nearly forty years ago (edited): "I'm not black! I'm [African-American]!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 07:11:43 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:11:43 -0400 Subject: baby bump Message-ID: Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. OED is mum on the subject, of course. Wiki is the only dictionary that has anything to say on the subject (and it needs editing--I mean, tummy? seriously?): (informal) The swelling of a woman's tummy in the latter stages of > pregnancy. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 30 07:31:25 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 00:31:25 -0700 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: <201108300711.p7U6N2I8014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Your message seems to have gotten across. A change dated today brings the Wiktionary entry to: (informal) visible signs of pregnancy, noticeable abdominal swelling in a pregnant woman; freq. used in tabloid coverage of celebrities. BB On Aug 30, 2011, at 12:11 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular > expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press > as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a > couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, > the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. OED is mum on the > subject, of course. > > Wiki is the only dictionary that has anything to say on the subject (and it > needs editing--I mean, tummy? seriously?): > > (informal) The swelling of a woman's tummy in the latter stages of >> pregnancy. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 30 07:43:54 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:43:54 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:11:43AM -0400, victor steinbok wrote: > Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular > expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press > as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a > couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, > the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. OED is mum on the > subject, of course. Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 08:22:29 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 04:22:29 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: <201108300744.p7TKFtwg005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > > Draft additions March 2007 > colloq. (orig. Brit.). The protruding abdomen of a visibly pregnant > woman; (hence) an unborn child. Fair. Should "baby bump" be added as a variant? VS-) On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 30 09:17:03 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:17:03 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: <201108300744.p7TKFtwg005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:11:43AM -0400, victor steinbok wrote: >> Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular >> expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press >> as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a >> couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, >> the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. Check the archive for discussion in early '08. Lynne Murphy had it as the BrE-to-AmE Word of the Year on her Separated by a Common Language blog. http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2008/01/2007s-words-of-year.html >> OED is mum on the subject, of course. > > Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. And Oxford Dictionaries Online added "baby bump" in its May 2011 batch of new entries. http://oxforddictionaries.com/search?newWord=New%20words:%20May%202011 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 30 10:32:19 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:32:19 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 04:22:29AM -0400, victor steinbok wrote: > > > > Draft additions March 2007 > > colloq. (orig. Brit.). The protruding abdomen of a visibly pregnant > > woman; (hence) an unborn child. > > > Fair. Should "baby bump" be added as a variant? It would need to go in as a separate entry, it couldn't be a variant. But it's on the list. Jesse Sheidlower OED > VS-) > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > > > Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > OED > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 13:14:21 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:14:21 -0400 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation Message-ID: Several list members have blogs or participate on blogs that are popular. I have noticed for many months that text is extracted from my blog and copied to other websites. These are primarily spammish websites designed to fool the Google page rank algorithm by manipulating content and links. But I just noticed a phenomenon that is new to me. An entire post on my blog was duplicated on another website. Next, a group of twitter users started to tweet about the duplicate webpage. I believe that each one of these twitter users is a spambot with fake profile and a fake picture. The construction of the twitter agents and the tweets themselves are probably automated. This tweeting could have been done in a way that would have been largely invisible to me, but I discovered it was happening because the tweets actually mentioned the name of my blog. The goal may be to improve the page rank of the duplicate webpage. Is this happening to the blogs of other list members? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 14:48:09 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:48:09 +0800 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291813.p7TFBqBq014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for these clear explanations! Randy On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:29 AM, i wrote: > >> for complex historical reasons, verbs in -EFY (only a few of which are at all common) have derived nouns in -EFACTION: >> liquefaction, putrefaction, rarefaction, stupefaction. >> plus: satisfaction (satisy), petrifaction (petrify). � and rarifaction as a variant of rarefaction. >> >> then: -IFY verbs normally have derived nouns in -IFICATION, so there's pressure to bring these odd ones into line, and in fact all of them have -IFICATION variants. � for petrifaction, NOAD2 lists petrification as just a variant (and i prefer it, despite the title of George Bernard Shaw's silly one-act play, "Passion, Poison, and Petrifaction"). � for the rest, -IFICATION is a non-standard variant, but very very common (in ghits): >> liquification, putrification, rarification, stupification; even satisfication. > > to complete the spelling complications, all of the following in -EFICATION are attested, most in substantial numbers: > > liquefication, putrefication, rarefication, petrefication, stupefication > > (these have the E of the -EFY verb, but the regular -FICATION rather than the exceptional -FACTION) > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 30 17:28:12 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:28:12 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [ADS-L] batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" Message-ID: As of now I am left only with the supposition that my "batter [that] was half a quarter high as light as a feather and as white as snow" is merely a literal reference to an eighth of some unspecified (but presumably well known to cake- and pastry-makers) unit of length. I think it's not an eighth of an inch (too small) but some longer unit -- perhaps a hand? A unit of measure generally ... er, easily at hand while making pastry. :-) P.S. Separately, I am sending a question about "eighth" and the OED. Joel From: "Joel S. Berson" >I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: > >"One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry >and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as >light as a feather and as white as snow." > >Googling tells me that Sarah Orne Jewett wrote "and preferred an >Indian pudding to pie crust that was, without exaggeration, half a >quarter high." > >A book on Texas court cases has "The sun was about half a quarter >high when the defendant left the witness." > >"On either side of the seams at the bottom of the cap one sees the >black and white stripes attached to and at the sides of the black >neck-pieces; and the border round the bottom of the cap, which is >just under half a quarter high," From a Swedish (?) journal, 1953. > >I also find "The Womens shooes are half a quarter high at the heel, >set on with little nails, in so much that they can hardly go in >them." This is in "The voyages and travells of the ambassadors sent >by Frederick Duke of Holstein ...", by Adam Olearius (1669). > >So this can't be a literal reference to the size of a U.S. quarter. > >What does "half a quarter high" mean? A reference to an eighth of >some unspecified unit? (But for both the sun and pies/shoes?) Or >something metaphorical? > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 30 17:51:41 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:51:41 -0400 Subject: "eighth" and the OED Message-ID: The OED's entry on "eighth, adj. and n." can be read, from the absence of quotations, as implying that "eighth" alone as a fraction of something (as contrasted with the ordinal use, "eighth" in a series) might not have come into use until around 1840. An 1842 quotation is in B.n.1.a, "eighth part n. one of eight equal parts into which a quantity may be divided." "Eighth part" (sense A.2) does appear earlier than 1840s (quotations from 1523 to 1660), but in the quotations always with the word "part" present, and always without the final "h". And in B.n.1.a, the earlier quotations there (1557, 1747) use "eight", not "eighth". Is that correct -- "eighth" alone as a fraction of something is as late as the 1840s? Or should I take the "eight" in the early B.n.1.a (part of something) quotes as simply a spelling variant of "eighth"? Should "eighth" as a fraction be given a place equal in prominence to A.1.a. "That comes next in order to the seventh" (that is, the ordinal)? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 30 19:44:06 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:44:06 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just heard an instance of what the OED terms the "now arch. and dial." pronunciation of this verb, as above, in a traditional ballad, "Poor Ellen Smith" (this version sung by Wilma Lee Cooper). In the relevant verse, "strew" would rhyme perfectly with "goes" if it weren't for the latter's inflection: Some day he'll go home And stay when he goes On poor Ellen's grave Pretty flowers he will strew ["strow"] Curiously, none of the several disparate web-compiled versions of the lyrics of this ballad (which deals with a loafer who was convicted, possibly wrongfully, of the eponymous Ms. Smith's brutal murder) include this verse or the line "flowers he will strew", a string which in fact shows up in Google only once, in a plot summary for Shakespeare's _Cymbeline_. I probably wouldn't have noticed the line myself if we hadn't had this recent thread initiated by Wilson (and Springer's guest). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Aug 30 21:48:32 2011 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:48:32 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108301944.p7UAmXYr012039@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED has this as from OE streawian (or streowian). The [stroU] pronunciations come from forms with the diphthong stressed on the second element; any /j/ ghost of the first would disappear after the /r/; Stress-shift, helped by the palatal before, like this also happened for show (cf. earlier shew); sew; and dialectally, ewe and shrew, which give forms from ME /Ou/ in the North of England, Scotland, and the Southwest of England. But there is no general rule telling you what words have /ju/ and what words /oU/ or the like, even on the other side of the pool---Scots can have /Su/ for sew but /j^U/ for ewe (/stru/ sounds good to me, but I suspect many guid aul-fashiont Scots dialects have /str^U/. As for chew, forget it! Chew, chow, and chaw all exist, even over here. Knowing Early Middle English vowel classes doesn't help either: sew had /iu/ (like stew, yew); chew and ewe, /eu/ (like new, brew, and past tenses like blew, knew); show, shrew and strew, /Eu/ (like dew). It! does seem that a preceding palatal, or sometimes /r/, helps the stress shift. But screw, from French, doesn't alternate like this, so you can't scrow something (or someone).,.;;;;; Paul Johnston On Aug 30, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just heard an instance of what the OED terms the "now arch. and dial." pronunciation of this verb, as above, in a traditional ballad, "Poor Ellen Smith" (this version sung by Wilma Lee Cooper). In the relevant verse, "strew" would rhyme perfectly with "goes" if it weren't for the latter's inflection: > > Some day he'll go home > And stay when he goes > On poor Ellen's grave > Pretty flowers he will strew ["strow"] > > Curiously, none of the several disparate web-compiled versions of the lyrics of this ballad (which deals with a loafer who was convicted, possibly wrongfully, of the eponymous Ms. Smith's brutal murder) include this verse or the line "flowers he will strew", a string which in fact shows up in Google only once, in a plot summary for Shakespeare's _Cymbeline_. I probably wouldn't have noticed the line myself if we hadn't had this recent thread initiated by Wilson (and Springer's guest). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Tue Aug 30 21:55:51 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:55:51 -0700 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet Message-ID: I found it odd that "sleaze" and "smut" made the list. I always thought these to be rather mild terms, almost euphemistic. And, of course, "smut" has non-prurient meanings. Apparently students will be blocked from corresponding about research on crop diseases. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 30 23:19:07 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:19:07 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 30, 2011, at 5:48 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > OED has this as from OE streawian (or streowian). The [stroU] pronunciations come from forms with the diphthong stressed on the second element; any /j/ ghost of the first would disappear after the /r/; Stress-shift, helped by the palatal before, like this also happened for show (cf. earlier shew); sew; and dialectally, ewe and shrew, which give forms from ME /Ou/ in the North of England, Scotland, and the Southwest of England. But there is no general rule telling you what words have /ju/ and what words /oU/ or the like, even on the other side of the pool---Scots can have /Su/ for sew but /j^U/ for ewe (/stru/ sounds good to me, but I suspect many guid aul-fashiont Scots dialects have /str^U/. As for chew, forget it! Chew, chow, and chaw all exist, even over here. Knowing Early Middle English vowel classes doesn't help either: sew had /iu/ (like stew, yew); chew and ewe, /eu/ (like new, brew, and past tenses like blew, knew); show, shrew and strew, /Eu/ (like dew). ! It! > does seem that a preceding palatal, or sometimes /r/, helps the stress shift. > > But screw, from French, doesn't alternate like this, so you can't scrow something (or someone).,.;;;;; > > Paul Johnston Nice to know there's no relation between "escrow" and "screw", despite the occasional shady real estate deal… LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Aug 31 04:22:59 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 00:22:59 -0400 Subject: "lipstick lesbian" (1972?) Message-ID: Michael Sharp (known to crossword fans as Rex Parker) has a blog called Pop Sensation that showcases pulp paperbacks, mostly from the '50s and '60s. He recently featured "Take a Lesbian to Lunch" by Ann Aldrich (McFadden Books, 1972): http://salmongutter.blogspot.com/2011/08/paperback-446-take-lesbian-to-lunch-ann.html Also in this Huffington Post slideshow: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-sharp/pulp-novel-covers_b_937147.html?ref=fb&src=sp#s339832&title=Take_a_Lesbian Michael says he was told that the book has the first known print appearance of "lipstick lesbian". OED (Aug. 2001 draft addition) only dates it to 1984. The author herself (whose real name is Marijane Meaker and also goes by M.E. Kerr) discusses the phrase here: http://www.mekerr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=211 "An e-mail advised me that I didn't coin the term lipstick lesbian, it was a popular expression among 'the ladies' but I may have been the first one to put it in print." Since the book is exceedingly rare (and isn't viewable on Google Books), I've emailed Michael to ask for a cite. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Aug 31 10:34:36 2011 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:34:36 +0100 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation Message-ID: I'm not sure which of these you're talking about--and I haven't experience of the Twitter publicity for the duplications of my posts--but I have experienced: Lots of pages that seem to act kind of like RSS feeds on a particular topic. E.g. ESL. Like this one: There, it serves as a mirror for your blog, with a link back to it. Then there are the people who just steal your material. And then deny it. This happened to me with a cooking site that just copied my piece on 'high tea' (links and all) and another that may or may not have copied parts of my piece on cuts of meat (that one would've been found a 'minor' case of plagiarism at my university; 40 lashes with a wet noodle). Are you signed up to any blog syndication things, like BlogBurst? That can be another way in which your stuff gets re-posted, though I don't know much about how it works. I recently had mail from a Chicago-based 'communications' company, asking if they could post something of mine, with credit. It was nice of them to ask, but their utter lack of professional communicative competence in their emails made me decide I didn't want to be associated with them. I mean, if you can't even manage a greeting in your email when you're asking someone for something... Hope that helps. Lynne --On 30 August 2011 14:14 +0100 Garson O'Toole wrote: > Several list members have blogs or participate on blogs that are > popular. I have noticed for many months that text is extracted from my > blog and copied to other websites. These are primarily spammish > websites designed to fool the Google page rank algorithm by > manipulating content and links. > > But I just noticed a phenomenon that is new to me. An entire post on > my blog was duplicated on another website. Next, a group of twitter > users started to tweet about the duplicate webpage. I believe that > each one of these twitter users is a spambot with fake profile and a > fake picture. The construction of the twitter agents and the tweets > themselves are probably automated. > > This tweeting could have been done in a way that would have been > largely invisible to me, but I discovered it was happening because the > tweets actually mentioned the name of my blog. The goal may be to > improve the page rank of the duplicate webpage. > > Is this happening to the blogs of other list members? Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics Director of English Language and Linguistics School of English Arts B348 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 11:42:36 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:42:36 -0400 Subject: oxymoron = 'redundancy; tautology' Message-ID: Three highly-paid CNN anchors ask, "Are conservative women unfairly stereotyped?" They discuss it. Then: Anchor 1: One of our viewers points out that "unfairly stereotyped" is an oxymoron. Anchor 2 [amazed]: Right! Anchor 1: Because most stereotypes *are* unfair! Anchors 1, 2, and 3: Hm! Huh! Ha! JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 12:25:51 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:25:51 -0400 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation In-Reply-To: <8924FD318189EE9F2CA22822@aeng005114.english.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks for your informative response Lynne Murphy. Here are some details to help further explain what happened. On August 25 I posted my exploration of the amusing quotation "Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy; here is a link: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/25/creative-minds/ The post was 920 words long and the full text was duplicated on a website that uses a template for a pseudo-publication called "cpa review". The content was copied but not the pictures or formatting. The "cpa review" website appears to be a conglomeration of duplicated data. I would guess that it has been constructed by an automated process that uses keyword searches to select pages to copy. Below is the link, but I would not recommend visiting this type of website unless you are surfing in a defensive mode with a plug-in like "No script". http://www.cpareviews.info/creative-minds-are-rarely-tidy-quote-investigator.html Further below are a group of tweets that appeared on August 26. The bit.ly link in the tweets points to the webpage on the cpareviews.info website. The names of the tweeters look like they might have been constructed using a formal grammar. This manipulation of twitter is new to me, but different forms of twitter spam have existed for a few years now. I only started to monitor twitter when I noticed incoming traffic. A reporter from ABC News and one from the Wall Street Journal tweeted links to my blog. The search facility provided by twitter is somewhat clever. It automatically expands shortlinks so you can search inside them for web addresses http://twitter.com/#!/search-home Here are the fake twitterers: fritterers? (PCWorld on Feb 15, 2009 gave "Phweeters (phony tweeters)") Jonahtanaln Jonahtan Mcgaha Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator bit.ly/r6I4Xz accountant new york ;P 26 Aug Ery Dwelley Erybwa Ery Dwelley ;) bit.ly/r6I4Xz Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator accountant new york 26 Aug Oisseau Herlocker Oisseautpl Oisseau Herlocker bit.ly/r6I4Xz :O accountant new york Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug Yeritza Glendenning Yeritzapov Yeritza Glendenning accountant new york bit.ly/r6I4Xz Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug Fredy Bowne Fredyqec Fredy Bowne bit.ly/r6I4Xz :P accountant new york Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug Lourdes Kratzke Lourdeskja Lourdes Kratzke Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator . accountant new york bit.ly/r6I4Xz 26 Aug Jhoana Stanback Jhoanasqi Jhoana Stanback bit.ly/r6I4Xz ;O accountant new york Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 12:48:20 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:48:20 -0400 Subject: headline Message-ID: Not quite a crash blossom, but quite a convoluted headline in a blawg post: http://goo.gl/ldeSu Federal judge dismisses disciplinary and sanctions proceeding against lawyers initiated by U.S. District Judge John McBryde How common is serialization of different parts of speech attached to a common head? (disciplinary and sanctions proceeding) And what kind of secret society did Judge McBryde initiate those lawyers into? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 15:48:51 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:48:51 -0400 Subject: "gink"? Message-ID: A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5896 [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" CD] One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. One day as I was turning all to my native vale, I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I assume = 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon…but one (see below). The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: Etymology: Of obscure origin. slang (orig. U.S.). A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. [etc.] Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a local British sense within the song. There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK = 'Green Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various more specific slurs (gink = pejorative for someone of Indian descent) are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the example provided: 13. gink 28 up, 47 down Money, currency. Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 16:32:55 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:32:55 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311549.p7VAklgw016066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The link below points to a book in GB titled "English far and wide: a festschrift for Inna Koskenniemi …" The word chink is used instead of gink, and the annotation [money] is given. The snippet GB displays shows the relevant text. His mill I rattled round, I ground his grits [millstones] so clean; I eased him of his chink [money] in gathering broom so green. http://books.google.com/books?id=AkYRAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor The GB book "Sing out, Volume 38" also uses chink and says that "chink is money." http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=%22his+chink%22#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor I make no claims about the quality of information in these books. On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: "gink"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses = > below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute = > de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman = > who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. > > http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3D5896 > [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" = > CD] > > > One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, > I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; > He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. > > One day as I was turning all to my native vale, > I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; > His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. > > Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is = > clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give = > up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I = > assume =3D 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon=85but one = > (see below). > > The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: > > Etymology: Of obscure origin. > slang (orig. U.S.). > > A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) > 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these = > ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. > [etc.] > > Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a = > local British sense within the song. > > There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English = > Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the = > acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK =3D 'Green = > Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on = > urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various = > more specific slurs (gink =3D pejorative for someone of Indian descent) = > are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite = > all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the = > example provided: > > 13. gink 28 up, 47 down > Money, currency. > Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! > > Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? > > LH= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 16:54:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:54:38 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311633.p7VFGssm008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: All six copies of "The Besom Maker" in the Bodleian Library's broadside collection have "gink." The earliest date is some time from 1819 through 1844. I've never seen "gink" used in this way. If I had to guess, I'd guess that the once very common "chink" was intended, via a voiced pronunciation like "jink" and {g} for {j}. Unlikely, but maybe no less unlikely than that a genuine "gink" ('money') existed more or less independently of "chink." That there are six copies produced by at least three printers doesn't mean anything: the printers copied each other's ballads ad lib. The song looks like it was inspired by the title and refrain of Burns's "Buy Broom Besoms," about a broom-seller looking for a wife. That contains neither "gink" nor "chink." JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The link below points to a book in GB titled "English far and wide: a > festschrift for Inna Koskenniemi …" The word chink is used instead of > gink, and the annotation [money] is given. The snippet GB displays > shows the relevant text. > > His mill I rattled round, I ground his grits [millstones] so clean; > I eased him of his chink [money] in gathering broom so green. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=AkYRAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > > The GB book "Sing out, Volume 38" also uses chink and says that "chink > is money." > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=%22his+chink%22#search_anchor > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > I make no claims about the quality of information in these books. > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: "gink"? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses = > > below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute > = > > de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman = > > who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. > > > > http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3D5896 > > [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" = > > CD] > > > > > > One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, > > I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; > > He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, > > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. > > > > One day as I was turning all to my native vale, > > I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; > > His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, > > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. > > > > Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is > = > > clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give > = > > up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I = > > assume =3D 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon=85but one = > > (see below). > > > > The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: > > > > Etymology: Of obscure origin. > > slang (orig. U.S.). > > > > A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) > > 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these > = > > ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. > > [etc.] > > > > Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a = > > local British sense within the song. > > > > There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English = > > Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the = > > acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK =3D 'Green = > > Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on = > > urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various = > > more specific slurs (gink =3D pejorative for someone of Indian descent) = > > are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite > = > > all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the = > > example provided: > > > > 13. gink 28 up, 47 down > > Money, currency. > > Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! > > > > Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? > > > > LH= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 17:16:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:16:56 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Garson. I didn't think of a connection with "chink", which the OED does track: CHINK n., 3 4. A humorous colloquial term for money in the form of coin; ready cash. Exceedingly common in the dramatists and in songs of the 17th c.; now rather slangy or vulgar. Farmer & Henley not only give this sense but illustrate it with cites from Shakespeare "He that can lay hold of her Shall have the chinks"--Romeo and Juliet I.v) and Jonson that are absent from the OED entry. Further, F&H include a second sense, 'the female pudendum'. (Not that it's the female pudendum of which the squire and miller are eased by the besom maker.) Presumably this latter sense relates not to the onomatopoeic CHINK n., 3 above but rather represents the OED's n., 2 entry, 'a fissure, cleft, crack'. Under F&H's extensive list of synonyms under CREAM ('the seminal fluid') can be seen neither "gink" nor "chink", but we do find "chink-stopper". LH On Aug 31, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The link below points to a book in GB titled "English far and wide: a > festschrift for Inna Koskenniemi …" The word chink is used instead of > gink, and the annotation [money] is given. The snippet GB displays > shows the relevant text. > > His mill I rattled round, I ground his grits [millstones] so clean; > I eased him of his chink [money] in gathering broom so green. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=AkYRAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > > The GB book "Sing out, Volume 38" also uses chink and says that "chink > is money." > > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=%22his+chink%22#search_anchor > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > I make no claims about the quality of information in these books. > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: "gink"? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses >> below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute >> de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman >> who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. >> >> http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3D5896 >> [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" >> CD] >> >> >> One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, >> I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; >> He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, >> I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. >> >> One day as I was turning all to my native vale, >> I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; >> His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, >> I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. >> >> Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is >> clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give >> up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I >> assume = 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon=85but one >> (see below). >> >> The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: >> >> Etymology: Of obscure origin. >> slang (orig. U.S.). >> >> A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) >> 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these >> ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. >> [etc.] >> >> Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a >> local British sense within the song. >> >> There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English >> Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the >> acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK = 'Green >> Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on >> urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various >> more specific slurs (gink =3D pejorative for someone of Indian descent) >> are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite >> all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the >> example provided: >> >> 13. gink 28 up, 47 down >> Money, currency. >> Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! >> >> Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? >> >> LH= >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 19:01:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:01:41 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311717.p7VGu4KV007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ... it's the female pudendum _of which_ the squire and miller are eased by the besom maker. "by which"? "with which"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 19:13:06 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:13:06 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ... it's the female pudendum _of which_ the squire and miller are eased by the besom maker. > > "by which"? "with which"? > Touché. ;-) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 19:32:20 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:32:20 -0400 Subject: One happy language! Message-ID: FWIW: http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.5192. Support for the Pollyanna Hypothesis, if you're willing to buy it. (Wonder if the U. of Vermont responses would have been different post-Irene…) A summary on The Scientist: http://the-scientist.com/2011/08/31/the-happiness-of-english/ The Happiness of English There are more positive words than negative ones in the written English language. By Jef Akst | August 31, 2011 Across books, songs, even news publications and social media sites, positive words are used more commonly than negative ones, according to a new study published Monday (August 29) on arXiv, an online prepublication site widely used in the physical sciences. Hypotheses regarding the reasons language evolved as it did are varied, including purely practical explanations such as coordinating social behaviors, like hunting, and more cultural explanations, like the support of altruism and cooperation. The answer, some anthropologists believe, may be found in the language itself. In one of the most comprehensive analyses of the English language to date, mathematicians from Cornell University and the University of Vermont collated more than 10,000 words from four sources of text—Google Books, Twitter, The New York Times, and song lyrics. The words were scored on a scale of 1 to 9, with 1 being the most negative and 9 being the most positive. (The highest score was awarded to “laughter,” which received an 8.5, while “terrorist” received the lowest, coming it at 1.3, according to Wired Science.) Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative ones, suggesting “a positivity bias” in the language, the authors wrote. “In our stories and writings we tend toward pro-social communication.” They added that future work is needed to determine the “positivity” of other languages and dialects, as well as the trends towards other emotions. Comparing the results could reveal interesting correlations between language characteristics and aspects of societal organization in different cultures around the world. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From imwitty at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 19:54:16 2011 From: imwitty at GMAIL.COM (imwitty) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:54:16 -0700 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation In-Reply-To: <201108301314.p7UAmXqJ012039@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like this is going for YEARS. Google recently started an investigation and asks affected bloggers to provide some information. See this article at Search Engine Watch: http://bit.ly/pafxLL. Lora On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Several list members have blogs or participate on blogs that are > popular. I have noticed for many months that text is extracted from my > blog and copied to other websites. These are primarily spammish > websites designed to fool the Google page rank algorithm by > manipulating content and links. > > But I just noticed a phenomenon that is new to me. An entire post on > my blog was duplicated on another website. Next, a group of twitter > users started to tweet about the duplicate webpage. I believe that > each one of these twitter users is a spambot with fake profile and a > fake picture. The construction of the twitter agents and the tweets > themselves are probably automated. > > This tweeting could have been done in a way that would have been > largely invisible to me, but I discovered it was happening because the > tweets actually mentioned the name of my blog. The goal may be to > improve the page rank of the duplicate webpage. > > Is this happening to the blogs of other list members? > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- L. ----------------------------------------------------- Please reply to imwitty at gmail.com ----------------------------------------------------- This e-mail is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 19:58:35 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:58:35 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108311932.p7VJR27w016066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative ones, suggesting a positivity bias in the language, the authors wrote. It doesn't occur to these fools that their sources may have a stylistic bias toward happy talk? What if they'd added a few Victorian pop songs like "The Vacant Chair" and "Who Will Care for Mother Now?" "More than 10,000 words." Wow! That's even more than in a term paper. I am soooo impressed! JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: One happy language! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > FWIW: http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.5192. Support for the Pollyanna = > Hypothesis, if you're willing to buy it. (Wonder if the U. of Vermont = > responses would have been different post-Irene=85) > > A summary on The Scientist: > http://the-scientist.com/2011/08/31/the-happiness-of-english/ > > The Happiness of English > There are more positive words than negative ones in the written English = > language. > > By Jef Akst | August 31, 2011 > > Across books, songs, even news publications and social media sites, = > positive words are used more commonly than negative ones, according to a = > new study published Monday (August 29) on arXiv, an online = > prepublication site widely used in the physical sciences. > > Hypotheses regarding the reasons language evolved as it did are varied, = > including purely practical explanations such as coordinating social = > behaviors, like hunting, and more cultural explanations, like the = > support of altruism and cooperation. The answer, some anthropologists = > believe, may be found in the language itself. > > In one of the most comprehensive analyses of the English language to = > date, mathematicians from Cornell University and the University of = > Vermont collated more than 10,000 words from four sources of text=97Google= > Books, Twitter, The New York Times, and song lyrics. The words were = > scored on a scale of 1 to 9, with 1 being the most negative and 9 being = > the most positive. (The highest score was awarded to =93laughter,=94 = > which received an 8.5, while =93terrorist=94 received the lowest, coming = > it at 1.3, according to Wired Science.) > > Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative = > ones, suggesting =93a positivity bias=94 in the language, the authors = > wrote. =93In our stories and writings we tend toward pro-social = > communication.=94 They added that future work is needed to determine the = > =93positivity=94 of other languages and dialects, as well as the trends = > towards other emotions. Comparing the results could reveal interesting = > correlations between language characteristics and aspects of societal = > organization in different cultures around the world. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Aug 31 20:21:26 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:21:26 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108311958.p7VJR29G016066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative > >ones, suggesting a positivity bias in the language, the authors wrote. > > It doesn't occur to these fools that their sources may have a stylistic bias > toward happy talk? What if they'd added a few Victorian pop songs like "The > Vacant Chair" and "Who Will Care for Mother Now?" > > "More than 10,000 words." Wow! That's even more than in a term paper. I am > soooo impressed! Not to dampen your skepticism, Jon, but that's 10,000 *unique* words (types, not tokens). If you look at the study, you'll see they analyzed 9 billion words from Twitter, 360 billion words from Google Books, 1 billion words from The New York Times, and 59 million words from song lyrics. Presumably enough data to overcome stylistic biases in the source material. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Wed Aug 31 20:32:02 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:32:02 -0800 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <81F8CA38-1FB8-4355-91F2-0FB4B89CBB4B@yale.edu> Message-ID: On 31 Aug 2011, at 11:32, Laurence Horn wrote: > Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative ones, suggesting “a positivity bias” in the language, the authors wrote. The thought that immediately came to mind when I saw this flash by is why anyone would do this study on one language only. What is a reasonable baseline for "happy" vs "unhappy" words? How would English compare with, say, Germanic or Romance languages? With some from very different cultural backgrounds? For me the result as reported is close to completely meaningless. Maybe that's because of the reporting, but my days are full enough with stuff I know are going to be interesting that I would not chase up the source on something that comes across as prima facie not. Chris Waigl -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 20:50:33 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:50:33 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311913.p7VFGsXo008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If I know my F & H, there's an _excellent_ chance that "gink," 'female pudendum,' is either an error or a repetition of somebody else's error. But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in the '50s, IIRC. OED dates it to '34, which just beats HDAS. But it's probably older than that: 1926-27 _The Gargoyle_ (U. of Wis. Law School) XX [GB snippet: language and typeface consistent with date]: That girl is _some_ ginch! 1936 Vincent McHugh _Caleb Catlum's America_ (N.Y.: Stackpole) 66: Fancy le Boeuf, the prettiest little ginch you could hope to see, all frills and furbelows. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> ... it's the female pudendum _of which_ the squire and miller are eased > by the besom maker. > > > > "by which"? "with which"? > > > Touché. ;-) > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 21:04:57 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:04:57 -0400 Subject: ginchy = 'hinky; leery' Message-ID: New to me: 1994 Cheryl terHorst_Daily Herald_ (Chicago) (Dec. 20) II 1 (NewspaperArchive): Everyone's a little ginchy about this one. See, it's kind of complicated. There are lots of thigh and cellulite creams on the market. 2000 Laura Bianchi in Ibid III 3 : If you're a bit ginchy about trying this product, you've probably already had it. 2003 Lorilynn Rackl in Ibid.(Oct. 27) III 1: But some physicians are ginchy about the potential long-term effects of using hormones. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 31 21:31:39 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:31:39 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312050.p7VGu4pJ007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > .... > But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. > "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in the > '50s, IIRC. -- Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 21:53:25 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:53:25 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108312021.p7VGu4j5007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wait! You mean 1 billion words on NYT and 360 billion words from GB boil down to 10000 unique words? How is that possible? It certainly sounds like there might have been some selection bias--it was just better hidden than merely picking up 10000 words from questionable sources. But, more to the point, the result of the study reflects the scale bias of the researchers--there is absolutely no indication of objectivity (nor is any possible) in ranking the words. This is simply a classic error that creeps up in most social sciences--attaching a random scale to non-quantifiable data will get you a neat numerical result, but will be totally devoid of actual meaning. Another recent classic in the same genre is UCLA Prof Tim Groseclose's book Left Turn: How Liberal Media Bias Distorts the American Mind (with Jeff Milyo), which Groseclose is peddling the last couple of days as a guest blogger on Volokh Conspiracy. Geoff Nunberg took the book apart on Language Log. http://goo.gl/AOjOc > But sand sifted statistically is still sand. If you take the trouble to > read the study carefully, it turns out to be based on unsupported, > ideology-driven premises and to raise what would it would be most polite to > describe as severe issues of data quality, however earnestly Groseclose and > Milyo crunched their numbers. The simple principle here is GIGO--no matter how nicely the numbers are tabulated. VS-) On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > Not to dampen your skepticism, Jon, but that's 10,000 *unique* words > (types, not > tokens). If you look at the study, you'll see they analyzed 9 billion words > from > Twitter, 360 billion words from Google Books, 1 billion words from The New > York > Times, and 59 million words from song lyrics. Presumably enough data to > overcome stylistic biases in the source material. > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 21:59:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:59:08 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312132.p7VJP0B0008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, would often be problematic. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > .... > > But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. > > "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in > the > > '50s, IIRC. > -- > > Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD > (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". > > (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) > > I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: > perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 22:26:43 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:26:43 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312159.p7VJP0DY008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I wish to declare I am neither a gunch or a ginch. TheGonch Sent from my iPhone On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "gink"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term > from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. > > The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended > (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. > > The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, > would often be problematic. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: "gink"? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> .... >>> But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. >>> "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in >> the >>> '50s, IIRC. >> -- >> >> Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD >> (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". >> >> (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) >> >> I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: >> perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 22:29:01 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:29:01 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108312153.p7VGu4w3007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, I suppose a genuine "positivity bias" in English would mean great publicity for our beloved language and a possible open-sesame for grant money to compare it with, say, Mandarin. The authors - all five of them - seem unable to conceive of the distinction between a happiness bias in the structure of a language (perhaps a la Sapir-Whorf) and an overall cultural preference to accentuate the positive whenever possible. As Chris and Victor observe, however, the assignment of subjective hedonometric values to individual words is, er, fraught with difficulty. Participants "rated their happiness in response to each isolation." The researchers "chose words solely on frequency of use." So, on a scale of 1 to 9, which word makes you happier: "Of" or "at"? "A" or "the"? "I" or "its"? "Beer" or "sleep"? "Hurricane" or "eruption"? If I asked you a week from now, would your ratings be the same? I see that the authors have also published on climatological and "social and biological contagion models." I'm sure there's no need for concern, however. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:53 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: One happy language! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wait! You mean 1 billion words on NYT and 360 billion words from GB boil > down to 10000 unique words? How is that possible? It certainly sounds like > there might have been some selection bias--it was just better hidden than > merely picking up 10000 words from questionable sources. But, more to the > point, the result of the study reflects the scale bias of the > researchers--there is absolutely no indication of objectivity (nor is any > possible) in ranking the words. This is simply a classic error that creeps > up in most social sciences--attaching a random scale to non-quantifiable > data will get you a neat numerical result, but will be totally devoid of > actual meaning. Another recent classic in the same genre is UCLA Prof Tim > Groseclose's book Left Turn: How Liberal Media Bias Distorts the American > Mind (with Jeff Milyo), which Groseclose is peddling the last couple of > days > as a guest blogger on Volokh Conspiracy. Geoff Nunberg took the book apart > on Language Log. > > http://goo.gl/AOjOc > > > But sand sifted statistically is still sand. If you take the trouble to > > read the study carefully, it turns out to be based on unsupported, > > ideology-driven premises and to raise what would it would be most polite > to > > describe as severe issues of data quality, however earnestly Groseclose > and > > Milyo crunched their numbers. > > > The simple principle here is GIGO--no matter how nicely the numbers are > tabulated. > > VS-) > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > > > > Not to dampen your skepticism, Jon, but that's 10,000 *unique* words > > (types, not > > tokens). If you look at the study, you'll see they analyzed 9 billion > words > > from > > Twitter, 360 billion words from Google Books, 1 billion words from The > New > > York > > Times, and 59 million words from song lyrics. Presumably enough data to > > overcome stylistic biases in the source material. > > > > --bgz > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 22:30:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:30:25 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312226.p7VKXlSe023055@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Any Scot should recognize the vowel contrast there. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I wish to declare I am neither a gunch or a ginch. > > TheGonch > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term > > from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. > > > > The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended > > (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. > > > > The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, > > would often be problematic. > > > > JL > > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > >> Subject: Re: "gink"? > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>> .... > >>> But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. > >>> "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in > >> the > >>> '50s, IIRC. > >> -- > >> > >> Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD > >> (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". > >> > >> (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) > >> > >> I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: > >> perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". > >> > >> -- Doug Wilson > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 23:27:26 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:27:26 -0400 Subject: "the Big [initial]" Message-ID: HDAS includes a number of these (e.g., "the Big D" - 'Dallas'). Here's an antedating: 1917 _The Marines Magazine_ (Dec.) 20-21: U.S.S. "Utah." ...Brothers Mace and Jordan...were presented with a gorgeous bouquet of flowers apiece just prior to the BIG "U's" departure for sea. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 23:51:45 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:51:45 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <-3221310757561878239@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I wish to declare I am neither a gunch or a ginch. > > TheGonch Well, on the bright side, if a ginch is an ectomorph and a gunch an endomorph, as sound symbolism predicts and the lexical entries seems to confirm, that would make you a mesomorph. Could be worse. --LH, who is now prepared to speculate that "gunk" derived from a term originally designating a large mess o' money > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: "gink"? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term >> from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. >> >> The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended >> (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. >> >> The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, >> would often be problematic. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: "gink"? >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>> .... >>>> But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. >>>> "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in >>> the >>>> '50s, IIRC. >>> -- >>> >>> Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD >>> (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". >>> >>> (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) >>> >>> I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: >>> perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 23:59:26 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:59:26 -0400 Subject: "the Big [initial]" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2011, at 7:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > HDAS includes a number of these (e.g., "the Big D" - 'Dallas'). > And it sports three entries for The Big O, including one for Opium as well as the one you were thinking of. Not to be confused with "The Big --Oh", as in the Big 6-Oh (for the birthday of that number), which is also listed in HDAS and which strikes me as becoming more frequently used (or maybe it's just used more frequently as a euphemism for people whose ages are tracking mine…) LH > Here's an antedating: > > 1917 _The Marines Magazine_ (Dec.) 20-21: U.S.S. "Utah." ...Brothers Mace > and Jordan...were presented with a gorgeous bouquet of flowers apiece just > prior to the BIG "U's" departure for sea. > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 07:45:00 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 03:45:00 -0400 Subject: After Discovery, State Quietly Moves to Purge N-word From Official Documents In-Reply-To: <201107310331.p6UAl6xU014650@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > What's your point? > In journals, I've been _allowed_ to use "Negro" if it's an historical usage, in quotes; but not otherwise. "Allowed"?!!! Are you fucking kidding me?!!! -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 11:39:52 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 07:39:52 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n Message-ID: Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into an even smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose. The saying above is often attributed to Winston Churchill. The earliest variant I have located is in Punch magazine in 1892. [PLDG] 1892 January 16, Punch, Confessions of a Duffer, Page 35, Column 1, Punch Publications Ltd., London. (Google Books full view) http://books.google.com/books?id=u_kCAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Golf+is+not%22#v=snippet& Almost everybody now knows that Golf is not Hockey. Nobody runs after the ball except young ladies at W-m-n! The object is to put a very small ball into a very tiny and remotely distant hole, with engines singularly ill adapted for the purpose. There are many engines. First there is the Driver, a long club, wherewith the ball is supposed to be propelled from the tee, a little patch of sand. List members have generously helped to decipher terms with missing letters in the past. I think that the term: "W-m-n" probably refers to Wimbledon the location of the oldest tennis tournament in the world which has been played since 1877. Is that plausible? Any idea why letters have been removed? Here is a link to an extended discussion of the quotation on my blog if this topic interests you: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/01/golf-small-hole/ Thanks, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 14:59:08 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 09:59:08 -0500 Subject: Richard (alias "Long Dick") Chasmore (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201107302132.p6UAuw2r016483@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Richard (alias "Long Dick") Chasmore > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > And, of course, no one at that time would have exposed > an innocent child to a double-entendre that he wouldn't get till he > was in his 30's, needless to say. > > On the other hand, Robert A. Heinlein deliberately named a teenage character in his juvenile novel "The Star Beast" John Thomas. The titular beast, Lummox, is a long-lived dragon who is the pet of John Thomas XI, and was his father's pet and his grandfather's pet before. Lummox is semi-intelligent, and believes that his job is "raising John Thomases". Heinlein's use of the name is to purposefully "get one past" his prudish editor at Scribners, Alice Dalgleish, who would strike anything in a juvenile novel that hinted of sex, violence, etc. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 15:23:40 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:23:40 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201107311959.p6VB17HI010867@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE While Pennington got the distinction between Minie- and miniballs correct, he misspelled "ordnance" as "ordinance". > > For those who might be interested, here is a letter to the editor > (Wall Street Journal, Feb. 18, 1992, p. A21/2) about how the fearsome > Civil War bullet "Minie ball" was misinterpreted as "miniball" > (title): "'Minie" A Fearful Name In Battles of Civil War" > > "Your Jan. 15 page-one article on explosive-ordinance > disposal (EOD) in Kuwait said Charles Hall, the young EOD > man you profiled, spent his youth searching for "miniballs" from > Civil War battlefields. More likely they were "Minie" balls, > named for their inventor, French officer Capt. Claude E. Minie. They had > hollow bases and conical rings and expanded enough when fired to engage the > rifling of the barrel, making the far more accurate rifle (as opposed to a > smoothbore) practical as a military weapon. > > "These were the bullets of choice in the Civil War and far from being > the teeny-weeny projectiles suggested by the article, they were a whopping > 0.58 inches in diameter, a full inch long, slow moving and heavy with a > fearful stopping power that could wrench off an arm or a leg with one shot. > They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about 500 > yards. > SAMUEL PENNINGTON > Waldoboro, Maine." > > Gerald Cohen > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 15:39:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:39:22 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: Message-ID: "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me _unprotectedly_!" Youneverknow, -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 15:54:10 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:54:10 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011523.p71Al9uf024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > While Pennington got the distinction between Minie- and miniballs > correct, he misspelled "ordnance" as "ordinance". > Not to mention that, he - probably as the consequence of a mind-fart - says that the greater the distance that the Minie ball traveled, the more likely it was that the person struck by the ball would suffer a mortal wound: "They were _effective_ to a range of about _250 yards_ and _deadly_ to about _500 yards_." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 15:58:03 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 10:58:03 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011555.p71Al90L024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE That was inartfully worded, but I took it to mean that a trained marksman could hit what he aimed at to 250 yards, but no matter where it was aimed, the bullet had sufficient kinetic energy to be deadly out to 500 yards. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Wilson Gray > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 10:54 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > (UNCLASSIFIED) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > wrote: > > While Pennington got the distinction between Minie- and miniballs > > correct, he misspelled "ordnance" as "ordinance". > > > > Not to mention that, he - probably as the consequence of a mind-fart - > says that the greater the distance that the Minie ball traveled, the > more likely it was that the person struck by the ball would suffer a > mortal wound: > > "They were _effective_ to a range of about _250 yards_ and _deadly_ to > about _500 yards_." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 16:30:59 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:30:59 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: and elsewhere: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_had_sex_unprotectedly_does_this_mean_you_are_pregnant (if you're curious, the wikianswer is essentially "Maybe") More poetically, someone asks Yahoo! Answers? [weird punctuation!]: Would you rather unprotectedly sail near sirens or into the Bermuda Triangle? while urbandictionary offers this as a definition of "unprotectedly": Sexting with a case on your phone. The case will act as a condom. YMMV. LH On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me > _unprotectedly_!" > > Youneverknow, > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 16:47:31 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:47:31 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011558.p71Al919024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Although it was initially a bit of head-scratcher, my interpretation was the same. Let me put it differently--you wouldn't use it as an assassin's weapon at 500 yards, but it would be fine if you're shooting at an attacking column--it's bound to hit and kill someone. But at 250 yards, you can actually take out officers rather than random targets. VS-) On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > > That was inartfully worded, but I took it to mean that a trained > marksman could hit what he aimed at to 250 yards, but no matter where it > was aimed, the bullet had sufficient kinetic energy to be deadly out to > 500 yards. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 17:38:24 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:38:24 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n In-Reply-To: <201108011140.p71Al9TT024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Golf has been played at Wimbledon Common since 1865, and there were conflicts between the golfers and other park users toward the end of the 19th century, and I can imagine a joke being made about young girls chasing after golf balls in the park. No clue about the "w-m-n" abbreviation, however. DanG On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:39 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing > letters W-m-n > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Golf is a game whose aim is to hit a very small ball into an even > smaller hole, with weapons singularly ill-designed for the purpose. > > The saying above is often attributed to Winston Churchill. The > earliest variant I have located is in Punch magazine in 1892. > > [PLDG] 1892 January 16, Punch, Confessions of a Duffer, Page 35, > Column 1, Punch Publications Ltd., London. (Google Books full view) > > http://books.google.com/books?id=u_kCAAAAIAAJ&q=%22Golf+is+not%22#v=snippet& > > Almost everybody now knows that Golf is not Hockey. Nobody runs after > the ball except young ladies at W-m-n! The object is to put a very > small ball into a very tiny and remotely distant hole, with engines > singularly ill adapted for the purpose. There are many engines. First > there is the Driver, a long club, wherewith the ball is supposed to be > propelled from the tee, a little patch of sand. > > > List members have generously helped to decipher terms with missing > letters in the past. I think that the term: "W-m-n" probably refers to > Wimbledon the location of the oldest tennis tournament in the world > which has been played since 1877. Is that plausible? Any idea why > letters have been removed? > > Here is a link to an extended discussion of the quotation on my blog > if this topic interests you: > > http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/01/golf-small-hole/ > > Thanks, Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 1 18:00:34 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:00:34 -0700 Subject: Qisas Message-ID: Ini an AP story by Nasser Karimi in today's Seattle Times, the word "qisas" is defined. The article says: ----- If no agreement is reached, then "qisas," or eye-for-an-eye retribution, is enforced. ----- The word does not appear in the online OED. Wiktionary has the word only as an Azeri translation of "revenge" though Wikipedia has a short article. Although the Wikipedia article has a supposed citation from 2009 from the "Phillie Metro," I can't find (without looking too hard) that publication. It appears this story may be the first mainstream use. The article "Pakistan: Women's Commission Recommends Qisas Law Be Amended" cites a publication date of April 1, 2004. The abstract "Pakistan: new forms of cruel and degrading punishment" is dated March 1, 1991: "This circular deals with the new forms of punishment recently introduced in Pakistan under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. " The source article has the term 34 times. An earlier article "Divine Law or Man-Made Law? Egypt and the Application of the Shari'a" by Rudolph Peters is dated August 1988. Google provides the quote "They have been published in Mashnxat qawartin al-qisas ws-l-diye wa-l-hudud al-shartiyya." The shortened link is http://bit.ly/oE6uAO, though JSTOR access is required to see the article, which I don't have. This seems like a handy word for describing this ancient tradition. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 1 18:21:08 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 11:21:08 -0700 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: <201108011631.p71GAeQq003659@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > and elsewhere: > > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_had_sex_unprotectedly_does_this_mean_you_are_pregnant > > (if you're curious, the wikianswer is essentially "Maybe") > > More poetically, someone asks Yahoo! Answers? [weird punctuation!]: > Would you rather unprotectedly sail near sirens or into the Bermuda Triangle? > > while urbandictionary offers this as a definition of "unprotectedly": > Sexting with a case on your phone. The case will act as a condom. > > YMMV. OED2, under "unprotected": unpro?tectedly adv. 1823 Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. 14 461 Seeing their friends massacred unprotectedly all round them. > > LH > > On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me >> _unprotectedly_!" ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 18:31:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:31:47 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: <2F2F7783-730E-4AE5-871F-E09580E98BB4@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 2:21 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Aug 1, 2011, at 9:30 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > >> and elsewhere: >> >> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_you_had_sex_unprotectedly_does_this_mean_you_are_pregnant >> >> (if you're curious, the wikianswer is essentially "Maybe") >> >> More poetically, someone asks Yahoo! Answers? [weird punctuation!]: >> Would you rather unprotectedly sail near sirens or into the Bermuda Triangle? >> >> while urbandictionary offers this as a definition of "unprotectedly": >> Sexting with a case on your phone. The case will act as a condom. >> >> YMMV. > > OED2, under "unprotected": > > unpro?tectedly adv. > 1823 Blackwood's Edinb. Mag. 14 461 Seeing their friends massacred unprotectedly all round them. But perhaps tending to be used in a more specialized way now, given the earlier euphemistic specialization of "protection". Not semantic narrowing as such (yet). LH >> >> On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> "He's my baby daddy because he's *always* been having sex with me >>> _unprotectedly_!" > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 1 19:34:42 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:34:42 -0700 Subject: Qisas In-Reply-To: <201108011800.p71Anjqr008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Google Books turns up some hits from the nineteenth century. The earliest I see is 1819, "The annals of the college of Fort William" by Thomas Roebuck: "No. 2. An exercise on the Law of Qisas or Retaliation, extracted from the Mooheeti Surukhsee" [A dot under each "s" in "Qisas," a dot under the next-to-last "h" and two under the last "t."] (http://bit.ly/oI9rjZ) Another notable citation is from 1885 in "The cyclop?dia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: commercial, industrial and scientific, products of the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms, useful arts and manufactures" by Edward Balfour: "Qisas, literally retaliation, the lex talionis of Exodus xxi. 24; but Mahomed allowed a money compensation, at the discretion of the next of kin, to the murdered person." (http://bit.ly/pbBbNR) Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 1, 2011, at 11:00 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Ini an AP story by Nasser Karimi in today's Seattle Times, the word "qisas" is defined. The article says: > > ----- > If no agreement is reached, then "qisas," or eye-for-an-eye retribution, is enforced. > ----- > > The word does not appear in the online OED. > > Wiktionary has the word only as an Azeri translation of "revenge" though Wikipedia has a short article. > > Although the Wikipedia article has a supposed citation from 2009 from the "Phillie Metro," I can't find (without looking too hard) that publication. It appears this story may be the first mainstream use. > > The article "Pakistan: Women's Commission Recommends Qisas Law Be Amended" cites a publication date of April 1, 2004. > > The abstract "Pakistan: new forms of cruel and degrading punishment" is dated March 1, 1991: "This circular deals with the new forms of punishment recently introduced in Pakistan under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. " The source article has the term 34 times. > > An earlier article "Divine Law or Man-Made Law? Egypt and the Application of the Shari'a" by Rudolph Peters is dated August 1988. Google provides the quote "They have been published in Mashnxat qawartin al-qisas ws-l-diye wa-l-hudud al-shartiyya." The shortened link is http://bit.ly/oE6uAO, though JSTOR access is required to see the article, which I don't have. > > This seems like a handy word for describing this ancient tradition. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 19:38:00 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:38:00 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011647.p71Anjlt008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 12:47 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > take out officers Certainly an admirable endeavor! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Mon Aug 1 19:39:02 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 12:39:02 -0700 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet Message-ID: "They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about 500 yards." Maybe I misunderstand, but how would a bullet that was "deadly" at 500 yards not be considered "effective" at that range? Brian Hitchcock Torrance, CA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 19:50:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:50:56 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <005801cc5082$aa953ee0$ffbfbca0$@skechers.com> Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 3:39 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > "They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about 500 > yards." > > > > Maybe I misunderstand, but how would a bullet that was "deadly" at 500 > yards not be considered "effective" at that range? > > If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would certainly be deadly, but would it be effective? I think an argument could be made either way. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 19:57:32 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:57:32 -0400 Subject: On "Maury" heard unexpectedly: In-Reply-To: <201108011831.p71Anjsb008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Laurence Horn quoted: > Seeing their friends massacred unprotectedly all round them. For me, there's something strange about _[being] massacred unprotectedly_. "[NP] massacred their friends _unprotectedly_." "Their friends were massacred _unprotectedly_." It seems very strange to me and I can't get it. Maybe it's a "Bell Curve" thing. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 1 19:58:38 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:58:38 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011939.p71Al9QF024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Because you can't aim it sufficiently well to guarantee a hit at distances of 500 yards. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Brian Hitchcock > Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 2:39 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Brian Hitchcock > Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > "They were effective to a range of about 250 yards and deadly to about > 500 > yards." > > > > Maybe I misunderstand, but how would a bullet that was "deadly" at 500 > yards not be considered "effective" at that range? > > > > Brian Hitchcock > > Torrance, CA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 20:00:09 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:00:09 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] Message-ID: eh -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 20:04:34 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:04:34 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108011958.p71JemUv024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Because you can't aim it sufficiently well to guarantee a hit at > distances of 500 yards. Nevertheless, IMO, Brian's question is valid, unless _deadly_ doesn't mean "deadly," in this context. Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 1 20:08:53 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:08:53 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -- > -Wilson > ?? There are certain party lines I can well imagine trying to tow. And tow. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 1 20:33:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:33:48 -0400 Subject: Qisas In-Reply-To: <201108011934.p71Al9PV024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Are we all using Google differently? Mine shows a lot more than just Wiki and GB. http://goo.gl/tTwbD Executions under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance > In accordance with a judge's interpretation of the punishment given as > qisas (equal punishment for the offence committed) a death sentence was to > have been executed in Swabi, North West Frontier Province, in a manner > identical with the offence. http://goo.gl/e7xEO Understanding the Qisas and Diyat laws > > This law dates back to General Zia?s Qisas and Diyat Ordinance of 1980, as > part of a cosmetic process of Islamisation that the said dictator carried > out in Pakistan to legitimise his illegal rule on the touchstone of Islam. > Zia himself had delayed the enforcement of these laws to ensure that > Zulfikar Ali Bhutto would not benefit from them. The full statement (retelling) of the law is given at the latter site. http://goo.gl/d64fO Crime and Punishment (QasAmah, QisAs, HadUd) > > The law also permits qisAs, or retaliation. It is permitted only in cases > where someone has deliberately and unjustly wounded, mutilated, or killed > another, and only if the injured and the guilty hold the same status. As > slaves and unbelievers are inferior in status to Muslims, they are not > entitled to qisAs according to most Muslim faqIhs (jurists). ... QISAS > QisAs literally means ?tracking the footsteps of an enemy?; but > technically, in Muslim law, it is retaliatory punishment, an eye for an > eye. It is the lex talionis of the Mosaic law. > A Jew smashed the head of an ansAr girl and she died. Muhammad commanded > that his head be crushed between two stones (4138). But in another case, > which involved the sister of one of the Companions, bloodwite was allowed. > She had broken someone?s teeth. When the case was brought to Muhammad, he > told her that ?QisAs [retaliation] was a command prescribed in the Book of > Allah.? She made urgent pleas and was allowed to go free after paying a > money compensation to the victim?s next of kin (4151). VS-) On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Google Books turns up some hits from the nineteenth century. The earliest I > see is 1819, "The annals of the college of Fort William" by Thomas Roebuck: > "No. 2. An exercise on the Law of Qisas or Retaliation, extracted from the > Mooheeti Surukhsee" [A dot under each "s" in "Qisas," a dot under the > next-to-last "h" and two under the last "t."] (http://bit.ly/oI9rjZ) > > Another notable citation is from 1885 in "The cyclop?dia of India and of > Eastern and Southern Asia: commercial, industrial and scientific, products > of the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms, useful arts and > manufactures" by Edward Balfour: "Qisas, literally retaliation, the lex > talionis of Exodus xxi. 24; but Mahomed allowed a money compensation, at the > discretion of the next of kin, to the murdered person." ( > http://bit.ly/pbBbNR) > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 1 22:31:36 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:31:36 -0700 Subject: Qisas In-Reply-To: <201108012033.p71Anj3Z008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There are certainly a lot more than that :) BB On Aug 1, 2011, at 1:33 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > Are we all using Google differently? Mine shows a lot more than just Wiki > and GB. > > http://goo.gl/tTwbD > Executions under the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance > >> In accordance with a judge's interpretation of the punishment given as >> qisas (equal punishment for the offence committed) a death sentence was t= > o >> have been executed in Swabi, North West Frontier Province, in a manner >> identical with the offence. > > > > http://goo.gl/e7xEO > Understanding the Qisas and Diyat laws >> >> This law dates back to General Zia=E2=80=99s Qisas and Diyat Ordinance of= > 1980, as >> part of a cosmetic process of Islamisation that the said dictator carried >> out in Pakistan to legitimise his illegal rule on the touchstone of Islam= > . >> Zia himself had delayed the enforcement of these laws to ensure that >> Zulfikar Ali Bhutto would not benefit from them. > > > The full statement (retelling) of the law is given at the latter site. > > http://goo.gl/d64fO > Crime and Punishment (QasAmah, QisAs, HadUd) >> >> The law also permits qisAs, or retaliation. It is permitted only in case= > s >> where someone has deliberately and unjustly wounded, mutilated, or killed >> another, and only if the injured and the guilty hold the same status. As >> slaves and unbelievers are inferior in status to Muslims, they are not >> entitled to qisAs according to most Muslim faqIhs (jurists). > > ... > > QISAS >> QisAs literally means =E2=80=9Ctracking the footsteps of an enemy=E2=80= > =9D; but >> technically, in Muslim law, it is retaliatory punishment, an eye for an >> eye. It is the lex talionis of the Mosaic law. >> A Jew smashed the head of an ansAr girl and she died. Muhammad commanded >> that his head be crushed between two stones (4138). But in another case, >> which involved the sister of one of the Companions, bloodwite was allowed= > . >> She had broken someone=E2=80=99s teeth. When the case was brought to Muh= > ammad, he >> told her that =E2=80=9CQisAs [retaliation] was a command prescribed in th= > e Book of >> Allah.=E2=80=9D She made urgent pleas and was allowed to go free after pa= > ying a >> money compensation to the victim=E2=80=99s next of kin (4151). > > > > VS-) > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrot= > e: > >> >> Google Books turns up some hits from the nineteenth century. The earliest= > I >> see is 1819, "The annals of the college of Fort William" by Thomas Roebuc= > k: >> "No. 2. An exercise on the Law of Qisas or Retaliation, extracted from th= > e >> Mooheeti Surukhsee" [A dot under each "s" in "Qisas," a dot under the >> next-to-last "h" and two under the last "t."] (http://bit.ly/oI9rjZ) >> >> Another notable citation is from 1885 in "The cyclop=C4=99dia of India an= > d of >> Eastern and Southern Asia: commercial, industrial and scientific, product= > s >> of the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms, useful arts and >> manufactures" by Edward Balfour: "Qisas, literally retaliation, the lex >> talionis of Exodus xxi. 24; but Mahomed allowed a money compensation, at = > the >> discretion of the next of kin, to the murdered person." ( >> http://bit.ly/pbBbNR) >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 1 23:44:43 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:44:43 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/1/2011 04:00 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >eh The canal-boat line? Joel >-- >-Wilson >----- >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >-Mark Twain > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Tue Aug 2 00:14:16 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:14:16 -0500 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: <201108012344.p71Nipdo007912@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: paul johnson The well known Camel Toe line On 8/1/2011 6:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/1/2011 04:00 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> eh > > The canal-boat line? > > Joel > > >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Blunt force trauma It's better to give than to receive. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 00:15:15 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:15:15 -0400 Subject: It's [still] alive! "_tow_ the party line" [NP] In-Reply-To: <201108012345.p71JemhD024949@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>eh There is a bug/feature in the UGA software that blocks the sending of an e-mail that is identical in content to an e-mail that one has already sent, regardless of whether the subject-line has been changed. Hence, I can send only a single message _truly_ empty of content, it being clearly the case that no empty set is distinct from any other empty set. So, even though I mark an e-mail as having "no (useful) content," that e-mail _must_ have _some_ content and that content _must_ be distinct from that of any other post that I've already sent. Otherwise, it will be bounced. Said content, however, may be pure gibberish. "There it is. Give it a name." As they say in Vietnam-era novels. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 00:40:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:40:52 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108011951.p71Anj15008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I think an argument could be made either way. You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? Do it, then. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 2 01:08:21 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 21:08:21 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 1, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> I think an argument could be made either way. > > You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes > sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards > is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? > > Do it, then. "effective" = 'achieving the intended purpose', in this case hitting the intended target "deadly" = 'resulting in death', not necessarily of the intended target My example in the earlier part of the excerpted e-mail was intended to illustrate this possibility. Let's see?yes, "If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would certainly be deadly, but would it be effective?" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 02:02:39 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:02:39 -0400 Subject: ink Message-ID: This is likely the shortest and the most common word that *I* have found to have an insufficient coverage in the OED. There are three separate noun entries, but the one of concern is ink n.1--the other two are unrelated. There is only one entry with two subentries--liquid ink and squid ink (a. and b., respectively), plus a long list of compounds. What's missing? 1. tattoo(s) 2. press coverage, published news story in a periodical 3. "to get ink" in both senses above, particularly "to get some ink"==either to have been mentioned in a news story or to get a new tattoo (see also below for "to get fresh ink" for the latter) 4. solid/powdered pigment or toner for electronic devices (including for commercial printing, which, at the moment, is only covered as "thick paste") 5. Also "dry ink" in the same sense as 4. There is a draft edition for 1997 for "ink cartridge", but not 6. ink-jet (short for 7. below) 7. ink-jet printer This is particularly odd because the last example under "ink cartridge" includes it: 1992 RS Components: Electronic & Electr. Products July?Oct. 115/1 A > replacement ink cartridge, containing a specially formulated free flowing > non-clogging ink, for the Epson SQ-2500 ink jet printer. There is also related 9. ink-jet paper 8. ink dot Also for ink v. there are two senses corresponding to 1. and 2. 9. to author/pen a story (news, feature or column)--similar to draft addition for 1993 for inking a contract/deal 10. to draw/make a tattoo (the opposite of 3. above) I'm not giving specific examples because I presume that they are fairly common. What got my attention was a comment during some TV news program concerning Nicole Richie "getting fresh ink" (a new ADDITIONAL tattoo). One compound stands out to me: ink-mushroom n. a mushroom of the genus Coprinus. I usually know this one as "ink-cap" (included under compounds) or "inky cap" ( http://goo.gl/YgZ4O -- incorporated under compounds under inky adj.), but the most common name is "Shaggy Mane" or, occasionally, "shaggy ink cap" (Coprinus comatus -- both included under shaggy adj.). One English denomination is "lawyer's wig" (listed under lawyer n.), although this could be a regionalism used in other parts of the world. One thing I have NEVER seen in contemporary mushroom literature is "ink-mushroom", although I don't discount the possibility that there are earlier references to it. The trouble is, this is one of over a dozen of compounds that have no examples attached in the article. I am sure there are a few other things I am missing. But this is all I could do in half an hour. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 02:11:24 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:11:24 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108020108.p71LTjdG003659@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nice try, Larry. But no. The writer may have been trying to say that a man shooting a rifle loaded with a Minie ball might fire accurately at 250 yards, but the ball could still be deadly at 500. That may be an understatement: Minie balls were .58-caliber, conical, and made of soft lead; in other words, huge dumdum bullets. JL On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 1, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> I think an argument could be made either way. > > > > You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes > > sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards > > is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? > > > > Do it, then. > > "effective" = 'achieving the intended purpose', in this case hitting the > intended target > "deadly" = 'resulting in death', not necessarily of the intended target > > My example in the earlier part of the excerpted e-mail was intended to > illustrate this possibility. Let's see?yes, > > "If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by > dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along > with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would certainly > be deadly, but would it be effective?" > > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 02:28:23 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 22:28:23 -0400 Subject: Ii's been happening for quite some time, now Message-ID: The NYTM July 31, 2011, p.25b "Mauricio _lay_ a rosary on the table." Somehow, I senior-momented all of the earlier examples of _laid_ reanalyzed as _lay_, before. In like manner, I may have overlooked other listers earlier noting of this phenomenon. OT: Yesterday, I heard myself ask, "Wear [are you going]" when I'd meant to say "Where [...]." Oh, well. Nothing lasts forever. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 09:04:03 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:04:03 -0400 Subject: Famous quotation about the weather in San Francisco (Duluth in 1900) and a mystery volume with restricted access in Google Books In-Reply-To: <201107131945.p6DB9hm4028535@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: George Thompson wrote: > *The life of Mr. James Quin, comedian. With the history of the stage from > his commencing actor to his retreat to Bath. L*ondon, MDCCLXVI. [1766]. > > This is in the 18th C Collections Online. The words "summer" and "july" > seem to not appear in the text; the word "winter" appears 3 or 4 times, but > not in this context. Many thanks for checking this George. This suggests that the details of the weather joke were added to the reprint of the "The Life of Mr. James Quin, Comedian" after the original 1766 publication. The Oxford Companion to Theatre and Performance says that James Quin lived from 1693 to 1766. Worldcat says that the reprint of "The Life of Mr. James Quin" was published in 1887. In the Google Books copy of "The Life of Mr. James Quin" the Supplement section begins on page 65 and the weather joke is on page 100 near the end of the volume. http://books.google.com/books?id=6FwLAAAAIAAJ&q=supplement#v=snippet& http://books.google.com/books?id=6FwLAAAAIAAJ&q=%22last+winter%22#v=snippet& The letter mentioning the joke by Quin is dated 1789 more than two decades after his death. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 09:04:43 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 05:04:43 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n In-Reply-To: <201108011738.p71AnjpD008175@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dan Goncharoff > Golf has been played at Wimbledon Common since 1865, and there were > conflicts between the golfers and other park users toward the end of > the 19th century, and I can imagine a joke being made about young > girls chasing after golf balls in the park. No clue about the "w-m-n" > abbreviation, however. Thanks for your valuable comment, Dan. A webpage providing "A Short History of the Royal Wimbledon Golf Club" states that a group of women opened a nine-hole golf course on Wimbledon Common land about six months before the article with "W-m-n" was published. http://www.rwgc.co.uk/History.aspx A Ladies Club had been in existence on Wimbledon Common, albeit with a ten year break in the 1880?s, from the earliest days. In May 1891, after 145 ladies had responded to an invitation for membership, they opened their own nine hole course on Common land rather reluctantly allocated by the Conservators and took possession of their Clubhouse, the previously derelict Thatched Cottage, restored by the men. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 11:56:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 07:56:42 -0400 Subject: ink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/1/2011 10:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >This is likely the shortest and the most common word that *I* have found to >have an insufficient coverage in the OED. Congratulations, Victor! Previously, the record for the shortest and most common words having insufficient coverage have been the four-letter words. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 12:04:15 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 08:04:15 -0400 Subject: Quotation about golf and a question about a word with missing letters W-m-n In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/2/2011 05:04 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: >Thanks for your valuable comment, Dan. A webpage providing "A Short >History of the Royal Wimbledon Golf Club" states that a group of women >opened a nine-hole golf course on Wimbledon Common land about six >months before the article with "W-m-n" was published. > >http://www.rwgc.co.uk/History.aspx > >A Ladies Club had been in existence on Wimbledon Common, albeit with a >ten year break in the 1880's, from the earliest days. In May 1891, >after 145 ladies had responded to an invitation for membership, they >opened their own nine hole course on Common land rather reluctantly >allocated by the Conservators and took possession of their Clubhouse, >the previously derelict Thatched Cottage, restored by the men. Perhaps for a while after these events, among the gentlemen of the Royal Wimbledon Golf Club "women" was a four-letter word. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Tue Aug 2 14:20:17 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:20:17 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived Message-ID: On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner in which it was arrived". The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. Neal Whitman ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 14:30:18 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:30:18 -0400 Subject: A process called "serendipity" Message-ID: In an interview on Boston radio this morning about the new method of creating innovative technologies at MIT (see subtitle of his book), with its new, open floorplans allowing teachers, students, and "sponsors" to mix freely and observe each other's ... innovations, Frank Moss said "... it's [or "in"] a process we call "serendipity' ...". I don't suppose they were able to patent it, however. And they probably can't trademark it either -- perhaps 5 different uses in Google Books, the earliest 1965. So I'm somewhat behind the times in not recognizing serendipity as a process, rather than a happenstance. Moss is author of "The Sorcerers and Their Apprentices (2011) and former director of MIT's Media Lab, but now "managing partner of Strategic Software Ventures, LLC, and a part-time professor of the practice at the MIT Media Lab, where he heads the New Media Medicine group", according to his biography on an MIT Media Lab site. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 14:34:29 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:34:29 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which Americans would (usually) not drop? Joel At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: >On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the >debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner >in which it was arrived". > >The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of >prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the >order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the >prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed >preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed >hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at >the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* >stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. > >Neal Whitman > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 15:09:53 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 11:09:53 -0400 Subject: ink In-Reply-To: <201108021156.p72AqFbp015978@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Joel. There are not enough underappreciated four-letter words to express how grateful I am for that observation. But they sound better in Russian, where they are three-letter words. Actually, this is not the first three-letter word I've commented on. There was at least one other--fob. VS-) PS: Sheesh! Can't even crack a lame joke without someone trying to upstage you ... anymore... On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/1/2011 10:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >This is likely the shortest and the most common word that *I* have found > to > >have an insufficient coverage in the OED. > > Congratulations, Victor! Previously, the record for the shortest and > most common words having insufficient coverage have been the four-letter > words. > > JSB > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 16:10:32 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:10:32 -0400 Subject: Paul Harvey and language Message-ID: Someone forwarded a link to a Snopes debunking of a particular story that has been circulating around the "intertubes" for a few years and I recognized as either being one of Paul Harvey's The Rest of the Story stories or one that was closely modeled after that template. Predictably, the story was patently untrue--as were most of Harvey's stories, including many that he reported as straight news. But let's skip speaking ill of the dead (although I spoke the same way about him when he was alive) and focus on words. Specifically, Wiki article mentions that Harvey "enriched" the English language by coining at least three famous words--skyjack[ing], Reaganomics and guesstimate. My gut reaction was that the claim--like most of Harvey's own reports--was patently false. Of course, I could be wrong. Both MWOL and Online Etymology Dictionary (OEtD) report that "skyjack" was first used in 1961, apparently coined by the NY Mirror in its headlines. As far as I know, Harvey did not work for the NY Mirror--he was a radio broadcast journalist, known more for his voice and seemless transition between news, advertising and fiction. I suppose, it is possible that Harvey coined the term which was then picked up by the Mirror, but I found no evidence of it. OEtD reports that the /noun/ "guesstimate" has been in use since 1906--hardly something that Harvey could have contributed, although that still leaves the possibility that he might have verbed it. Again, I found no records other than claims in his obituaries. Reaganomics is more recent and terminology quickly turned viral soon after inauguration (in early 1981) so I did not even try to look this one up. But I am hoping someone else might have better records on this. In any case, I just wanted to seed this investigation, as I will be traveling for the next week and won't be able to do much on this subject. I hope this is something that can be settled definitively. Good hunting! VS-) PS: A quick search on "coined Reaganomics" revealed something interesting, although not about the coinage. It seems a LOT of people use "coined" as "that someone called" or just "called". Note that the search is for two separate words, although proximity appears to push them higher in the search hierarchy. In the 1980s, Ronald Reagan and his cabinet unleashed his style of economics > that was *coined Reaganomics*. Ronald Reagan's economic policies of retrenchment, tax cuts, budget deficits > and monetarism, *coined* by the media as *Reaganomics*, had both positive > and *...* Later *coined Reaganomics*, the expectation was that reduced tax rates and > regulation would actually result in more revenue for the Government *...* A study by the libertarian CATO Institute assessed the supply-side economic > policies during the Reagan administration ? *coined* ?*Reaganomics*. This new idea *coined* '*Reaganomics*' was that the poor would now provide > for the rich. > There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for one, find this bizarre. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 16:16:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:16:22 -0400 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108021434.p72Am2Bq018715@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've noticed this phenomenon before, though only once or twice. Both times, however, were on NPR, and quite recently at that. I believe the verbs were different. My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the "preposition." Or is that too utterly absurd? JL On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which > Americans would (usually) not drop? > > Joel > > At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > >On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the > >debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner > >in which it was arrived". > > > >The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of > >prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the > >order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the > >prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed > >preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed > >hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at > >the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* > >stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. > > > >Neal Whitman > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 2 16:19:44 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:19:44 -0400 Subject: Paul Harvey and language In-Reply-To: <201108021610.p72AoLVl007836@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for one, find this bizarre. Quease-making yes, but not bizarre. I've heard this usage on TV news more than once within the past, say, three to five years. JL On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:10 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Paul Harvey and language > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Someone forwarded a link to a Snopes debunking of a particular story that > has been circulating around the "intertubes" for a few years and I > recognized as either being one of Paul Harvey's The Rest of the Story > stories or one that was closely modeled after that template. Predictably, > the story was patently untrue--as were most of Harvey's stories, including > many that he reported as straight news. But let's skip speaking ill of the > dead (although I spoke the same way about him when he was alive) and focus > on words. Specifically, Wiki article mentions that Harvey "enriched" the > English language by coining at least three famous words--skyjack[ing], > Reaganomics and guesstimate. My gut reaction was that the claim--like most > of Harvey's own reports--was patently false. Of course, I could be wrong. > > Both MWOL and Online Etymology Dictionary (OEtD) report that "skyjack" was > first used in 1961, apparently coined by the NY Mirror in its headlines. As > far as I know, Harvey did not work for the NY Mirror--he was a radio > broadcast journalist, known more for his voice and seemless transition > between news, advertising and fiction. I suppose, it is possible that > Harve= > y > coined the term which was then picked up by the Mirror, but I found no > evidence of it. OEtD reports that the /noun/ "guesstimate" has been in use > since 1906--hardly something that Harvey could have contributed, although > that still leaves the possibility that he might have verbed it. Again, I > found no records other than claims in his obituaries. Reaganomics is more > recent and terminology quickly turned viral soon after inauguration (in > early 1981) so I did not even try to look this one up. But I am hoping > someone else might have better records on this. > > In any case, I just wanted to seed this investigation, as I will be > traveling for the next week and won't be able to do much on this subject. I > hope this is something that can be settled definitively. Good hunting! > > VS-) > > PS: A quick search on "coined Reaganomics" revealed something interesting, > although not about the coinage. It seems a LOT of people use "coined" as > "that someone called" or just "called". Note that the search is for two > separate words, although proximity appears to push them higher in the > searc= > h > hierarchy. > > > In the 1980s, Ronald Reagan and his cabinet unleashed his style of > economic= > s > > that was *coined Reaganomics*. > > > > Ronald Reagan's economic policies of retrenchment, tax cuts, budget > deficit= > s > > and monetarism, *coined* by the media as *Reaganomics*, had both positive > > and *...* > > > Later *coined Reaganomics*, the expectation was that reduced tax rates and > > regulation would actually result in more revenue for the Government *...* > > > A study by the libertarian CATO Institute assessed the supply-side economic > > policies during the Reagan administration =96 *coined* =93*Reaganomics*. > > > This new idea *coined* '*Reaganomics*' was that the poor would now provide > > for the rich. > > > > There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for > one, find this bizarre. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 2 16:27:29 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 11:27:29 -0500 Subject: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived Message-ID: Maybe we deal here with a sort of blend: "the manner in which it was reached" + "the manner in which it was arrived at". A traditional blend of these two would yield "...was reached at." But in the construction "in which it was arrived" we may see the loss of "at" due to its absence in "...was reached." G. Cohen ________________________________ Jonathan Lighter wrote, Tue 8/2/2011 11:16 AM I've noticed this phenomenon before, though only once or twice. Both times, however, were on NPR, and quite recently at that. I believe the verbs were different. My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the "preposition." Or is that too utterly absurd? JL On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which > Americans would (usually) not drop? > > Joel > > At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: > >On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the > >debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner > >in which it was arrived". > > > >The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of > >prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the > >order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the > >prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed > >preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed > >hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at > >the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* > >stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. > > > >Neal Whitman > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 2 16:55:57 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:55:57 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2011, at 12:16 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I've noticed this phenomenon before, though only once or twice. Both times, > however, were on NPR, and quite recently at that. I believe the verbs were > different. > > My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending > a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the > "preposition." > > Or is that too utterly absurd? > > Well, let's say it's a claim that I'd have some credence. LH > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 10:34 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: Fwd: The manner in which it was arrived >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Aren't there similar dropped prepositions in British speech which >> Americans would (usually) not drop? >> >> Joel >> >> At 8/2/2011 10:20 AM, Neal Whitman wrote: >>> On NPR this morning, the interviewer was asking about the >>> debt-ceiling deal, and asking about the significance of "the manner >>> in which it was arrived". >>> >>> The dropped/suppressed "at" is interesting. It's not a case of >>> prepositional cannibalism (e.g. "calls will be answererd in the >>> order that they are received [in]"), first of all because the >>> prepositions are different, and second because the suppressed >>> preposition can't be pied-piped (being a passive like "this bed >>> hasn't been slept in"). My WAG is that the pied-piped "in which" at >>> the beginning of the relative clause was enough to make *any* >>> stranded preposition at the end sound bad to this speaker. >>> >>> Neal Whitman >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 2 18:00:26 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 14:00:26 -0400 Subject: Paul Harvey and language In-Reply-To: <201108021619.p72FmLfM018715@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:10 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > > This new idea *coined* '*Reaganomics*' was that the poor would now provide > > > for the rich. > > > > There are so many of these that I see no point tracking the links. I, for > > one, find this bizarre. > > Quease-making yes, but not bizarre. I've heard this usage on TV news more > than once within the past, say, three to five years. JL noted this usage in Oct. 2006, and Grant Barrett pointed to a blog entry he'd written about it earlier that year: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0610B&L=ADS-L&m=52654&P=7459 http://www.doubletongued.org/coined --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 2 18:11:53 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 14:11:53 -0400 Subject: "Fluxus happening" Message-ID: Not in OED as an adjectival phrase, nor is "Fluxus" (as a noun). As "Argot [no kidding!] Murelius, a 43-year-old art writer who participated, her black lace lingerie peeking out from beneath her pink sweatsuit", said, "It's like a Fluxus happening -- it's sort of jaw-dropping, it's this moment, and it's never going to happen again." This particular Fluxus happening is Monday morning's "bare market" disrobing of about 50 persons on (or near?) Wall Street, as part of a performance-art piece called "Ocularpation", designed by Zefrey Throwell [also no kidding!]. See NYTimes, Aug. 2, C1 [New England edition], or http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/arts/design/zefrey-throwells-ocularpation-wall-street.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss (An implication from the article is that a Times reporter might have been an accessory before the fact -- "Over coffee in Bryant Park last week, [Mr. Throwell] explained his project." There were three arrests Monday.) A few hundred GBooks hits for "Fluxus happening/event/experience". See also Wikipedia for the origin of "Fluxus". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 2 20:37:20 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:37:20 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news Message-ID: U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Wed Aug 3 04:09:50 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 00:09:50 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news Message-ID: Wow, "tar baby" really is a word for "black person". It's even in the OED, and I found hits from the 1910s in the Google News Archive referring to a black boxer from Boston named Sam Langford as "the Boston tar baby". That's too bad. I always liked the Uncle Remus story about the tar baby, and hate that the offensive meaning is ushering out the colorful, funny and useful one. Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurence Horn" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 4:37 PM Subject: "tar baby" in the news > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment > > http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 06:14:26 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 02:14:26 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108022037.p72AqFFN015978@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn > Subject: ? ? ? "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment > > http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." Really? I did not know that. FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the _Tar-Babies_ At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as unreal, and I ain't going for it. Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 09:04:51 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 09:04:51 +0000 Subject: preserving ancient scripts by carving them into wood In-Reply-To: <201107232309.p6NAo9Hh011859@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: preserving ancient scripts by carving them into wood http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/08/the-eerie-beauty-of-rare-alphabets/242854/ Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 10:41:04 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 06:41:04 -0400 Subject: guesstimate (was Paul Harvey and language) Message-ID: Victor Steinbok > OEtD reports that the /noun/ "guesstimate" has been in use > since 1906--hardly something that Harvey could have contributed, although > that still leaves the possibility that he might have verbed it. The Online Etymology Dictionary appears to claim that the verb form of guesstimate was used by 1902 and the noun form by 1906. OED and Merriam Webster have later dates. guesstimate (v.) 1902, a blending of guess (v.) and estimate. Related: Guesstimated; guesstimating. As a noun, from 1906. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=guesstimate Here is a cite for the noun in 1904. Cite: 1904 April 15, Chicago Tribune, [No title; One item in a series of short items], Page 6, Column 3, Chicago, Illinois. (ProQuest) "All the same," declares the Troy (N. Y.) Times, "the census estimate is undoubtedly more reliable than Chicago guesswork." Out here it is considered merely a census guesstimate. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 3 17:35:04 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:35:04 -0700 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108021616.p72AoLWF007836@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 2, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending > a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the > "preposition." that seems to be going on in some of the omitted-P examples that the Language Loggers have discussed. a somewhat different case of P-omission: It?s probably the area of the coast that I had spent the least amount of time [in]. (Alex Fradkin, interviewed on KQED, 8/2/11) Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square dancing at Brock University) ... the community that I live [in] (writer Jesse Katz, interviewed on Latino USA, heard on KQED 11/2/09) the first and fourth aren't cases of P-cannibalism. but they're all cases where a _where_ relative would be fine (instead of a _that_ relative or a zero relative). Neal's latest example is reminiscent of one Jon Lighter posted here on 4/25/11: Yesterday an anchor on Fox News referred to a colleague as "someone who we're never able to stay away!" [omitted _from_] this example doesn't even have the pied-piping that might motivate P-omission. a few others of this sort: This is hard territory to mount a rescue [in]. (BBC reporter, NPR Saturday Morning Edition, 10/8/05, about the scene of earthquakes in Pakistan) ... take a variable that we already know the behavior [of]. (Laura Staum NWAV presentation, 10/21/05) Here?s something I should have gone into more detail [on]. (Jonathan Ginzburg, talk at Stanford, 5/16/07) That?s something that I think we need to make a change [in]. (Iowa farmer interviewed on NPR?s Morning Edition, 6/11/07) ... and other important things that we hope to get them the money [for]. (Rep. Barney Frank on NPR?s Saturday Morning Edition, 1/19/08) This is a state that John McCain might not do that well [in]. (reporter David Green on NPR?s Sunday Morning Edition, 1/20/08) It?s not the Christmas parties you didn?t invite me [to]. (character on Nash Bridges episode ?Javelin Catcher?, seen in re-runs 2/08) ...to receive the endorsement of the president of the united states, a man who I have great admiration, respect and affection [for]. (John McCain, in a press conference with GWB, 3/5/08) my interpretation of such examples is not that people are avoiding ending a sentence with a preposition, but that they think the preposition is "understood" in context; the preposition is selected for by the preceding verbal construction. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 17:50:38 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:50:38 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031735.p73AlkUZ031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This example intrigued me: > Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. > (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although it does in this similar example: ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square dancing at Brock University) I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 2, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> My suspicion is that people (or is it one NPR reporter?) are avoiding ending >> a sentence with a "preposition" by the simple expedient of dropping the >> "preposition." > > that seems to be going on in some of the omitted-P examples that the Language Loggers have discussed. > > a somewhat different case of P-omission: > > It?s probably the area of the coast that I had spent the least amount of time [in]. > (Alex Fradkin, interviewed on KQED, 8/2/11) > > Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. > (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > > ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square dancing at Brock University) > > ... the community that I live [in] > (writer Jesse Katz, interviewed on Latino USA, heard on KQED 11/2/09) > > the first and fourth aren't cases of P-cannibalism. but they're all cases where a _where_ relative would be fine (instead of a _that_ relative or a zero relative). > > Neal's latest example is reminiscent of one Jon Lighter posted here on 4/25/11: > > Yesterday an anchor on Fox News referred to a colleague as "someone who we're never able to stay away!" [omitted _from_] > > this example doesn't even have the pied-piping that might motivate P-omission. a few others of this sort: > > This is hard territory to mount a rescue [in]. > (BBC reporter, NPR Saturday Morning Edition, 10/8/05, about the scene of earthquakes in Pakistan) > > ... take a variable that we already know the behavior [of]. > (Laura Staum NWAV presentation, 10/21/05) > > Here?s something I should have gone into more detail [on]. > (Jonathan Ginzburg, talk at Stanford, 5/16/07) > > That?s something that I think we need to make a change [in]. > (Iowa farmer interviewed on NPR?s Morning Edition, 6/11/07) > > ... and other important things that we hope to get them the money [for]. > (Rep. Barney Frank on NPR?s Saturday Morning Edition, 1/19/08) > > This is a state that John McCain might not do that well [in]. > (reporter David Green on NPR?s Sunday Morning Edition, 1/20/08) > > It?s not the Christmas parties you didn?t invite me [to]. > (character on Nash Bridges episode ?Javelin Catcher?, seen in re-runs 2/08) > > ...to receive the endorsement of the president of the united states, a man who I have great admiration, respect and affection [for]. > (John McCain, in a press conference with GWB, 3/5/08) > > my interpretation of such examples is not that people are avoiding ending a sentence with a preposition, but that they think the preposition is "understood" in context; the preposition is selected for by the preceding verbal construction. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 3 17:57:47 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 10:57:47 -0700 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031751.p73FeeWA028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > This example intrigued me: > >> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. >> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > > The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although > it does in this similar example: > > ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the > other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square > dancing at Brock University) > > I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. that's right. but it is a zero/where example. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 3 18:16:44 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:16:44 -0500 Subject: Two books of possible interest Message-ID: I pass along the following announcement fyi. The first book has several items pertaining to English etymology and the second one may be of interest to onomasticians. Incidentally, I have no financial interest in either item. G. Cohen ________________________________ From: jewish-languages at googlegroups.com on behalf of Sarah Benor Sent: Tue 8/2/2011 2:20 PM To: JEWISH LANGUAGES Subject: [Jewish Languages] Fwd: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST Dear JL list, David Gold asked me to forward this annoucement. Sarah ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: David Gold Date: Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 7:49 AM Subject: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST The Press of the University of Alicante announces the publication of David L. Gold's Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Slavic, and Romance Languages). Enclosed is an attachment which gives details about the book as well as about Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography, of which he is the editor. Two Books of Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Linguistic Interest Gold, David L. 2009. Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Languages) / Selected and Edited, with a Foreword, by F?lix Rodr?guez Gonz?lez and Antonio Lillo Buades. Alicante. Publicaciones de la Universidad de Alicante. 870 pages. ISBN 978-84-7908-517-9. Dictionaries usually give only brief treatment to etymologies and even etymological dictionaries often do not lavish on them the attention they deserve. To help fill the gap, the author deals in depth with several etymologically problematic words in various Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic languages, all of which have hitherto either been misetymologized or not etymologized at all (the three most detailed chapters - 14, 16, and 31 - are respectively 104, 130, and 134 pages long). Sometimes, he succeeds in cracking the nut; sometimes, he is able only to clear away misunderstanding; but always he endeavors to set the stage for further serious treatment, as in the several chapters disproving or doubting a Yiddish or Hebrew origin for certain English lexemes. Usually, the author marshals not only linguistic but also historical and cultural information, his approach thus being both linguistic and philological. He deals too with etiology, an often essential but not infrequently neglected component of etymological research. For example, dictionaries in all languages that include a lexeme translating literally as 'Molotov cocktail' not only misetymologize it but also either fail to etiologize it (why does it commemorate Vyatsheslav Mikhailovitsh Molotov?) or misetiologize it. Chapter 10 (42 pages), based in part on an examination of relevant Finnish military terms and other Finnish sources, presents, for the first time, the right etymology and the right etiology. Since this book, which consists of thirty studies in English and one in romanized Yiddish, discusses methodology (notably in chapter 11 but also in most others), it has the makings of an introduction to the science, art, and craft of etymology. The titles of the studies are: 1. The Alleged Russian Origin of French bistro ~ bistrot 'wine merchant; public house' Versus Its Probable Ultimate Origin in Vulgar Latin or Gallo-Romance (On the Persistence of a Folk Etymology and Folk Etiology Despite the Suggestion of Better Etymologies) 2. The Origin of Chicano Spanish blanquillo 'testicle' (On How Emulated Dyosemy Can Defeat the Purpose of a Euphemism) 3. The British English Origin of Informal Israeli Hebrew braso 4. American English Slang copacetic 'fine, all right' Has No Hebrew, Yiddish, or Other Jewish Connection 5. The American English Slangism fink Probably Has No Jewish Connection 6. Definite and Possible English Reflexes of Spanish garbanzo 'chickpea' 7. Originally American English glitz, glitz up, and glitzy Probably Have No Yiddish Connection 8. Towards a Dossier on the Still Unclear Immediate Etymon(s?) of American English Slang hooker 'whore' (With Remarks on the Origin of American English Barnegat, Dixie, fly ~ vlei ~ vley ~ vlaie ~ vly, Gramercy Park, Hell Gate, jazz, sloughter, and Spuyten Duyvil) 9. American English jitney 'five-cent coin; sum of five cents' Has No Apparent Jewish or Russian Connection and May Come from (Black?) Louisiana French jetn?e (On the Increasing Difficulty of Harvesting All the Grain) 10. Etymology and Etiology in the Study of Eponymous Lexemes: The Case of English Molotov cocktail and Finnish Molotovin koktaili 11. Nine Criteria for Assessing the Likelihood of Yiddish Influence on English (With Examples) 12. English paparazzo < Italian paparazzo = Commonization of the Label Name Paparazzo (in Federico Fellini's La Dolce Vita) < ? 13. New York City English parky 'park-keeper' Is Probably a Spontaneous Coinage Rather than a Borrowing from British English 14. When Chauvinism Interferes in Etymological Research: A Few Observations on the Supposed Vulgar Latin Derivation of Rumanian pastrama ~ pastrama, a Noun of Immediate Turkish Origin (With Preliminary Remarks on Related Words in Albanian, Arabic, Armenian, English, French, Greek, Hebrew, Judezmo, Polish, Russian, SerboCroatian, Spanish, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Yiddish) 15. An Immediate or Non-Immediate Jewish Connection for Dutch poeha and Variants (> Afrikaans bohaai > South African English bohaai), French brouhaha (> English brouhaha), French Brou, brou, ha, ha, Brou, ha, ha, High German buhai and Variants, Low German buh? and Variants, or Modern West Frisian bahey and Variants Has Not Been Proven (With Remarks on the Jewish Italian or Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Arezzo Dialectal barruccaba and the Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Italian badanai) 16. Mexican Spanish sarape ~ zarape (Whence American English sarape ~ serape ~ serapi ~ zarape and French sarap? ~ s?rap?), a Word Possibly from Tarascan /'charakwa/, Probably Has No Jewish or Iranian Connection 17. Is Slang American English schnook ~ shnook 'pitifully meek person' from Informal High German Schnuck' 'a kind of small sheep', Northeastern Yiddish shnuk '[elephant's] trunk; snout [of other animals]', or Plattduetsch Schn?ck 'snail'? 18. Whence American English scrod and Grimsby English scrob? 19. Does American English shack 'shanty' Come From One or More Uto-Aztecan Languages of the American Plains? 20. The Etymology of English spiel and spieler and Scots English bonspiel 21. English Star Chamber Has No Jewish Connection 22. Who Can Decipher (Yiddish?) *"bashtem" and (Yiddish?) *"ghop bagi"? 23. The (Solely Southeastern?) Yiddish Cloth Name taniklot and the Rare American English Baking Term poolish 'leaven, starter, starter dough' 24. An Instance of Convergence: Frisian witte and Yiddish mideye 25. A Few English Words Misattributed to Yiddish (finagle, finical, finick, toco, trantle, and trantlum); a Yiddish-Origin English Word Misetymologized for at Least Sixty-One Years (bopkes); a Misetymologized Yiddish Pen Name (shmul niger); and a Misetymologized Eastern Yiddish Word (yavne-veyasne!) 26. Etymological and Sociolinguistic Notes of Czech and Jewish or Possible Jewish Interest (On Czech fizl, frajle, hajzl, H?ra, ketas, mecheche, misuge ~ misuke, Nabuchodonozor ~ Nabukadnezar, pajzl, pejzy, smelina, smelin?r, smok; Yiddish di alt-naye shul, peyem ~ peym; Olomouc in Yiddish Lexemes; Franz Kafka's Early Linguistic History; and the Investigation of Yiddish in Bohemia and Moravia) 27. On the Probable Kenaanic Origin of Two Eastern Yiddish Kin Terms, zeyde 'grandfather' and bobe 'grandmother' 28. Zinfandel: An American English Grape and Wine Name of Immediate Hungarian, Moravian Czech, and/or Slovak Origin (On How the Origin of a Significans Need Not Be Parallel to the Origin of the Corresponding Significatum) 29. Nokh a por dugmes fun der yidisher hashpoe af ivrit 30. Some More Israeli Hebrew Items of German Origin 31. Jewish Dickensiana, Part One: Despite Popular Belief, the Name Fagin in Charles Dickens's Oliver Twist Has No Jewish Connection (With Appendixes on Some Laws Concerning Personal Names and on Dickens's Authentic Yiddish Name) *** Since prices may change, none is indicated below. Please check before ordering. Ordering in North America: If ordering the print version by credit card: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=5356817830&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3DStudies%2Bin%Etymology%2Band%2Betiology%26x%3D0%26y%3D0 If ordering the print version through a PayPal account, please ask Digitalia for a link: Digitalia (attention: Lluis Claret) 708 Third Av (6 fl) New York NY 10017-4119 U S A telephone 1- 212 209-3980 fax 1-347 626-2388 http://lclaret @digitalia.us If ordering the ebook Kindle version: http://www.amazon.com/ETYMOLOGY-ETIOLOGY-EMPHASIS-LANGUAGES-ebook/dp/B004D500BM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311625551&sr=8-1 If ordering access to the ebook pdf version online (for individuals or libraries): http://www.digitalia.us Ordering in Mexico: Universo Bibliogr?fico, SA de CV C/ Norte, 21 A, n.? 5212 Colonia Nuevo Vallejo M?xico DF 07750 telephone (55) 5233 6144 fax (55) 2453 8847 http://www.ubisa @cablevision.net.mx Ordering in Argentina: Jorge Waldhuter, Distribuci?n de libros Camarones 1526 (C1416ECD) Ciudad Aut?noma de Buenos Aires fax 54 11 4-585-7562 http:www.jwalibros at ciudad.com.ar Ordering in other countries of Latin America: Pujol i Amad? C/ Cuenca 35 17220 Sant Feliu de Gu?xols Girona Espa?a telephone and fax 011 34 972 323 366 http://www.bernat @pujolamado.com Ordering in other countries: Celesa C/ Laurel 21 ES-28005 Madrid / Spain telephone 011 34 915 17 01 70 fax 011 34 915 17 34 81 Other matters: Servei de Publicacions Universitat d'Alacant Campus de Sant Vicent del Raspeig Apartat de Correus 99 ES-03080 Alacant Spain telephone 011 34 96 5 90 3480 fax 011 34 96 5 90 9445 http://www.publicaciones.ua.es *** Singerman, Robert. 2001. Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography. Edited by David L. Gold. Leiden. Brill. x + 245 pp. ISBN 90 04 12189 7. Brill Academic Publishers Plantijnstraat 2 Postbus 9000 NL-2300 PA Leiden The Netherlands http://www.brill.nl/catalogue/productinfo.asp?product=9681 *** If you have any problem ordering either book or if you want to get a notice of D.L.G.'s next publication, please send a message to: dovedleyzer at yahoo.com (Notices of new publications will no longer be sent by postal mail.) -- Jewish Languages http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-languages/ To post: send a message to jewish-languages at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe: send a blank message to jewish-languages+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 18:35:54 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:35:54 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031757.p73AlkVT031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: How exactly would where fit in? I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> This example intrigued me: >> >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) >> >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although >> it does in this similar example: >> >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square >> dancing at Brock University) >> >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. > > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 18:45:57 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 14:45:57 -0400 Subject: guesstimate (was Paul Harvey and language) In-Reply-To: <201108031041.p73A0AjR015978@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The Online Etymology Dictionary appears to claim that the verb form of > guesstimate was used by 1902 and the noun form by 1906. OED and > Merriam-Webster have later dates. > Oddly, as of this very moment, _guesstimate_ as a verb is, for me, *still* non-occurrent. I could become accustomed to it, I reckon, just as I've become accustomed to hearing that gross obscenity of my youth, "tap that ass," used as a throw-away phrase on prime-time TV.:-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 19:07:07 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:07:07 +0800 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031836.p73ISXnH016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > How exactly would where fit in? > it would be hard to misread this in the context {where} it appears [in]. > I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is > grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. > > DanG > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > >> This example intrigued me: > >> > >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it > appears [in]. > >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > >> > >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although > >> it does in this similar example: > >> > >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the > >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square > >> dancing at Brock University) > >> > >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. > > > > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 19:22:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:22:01 -0400 Subject: guesstimate (was Paul Harvey and language) In-Reply-To: <201108031846.p73AlkZX031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you do a basic search, the noun significantly outnumbers the verb, but it does not mean exclusivity. 3/18/11 http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/18/google-guesstimates-release-dates-for-movies-and-games/ >> Google guesstimates release dates for movies and games 6/24/11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIrnvqK50Cs >> Group of Doctors Guesstimates High Level of Radiation Exposure - Fukushima Meltdowns And "tap that ass" _has_ now become a throw-away phrase in _cable_ prime-time shows--even non-premium cable. I don't think I've watched a first-run network prime-time show in about 6 years (OK, I do watch occasional syndicated reruns or DVD versions), except perhaps for a handful of episodes of Fringe and Lie To Me two years ago (the latter having been put out of its misery very quickly and the former lasting far too long). VS-) On 8/3/11, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Oddly, as of this very moment, _guesstimate_ as a verb is, for me, > *still* non-occurrent. I could become accustomed to it, I reckon, just > as I've become accustomed to hearing that gross obscenity of my youth, > "tap that ass," used as a throw-away phrase on prime-time TV.:-) > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 19:26:36 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 15:26:36 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031907.p73ISXrv016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sorry if this is coming across as extreme nitpicking. For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not consider context to be a place. Once you cross that hurdle, however, I still think the second "in" sounds redundant: in the context where it appears would sound fine to my ears if I thought context could take a "where" "that" would work "in which" would work, and resolves the second "in" issue. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:35 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> How exactly would where fit in? >> > > it would be hard to misread this in the context {where} it appears [in]. > > >> I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is >> grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Arnold Zwicky >> > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >> > >> >> This example intrigued me: >> >> >> >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it >> appears [in]. >> >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) >> >> >> >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although >> >> it does in this similar example: >> >> >> >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the >> >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. >> >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square >> >> dancing at Brock University) >> >> >> >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. >> > >> > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. >> > >> > arnold >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > Randy Alexander > Xiamen, China > Blogs: > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 20:01:18 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 04:01:18 +0800 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031927.p73ISXtn016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not > consider context to be a place. > Along those lines, it would seem that "appear" doesn't work either; doesn't something need a place (even if it's a metaphorical place) to appear? COCA has 127 instances of "context where", most of which are from academic (presumably copyedited) writing. -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 20:11:00 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:11:00 -0400 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108032001.p73Fee00028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Er, no. A figure can appear in the rain, but rain is not a place, and using "where" to refer to the rain would probably be wrong. As for using academic writing as proof of correctness, I don't think I will make a lot of friends continuing this argument. DanG On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Randy Alexander wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Randy Alexander > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not >> consider context to be a place. >> > > Along those lines, it would seem that "appear" doesn't work either; doesn't > something need a place (even if it's a metaphorical place) to appear? > > COCA has 127 instances of "context where", most of which are from academic > (presumably copyedited) writing. > > -- > Randy Alexander > Xiamen, China > Blogs: > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 3 20:27:43 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:27:43 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" Message-ID: In honor of the recently released eponymous movie (cf. http://www.fwb-movie.com/), the "friends with benefits" euphemism appears to be lacking in the OED. The closest is one of the several April 2010 Draft Additions: An advantage or perk (such as a pension, company car, life insurance, etc.) provided for an employee by an employer, in addition to wages or salary. Chiefly in pl. Cf. fringe benefit But we don't want to entice people to see the movie in question expecting that either Justin Timberlake or Mila Kunis is offering the other a company car or life insurance in addition to the wages or salary that normally come with the job. And god forbid pensions are involved?we know how likely *they* are to be honored anymore. I believe this euphemism has been in place for awhile and should have at least some staying power, especially now that it can be abbreviated as FWB; I may have first noticed it in one of my undergraduates' New Words journals a number of years back. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Aug 3 20:33:16 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:33:16 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <83C242DB-336C-4C1B-8D45-58A236D868AD@yale.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 03, 2011 at 04:27:43PM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > In honor of the recently released eponymous movie (cf. > http://www.fwb-movie.com/), the "friends with benefits" euphemism > appears to be lacking in the OED. It's on The List. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 21:32:18 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 17:32:18 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic Message-ID: I Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." II Another CNN analyst explained that the UN is reluctant to get involved in countries like Syria "no matter how gruesome or graphic the government is treating its own people." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 22:25:22 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:25:22 +0000 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108031836.p73FeegW028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think one could keep the in in in the context that it's in in my opinion. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > How exactly would where fit in? > > I think the duplication of the "in" sounds wrong, even if it is > grammatically correct, and often the ears have it. > > DanG > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > >> This example intrigued me: > >> > >>> Though I agree: it would be hard to misread this in the context it appears [in]. > >>> (Derek Wykoff, comment 3/23/11 on Facebook) > >> > >> The omission of the duplicate "in" doesn't sound wrong to me, although > >> it does in this similar example: > >> > >> ...taking place in the same gym that Integrity, along with all the > >> other groups, had displays [in] during General Synod. > >> (card from Chris Ambidge of 5/9/10, about an evening of square > >> dancing at Brock University) > >> > >> I note that the first example above is not a that/where example. > > > > that's right. but it is a zero/where example. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 22:59:28 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 18:59:28 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108032132.p73Alkk3031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not part of the great narrative" in 1994. New York Times CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side By Martha Saxton Published: November 13, 1994 http://goo.gl/4PahY http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we teach. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 3 23:32:24 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:32:24 -0400 Subject: Exclamation: Great Scott (1856 December) Message-ID: The exclamation "Great Scott" was discussed by Michael Quinion in 2002 at World Wide Words and by Fred Shapiro in 2010 on the Freakonomics blog. The ADS list archive has some messages on the topic in 2002 and 2003. The comment section of Fred's most recent post mentions "Great Scott". http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-gre4.htm http://www.freakonomics.com/2010/02/25/quotes-uncovered-great-scott-and-book-burners/ http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/07/28/a-scuffle-over-scuffle/ The earliest currently known citations for the exclamation are dated in the 1860s I think. Here is a citation in 1856. (The phrase "Great Scott" appeared considerably earlier, but I was searching for the exclamation. In the 1840s Great Scott meetings were held.) Cite: 1856 December, The Eclectic Medical Journal, Review of Buchanan's Anthropology by Prof. L. E. Jones, M. D., Start Page 520, Quote Page 524, Column 1, Fourth Series, Volume II, Number 12, Published by R. S. & ). E. Newton, Cincinnati, Ohio. (Google Books full view) Oh! Moses! Let no man hereafter presume to say Ex-Prof. Buchanan has not taught, and does not teach, practical Eclecticism. He informs you, Eclectics, that these conditions are of great physiological value, "as they are highly applicable to the treatment of disease." He tells you the aquatic, or cold blooded condition, is valuable as an antiphlogistic agent, and that it soothes and tranquilizes the lungs. "Great Scott!" Mystery upon mystery, and marvel upon marvel! Will day ever dawn? What does our author mean? The writer is again unexpectedly surrounded by the eternal fogs of our author's brilliant scientific discoveries, and by the brilliancy of his elocution! http://books.google.com/books?id=nHgBAAAAYAAJ&q=%22Great+Scott%22#v=snippet& Here is a cite in 1865 describing how one person used the exclamation. Cite: 1865 July 19, Freeport Weekly Journal Page 1, Column 6, A Pair of Illinois Portraits, Freeport, Illinois. (NewspaperArchive) A PAIR OF ILLINOIS PORTRAITS. Gen. Turner and Colonel Shaffer. >From Colonel's Halpine's "Personal Recollections of the War." MAJOR GENERAL JOHN W. TURNER - THE CORN-FED BOY FROM ILLINOY Let me next remind you - though well convinced you do not need reminding ? of Major General John W. Turner, then a captain of the commissary department , and our chief commissary, although previous to the war a first lieutenant of the regular artillery, to which arm of the service he returned as a volunteer on every occasion of active service, John was "a corn-fed boy from Illinoy," and was known throughout the command by the sobriquet of "Great Scott Turner," from a habit he had of exclaiming "Great Scott" - in lieu of the more objectionable exclamation more commonly used in the army and elsewhere - whenever profoundly astonished or moved by any excitement. "Great Scott," either energetically shouted or pathetically whispered, formed the safety-valve through which he blew off all the emotions of his ardent but well-disciplined spirit . "Great Scott" be shouted when the enem's flag went down. "Great Scott was the highest apostrophe that woman's beauty could win from him; ? Here is a cite in 1869 stating that the exclamation was used by "regulars in the army." Cite: 1869 January 7, Hartford Daily Courant, Page 2, Column 1, Hartford, Connecticut. (GenealogyBank) The production of United States senators is lively about these days. Mr. Chandler of Michigan was re-nominated Wednesday evening, and the Republicans of the Pennsylvania legislature have nominated John Scott to by senator vice Buckalew. Mr. Chandler everybody knows, but "Great Scott!" as the regulars in the army say, who Is John Scott? For weeks all the good fellows in Pennsylvania have been saying that "It is of no use to try to make a good senator; Simon Cameron is bound to buy up the legislature anyhow." Is this Mr. Scott a lucky triumph for the decent men, or is it "just as we expected?" [All the text is from OCR. I have attempted to correct it but I am sure that errors persist.] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Aug 4 01:52:30 2011 From: jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA (James Harbeck) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:52:30 -0400 Subject: double hashtag Message-ID: Heard just now on _So You Think You Can Dance_: Lil C explains that when he wants to emphasize something on Twitter, he puts a hashtag on it. "This routine," he goes on to say, "was double hashtag buck." He repeats: "Double hashtag buck." You heard it here first! James Harbeck. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 02:02:43 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:02:43 -0400 Subject: A conundrum Message-ID: One of my pet peeves is people who ask me whether they can ask me a question, thereby asking me a question and precluding the possibility of my refusing them permission to ask me a question. It is not sensible to ask permission to ask a question by asking permission to ask a question, given that the only way to ask permission to ask a question is by asking a question without permission to ask a question. A straightforward way out of this is to oblige people to ask questions with asking for permission to ask a question. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 4 02:08:07 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:08:07 -0700 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040203.p73ISXJp016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. The question is not only a social nicety approximately meaning "excuse me," but provides the interlocutor a way to avoid needing to consider a serious question when brain resources are at a premium. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > One of my pet peeves is people who ask me whether they can ask me a > question, thereby asking me a question and precluding the possibility > of my refusing them permission to ask me a question. It is not > sensible to ask permission to ask a question by asking permission to > ask a question, given that the only way to ask permission to ask a > question is by asking a question without permission to ask a question. > > A straightforward way out of this is to oblige people to ask questions > with asking for permission to ask a question. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 02:29:48 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:29:48 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040208.p73Alkol031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > f I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. That wouldn't help you. You'd already have been asked a question before you had a chance to refuse the petitioner permission to ask you a question. Asking your permission to ask you a question is asking you a question without your permission.. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 4 02:35:58 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:35:58 -0700 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040230.p73ISXKT016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:29 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> f I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. > > That wouldn't help you. You'd already have been asked a question > before you had a chance to refuse the petitioner permission to ask you > a question. Asking your permission to ask you a question is asking you > a question without your permission.. No. Answering the question, "Can I ask you a question" requires a mere check on the brain resources. If, instead, the person runs a complex question through my brain while I am trying to figure out a complex Japanese passage, then I get confused and irritated. I prefer that I be given the option of whether to be flooded with a question requiring thought. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 03:53:01 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:53:01 +0000 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040208.p73KEnZU028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It peeves me too. You know they're dead set on asking the questiion. So why don't they say "Let me ask you this?" But to ask a question about permission to ask a question, means you've already asked a question in the first place. That's hashtag, really hashtag. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: A conundrum > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If I'm concentrating on something, my answer very well might be no. The question is not only a social nicety approximately meaning "excuse me," but provides the interlocutor a way to avoid needing to consider a serious question when brain resources are at a premium. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:02 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > One of my pet peeves is people who ask me whether they can ask me a > > question, thereby asking me a question and precluding the possibility > > of my refusing them permission to ask me a question. It is not > > sensible to ask permission to ask a question by asking permission to > > ask a question, given that the only way to ask permission to ask a > > question is by asking a question without permission to ask a question. > > > > A straightforward way out of this is to oblige people to ask questions > > with asking for permission to ask a question. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 04:03:38 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:03:38 +0800 Subject: The manner in which it was arrived In-Reply-To: <201108032011.p73Alkeh031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Er, no. > > A figure can appear in the rain, but rain is not a place, and using > "where" to refer to the rain would probably be wrong. > > As for using academic writing as proof of correctness, I don't think I > will make a lot of friends continuing this argument. > Well, you won't catch me trying to "prove correctness" (I'm not sure how you came under that assumption); I was using the COCA data to show that a significant number of copy editors didn't find a problem with "context where", which is evidence that the collocation is being accepted in academic English. Whether that's good or not is another matter entirely. Randy > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Randy Alexander > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Randy Alexander > > Subject: Re: The manner in which it was arrived > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Dan Goncharoff > wrote: > > > >> For me, "where" is a term of place, and the copywriter in me does not > >> consider context to be a place. > >> > > > > Along those lines, it would seem that "appear" doesn't work either; > doesn't > > something need a place (even if it's a metaphorical place) to appear? > > > > COCA has 127 instances of "context where", most of which are from > academic > > (presumably copyedited) writing. > > > > -- > > Randy Alexander > > Xiamen, China > > Blogs: > > Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu > > Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen > > Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 04:43:22 2011 From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM (Herb Stahlke) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 00:43:22 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108030615.p72LLk6A018715@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson, Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. Herb On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >> Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn >> Subject: ? ? ? "tar baby" in the news >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." > > Really? I did not know that. > > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the > > _Tar-Babies_ > > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. > > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as > unreal, and I ain't going for it. > > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. > > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 06:12:22 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 02:12:22 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning Message-ID: A promo for an upcoming cable drama episode used the phrase "infected by radiation poisoning" which apparently is uttered in one of the scenes. A quick check suggests that being "infected" by radiation or one of its aspects is in fairly common use in texts promoting radiation survival, although it appears in other venues as well (at least one Trekkie site). Has this ship sailed? Does "infected" mean having been exposed to any kind of (physically) harmful influence that causes an illness? VS-) Three examples: > Shower with soap and water, scrubbing hard to remove any possible radiation from the body. This helps with the remaining 10% of external contamination, and lowers the risk of you breathing, ingesting or being _infected_ by harmful radiation particles. > Now that you've evacuated yourself from the _infected_ area and cleaned up a bit, it's time for the third step?increasing your distance to the infected zone. If you double the distance between you and the danger zone, the possible exposure of radiation is reduced by a factor of 4 (inverse-square law). > I then pointed out to you the comparative numbers of people who died or were _infected_ by radiation sickness in the MONTH after Chernobyl and in the MONTH (that is all we have so far) after Fukushima, and you extrapolated from that the fact that I was under-estimating the number of people who died or became infected after Chernobyl (a complete non sequitur if ever there was one, albeit a self-serving one). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:00:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:00:22 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108040443.p73Alkup031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Herb Stahlke wrote: > a cartoon image of a black baby. And, from the moment that you saw that, you internalized - in your passive vocabulary, at least - _tar-baby_ as a derogatory term for a black person? That's an amazing outcome! I really had no idea that racism was so easily instilled!:-( -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:03:01 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:03:01 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108040612.p73ISXX3016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > Does "infected" mean > having been exposed to any kind of (physically) harmful influence that > causes an illness? I hope not! Of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:22:46 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:22:46 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040236.p73ISXL5016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the question, "Can I ask you a question" Well, given that you don't deny that the question is a question... -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:29:18 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:29:18 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040723.p73KEnrq028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Can I ask you another question? Eric > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > > the question, "Can I ask you a question" > > Well, given that you don't deny that the question is a question... > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 07:49:58 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 03:49:58 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040729.p73ISXaX016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Can I ask you another question? "'Tain't funny, McGee!":-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Thu Aug 4 11:22:26 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:22:26 -0300 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040750.p73ISXah016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. Client: Isn't that a lot? Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? DAD : Re: A conundrum ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Can I ask you another question? "'Tain't funny, McGee!":-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Aug 4 12:13:27 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:13:27 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108040729.p73ISXaX016829@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, no. Isn't the obvious workaround "Can I ask you two questions, including this one?" Neal On Aug 4, 2011, at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: A conundrum > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Can I ask you another question? > > Eric > > >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Benjamin Barrett >> wrote: >>> the question, "Can I ask you a question" >> >> Well, given that you don't deny that the question is a question... >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 4 13:29:53 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:29:53 +0000 Subject: "tar baby" in the news Message-ID: "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Herb Stahlke To: Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news Wilson, Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. Herb On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >> Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn >> Subject: ? ? ? "tar baby" in the news >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." > > Really? I did not know that. > > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the > > _Tar-Babies_ > > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. > > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as > unreal, and I ain't going for it. > > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. > > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 14:02:39 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:02:39 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <002701cc5298$cbb3b300$631b1900$@com> Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 07:22 AM, David A. Daniel wrote: >Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? >Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. >Client: Isn't that a lot? >Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? >DAD This is the same lawyer who once met a doctor at a cocktail party. When the doctor learned he was a lawyer, the doctor said, "may I ask you a question?" Lawyer: Certainly. Doctor: When I meet people at cocktail parties and they learn I am a doctor, they often ask me to diagnose their symptoms. What should I do? Lawyer: Give them your opinion and send a bill in the morning. Doctor: Brilliant -- I'll do that! So the doctor went home happy. When he opened his mail the next morning, he found a bill from the lawyer for $200. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:02:49 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:02:49 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108032259.p73KEnRE028645@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean the "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." JL On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." > > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not > part of the great narrative" in 1994. > > New York Times > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side > By Martha Saxton > Published: November 13, 1994 > > http://goo.gl/4PahY > > http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html > > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we > teach. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:08:09 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:08:09 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb Message-ID: A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:15:06 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:15:06 +0000 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041330.p74AlZX3030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And it isn't certain but what Harris thought he was (more-or-less) accurately rendering a middle-Georgia AA dialect in his presentation of the (mostly) traditional AA tales. --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Ron Butters [ronbutters at AOL.COM] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 9:29 AM "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Herb Stahlke To: Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news Wilson, Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. Herb On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >> Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn >> Subject: ? ? ? "tar baby" in the news >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> LH >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." > > Really? I did not know that. > > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the > > _Tar-Babies_ > > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. > > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as > unreal, and I ain't going for it. > > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. > > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 14:16:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:16:06 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with some quality or property by immersion or infusion. b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying substance, or active principle, as poison, or salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) ?2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious corruption or the germs of disease; to render injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the body) with disease; to communicate a morbific virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] Joel At 8/4/2011 02:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >A promo for an upcoming cable drama episode used the phrase "infected >by radiation poisoning" which apparently is uttered in one of the >scenes. A quick check suggests that being "infected" by radiation or >one of its aspects is in fairly common use in texts promoting >radiation survival, although it appears in other venues as well (at >least one Trekkie site). Has this ship sailed? Does "infected" mean >having been exposed to any kind of (physically) harmful influence that >causes an illness? > >VS-) > >Three examples: > > > Shower with soap and water, scrubbing hard to > remove any possible radiation from the body. > This helps with the remaining 10% of external > contamination, and lowers the risk of you > breathing, ingesting or being _infected_ by harmful radiation particles. > > > > Now that you've evacuated yourself from the > _infected_ area and cleaned up a bit, it's time > for the third step?increasing your distance to > the infected zone. If you double the distance > between you and the danger zone, the possible > exposure of radiation is reduced by a factor of 4 (inverse-square law). > > > > I then pointed out to you the comparative > numbers of people who died or were _infected_ > by radiation sickness in the MONTH after > Chernobyl and in the MONTH (that is all we have > so far) after Fukushima, and you extrapolated > from that the fact that I was under-estimating > the number of people who died or became > infected after Chernobyl (a complete non > sequitur if ever there was one, albeit a self-serving one). > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:21:28 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:21:28 +0000 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108041403.p74Atrda025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: As when PR specialists or damage-control experts or criminal lawyers and their clients meet to "decide on a narrative." --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:02 AM Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean the "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." JL On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." > > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not > part of the great narrative" in 1994. > > New York Times > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side > By Martha Saxton > Published: November 13, 1994 > > http://goo.gl/4PahY > > http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html > > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we > teach. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:26:35 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:26:35 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This was supposed to go to everyone but didn't: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Harris got bashed and re-bashed in the '60s. The fact that was a Geirgia > white man didn't help. > > I guarandamntee you that when I watched Disney's "Song of the South" at the > age of about seven, it never occurred to me that anynody was parodying > anything. Uncle Remus was a great. The animals had no race. The tar baby > was made out of tar. > > Years later I read many of the original stories and found nothing > offensive. But of course, I'm disqualified as a judge in some extreme > quarters. > > The rap against the Uncle Remus stories seems to be: > > 1. As a white man, Harris was not authorized to write about black people, > even though Uncle Remus is clearly intended to be no more than an Aesop > figure. > > 2. Harris has Remus speak in dialect, which is degrading and insulting. > (When Huck Finn speaks in dialect, that's degrading and insulting too, > but only because he uses the N-word.) > > 3. Remus never protests racism. > > 4. There isn't enough racism in the stories for Remus to protest: so Harris > lies to children about the South. > > 5. Remus exists only to tell clever stories to a wealthy little white kid. > So instead of Superfly, he's just an Amos 'n Andy fantasy. > > 6. Harris dreamed up most of the stories instead of being a black man > telling authentic folk tales passed down over the centuries from Africa. > > But the point is that I never took the tar baby to be a slam at black > people. I suppose the "baby" might have been made of, I don't > know, vanilla-wafer dough instead of black tar, but then Br'er Rabbit > wouldn't have gotten quite as stuck. > > HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. All > after "Song > of the South." > > JL > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Ron Butters >> Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it >> really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely >> popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? >> >> Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE >> >> ------Original Message------ >> From: Herb Stahlke >> To: >> Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 >> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news >> >> Wilson, >> >> Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story >> book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar >> baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used >> eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the >> racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been >> responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. >> >> Herb >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Wilson Gray >> > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> >> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >> >> Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn >> >> Subject: ? ? ? "tar baby" in the news >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >> >> >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >> >> >> >> LH >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> >> > >> > "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is >> > understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." >> > >> > Really? I did not know that. >> > >> > FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's >> > - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" >> > as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely >> > referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the >> > >> > _Tar-Babies_ >> > >> > At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High >> > student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named >> > after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, >> > in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play >> > against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. >> > >> > That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or >> > severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as >> > unreal, and I ain't going for it. >> > >> > Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge >> > of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon >> > the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny >> > papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent >> > a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the >> > author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. >> > >> > I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy >> > of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation >> > can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone >> > wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the >> > country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention >> > to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. >> > >> > -- >> > -Wilson >> > ----- >> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> > -Mark Twain >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:33:35 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:33:35 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108041421.p74AtrfM025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And nobody says, "That's my narrative, and I'm sticking to it!" Yet. But it wouldn't be funny if they did, because it would be an obvious admission of craft, unlike the potentially ambiguous "story." Any guilty moron might say, "That's my story...," but only an unapologetic political operator with an advanced degree would say, "That's my narrative...." JL On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > As when PR specialists or damage-control experts or criminal lawyers and > their clients meet to "decide on a narrative." > > --Charlie > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of > Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:02 AM > > > Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in > 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean > the > "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. > > In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to > some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and > hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." > > > JL > > > > > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Garson O'Toole > > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Jonathan Lighter wrote > > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: > > > > > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our > > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the > > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." > > > > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not > > part of the great narrative" in 1994. > > > > New York Times > > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side > > By Martha Saxton > > Published: November 13, 1994 > > > > http://goo.gl/4PahY > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html > > > > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and > > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was > > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our > > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and > > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we > > teach. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 14:37:05 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:37:05 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108041402.p74AlZHo028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I recommend, "Hey! I got a question for you, asshole!" Far less irritating. On the other hand, plain "Hey! Asshole!" would just be rude. JL On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: A conundrum > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/4/2011 07:22 AM, David A. Daniel wrote: > >Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? > >Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. > >Client: Isn't that a lot? > >Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? > >DAD > > This is the same lawyer who once met a doctor at a cocktail > party. When the doctor learned he was a lawyer, the doctor said, > "may I ask you a question?" > Lawyer: Certainly. > Doctor: When I meet people at cocktail parties and they learn I am a > doctor, they often ask me to diagnose their symptoms. What should I do? > Lawyer: Give them your opinion and send a bill in the morning. > Doctor: Brilliant -- I'll do that! > So the doctor went home happy. When he opened his mail the next > morning, he found a bill from the lawyer for $200. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Aug 4 14:42:32 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:42:32 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: A<002701cc5298$cbb3b300$631b1900$@com> Message-ID: Boy, does that lawyer ever have a money-losing business model. The third question is going to be something like "What are the implications of SEC Rule 10b-5 for my business?" It's no wonder that the typical lawyer would answer the first two questions for free. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of David A. Daniel Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:22 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: A conundrum Client to lawyer: How much do you charge? Lawyer: $300 for 3 questions. Client: Isn't that a lot? Lawyer: Yes. Now what is your last question? DAD : Re: A conundrum ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- --- On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:29 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Can I ask you another question? "'Tain't funny, McGee!":-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:44:26 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:44:26 +0000 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041412.p74AtreQ025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Maybe it's a matter of synesthesia: The coldest time of night is (often) just before (or at) dawn. --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Aug 4 14:49:48 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:49:48 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: A<12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782824A245DE0@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu.yale.edu> Message-ID: It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter again. Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shapiro, Fred Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Perplexing Proverb A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 14:55:51 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:55:51 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108041416.p74EG9fS021930@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: I do like that "morbific". Seems to be begging for a contemporary extension into "morberrific!" LH On Aug 4, 2011, at 10:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: > > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. > > ... > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) > > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Thu Aug 4 15:09:25 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:09:25 +0000 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' Message-ID: Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has undergone surgical improvement." --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 15:46:04 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:46:04 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108041416.p74AlZKO028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between "infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation poisoning". But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into the recency fallacy on this one. I had to think about that expression for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are the lemmas simply too broad? VS-) PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access again in a few days. On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: > > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. > > 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with > some quality or property by immersion or infusion. > b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying > substance, or active principle, as poison, or > salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) > > ?? 2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to > spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, > or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) > > 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious > qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious > corruption or the germs of disease; to render > injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 > > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) > > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 15:50:59 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:50:59 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A quick look in GB gives about 100 ghits for "infected by poison", including "tenants infected by poison ivy". There is only one hit for "infected by poisoning"--and that's a 1986 translation from Russian: "badly infected by poisoning from the wire shackles" I'll look at the dates more closely when I get a chance. VS-) On 8/4/11, victor steinbok wrote: > I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd > want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there > is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different > from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between > "infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation > poisoning". But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into > the recency fallacy on this one. I had to think about that expression > for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of > the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is > inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a > stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are > closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal > or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the > bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one > be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any > kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. > Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but > then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was > obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to > the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are > the lemmas simply too broad? > > VS-) > > PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access > again in a few days. > > On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: >> >> To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. >> bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. >> >> 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with >> some quality or property by immersion or infusion. >> b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying >> substance, or active principle, as poison, or >> salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) >> >> ?? 2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to >> spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, >> or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) >> >> 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious >> qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious >> corruption or the germs of disease; to render >> injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 >> >> 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the >> body) with disease; to communicate a morbific >> virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; >> to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) >> >> [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or >> disease.] >> >> Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Aug 4 15:57:58 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 10:57:58 -0500 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <7C1C1BAC638C714AB90EA1C2F0E2F399046B5AA3@PHEXCH.stradley.com> Message-ID: paul johnson If you have to stand a night watch in the military or civilian life, it seems to go forever. On 8/4/2011 9:49 AM, Baker, John wrote: > It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its > least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter > again. Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is > closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Shapiro, Fred > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Perplexing Proverb > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog > has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange > proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all > understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are > usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not > scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can > anyone help me to understand this? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- Blunt force trauma It's better to give than to receive. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Thu Aug 4 16:06:11 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 11:06:11 -0500 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: paul johnson None of us may like it, but if we have Jewish friends or even worse Jewish in-laws you don't discuss Israel. As a Gentile, you are automatically disqualified. Much the same with whites and blacks. It's hard to be civil while tiptoeing on egg shells and that's in public dialogue, in written discourse, one certainty is that someone's going to end up offended. On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > This was supposed to go to everyone but didn't: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Jonathan Lighterwrote: > >> Harris got bashed and re-bashed in the '60s. The fact that was a Geirgia >> white man didn't help. >> >> I guarandamntee you that when I watched Disney's "Song of the South" at the >> age of about seven, it never occurred to me that anynody was parodying >> anything. Uncle Remus was a great. The animals had no race. The tar baby >> was made out of tar. >> >> Years later I read many of the original stories and found nothing >> offensive. But of course, I'm disqualified as a judge in some extreme >> quarters. >> >> The rap against the Uncle Remus stories seems to be: >> >> 1. As a white man, Harris was not authorized to write about black people, >> even though Uncle Remus is clearly intended to be no more than an Aesop >> figure. >> >> 2. Harris has Remus speak in dialect, which is degrading and insulting. >> (When Huck Finn speaks in dialect, that's degrading and insulting too, >> but only because he uses the N-word.) >> >> 3. Remus never protests racism. >> >> 4. There isn't enough racism in the stories for Remus to protest: so Harris >> lies to children about the South. >> >> 5. Remus exists only to tell clever stories to a wealthy little white kid. >> So instead of Superfly, he's just an Amos 'n Andy fantasy. >> >> 6. Harris dreamed up most of the stories instead of being a black man >> telling authentic folk tales passed down over the centuries from Africa. >> >> But the point is that I never took the tar baby to be a slam at black >> people. I suppose the "baby" might have been made of, I don't >> know, vanilla-wafer dough instead of black tar, but then Br'er Rabbit >> wouldn't have gotten quite as stuck. >> >> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. All >> after "Song >> of the South." >> >> JL >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Ron Butters wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Ron Butters >>> Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> "parody for white readers" strikes me as wrong on two counts. Was it >>> really parody, or simply dialect literature (a genre that was extremely >>> popular in its day)? And were nonwhites forbidden to read it and enjoy it? >>> >>> Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE >>> >>> ------Original Message------ >>> From: Herb Stahlke >>> To: >>> Date: Thursday, August 4, 2011 12:43:22 AM GMT-0400 >>> Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "tar baby" in the news >>> >>> Wilson, >>> >>> Back in the forties, when I was little, I had an Uncle Remus story >>> book including the tar baby story. I remember the picture of the tar >>> baby looking very like a cartoon image of a black baby. Harris used >>> eye dialect to parody black speech for white readers, so I suspect the >>> racism of the image wasn't accidental, even if he may not have been >>> responsible for the specific illustration in my story book. >>> >>> Herb >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: Wilson Gray >>>> Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Laurence Horn >>> wrote: >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>>>> Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society >>>>> Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn >>>>> Subject: ? ? ? "tar baby" in the news >>>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> U.S. representative apologizes for 'tar baby' comment >>>>> >>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/08/02/us.rep.tar.baby/index.html >>>>> >>>>> LH >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>>> >>>> "It can refer to a sticky problem or situation but _[it] also is >>>> understood as a derogatory term for African-Americans_." >>>> >>>> Really? I did not know that. >>>> >>>> FWIW, back in the day - who knows what PC hath wrought since the '70's >>>> - The Compton, California - the Hub City - High School used "Tartars" >>>> as the nickname of its athletic teams. Those teams were routinely >>>> referred to in the greater Los Angeles metropolitan-area press as the >>>> >>>> _Tar-Babies_ >>>> >>>> At the time, it struck me as trivially odd that the Compton High >>>> student body was apparently cool with the school's teams being named >>>> after a "graven image," so to speak, of a baby made out of tar. OTOH, >>>> in those days, it was certainly true that schools that had to play >>>> against the Tar-Babies usually found themselves in a sticky situation. >>>> >>>> That "tar-baby" was ever a reference to black people, individually or >>>> severally, living or dead, real or imagined, even now, strikes me as >>>> unreal, and I ain't going for it. >>>> >>>> Maybe I need to _read_ me some Joel Chandler Harris. My only knowledge >>>> of this masterpiece is based on the Disney cartoon strip, based upon >>>> the "Uncle Remus" tales, that once appeared in the Sunday funny >>>> papers. If the tar-baby in the relevant tale was intended to represent >>>> a stereotypical, infant pickaninny, well, as is the case WRT the >>>> author of _Hole in the Mattress_, I Mr. Cumpleetleigh. >>>> >>>> I think that this was yet another example of the Republican strategy >>>> of bending over backward WRT trivia - especially when the situation >>>> can be tarred with some refernce to race - but standing like a stone >>>> wall WRT important matters, such as being willing to bankrupt the >>>> country, if necessary, to ensure the success of their stated intention >>>> to destroy the Democrats in general and Obama in particular. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> -Wilson >>>> ----- >>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >>>> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >>>> -Mark Twain >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> > > -- Blunt force trauma It's better to give than to receive. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 16:41:32 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:41:32 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041450.p74AlZQm028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Baker, John wrote: > ? ? ? It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its > least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter > again. ? Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is > closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." > Is "at cock-crow" considered to be synonymous with "at dawn"? I ask because my experience is the following. My internal understanding of the word _dawn_ is that it refers to that moment in time when the horizon becomes "un-dark," so to speak. However, when I had the misfortune to be living where everybody routinely kept chickens, I was most unpleasantly surprised to discover that roosters have some sixth sense, such that they are able to intuit the instant of dawn and to begin to crow at a time when I was unable the descry upon the horizon even the least hint of what, according to my internal semantics, is "dawn." The problem for me was that it goes like this. The first rooster to see the dawn crows. Then the nearest rooster to that rooster crows, Then the next nearest. Then the next nearest, ad finitum. When that first rooster is finally unable to hear the echoing crows of his fellow roosters, he crows again. And, again, he is echoed down the line, until, finally, the point arrives at which any fool can plainly see the dawn and the crowing ceases. In my birthplace of Marshall, Texas, in the colored part of town, there was no part of any other kind of light beyond the moon and stars, once that everyone had gone to bed. My assumption is that, at one time in past, if not currently, the peasantry of Europe likewise enjoyed a somewhat-similar experience. The crowing of roosters signals the dawn. But, in point of fact, at the time that the first rooster crows, it's still pitch-fucking-black on the eastern horizon, as far as a random human eye can see. A random example from the way people looked at the dawn in the United States, as recently as 1913, taken from a WTF search in GB: "_[T]he moon had set, all was *pitchy* dark_ [precisely], except that, far in the east, just a tinge of grayness signaled the approach of dawn." And, had the author not been on the chicken-less western plains, cock-crow would long since have "signaled the *approach* of dawn. People say that "It's always darkest before the dawn" because, in fact, it so clearly is. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 17:05:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:05:04 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041558.p74AtrpC025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 11:57 AM, paul johnson wrote: > ? ? If you have to stand a night watch in the military or civilian > life, it seems to go forever. Ain't that the God's honest truth! Especially in the military, where simply quitting the job isn't an option. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 17:39:23 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:39:23 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041606.p74FHmK5030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's worse than you think, Paul. You don't have to be a gentile to get tagged as an antisemite for disagreeing with someone (even in the family) on Middle East policies. There are many subsets of expats and descendants whose filial piety does not allow others to criticize the country of their allegiance (well, as long as they align with the government ideologically). With some Russian immigrants it's the opposite--one cannot support the current government's policies without his mental capacity being questioned (Putin has now been identified with all the indiscretions of the past 90+ years). This, however, is not the case with the "tar baby". The simple rule of American politics is that you don't step into the same pile of shit that snared some of your predecessors. If it's something new, there may be some debate as to whether anyone is /legitimately/ offended (and, in some cases, e.g., the DC flap over "niggardly", the collective judgments tilts against those being offended). But the issue of "tar baby" has come up before, both during the presidential campaign and after Obama was elected. In some cases, there was no question of intended offense--just as was the case with references to watermelons, collards, fried chicken, etc. And it's been rehashed in the media enough that people should have paid attention lest they repeat the offense. And this is exactly what happened here--whether he intended to or not, the guy simply stepped into the same pile that's been disturbed before. It's a different question as to whether the /political/ discussion of this question should continue. He apologized, claimed ignorance, and, in the absence of further evidence of his offenses, the case should be dropped. But there is a collective state of victimhood on both sides that prevents this from happening. And that's not a language issue. VS-) On 8/4/11, paul johnson wrote: > None of us may like it, but if we have Jewish friends or even worse > Jewish in-laws you don't discuss Israel. As a Gentile, you are > automatically disqualified. Much the same with whites and blacks. It's > hard to be civil while tiptoeing on egg shells and that's in public > dialogue, in written discourse, one certainty is that someone's going to > end up offended. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 17:44:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 13:44:41 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041426.p74AlZqj030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I never took the tar baby to be a slam at black >> people. Me, neevuh. OTOH, I'm in a sufficiently-extreme quarter to believe that minstrel-show blackface is still blackface, even though its perpetrators were just ordinary Joes trying to make a buck at the expense of those who have no means of protecting themselves from exploitation. What could be more American than that? It's the Republican dream! If I take your shotgun and, purely accidentally, with absolutely no malice aforethought or otherwise intended, accidentally blow your head off, your lucky ass is still as dead as it would be, if I had plotted your murder for dekkids. OTTH, I'm shocked, SHOCKED! to discover that there is documentary evidence that someone ever felt that it was all right for the otherwise pure-as-the-driven-snow, newborn-lambly-innercent tar-baby to be co-opted as a term of opprobrium for blacks by random sheetheads. And what's the deal with the colored Spiderboy? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 18:27:14 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:27:14 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <7C1C1BAC638C714AB90EA1C2F0E2F399046B5AA3@PHEXCH.stradley.c om> Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 10:49 AM, Baker, John wrote: > It is a factual statement that the amount of light is at its >least point (i.e., it is darkest) just before it begins to grow lighter >again. Of course, this implies an understanding of "dawn" that is >closer to "just after midnight" than to "sunrise." But with this definition one might have two or more dawns per night. (Multiple local minima.) Joel >John Baker > > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf >Of Shapiro, Fred >Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Perplexing Proverb > >A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog >has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange >proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all >understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are >usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not >scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can >anyone help me to understand this? > >Fred Shapiro > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 18:26:46 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:26:46 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041739.p74HE7ws028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:39 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > the > collective judgments tilts against those being offended As should surely be the case, here. But I often find myself behind the curve, non-distinct from the most blatant racist. E.g., I've never been able to see how it could be the case that it should have come to be the case that referring to people of East-Asians descent as "Orientals" should suddenly be perceived as a supposed insult, after dekkids of dekkids of ordinary use. Of course, what such people should be called is of no real concern to me. However, that I found having to make this very trivial semantic shift to be a gigantic, how-can-"Oriental"-possibly-be-construed-as-some-kind-of-insult-by-those-people?-why-I've-been-using-it-all-my-life-without-the-least-intent-to-insult-anyone! pain in the ass puts me on the same level as any other casual racist-in-the-broad-sense. But, it wasn't *my* ox that was being gored. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 18:35:57 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:35:57 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041827.p74Atr4A025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > two or more dawns per > night. ? (Multiple _local_ minima.) Is that not, in fact, the case? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 4 18:41:18 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:41:18 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 11:46 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd >want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there >is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different >from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between >"infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation >poisoning". "Infected with the "... Spirit" belongs to one of the later, less literal/physical/medical senses (4b and ff.) that I omitted. >But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into >the recency fallacy on this one. My guess. But I agree that if someone says "I've been infected", I look for horses, not zebras (germs, not radioactivity). >I had to think about that expression >for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of >the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is >inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a >stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are >closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal >or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the >bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one >be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any >kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. To me the distinction is that both germs and radiation are "agents" that can "infect", whereas headache, stroke, broken bones are agent-unknown. Although some possibly might say things like "infected [by an ear-wig] with a headache", when an agent is hypothesized. >Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but >then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was >obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to >the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are >the lemmas simply too broad? Perhaps the meaning (of 1b, 2, and 3) has re-broadened, or perhaps they have not been looked at more recently than 1853, 1693, and 1885 respectively. Joel >VS-) > >PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access >again in a few days. > >On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > Seems like an old and honored sense. From the OED: > > > > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. > > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. > > > > 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with > > some quality or property by immersion or infusion. > > b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying > > substance, or active principle, as poison, or > > salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. (1550 through 1853) > > > > ?2. To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to > > spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, > > or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. (1440 through 1693) > > > > 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious > > qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious > > corruption or the germs of disease; to render > > injurious to health. [I.e., not only with germs.] (1480 through 1885 > > > > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the > > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific > > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; > > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. (c1386 through 1845) > > > > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] > > > > Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 18:50:02 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 14:50:02 -0400 Subject: "Early-Bird[ Reservation]s Almost Sold _Through_." Message-ID: Shouldn't that be, "Sold _Out_" ? >From an ad for a conference to be held in L.A. and sponsored by an American technology publication. They must have outsourced their pr's, then had the resulting copy grammar-checked by a computer. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:14:58 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:14:58 -0400 Subject: infected by radiation poisoning In-Reply-To: <201108041841.p74FHm0R030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Below is an excerpt from an article about civil defense in 1962 aimed at the general public. During a Q & A the author says that one cannot be infected by radiation. The word "infect" was in use before the germ theory of disease was propounded and accepted. The multiple senses of infect have changed over time and have been influenced by scientific thought, I think. The example from 1985 below shows that the writer does believe an individual can be "infected by radiation" in the domain of comic books. Cite: 1962 November 22, Bladen Journal, Civil Defense In Bladen by Captain Ted Fox, Page 4, Column 4, Elizabethtown, North, Carolina. (Google News Archive) Q. If I have been infected by radiation, can I give it to my children? A. No. It is not a disease. It doesn't "infect" anybody. The gamma rays damage the person through which they pass ??? no one else. Cite: 1985 October 4, Milwaukee Sentinel, TV Today: Remake Of 'Long Hot Summer' Sizzles by Duane Dudek, Part 3, Page 2, GNA Page 25, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (Google News Archive) The X-Men and the Fantastic Four remain vivid, tales of normal folks infected by radiation and afflicted with super and paranormal powers. On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: ? ? ? Re: infected by radiation poisoning > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/4/2011 11:46 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> >>I don't have OED access this minute (and for another week), but I'd >>want to look at the examples. It would be interesting to see if there >>is any frequency to "infected with poison", which is still different >>from "infected with ... poisoning". There is also a difference between >>"infected with the [Holy] Spirit" and "infected with radiation >>poisoning". > > "Infected with the "... Spirit" belongs to one of > the later, less literal/physical/medical senses (4b and ff.) that I omitted. > >>But I would not at all be surprised if I've fallen into >>the recency fallacy on this one. > > My guess. ? But I agree that if someone says "I've > been infected", I look for horses, not zebras (germs, not radioactivity). > >>I had to think about that expression >>for a bit and still came to the conclusion that it was odd. A part of >>the problem, for me, is that in radiation poisoning the agent is >>inanimate. Can one be "infected with a headache"? "infected with a >>stroke"? "infected with broken bones"? I wonder, because these are >>closer to radiation than to germs or spirit--but there is no "personal >>or material agent" (except for someone who might have broken the >>bones, a blood clot that might have caused the stroke, etc.). Can one >>be infected with a hereditary disorder or a genetic mutation of any >>kind? Nominally, none of these would be barred by these definitions. > > To me the distinction is that both germs and > radiation are "agents" that can "infect", whereas > headache, stroke, broken bones are > agent-unknown. ? Although some possibly might say > things like "infected [by an ear-wig] with a > headache", when an agent is hypothesized. > >>Of course, 1. would apply to poisons (it literally mentions them), but >>then it's "obsolete or rare"--and perhaps was rare before it was >>obsolete. The same can be said about 2. And 3. and 4. are closer to >>the currently standard meaning--but has the meaning narrowed or are >>the lemmas simply too broad? > > Perhaps the meaning (of 1b, 2, and 3) has > re-broadened, or perhaps they have not been > looked at more recently than 1853, 1693, and 1885 respectively. > > Joel > > >>VS-) >> >>PS: no need to post all the examples on my account. I'll have access >>again in a few days. >> >>On 8/4/11, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> > >> > Seems like an old and honored sense. ? From the OED: >> > >> > To imbue a person or thing with certain (esp. >> > bad) qualities; said either of the personal or material agent. >> > >> > ? 1. trans. To affect, influence, or imbue with >> > some quality or property by immersion or infusion. >> > b. To impregnate or imbue with some qualifying >> > substance, or active principle, as poison, or >> > salt; to taint. Obs. or rare. ? (1550 through 1853) >> > >> > ???To affect injuriously or unpleasantly; to >> > spoil or corrupt by noxious influence, admixture, >> > or alloy; to adulterate. Obs. ? (1440 through 1693) >> > >> > 3. To impregnate or taint with deleterious >> > qualities; to fill (the air, etc.) with noxious >> > corruption or the germs of disease; to render >> > injurious to health. ? [I.e., not only with germs.] ? (1480 through 1885 >> > >> > 4. a. To affect (a person, animal, or part of the >> > body) with disease; to communicate a morbific >> > virus or noxious germs so as to generate disease; >> > to act upon by infection or contagion. Also absol. ? (c1386 through 1845) >> > >> > [And then various senses less literally related to noxiousness or disease.] >> > >> > Joel >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:15:09 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:15:09 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041412.p74AlZJO028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My WAG: the original proverb was "Dark is the hour before the dawn". "Dark is" was misheard as "darkest", and the proverb was miscommunicated to fit "darkest". Scanning GB, it is around 1850 that the phrase begins to be used to represent periods preceding momentous change: Aunt Anne's History of England on Christian principles - Page 138 Anne (aunt, pseud.) - 1849 - Free Google eBook - Read "But the times of which I have been writing have been justly called the dark ages of England ; it was indeed that dark hour before the dawn of the bright day of the Reformation" DanG On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Perplexing Proverb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:33:10 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:33:10 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041827.p74HE74s028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson, nobody in his right mins could disagree with your charaterization of minstrel shows. But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me forty years ago. I have to assume that whatever his deepest private feelings about race may have been (and they were undoubtedly not up to current snuff), when his stories appeared in the 1880s and after, they were generally thought of as progressive: races and classes united through stories told by a shrewd, affable but hardly clownish slave. And to the extent that they were versions of genuine African-American folktales, they proved that said folktales were as intelligent and meaningful as any of the European persuasion. The white kid in the stories was an idealized JCH himself. Sentimental? Simplistic? What in popular culture isn't? Just showing off for a moment: _Uncle Tom's Cabin_ painted so heart-rending a picture of slavery that Lincoln said he thought Harriet Beecher Stowe could have started the Civil War all by herself. When I was in high school, however, it was dismissed as sentimental trash. When I was in college, it was doubly sentimental trash because written by an unauthorized and obviously clueless white woman. Ten years later, it was a key document of the American canon, because it effectively, passionately, denounced slavery and was written by a brilliantly perceptive white woman. My point about Harris isn't that he was a second Mark Twain (one of his many friends, BTW) or that Uncle Remus is a compleat literary figure; only that it's as overdetermined to find evil in Uncle Remus as it is to find it in _Huckleberry Finn_. Or, as Mad magazine once paraphrased the motto in a different context entirely, "Honey, why did you swat Mel in the pants"? JL On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 1:39 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > the > > collective judgments tilts against those being offended > > As should surely be the case, here. > > But I often find myself behind the curve, non-distinct from the most > blatant racist. E.g., I've never been able to see how it could be the > case that it should have come to be the case that referring to people > of East-Asians descent as "Orientals" should suddenly be perceived as > a supposed insult, after dekkids of dekkids of ordinary use. > > Of course, what such people should be called is of no real concern to > me. However, that I found having to make this very trivial semantic > shift to be a gigantic, > > how-can-"Oriental"-possibly-be-construed-as-some-kind-of-insult-by-those-people?-why-I've-been-using-it-all-my-life-without-the-least-intent-to-insult-anyone! > pain in the ass puts me on the same level as any other casual > racist-in-the-broad-sense. > > But, it wasn't *my* ox that was being gored. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 19:50:37 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:50:37 -0400 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108041437.p74AlZNe028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I recommend, > > "Hey! I got a question for you, asshole!" > > Far less irritating. On the other hand, plain "Hey! Asshole!" would just be > rude. Unfortunately, attempting to be polite by asking permission to ask a question necessarily entails asking a question before permission to ask a question can be granted. What's a mother(fucker) to do? A friend has suggested following the example of German and _stating_ that "What I would like to ask is whether I may ask a question. Unfortunately, this friend also prescriptively wishes to exclude _can I?_ from the conversation on "logical" grounds, since only The Shadow knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 4 19:55:03 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 12:55:03 -0700 Subject: A conundrum In-Reply-To: <201108041951.p74AtrFg025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 12:50 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> I recommend, >> >> "Hey! I got a question for you, asshole!" >> >> Far less irritating. On the other hand, plain "Hey! Asshole!" would just be >> rude. > > Unfortunately, attempting to be polite by asking permission to ask a > question necessarily entails asking a question before permission to > ask a question can be granted. > > What's a mother(fucker) to do? Just like "How are you?" is not a question about your interlocutor's health, so "May I ask a question?" should be interpreted as a means of easing social interactions. This also obviates the need for cussing. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 20:04:42 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:04:42 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108041933.p74AtrEq025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me forty > years ago. IMO, Harris's stories are _still_ absolutely harmless, WRT their intended audience. Always have been. Always will be. Harris probably had not the least idea that slaves would ever read anything at all, let alone his very audience-specific work. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 20:13:59 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:13:59 -0400 Subject: Two books of possible interest In-Reply-To: <201108031817.p73AlkXn031364@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another of possible interest: Easy Bukharian : Language of the Bukharian Jews : Study Guide by Imanuel Rybakov Country: USA, Language: English New York: The Association of the Bukharian Jewish Youth of the USA Achdut-Unity, 2011. 250 p. ISBN: 9781936755004 -- -Wilson Gray ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: ? ? ? Two books of possible interest > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I pass along the following announcement fyi. ? The first book has several items pertaining to English etymology and the second one may be of interest to onomasticians. > > Incidentally, I have no financial interest in either item. > > G. Cohen > > ________________________________ > > From: jewish-languages at googlegroups.com on behalf of Sarah Benor > Sent: Tue 8/2/2011 2:20 PM > To: JEWISH LANGUAGES > Subject: [Jewish Languages] Fwd: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST > > > Dear JL list, > David Gold asked me to forward this annoucement. > Sarah > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: David Gold > Date: Fri, Jul 29, 2011 at 7:49 AM > Subject: TWO BOOKS OF GERMANIC, JEWISH, ROMANCE, AND SLAVIC LINGUISTIC INTEREST > > > > ? ? The Press of the University of Alicante announces the publication of David L. Gold's Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Slavic, and Romance Languages). Enclosed is an attachment which gives details about the book as well as about Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography, of which he is the editor. > > > > Two Books of Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Linguistic Interest > > > > Gold, David L. 2009. Studies in Etymology and Etiology (With Emphasis on Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic Languages) / Selected and Edited, with a Foreword, by F??lix Rodr??guez Gonz??lez and Antonio Lillo Buades. Alicante. Publicaciones de la Universidad de Alicante. 870 pages. ISBN 978-84-7908-517-9. > > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? Dictionaries usually give only brief treatment to etymologies and even etymological dictionaries often do not lavish on them the attention they deserve. To help fill the gap, the author deals in depth with several etymologically problematic words in various Germanic, Jewish, Romance, and Slavic languages, all of which have hitherto either been misetymologized or not etymologized at all (the three most detailed chapters - 14, 16, and 31 - are respectively 104, 130, and 134 pages long). Sometimes, he succeeds in cracking the nut; sometimes, he is able only to clear away misunderstanding; but always he endeavors to set the stage for further serious treatment, as in the several chapters disproving or doubting a Yiddish or Hebrew origin for certain English lexemes. > > Usually, the author marshals not only linguistic but also historical and cultural information, his approach thus being both linguistic and philological. He deals too with etiology, an often essential but not infrequently neglected component of etymological research. For example, dictionaries in all languages that include a lexeme translating literally as 'Molotov cocktail' not only misetymologize it but also either fail to etiologize it (why does it commemorate Vyatsheslav Mikhailovitsh Molotov?) or misetiologize it. Chapter 10 (42 pages), based in part on an examination of relevant Finnish military terms and other Finnish sources, presents, for the first time, the right etymology and the right etiology. > > Since this book, which consists of thirty studies in English and one in romanized Yiddish, discusses methodology (notably in chapter 11 but also in most others), it has the makings of an introduction to the science, art, and craft of etymology. > > The titles of the studies are: > > > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 1. The Alleged Russian Origin of French bistro ~ bistrot 'wine merchant; public house' Versus Its Probable Ultimate Origin in Vulgar Latin or Gallo-Romance (On the Persistence of a Folk Etymology and Folk Etiology Despite the Suggestion of Better Etymologies) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 2. The Origin of Chicano Spanish blanquillo 'testicle' (On How Emulated Dyosemy Can Defeat the Purpose of a Euphemism) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 3. The British English Origin of Informal Israeli Hebrew braso > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 4. American English Slang copacetic 'fine, all right' Has No Hebrew, Yiddish, or Other Jewish Connection > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 5. The American English Slangism fink Probably Has No Jewish Connection > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 6. Definite and Possible English Reflexes of Spanish garbanzo 'chickpea' > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 7. Originally American English glitz, glitz up, and glitzy Probably Have No Yiddish Connection > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 8. Towards a Dossier on the Still Unclear Immediate Etymon(s?) of American English Slang hooker 'whore' (With Remarks on the Origin of American English Barnegat, Dixie, fly ~ vlei ~ vley ~ vlaie ~ vly, Gramercy Park, Hell Gate, jazz, sloughter, and Spuyten Duyvil) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 9. American English jitney 'five-cent coin; sum of five cents' Has No Apparent Jewish or Russian Connection and May Come from (Black?) Louisiana French jetn??e (On the Increasing Difficulty of Harvesting All the Grain) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 10. Etymology and Etiology in the Study of Eponymous Lexemes: The Case of English Molotov cocktail and Finnish Molotovin koktaili > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 11. Nine Criteria for Assessing the Likelihood of Yiddish Influence on English (With Examples) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 12. English paparazzo < Italian paparazzo = Commonization of the Label Name Paparazzo (in Federico Fellini's La Dolce Vita) < ? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 13. New York City English parky 'park-keeper' Is Probably a Spontaneous Coinage Rather than a Borrowing from British English > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 14. When Chauvinism Interferes in Etymological Research: A Few Observations on the Supposed Vulgar Latin Derivation of Rumanian pastrama ~ pastrama, a Noun of Immediate Turkish Origin (With Preliminary Remarks on Related Words in Albanian, Arabic, Armenian, English, French, Greek, Hebrew, Judezmo, Polish, Russian, SerboCroatian, Spanish, Turkish, Ukrainian, and Yiddish) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 15. An Immediate or Non-Immediate Jewish Connection for Dutch poeha and Variants (> Afrikaans bohaai > South African English bohaai), French brouhaha (> English brouhaha), French Brou, brou, ha, ha, Brou, ha, ha, High German buhai and Variants, Low German buh?? and Variants, or Modern West Frisian bahey and Variants Has Not Been Proven (With Remarks on the Jewish Italian or Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Arezzo Dialectal barruccaba and the Liturgical Hebrew Origin of Italian badanai) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 16. Mexican Spanish sarape ~ zarape (Whence American English sarape ~ serape ~ serapi ~ zarape and French sarap?? ~ s??rap??), a Word Possibly from Tarascan /'charakwa/, Probably Has No Jewish or Iranian Connection > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 17. Is Slang American English schnook ~ shnook 'pitifully meek person' from Informal High German Schnuck' 'a kind of small sheep', Northeastern Yiddish shnuk '[elephant's] trunk; snout [of other animals]', or Plattduetsch Schn??ck 'snail'? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 18. Whence American English scrod and Grimsby English scrob? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 19. Does American English shack 'shanty' Come From One or More Uto-Aztecan Languages of the American Plains? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 20. The Etymology of English spiel and spieler and Scots English bonspiel > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 21. English Star Chamber Has No Jewish Connection > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 22. Who Can Decipher (Yiddish?) *"bashtem" and (Yiddish?) *"ghop bagi"? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 23. The (Solely Southeastern?) Yiddish Cloth Name taniklot and the Rare American English Baking Term poolish 'leaven, starter, starter dough' > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 24. An Instance of Convergence: Frisian witte and Yiddish mideye > > ? ? ? ? ? 25. A Few English Words Misattributed to Yiddish (finagle, finical, finick, toco, trantle, and trantlum); a Yiddish-Origin English Word Misetymologized for at Least Sixty-One Years (bopkes); a Misetymologized Yiddish Pen Name (shmul niger); and a Misetymologized Eastern Yiddish Word (yavne-veyasne!) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 26. Etymological and Sociolinguistic Notes of Czech and Jewish or Possible Jewish Interest (On Czech fizl, frajle, hajzl, H??ra, ketas, mecheche, misuge ~ misuke, Nabuchodonozor ~ Nabukadnezar, pajzl, pejzy, smelina, smelin??r, smok; Yiddish di alt-naye shul, peyem ~ peym; Olomouc in Yiddish Lexemes; Franz Kafka's Early Linguistic History; and the Investigation of Yiddish in Bohemia and Moravia) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 27. On the Probable Kenaanic Origin of Two Eastern Yiddish Kin Terms, zeyde 'grandfather' and bobe 'grandmother' > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 28. Zinfandel: An American English Grape and Wine Name of Immediate Hungarian, Moravian Czech, and/or Slovak Origin (On How the Origin of a Significans Need Not Be Parallel to the Origin of the Corresponding Significatum) > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 29. Nokh a por dugmes fun der yidisher hashpoe af ivrit > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 30. Some More Israeli Hebrew Items of German Origin > > ? ? ? ? ? ? 31. Jewish Dickensiana, Part One: Despite Popular Belief, the Name Fagin in Charles Dickens's Oliver Twist Has No Jewish Connection (With Appendixes on Some Laws Concerning Personal Names and on Dickens's Authentic Yiddish Name) > > > > *** > > > > Since prices may change, none is indicated below. Please check before ordering. > > > > > > Ordering in North America: > > > > If ordering the print version by credit card: > > > > http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=5356817830&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3DStudies%2Bin%Etymology%2Band%2Betiology%26x%3D0%26y%3D0 > > > > If ordering the print version through a PayPal account, please ask Digitalia for a link: > > > > Digitalia (attention: Lluis Claret) > > 708 Third Av (6 fl) > > New York NY 10017-4119 > > U S A > > > > telephone 1- 212 209-3980 > > > > fax 1-347 626-2388 > > > > http://lclaret @digitalia.us > > > > If ordering the ebook Kindle version: > > > > http://www.amazon.com/ETYMOLOGY-ETIOLOGY-EMPHASIS-LANGUAGES-ebook/dp/B004D500BM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311625551&sr=8-1 > > > > If ordering access to the ebook pdf version online (for individuals or libraries): > > > > http://www.digitalia.us > > > > Ordering in Mexico: > > > > Universo Bibliogr??fico, SA de CV > > C/ Norte, 21 A, n.?? 5212 > > Colonia Nuevo Vallejo > > M??xico DF 07750 > > > > telephone (55) 5233 6144 > > > > fax (55) 2453 8847 > > > > http://www.ubisa @cablevision.net.mx > > > > Ordering in Argentina: > > > > Jorge Waldhuter, Distribuci??n de libros > > Camarones 1526 (C1416ECD) > > Ciudad Aut??noma de Buenos Aires > > > > fax 54 11 4-585-7562 > > > > http:www.jwalibros at ciudad.com.ar > > > > Ordering in other countries of Latin America: > > > > Pujol i Amad?? > > C/ Cuenca 35 > > 17220 Sant Feliu de Gu??xols > > Girona > > Espa??a > > > > telephone and fax 011 34 972 323 366 > > > > http://www.bernat @pujolamado.com > > > > Ordering in other countries: > > > > Celesa > > C/ Laurel 21 > > ES-28005 Madrid / Spain > > > > telephone 011 34 915 17 01 70 > > > > fax 011 34 915 17 34 81 > > > > Other matters: > > > > Servei de Publicacions > > Universitat d'Alacant > > Campus de Sant Vicent del Raspeig > > Apartat de Correus 99 > > ES-03080 Alacant > > Spain > > > > telephone 011 34 96 5 90 3480 > > > > fax 011 34 96 5 90 9445 > > > > http://www.publicaciones.ua.es > > > > > > *** > > > > > > Singerman, Robert. 2001. Jewish Given Names and Family Names: A New Bibliography. Edited by David L. Gold. Leiden. Brill. x + 245 pp. ISBN 90 04 12189 7. > > > > Brill Academic Publishers > > Plantijnstraat 2 > > Postbus 9000 > > NL-2300 PA Leiden > > The Netherlands > > > > http://www.brill.nl/catalogue/productinfo.asp?product=9681 > > > > > > *** > > > > > > If you have any problem ordering either book or if you want to get a notice of > > > > D.L.G.'s next publication, please send a message to: > > > > dovedleyzer at yahoo.com > > > > (Notices of new publications will no longer be sent by postal mail.) > > -- > Jewish Languages > http://groups.google.com/group/jewish-languages/ > To post: send a message to jewish-languages at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe: send a blank message to jewish-languages+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 20:24:58 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 16:24:58 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 3:15 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > My WAG: the original proverb was "Dark is the hour before the dawn". > "Dark is" was misheard as "darkest", and the proverb was > miscommunicated to fit "darkest". > > Scanning GB, it is around 1850 that the phrase begins to be used to > represent periods preceding momentous change: Maybe, but I was struck by one citing of the proverb in something like the modern form by one of the officers fighting for the Revolutionary cause in 1776. (McCullough includes a lot of quotes from letters of officers and soldiers to their friends or families.) Unfortunately when I heard this a few weeks ago on the audiobook of David McCullough's _1776_, a chronicle of the downs and ups of that year, it was prior to the current thread, so I didn't record who said it, but the *when* was, in fact, 1776, and it was used precisely to refer to the hoped-for (and eventually achieved) "momentous change" in the fight for independence (or "independency", as it seems to have mostly been called at the time). LH > > Aunt Anne's History of England on Christian principles - Page 138 > Anne (aunt, pseud.) - 1849 - Free Google eBook - Read > "But the times of which I have been writing have been justly called > the dark ages of England ; it was indeed that dark hour before the > dawn of the bright day of the Reformation" > > DanG > > > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Perplexing Proverb >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 20:26:26 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:26:26 +0000 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041444.p74AlZxD030461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If the old lamplighter put the lights out at midnight, then early morning is darker than late evening. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Charles C Doyle > Subject: Re: Perplexing Proverb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe it's a matter of synesthesia: The coldest time of night is (often) just before (or at) dawn. > > --Charlie > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Shapiro, Fred [fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:08 AM > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 21:03:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: "... which of these two hypotheses is more _nearly_ correct ..." Message-ID: That's the format that had to be used in order to pass tests, in my grade-school and high-school years, given that _correct_ is an absolute: X is correct; otherwise, X is necessarily incorrect. Logically, nothing can be _more_ correct than _correct_. However, IME, examples of the prescribed syntagm in the wild have always been hard to find. Of course, the use of _more_ and not _most_ in this environment is also prescribed. This find is museum-worthy!;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 21:40:59 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 17:40:59 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108042005.p74HE7PM028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just to be clear we are talking about the same thing--the "Noble savage" stories were absolutely harmless at the time they were written. One hundred and fifty years later they don't look so harmless any more, although no one faults the AUTHORS for writing them /at that time/. Little Black Sambo has met an unfortunate literary faith long after it was written. Books called Nappy, Nappy Hair, Happy to Be Nappy, I Can Do My Own Nappy Hair, and Nappy Hair 101 were all written by African American authors, mostly about their own hair. But when one of the children's books showed up on the reading list in NYC, a number of parents--and some activists--were offended and made a big stink (chances are that the book was included precisely for multicultural reasons, so it's one PC faction fighting against another). So there is a question of who should be sensitive to what, when and why. I suspect that referring to the first black President as the "Tar-Baby" is not the most intelligent thing to do even if no offense is intended. In March, 2007, McCain apologized for his use of "tar-baby"--three years earlier, Kerry did not have to, as he was not referring to people. I don't remember what happened when Romney used it in reference to the Big Dig in 2006. But Colorado Springs is a different world, although it's not quite South Carolina. Apparently they never heard of these incidents in those parts. But there is also something to be said about the current anti-PC sentiment running on the right, where activists--and sometimes politicians--try to push the envelope on certain expressions just to see the reaction of the PC crowd. In common parlance, they are trying to make PC "heads explode". If they get caught and they get swamped by the tide, they figure they can just apologize. Most of the time, they just pretend that the comment is taken out of context. I am not sure what to make of this in Lamborn's case. He has not been the most skillful user of polite language. In 2007 he got into hot water when a Christian conservative couple wrote a letter to the editor of a local newspaper, complaining about Lamborn voting against an anti-dog-fighting law. "It prompted Lamborn to call the Barthas personally, leaving a message that said, '[T]here are consequences to this kind of thing, but I would like to work with you in a way that is best for everyone here concerned.' Shortly thereafter, Lamborn left another message in which he said, 'I'd rather resolve this on a Scriptural level but if you are unwilling to do that I will be forced to take other steps, which I would rather not have to do.' " VS-) On 8/4/11, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me >> forty >> years ago. > > IMO, Harris's stories are _still_ absolutely harmless, WRT their > intended audience. Always have been. Always will be. Harris probably > had not the least idea that slaves would ever read anything at all, > let alone his very audience-specific work. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Thu Aug 4 22:05:17 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 15:05:17 -0700 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" Message-ID: Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) You're the best listener that I've ever met You're my best friend Best friend with benefits What took me so long ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Thu Aug 4 22:05:25 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:05:25 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: If you look back to Chandler's originals, e.g., Uncle Remus, His Songs and His Sayings, http://books.google.com/books?id=Sw4ZAAAAYAAJ, or Uncle Remus and His Friends, http://books.google.com/books?id=6d9DAAAAYAAJ, Uncle Remus's animal stories are as free of racism as anyone could ask (unless you are bothered, as we may be but Chandler's readers were not, by the extensive use of dialect), but many of the other stories reflect the perspective we would expect in 19th century humorous writings featuring an ex-slave. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of victor steinbok Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 5:41 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "tar baby" in the news Just to be clear we are talking about the same thing--the "Noble savage" stories were absolutely harmless at the time they were written. One hundred and fifty years later they don't look so harmless any more, although no one faults the AUTHORS for writing them /at that time/. Little Black Sambo has met an unfortunate literary faith long after it was written. Books called Nappy, Nappy Hair, Happy to Be Nappy, I Can Do My Own Nappy Hair, and Nappy Hair 101 were all written by African American authors, mostly about their own hair. But when one of the children's books showed up on the reading list in NYC, a number of parents--and some activists--were offended and made a big stink (chances are that the book was included precisely for multicultural reasons, so it's one PC faction fighting against another). So there is a question of who should be sensitive to what, when and why. I suspect that referring to the first black President as the "Tar-Baby" is not the most intelligent thing to do even if no offense is intended. In March, 2007, McCain apologized for his use of "tar-baby"--three years earlier, Kerry did not have to, as he was not referring to people. I don't remember what happened when Romney used it in reference to the Big Dig in 2006. But Colorado Springs is a different world, although it's not quite South Carolina. Apparently they never heard of these incidents in those parts. But there is also something to be said about the current anti-PC sentiment running on the right, where activists--and sometimes politicians--try to push the envelope on certain expressions just to see the reaction of the PC crowd. In common parlance, they are trying to make PC "heads explode". If they get caught and they get swamped by the tide, they figure they can just apologize. Most of the time, they just pretend that the comment is taken out of context. I am not sure what to make of this in Lamborn's case. He has not been the most skillful user of polite language. In 2007 he got into hot water when a Christian conservative couple wrote a letter to the editor of a local newspaper, complaining about Lamborn voting against an anti-dog-fighting law. "It prompted Lamborn to call the Barthas personally, leaving a message that said, '[T]here are consequences to this kind of thing, but I would like to work with you in a way that is best for everyone here concerned.' Shortly thereafter, Lamborn left another message in which he said, 'I'd rather resolve this on a Scriptural level but if you are unwilling to do that I will be forced to take other steps, which I would rather not have to do.' " VS-) On 8/4/11, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me >> forty >> years ago. > > IMO, Harris's stories are _still_ absolutely harmless, WRT their > intended audience. Always have been. Always will be. Harris probably > had not the least idea that slaves would ever read anything at all, > let alone his very audience-specific work. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 4 22:09:24 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:09:24 -0400 Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) Message-ID: In June there was a discussion on this list about the fable/proverb concerning a lion and a gazelle. Here is a link to the initiating post in the archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;7fbbbcef.1106D Based on the content of some past messages there are some SF fans on the list who might have access to Analog magazine in 1986. I am trying to verify a citation that contains a variant of the proverb with an antelope, and it is difficult to find the appropriate issues in a library. Two matches in Google Books give conflicting information, but both matches indicate that the text below is supposed to appear on page 36 in an issue dated 1986: A lion wakes up each morning thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the slowest antelope." An antelope wakes up thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the fastest lion." A human wakes up thinking, "To hell with who's fastest, I'll outlast the bastards." I am trying to construct a full citation. Here is the conflicting information from GB: Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 79, Issues 4-6 Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 106, Issues 7-9 Here is a link into Google Books: http://goo.gl/bXSd6 http://books.google.com/books?id=DrEnAQAAIAAJ&q=%22antelope+wakes%22#search_anchor If a list member can find this quotation in Analog magazine and send me (or the list) the cite information that would be very kind. Knowing the name of the article and the author would be helpful. (Scans would be perfect if it is easy for you to create them, but providing the citation data by itself would be great. [Scans cannot be sent to the list, of course]) Thanks, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Thu Aug 4 22:23:19 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 18:23:19 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108042205.p74AtrNC025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. Neal On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Brian Hitchcock > Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) > > > > You're the best listener that I've ever met > You're my best friend > Best friend with benefits > What took me so long > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 4 23:12:19 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:12:19 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron Butters did not write what Wilson says he wrote. Ron Butters wrote I was questioning the seeming assertion that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people who wanted to read stories that belitted black people. I don't think Wilson and I have any disagreement about Harris's imagined audience. Harris was writing for a literate late-19th-Century audience (among whom would certainly have been people of color). His purpose was not to belittle or to cater to those who might have wanted to belittle. So why is Wilson so angry? On Aug 4, 2011, at 5:39 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >> _the seeming assertion_ that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people > > Rather, it is the _intended_ assertion. > > What other potential audience was there, when Harris wrote? > > However, I personally doubt that Harris's intended audience was > wasting psychic energy, whether positive or negative, on the question > of the belittling of a subgroup in which it was not necessary for that > audience to have any interest whatsoever. > > My WAG is that, if he did give a thought to that question, he would > have concluded only that his readership was seeking entertainment. > > And, of course, would anyone wish to claim that any white person has > ever written anything with the delectation of black people as his sole > motive or even as one of his motives? > > When the NYT BR or whatever notes that a work is intended "for a > general audience," does anyone ever think, > > Oh! This author wants black people to be able to read this book and > find it enjoyable and a worthy addition to their personal libraries, > too! How white of him! > > It is precisely the desire to cater to the taste of the colored > population that provides motivation for authors such as Herrnstein and > Murray, no doubt. > > My WAG is, "Probably not." > > Of course, > > Youneverknow. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 4 23:57:17 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:57:17 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not knowing the song, I was wondering whether the parsing at the time was [best friend] [with benefits] or {best [friend with benefits]]. Maybe it's hard to tell. LH On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. > > Neal > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Brian Hitchcock >> Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) >> >> >> >> You're the best listener that I've ever met >> You're my best friend >> Best friend with benefits >> What took me so long >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Fri Aug 5 00:02:41 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 00:02:41 +0000 Subject: "P.S." Message-ID: My 8-year-old grandson has been with me for a couple of days. He's a talkative little boy, and on several occasions he as followed a statement with "P.S."--then a further statement. It is not remarkable that he should be vocalizing a "script," but I don't know how he could know about the use of "P.S." itself. --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 00:34:21 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:34:21 -0400 Subject: Caption: Message-ID: "Miley Cyrus _Bikinis_ in Michigan" over a photo of Ms. Cyrus dressed in "a teeny brown bikini." "(to) wear a bikini" --> _(to) bikini_ Seems reasonable. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 00:49:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:49:13 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: <201108042312.p74AtrOg025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yours is certainly a reasoned reply, Ron. That evening of riotous fun at The Bacchae is still on! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:12 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Ronald Butters > Subject: ? ? ? Re: "tar baby" in the news > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ron Butters did not write what Wilson says he wrote. Ron Butters wrote > > I ? was questioning the seeming assertion that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people who wanted to read stories that belitted black people. > > I don't think Wilson and I have any disagreement about Harris's imagined audience. Harris was writing for a literate late-19th-Century audience (among whom would certainly have been people of color). His purpose was not to belittle or to cater to those who might have wanted to belittle. So why is Wilson so angry? > > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 5:39 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Ron Butters wrote: >>> _the seeming assertion_ that the intended audience for the Remus stories was exclusively white people >> >> Rather, it is the _intended_ assertion. >> >> What other potential audience was there, when Harris wrote? >> >> However, I personally doubt that Harris's intended audience was >> wasting psychic energy, whether positive or negative, on the question >> of the belittling of a subgroup in which it was not necessary for that >> audience to have any interest whatsoever. >> >> My WAG is that, if he did give a thought to that question, he would >> have concluded only that his readership was seeking entertainment. >> >> And, of course, would anyone wish to claim that any white person has >> ever written anything with the delectation of black people as his sole >> motive or even as one of his motives? >> >> When the NYT BR or whatever notes that a work is intended "for a >> general audience," does anyone ever think, >> >> Oh! This author wants black people to be able to read this book and >> find it enjoyable and a worthy addition to their personal libraries, >> too! How white of him! >> >> It is precisely the desire to cater to the taste of the colored >> population that provides motivation for authors such as Herrnstein and >> Murray, no doubt. >> >> My WAG is, "Probably not." >> >> Of course, >> >> Youneverknow. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 00:51:40 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:51:40 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in the news In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 03:33 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >But Harris's stories were absolutely harmless - or so it seemed to me forty >years ago. ... Just showing off for a moment: _Uncle Tom's >Cabin_ I think "Little Black Sambo" has a similar history of criticism to these two. On the other hand, and although I had perhaps no acquaintance with Harris's stories as a child, at some point in my aging I did come to understand "tar baby" as a derogatory term for a Negro child. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 01:24:27 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:24:27 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108041412.p74AlZJO028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog > has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb > "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of > the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying > commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest > just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. Language Log discussion here: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1764 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 01:34:57 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:34:57 -0400 Subject: narrative; graphic In-Reply-To: <201108041433.p74AtrgY025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think you are overstating the cynicism in its current usage. I was watching TV yesterday, and heard it used on the program "Necessary Roughness" to mean something close to 'my story', as something one will tell others about an incident. DanG On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:33 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And nobody says, "That's my narrative, and I'm sticking to it!" > > Yet. But it wouldn't be funny if they did, because it would be an obvious > admission of craft, unlike the potentially ambiguous "story." Any guilty > moron might say, "That's my story...," but only an > unapologetic political operator with an advanced degree would say, "That's > my narrative...." > > JL > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Charles C Doyle >> Subject: Re: narrative; graphic >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> As when PR specialists or damage-control experts or criminal lawyers and >> their clients meet to "decide on a narrative." >> >> --Charlie >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of >> Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 10:02 AM >> >> >> Garson, my feeling is that that's a transitional case. In other words, in >> 1994 no one would have noticed it. That "great narrative" I take to mean >> the >> "grand story," even if biased. And it refers chiefly to the past. >> >> In current usage, "their narrative" or "the narrative" usually refers to >> some cynical, partisan version of events, including events current and >> hoped-for. It's more like, "the half-truths they're feeding the suckers." >> >> >> JL >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Garson O'Toole > >wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Garson O'Toole >> > Subject: Re: narrative; graphic >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Jonathan Lighter wrote >> > > Tea Party theorist Dana Loesch on CNN today: >> > > >> > > "There are also three credit agencies that have already downgraded our >> > > credit rating. But you never hear about it because it's not part of the >> > > narrative. [The downgrades were] based on [Obama's] big spending." >> > >> > Here is a similar example, in my opinion, that uses the phrase "not >> > part of the great narrative" in 1994. >> > >> > New York Times >> > CHILDREN'S BOOKS; The New History: Showing Children the Dark Side >> > By Martha Saxton >> > Published: November 13, 1994 >> > >> > http://goo.gl/4PahY >> > >> > >> http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/13/books/children-s-books-the-new-history-showing-children-the-dark-side.html >> > >> > As long as women and blacks, American Indians, Asian-Americans and >> > others were not part of history, then what white men did to them was >> > not part of the great narrative of the nation. Now that all of our >> > pasts figure in our history, however, tragedy is never too distant and >> > celebration must share its place with reconciliation in the stories we >> > teach. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 01:54:26 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 21:54:26 -0400 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog >> has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb >> "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of >> the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying >> commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest >> just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it > resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to > be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. > > Language Log discussion here: > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1764 > Actually the links (especially with reference to the Goltz studies reported in Beitrage zur Lehre von den Functionen der Nervencentren des Frosches; Berlin: August Hirschwald, 1869) make it clear that a frog will indeed allow itself to be boiled when placed in a pot of gradually heated water, IF (and apparently only if) it is a decerebrated frog. And decerebrated frogs probably have an equally hard time figuring out whether or not it's darkest just before the dawn. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 02:26:33 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 22:26:33 -0400 Subject: Metaphor: Heating water slowly to kill a frog (was Perplexing Proverb) Message-ID: Ben Zimmer wrote: >> Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it >> resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to >> be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. I do not think that the truth or falsity of the "frog in hot water" anecdote has been ascertained. Have modern researchers actually attempted to replicate or debunk the earlier research that heated water at a very slow rate? Wikipedia is of course not a reliable reference, but volunteer editors have uncovered some intriguing citations to research performed in the 1800s. The entry on "Boiling frog" is worth examining: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_frog Here is excerpt from and pointer to a volume in 1897 titled "The New Psychology" by E. W. Scripture: A similar experiment showed that a live frog can actually be boiled without a movement if the water is heated slowly enough; in one experiment the temperature was raised at the rate of 0.0020 [degrees] C per second, and the frog was found dead at the end of 2 1/2 hours without having moved. http://books.google.com/books?id=fGA1AQAAIAAJ&q=dead#v=snippet& The Wikipedia entry includes a statement by a modern scientist that dismisses the anecdote based on experiments that increased the temperature at a considerably faster rate. Snopes has an article that was updated in 2009 that claims the anecdote is false, but it seems to rely on a scientist describing an experiment in which the water is heated at a rate of "2 degrees Fahrenheit per minute." http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp Is more known now about the truth of this metaphor? On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Perplexing Proverb > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 9:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >>>=20 >>> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics = > blog >>> has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange = > proverb >>> "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand = > the point of >>> the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an = > underlying >>> commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that = > it's always darkest >>> just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? >>=20 >> Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it >> resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to >> be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. >>=20 >> Language Log discussion here: >> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D1764 >>=20 > Actually the links (especially with reference to the Goltz studies = > reported in Beitrage zur Lehre von den Functionen der Nervencentren des = > Frosches; Berlin: August Hirschwald, 1869) make it clear that a frog = > will indeed allow itself to be boiled when placed in a pot of gradually = > heated water, IF (and apparently only if) it is a decerebrated frog. = > And decerebrated frogs probably have an equally hard time figuring out = > whether or not it's darkest just before the dawn. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Fri Aug 5 03:40:34 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 20:40:34 -0700 Subject: Perplexing Proverb In-Reply-To: <201108050134.p7506iSe025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:24 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >> >> A reader of my weekly "column" about quotations on the Freakonomics blog >> has asked a question that has long perplexed me. How did the strange proverb >> "It's always darkest just before the dawn" arise? We all understand the point of >> the proverbial metaphor, but such metaphors are usually based on an underlying >> commonly accepted reality. It's just not scientifically true that it's always darkest >> just before the dawn. Can anyone help me to understand this? > > Perhaps we could classify this as a "frog-boiling proverb," since it > resembles the equally untrue cliche that a frog will allow itself to > be boiled if placed in a pot of gradually heated water. > > Language Log discussion here: > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1764 and some here: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/02/12/boiling-a-frog-past-the-tipping-point/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Fri Aug 5 03:53:20 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 23:53:20 -0400 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS Message-ID: I went to the library today to find these exx., but volumes I and II didn't go up to the "T"s. And if I recall correctly from other discussions here, volume III is unpublished. Could you share these unpublished examples? Also, I wonder how much Toni Morrison's 1981 book by this name has affected the perception of "tar baby". Neal > On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. >>> All >>> after "Song >>> of the South." >>> >>> JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 08:24:10 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 04:24:10 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108042357.p74AtrPs025925@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A young person at work played this album for me when it first came out. Its release was 1995, not 1992. I suppose she could have written the song earlier than 1995. I haven't listened to the song in a while, but I took the meaning as [best friend] and the kicker [with benefits]. I should listen to it again. However, from an interview of hers I read years ago, the alternative {best [friend with benefits]} is also plausible: She stated that her and her band members were having a contest to see who could have the most sex while they were on tour. (I'll have to look for the interview when I'm on a less-restricted computer). I think it may have appeared in "Acoustic Guitar". Very good songwriting IMHO. She is certainly talented enough to coin this phrase. I tried a little searching on Google for the phrase, but the bandwidth is clogged with info about the current, similarly-titled movie "Friends with Benefits". I tried minusing out "film" and "movie", but it's still quite a popular phrase. Any ideas on how to search for early occurrences of the phrase? Eric On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Not knowing the song, I was wondering whether the parsing at the time was > [best friend] [with benefits] or {best [friend with benefits]]. Maybe it's > hard to tell. > > LH > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > > > In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a > pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered > if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. > > > > Neal > > > > On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock > wrote: > > > >> Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) > >> > >> You're the best listener that I've ever met > >> You're my best friend > >> Best friend with benefits > >> What took me so long > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 12:55:18 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 08:55:18 -0400 Subject: perMIT, n. Message-ID: This pronunciation of the noun, with final-syllable stress, struck me as weird when I first heard it around 1971, and I believe we dicussed it some years ago. In the movie _Blackwell's Island_ (1939), starring the great John Garfield, a prison guard explains clearly that a visitor "has a perMIT signed by the Deputy Commissioner of Corrections." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 13:49:35 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:49:35 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 4:24 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > A young person at work played this album for me when it first came out. Its > release was 1995, not 1992. I suppose she could have written the song > earlier than 1995. > > I haven't listened to the song in a while, but I took the meaning as [best > friend] and the kicker [with benefits]. I should listen to it again. > However, from an interview of hers I read years ago, the alternative {best > [friend with benefits]} is also plausible: She stated that her and her band > members were having a contest to see who could have the most sex while they > were on tour. > (I'll have to look for the interview when I'm on a less-restricted > computer). I think it may have appeared in "Acoustic Guitar". > > Very good songwriting IMHO. She is certainly talented enough to coin this > phrase. I tried a little searching on Google for the phrase, but the > bandwidth is clogged with info about the current, similarly-titled movie > "Friends with Benefits". I tried minusing out "film" and "movie", but it's > still quite a popular phrase. Any ideas on how to search for early > occurrences of the phrase? > > Eric > Browsing through the Google Books hits under "friends with benefits" does get rid of most (not all) of the references to the movie, but I'm not sure how to arrange the hits chronologically if it's possible to do so. Most seem to be from the last 5 years, which doesn't help. Alternatively there's Nexis, but they keep changing the search algorithms and I haven't kept up. LH > On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 7:57 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >> Not knowing the song, I was wondering whether the parsing at the time was >> [best friend] [with benefits] or {best [friend with benefits]]. Maybe it's >> hard to tell. >> >> LH >> >> On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:23 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: >> >>> In fact, that was the first place I heard FWB, and thought it was a >> pretty clever turn of phrase. When FWB achieved wider currency, I wondered >> if Morissette had been the source, or merely a vector. Still don't know. >>> >>> Neal >>> >>> On Aug 4, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Brian Hitchcock >> wrote: >>> >>>> Alanis Morissette, "Head Over Feet" (Jagged Little Pill, 1992) >>>> >>>> You're the best listener that I've ever met >>>> You're my best friend >>>> Best friend with benefits >>>> What took me so long >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 14:37:55 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:37:55 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 09:49 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Browsing through the Google Books hits under >"friends with benefits" does get rid of most >(not all) of the references to the movie, but >I'm not sure how to arrange the hits >chronologically if it's possible to do so. Most >seem to be from the last 5 years, which doesn't >help. Alternatively there's Nexis, but they >keep changing the search algorithms and I haven't kept up. Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits? I'm an outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell of a catch), with a lot to offer. Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring and summer ... I realized I was missing the special guy to share the good times with. You should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... [Or does the "just a bit" romantic disqualify this? Although there's something appealing about a possible New Jersey origin.] Date and page number confirmed from page footer. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 5 14:43:15 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:43:15 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051438.p75EbvRu006119@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits? I'm an > outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > of a catch), with a lot to offer. > Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > and summer ... I realized I was missing the > special guy to share the good times with. You > should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on occasion. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 14:44:17 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:44:17 -0400 Subject: Frogs in hot water In-Reply-To: <3DE4D421-B5ED-412D-8624-34A9FC4CBFE0@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/4/2011 09:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Actually the links (especially with reference to the Goltz studies >reported in Beitrage zur Lehre von den Functionen der Nervencentren >des Frosches; Berlin: August Hirschwald, 1869) make it clear that a >frog will indeed allow itself to be boiled when placed in a pot of >gradually heated water, IF (and apparently only if) it is a >decerebrated frog. And decerebrated frogs probably have an equally >hard time figuring out whether or not it's darkest just before the dawn. The only un-decerebrated frog I'm familiar with is the Cerebrated Jumping frog of Calaveras County. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Aug 5 14:47:19 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 09:47:19 -0500 Subject: Frogs in hot water (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108051444.p75AlXKQ008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > The only un-decerebrated frog I'm familiar with is the Cerebrated > Jumping frog of Calaveras County. > > Shouldn't that be "Caraveras County"? Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:00:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:00:56 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051438.p75EbvRu006119@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:37 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 09:49 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> Browsing through the Google Books hits under >> "friends with benefits" does get rid of most >> (not all) of the references to the movie, but >> I'm not sure how to arrange the hits >> chronologically if it's possible to do so. Most >> seem to be from the last 5 years, which doesn't >> help. Alternatively there's Nexis, but they >> keep changing the search algorithms and I haven't kept up. > > Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > benefits" Aha! Good to know. I see from googling "friend(s) with benefits" + "Alanis Morissette" that her "Head over Feet" (1995) is variously described as coining, popularizing, or repopularizing the phrase. It was certainly at least a primary vector, although it's interesting that the expression, if not the concept, remained largely dormant?as Joel's data confirms--for another few years after that. LH > (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an > outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > of a catch), with a lot to offer. > ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:02:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:02:47 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805144314.GC5070@panix.com> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to >> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with >> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at >> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of >> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be >> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. >> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): >> >> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an >> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell >> of a catch), with a lot to offer. >> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in >> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring >> and summer ... I realized I was missing the >> special guy to share the good times with. You >> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > occasion. > That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 15:19:13 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:19:13 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Didn't find the original interview, but here is some verification: "During her first tour, Alanis and her band had a contest going to see who could sleep with the most people. Alanis, who says she?s ?a very sexual person,? reportedly finished third." http://www.quotesquotations.com/biography/alanis-morissette-bio/ Eric On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > She stated that her and her band members were having a contest to see who > could have the most sex while they were on tour. > (I'll have to look for the interview when I'm on a less-restricted > computer). I think it may have appeared in "Acoustic Guitar". > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:26:05 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:26:05 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805144314.GC5070@panix.com> Message-ID: The 1997 disputed by Jesse does seems a bit ambiguous, like all personal relationships. But surely sex is offered in addition to the friendship, and as for sleeping with on occasion, the promise is only for the spring and summer? :-) (But there are possible instances, from a little later -- (1) 2000 -- "Amber If I was you, I'd get a boyfriend and have a real relationship because having a friend with benefits can get very confusing. [apparently signed] ? ramalama [Next message] i don't want sex to get in the way I've been seeing this girl for two years now ? I've really ... " This Book is about sex, by Tucker Shaw, Fiona Gibb, [New York:] Alloy Books, 2000, p. 26. Snippet. Publication data confirmed via WorldCat. (2) 2001 -- "Maybe I would take this better if I weren't so upset about Grampa. But Glenda--it's Jason. I was an idiot." She covered her face in her hands. "He's been cheating on me. It's over.' "What?"cried Glenda ... "Did you just find this out last night?" Aggie nodded and lowered her hands, turning her tear-drenched face towards Glenda. "I hear him on the phone. Oh God ... he was talking to some old ex-girlfriend back in Port. A friend with benefits. That's what he said she was." "That asshole," growled Glenda. "So you talked to him?" "Yes, I was on his porch and I fell down and he heard me and came out. He told me--" Aggie paused, wiping her face with her hands. "He told me he'd never claimed to be exclusive. That I had a completely different idea of the relationship. Which obviously I did." Aggie's Nine Heroes, by Diana Laurence, 2001. Page unnumbered? Preview available. Not in WorldCat. Four available at Amazon.com, whose cover illustration indicates published by Kiva. Does that make the year suspicious? Two other quotations around this time seem ambiguous, and might better fit Jesse's classification. From 2002 -- (3) "... might find a best friend with benefits. Don't you think being different is hard enough without saying your nasty stuff? Everywhere they go, they get dirt thrown in their face. So much hurt that can never be erased. ... " Fancy Flight, by Karen A. Davies, 2002, p. 35. Preview available; the added context may be useful to someone better than I. (4) "Aaron Rudner, my first best friend ... Jennifer Michals, my best friend with benefits. Thank you for sharing your heart, your humor, your strong support, your patience, and your vision." [Note the distinction between "best friend" and "best friend with benefits."] Fireworks MX fundamentals, by Abigail Rudner, Lori Denning, 2002, p. xxv. [From Acknowledgements.] Preview available. There are many instances starting in 2003 that I think would clearly indicate casual sex. Joel At 8/5/2011 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > > search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > > benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > > just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > > which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > > Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > > 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > > > "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits? I'm an > > outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > > of a catch), with a lot to offer. > > Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > > central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > > and summer ... I realized I was missing the > > special guy to share the good times with. You > > should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > >But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >occasion. > >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:28:28 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:28:28 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <5B073482-08CC-4EFA-9BCF-76D0EFCD6909@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > > occasion. > > >That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. I was just about to ask about that, from my casual glance at the lyrics earlier in this message chain. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 5 15:31:25 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:31:25 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051528.p75FSTSX025933@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:28:28AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > >> partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > >> advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > >> a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > >> occasion. > >> > >That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. > > I was just about to ask about that, from my casual glance at the > lyrics earlier in this message chain. Yes, I agree. The Morissette song doesn't use the expression in what I regard as the 'main' sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:32:30 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:32:30 -0400 Subject: Frogs in hot water In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 10:47 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >Classification: UNCLASSIFIED >Caveats: NONE > > > > > The only un-decerebrated frog I'm familiar with is the Cerebrated > > Jumping frog of Calaveras County. > > > > > >Shouldn't that be "Caraveras County"? My l-r confusion is only intermittent. And only oral -- I can copy from Wikipedia without error. :-) JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:26:21 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:26:21 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051502.p75AlXOM008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> > >> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > >> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > >> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > >> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > >> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > >> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > >> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > >> > >> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an > >> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > >> of a catch), with a lot to offer. > >> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > >> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > >> and summer ... I realized I was missing the > >> special guy to share the good times with. You > >> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > > > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > > occasion. > > > That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A > speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of > euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a personal ad from 11/28/96: http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 15:37:02 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:37:02 +0000 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS In-Reply-To: <201108050353.p74HE7lW028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch of negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Neal Whitman > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I went to the library today to find these exx., but volumes I and II didn't > go up to the "T"s. And if I recall correctly from other discussions here, > volume III is unpublished. Could you share these unpublished examples? > > Also, I wonder how much Toni Morrison's 1981 book by this name has affected > the perception of "tar baby". > > Neal > > > On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. > >>> All > >>> after "Song > >>> of the South." > >>> > >>> JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:44:34 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:44:34 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051528.p75FSTSX025933@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >> > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >> > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >> > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >> > occasion. >> > >> That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. > > I was just about to ask about that, from my casual glance at the > lyrics earlier in this message chain. > > Joel Eric Nielsen probably can speak to this better than me, since I don't really know the song or the singer (and given that her favorite film is "Forrest Gump"?), but the complete lyrics (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/alanismorissette/headoverfeet.html) do seem to hint that her narrator* is seeking?well, something more than what we now think of as FWBs, despite the evidence of Morissette's own proclivities as mentioned in the bio Eric cites (that contest during the band's first tour, her self-reported "filthy mouth", her "penchant?for stealing other girls' boyfriends",...). LH *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second person). Talk about lexical gaps! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 15:49:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805153125.GH5070@panix.com> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 11:31 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >Yes, I agree. The Morissette song doesn't use the expression in what I >regard as the 'main' sense. Isn't that the "main squeeze" sense? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 15:40:23 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:40:23 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051536.p75AlXUs008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: [...] > That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the > Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Sorry, I over-shortened the shortened URL, which should be: http://goo.gl/ddIyP > Exx from '95-'96 > mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. > Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a > personal ad from 11/28/96: > > http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de > > Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c > > --bgz > -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Aug 5 15:51:36 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:51:36 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second > person). Talk about lexical gaps! I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Aug 5 15:54:22 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 10:54:22 -0500 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108051537.p75FY99L006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE But the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml > > The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch of > negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song > wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 16:00:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:00:06 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <20110805155136.GM5070@panix.com> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 11:51 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? > > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person > > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second > > person). Talk about lexical gaps! > >I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". I don't think the literary critics have come up with anything better, considering the many uses I see of "narrator". >Jesse Sheidlower >OED > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:02:58 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:02:58 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> >> On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>>> >>>> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to >>>> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with >>>> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at >>>> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of >>>> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be >>>> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. >>>> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): >>>> >>>> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an >>>> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell >>>> of a catch), with a lot to offer. >>>> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in >>>> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring >>>> and summer ... I realized I was missing the >>>> special guy to share the good times with. You >>>> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... >>> >>> But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >>> partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >>> advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >>> a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >>> occasion. >>> >> That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A >> speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of >> euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". > > That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the > Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 > mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. > Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a > personal ad from 11/28/96: > > http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de > > Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c > > --bgz > > ? This will be an interesting entry when it's written. Assuming Morissette's usage ends up bracketed for the reasons we've discussed, does Mr. Friedman get credit for first cite? None of the google books cites in the relevant (fuck-buddy-plus) sense predates this. I add the "plus" because one of the cites I was browsing distinguished FWB from fuck buddy on the one side?fuck buddies aren't necessarily friends, after all?as well as romantic (or "relationshippy") partner (not to mention soulmate, as in the '96 ad above). I am kidding, mostly, because Friedman obviously didn't originate the term in this sense, he presupposes familiarity with it, but where do we go from here? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:04:40 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:04:40 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051600.p75AlX3n019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the old days, they used to talk about the "voice" of or in the poem. JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/5/2011 11:51 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > > > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? > > > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person > > > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second > > > person). Talk about lexical gaps! > > > >I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". > > I don't think the literary critics have come up with anything better, > considering the many uses I see of "narrator". > > > >Jesse Sheidlower > >OED > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:10:01 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:10:01 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051600.p75G07Sd004347@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:00 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/5/2011 11:51 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 11:44:34AM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote: >> > >> > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? >> > It's not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person >> > whose point of view is represented (which may be a third/second >> > person). Talk about lexical gaps! >> >> I'd go with "narrator", "speaker", or in some contexts "persona". > > I don't think the literary critics have come up with anything better, > considering the many uses I see of "narrator". > > The relevant sense of "narrator" in the OED is 2a, The voice or persona (whether explicitly identified or merely implicit) by which are related the events in a plot, esp. that of a novel or narrative poem. which I guess would cover the song context, sort of, given that "esp." is not exhaustive. But it still seems weird to me to refer to the song's narrator, not that I can come up with anything better. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:21:41 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:21:41 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "John Doe" Message-ID: John Doe (OED 1768) 1599 in OED, s.v. _Richard Roe_ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:13:23 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:13:23 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051603.p75AlXXo008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c >> > This will be an interesting entry when it's written. Assuming Morissette's usage > ends up bracketed for the reasons we've discussed, does Mr. Friedman get credit > for first cite? None of the google books cites in the relevant (fuck-buddy-plus) > sense predates this. I add the "plus" because one of the cites I was browsing > distinguished FWB from fuck buddy on the one side?fuck buddies aren't > necessarily friends, after all?as well as romantic (or "relationshippy") partner > (not to mention soulmate, as in the '96 ad above). I am kidding, mostly, > because Friedman obviously didn't originate the term in this sense, he > presupposes familiarity with it, but where do we go from here? Perhaps the polyamorous community holds the missing link. From Usenet again: --- http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. We are looking for someone to meet, get along with, have great times with, and fullfill Fantasies. The fantasies fullfilled will include yours. ... We are not really interested in meeting couples, or having The female half of a couple participate, while the male looks on. This is not an ad for just sex, as we are looking for a friend as well. I guess you could say, "A friend with Benefits" --- http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/15314ef25d2a380e alt.polyamory, Aug. 5, 1997 >A term that I have used off and on in the past that has served me well >is FAL. Friend And Lover. It's pretty descriptive of when a good >friend is also someone with whom I share sex, but with whom I'm not in >a relationship per se. I like it because it easy to say as well and >once I've introduced people to it, I can say it of someone and be >understood. I've always like "friend with access" or "friend with benefits" (as in the Alanis Morrisette song). Not as easy to say as "FAL", but, hey, I work in the computer industry: I don't need more acronyms in my life. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:30:09 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:30:09 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051545.p75AlX2l019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I re-listened to the song (great musical phrasing), and "best friend" is clearly most important: The "with benefits" is a relationship enhancement. At the end of this clip, she discusses the song a little: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQJ4_QgLwLc&feature=grec_index The titles of some of her other albums are provocative, too: *Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie* *Flavors of Entanglement* Eric tOn Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/5/2011 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > >> > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that = > the > >> > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but = > also > >> > a close friend. > > the complete lyrics = > (http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/alanismorissette/headoverfeet.html) do = > seem to hint that her narrator* is seeking=85well, something more than = > what we now think of as FWBs, despite the evidence of Morissette's own = > proclivities as mentioned in the bio Eric cites (that contest during the = > band's first tour, her self-reported "filthy mouth", her "penchant=85for = > stealing other girls' boyfriends",...). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:46:05 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:46:05 -0400 Subject: perMIT, n. In-Reply-To: <201108051255.p75AlXMB006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In the movie _Blackwell's Island_ (1939), starring the great John Garfield, > a prison guard explains clearly that a visitor "has a perMIT signed by the > Deputy Commissioner of Corrections." > _perMIT in wide use since at least 1939? (I assume "wide," based on the assumption that the "guard" was portrayed by a white actor.) That certainly jibes with my personal experience, though, till now, I'd been under the misprehapprehension that it was essentially only a BE thing. I keep forgetting that, in reality. I've lived my entire life without any true social contact whatsoever with white people, despite the fact that, my God! they're everywhere! Hence, I lack any gefuehl for the sprach of "the other group." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 16:50:55 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:50:55 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051545.p75AlX2l019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're in good company--as to wondering about terminology. Check out Suzy Bogguss' comments at about 3:50 in this interview (some good yodeling, too): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avWd9BAcNqU Eric On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > *Is there a better term for the first-person protagonist of a song? It's = > not necessarily "the singer", "the songwriter", or the person whose = > point of view is represented (which may be a third/second person). Talk = > about lexical gaps!= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 5 16:46:58 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:46:58 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051623.p75AlXaM008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > Perhaps the polyamorous community holds the missing link. From Usenet again: > > --- > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 > alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 > We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. We are > looking for someone to meet, get along with, have great times > with, and fullfill Fantasies. The fantasies fullfilled will > include yours. ... > We are not really interested in meeting couples, or having The > female half of a couple participate, while the male looks on. > This is not an ad for just sex, as we are looking for a friend as > well. I guess you could say, "A friend with Benefits" > --- > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/15314ef25d2a380e > alt.polyamory, Aug. 5, 1997 >>A term that I have used off and on in the past that has served me well >>is FAL. Friend And Lover. It's pretty descriptive of when a good >>friend is also someone with whom I share sex, but with whom I'm not in >>a relationship per se. I like it because it easy to say as well and >>once I've introduced people to it, I can say it of someone and be >>understood. > I've always like "friend with access" or "friend with > benefits" (as in the Alanis Morrisette song). Not as easy to say as > "FAL", but, hey, I work in the computer industry: I don't need more > acronyms in my life. > --- One more from alt.polyamory, indicating that "friends with benefits" joined up with the similarly euphemistic "friends with access" and "friends with privileges" (however spelled), independent of Alanis: --- http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/5b5128bb07bcc0a9 alt.polyamory, Feb. 22, 1996 : It is just a matter of definitions and time: : one-night-stand: sex for a night : sex friends: sex for two+ nights (that was good, i want some more :) ) : dating: i guess emotional involvement, though i've been somewhat fuzzy on : the exact definition ever since friend and sexual friend and dating began : to overlap.... now i just give up on labeling unless it's clear... *smile* once it becomes something more than once or twice which we call hooking up, we've taken to using phrases like "fuck buddy" (a tad vulgar but fun), "friends with access" or "Friends with priveleges". my personal fave is friends with access... --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 17:09:14 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:09:14 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051657.p75FY9Ll006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just wondering: wasn't "benefits" often used in feminist writing to refer to what women received in exchange for sex? Might have been an influence on the "friend with benefits" phrase. DanG On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> Perhaps the polyamorous community holds the missing link. From Usenet again: >> >> --- >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 >> alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 >> We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. We are >> looking for someone to meet, get along with, have great times >> with, and fullfill Fantasies. The fantasies fullfilled will >> include yours. ... >> We are not really interested in meeting couples, or having The >> female half of a couple participate, while the male looks on. >> This is not an ad for just sex, as we are looking for a friend as >> well. I guess you could say, "A friend with Benefits" >> --- >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/15314ef25d2a380e >> alt.polyamory, Aug. 5, 1997 >>>A term that I have used off and on in the past that has served me well >>>is FAL. Friend And Lover. It's pretty descriptive of when a good >>>friend is also someone with whom I share sex, but with whom I'm not in >>>a relationship per se. I like it because it easy to say as well and >>>once I've introduced people to it, I can say it of someone and be >>>understood. >> I've always like "friend with access" or "friend with >> benefits" (as in the Alanis Morrisette song). Not as easy to say as >> "FAL", but, hey, I work in the computer industry: I don't need more >> acronyms in my life. >> --- > > One more from alt.polyamory, indicating that "friends with benefits" > joined up with the similarly euphemistic "friends with access" and > "friends with privileges" (however spelled), independent of Alanis: > > --- > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.polyamory/msg/5b5128bb07bcc0a9 > alt.polyamory, Feb. 22, 1996 > : It is just a matter of definitions and time: > : one-night-stand: sex for a night > : sex friends: sex for two+ nights (that was good, i want some more :) ) > : dating: i guess emotional involvement, though i've been somewhat fuzzy on > : the exact definition ever since friend and sexual friend and dating began > : to overlap.... now i just give up on labeling unless it's clear... > *smile* once it becomes something more than once or twice which we call > hooking up, we've taken to using phrases like "fuck buddy" (a tad vulgar > but fun), "friends with access" or "Friends with priveleges". my > personal fave is friends with access... > --- > > --bgz > > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Fri Aug 5 17:15:59 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 12:15:59 -0500 Subject: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108050353.p74HE7lW028864@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > > On 8/4/2011 9:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> HDAS has several exx. of "tar baby" in the contemptuous sense, however. >>> All after "Song of the South." >>> >>> JL > Joel Chandler Harris started on the Uncle Remus stories in 1876 (per Wikipedia), but there is in Newspaperarchive an 1873 telling of the tar baby story, complete with dialect. This antedates the OED (1881) _The Cedar Rapids Times_ (Cedar Rapids, Iowa) January 16, 1873 Page 4 col 2 "Den Bu Rabbit draw off an' hit um one slap -- 'e han' fassen to de Tar Baby face!" Also: _The Daily Memphis Avalanche_ (Memphis TN, NewsBank Early American Newspapers) 12/27/1867 p. 1 col 1 "One of the Virginia conventionists, who wears a white choker is compared by an irreverent correspondent to a tar baby in a cream pot." Figurative use: Petersburg Index-Appeal | Petersburg, Virginia | Tuesday, July 09, 1878 | Page 1 col 1 (newspaperarchive) "Capt. W. says that he is like the rabbit in the nursery story, that he has smacked a political tar baby to which he is stuck, is sticking, and will continue to stick beyond the power of the resurrectionist." Macon [GA] Telegraph Feb 19 1889 p 3 col 2 (NewsBank Early American Newspapers) "The young fellow had a regular tar baby of a memory. It stuck to everything." Offensive use (OED has 1948) _Omaha [NE] World Herald_ 2/25/1892 p 3 col 2 (NewsBank Early American Newspapers) "Jay Joseph, a small lad who was with a crowd of urchins about his style and size yesterday afternoon, was arrested for calling a man named Wagner an ugly name. . . It turned out that another boy had called the man a tar baby, and that the person to whom this gentle appellation was given was so enraged by it that he wanted to have the boy hung." See also black boxer Sam Langford http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Langford which may be somewhat ambiguous in that getting stuck in a tar baby may be something like fighting a particular style of boxer. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 5 17:16:13 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:16:13 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > I re-listened to the song (great musical phrasing), and "best friend" is > clearly most important: The "with benefits" is a relationship enhancement. > > At the end of this clip, she discusses the song a little: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQJ4_QgLwLc&feature=grec_index > > ?and in fact she says there that the song is about being in love with someone (in addition to the benefits part), so definitely not the canonical meaning for "friend with benefits", which Ben's polyamory postings (well, not *his* postings per se) indicate had already developed by the mid-'90s. But maybe the line in the song was ripe for reinterpretation and there was a clear sense of a lexical gap that needed filled. I do seem to recall "sex friend" from the 90s, which was one of the alternate forms listed in one of those postings, but maybe it was just too transparent for the purpose. Even if "friend(s) with benefits" isn't a euphemism as such, its translucency no doubt helped its success, even if no one used it in contexts like "Grandma, I'd like you to meet Sandy, my friend with benefits." LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 17:39:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:39:52 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _give it up_ Message-ID: Twenty-ish black male speaker, addressing his wife: "Blah, blah, bah! And you don't even hardly let me have sex no more!" Twenty-ish, black female speaker, in response: "Why *should* I _give it up_ to you, when you don't do *nothing* to help me?" This has to do with my earlier post claiming that the ritualized practice of calling upon audiences to "give it up" is a sex-based pun entirely understood as such by those audience. _Get up off of (it)_ has the same, ritualized, sexual meaning, as in the well-known(?), punning blues verse, If I can't sell it Then I'm going to keep on sitting on it Because I ain't _getting up off of_ *nothing* For *free*! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 19:06:33 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:06:33 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 12:13 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >--- >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.personals/msg/7c4bf0b0b5c24aa0 >alt.personals, Apr. 6, 1996 >We are a Portland Couple looking for a single female. Perhaps the same couple as in my 2001 cite? "Aggie nodded and lowered her hands, turning her tear-drenched face towards Glenda. "I hear him on the phone. Oh God ... he was talking to some old ex-girlfriend back in Port." JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 5 19:19:28 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 15:19:28 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "John Doe" In-Reply-To: <12CC4E0892F2DD4B82F37CC32EA5D782824A245DEE@XVS1-CLUSTER.yu .yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 12:21 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: >John Doe (OED 1768) > >1599 in OED, s.v. _Richard Roe_ I think we simply have to wait until the OED marches on to J. (In 2009, Jesse wrote me that he had both John and Richard from 1599. I had found them in 1696 in Essex Country, Mass.) JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 5 21:21:31 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 17:21:31 -0400 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: Check it out: "There's no substitute for beer." That means beer is good: accept no substitutes. "Champagne is no substitute for beer." That mean beer is good: better than champagne. If you're with me so far (and I'll bet somebody isn't), the following sentence is insane: "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and survival the twin brother of annihilation.' "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be increased_." The passage was written by Ron Hirschbein, who has "created programs in war and peace studies at the University of California, Chico." A few lines later, Prof. Hirschbein writes with a straight face, "[P]hilosophers are troubled by contradictions and unintelligible prose, especially when no effort is made to resolve the contradictions and to render clear and distinct expression." Churchill's comment, made in 1955, is provocative. But Hirschbein seems to believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear crises." (Think about *that* one!) The passage appears in the popular paperback for undergraduate thinkers, _Alice in Wonderland and Philosophy_, ed. by R. B. Davis (Wiley, 2010). JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 01:52:37 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 21:52:37 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108052121.p75JKn4k008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." What we have here is a failure to communicate. Clearly, what the author intended to say is that "Dubious reasoning is no substitute for eloquence." That is to say, eloquence is superior to dubious reasoning. WTF? It's "still" nothing but meaningless blather! Must be an example of that "sound and fury signifying nothing" of which the Bible so eloquently speaks. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Sat Aug 6 02:32:58 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 22:32:58 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? Message-ID: Great find! FWIW, we've been watching a few "All in the Family" reruns on DVD, and I've heard Archie use the terms "coon", "black beauty" and I think one more. I haven't (yet) heard him use "tar baby" (or, for that matter, "nigger"). However, this show would seem to be a promising place to find racially derogatory uses of "tar baby" if it was at all common in the 1970s. Does anyone who's seen more episodes than I have remember Archie Bunker saying "tar baby"? Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" To: Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 11:54 AM Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > But the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard > Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. > > http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml > > >> >> The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch > of >> negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song >> wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. >> >> >> > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 02:50:03 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 22:50:03 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108052121.p75JKn4k008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Check it out: > > "There's no substitute for beer." That means beer is good: accept no > substitutes. > > "Champagne is no substitute for beer." That mean beer is good: better than > champagne. > > If you're with me so far (and I'll bet somebody isn't), the following > sentence is insane: > > "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." Jon: Do you think the following examples may be similar to the one that you are critiquing? Bottomline: Volume 2, Part 2 National Council of Savings Institutions (U.S.) - 1985 - Snippet view High yields are no substitute for poor credit or overpriced properties; pity those who have had to learn this the hard way. The motor ship: Volume 58 1977 - Snippet view Q COLLISION-AVOIDANCE radar systems are no substitute for poor officers or a guarantee of safe passage. These are among the major (and perhaps obvious, a cynic might say) findings of a study carried out by Liverpool Polytechnic College ... Introduction to floriculture Roy A. Larson - 1992 - 636 pages - Snippet view Growth retardants should be considered as one of the many tools available to the grower. They are no substitute for poor cultural practices. Here is my interpretation of this construct when it is used in the manner above. X is no substitute for Y. X cannot or should not be used to mask or minimize the problems associated with Y. X cannot be used to ameliorate Y. (Of course, I am not passing judgment on whether this is proper or improper English. This is a descriptivist analysis by a layperson.) [Examples are unverified snippets from Google Books.] > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy of > "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] have > reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence is no > substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the others > are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > increased_." > > The passage was written by Ron Hirschbein, who has "created programs in war > and peace studies at the University of California, Chico." A few lines > later, Prof. Hirschbein writes with a straight face, "[P]hilosophers are > troubled by contradictions and unintelligible prose, especially when no > effort is made to resolve the contradictions and to render clear and > distinct expression." > > Churchill's comment, made in 1955, is provocative. But Hirschbein seems to > believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His > research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear > crises." (Think about *that* one!) > > The passage appears in the popular paperback for undergraduate thinkers, > _Alice in Wonderland and Philosophy_, ed. by R. B. Davis (Wiley, 2010). > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 03:10:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 23:10:07 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108060233.p75JKnB6008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Neal Whitman quoted Bill Mullins: > the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. I saw the original and I've since seen a bunch of re-runs. That "tar-baby" was tossed into the mix struck me as incongruous and it still does. However, if everybody else is pretty sure that I should be accepting of "tar-baby" as a derogatory term in the minds of white people and in the minds of a few black people who have nothing worse in their lives to b concerned with, well... BTW, does anyone else remember the the NatLamp parody, Awl in de Fambly ? FWIW, when I still lived in Marshall, I didn't use "fambly," but I did use "chimley" > _chimney_, a word that I knew only from the Santa Claus story. You don't need a chimley, when you use the Texas equivalent of the electric space-heater ("Central heating"? Say what, now?), the natural-gas space-heater, for warmth. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sat Aug 6 05:16:32 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 00:16:32 -0500 Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) Message-ID: It's Vol 106, #7, July, 1986, pp. 32-43; The Long Stern Chase: A Speculative Exercise, by Rick Cook, under the TOC heading, Science Fact, and the quote is on p. 36. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garson O'Toole" To: Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 5:09 PM Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) In June there was a discussion on this list about the fable/proverb concerning a lion and a gazelle. Here is a link to the initiating post in the archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;7fbbbcef.1106D Based on the content of some past messages there are some SF fans on the list who might have access to Analog magazine in 1986. I am trying to verify a citation that contains a variant of the proverb with an antelope, and it is difficult to find the appropriate issues in a library. Two matches in Google Books give conflicting information, but both matches indicate that the text below is supposed to appear on page 36 in an issue dated 1986: A lion wakes up each morning thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the slowest antelope." An antelope wakes up thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster than the fastest lion." A human wakes up thinking, "To hell with who's fastest, I'll outlast the bastards." I am trying to construct a full citation. Here is the conflicting information from GB: Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 79, Issues 4-6 Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 106, Issues 7-9 Here is a link into Google Books: http://goo.gl/bXSd6 http://books.google.com/books?id=DrEnAQAAIAAJ&q=%22antelope+wakes%22#search_anchor If a list member can find this quotation in Analog magazine and send me (or the list) the cite information that would be very kind. Knowing the name of the article and the author would be helpful. (Scans would be perfect if it is easy for you to create them, but providing the citation data by itself would be great. [Scans cannot be sent to the list, of course]) Thanks, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 12:44:27 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 08:44:27 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108060233.p75JKnB6008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: HDAS cites go much farther back than I recalled. The earliest: 1888 Gordon & Page _Befo' de War_ 76: An' I ain't gwine ter swallow dat tar baby's lies. 1918 _Saturday Eve. Post_ (Jan. 19) 17: "Is there anything wrong with my hearing," says Sam, "or has that tar baby got an English accent?" 1920-21 H. C. Witwer _The Leather Pushers_ 19: The Kid rocks the tar baby with a right to the body. 1945 Drake & Cayton _Black Metropolis_ 502: My brothers and sister used to call me "tar baby." That would hurt me. Some of these may have gotten into OED online by now. I didn't note any ex. from Archie Bunker, but that may simply mean that I didn't need any from that period. One nuance is obviously, "a very black person," not just a black person. JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Neal Whitman wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Neal Whitman > Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Great find! > > FWIW, we've been watching a few "All in the Family" reruns on DVD, and I've > heard Archie use the terms "coon", "black beauty" and I think one more. I > haven't (yet) heard him use "tar baby" (or, for that matter, "nigger"). > However, this show would seem to be a promising place to find racially > derogatory uses of "tar baby" if it was at all common in the 1970s. Does > anyone who's seen more episodes than I have remember Archie Bunker saying > "tar baby"? > > Neal > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > To: > Sent: Friday, August 05, 2011 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail > > header ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > > Subject: Re: "tar baby" in HDAS (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > But the term did appear in the "Word Association" sketch between Richard > > Pryor and Chevy Chase on Saturday Night Live from 1975. > > > > http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/75ginterview.phtml > > > > > >> > >> The song "colored spade" from 60's rock musical "Hair" lists a bunch > > of > >> negative words for blacks. "Tar baby" wasn't one of them. The song > >> wasn't meant to be derogatory I'm sure. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > > Caveats: NONE > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 13:01:42 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 09:01:42 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108060250.p75AlXS3019552@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Garson. Your exx. seem to fit. Your definition sounds about right too. Descriptive linguistics oberves that the usage exists and seems nonproblematical to its users. Common sense says that, to everyone else, it's confusing and illogical and makes the utterer sound like a complete jackass. That's strike three. Much of the reason is that "substitute" alone has never meant "fraudulent or deceptive replacement" or "disguise." In the the 22nd century, maybe. But not not now. People who might say it does mean only that it does for them and their semantic soulmates. (Of course, I'm sure there are more of those than I'd like to think about.) Is it possible that the notion arose from childhood misunderstandings of the once popular advertising phrase, quoted in my own exx., "Accept no substitutes"? JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > Check it out: > > > > "There's no substitute for beer." That means beer is good: accept no > > substitutes. > > > > "Champagne is no substitute for beer." That mean beer is good: better > than > > champagne. > > > > If you're with me so far (and I'll bet somebody isn't), the following > > sentence is insane: > > > > "Eloquence is no substitute for dubious reasoning." > > Jon: Do you think the following examples may be similar to the one > that you are critiquing? > > Bottomline: Volume 2, Part 2 > National Council of Savings Institutions (U.S.) - 1985 - Snippet view > High yields are no substitute for poor credit or overpriced > properties; pity those who have had to learn this the hard way. > > The motor ship: Volume 58 > 1977 - Snippet view > Q COLLISION-AVOIDANCE radar systems are no substitute for poor > officers or a guarantee of safe passage. These are among the major > (and perhaps obvious, a cynic might say) findings of a study carried > out by Liverpool Polytechnic College ... > > Introduction to floriculture > Roy A. Larson - 1992 - 636 pages - Snippet view > Growth retardants should be considered as one of the many tools > available to the grower. They are no substitute for poor cultural > practices. > > Here is my interpretation of this construct when it is used in the manner > above. > > X is no substitute for Y. > X cannot or should not be used to mask or minimize the problems > associated with Y. X cannot be used to ameliorate Y. > > (Of course, I am not passing judgment on whether this is proper or > improper English. This is a descriptivist analysis by a layperson.) > [Examples are unverified snippets from Google Books.] > > > > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy of > > "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] > have > > reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence is > no > > substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the > others > > are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > > increased_." > > > > The passage was written by Ron Hirschbein, who has "created programs in > war > > and peace studies at the University of California, Chico." A few lines > > later, Prof. Hirschbein writes with a straight face, "[P]hilosophers are > > troubled by contradictions and unintelligible prose, especially when no > > effort is made to resolve the contradictions and to render clear and > > distinct expression." > > > > Churchill's comment, made in 1955, is provocative. But Hirschbein seems > to > > believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His > > research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear > > crises." (Think about *that* one!) > > > > The passage appears in the popular paperback for undergraduate thinkers, > > _Alice in Wonderland and Philosophy_, ed. by R. B. Davis (Wiley, 2010). > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 6 14:12:59 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:12:59 -0400 Subject: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/5/2011 05:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >But Hirschbein seems to >believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His >research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear >crises." (Think about *that* one!) I am thinking. And I imagine Hirschbein saying about Hiroshima what Derrida wrote about 9/11, as noted by Edward Rothstein in an appraisal shortly after he died. I find I did not ever send this to ADS-L. The New York Times, Monday October 11, 2004, "An Appraisal: The Man Who Showed Us How to Take the World Apart", by Edward Rothstein, page B1 -- its last few paragraphs. Transcribed by me, at a time when I did not have access to the NYTimes archives, with apologies for any typos: It's still at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/arts/music/11derr.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=rothtein%20man%20showed%20apart&st=cse But of course, one reason for the extraordinary success of Derrida's ideas is that they also followed an orthodoxy in which rebellion is privileged over tradition and iconoclasm over authority. Independence is declared; obeisance is dismissed. This devotion to autonomy, accompanied by a spirit of play, is partly what gave Derrida a following in America far more enduring than that in France. His radical anti-authoritarianism and counter-Western ideas also gave him an empathetic reception on the international political left. But this orthodoxy, too, can be as ruthless and demanding as any other. This may have been why Derrida could often become mannered and puerile, endlessly turning rebellion on itself. And late in his life, Derrida, bristling at charges that he was a relativist, tried to find some sort of firm, unshakeable ground upon which to stand a notion of political activity and justice that might justify his triumphant orthodoxy. To no avail. In the recent book, "Philosophy in a Time of Terror," here is what he said about 9/11: "We do not in fact know what we are saying or naming in this way: September 11, le 11 septembre, September11. The brevity of the appellation (September 11, 9/11) stems not only from an economic or rhetorical necessity. The telegram of this metonymy -- a name, a number -- points out the unqualifiable by recognizing that we do not recognize or even cognize that we do not yet know how to qualify, that we do not know what we are talking about." The rest is silence. [The last sentence above is not mine; it is the last in Rothstein's article.] Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 16:24:25 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 12:24:25 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108061301.p76B0pJ5003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: BTW, Hirschbein's "plain English" is no substitute for Churchill's original. He simply failed to understand the quote that he based his whole hyperventilating tirade on. In that context, what's a little perversion of a common idiom! VS-) On 8/6/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: ... > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy > of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] > have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence > is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and the > others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > increased_." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 18:00:06 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 14:00:06 -0400 Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles (antelopes, humans) In-Reply-To: <201108060516.p75JKnJw008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dave Hause wrote > It's Vol 106, #7, July, 1986, pp. 32-43; The Long Stern Chase: A > Speculative Exercise, by Rick Cook, under the TOC heading, Science Fact, and > the quote is on p. 36. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Waynesville, MO Great! Many thanks to Dave Hause for kindly locating the passage about lions and antelopes within the July, 1986 issue of Analog. The blog post on "The Fable of the Lion and the Gazelle" has now been updated to include this Analog citation together with an acknowledgement in the bibliographic notes. http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/05/lion-gazelle/ With Appreciation Garson > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Garson O'Toole" > To: > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 5:09 PM > Subject: Request for SF mag verification of Modern Fable Lions and gazelles > (antelopes, humans) > > > In June there was a discussion on this list about the fable/proverb > concerning a lion and a gazelle. Here is a link to the initiating post > in the archives: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;7fbbbcef.1106D > > Based on the content of some past messages there are some SF fans on > the list who might have access to Analog magazine in 1986. I am trying > to verify a citation that contains a variant of the proverb with an > antelope, and it is difficult to find the appropriate issues in a > library. > > Two matches in Google Books give conflicting information, but both > matches indicate that the text below is supposed to appear on page 36 > in an issue dated 1986: > > A lion wakes up each morning thinking, "All I've got to do today is > run faster than the slowest antelope." > > An antelope wakes up thinking, "All I've got to do today is run faster > than the fastest lion." > > A human wakes up thinking, "To hell with who's fastest, I'll outlast > the bastards." > > I am trying to construct a full citation. Here is the conflicting > information from GB: > > Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 79, Issues 4-6 > Analog science fiction/science fact: Volume 106, Issues 7-9 > > Here is a link into Google Books: > > http://goo.gl/bXSd6 > http://books.google.com/books?id=DrEnAQAAIAAJ&q=%22antelope+wakes%22#search_anchor > > If a list member can find this quotation in Analog magazine and send > me (or the list) the cite information that would be very kind. Knowing > the name of the article and the author would be helpful. (Scans would > be perfect if it is easy for you to create them, but providing the > citation data by itself would be great. [Scans cannot be sent to the > list, of course]) > > Thanks, Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 19:58:14 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 15:58:14 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108061624.p76AmUWY001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The biggest problem I have with the Churchill quote is that it's too absurdly optimistic. If he'd said "may be" instead of "will be," I'd have no problem. I'm sure the context of the remark would have modified the sense somewhat too. Hirschbein also seems to believe that the phrase "balance of terror" was turned into "mutually assured destruction" because "terror" required a euphemism to keep the public behind it. Like 1. "mutually assured destruction" (aka "MAD") isn't almost equally scary. 2. the professional users of such terms are so easily distracted that they can't remember what they're really talking about. (I'm sure there were some Strangelove types, of course.) 3. "MAD" ousted "balance of terror" from the strategic lexicon. Of course the Defense Department (formerly the War Department) is always on the lookout, like everybody else, for attractive euphemisms. But Hirschbein's article presents something like a strong Worf-Sapir hypothesis, apparently calculated by madmen to fool themselves and everyone else, that makes everything worse than it is already. To continue my rant: he also ridicules the proverb, "If you wish for peace, prepare for war," by suggesting its absolute interchangeability with "If you wish for war, prepare for war." It's great when you can sum up war, peace, diplomacy,and MAD in a couple of easy-to-remember slogans. Saves brain work. JL JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > BTW, Hirschbein's "plain English" is no substitute for Churchill's > original. He simply failed to understand the quote that he based his > whole hyperventilating tirade on. In that context, what's a little > perversion of a common idiom! > > VS-) > > On 8/6/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ... > > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy > > of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, [we] > > have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, and > > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence > > is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and > the > > others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > > increased_." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 6 20:40:18 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 16:40:18 -0400 Subject: "Narrative" again Message-ID: In an article in today's NYTimes on the conviction of five New Orleans police offers of unjustified shooting of six citizens just after Hurricane Katrina, Campbell Robertson writes: "The trial was not only about these five officers but also about what exactly happened in the weeks after the hurricane, a sort of judgment on the initial widely held belief that the authorities were trying to control elements of a citizenry run rampant. ":In the years since, that narrative has been qualified. While some people did turn to crime and violence, it has become apparent that some of the bloodshed and chaos was brought about by members of the long-troubled Police Department." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 6 21:43:18 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 14:43:18 -0700 Subject: Hibakusha Message-ID: In ADS list message 5915, 17 April 2000, Barry Popik mentions that he sees the word "hibakusha" all over Hiroshima Peace Park. He also notes that it's not in the OED, and it still is not. (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0004C&L=ADS-L&P=R928&I=-3&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches) Because the anniversaries of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima atomic bombings are upon us, the word is in the news right now. In an article in the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/in-a-switch-japans-a-bomb-survivors-turn-against-nuclear-energy/2011/08/04/gIQALjBzvI_story.html) dated yesterday, Chico Harlan uses the word without italics, but does describe the meaning: ----- But most of the bombing survivors, known as hibakusha, have long had a far more complex, and often positive, view of nuclear power ? which partly explains why Japan now has reactors along almost every rural swath of its shoreline, 54 in all, accounting for about 30 percent of the national power supply. ----- Outside of Google Books, the earliest citation I can find on Google is June 1977, when the magazine Penthouse ran a story titled "The HIbakusha Gallery" by Edward Bryant. (See http://www.wonderclub.com/magazines/adult_magazine_single_page.php?magid=penthouse&u=PENT197706.) In the years after that, my manual searching on Google showed there is a scattering of hits each year, until 2001 when the number of hits suddenly increases dramatically. The earliest Google Books citation I see is 1961: "Children of the ashes: the story of a rebirth" by Robert Jungk (http://books.google.com/books?id=vIA1AAAAIAAJ&q=hibakusha&dq=hibakusha&hl=en&ei=17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA) Italics are used, indicated here by underscores: ----- ...the Japanese began to think less about the 'cold-hearted Americans' and more about their own failure to do anything to ameliorate the suffering of the _hibakusha_. (page 278) Yet now, in Hiroshima, the foundation stone had been laid for a new hospital to care for the atomic sick. (Incidentally, not a single _hibakusha_ had been invited to attend this ceremony.) (page 288) ----- An earlier hit in 1953 reveals the word spelled in capitals, but it is in Japanese and translated as "atomic bomb survivors" (http://books.google.com/books?id=JqITAQAAMAAJ&q=hibakusha&dq=hibakusha&hl=en&ei=17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ). "Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary" (known as "The Green Goddess"), fourth edition, 1974 (impressed 1993), has hibaku as a headword and hibakusha listed under it: "a victim of an atomic air raid." The "New Shogakukan Random House English-Japanese Dictionary", second edition, 1994, gives a citation of 1970 for hibakusha. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From indigo at WELL.COM Sat Aug 6 21:51:44 2011 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 14:51:44 -0700 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom Message-ID: Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& expanded) the duties of "yum"? Made-up examples using cupcakes: I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... Cupcakes! Nom nom! We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! -- Indigo Som indigo at well.com http://www.indigosom.com http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jsalmons at WISC.EDU Sat Aug 6 22:02:54 2011 From: jsalmons at WISC.EDU (Joseph Salmons) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 17:02:54 -0500 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062151.p76B0pQX003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's been fast. On Aug 6, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Indigo Som wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Indigo Som > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > -- > Indigo Som > indigo at well.com > http://www.indigosom.com > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 6 22:05:52 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 15:05:52 -0700 Subject: Hibakusha In-Reply-To: <201108062143.p76AmUkc001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I forgot to check the more recent edition of the Green Goddess. In the 2003 edition of "Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary," the definition indicates that the English word "hibakusha" is a narrowing of the Japanese ??? (hibakusha). The definitions of ??? given are: a person who was exposed to radiation from an A-[H-]bomb a survivor [victim] of an A-[H-] bomb [an atomic air raid] {of Hiroshima/Nagasaki} a _hibakusha_ Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 6, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Hibakusha > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In ADS list message 5915, 17 April 2000, Barry Popik mentions that he = > sees the word "hibakusha" all over Hiroshima Peace Park. He also notes = > that it's not in the OED, and it still is not. = > (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0004C&L=3DADS-L&P=3DR= > 928&I=3D-3&d=3DNo+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches) > > Because the anniversaries of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima atomic bombings = > are upon us, the word is in the news right now. In an article in the = > Washington Post = > (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/in-a-switch-japans-a-bom= > b-survivors-turn-against-nuclear-energy/2011/08/04/gIQALjBzvI_story.html) = > dated yesterday, Chico Harlan uses the word without italics, but does = > describe the meaning: > > ----- > But most of the bombing survivors, known as hibakusha, have long had a = > far more complex, and often positive, view of nuclear power =97 which = > partly explains why Japan now has reactors along almost every rural = > swath of its shoreline, 54 in all, accounting for about 30 percent of = > the national power supply. > ----- > > Outside of Google Books, the earliest citation I can find on Google is = > June 1977, when the magazine Penthouse ran a story titled "The HIbakusha = > Gallery" by Edward Bryant. (See = > http://www.wonderclub.com/magazines/adult_magazine_single_page.php?magid=3D= > penthouse&u=3DPENT197706.) In the years after that, my manual searching = > on Google showed there is a scattering of hits each year, until 2001 = > when the number of hits suddenly increases dramatically.=20 > > The earliest Google Books citation I see is 1961: "Children of the = > ashes: the story of a rebirth" by Robert Jungk = > (http://books.google.com/books?id=3DvIA1AAAAIAAJ&q=3Dhibakusha&dq=3Dhibaku= > sha&hl=3Den&ei=3D17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=3DX&oi=3Dbook_result&ct=3Dresul= > t&resnum=3D1&ved=3D0CDAQ6AEwAA) > > Italics are used, indicated here by underscores: > ----- > ...the Japanese began to think less about the 'cold-hearted Americans' = > and more about their own failure to do anything to ameliorate the = > suffering of the _hibakusha_. (page 278) > > Yet now, in Hiroshima, the foundation stone had been laid for a new = > hospital to care for the atomic sick. (Incidentally, not a single = > _hibakusha_ had been invited to attend this ceremony.) (page 288) > ----- > > An earlier hit in 1953 reveals the word spelled in capitals, but it is = > in Japanese and translated as "atomic bomb survivors" = > (http://books.google.com/books?id=3DJqITAQAAMAAJ&q=3Dhibakusha&dq=3Dhibaku= > sha&hl=3Den&ei=3D17E9TuGPLeOLsQLtjoHCBw&sa=3DX&oi=3Dbook_result&ct=3Dresul= > t&resnum=3D2&ved=3D0CDQQ6AEwAQ). > > "Kenkyusha's New Japanese-English Dictionary" (known as "The Green = > Goddess"), fourth edition, 1974 (impressed 1993), has hibaku as a = > headword and hibakusha listed under it: "a victim of an atomic air = > raid." > > The "New Shogakukan Random House English-Japanese Dictionary", second = > edition, 1994, gives a citation of 1970 for hibakusha. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 22:08:04 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:08:04 -0400 Subject: paranoid In-Reply-To: <201105090247.p48AlIL7023046@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Back in May Victor Steinbok initiated a thread about the following quotation (in its myriad manifestations): Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. I was finally able to check a Google Books snippet citation in Esquire magazine on microfilm. The GB database did not specify a month and the page number given was inaccurate. This is the earliest cite I have located that attributed a variant of the remark to the poet Delmore Schwartz. Cite: 1968 March, Esquire, Politics by Dwight Macdonald, Start Page 14, Quote Page 16, Volume 69, Number 3, Esquire Inc., Chicago, Illinois. (Verified on microfilm) But that McCarthy is in cahoots with Johnson on Vietnam would bother me if I could believe it, which I can't, too baroque for my set of mind. Granted that, as Delmore Schwartz remarked when someone accused him, justly, of paranoia, "Even paranoiacs have some real enemies." There are some cites with earlier dates in the list archives. For example, in July 1967 the existence of a button with the expression "Even Paranoids Have Real Enemies" was noted in the magazine Christianity Today. YBQ recorded a 1933 precursor from the pen of Dorothy L. Sayers "Because a person has monomania she need not be wrong about her facts." Victor gave citations to various publications including one that quoted Kissinger. Garson On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 10:47 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: paranoid > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I am having a moment of doubt--the line is clearly in the movie version of > Catch-22 (1970): > > Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you. > > > But is it in the book (1961, but written over about 8 years)? Because, if it > isn't... > > Well, just search around--it's credited to everyone from ACLU to Abbie > Hoffman. One credit I did not find: Joseph Heller. > > Oh, and BTW, Rahm Emanuel stole a similar line from Kissinger: Even a > paranoid (or "paranoids") can have enemies (or "has real enemies"). > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 6 22:31:08 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:31:08 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062203.p76AmUlS001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's been fast. -- Are those discussions recorded? In AS? On-line? I suppose maybe "yum" + "nosh"? -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 22:46:29 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:46:29 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral Message-ID: Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation or her body lingo. Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather than "Chairperson." "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 23:18:55 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:18:55 -0400 Subject: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] In-Reply-To: <201108061413.p76AmURm001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Allow me to play Derrida's Advocate. (God, how I hate this....) I believe his point is that the events of, leading up to, following, and comprehensively connected with the September 11 attacks are, when you get right down to it, of practically infinite diversity and complexity. In fact, no two people would or could give you the same summary, because the topic is, on the one hand, unknowable in its factual totality and, on the other, utterly subjective in its meaning (Bush says bad, Bin Laden says good. Who knows for sure? And why should I believe you if you try to answer the question?) Thus, when you refer to the entire _gestalt_, or even part of it, as "Nine- Eleven" or some other short hand that makes communication possible, you don't know what you're talking about because you don't know all the details, and you couldn't make final sense out of them if you did. So it all boils down to (yawn) just another game (or perhaps "narrative") in the endless play of signs. I believe that D would say that *any* reaction or response is pathetically irrational because none of us has the knowledge or ability to know the "truth," assuming that there even is a "truth" to be known. There could be, but maybe not; and if there is, we can't establish it anyway; and if "we" could - depending on who you mean by "we," kimosabe - there's really no reason for the non-we "Other" - say at the Bin Laden Compound or somewhere on Mars in the 39th century - to believe a word we say. How can they trust "our" judgment?) So admit your ignorance and, assuming that any action at all can have a truly rational basis, you can't really can't do any better than buying more books by Derrida.) J.-F. Baudrillard observed something similar about what was absurdly called the "1991 Gulf War." Something presumably happened, but its totality had only a minimal resemblance to the reporting and thinking about it. So, strictly speaking, "the Gulf War (or 'Gulf War' if you're picky) did not take place." What took place, if anything, was unknowable. What's more, anything you believe about it has been filtered and mediated repeatedly by those in or with power, along with their lackeys and proxies. So wise up and don't believe a word of it. Buy books by Baudrillard instead. I believe that similar postmodern solutions may be profitably applied to issues of national security, defense policy, military strategy, nuclear proliferation, and the like. They might work on the crummy economy too. But whether they do or not may have more to do with the inevitable consequences of the (alleged) Big Bang than with anything anybody actually thinks up on their own. So let the good times roll! JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/5/2011 05:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >But Hirschbein seems to > >believe that his use own of "no substitute for" is perfectly lucid. His > >research over the years "focused on postmodern approaches to nuclear > >crises." (Think about *that* one!) > > I am thinking. And I imagine Hirschbein saying about Hiroshima what > Derrida wrote about 9/11, as noted by Edward Rothstein in an > appraisal shortly after he died. I find I did not ever send this to ADS-L. > > The New York Times, Monday October 11, 2004, "An Appraisal: The Man > Who Showed Us How to Take the World Apart", by Edward Rothstein, page > B1 -- its last few paragraphs. Transcribed by me, at a time when I > did not have access to the NYTimes archives, with apologies for any > typos: It's still at > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/arts/music/11derr.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=rothtein%20man%20showed%20apart&st=cse > > But of course, one reason for the extraordinary success of Derrida's > ideas is that they also followed an orthodoxy in which rebellion is > privileged over tradition and iconoclasm over authority. Independence > is declared; obeisance is dismissed. This devotion to autonomy, > accompanied by a spirit of play, is partly what gave Derrida a > following in America far more enduring than that in France. His > radical anti-authoritarianism and counter-Western ideas also gave him > an empathetic reception on the international political left. > But this orthodoxy, too, can be as ruthless and demanding as > any other. This may have been why Derrida could often become mannered > and puerile, endlessly turning rebellion on itself. And late in his > life, Derrida, bristling at charges that he was a relativist, tried > to find some sort of firm, unshakeable ground upon which to stand a > notion of political activity and justice that might justify his > triumphant orthodoxy. To no avail. In the recent book, "Philosophy in > a Time of Terror," here is what he said about 9/11: > "We do not in fact know what we are saying or naming in this > way: September 11, le 11 septembre, September11. The brevity of the > appellation (September 11, 9/11) stems not only from an economic or > rhetorical necessity. The telegram of this metonymy -- a name, a > number -- points out the unqualifiable by recognizing that we do not > recognize or even cognize that we do not yet know how to qualify, > that we do not know what we are talking about." > The rest is silence. > > [The last sentence above is not mine; it is the last in Rothstein's > article.] > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 23:25:09 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:25:09 -0400 Subject: Rooster makes mo' racket dan de hin w'at lay de aig (Joel Chandler Harris 1881) Message-ID: Joel Chandler Harris and his Uncle Remus character have been discussed on the list in conjunction with the term tar baby. Recently, I came across one of his 1881 proverbs while tracing a quotation. I think that a saying Harris recorded about roosters and hens has been transformed over time to yield a modern political barb. The cock may crow but it's the hen who lays the egg. These words are typically attributed to the UK politician Margaret Thatcher. In one anecdote she was supposed to deliver a speech to a largely male political audience and her talk was delayed. Other male orators spoke before her and when she finally reached the platform she made the remark given above. Tracing backward I found the following instances of variants of the saying: 'It's the rooster that does the crowing', she said, 'but it's the hen that lays the egg.' (1977 GB unverified) The rooster makes more clatter than the hen that lays the egg. (1958 GB unverified) Please note this little fact, I beg: It is the hen that lays the egg; the rooster does the yelling; he flaps his silly wings and crows, and points with pride a while, and throws some fits around your dwelling. (1916) http://books.google.com/books?id=xIJRAAAAYAAJ&q=flaps#v=snippet& Rooster makes mo' racket dan de hin w'at lay de aig. (1881) http://books.google.com/books?id=GyOAajmsAKIC&q=%22de+hin%22#v=snippet& The last statement is listed under "Plantation Proverbs" in "Uncle Remus: His Songs and His Sayings" (1881) by Joel Chandler Harris. Of course, earlier cites may exist. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 6 23:32:26 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:32:26 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062246.p76B0MxO010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I should mention too that although the "Rape of the Sabine Women" was alluded to in passing as something naughtily amusing, the numerous later allusions to the absurdly staged fake "rape" whose planning occupies much of the play were mostly or entirely replaced by the word "raid." (E.g., more or less, "What sort of a raid did you have in mind?") Also, the character who played a fake Indian was referred to as an "Indian" but later as "not really a Native American." JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "notorious" goes neutral > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > or > her body lingo. > > Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > than "Chairperson." > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Aug 6 23:58:59 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:58:59 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062231.p76AmUmA001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > Joseph Salmons wrote: > > Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the > > American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some l > > length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's > > been fast. > > Are those discussions recorded? In AS? On-line? > > I suppose maybe "yum" + "nosh"? I covered _nom_ in "Among the New Words" (with Charles Carson) in the latest edition of American Speech (86:192-214). http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/content/vol86/issue2/index.dtl >From the introduction: "In the main category [of Word of the Year], _app_ beat out another three-letter word: _nom_, an onomatopoetic form suggesting pleasurable eating, used as an interjection, noun or verb. _Nom_ traveled from Sesame Street?s Cookie Monster (whose voracious noises are often represented as ?om nom nom nom?) to the online images known as ?lolcats,? and on to wider usage thanks in part to Twitter. Despite the seeming novelty of _nom_, it joins a well-established class of gustatory sound symbolism. The earliest examples catalogued by the Oxford English Dictionary derive from Caribbean English: _yam_ (1725), _nyam_ (1790), and _ninyam_ (1826). Of more recent vintage are _yum_ (1878), _yummy_ (1899), _num_ (1899), and _nummy_ (1923)." Citations are provided for _nom_, _nom nom_, _om nom nom_, _nom nom nom_, etc. The earliest we found is from 2002: 2002 June 30 Siobhan Perricone rec.food.cooking (Usenet newsgroup) http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/a6a350ac3a7492b9 I just slather on the butter thickly, and they never last long enough to get soggy. OM NOM NOM! --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Aug 7 00:21:30 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 19:21:30 -0500 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet Message-ID: Yes, soft lead Minie balls would expand somewhat on impact, but "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets which are designed for controlled expansion, which Minie balls were not. The modern Foster (or Forster) rifled slug for shotguns is the rough equivalent of the Minie, although the hollow base is intended to keep it flying nose first. How much they expand, typically fired at higher velocities than (US) Civil War muzzle-loading black powder rifles, is debatable. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet Nice try, Larry. But no. The writer may have been trying to say that a man shooting a rifle loaded with a Minie ball might fire accurately at 250 yards, but the ball could still be deadly at 500. That may be an understatement: Minie balls were .58-caliber, conical, and made of soft lead; in other words, huge dumdum bullets. JL On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 1, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> I think an argument could be made either way. > > > > You can construct an argument in defense of the claim that it makes > > sense to state that a weapon merely "effective" in combat at 250 yards > > is "deadly" in combat at 500 yards, instead of the other way around? > > > > Do it, then. > > "effective" = 'achieving the intended purpose', in this case hitting the > intended target > "deadly" = 'resulting in death', not necessarily of the intended target > > My example in the earlier part of the excerpted e-mail was intended to > illustrate this possibility. Let's see?yes, > > "If I had some varmints in my back yard and decided to eliminate them by > dropping a tactical nuclear device on the critters, wiping them out along > with my house, the neighborhood, and half the city, the bomb would > certainly > be deadly, but would it be effective?" > > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 01:31:21 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:31:21 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Postmodern" Message-ID: postmodern (OED 1917) 1916 _American Magazine of Art_ May 277 (JSTOR) GUS MAGER, one of the few "post" modern painters whose sincerity is convincing, was born in Newark at 1878 of parents born in Newark. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 01:48:38 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:48:38 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Interdisciplinary" Message-ID: interdisciplinary (OED 1937) 1931 _Library Quarterly_ July 292 (JSTOR) This relates to our present discussion by emphasizing the need for librarians to formulate interdisciplinary problems with reference to the present interests of the desired collaborator. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 01:56:32 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:56:32 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Zoning" Message-ID: zoning (OED, 2., 1912) 1911 _Town Planning Review_ Oct. 214 (JSTOR) The seventh session was on "Legal and Administrative Methods," conducted by A. W. Crawford, Assistant City Solicitor of Philadelphia. He pleaded the desirability of a Uniform City Planning Code; in particular calling for excess condemnation, the assessing of benefits on abutters, zoning, lex adickes, and the granting of much more power to the Board of Surveyors. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Sun Aug 7 02:16:11 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 21:16:11 -0500 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108062151.p76B0pQX003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Doesn't "nom" have a connotation of gluttony that is lacking in "yum"? > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Indigo Som > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 4:52 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Indigo Som > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > -- > Indigo Som > indigo at well.com > http://www.indigosom.com > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 02:35:12 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 22:35:12 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108070216.p76AmUt0001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I hear it nowadays as "num num!" I've also heard the transitional "nyum-nyum!" - for decades, I'm sure. JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Doesn't "nom" have a connotation of gluttony that is lacking in "yum"? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Indigo Som > > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 4:52 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Indigo Som > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > > -- > > Indigo Som > > indigo at well.com > > http://www.indigosom.com > > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Sun Aug 7 03:24:37 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 03:24:37 +0000 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062246.p76B0pRb003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's my impression that neutral "notoriety" is even more common. --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 6:46 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation or her body lingo. Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather than "Chairperson." "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 03:48:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:48:53 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062246.p76B0MxO010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Note too, ..., that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > than [as] "Chairperson." > Good for her! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 03:54:32 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:54:32 -0400 Subject: postmodern approaches [Was: More on substituting] In-Reply-To: <201108062319.p76B0Mxg010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 7:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I believe his point is that the events of, leading up to, following, and > comprehensively connected with the September 11 attacks are, when you get > right down to it, of practically infinite diversity and complexity. ? In > fact, no two people would or could give you the same summary, because the > topic is, on the one hand, ? unknowable in its factual totality and, on the > other, utterly subjective in its meaning (Bush says bad, Bin Laden says > good. Who knows for sure? And why should I believe you if you try to answer > the question?) > > Thus, when you refer to the entire _gestalt_, or even part of it, as "Nine- > Eleven" or some other short hand that makes communication possible, you > don't know what you're talking about because you don't know all the details, > and you couldn't make final sense out of them if you did. > > So it all boils down to (yawn) just another game (or perhaps "narrative") in > the endless play of signs. > > I believe that D would say that *any* reaction or response is pathetically > irrational because none of us has the knowledge or ability to know the > "truth," assuming that there even is a "truth" to be known. > > There could be, but maybe not; and if there is, we can't establish it > anyway; and if "we" could - depending on who you mean by "we," kimosabe - > there's really no reason for the non-we "Other" - say at the Bin Laden > Compound or somewhere on Mars in the 39th century - to believe a word we > say. How can they trust "our" judgment?) > > So admit your ignorance and, assuming that any action at all can have a > truly rational basis, you can't really can't do any better than buying > more books by Derrida.) > > J.-F. Baudrillard observed something similar about what was absurdly called > the "1991 Gulf War." ? Something presumably happened, but its totality had > only a minimal resemblance to the reporting and thinking about it. So, > strictly speaking, "the Gulf War (or 'Gulf War' if you're picky) did not > take place." > > What took place, if anything, was unknowable. ? What's more, anything you > believe about it has been filtered and mediated repeatedly by those in or > with power, along with their lackeys and proxies. ? So wise up and don't > believe a word of it. ? Buy books by Baudrillard instead. > > I believe that similar postmodern solutions may be profitably applied to > issues of national security, defense policy, military strategy, nuclear > proliferation, and the like. > > They might work on the crummy economy too. ? But whether they do or not may > have more to do with the inevitable consequences of the (alleged) Big Bang > than with anything anybody actually thinks up on their own. > > So let the good times roll! > Indeed.:-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 04:23:37 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 00:23:37 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108070022.p76B0M0a010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Dave Hause wrote: > "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets which are designed for controlled expansion "The 'dum-dum [bullet]' was a British military bullet developed for use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in the late 1890s. The [original] dum-dum [was] a jacketed .303[-calibre] bullet with the jacket's _nose open_ to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact. The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use of dum-dum bullets during warfare." http://goo.gl/qXjfX It's been written somewhere that this measure passed because it was realized that the dum-dum was more likely to cause a wound with immediately-fatal consequences than other types of bullets. Not good. Dead soldiers are not a problem. But _wounded_ soldiers? For them, you need a whole medical corps with doctors, nurses, medics, MASH's, etc., etc., etc. If you can make warfare a pain in the ass... [to have one's] nose open "to be totally infatuated" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 04:26:18 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 00:26:18 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108070235.p76B0M32010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I've also heard the transitional "nyum-nyum!" - _for decades, I'm sure_. I'm sure, too. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 08:28:52 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 04:28:52 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108061244.p76B0pIr003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > One nuance is obviously, "a very black person," not just a black person. Something along the lines of the way that black people say, "two shades blacker than Bell telephone" "black enough to leave a streak through tar" "Of Indian deacent, Choctaw. The lightest is chocolate, the darkest is tar" perhaps? Or do you have in mind what "tar-baby" means when white people use it, such as when - in literature, anyway, white people describe black people as "plum-blue; coal-black; purple-black; so black that even the whites of his eyes were brown"; "ebon-hued;" and it's not intended that the reader, of whatever subdivision of humanity, is should feel that any of this is meant to be other than a racial - and racist - slight? I've long felt that that was the case. But, Youneverknow. It's always pleasant to have your worst fears confirmed. Here, I've lived nearly three-quarters of a century without ever realizing before that, if a white person speaks or writes "tar-baby," he means it as an insult. Good to know! > My brothers and sister used to call me "tar baby." That would hurt me. Some black person is saying this, I take it? FWIW, certain members of my family used to call me stuff. That would hurt me. IAC, four documented examples of "tar-baby" outside of Harris's Meisterstueck! That has to prove something that *far* more meaningful than anything that I could undocumentedly say. But I can't figure out what it is. -- -Wilson Gray ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 11:55:49 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 07:55:49 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108070424.p76AmU42001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The moral's the same: don't get hit by a Minie ball. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Dave Hause wrote: > > "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets > which are designed for controlled expansion > > > "The 'dum-dum [bullet]' was a British military bullet developed for > use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in > the late 1890s. > > The [original] dum-dum [was] a jacketed .303[-calibre] bullet with the > jacket's _nose open_ to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve > the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact. > > The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or > hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use > of dum-dum bullets during warfare." > > http://goo.gl/qXjfX > > > It's been written somewhere that this measure passed because it was > realized that the dum-dum was more likely to cause a wound with > immediately-fatal consequences than other types of bullets. Not good. > Dead soldiers are not a problem. But _wounded_ soldiers? For them, you > need a whole medical corps with doctors, nurses, medics, MASH's, etc., > etc., etc. > > If you can make warfare a pain in the ass... > > > [to have one's] nose open "to be totally infatuated" > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 12:04:17 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 08:04:17 -0400 Subject: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? In-Reply-To: <201108070829.p76AmU9m001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The relativistic nature of "tar baby" means your own personal race doesn't matter. There's always somebody else you can call "tar baby," and they'll hate it. Which is probably why such terms have survived. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 4:28 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Is "tar baby" in "All in the Family"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > One nuance is obviously, "a very black person," not just a black person. > > Something along the lines of the way that black people say, > > "two shades blacker than Bell telephone" > "black enough to leave a streak through tar" > "Of Indian deacent, Choctaw. The lightest is chocolate, the darkest is tar" > > perhaps? > > Or do you have in mind what "tar-baby" means when white people use it, > such as when - in literature, anyway, white people describe black > people as "plum-blue; coal-black; purple-black; so black that even the > whites of his eyes were brown"; "ebon-hued;" and it's not intended > that the reader, of whatever subdivision of humanity, is should feel > that any of this is meant to be other than a racial - and racist - > slight? > > I've long felt that that was the case. But, > > Youneverknow. > > It's always pleasant to have your worst fears confirmed. Here, I've > lived nearly three-quarters of a century without ever realizing before > that, if a white person speaks or writes "tar-baby," he means it as an > insult. > > Good to know! > > > My brothers and sister used to call me "tar baby." That would hurt me. > > Some black person is saying this, I take it? > > FWIW, certain members of my family used to call me stuff. That would hurt > me. > > IAC, four documented examples of "tar-baby" outside of Harris's > Meisterstueck! That has to prove something that *far* more meaningful > than anything that I could undocumentedly say. But I can't figure out > what it is. > > -- > -Wilson Gray > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Sun Aug 7 12:30:42 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:30:42 -0300 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108062332.p76B0M06010010@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Was she a native English speaker? Notorious in, for example, Portuguese (notorio) just means widely/generally known, without any negative implications. DAD -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter I should mention too that although the "Rape of the Sabine Women" was alluded to in passing as something naughtily amusing, the numerous later allusions to the absurdly staged fake "rape" whose planning occupies much of the play were mostly or entirely replaced by the word "raid." (E.g., more or less, "What sort of a raid did you have in mind?") Also, the character who played a fake Indian was referred to as an "Indian" but later as "not really a Native American." JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > : "notorious" goes neutral > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > or > her body lingo. > > Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > than "Chairperson." > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 7 13:17:13 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:17:13 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of >the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... > >Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather >than "Chairperson." One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as not to imply a particular sex." Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:19:14 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:19:14 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108071231.p77Amutv009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Absolutely. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 8:30 AM, David A. Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "David A. Daniel" > Subject: Re: "notorious" goes neutral > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Was she a native English speaker? Notorious in, for example, Portuguese > (notorio) just means widely/generally known, without any negative > implications. > DAD > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Jonathan Lighter > > > > I should mention too that although the "Rape of the Sabine Women" was > alluded to in passing as something naughtily amusing, the numerous later > allusions to the absurdly staged fake "rape" whose planning occupies much > of > the play were mostly or entirely replaced by the word "raid." (E.g., more > or less, "What sort of a raid did you have in mind?") > > Also, the character who played a fake Indian was referred to as an "Indian" > but later as "not really a Native American." > > JL > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > > : "notorious" goes neutral > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > > > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > > or > > her body lingo. > > > > Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > > than "Chairperson." > > > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:28:29 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:28:29 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071317.p77As8h6025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. Or do I mean "gender"? JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > >the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... > > > >Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather > >than "Chairperson." > > One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for > the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested > with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an > alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as > not to imply a particular sex." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 7 13:29:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:29:51 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by the > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her intonation > or > her body lingo. > ... > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' But it does, and did -- I. With neutral or favourable connotations. 1.b. Of a person, place, etc.: well or widely known; famous; (in later use) esp. noted for a particular quality or feature. [Quotations from 1555 to 1992.] I agree, however, that in 'Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_."', everyone today is likely to take it as -- II. With depreciative or unfavourable connotations. 5. Well known on account of something which is not generally approved of or admired; unfavourably known; noted for some bad practice, quality, etc. b. Of a person, place, etc. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:48:55 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet In-Reply-To: <201108071155.p77Ap918009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: ...or a Mickey ball... VS-) On 8/7/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The moral's the same: don't get hit by a Minie ball. > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Misinterpretation of name of a Civil War bullet >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Dave Hause wrote: >> > "dumdum" is slang for soft-point or hollow-point **jacketed** bullets >> which are designed for controlled expansion >> >> >> "The 'dum-dum [bullet]' was a British military bullet developed for >> use in India - at the Dum-Dum Arsenal - on the North West Frontier in >> the late 1890s. >> >> The [original] dum-dum [was] a jacketed .303[-calibre] bullet with the >> jacket's _nose open_ to expose its lead core. The aim was to improve >> the bullet's effectiveness by increasing its expansion upon impact. >> >> The phrase 'dum-dum' was later taken to include any soft-nosed or >> hollow pointed bullet. The Hague Convention of 1899 outlawed the use >> of dum-dum bullets during warfare." >> >> http://goo.gl/qXjfX >> >> >> It's been written somewhere that this measure passed because it was >> realized that the dum-dum was more likely to cause a wound with >> immediately-fatal consequences than other types of bullets. Not good. >> Dead soldiers are not a problem. But _wounded_ soldiers? For them, you >> need a whole medical corps with doctors, nurses, medics, MASH's, etc., >> etc., etc. >> >> If you can make warfare a pain in the ass... >> >> >> [to have one's] nose open "to be totally infatuated" >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 13:52:56 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:52:56 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071328.p77As8ho025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This discussion reminds me of Frank Herbert's "chairdogs"--"living furniture". I don't believe he ever mentioned gender. VS-) On 8/7/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be > "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. > > Or do I mean "gender"? > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of >> >the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... >> > >> >Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather >> >than "Chairperson." >> >> One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for >> the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested >> with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an >> alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as >> not to imply a particular sex." >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 14:09:05 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 10:09:05 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108062359.p76AmUoQ001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This one is not before 2002 (2010), but might be of interest. And it does not imply gluttony ;-) http://books.google.com/books?id=K8qzZ7NWsvgC&pg=PA105 VS-) On 8/6/11, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> Joseph Salmons wrote: >> > Check out the discussions from last year's Word of the Year at the >> > American Dialect Society meeting, where it was discussed at some l >> > length. I don't know of anything quantitative about its rise, but it's >> > been fast. >> >> Are those discussions recorded? In AS? On-line? >> >> I suppose maybe "yum" + "nosh"? > > I covered _nom_ in "Among the New Words" (with Charles Carson) in the latest > edition of American Speech (86:192-214). > > http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/content/vol86/issue2/index.dtl > > From the introduction: > > "In the main category [of Word of the Year], _app_ beat out another > three-letter > word: _nom_, an onomatopoetic form suggesting pleasurable eating, used as an > interjection, noun or verb. _Nom_ traveled from Sesame Street?s Cookie > Monster > (whose voracious noises are often represented as ?om nom nom nom?) to the > online images known as ?lolcats,? and on to wider usage thanks in part to > Twitter. Despite the seeming novelty of _nom_, it joins a well-established > class of gustatory sound symbolism. The earliest examples catalogued by the > Oxford English Dictionary derive from Caribbean English: _yam_ (1725), > _nyam_ > (1790), and _ninyam_ (1826). Of more recent vintage are _yum_ (1878), > _yummy_ > (1899), _num_ (1899), and _nummy_ (1923)." > > Citations are provided for _nom_, _nom nom_, _om nom nom_, _nom nom nom_, > etc. > The earliest we found is from 2002: > > 2002 June 30 Siobhan Perricone rec.food.cooking (Usenet newsgroup) > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/a6a350ac3a7492b9 I > just > slather on the butter thickly, and they never last long enough to get soggy. > OM > NOM NOM! > > --bgz > > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Aug 7 15:00:56 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:00:56 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108071409.p77As8iQ025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:09 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > > On 8/6/11, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> I covered _nom_ in "Among the New Words" (with Charles Carson) in the latest >> edition of American Speech (86:192-214). >> >> http://americanspeech.dukejournals.org/content/vol86/issue2/index.dtl [...] >> Citations are provided for _nom_, _nom nom_, _om nom nom_, _nom nom nom_, >> etc. The earliest we found is from 2002: >> >> 2002 June 30 Siobhan Perricone rec.food.cooking (Usenet newsgroup) >> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.cooking/msg/a6a350ac3a7492b9 I >> just slather on the butter thickly, and they never last long enough to get soggy. >> OM NOM NOM! > > This one is not before 2002 (2010), but might be of interest. And it > does not imply gluttony ;-) > > http://books.google.com/books?id=K8qzZ7NWsvgC&pg=PA105 Yes, we included that in the quotation paragraph for "nom" in "Among the New Words." See AmSp for more. (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 7 15:36:49 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:36:49 -0400 Subject: "hourly", noun, "public conveyance that runs every hour", antedated nearly 50 years Message-ID: Here is a vision of the future of New York City. It also offers a considerable antedating of one sense of "hourly" as a noun. It fails by one year to antedate one sense of "accommodation" as a noun, and "railroad" as a verb, but the current version of the "railroad" entry in OED -- I suppose that a revision is in hand even now -- has a nearly 20 year gap between the earliest and the second appearances. A rail road could be constructed through Broadway, so as not to prevent waggons, carts, and carriages from crossing at any particular point. *** If it were advisable to rail road busy streets and thorough fares, it would put out of use entirely the "accommodations" and "hourly," now employed. A person could pass from Wall street to the Ninth Ward in five minutes -- the extremities of the city would be brought as near as the different ends of a single ward -- and a large extensive city would, in regards to transportation, be as accessible from one point to another as the densest village. *** Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 3, 1830, p. 2, col. 3 accommodation (noun) 6 b. ellipt. for accommodation stage n., accommodation train n. at Compounds. U.S. 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania II. 9, I?intended to take the Accommodation in the morning. 1877 ?E. W. Martin? Hist. Great Riots 117 The Sharpsville ?accommodation??had been lying for two hours without an engine. 1891 C. Roberts Adrift in Amer. ii. 33 We went on what is called an ?accommodation?, that is, a freight train with a passenger car at the end of it. hourly (adj) 2 b. as n. (U.S.) A public conveyance that runs every hour. 1877 J. R. Bartlett Dict. Americanisms (ed. 4) , Hourly, formerly used in and about Boston for an omnibus. 1881 Harper's Mag. Feb. 388 The terrors of the ?hourly? or omnibus. railroad, verb, 1829, 1848 railroad (verb) 1. trans. To construct railroads in (a country, etc.). Also fig. Now rare. 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania I. 123 They are canaling and rail-roading the whole country. 1848 E. Cook Poems (ed. 3) II. Pref. p. ix, The public mind seems nearly as much railroaded as the country. &c. -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 15:49:58 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:49:58 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071317.p77As8h6025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Doesn't this confuse the function of "chair" with the title of "chairman"? The chairman normally chairs the meeting. If someone else chairs the meeting, they have the chair. They are the Chair. They are even addressed directly as Mr. Chairman for the purpose of the meeting. Someone who temporarily becomes Chair at a board meeting, however, is not said to become Chairman of the Board. They occupy the Chair, they even assume the dignity of the chair temporarily, but they don't assume the title of chairman. DanG On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:17 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/6/2011 06:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman of >>the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) ... >> >>Note too, as a curiosity, that she described herself as "Chairman" rather >>than "Chairperson." > > One could inform her that "chair" has a long and honored history for > the meaning of "the occupant of the chair, the chairman, as invested > with its dignity". going back to 1658, and is "Now also used as an > alternative for 'chairman' or 'chairwoman', esp. deliberately so as > not to imply a particular sex." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 15:59:24 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:59:24 -0400 Subject: "Narrative" again In-Reply-To: <201108062040.p76B0pOR003945@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A former Republican Congressman on CNN today: "Blaming 'right-wing Republicans' [for debt/deficit/budget difficulties] is a narrative that won't fly." I.e., a propaganda move. JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "Narrative" again > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In an article in today's NYTimes on the conviction of five New > Orleans police offers of unjustified shooting of six citizens just > after Hurricane Katrina, Campbell Robertson writes: > > "The trial was not only about these five officers but also > about what exactly happened in the weeks after the hurricane, a sort > of judgment on the initial widely held belief that the authorities > were trying to control elements of a citizenry run rampant. > > ":In the years since, that narrative has been qualified. While > some people did turn to crime and violence, it has become apparent > that some of the bloodshed and chaos was brought about by members of > the long-troubled Police Department." > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 7 16:14:03 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 12:14:03 -0400 Subject: "professor" = piano-player Message-ID: I'm not keeping up with the state of the revision of the OED: is this a new entry? In any case, a 30 year antedating. *musical party. sixth avenue tavern*. *Near the corner of Greenwich Lane and Sixth Avenue*. *** A Professor will preside at the Piano Forte. Admittance 12? cents, with a refreshment ticket. Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 14, 1830, p. 2, col. 7 5 *c.* *U.S.* *colloq.* A piano player in a saloon, brothel, dance hall, etc. Also: an orchestra leader. Now *hist.* 1860 ?N. Buntline? *Elfrida * lxxiv. 101/1 At one end of the room, elevated upon a low platform, was the ?music??consisting of the ill-tuned, or rather *untuned* piano aforementioned, and the ?professor?, a very seedy-looking gentleman. 1895 *N.Y. Times * 21 Jan. 7/5 The perfesser only went out for a drink. He feels better now, and asks permission to play the pianner for an hour. 1914 *Chicago Daily Tribune * 19 July viii. 8/1, I will now address myself to the professor orchestra leader. I want, sir, a waltz, well done. Years ago, I heard an elderly Jazz musician interviewed on radio -- name forgotten. He had an appointment as artist-in-residence at the music dept. of a major university, a gig that he very much enjoyed, especially to see so many young people interested in the music, and som of them very talented. He was happy to think that jazz would be played and enjoyed for decades to come. ONe thing troubled him, though. The students were eager to talk to him after class, and they greeted him on campus, but they always addressed him as "Professor" -- now, when he was a young man, a professor was a man who played piano in a whore house, and so, to him, it was a term of disrepute. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 16:27:33 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 12:27:33 -0400 Subject: "notorious" goes neutral In-Reply-To: <201108071330.p77Amuvj009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The OED may have missed the microsemantic boat here. All cites under 1b since 1865 are in the construction "notorious for." If I, for example, were to be described simply as "notorious," few people (even, I'd wager, in the erudite offices of the OED) would assume I was "notorious for [my] probity" or anything like it, as in the 1927 ex. from the American journalist and novelist Samuel Hopkins Adams (1871-1958), who graduated from college in 1891. _Cyrano de Bergerac_ and Edmond Rostand are not "notorious" in any readily predictable interpretation of the Chairman's quoted remarks. Even if I were to say, "Edmond Rostand is notorious *for his play*, _Cyrano de Bergerac_," without going on to detail (falsely) what a floperoo it was and how Rostand wound up in jail in the midst of riots, the statement would call attention to itself as thoroughly unidiomatic, at least without further negative clarification. But, of course, correct idiom is no substitute for faulty content. JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "notorious" goes neutral > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 6:46 PM, Jonathan Lighter >wrote: > > > Today we went to a local production of _The Fantasticks_. The Chairman > of > > the Board of the theater group (in her late '30s, I'd guess) introduced > > the performance by saying that it was based on a little-known play by > the > > "famous and notorious Edmond Rostand." > > > > Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano de Bergerac_." > > > > No, there was not a hint of irony or playfulness in either her > intonation > > or > > her body lingo. > > ... > > "Notorious" thus = 'noted; celebrated.' > > But it does, and did -- > > I. With neutral or favourable connotations. > 1.b. Of a person, place, etc.: well or widely known; famous; (in > later use) esp. noted for a particular quality or > feature. [Quotations from 1555 to 1992.] > > I agree, however, that in 'Rostand's "most notorious play was _Cyrano > de Bergerac_."', everyone today is likely to take it as -- > > II. With depreciative or unfavourable connotations. > 5. Well known on account of something which is not generally approved > of or admired; unfavourably known; noted for some bad practice, quality, > etc. > b. Of a person, place, etc. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 17:28:07 2011 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 12:28:07 -0500 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108070216.p76AmUt0001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've seen it on places like http://icanhascheezburger.com/?s=noms . The third picture down is usual usage. Didn't know it applied to people. Darla 2011/8/6 Mullins, Bill AMRDEC > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom (UNCLASSIFIED) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > Doesn't "nom" have a connotation of gluttony that is lacking in "yum"? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Indigo Som > > Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 4:52 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > --------------- > > -------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Indigo Som > > Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------- > > > > Sorry if this has been covered; I haven't been following the list > > closely but did check the archives & didn't see it. Have any of you > > professionals looked into "nom" & how it has so quickly overtaken (& > > expanded) the duties of "yum"? > > > > Made-up examples using cupcakes: > > I was nomming on a cupcake this afternoon when... > > Cupcakes! Nom nom! > > We have cupcakes, come get your nom on. > > > > I first saw it just within the past several months & now it seems > > like it's everywhere. Where did it come from?! > > -- > > Indigo Som > > indigo at well.com > > http://www.indigosom.com > > http://picturesofindigo.blogspot.com/ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 21:44:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 17:44:25 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108071328.p77As8ho025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be > "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. > > Or do I mean "gender"? > I'm in complete agreement with Jon. However, I realize that our opinions on these matters have very likely aged out of relevance. But, don't get biggety, young pepper-chests! Regardless of your current youthful relevance, you, too, have irrelevance in your futures and you'll be just as annoyed. My grandparents went to their graves pretending that the "bicycle," as this form of velocipede was known in my youth, was properly referred to only by the word, "wheel," to name only one. I, too, expect to go to my grave, annoyed by the manner in which people young enough to be my great-grandchildren are, even as I type, working to fuck up what was once a beautiful language, in the form in which it was bequeathed to me, ca. 1935-1965. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Sun Aug 7 22:03:52 2011 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:03:52 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: <201108071511.p77AmuxV009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) "Nom" came up when I posted a photo to flickr of people at a National Organization for Marriage rally. Both I and a young employee of mine thought the acronym "NOM" was giggle-worthy, given the lolcat referent. (NOM is an anti-same-sex marriage organization. They use the phrase "traditional marriage" to denote mixed-sex monogamous marriage, which I find disingenuous.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 22:13:04 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:13:04 -0400 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) Message-ID: There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film "It?s a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): Yeah, and you?re crazy. I?ll be sober tomorrow, but you?ll be crazy the rest of your life. Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be crazy for the rest of your life. Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what?s more you are disgustingly drunk."] Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what?s more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly. These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers Gale) A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day." The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the reference data that I have: Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the periodical: http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the anecdote that appeared here: Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen & Co., London. http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class of anecdotes. Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood & Co., New York. It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll be a hog to-morrow!" http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his life." http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. (Google Books full view) "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us ? "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but I have not verified each one of these citations yet. If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would be very appreciative. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 7 22:16:16 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:16:16 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar with this usage for years. Fred Shapiro ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: work 'plastic surgery' Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has undergone surgical improvement." --Charlie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 22:22:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:22:07 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' In-Reply-To: <201108072217.p77Ap9QE009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Me too. Ten years? More? JL On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar > with this usage for years. > > Fred Shapiro > > > > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: work 'plastic surgery' > > Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such > discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary > either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had > some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has > undergone surgical improvement." > > --Charlie > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 22:55:20 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:55:20 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' In-Reply-To: <201108072222.p77As8re025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an unverified example from Google Books of the phrase "work done" being used to refer to plastic surgery I believe. WorldCat agrees with GB on the 1968 date. Date probes look ok. Below is the relevant extracted text: Title: The youth doctors Author: Patrick M. McGrady, Jr. Publisher: New York : Coward-McCann, c1968. I mentioned the name of a much-married actress whose silky-smooth face and coquettish, sexy allure have made her the darling of cafe' society, top-rated nightclubs, and an occasional Hollywood film. "She's had some work done, shall I put it that way?" replied one doctor. "She said she didn't, but she did." http://books.google.com/books?id=YPlqAAAAMAAJ&q=%22some+work%22#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=K6azAAAAIAAJ&q=%22but+she+did%22#search_anchor Note, GB dates are sometimes inaccurate and extracted text sometimes contains errors. But I think this example is probably legitimate. On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Me too. Ten years? More? > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar >> with this usage for years. >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >> Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] >> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: work 'plastic surgery' >> >> Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such >> discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary >> either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had >> some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has >> undergone surgical improvement." >> >> --Charlie >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 23:04:50 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:04:50 -0400 Subject: "professor" = piano-player In-Reply-To: <201108071614.p77Ap9Aq009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Just a comment: Thomas Busby, whose "A complete dictionary of music" is dated 1811 in GB, defines "Pianist" as "One who plays on the piano-forte; a professor of that instrument", so the connection of a professor and a piano player seems to go back further in time. DanG On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 12:14 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: "professor" = piano-player > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm not keeping up with the state of the revision of the OED: is this a new > entry? In any case, a 30 year antedating. > > *musical party. sixth avenue tavern*. *Near the corner of Greenwich > Lane and Sixth Avenue*. *** A Professor will preside at the Piano > Forte. Admittance > 12=BD cents, with a refreshment ticket. > Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 14, 1830, p. 2, col. 7 > 5 *c.* *U.S.* *colloq.* A piano player in a saloon, brothel, dance hall, > etc. Also: an orchestra leader. Now *hist.* > 1860 =91N. Buntline=92 > *Elfrida 1X7&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue> > * lxxiv. 101/1 At one end of the room, elevated upon a low platform, was > the =91music=92=97consisting of the ill-tuned, or rather *untuned* piano > aforementioned, and the =91professor=92, a very seedy-looking gentleman. > 1895 *N.Y. Times rskey=3DFE71X7&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue> > * 21 Jan. 7/5 The perfesser only went out for a drink. He feels better > now, and asks permission to play the pianner for an hour. > 1914 *Chicago Daily > Tribune X7&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue> > * 19 July viii. 8/1, I will now address myself to the professor orchestra > leader. I want, sir, a waltz, well done. > > Years ago, I heard an elderly Jazz musician interviewed on radio -- name > forgotten. He had an appointment as artist-in-residence at the music dept. > of a major university, a gig that he very much enjoyed, especially to see s= > o > many young people interested in the music, and som of them very talented. > He was happy to think that jazz would be played and enjoyed for decades to > come. ONe thing troubled him, though. The students were eager to talk to > him after class, and they greeted him on campus, but they always addressed > him as "Professor" -- now, when he was a young man, a professor was a man > who played piano in a whore house, and so, to him, it was a term of > disrepute. > > GAT > > --=20 > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ= > . > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 7 23:34:15 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:34:15 -0400 Subject: "hourly", noun, "public conveyance that runs every hour", antedated nearly 50 years In-Reply-To: <201108071537.p77Ap99K009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to hopstop.com, it actually takes six minutes to get from Rector St to Houston St. (the southern border of the Ninth Ward, which roughly corresponds to the West Village) . DanG On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:36 AM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: "hourly", noun, "public conveyance that runs every hour", > antedated nearly 50 years > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here is a vision of the future of New York City. > It also offers a considerable antedating of one sense of "hourly" as a noun= > . > It fails by one year to antedate one sense of "accommodation" as a noun, > and "railroad" as a verb, but the current version of the "railroad" entry i= > n > OED -- I suppose that a revision is in hand even now -- has a nearly 20 yea= > r > gap between the earliest and the second appearances. > > A rail road could be constructed through Broadway, so as not to prevent > waggons, carts, and carriages from crossing at any particular point. *** = > If > it were advisable to rail road busy streets and thorough fares, it would pu= > t > out of use entirely the "accommodations" and "hourly," now employed. A > person could pass from Wall street to the Ninth Ward in five minutes -- the > extremities of the city would be brought as near as the different ends of a > single ward -- and a large extensive city would, in regards to > transportation, be as accessible from one point to another as the densest > village. *** > > Morning Courier & New-York Enquirer, December 3, 1830, p. 2, > col. 3 > > > > accommodation (noun) 6 b. ellipt. for accommodation stage > n. lt=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue#eid115646587>, > accommodation train n. at > Compounds hJ&result=3D1&isAdvanced=3Dtrue#eid115646589>. > U.S. > > 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania II. 9, I=E2=80=A5intended to take the Acco= > mmodation > in the morning. > > 1877 =E2=80=98E. W. Martin=E2=80=99 Hist. Great Riots 117 The Sharpsvi= > lle > =E2=80=98accommodation=E2=80=99=E2=80=A5had been lying for two hours withou= > t an engine. > > 1891 C. Roberts Adrift in Amer. ii. 33 We went on what is called an > =E2=80=98accommodation=E2=80=99, that is, a freight train with a passenger = > car at the end of > it. > > > > hourly (adj) 2 b. as n. (U.S.) A public conveyance that run= > s > every hour. > > 1877 J. R. Bartlett Dict. Americanisms (ed. 4) , Hourly, formerly used > in and about Boston for an omnibus. > > 1881 Harper's Mag. Feb. 388 The terrors of the =E2=80=98hourly=E2=80= > =99 or omnibus. > > railroad, verb, 1829, 1848 > > > > railroad (verb) 1. trans. To construct railroads in (a country, etc.). Also > fig. Now rare. > > 1829 A. Royall Pennsylvania I. 123 They are canaling and rail-roading > the whole country. > > 1848 E. Cook Poems (ed. 3) II. Pref. p. ix, The public mind seems > nearly as much railroaded as the country. > > &c. > > --=20 > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ= > . > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 00:11:22 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 20:11:22 -0400 Subject: Opinion piece in NYT: When Data Disappears Message-ID: On August 6th the New York Times published an op-ed on the very important topic of digital preservation. Here is a link for individuals who are able to access the NYT. Future research on the evolution of language will depend on the proper preservation of text and other data that is being created and disseminated now in digital form. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/opinion/sunday/when-data-disappears.html Is there a position paper from the American Dialect Society on this topic? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 01:08:06 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:08:06 -0400 Subject: steep learning curve Message-ID: In one of Bones episodes (sorry, not sure which one, but not recent), one character says to another, "But you got a steep learning curve," implying that the other character learns quickly. IME the only use of "steep learning curve" in education circles is nearly the opposite--it's not a "who", but a "what"--something that is very difficult to learn. In fact, I do not recall "learning curve" applying to an individual in any education research literature that I can recall--it's concepts that have learning curves, not people. If I'm biased on this account, I certainly would like to know that. (I just checked with another education researcher and got a confirmation.) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 01:19:28 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:19:28 -0400 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) In-Reply-To: <201108072213.p77As8rG025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The version with Churchill--along with Samuel Johnson and other attributions--that I heard was much simpler. X [woman] expresses her outrage that Y [man] is drunk. Y responds, "That is undeniably true, mam. But, in the morning, I shall be sober and you will still be ugly." Another somewhat related anecdote also involves Samuel Johnson--or some other large, profusely sweating man. The story claims, Johnson was walking in a garden (presumably some sort of public garden) and, being tired, sat down on a bench. An old woman, already sitting on the bench, exclaimed, "Fee! Sir, you SMELL!" This was met with a reply, "No, ma'am! *You* smell, *I* stink!". VS-) On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is > attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is > the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film > "It?s a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and > not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of > Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): > > Yeah, and you?re crazy. I?ll be sober tomorrow, but you?ll be crazy > the rest of your life. > > Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be > crazy for the rest of your life. > > Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The > Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words > are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who > described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: > > [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what?s more you are > disgustingly drunk."] > Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what?s more, you are disgustingly > ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly > ugly. > > These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest > instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. > > Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, > Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers > Gale) > > A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on > foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace > yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said > the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, > "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are > drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have > the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will > remain the fool you are to-day." > > The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called > "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the > reference data that I have: > Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. > > Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I > found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date > is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the > periodical: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& > > This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the > anecdote that appeared here: > > Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of > Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen & Co., London. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& > > > For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class > of anecdotes. > > Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade > Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood & Co., New York. > > It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a > Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear > door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the > gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied > by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, > offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk > to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who > had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll > be a hog to-morrow!" > > http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& > > > Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. > > Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, > Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. > > Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally > ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the > other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." > > He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which > the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober > to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his > life." > > http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippet& > > > In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert > Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the > 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the > earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: > > Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, > [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. > (Google Books full view) > > "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt > Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks > Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone > platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us ? > > "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down > to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I > am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about > that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." > -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- > "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall > be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and > you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' > > There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but > I have not verified each one of these citations yet. > > If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would > be very appreciative. > > Garson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 01:57:27 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:57:27 -0400 Subject: steep learning curve In-Reply-To: <201108080108.p77AmuGZ009547@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor Steinbok wrote: > In one of Bones episodes (sorry, not sure which one, but not recent), one > character says to another, "But you got a steep learning curve," implying > that the other character learns quickly. IME the only use of "steep learning > curve" in education circles is nearly the opposite--it's not a "who", but a > "what"--something that is very difficult to learn. In fact, I do not recall > "learning curve" applying to an individual in any education research > literature that I can recall--it's concepts that have learning curves, not > people. If I'm biased on this account, I certainly would like to know that. > (I just checked with another education researcher and got a confirmation.) Here is an example of "learning curve" applied to an individual instead of a subject by researchers in learning. (I am not completely sure this cite is dated 1979 because the GB preview blocks the copyright date page. WorldCat gives a 1979 date and it doesn't look like a revision.) Theory and practice of early reading: Volume 3 Lauren B. Resnick, Phyllis A. Weaver, Page 370 Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, Hillsdale, N.J. (Google Books preview) Two children might, in other words, start out in the same position, but one would show a steep learning curve, the other a flat and extended one. Both children could, with enough patient instruction and practice, reach "criterion," but we would not be likely to consider them equally difficult to teach. Similar differences in learning rates ? for children who have virtually ... http://books.google.com/books?id=1pGp5kapFJAC&q=curve#v=snippet& Here is another example example of "learning curve" applied to an individual in an unverified GB snippet. The Sport psychologist: Volume 19 International Society of Sports Psychology - 2005 - Snippet view .. that acknowledging what one does not know is important; but be mindful that a consultant needs a steep learning curve and must be a quick study. Elite performers are not very impressed with those who don't improve or learn quickly. My experiences with the term "steep learning curve" are similar to Victor's. I have typically heard it used in the following way: Subject X has a steep learning curve means subject X is difficult to learn about. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Mon Aug 8 03:22:48 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 23:22:48 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom Message-ID: One of the linguists I follow on Twitter (I forget now which one) wrote about tabulating nominalizations in some text. She was amused because she got to write "NOM NOM NOM" all over the paper. Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Burlingham" To: Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 6:03 PM Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Re: nom, nomming, nom nom > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > >> (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) > > "Nom" came up when I posted a photo to flickr of people at a National > Organization for Marriage rally. Both I and a young employee of mine > thought the acronym "NOM" was giggle-worthy, given the lolcat > referent. (NOM is an anti-same-sex marriage organization. They use the > phrase "traditional marriage" to denote mixed-sex monogamous marriage, > which I find disingenuous.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM Mon Aug 8 03:25:23 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at VIRGINMEDIA.COM (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 04:25:23 +0100 Subject: steep learning curve In-Reply-To: <201108080157.p77As8uO025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: << My experiences with the term "steep learning curve" are similar to Victor's. I have typically heard it used in the following way: Subject X has a steep learning curve means subject X is difficult to learn about. Garson >> I usually associate it with computer programs -- frinstance, any database program involves a steep learning curve compared to any spreadsheet program. (This particular example as the core 95% of even the most sophisticated spreadsheet program is simply Visicalc with bells added.) Robin ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 8 11:36:18 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 07:36:18 -0400 Subject: Antedating of "Argot" Message-ID: argot (OED 1860) 1842 _Mirror of Literature, Amusement, and Instruction_ 14 June 478 (British Periodicals) [quoting a book by J. E. Wakefield] Their [New Zealand whalers'] whole language in fact is an _argot_, or slang, almost unintelligible to a stranger. Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Mon Aug 8 14:58:54 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 09:58:54 -0500 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108072213.p77Ap9Q6009305@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE In the 1970s, when (to my teenage mind) National Lampoon was really funny, they had a short piece along the lines of: THE QUOTABLE WINSTON CHURCHILL Bessie Braddock: Mr. Churchill. You, sir, are drunk. Winston Churchill: Fuck off, you cunt. Lady Astor: Mr. Churchill, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea. Winston Churchill: Blow me, bitch. George Bernard Shaw: Here are two tickets for my new play. Bring a friend, if you have one. Winston Churchill: Suck my dick, Bernie. Etc., etc., etc. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 5:13 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, > whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples > by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to- > morrow, > whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) > (Later > examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is > attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is > the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film > "It's a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and > not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of > Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): > > Yeah, and you're crazy. I'll be sober tomorrow, but you'll be crazy > the rest of your life. > > Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be > crazy for the rest of your life. > > Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The > Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words > are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who > described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: > > [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what's more you are > disgustingly drunk."] > Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what's more, you are disgustingly > ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly > ugly. > > These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest > instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. > > Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, > Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers > Gale) > > A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on > foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace > yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said > the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, > "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are > drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have > the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will > remain the fool you are to-day." > > The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called > "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the > reference data that I have: > Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. > > Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I > found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date > is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the > periodical: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& > > This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the > anecdote that appeared here: > > Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of > Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen & Co., London. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe > t& > > > For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class > of anecdotes. > > Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade > Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood & Co., New York. > > It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a > Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear > door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the > gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied > by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, > offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk > to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who > had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll > be a hog to-morrow!" > > http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe > t& > > > Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. > > Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, > Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. > > Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally > ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the > other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." > > He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which > the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober > to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his > life." > > http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe > t& > > > In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert > Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the > 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the > earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: > > Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, > [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. > (Google Books full view) > > "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt > Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks > Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone > platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us - > > "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down > to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I > am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about > that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." > -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- > "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall > be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and > you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' > > There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but > I have not verified each one of these citations yet. > > If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would > be very appreciative. > > Garson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Aug 8 15:27:03 2011 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paul johnson) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 10:27:03 -0500 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul Johnson Back in the sixties when I was tending bar in a local meat market, a pretty young thing made some sort of stupid comment along the lines of. "I think the Cubs will win the pennant by two polos" A drunken customer awoken from his stupor by the inaneness of her comment; looked us, moved his head in and out to get her in focus and said, :You ain't that fucking pretty to be that fucking stupid" Interestingly the girl was more upset with having her looks critiqued than her brains. I bought the drunk another dring On 8/8/2011 9:58 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > In the 1970s, when (to my teenage mind) National Lampoon was really > funny, they had a short piece along the lines of: > > > THE QUOTABLE WINSTON CHURCHILL > > > Bessie Braddock: Mr. Churchill. You, sir, are drunk. > Winston Churchill: Fuck off, you cunt. > > > > Lady Astor: Mr. Churchill, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea. > Winston Churchill: Blow me, bitch. > > > > George Bernard Shaw: Here are two tickets for my new play. Bring a > friend, if you have one. > Winston Churchill: Suck my dick, Bernie. > > > > > Etc., etc., etc. > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf Of Garson O'Toole >> Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2011 5:13 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, >> whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later > examples >> by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > --------------- >> -------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Garson O'Toole >> Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to- >> morrow, >> whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) >> (Later >> examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------- >> >> There are two famous rejoinders to accusations of inebriation. One is >> attributed to W. C. Fields and the other to Winston Churchill. Here is >> the response of W. C. Fields when told "Your drunk" in the 1934 film >> "It's a Gift." Strictly speaking credit goes to the screenwriter and >> not to Fields for this quip. (The Quote Verifier and Yale Book of >> Quotations versions differ slightly so I will list both): >> >> Yeah, and you're crazy. I'll be sober tomorrow, but you'll be crazy >> the rest of your life. >> >> Yeah, and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow, and you'll be >> crazy for the rest of your life. >> >> Here is the Churchill anecdote reported in "Churchill by Himself: The >> Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The words >> are based on the testimony of a bodyguard named Ronald Golding who >> described an incident that supposedly occurred in 1946: >> >> [Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what's more you are >> disgustingly drunk."] >> Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what's more, you are disgustingly >> ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly >> ugly. >> >> These two anecdotes can be grouped together in a class. The earliest >> instance I've located of a member of this class is dated 1882. >> >> Cite: 1882 August 05, The Daily Republican-Sentinel, His Advantage, >> Page 5, Column 2, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. (19th Century U.S. Newspapers >> Gale) >> >> A Conservative member of the House of Commons, who talks much on >> foreign affairs, but not wisely, was passing last week through palace >> yard, when a man ran against him. "Do you know, sir, who I am?" said >> the member, "I am Mr. --, M.P." "What?" irreverently answered the man, >> "are you Mr. --, the greatest fool in the House of Commons?" "You are >> drunk," exclaimed the M.P. "Even if I am," replied the man, "I have >> the advantage over you - I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will >> remain the fool you are to-day." >> >> The question I pose for the list members concerns a periodical called >> "Truth" in which this anecdote reportedly appeared. Here is the >> reference data that I have: >> Truth, vol. xii. p. 112. >> >> Does anyone know if "Truth" has been digitized in some database? I >> found volume 10 in Google Books but I cannot find volume 12. The date >> is around 1882. Here is a link to what I think is volume 10 of the >> periodical: >> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=EcgcAQAAMAAJ& >> >> This reference to "Truth" appears in a footnote to a reprinting of the >> anecdote that appeared here: >> >> Cite: 1883 May, The National Review, On the Literary Advantages of >> Grub Street by Thomas Tantivy, Page 384, W. H. Allen& Co., London. >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=fNLUAAAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe >> t& >> >> >> For interested readers here are some additional examplesin this class >> of anecdotes. >> >> Cite: 1890 March 27, The American Stationer, Roundabouts by The Trade >> Lounger, Page 745, Column 1, Howard Lockwood& Co., New York. >> >> It is said that a lady and a gentleman the other day entered a >> Broadway surface road car at the same moment, the former by the rear >> door, the latter by the front. There was only one seat vacant and the >> gentleman at once took it, but it happened to be next to one occupied >> by a man who evidently "had a load on." This man at once arose and, >> offering his seat to the lady, said: "Madam, take my seat; I am drunk >> to-day, but to-morrow I shall be sober." Then pointing to the one who >> had just sat down, he added: "But that man is a hog to-day and he'll >> be a hog to-morrow!" >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=JztYAAAAYAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe >> t& >> >> >> Here is a version of the tale in 1892 that once again features M.P.s. >> >> Cite: 1892 December 17, Pick-Me-Up, Page 183, Column 1, Volume 9, >> Number 220, Published at the Office of Pick-Me-Up, London. >> >> Two M.P.'s meet in the Lobby, one an ardent --- the other an equally >> ardent ---. One has dined "not wisely, but too well," and salutes the >> other with: "You're a fool, Brown-Jones, a downright fool." >> >> He is met with the reply: "Now, now, Robinson, you're drunk." To which >> the retort is given: "Well, if I am drunk (hic) I shall be sober >> to-morrow morning (hic), but a fool is a fool (hic) through all his >> life." >> >> > http://books.google.com/books?id=bIUXAQAAMAAJ&q=%22be+sober%22#v=snippe >> t& >> >> >> In 1900 a multi-volume diary was published by Augustus John Cuthbert >> Hare and in volume 5 he told a story that fits this pattern. If the >> 1882 date on the diary entry is correct then this is actually the >> earliest instance of the anecdote I have located: >> >> Cite: 1900, The Story of My Life: Volume V by Augustus J. C. Hare, >> [Diary entry dated July 16, 1882], Page 362, George Allen, London. >> (Google Books full view) >> >> "July 16. -- After luncheon, we had a pleasant walk to Knockholt >> Beeches -- Lady Northcote, the two Stanhope brothers, Mr. Banks >> Stanhope, Lady Margaret, and I. Afterwards, sitting on the stone >> platform in front of the house, Sir Stafford Northcote told us - >> >> "'The great A.B. was tremendously jostled the other day in going down >> to the House. A.B. didn't like it. "Do you know who I am?" he said; "I >> am a Member of Parliament and I am Mr. A.B." -- "I don't know about >> that," said one of the roughs, "but I know that you're a damned fool." >> -- "You're drunk," said A.B.; "you don't know what you're saying." -- >> "Well, perhaps I am rather drunk to-night," said the man, "but I shall >> be sober to-morrow morning; but you're a damned fool tonight, and >> you'll be a damned fool to-morrow morning."' >> >> There are more examples in 1904, 1911, 1925, 1932, 1936, and 1938, but >> I have not verified each one of these citations yet. >> >> If someone can help with the reference to the Truth periodical I would >> be very appreciative. >> >> Garson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- To live in the hearts we leave behind is not to die. Thomas Campbell ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 20:14:46 2011 From: bethany.dumas at GMAIL.COM (Bethany Dumas) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 16:14:46 -0400 Subject: Terry Irons Message-ID: I just learned that Terry Irons (Morehead State University) died on August 3. His obituary is at http://themoreheadnews.com/obituaries/x850291112/Dr-Terry-Irons Bethany ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 8 21:17:00 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:17:00 +0000 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 8 21:45:51 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 17:45:51 -0400 Subject: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108082118.p78AnHGB019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A butt e-mail? BTW, does OED have this sense of "butt" to mean "sent from my smartphone while in my pocket"? DanG On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ron Butters > Subject: Re: Request about famous rejoinder: I shall be sober to-morrow, > whereas you will remain the fool you are to-day. (1882) (Later > examples by W. C. Fields and Winston Churchill) (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 02:01:51 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:01:51 -0400 Subject: Journalism Motto: A dog bites a man - that's a story; A man bites a dog - that's a good story (1899) Message-ID: Barry Popik's invaluable website has an entry from 2005 for a famous saying about journalism. He found a great 1902 citation. 28 December 1902, Decatur (IL) Daily Review, pg. 7, col. 4: In the city editor's instructions to the news reporter he said: "If a man bites a dog it's news, if a dog bites a man it isn't." http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/man_bites_dog/ The Yale Book of Quotations has this 1902 citation and also includes a 1917 attribution for Charles A. Dana. The OED has an entry for man-bites-dog that lists a 1918 attribution of a version of the saying to newspaper editor John Bogart. Oxford Dictionary of Quotations provides a 1917 attribution for Charles A. Dana, and states "earlier sources do not attribute to a specific individual." The Oxford Dictionary of Modern Quotations lists a 1918 attribution for John Bogart. Here is a citation in 1899 that uses different phrasing. The "dog bites a man" tale is not dismissed as non-news. Indeed, "a dog bites man" is "a story." But it is clearly inferior to "a man bites a dog" which is labeled a "good story." (Charles Doyle may have already found this when he was searching for the upcoming Yale Book of Modern Proverbs; unless the 1899 date knocks it out of the book.) Cite: 1899, The Stolen Story and Other Newspaper Stories by Jesse Lynch Williams, The Old Reporter, Start Page 215, Quote Page 223, Charles Scribner's Sons, New York. (Google Books full view) "No wonder he can make anybody talk about everything," thought the new reporters, while the old one went on in his rapid style, "You'll soon assimilate the idea. Now, for instance, 'A dog bites a man' - that's a story; 'A man bites a dog' - that's a good story," etc., ... Here is a bonus citation: In 1852 a text called "The Popular Educator" contained a section under the category "Lessons in Latin." Sentences were analyzed into the parts: SUBJECT and PREDICATE. The PREDICATE was further split into COPULA and OBJECT. Two sentences in English were examined in succession: Cite: 1852, The Popular Educator: Volume The First, Page 55, John Cassell, London. (Google Books full view) Revert now to the simple sentence, The dog bit a man and turn the sentence, thus: The man bit a dog http://books.google.com/books?id=JjACAAAAQAAJ&q=%22man+bit%22#v=snippet& Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 08:29:31 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 01:29:31 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090637.p7946KeT017883@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = >> 1992-1999 search is working.=20 >> >> 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = >> (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = >> Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: >> >> ----- >> that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = >> stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = >> policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = >> world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = >> here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = >> 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. >> ----- >> >> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: >> ----- >> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = >> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = >> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." >> ----- > > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck > off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more > than you can say "fuck it off." It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 9 02:50:32 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:50:32 -0400 Subject: "the Rampture" Message-ID: First there was "Carmageddon," and now there's "the Rampture" -- the predicted chaos in Los Angeles ensuing from the closure of Wilshire Boulevard on- and off-ramps to the 405. http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/08/rampture_405_closure_wilshire_ramps.php --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 06:36:20 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 02:36:20 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090522.p7916Pcv019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Benjamin Barrett > Subject: ? ? ? Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = > 1992-1999 search is working.=20 > > 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > > ----- > that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = > world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = > here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = > 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. > ----- > > 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > ----- > We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = > be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > ----- > > 3. On that same day, Charles F Juengling reports "sluff off" meaning "be = > lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard." > > 4. The following day, Lew Sanborne lsanbore reports "we used "sluff" to = > mean "ditched school," and also in "sluff off," meaning to slack off, or = > to not do what one should have been doing." > > 5. The Urban Dictionary = > (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=3Dsluff) has a slew of = > definitions for "sluff," including: "Used most commonly in the Western = > U.S., sluffing (probably derived from the word 'to slough') is = > synonymous with skipping class, cutting class, or ditching class." One = > example given by a different person is "Dude, your such a sluff! " One = > other relevant definition and example is: "When your drug dealer is late = > in delivering the goods / Damn, I was supposed to get hooked up an hour = > ago, why does Joe have to sluff?" > > These meanings of sluff and sluff off are not in the OED, nor is sluffer = > (an alternative to "sluff" as a person). > > 6. With one possible exception, the earliest citation I see on Google = > for "sluffer" (being the easiest to search for, though probably a = > derivative of "sluff") is 1 February 2001 and it has the verb "sluff" as = > well:=20 > > ----- > One who sluffs off because he's in a small church or position will = > likely not have the opportunity to handle a bigger church or more = > responsible position. > > One who is growing is getting better and better at things, able to = > handle a bigger and more responsible load. He's not a sluffer or parker. > > (http://www.stevedavis.org/chapter%2019.html) > ----- > > 7. That possible exception is from 1924 in "The Field Artillery = > Journal," January-February edition, in a poem and is repeated in the = > poem: > > ----- > I'm a slouch and a slop and a sluffer,=20 > And my ears they are covered with hair,=20 > And I frequent inhabit the guardhouse,=20 > I'll be "priv." until "fini la guerre." > > = > (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1924/JAN_FEB_1924/JAN_FEB_1924_FULL_EDITIO= > N.pdf) > ----- > > This seems to match the meaning, but is so far removed in time from all = > the other hits that it seems dubious. Could this have been military = > slang that surfaced in Lance's wife's high school in the 1960s? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more than you can say "fuck it off." He was getting good grades / doing well at work, till he started sluffing off / fucking off. Transitive "sluff" - without "off" - has the same meaning as "discard" in the playing-bridge-or-any-other-variant-of-whist sense. "Playing hooky" is, 99.44% of the time, from pre-school through grad school, "cutting school" / "cutting class." Occasionally, it's "hook": "hook school / hook class" = "cut school" / cut class." AFAIK, the use of "cut school" or "hook school" instead of "play hooky" was/is? peculiar to St. Louis BE, likewise WRT _sluff_ "discard" as a useful strategy in a game of whist. Till I read Benjamin's post, I was unaware of the existence of the spelling, _sluff_. I would have written only _slough_ for any meaning of [sl^f] whatever, had the occasion to do that ever arisen. Youneverknow. BTW, my spell-check doesn't recognize _sluff_, either. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 05:21:57 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:21:57 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off Message-ID: The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the 1992-1999 search is working. 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: ----- that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. ----- 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: ----- We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." ----- 3. On that same day, Charles F Juengling reports "sluff off" meaning "be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard." 4. The following day, Lew Sanborne lsanbore reports "we used "sluff" to mean "ditched school," and also in "sluff off," meaning to slack off, or to not do what one should have been doing." 5. The Urban Dictionary (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sluff) has a slew of definitions for "sluff," including: "Used most commonly in the Western U.S., sluffing (probably derived from the word 'to slough') is synonymous with skipping class, cutting class, or ditching class." One example given by a different person is "Dude, your such a sluff! " One other relevant definition and example is: "When your drug dealer is late in delivering the goods / Damn, I was supposed to get hooked up an hour ago, why does Joe have to sluff?" These meanings of sluff and sluff off are not in the OED, nor is sluffer (an alternative to "sluff" as a person). 6. With one possible exception, the earliest citation I see on Google for "sluffer" (being the easiest to search for, though probably a derivative of "sluff") is 1 February 2001 and it has the verb "sluff" as well: ----- One who sluffs off because he's in a small church or position will likely not have the opportunity to handle a bigger church or more responsible position. One who is growing is getting better and better at things, able to handle a bigger and more responsible load. He's not a sluffer or parker. (http://www.stevedavis.org/chapter%2019.html) ----- 7. That possible exception is from 1924 in "The Field Artillery Journal," January-February edition, in a poem and is repeated in the poem: ----- I'm a slouch and a slop and a sluffer, And my ears they are covered with hair, And I frequent inhabit the guardhouse, I'll be "priv." until "fini la guerre." (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1924/JAN_FEB_1924/JAN_FEB_1924_FULL_EDITION.pdf) ----- This seems to match the meaning, but is so far removed in time from all the other hits that it seems dubious. Could this have been military slang that surfaced in Lance's wife's high school in the 1960s? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 04:46:08 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 00:46:08 -0400 Subject: "Some taxicab run _me_ right over my foot." [NT] Message-ID: meh -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 12:56:16 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 08:56:16 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090829.p7946Khl017883@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can "slough off" anything I want, just like a snake sloughs (off) its skin. It's like shrugging it off. OTOH, it isn't an expression I use more than once every twenty or thirty years. I can't say I'm familiar with "sloughing school," however. If "sluffer" was ever "army slang," few people could have used it. I find no trace of it anywhere else. A "sluffer" would simply be someone who sloughs things off, i.e., ignores what must be tended to. JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett > wrote: > >> The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = > >> 1992-1999 search is working.=20 > >> > >> 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > >> (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > >> Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > >> > >> ----- > >> that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > >> stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > >> policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = > >> world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = > >> here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = > >> 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. > >> ----- > >> > >> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > >> ----- > >> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to > = > >> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > >> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > >> ----- > > > > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck > > off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more > > than you can say "fuck it off." > > It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. > > BB > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 13:51:55 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 09:51:55 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <1FE5E4D5-4FEC-42F9-B524-47D4E115DF17@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 04:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >... [quoting Ben] > >> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > >> ----- > >> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = > >> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > >> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > >> ----- > > [Quoting Wilson] > > FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck > > off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more > > than you can say "fuck it off." > >It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. I could say it, if "sluff" were in my vocabulary with respect to homework (it now is, thanks to Ben, but it wasn't then). And aren't most of the examples of "sluff v." in the OED transitive "sluff off "s? -- 1964 N.Y. Times Mag. 6 Dec. 20 Its water-repellent finish sluffs off snow. 1966 J. Dos Passos Best Times (1968) ii. 56, I had sluffed off Harvard indifference, but Harvard snobbery still hung on. 1972 New York 8 May 43/3 His [sc. a dog's] shedding mechanism, which now goes about building up and sluffing off the coat. [This is the kind of example I would think of first -- and even say if I had a dog ... or a snake.] 1972 Village Voice (N.Y.) 1 June 50/4 When I consulted a urologist he complained that he was sick of other doctors sluffing the problem off on him all the time. 1976 National Skat & Sheepshead Q. Mar. 5 The picker sluffed off the club king. 1980 Amer. Speech 55 210 Black jazzmen returned to the linguistic roots of their art which had been sidetracked and sluffed off in the bebop/bop movement of the 1940s. In ...uhm, whist today, from reading bridge columns I think "sluff" is more common, or only, without "off", as in 1978 Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 East is now squeezed in the red suits?he must either give up a trick to the jack of hearts or sluff two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 15:55:35 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 11:55:35 -0400 Subject: "The Bob Edwards Show" Message-ID: A poster on another listserv mentions this satellite-radio program as the sometime source of "interesting discussions on language." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 16:43:09 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:43:09 -0400 Subject: Semantic drift: pornographic = 'characterized in any way by sexual acts' Message-ID: "In Session" reported two or three days ago that jurors at Warren Jeffs' trial heard evidence in the form of "a pornographic tape." The tape had "no speaking or conversation, just grunts and groans" which the State of Texas maintained were proof of sexual activity. (The tape was made by Jeffs, not purchased as pornography.) Today they reported that Jeffs used to frequent "pornographic clubs" in various cities. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 16:56:59 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 09:56:59 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091256.p79AlV3j006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for snakes, I don't have that connection. I can understand the etymological connection but have trouble seeing "sloughing off its skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get back to work." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 9, 2011, at 5:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I can "slough off" anything I want, just like a snake sloughs (off) its > skin. It's like shrugging it off. > > OTOH, it isn't an expression I use more than once every twenty or thirty > years. > > I can't say I'm familiar with "sloughing school," however. > > If "sluffer" was ever "army slang," few people could have used it. I > find no trace of it anywhere else. A "sluffer" would simply be someone who > sloughs things off, i.e., ignores what must be tended to. > > JL > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett >> wrote: >>>> The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = >>>> 1992-1999 search is working.=20 >>>> >>>> 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = >>>> (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = >>>> Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = >>>> stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = >>>> policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = >>>> world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = >>>> here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = >>>> 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. >>>> ----- >>>> >>>> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: >>>> ----- >>>> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to >> = >>>> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = >>>> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." >>>> ----- >>> >>> FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck >>> off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more >>> than you can say "fuck it off." >> >> It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. >> >> BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 17:04:03 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 10:04:03 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091352.p79AlVIZ006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 04:29 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> On Aug 8, 2011, at 11:36 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> ... [quoting Ben] >>>> 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: >>>> ----- >>>> We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = >>>> be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = >>>> not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." >>>> ----- >>> [Quoting Wilson] >>> FWIW, IME, _sluff off_ covers exactly the same semantic field as _fuck >>> off_. It's always intransitive. You can't say "sluff it off" any more >>> than you can say "fuck it off." >> >> It is the same for me. Keith Russell's example is wrong for me. > > I could say it, if "sluff" were in my vocabulary > with respect to homework (it now is, thanks to > Ben, but it wasn't then). And aren't most of the > examples of "sluff v." in the OED transitive "sluff off "s? -- > > 1964 N.Y. Times Mag. 6 Dec. 20 Its water-repellent finish sluffs off snow. > 1966 J. Dos Passos Best Times (1968) ii. > 56, I had sluffed off Harvard indifference, but > Harvard snobbery still hung on. > 1972 New York 8 May 43/3 His [sc. a dog's] > shedding mechanism, which now goes about building > up and sluffing off the coat. [This is the kind > of example I would think of first -- and even say > if I had a dog ... or a snake.] > 1972 Village Voice (N.Y.) 1 June 50/4 When I > consulted a urologist he complained that he was > sick of other doctors sluffing the problem off on him all the time. > 1976 National Skat & Sheepshead Q. Mar. > 5 The picker sluffed off the club king. > 1980 Amer. Speech 55 210 Black jazzmen > returned to the linguistic roots of their art > which had been sidetracked and sluffed off in the > bebop/bop movement of the 1940s. > > In ...uhm, whist today, from reading bridge > columns I think "sluff" is more common, or only, without "off", as in > > 1978 Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 East > is now squeezed in the red suits?he must either > give up a trick to the jack of hearts or sluff > two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > > Joel I'm familiar with sluffing in hearts, never with "off", but since the other examples I cited are intransitive (along the lines of Wilson above), they do not have the same feel as this. It's not that you're "sluffing off work" but that you are just "sluffing (off)." I think another meaning in the entry is warranted. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 17:36:31 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:36:31 -0400 Subject: *Again* with the wrong word! Message-ID: Did anyone else notice Colbert's use of "hobo-satchel" in place of _bindle_ ? -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 17:47:35 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:47:35 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091352.p79AuU35030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > 1978 ? ? Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 ? East > is now squeezed in the red suits???e must either > give up a trick to the jack of hearts or _sluff_ > two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a BE thing! I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton Curtain. You really *do* never know! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 18:12:42 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 11:12:42 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091748.p79FaCQ7006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 10:47 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> 1978 ? ? Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 ? East >> is now squeezed in the red suits???e must either >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or > > _sluff_ > >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. >> > > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a BE thing! > > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton > Curtain. You really *do* never know! I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players to set themselves up to be able to sluff. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Tue Aug 9 18:37:24 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 19:37:24 +0100 Subject: "The Bob Edwards Show" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A poster on another listserv mentions this satellite-radio program as > the sometime source of "interesting discussions on language." I used to do pieces on language for the Bob Edwards Show. Perhaps the poster meant those. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 18:47:39 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:47:39 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - now "hearts" In-Reply-To: <59519FE3-A9AB-44C7-A100-71FED35E1529@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 02:12 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one >we usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white >and born in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. > >As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and >get rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows >players to set themselves up to be able to sluff. I used to play hearts, but I don't recall hearing "slough/sluff" with it (New York/New Engand). Dangerous cards, such as high hearts, might be "passed" or "passed off" to one's neighbor. And during play, hears were not passively sluffed, but rather forcefully and venomously imposed on the trick-winner. (Nothing to do with snakeskin, however.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 18:52:24 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:52:24 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >snakes, I don't have that connection. I can understand the >etymological connection but have trouble seeing "sloughing off its >skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get >back to work." I didn't mean to slight "sluffing" of homework -- I agree that an additional sense may be warranted. I just wanted to assert that "sluff off" transitive did not seem odd to me. Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Tue Aug 9 18:53:05 2011 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:53:05 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - now "hearts" In-Reply-To: <201108091847.p79IldSj002377@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/9/11 2:47 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 02:12 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one >> we usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white >> and born in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. >> >> As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and >> get rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows >> players to set themselves up to be able to sluff. > > I used to play hearts, but I don't recall hearing "slough/sluff" with > it (New York/New Engand). Dangerous cards, such as high hearts, > might be "passed" or "passed off" to one's neighbor. And during > play, hears were not passively sluffed, but rather forcefully and > venomously imposed on the trick-winner. (Nothing to do with > snakeskin, however.) I learned to play bridge in the late 60s and haven't played much since then. I recall sluffing/sloughing (never knew how to spell it) as discarding unwanted cards when you were unable to follow suit. I have a vague recollection of a strategy being "a ruff and a sluff", with ruff meaning trump. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 18:56:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:56:07 -0400 Subject: Youneverknow. Message-ID: When I was in the Army, in 1961, I had a barracks-mate whose girlfriend was named _Tamara_ [t@'mar^]. He used to annoy the hell out of us with his punning chant of "Tamara tomorrow!" During the MTV teen drama, Awkward, a character announces, "I'm [t@'mar^]! It's spelled ['tAm at r@]!" And then she proceeds to make the same, obvious, asinine pun. I deduce from this that, these days, the general assumption is that, unless otherwise noted, _Tamara_ is to be pronounced ['tAm at r@] and that the formerly-standard pronunciation, [t@'mar^], once the only one known to me - and to all of my barracks-mates and, indeed, AFAIK, to tout le monde - is now considered to be cutely exotic. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 19:00:42 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:00:42 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091657.p79AmDxe004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > have trouble seeing "sloughing off its skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get back to work." I do, too, now that you mention it.. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 19:16:02 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:16:02 -0700 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091852.p79H5cMS004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 11:52 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >> snakes, I don't have that connection. I can understand the >> etymological connection but have trouble seeing "sloughing off its >> skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get >> back to work." > > I didn't mean to slight "sluffing" of homework -- I agree that an > additional sense may be warranted. I just wanted to assert that > "sluff off" transitive did not seem odd to me. > > Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been (aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 19:16:54 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:16:54 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108091901.p79H5cNK004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see a smooth migration from sloughing off your responsibilities thru sloughing off work and sloughing off homework to sluffing off, especially among people who sloughed off their homework enough so they never learned to spell "slough". DanG On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> have trouble seeing "sloughing off its skin" being a basis for something like "quit sluffing (off) and get back to work." > > I do, too, now that you mention it.. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 9 19:08:01 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:08:01 -0400 Subject: "The Bob Edwards Show" In-Reply-To: <201108091837.p79H5cKI004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Michael Quinion wrote: > > > A poster on another listserv mentions this satellite-radio program as > > the sometime source of "interesting discussions on language." > > I used to do pieces on language for the Bob Edwards Show. Perhaps the > poster meant those. FWIW, he had John McWhorter on his show today talking about his new book: --- http://www.bobedwardsradio.com/bes/ In his fourteenth book, John McWhorter asks readers to look at language the way a linguist does, to examine and appreciate the oral ?tongue? as much as written language. McWhorter is a linguist and says that there is no such thing as ?improper? grammar. He explains that and more, as discussed in What Language Is (And What It Isn?t and What It Could Be). --- No audio available online, unfortunately. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From mgvoneil at STANFORD.EDU Tue Aug 9 19:08:47 2011 From: mgvoneil at STANFORD.EDU (Megan O'Neil) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:08:47 -0700 Subject: "As with" Message-ID: I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might have. The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce Cunningham." This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the comparison. My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on the subject? Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Aug 9 19:30:21 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:30:21 -0500 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108091812.p79H5cHS004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has sluff (v) in a card-playing sense back to 1959. Wilson, I'd have thought you would have read this: Robert A. Heinlein, _Farnham's Freehold_ p. 5 "She admired the way he squeezed out the last trick, of a contract in which she had forced them too high, by having the boldness to sluff an ace." This from the Baen Books 2001 edition, but I'm sure that the quote can be found in the original 1964 edition. > > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson > wrote: > >> 1978 ????? ????? Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 ????? East > >> is now squeezed in the red suits??????????????? e must either > >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or > > > > _sluff_ > > > >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > >> > > > > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a > BE thing! > > > > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton > > Curtain. You really *do* never know! > > I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we > usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born > in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. > > As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get > rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players > to set themselves up to be able to sluff. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 9 20:10:55 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:10:55 -0400 Subject: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff ...] In-Reply-To: <782BAF67-B676-4BA2-A725-619A01B66394@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 03:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) > >Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been >(aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). Ben had written: >> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >> snakes, I don't have that connection. "St. Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 9 20:19:00 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:19:00 -0700 Subject: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff ...] In-Reply-To: <201108092011.p79H5ckY004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/9/2011 03:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >>> Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) >> >> Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been >> (aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). > > Ben had written: >>> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for >>> snakes, I don't have that connection. > > "St. Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland". > A wee bit obscure, but a good laugh, thank you :) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 20:29:00 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:29:00 -0400 Subject: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff ...] In-Reply-To: <201108092019.p79H5clO004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "St. Patrick was a gentleman, he was a saint so frisky: He drove the snakes from Ireland, and put them in the whisky." --Old Song On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Apparently a poor attempt at :-) [Was: Follow-up on sluff > ...] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 9, 2011, at 1:10 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/9/2011 03:16 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >>> Ben, were you raised in Ireland? :-) > >> > >> Since I have no idea why you would ask that, I must not have been > >> (aside from that fact that I know that I wasn't). > > > > Ben had written: > >>> Not being familiar with the meaning of "slough off its skin" for > >>> snakes, I don't have that connection. > > > > "St. Patrick banishes all snakes from Ireland". > > > > A wee bit obscure, but a good laugh, thank you :) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Tue Aug 9 20:44:34 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:44:34 -0500 Subject: "As with" Message-ID: Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." G. Cohen ________________________________ Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might have. The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce Cunningham." This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the comparison. My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on the subject? Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 20:52:28 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:52:28 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092048.p79H5co6004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: Re: "As with" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." > =20 > G. Cohen > ________________________________ > > Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: > > I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just > started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a > sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might > have. > > The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples > proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot > of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. > The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: > > "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce > Cunningham." > > This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As > with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of > the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also > (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, > ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between > the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies > the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the > comparison. > > My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences > before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on > the subject? > Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 22:22:52 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 18:22:52 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092052.p79AuUn7030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "As with" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" >> Subject: Re: "As with" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." >> =20 >> G. Cohen >> ________________________________ >> >> Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: >> >> I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just >> started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a >> sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might >> have. >> >> The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples >> proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot >> of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. >> The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: >> >> "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce >> Cunningham." >> >> This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As >> with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of >> the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also >> (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, >> ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between >> the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies >> the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the >> comparison. >> >> My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences >> before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on >> the subject? >> Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 9 22:30:21 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 18:30:21 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092223.p79Ljerj030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, but by blithely accepting it, they helped drive in the last coffin nail. JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 6:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "As with" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of > changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 9, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "As with" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? > > > > JL > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard >wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > >> Subject: Re: "As with" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Fwiw, this seems to be a shortening of "As is the case with,..." > >> =20 > >> G. Cohen > >> ________________________________ > >> > >> Original message from: Megan O'Neil, Tue 8/9/2011 2:08 PM: > >> > >> I'm working this summer with Arnold Zwicky on a project. We just > >> started looking at the use of sentence-initial "As with..." in a > >> sentence, and we're looking for any feedback or thoughts others might > >> have. > >> > >> The use of "As with" is actually quite common. Searching for examples > >> proved to be quite easy and straightforward. It also turned up a lot > >> of headlines that use the construction, which I found interesting. > >> The following is a headline from the Los Angeles Times: > >> > >> "As with many in dance, Lucinda Childs finds inspiration from Merce > >> Cunningham." > >> > >> This particular sentence is a perfect example of how to employ "As > >> with" in a way that doesn't invite criticism or confusion. Many of > >> the examples I found were along these same lines, but there were also > >> (of course) those that left the reader quite baffled. Ultimately, > >> ["As with X"] triggers a comparison that is going to happen between > >> the main clause and the "as with" phrase. The main clause supplies > >> the thing that X is being compared to and also the basis for the > >> comparison. > >> > >> My question is this: Has anyone looked at these types of sentences > >> before? If so, what are your thoughts? Is there any literature on > >> the subject? > >> Any feedback is welcome. Thanks! > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Aug 9 23:38:24 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:38:24 -0700 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092223.p79JXAO5006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of > changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? i understood Jon Lighter's > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? to be comparing (1) As with many ..., Lucinda Childs ... and (2) Like many ..., Lucinda Childs ... but no one objects to "like" + NP, so unless you're completely spooked by "like", there's no reason to avoid (2). but maybe Jon was thinking of (3) Like with many ..., Lucinda Childs which has "like" + PP, which not everyone is comfortable with. the famous Winston example originally had "like" + Clause, which is widely proscribed (see the discussion in MWDEU) -- indeed, that was the point of the ad ("What do you want, good grammar or good taste?"). but, in any case,"like" + Clause is irrelevant to the current discussion. "as with" makes a comparison, but it does more than that; (1) and (2) aren't discourse-equivalent. as Jerry Cohen pointed out, "as with" in (1) is roughly discourse-equivalent to "as is the case with" (or "as is true for" and probably some other possibilities). it frames the material that follows as well as drawing a comparison. Megan alluded to examples that aren't so straightforwardly acceptable and interpretable as the Lucinda Childs example. there are lots of them. and there are many unproblematic examples that don't easily allow "like" for "as with" -- for instance, from Language Log postings: As with email-borne spam, much of the text of splogs is randomly generated, or at least generated according to a set of esoteric rules known only to the splogger. [quoted] If, as with so many of the trends of American Hispanics, Spanglish were to spread to Latin America, it would constitute the ultimate imperialistic takeover, the final imposition of a way of life that is economically dominant but not culturally superior in any sense. As with Fitzmas, it looks like there were multiple discoverers of this felicitous blend. [quoted] There are, as with other inversions, many reasons for turning to the passive ... sentence-initial "like" + NP is a SPAR (a Subjectless Predicational Adjunct Requiring a referent for the missing subject), but the conditions on "as with" + NP are looser than this. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 00:10:53 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:10:53 +0000 Subject: Youneverknow. In-Reply-To: <201108091856.p79H5cMs004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Tamara tomorrow!" A son will come up? Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Youneverknow. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When I was in the Army, in 1961, I had a barracks-mate whose > girlfriend was named _Tamara_ [t@'mar^]. He used to annoy the hell out > of us with his punning chant of > > "Tamara tomorrow!" > > During the MTV teen drama, Awkward, a character announces, > > "I'm [t@'mar^]! It's spelled ['tAm at r@]!" > > And then she proceeds to make the same, obvious, asinine pun. > > I deduce from this that, these days, the general assumption is that, > unless otherwise noted, _Tamara_ is to be pronounced ['tAm at r@] and > that the formerly-standard pronunciation, [t@'mar^], once the only one > known to me - and to all of my barracks-mates and, indeed, AFAIK, to > tout le monde - is now considered to be cutely exotic. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 00:21:05 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:21:05 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108092338.p79JXAS3006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >...so unless you're completely spooked by "like", there's no reason to avoid (2). I can't prove it, but such people may exist. I can remember several freshman themes (admittedly out of thousands) in which perfectly correct prepositional _like_ was replaced with awkward-sounding and uncalled-for _as_. That was twenty and more years ago, which only means that the practice, limited though it may be, has had plenty of time to spread. My guess is that it is more likely to be spreading than retreating. I'm not saying that people who write "as with" are necessarily "spooked by 'like.'" Merely that the phrase may gained ground through the agency of people who are. Assuming they exist. JL On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: "As with" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 9, 2011, at 3:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > Didn't Winston cigarettes kill "like" when it make a big deal of > > changing from "like a cigarette should" to "as a cigarette should"? > > i understood Jon Lighter's > > > What happened to "like"? That would work fine in the Lucinda Childs ex. > > > > Is "as with" partly the result of "like" avoidance? > > to be comparing > (1) As with many ..., Lucinda Childs ... > and > (2) Like many ..., Lucinda Childs ... > > but no one objects to "like" + NP, so unless you're completely spooked by > "like", there's no reason to avoid (2). > > but maybe Jon was thinking of > (3) Like with many ..., Lucinda Childs > which has "like" + PP, which not everyone is comfortable with. > > the famous Winston example originally had "like" + Clause, which is widely > proscribed (see the discussion in MWDEU) -- indeed, that was the point of > the ad ("What do you want, good grammar or good taste?"). but, in any > case,"like" + Clause is irrelevant to the current discussion. > > "as with" makes a comparison, but it does more than that; (1) and (2) > aren't discourse-equivalent. as Jerry Cohen pointed out, "as with" in (1) > is roughly discourse-equivalent to "as is the case with" (or "as is true > for" and probably some other possibilities). it frames the material that > follows as well as drawing a comparison. > > Megan alluded to examples that aren't so straightforwardly acceptable and > interpretable as the Lucinda Childs example. there are lots of them. and > there are many unproblematic examples that don't easily allow "like" for "as > with" -- for instance, from Language Log postings: > > As with email-borne spam, much of the text of splogs is randomly > generated, or at least generated according to a set of esoteric rules known > only to the splogger. > > [quoted] If, as with so many of the trends of American Hispanics, > Spanglish were to spread to Latin America, it would constitute the ultimate > imperialistic takeover, the final imposition of a way of life that is > economically dominant but not culturally superior in any sense. > > As with Fitzmas, it looks like there were multiple discoverers of this > felicitous blend. > > [quoted] There are, as with other inversions, many reasons for turning to > the passive ... > > sentence-initial "like" + NP is a SPAR (a Subjectless Predicational Adjunct > Requiring a referent for the missing subject), but the conditions on "as > with" + NP are looser than this. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 10 00:38:28 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 17:38:28 -0700 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <201108100021.p79NWK2E004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Jon Lighter wrote: >> ...so unless you're completely spooked by "like", there's no reason to > avoid (2). > > I can't prove it, but such people may exist. I can remember several freshman > themes (admittedly out of thousands) in which perfectly correct > prepositional _like_ was replaced with awkward-sounding and uncalled-for > _as_. > > That was twenty and more years ago, which only means that the practice, > limited though it may be, has had plenty of time to spread. My guess is > that it is more likely to be spreading than retreating. > > I'm not saying that people who write "as with" are necessarily "spooked by > 'like.'" Merely that the phrase may gained ground through the agency of > people who are. > > Assuming they exist. i'm pretty sure they do exist. but many of the examples with "as with" can't be seen as avoidances of "like", and they come from people who are very unlikely to have been spooked by "like" or influenced by those who are; several LLoggers (Ben Zimmer and me, for example) seem to be fond of framing "as with". arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Wed Aug 10 01:07:43 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:07:43 -0500 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) Message-ID: It's on p.8 in my paperback "fifth printing" (no date specified) which claims Sept., 65, as the first printing. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:30 PM Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE OED has sluff (v) in a card-playing sense back to 1959. Wilson, I'd have thought you would have read this: Robert A. Heinlein, _Farnham's Freehold_ p. 5 "She admired the way he squeezed out the last trick, of a contract in which she had forced them too high, by having the boldness to sluff an ace." This from the Baen Books 2001 edition, but I'm sure that the quote can be found in the original 1964 edition. > > > > > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson > wrote: > >> 1978 ?? ?? Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 ?? East > >> is now squeezed in the red suits?????? e must either > >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or > > > > _sluff_ > > > >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. > >> > > > > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a > BE thing! > > > > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton > > Curtain. You really *do* never know! > > I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we > usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born > in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. > > As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get > rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players > to set themselves up to be able to sluff. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 10 12:30:04 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 08:30:04 -0400 Subject: "As with" In-Reply-To: <330B9EE4-B957-4A78-A581-FA04BEAA1973@stanford.edu> Message-ID: At 8/9/2011 07:38 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > As with Fitzmas, it looks like there were multiple discoverers of > this felicitous blend. I don't know how to model this, but -- If I had written "Like Fitzmas, there were multiple discoverers ...", I might wonder whether it was the discoverers or the discovery that was like Fitzmas -- and change to "as with" to preempt any momentary hiccups in my readers. Of course, in this example "Like Fitzmas, it looks like ..." is at best awkward, as would be "As with Fitzmas, it looks as if ...". Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 14:51:55 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:51:55 -0400 Subject: Obamageddon Message-ID: A Republican on CNN: "This is Obamageddon! It's Barackalypse now!" That means America's done for. Start talking Chinese. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 10 14:56:38 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:56:38 -0500 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: For "hot dog" afficionados: Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the New York hot dog: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-at-a-time.html The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters." G. Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU Wed Aug 10 15:33:15 2011 From: michael.newman at QC.CUNY.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 17:33:15 +0200 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the link is broken, even copying the whole thing including the next line. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Aug 10, 2011, at 4:56 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 10 15:45:32 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:45:32 -0400 Subject: support from, or for? Message-ID: In a NYTimes article yesterday on Texas Gov. Rick Perry's signal of intent to enter the presidential race, I read: "His name will not be on the ballot [of the Iowa Straw Poll Saturday], but Americans for Perry ... has been urging supporters to cast a write-in ballot for him. That effort could erode support from his rivals." Even in the absence of any activity by Americans for Perry, I would not expect that Perry would have had any support from his rivals (and in passing, therefore nothing that could erode). Shouldn't one use "erode support *for* his rivals" here? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Wed Aug 10 15:46:05 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:46:05 -0500 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: The "equal sign" at the end of the line was added by my computer software. The last part of the link should read one-cart-at-a-time.html And there should be nothing after html If there's still a problem, please let me know. I just tried it, and it worked okay. G. Cohen ________________________________ Michael Newman wrote, Wed 8/10/2011 10:33 AM: the link is broken, even copying the whole thing including the next line. Michael Newman Associate Professor of Linguistics Queens College/CUNY michael.newman at qc.cuny.edu On Aug 10, 2011, at 4:56 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Aug 10 15:47:00 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:47:00 -0500 Subject: "Eleven Mediocre Southern Accents From Movies and How They Should Really Sound" (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108082014.p78AnHBj019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/08/these_suck_yall_11_terrible _soua.html# Read the comments as well. Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 16:21:12 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:21:12 -0400 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108101458.p7AAxcbi000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't stand it. JL On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" > Subject: hot dog article in NY Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 > For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 > Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = > New York hot dog: > =20 > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html > =20 > The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = > picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = > It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = > say "Hot Dogs"; > it says "Hot Frankfurters." > =20 > The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = > bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = > entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = > have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 > =20 > G. Cohen > =20 > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM Wed Aug 10 16:29:13 2011 From: Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM (Katy Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:29:13 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101546.p7AAxcfS000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: ?Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this country are_?off on the wrong track?_, which is the highest figure measured since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.? Saying we?re ?off? on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 16:32:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:32:30 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101629.p7AAnEYB027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps we are on the right track, but off on the wrong foot?... DanG On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Katy Steinmetz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Katy Steinmetz > Subject: Off on the wrong track > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: > > =B3Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this > country are_=8Coff on the wrong track=B9_, which is the highest figure measured > since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.=B2 > > Saying we=B9re =B3off=B2 on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to > suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we > collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. > > http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810= >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM Wed Aug 10 16:36:26 2011 From: Katy_Steinmetz at TIMEMAGAZINE.COM (Katy Steinmetz) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:36:26 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101633.p7AAxcjM000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Or perhaps our deviance is so notable that we are off, as well as on the wrong track. On 8/10/11 12:32 PM, "Dan Goncharoff" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: Off on the wrong track > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> - > > Perhaps we are on the right track, but off on the wrong foot?... > > DanG > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Katy Steinmetz > wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Katy Steinmetz >> > Subject: Off on the wrong track >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------->> -- >> > >> > I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: >> > >> > =B3Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this >> > country are_=8Coff on the wrong track=B9_, which is the highest figure >> measured >> > since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.=B2 >> > >> > Saying we=B9re =B3off=B2 on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to >> > suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we >> > collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. >> > >> > >> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810= >>> >> >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 16:40:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:40:30 -0400 Subject: Off on the wrong track In-Reply-To: <201108101636.p7AG1iJf020461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If we are off the wrong track, we are either on the right track or derailed... DanG On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:36 PM, Katy Steinmetz wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Katy Steinmetz > Subject: Re: Off on the wrong track > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Or perhaps our deviance is so notable that we are off, as well as on the > wrong track. > > > On 8/10/11 12:32 PM, "Dan Goncharoff" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: Off on the wrong track >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > - >> >> Perhaps we are on the right track, but off on the wrong foot?... >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Katy Steinmetz >> wrote: >>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> > Sender: American Dialect Society >>> > Poster: Katy Steinmetz >>> > Subject: Off on the wrong track >>> > >>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------->> > -- >>> > >>> > I just got some poll results from Ipsos that had this finding highlighted: >>> > >>> > =B3Almost three-quarters (73%) of the public now think that things in this >>> > country are_=8Coff on the wrong track=B9_, which is the highest figure >>> measured >>> > since we began tracking this question for Reuters in early 2009.=B2 >>> > >>> > Saying we=B9re =B3off=B2 on the wrong track rather than just on it seems to >>> > suggest our route was a lot more haphazard than purposeful. Like we >>> > collectively got distracted by our phones or some such. >>> > >>> > >>> http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/10/us-usa-poll-idUSTRE7794EX20110810= >>>> >> >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From db.list at PMPKN.NET Wed Aug 10 17:13:00 2011 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:13:00 -0800 Subject: Borrowed-a names (was: Re: Youneverknow.) In-Reply-To: <201108100401.p79Lje0h030441@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: From: Wilson Gray > When I was in the Army, in 1961, I had a barracks-mate whose > girlfriend was named _Tamara_ [t@'mar^]. He used to annoy the hell out > of us with his punning chant of > "Tamara tomorrow!" > During the MTV teen drama, Awkward, a character announces, > "I'm [t@'mar^]! It's spelled ['tAm at r@]!" > And then she proceeds to make the same, obvious, asinine pun. > I deduce from this that, these days, the general assumption is that, > unless otherwise noted, _Tamara_ is to be pronounced ['tAm at r@] and > that the formerly-standard pronunciation, [t@'mar^], once the only one > known to me - and to all of my barracks-mates and, indeed, AFAIK, to > tout le monde - is now considered to be cutely exotic. There are, i think, two things going on here: 1. The pronunciation of names is relatively unpredictable from spelling (e.g., 'Thomas' starts with [t] rather than theta), and this includes what syllable is stressed. 2. Borrowed-a is regionally variable (e.g., how do *you* pronounce 'plaza'?), particularly when combined with unpredictable stress location. My personal-history case: Jeanne and i are both from areas where borrowed-a is pretty much consistently [a], never [?]. (That last character's the a-e ligature, if it didn't come across right.) Our oldest, Sadra [sadr@] was born shortly before we moved to Utah, and we never imagined anyone would have any trouble at all with her name. The Wasatch Front of Utah, though, shows variation in borrowed-a treatment (e.g., consistent Nev[?]da, variation between Color[?]do and Color[a]do, p[a]sta, pl[?]za, and so on), and people there were very confused about how to pronounce her name, [sadr@] or [s?dr@] (or [sedr@], which is a rather different issue). For Jeanne and me, any pronunciation of Tamara as [t?m at r@] is strange, since you simply *can't* have a [?] there. (You might could have [tam at r@] if you're gonna have first-syllable stress, i suppose.) I can imagine that for people from certain other areas (i'd like to hear from any Canadians on the list for their intuitions, for example), [t at mar@] could be equally strange. -- David Bowie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Wed Aug 10 17:15:01 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:15:01 -0300 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108101458.p7AAnEM1027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you just go to the NYT and search "hot dog" the article will pop up. That's how I found it. DAD -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:57 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: hot dog article in NY Times ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- =20 For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = New York hot dog: =20 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= t-a-time.html =20 The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." =20 The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 =20 G. Cohen =20 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 10 17:58:15 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:58:15 -0400 Subject: Borrowed-a names In-Reply-To: <201108101713.p7AAnEbX027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/10/2011 1:13 PM, David Bowie wrote: > > There are, i think, two things going on here: > > 1. The pronunciation of names is relatively unpredictable from spelling > (e.g., 'Thomas' starts with [t] rather than theta), and this includes > what syllable is stressed. > > 2. Borrowed-a is regionally variable (e.g., how do *you* pronounce > 'plaza'?), particularly when combined with unpredictable stress location. > > My personal-history case: Jeanne and i are both from areas where > borrowed-a is pretty much consistently [a], never [?]. (That last > character's the a-e ligature, if it didn't come across right.) Our > oldest, Sadra [sadr@] was born shortly before we moved to Utah, and we > never imagined anyone would have any trouble at all with her name. The > Wasatch Front of Utah, though, shows variation in borrowed-a treatment > (e.g., consistent Nev[?]da, variation between Color[?]do and Color[a]do, > p[a]sta, pl[?]za, and so on), and people there were very confused about > how to pronounce her name, [sadr@] or [s?dr@] (or [sedr@], which is a > rather different issue). > > For Jeanne and me, any pronunciation of Tamara as [t?m at r@] is strange, > since you simply *can't* have a [?] there. (You might could have > [tam at r@] if you're gonna have first-syllable stress, i suppose.) I can > imagine that for people from certain other areas (i'd like to hear from > any Canadians on the list for their intuitions, for example), [t at mar@] > could be equally strange. -- But isn't the stressed first-syllable vowel virtually always /&/ (IPA "ae" ligature) in several comparable words ("tamarack", "tamarind", "tamarisk", even "tam-o'-shanter")? I suppose I would use a guess-pronunciation like /ta'mara/ (or more-Englishy /t at mar@/) if I figured the name to be an import of unknown origin, but I would not bet much on my guess. I think most folks would pronounce an unfamiliar name by analogy with other words which they use or see (e.g., in the current case maybe "camera"), without any thought of borrowing or origin. I myself would not know offhand whether, say, "tamarack" or "tamarind" was a loan-word or if so from what language; I think the average person wouldn't know offhand even how to find out and furthermore would never think of trying. I would guess that in my neck of the woods, judging from comparable cases including one in the immediate family, an unfamiliar name written "Sadra" would be pronounced (by strangers) /s&dr@/ (with "ae" sound) about 70-80% of the time. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 18:51:26 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:51:26 -0400 Subject: support from, or for? In-Reply-To: <201108101545.p7AAnERx027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: ? ? ? support from, or for? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In a NYTimes article yesterday on Texas Gov. Rick Perry's signal of > intent to enter the presidential race, I read: > > "His name will not be on the ballot [of the Iowa Straw Poll > Saturday], but Americans for Perry ... has been urging supporters to > cast a write-in ballot for him. ? That effort could erode support from > his rivals." > > Even in the absence of any activity by Americans for Perry, I would > not expect that Perry would have had any support from his rivals (and > in passing, therefore nothing that could erode). ? Shouldn't one use > "erode support *for* his rivals" here? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > I agree, Joel. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 10 19:12:00 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 15:12:00 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108100108.p79JXAXx006025@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The OED does contain an example of sluff used as a verb in the domain of card playing as Bill notes. The citation is grouped with other examples of figurative use. OED sluff, v. U.S. var. slough v.2 3.: 1959 T. Reese & A. Dormer Bridge Player's Dict. 206 Sluff, to discard; to throw a card, other than a trump, of a suit different from the one led. Here is a 1931 citation for "sluffed" in the game of bridge. Cite 1931 February 25, Pittsburgh Press, "Bridge: Retain Control Of Dangerous Suit As Long As Possible, Declarer Pulls Opponent's Trump to Win" by William E McKenney, Page 23, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (Google News Archive) Declarer would then lead a trump which East would win with the ace. but the declarer has already sluffed his losing club and game would be made. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VMoaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=REsEAAAAIBAJ&pg=2588,1522188&dq=sluffed Short URL: http://goo.gl/S5QgM Here is a 1931 example with ruff and sluff as mentioned by Alice Faber. Cite: 1931 January 12, Spokane Daily Chronicle, Two Too Many in Trump Suit by Wm. E. McKenney, Page 5, Spokane, Washington. (Google news Archive) When all players followed to the three club leads by east, east should not continue with the seven of clubs as this would get the declarer a ruff in one hand and a sluff in the other. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=js9XAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zfQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6323,2134126&dq=sluff http://goo.gl/xaJcX Garson On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Dave Hause wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Dave Hause > Subject: ? ? ? Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's on p.8 in my paperback "fifth printing" (no date specified) which > claims Sept., 65, as the first printing. > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net > Waynesville, MO > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 2:30 PM > Subject: Re: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off (UNCLASSIFIED) > > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > OED has sluff (v) in a card-playing sense back to 1959. > > > Wilson, I'd have thought you would have read this: > > Robert A. Heinlein, _Farnham's Freehold_ p. 5 > "She admired the way he squeezed out the last trick, of a contract in which > she had forced them too high, by having the boldness to sluff an ace." > This from the Baen Books 2001 edition, but I'm sure that the quote can be > found in the original 1964 edition. > > > >> >> > >> > On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Joel S. Berson >> wrote: >> >> 1978 ????? ? ????? Detroit Free Press 2 Apr. 19 c/3 ????? ? East >> >> is now squeezed in the red suits????????????? e must either >> >> give up a trick to the jack of hearts or >> > >> > _sluff_ >> > >> >> two diamonds, which sets up declarer's third diamond. >> >> >> > >> > So, _sluff_ in the sense of "discard" in a card game *isn't* only a >> BE thing! >> > >> > I never cease to be amazed by the impenetrability of the Cotton >> > Curtain. You really *do* never know! >> >> I must have learned that from my grandmother, since she was the one we >> usually played hearts and other card games with. She was white and born >> in Seattle in 1912 or 1913. >> >> As a kid, I understood this to mean something like "be sneaky and get >> rid of the card" since the pass at the start of the game allows players >> to set themselves up to be able to sluff. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED > Caveats: NONE > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 10 20:10:08 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 16:10:08 -0400 Subject: "leg before wicket" Message-ID: This expression, being an "L" word (in the "eg before wicket" family, to recollect Sesame Street), falls just before the cycle of regeneration the OED is undergoing. Still, the entry is odd. The first citation (1774) establishes that the ploy was against the rule, but doesn't use the words; the second (1795) isn't []ed, but seems not to use the word, anyway, though it does show that the abbreviation "lbw" was current then. So the earliest appearance of the fully spelled out prhrase comes from 1850. Ant the 4th citation is also the source for the 1795 citation. OED: leg, sense 6, Cricket, *a.* leg before wicket: the act of stopping with the leg, or other part of the person, a straight-pitched ball, which would otherwise have hit the wicket (a fault in play for which the batsman may be given ?out?). Also, simply, leg before. Abbreviated *l.b.w*. [1774 *Laws Cricket* in Lillywhite *Cricket Scores * (1862) I. 17 Or if a striker puts his leg before the wicket with a design to stop the ball, and actually prevent the ball from hitting his wicket by it [he is out].] 1795 in Lillywhite *Cricket Scores * (1862) I. 190 Hon. J. Tufton, lbw, b wells?3. 1850 ?Bat? *Cricketer's Man. * 47 The hitter is given out as??leg before wicket?. 1862 Lillywhite *Cricket Scores * I. 191 In this match [in 1795], ?leg before wicket? is found *scored* for the first time. 1882 *Daily Tel. * 20 May, Blackham was out leg before to Lillywhite. The following was turned up the old-fashioned way, by reading the newspaper. But checking several databases of old newspapers doesn't show anything earlier: A Challenge. THIRTEEN Americans or Europeans, challenge any equal number of native Georgians, to play the game of cricket. *** No legs before wickets. New-York Gazette & General Advertiser, March 18, 1801, p. 3, col. 2, "from a Savannah paper" Oddly, the N-YG&GA prints this as if an advertisement, not as something the editor saw in a Savannah paper and reprinted as likely to be found amusing or interesting by NYC readers. Cricket was a popular game in NYC at this time. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 10 20:40:27 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 16:40:27 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" Message-ID: This doesn't appear in the OED. Exercise with flying Horses, *In the Court of Mr. Ambroise, Fire-worker, No. 297 Mulberry street*, WILL be opened every day, Sundays excepted; those who wish to enjoy this innocent amusement may gratify themselves at the small rate of one quarter of a dollar per quadrille. Private companies, who wish to enjoy this exercise and bespeak the machine for certain hours, will please to give notice thereof at the above place. N. B. From eight to ten o'clock double price on account of the lights. Claypoole's American Daily Advertiser, (Philadelphia), June 11, 1796, p. 2, col. ?. [a house listed for sale; described as "situated in Bowery lane, 2 doors below the flying horses, above Bayard street"] *Daily Advertiser*, April 6, 1799, p. 3, col. ? [David Hervey, Zachariah Sickels and Jacob Hallock indicted for illegible; they kept "a certain unlawful and dangerous engine or machine called flying horse", on May 1, 1801 and after. Henry Willetts of 33 Cheapside street, 7th Ward, complains that they have] a large building in [Cheapside] street [where] they have [illegible] what they call flying horses. [This attracts] bad men and women boys and girls black and white every night in the week Sundays excepted. New York County District Attorney Indictment Papers, 1st folder of June 5, 1801. [text of a law prohibiting "any licensed Inn or Tavern keeper, or Grocer" from keeping "any Flying Horse . . . , or Whirligig, or Roundabout, or other similar machinery or device for public amusement. . . . $50 fine] New-York National Advocate, June 16, 1825, p. 2, col. 5; On August 15, 1825, . . . the Common Council . . . granted a permit to John Sears to "establish a covered circus for a Flying Horse Establishment. . . . a petition by P. Paquet was at the same time withdrawn, indicating that his Flying Horses, perhaps exhibited earlier, may have run into trouble with the police. Frederick Fried, *A Pictorial History of the Carousel*, Vestal, N. Y.: Vestal Press, 1982, p. 51. Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? Calling a session on the contraption a "quadrille" is curious, too. The proprietors of the "Elysian Fields" at Hoboken installed a roller-coaster like contraption in the shape of a rail road, that being the latest technological marvel in the 1830s. There were those who thought that the most amusing aspect of the Hoboken affair was that people would pay money to push themselves and others around the track -- evidently it was a form of healthful exercise, too. "Mr. Van Buskirk, keeper of the Hotel, at Hoboken, has constructed a double circular railway under the shade on his grounds adjoining, for exercise, and the amusement of visiters to that pleasant spot. Two light pleasure cars are provided, running on iron wheels, 3 feet in diameter, with stuffed cushions, and neatly finished, each capable of accommodating two persons. The motion is produced by the riders, who turn a hand-wheel by a windlass, and the motion is rapid and pleasant. The circuit, which is 687 feet, is frequently made in 4 minutes. Caution is necessary in not standing too near." New-York Daily Advertiser, July 29, 1831, p. 2, col. 3 "the larger children who amuse themselves on the circular rail road, by first paying their passage, and then working hard to accomplish it" Evening Star, June 16, 1836, p. 2, col. 3 GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 02:23:36 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:23:36 -0400 Subject: _Symbian_ Message-ID: This word is apparently not in the OED nor in the UD, in the relevant meaning. Cf. http://xhamster.com/search.php?q=symbian&qcat=video The cited URL is that of a for-real porn site featuring the niche paraphilia based on the use of the symbian, a particular kind of sex toy, which is shown as it's commonly used. If you can't get ready for serious pornography, take a pass on this. I leave the task of coming up with a definition of this object to the professionals. I'm not going to try this at home!:-) WRT whether there be any connection with the name of the Symbian OS, deponent hath no opinion. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 02:59:59 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:59:59 -0400 Subject: _Symbian_ In-Reply-To: <201108110224.p7AImgWT027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wilson Gray > Subject: _Symbian_ > This word is apparently not in the OED nor in the UD, in the relevant meaning. The denizens of Wikipedia apparently call the device a Sybian. It was developed in the 1980s, and The Howard Stern Show has been a recent locus of popularization. An online history at the sybian.com website provides a rationale for the name: [begin excerpt] Now we needed a name. For nearly four years we called it Master Better, MB for short, but knew we had to come up with something different. We finally agreed on Sybian. The Syb is derived from Sybaris, an ancient Greek city in southern Italy, famous as a center of luxurious living. A Sybarite is defined as a person who likes luxurious things so we now refer to the owners of Sybian by that name. I would not label these links NSFW but I do not know your work environment: http://www.sybian.com/sybian_history.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybian < Continuing Wilson Gray's comment> > http://xhamster.com/search.php?q=symbian&qcat=video > > The cited URL is that of a for-real porn site featuring the niche > paraphilia based on the use of the symbian, a particular kind of sex > toy, which is shown as it's commonly used. If you can't get ready for > serious pornography, take a pass on this. > > I leave the task of coming up with a definition of this object to the > professionals. I'm not going to try this at home!:-) > > WRT whether there be any connection with the name of the Symbian OS, > deponent hath no opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 11 03:50:05 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:50:05 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or >Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young whipper-snappers. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 03:56:06 2011 From: jocelyn.limpert at GMAIL.COM (Jocelyn Limpert) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:56:06 -0400 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108101715.p7AAxclQ000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: DAD: One would hope that you're not the only one with common sense! The convoluted explanation on how to change the URL was a bit much, to put it mildly. JRL On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 1:15 PM, David A. Daniel wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "David A. Daniel" > Subject: Re: hot dog article in NY Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If you just go to the NYT and search "hot dog" the article will pop up. > That's how I found it. > DAD > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of > Cohen, Gerald Leonard > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 11:57 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: hot dog article in NY Times > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =20 > For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 > Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = > New York hot dog: > =20 > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= > t-a-time.html > =20 > The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = > picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = > It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = > say "Hot Dogs"; > it says "Hot Frankfurters." > =20 > The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = > bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = > entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = > have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 > =20 > G. Cohen > =20 > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 03:59:27 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 23:59:27 -0400 Subject: support from, or for? In-Reply-To: <201108101545.p7AAnERx027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I would also generally agree, but there is a parsing issue here. (1) erode [support] from his rival (2) erode [support for his rival] In (1), support is surely something that is being eroded, but it's incidental--anything could be eroded here and fall in the same construction. What is being eroded here is the rivals' base. And the votes that they lose presumably go to Perry--i.e., he takes the votes away /from/ them. In (2), the preposition goes with "support" rather than with the verb. The implication is that the enthusiasm and the votes that prop up his rivals go down, but there is no /direct/ implication that the votes shift over to Perry--one can erode "support for X" without directly benefiting from this erosion. The first has the sense of take-away, the second of destruction (or, more precisely, reduction). This does not mean that the two constructs can exist side by side, but it should explain how careless editing might have arrived at the statement. Whether the construct "erode X from Y" exists at all is an entirely different question. VS-) On 8/10/2011 11:45 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > In a NYTimes article yesterday on Texas Gov. Rick Perry's signal of > intent to enter the presidential race, I read: > > "His name will not be on the ballot [of the Iowa Straw Poll > Saturday], but Americans for Perry ... has been urging supporters to > cast a write-in ballot for him. That effort could erode support from > his rivals." > > Even in the absence of any activity by Americans for Perry, I would > not expect that Perry would have had any support from his rivals (and > in passing, therefore nothing that could erode). Shouldn't one use > "erode support *for* his rivals" here? > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 04:08:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 00:08:34 -0400 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108110356.p7AKDv2V020461@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a short link and a long link to the New York Times story "Redefining the Hot Dog, a Cart at a Time" by Jeff Gordinier dated August 9: http://goo.gl/ZSxQk http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-at-a-time.html On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Jocelyn Limpert wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jocelyn Limpert > Subject: Re: hot dog article in NY Times > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DAD: One would hope that you're not the only one with common sense! The > convoluted explanation on how to change the URL was a bit much, to put it > mildly. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 05:32:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:32:48 -0400 Subject: pleeb Message-ID: ... not in OED--because "plebe" is. But the UD meaning of either is missing--the generalized meaning of inferior rank, raw recruit, rookie, minion--a blend of the "plebeian" origin and the USNA use of "plebe" for first-year cadet, freshmen. Most online dictionaries expand that use to "military academy", in general, not just Naval. Several mention "obsolete" reference to "common people" (Wiktionary does not mention "obsolete"). Straight "fraternity-plebe" gets 12 ghits (a couple repetitive). "Fraternity-pleeb" and "frat-pleeb" get nothing, but two "frat-pleb" that means the same thing. Five more ghits for "frat-plebe". It seems there are a few generic uses that are restricted neither to Rome nor to military academies. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 05:37:19 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:37:19 -0400 Subject: pleeb In-Reply-To: <4E436980.2090206@gmail.com> Message-ID: More ghits under "drunken-plebe" (only a couple under "drunk-plebe") and when using plural (plebes). VS-) On 8/11/2011 1:32 AM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ... not in OED--because "plebe" is. But the UD meaning of either is > missing--the generalized meaning of inferior rank, raw recruit, > rookie, minion--a blend of the "plebeian" origin and the USNA use of > "plebe" for first-year cadet, freshmen. Most online dictionaries > expand that use to "military academy", in general, not just Naval. > Several mention "obsolete" reference to "common people" (Wiktionary > does not mention "obsolete"). > > Straight "fraternity-plebe" gets 12 ghits (a couple repetitive). > "Fraternity-pleeb" and "frat-pleeb" get nothing, but two "frat-pleb" > that means the same thing. Five more ghits for "frat-plebe". > > It seems there are a few generic uses that are restricted neither to > Rome nor to military academies. > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ryrivard at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 05:36:34 2011 From: ryrivard at GMAIL.COM (Ry Rivard) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 01:36:34 -0400 Subject: "chairman" gets neutered In-Reply-To: <201108072145.p77As8qu025658@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Newspaper writer here. Preferred style for our paper (relatively small, American) is "chair(wo)man". But I do note the occasional indiscriminate use by those I cover of "chairman" toward females (but never "chairwoman" of males). A curmudgeon about the building used to say of "chair": "People are not chairs." -- Ry Rivard twitter.com/ryrivard | 304.389.9982 On Aug 7, 2011, at 5:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "chairman" gets neutered > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> In my day, or so it seems to me, chairpersons were at least as likely to be >> "chairmen" as "chairs," regardless of sex. >> >> Or do I mean "gender"? >> > > I'm in complete agreement with Jon. However, I realize that our > opinions on these matters have very likely aged out of relevance. > > But, don't get biggety, young pepper-chests! Regardless of your > current youthful relevance, you, too, have irrelevance in your futures > and you'll be just as annoyed. My grandparents went to their graves > pretending that the "bicycle," as this form of velocipede was known in > my youth, was properly referred to only by the word, "wheel," to name > only one. > > I, too, expect to go to my grave, annoyed by the manner in which > people young enough to be my great-grandchildren are, even as I type, > working to fuck up what was once a beautiful language, in the form in > which it was bequeathed to me, ca. 1935-1965. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 12:34:19 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:34:19 -0400 Subject: _Symbian_ In-Reply-To: <201108110300.p7AImgYF027657@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Garson. At first I thought it was invented by Donald DeFreeze and the Symbionese. JL On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 10:59 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: _Symbian_ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wilson Gray > > Subject: _Symbian_ > > This word is apparently not in the OED nor in the UD, in the relevant > meaning. > > The denizens of Wikipedia apparently call the device a Sybian. It was > developed in the 1980s, and The Howard Stern Show has been a recent > locus of popularization. > > An online history at the sybian.com website provides a rationale for the > name: > > [begin excerpt] > Now we needed a name. For nearly four years we called it Master > Better, MB for short, but knew we had to come up with something > different. We finally agreed on Sybian. The Syb is derived from > Sybaris, an ancient Greek city in southern Italy, famous as a center > of luxurious living. A Sybarite is defined as a person who likes > luxurious things so we now refer to the owners of Sybian by that name. > > I would not label these links NSFW but I do not know your work environment: > http://www.sybian.com/sybian_history.html > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybian > > > < Continuing Wilson Gray's comment> > > http://xhamster.com/search.php?q=symbian&qcat=video > > > > The cited URL is that of a for-real porn site featuring the niche > > paraphilia based on the use of the symbian, a particular kind of sex > > toy, which is shown as it's commonly used. If you can't get ready for > > serious pornography, take a pass on this. > > > > I leave the task of coming up with a definition of this object to the > > professionals. I'm not going to try this at home!:-) > > > > WRT whether there be any connection with the name of the Symbian OS, > > deponent hath no opinion. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Aug 11 13:03:44 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:03:44 -0400 Subject: Annual meeting: proposals due Monday Message-ID: Just a reminder that the CFP deadline for the annual meeting of the American Dialect Society is this coming Monday, August 15. Please submit your proposal if you're at all interested in presenting! http://www.americandialect.org/index.php/amerdial/call_for_papers_american_dialect_society_annual_meeting_2012_portland/ Jesse Sheidlower [switching hats] President Elect, ADS ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 11 15:22:59 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 11:22:59 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" In-Reply-To: <201108110350.p7B3oE3Y029435@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to the late 18th century. I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on the track. In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a ribwork that's spun by a motor. In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized ride does. The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a very different career than I have had. GAT On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? >> > > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young > whipper-snappers. > > Joel > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 11 15:31:15 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 11:31:15 -0400 Subject: Science Fiction at the British Library Message-ID: Some of you all have shown interest in science fiction, and Wilson at least was an early subscriber to the SF magazines. The TLS (Times Literary Supplement) of July 29 has a review by Brian Aldiss of an exhibition at the British Library of their holdings of science fiction, including issues of Astounding, Galaxy and New Worlds. Aldiss regrets the absence of Nebula and Authentic. There is a "large and interesting" catalog, edited by Mike Ashley, for 16.95 quid. Out of This World: Science Fiction, But Not As You Know It. 978 0 7123 5835 4 GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 17:17:57 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 17:17:57 +0000 Subject: What words should be imported In-Reply-To: <201108110224.p7B0HHME000732@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This link has some comments about good words to bring into English. http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2011/08/useful-words#comment-1003490 Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 11 17:51:36 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:51:36 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" In-Reply-To: <201108111523.p7BAl34U012276@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I came across this: Journal of the Franklin Institute - Page 303 books.google.comFranklin Institute (Philadelphia, Pa.) - 1844 - Free Google eBook http://bit.ly/q2e9tE "The opposite ends of a sweep" sounds like a swing to me, not a carousel... 20. For a machine for giving Exercise to Dyspeptics and other Invalids; Oliver Halsted, New York city, March 13. The patentee says,?'-The nature of tny invention consists in giving to a seat, upon which the patient is placed, an exercise similar to that given to the rider on a horse, with this difference, that, in the absence of all effort, on the part of the patient, to retain his seat upon the chair of exercise, (which absence of effort is not obtained on horse back,) he may relax the abdominal muscles, which is indispensable in order to stimulate the muscular coat of the stomach, and, at the same time, restore the peristaltic motion of the bowels, so that both secure their heathy action." The seat may be attached, by means of a slide, to one end of a working beam, vibrated by means of a crank, eccentric, or cam, actuated by any first mover; or a seat may be attached by the same means to a car, the axle of one of the sets of wheels being cranked to vibrate the beam, and two of these cars may be attached to the opposite ends of a sweep, in the manner of what are well known as flying horses. There are various modifications described and represented. Claim.?"What I claim as my invention, is the giving of an undulating, or jolting, motion to a chair by means substantially as herein described, for the purpose of curative treatment of dyspeptics, and other invalids, and for healthful exercise. I do not mean to confine myself to the precise form of construction of the individual parts, but vary them as 1 may have occasion, without departing from the general principles of action herein set forth, to wit, the giving of an undulating, or jolting, motion to a chair in contradistinction to a rocking, or oscillating, movement of the same, of which several examples of such variations are represented and specified." DanG On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:22 AM, George Thompson wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: "flying horses" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to > the late 18th century. > > I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am > puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise > for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's > feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and > forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken > in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must > have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling > a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on > the track. > > In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk > which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a > ribwork that's spun by a motor. > In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise > and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there > were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it > a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but > still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized > ride does. > The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at > Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot > radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, > even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. > > There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at > Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, > since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a > separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse > moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level > track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with > my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on > beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. > This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, > and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a > very different career than I have had. > > GAT > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > > > >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or > >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? > >> > > > > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels > > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the > > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some > > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young > > whipper-snappers. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 11 19:51:38 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:51:38 -0400 Subject: "flying horses", "exercise", "quadrille" -- and "fandango" 1831 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: George, The "exercise" reference seems explained by the item below, the most forthcoming of the quotations I've seen. I looked at Early American Newspapers (where I too found the 1796 citation) and 19th Century American Newspapers. 1831: Daily National Intelligencer, (Washington, DC) Thursday, November 17, 1831; Issue 5860; col E [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] Flying Horses. This interesting exercise is found to be productive both of Health and Amusement. The Proprietor, Mr. T. Clarke, respectfully informs the Ladies and Gentlemen of Washington and vicinity, that he intends giving an exhibition of the Flying Horses, At Carusi's Assembly Rooms, on Tuesday, Nov 8, For the Exercise and Pleasure of Riding and Catching the Ring on the Point of a Sword, practised as an exercise between two or four persons. It is an interesting exercise, and at the same time conducive to health. Physicians have recommended the Swing Car of Diana, Fandango, and many other inventions, for exercise and health; but to all of them there has been some particular objection made, which this invention obviates. the Proprietor invites the attention of the inhabitants of this vicinity to the trial of his Domesticated Horses, and every attention will be paid to their pleasure and convenience. ["Ring[s]" is similar to later carousels (e.g., the 1876 Coney Island/now at Martha's Vineyard "Flying Horses" carousel; see Wikipedia). Thus I infer this exercise apparatus is not some kind of swing, unlike Dan's, but rather rotating. "Four persons" presumably explains George's "quadrille" mention; additionally, the OED associates both "quadrille" and "carousel" with equestrian displays/exercises. Genteel enough -- and easy enough on the dance flooring? -- to be conducted in an Assembly Room, and ridden by Ladies. But was this apparatus propelled by the riders, or by a motor? "Carousel" dates from 1673, with the quotation using the words "invencon" and "engines"; "merry-go-round" dates from 1729 and next 1807. Were these propelled by motors, live horses or other draft animals (unlikely in an Assembly Room, surely), or the riders' feet?] ["Swing-car" probably refers to something like those on a Ferris-wheel. The Friends' Intelligencer, Vol. 31, allegedly 1875 [Google Books} has the following: Merry-go-rounds, and a gigantic wheel-apparatus, with a swing-car suspended from each spoke, are very popular. Note that the first "Ferris-wheel" was 1893 (Wikipedia). Does the 1875 device antedate it?] "Fandango" 1831: The OED doesn't appear to have any invention under "fandango", just the dance etc. There are a number of additional mentions of a "flying horse[s]" devices in EAN and 19th C. Amer. Newspapers, from the 1830s and on. Hazard's register of Philadelphia, 1835, appears to say that flying horses were illegal in Philadelphia at that time. [Google Books] Joel At 8/11/2011 11:22 AM, George Thompson wrote: >My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to >the late 18th century. > >I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am >puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise >for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's >feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and >forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken >in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must >have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling >a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on >the track. > >In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk >which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a >ribwork that's spun by a motor. >In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise >and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there >were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it >a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but >still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized >ride does. >The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at >Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot >radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, >even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. > >There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at >Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, >since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a >separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse >moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level >track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with >my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on >beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. > This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, >and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a >very different career than I have had. > >GAT > >On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: > > > >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or > >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? > >> > > > > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels > > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the > > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some > > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young > > whipper-snappers. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 11 22:21:57 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:21:57 -0400 Subject: "flying horses", "exercise", "quadrille" -- and "fandango" 1831 In-Reply-To: <201108111951.p7BJpgpb025688@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: could there be any information in the patent records of the US government that could answer some of these questions? On Aug 11, 2011, at 3:51 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > George, > > The "exercise" reference seems explained by the item below, the most > forthcoming of the quotations I've seen. I looked at Early American > Newspapers (where I too found the 1796 citation) and 19th Century > American Newspapers. > > 1831: Daily National Intelligencer, (Washington, DC) Thursday, > November 17, 1831; Issue 5860; col E [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > Flying Horses. > This interesting exercise is found to be productive both of Health > and Amusement. > The Proprietor, Mr. T. Clarke, respectfully informs the Ladies > and Gentlemen of Washington and vicinity, that he intends giving an > exhibition of the > Flying Horses, > At Carusi's Assembly Rooms, on Tuesday, Nov 8, > For the Exercise and Pleasure of Riding and Catching the Ring > on the Point of a Sword, practised as an exercise between two or four > persons. It is an interesting exercise, and at the same time > conducive to health. > Physicians have recommended the Swing Car of Diana, Fandango, > and many other inventions, for exercise and health; but to all of > them there has been some particular objection made, which this > invention obviates. the Proprietor invites the attention of the > inhabitants of this vicinity to the trial of his Domesticated Horses, > and every attention will be paid to their pleasure and convenience. > > ["Ring[s]" is similar to later carousels (e.g., the 1876 Coney > Island/now at Martha's Vineyard "Flying Horses" carousel; see > Wikipedia). Thus I infer this exercise apparatus is not some kind of > swing, unlike Dan's, but rather rotating. "Four persons" presumably > explains George's "quadrille" mention; additionally, the OED > associates both "quadrille" and "carousel" with equestrian > displays/exercises. Genteel enough -- and easy enough on the dance > flooring? -- to be conducted in an Assembly Room, and ridden by > Ladies. But was this apparatus propelled by the riders, or by a > motor? "Carousel" dates from 1673, with the quotation using the > words "invencon" and "engines"; "merry-go-round" dates from 1729 and > next 1807. Were these propelled by motors, live horses or other > draft animals (unlikely in an Assembly Room, surely), or the riders' feet?] > > ["Swing-car" probably refers to something like those on a > Ferris-wheel. The Friends' Intelligencer, Vol. 31, allegedly 1875 > [Google Books} has the following: > > Merry-go-rounds, and a gigantic wheel-apparatus, with a swing-car > suspended from each spoke, are very popular. > > Note that the first "Ferris-wheel" was 1893 (Wikipedia). Does the > 1875 device antedate it?] > > "Fandango" 1831: The OED doesn't appear to have any invention under > "fandango", just the dance etc. > > There are a number of additional mentions of a "flying horse[s]" > devices in EAN and 19th C. Amer. Newspapers, from the 1830s and on. > > Hazard's register of Philadelphia, 1835, appears to say that flying > horses were illegal in Philadelphia at that time. [Google Books] > > Joel > > At 8/11/2011 11:22 AM, George Thompson wrote: >> My past, I think, is pretty much coeval with yours; but we don't go back to >> the late 18th century. >> >> I do suppose that these flying horses were a merry-go-round, but I am >> puzzled as to how they could have operated so as to be a source of exercise >> for the riders. A back-and-forth swing is exercise, either in kicking one's >> feet against the ground at the nadir, or in throwing one's body back and >> forth to move the center of gravity. The riders on the railroad at Hoboken >> in the 1830s sat in the car and moved it by turning a hand crank. this must >> have worked either by turning the wheels the car rolled on, (like pedalling >> a bicycle), or by turning a cogwheel under the car that engaged something on >> the track. >> >> In a modern fair, we might see wooden horses sitting on a circular disk >> which is rotated by a motor at the center, or wooden horses hanging from a >> ribwork that's spun by a motor. >> In the second contraption, without a motor, the riders could get exercise >> and move themselves and each other by kicking against the ground; if there >> were riders on several horses they would balance the thing and could move it >> a bit faster by coordinating their kicks than a single rider could, but >> still they wouldn't get the effect of centrifugal force that a motorized >> ride does. >> The first could, I suppose, be moved by hand cranks like the ride at >> Hoboken, but sitting on a wooden horse at the outside of a 25 or 30 foot >> radius disk while pedalling to move the disk doesn't sound like much fun, >> even for people who thought that going 8 miles an hour was going too fast. >> >> There's also the example of the Steeplechase ride at Steeplechase Park at >> Coney Island, which I was actually on, when a little boy. Long gone, now, >> since the mid-50s. In that ride, there were 5 or 6 horses each on a >> separate track that ran around the outside of a large building. Each horse >> moved independently. It was powered by gravity, but I suppose on a level >> track the horses could have been moved by pedalling. I rode the thing with >> my father on the next horse, and quickly noticed that I could count on >> beating him to the finish line if I took the horse nearest the building. >> This shows that I had the mental acuity to have been a successful jockey, >> and if only I hadn't grown to be 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs, I might have had a >> very different career than I have had. >> >> GAT >> >> On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> > At 8/10/2011 04:40 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> > >> >> Presumably these were all some sort of Whirligig, or Roundabout, or >> >> Merry-go-round, &c.; though perhaps some sort of a back-and-forth swing? >> >> >> > >> > I definitely associate "flying horses" with carousels >> > (merry-go-rounds), not swings. The ones that go up and down as the >> > merry go round. (That is, I must have heard or read it at some >> > time.) But perhaps this is too far in the past for you young >> > whipper-snappers. >> > >> > Joel >> > >> > ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> George A. Thompson >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 11 23:37:52 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 19:37:52 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: "flying horses" Message-ID: A correspondent on another list thoughtfully (in contrast to moi) reported from the "Carousel" article on Wikipedia: >I'm inclined to think that this refers to a carousel. Wikipedia says, "The >earliest known depiction of a carousel is in a Byzantine bas-relief dating to >around 500 A.D., which depicts riders in baskets suspended from a central >pole." >Further, "Early carousels had no platforms: the animals would hang on poles or >chains and fly out from the centrifugal force of the spinning mechanism; these >are called "flying horses" carousels." Wikipedia's entry notes that carousels >were popular features of European fairs, although they didn't reach the >pinnacle of achievement until the American phase (I do not comment on the >-centrism implied by such a subjective view). Although Wiki cites no sources for this, I can believe there were carousels with horses on chains and that such horses on chains is a significant contributor to the emergence of the phrase "flying horses". A 2001 article in the Los Angeles Times, also unsourced, makes the same claim [Google]. and http://factoidz.com/carousels-a-brief-history/ claims to know the motive power: "The carved horses or animals hung from poles by chains, flying outward from centrifugal force as it turned by animals walking in circles, or people pulling a rope or cranking" [a short and dubious list of references, which includes -- unfortunately -- Wikipedia's "Carousel" article]. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 00:34:46 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:34:46 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090522.p7916Pcv019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett wrote > 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > > that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? Today I was reading through the 1951 Newsweek article about slang that contained the first known instance of the modern sense of "nerd" (after the ambiguous occurrence in Seuss) and I came across "sluff" associated with "cutting classes". Cite: 1951 October 8, Newsweek, Page 28, Column 3, Newsweek, Inc. (Verified on microfilm) When talking, Utah bobbysoxers are bashing ears; when kissing, they are lumping lips. They seek out flicks (movies) and drive a wedge, a set of wheels, or a rocket. When cutting classes, they sluff. Chili means good deal; Dad is any young man, and drag it is let's hurry. On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 1:21 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The ADS list search for 1999 to today seems to be down, but the = > 1992-1999 search is working.=20 > > 1. On the ADS list on 5 February 1994 = > (http://www.americandialect.org/americandialectarchives/feb94.html), = > Donald M. Lance reports being told by Jan Brunvand on the ADS list: > > ----- > that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of that hooky = > stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing school = > policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread? (I don't keep up with the modern = > world and don't know these modren terms.) 'Sluff' is the usual term = > here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my wife says she used = > 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966. > ----- > > 2. Keith Russell says on that same day: > ----- > We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant something more like 'to = > be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard' or 'to = > not do something.' "Did you do your homework?" "No, I sluffed it off." > ----- > > 3. On that same day, Charles F Juengling reports "sluff off" meaning "be = > lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not try very hard." > > 4. The following day, Lew Sanborne lsanbore reports "we used "sluff" to = > mean "ditched school," and also in "sluff off," meaning to slack off, or = > to not do what one should have been doing." > > 5. The Urban Dictionary = > (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=3Dsluff) has a slew of = > definitions for "sluff," including: "Used most commonly in the Western = > U.S., sluffing (probably derived from the word 'to slough') is = > synonymous with skipping class, cutting class, or ditching class." One = > example given by a different person is "Dude, your such a sluff! " One = > other relevant definition and example is: "When your drug dealer is late = > in delivering the goods / Damn, I was supposed to get hooked up an hour = > ago, why does Joe have to sluff?" > > These meanings of sluff and sluff off are not in the OED, nor is sluffer = > (an alternative to "sluff" as a person). > > 6. With one possible exception, the earliest citation I see on Google = > for "sluffer" (being the easiest to search for, though probably a = > derivative of "sluff") is 1 February 2001 and it has the verb "sluff" as = > well:=20 > > ----- > One who sluffs off because he's in a small church or position will = > likely not have the opportunity to handle a bigger church or more = > responsible position. > > One who is growing is getting better and better at things, able to = > handle a bigger and more responsible load. He's not a sluffer or parker. > > (http://www.stevedavis.org/chapter%2019.html) > ----- > > 7. That possible exception is from 1924 in "The Field Artillery = > Journal," January-February edition, in a poem and is repeated in the = > poem: > > ----- > I'm a slouch and a slop and a sluffer,=20 > And my ears they are covered with hair,=20 > And I frequent inhabit the guardhouse,=20 > I'll be "priv." until "fini la guerre." > > = > (http://sill-www.army.mil/famag/1924/JAN_FEB_1924/JAN_FEB_1924_FULL_EDITIO= > N.pdf) > ----- > > This seems to match the meaning, but is so far removed in time from all = > the other hits that it seems dubious. Could this have been military = > slang that surfaced in Lance's wife's high school in the 1960s? > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 06:01:40 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 02:01:40 -0400 Subject: Semantic drift: pornographic = 'characterized in any way by sexual acts' In-Reply-To: <201108091643.p79AmDw0004212@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Jeffs used to frequent "pornographic clubs" in various cities. Me, too. Well, I hope no distant cousin dies. Going back to Texas may not be the sensible thing to do. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Aug 12 15:01:56 2011 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:01:56 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut Message-ID: While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the biggest price-drops in housing prices: http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-haircut-youve-found/ this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined "A 33% haircut? and we're just getting started" and includes "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% haircut- if it sold at list, which isn?t going to happen." It concludes: "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more properties will be wearing them. " which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, therefor "shorter"? I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU What Does Haircut Mean? 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and sell a security. 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral levels. Investopedia explains Haircut 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade at such a thin spread. 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case the market value falls. So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon than dialect.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 15:17:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:17:38 -0400 Subject: Follow-up on sluff - play hooky, slack off In-Reply-To: <201108090637.p7916Pdl019013@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have not been following this thread closely, but I can report, with certainty, that "sluff" and "sluff off" was used by one of our bridge players (a New Yorker) in 1985 (and years following, of course). He used it both with and without "off" with _no change in meaning_. It's possible he picked it up from reading bridge columns, as most of us learned to play bridge in college, largely teaching each other, although some already knew Hearts and/or Spades. But I did not get the sense that this was something new for him. VS-) On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 2:36 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ... > Transitive "sluff" - without "off" - has the same meaning as "discard" > in the playing-bridge-or-any-other-variant-of-whist sense. > ... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 15:18:07 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:18:07 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: <201108121502.p7CAlMQI028646@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In financial terms, "haircut" usually refers to a discount in valuation, falling under #2 below. If you give me collateral worth $100 million dollars at today's market price, I have to consider that it may be worth less tomorrow (and you may be hard to find and ask for more collateral) and that the market price might not hold firm if I tried to sell $100 million worth of the collateral in one go. Accordingly, I put a haircut on the collateral. The size of the haircut will reflect the quality of the collateral. I might not haircut a T-bill at all; a good quality corporate bond may get a 10% haircut, today a mortgage bond might get a 50% haircut. More generally, "haircut" is used to mean discount. The "home price haircut" is not very common, and the "shorter and shorter" comment is confusing to me, too, and looks like it was invented on the spot by a writer who should be less creative in his or her imagery. That said, "haircut" meaning "discount" has a long history. DanG On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Housing/financial haircut > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a > usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the > asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a > little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across > is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the > biggest price-drops in housing prices: > http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-haircut-youve-found/ > > this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined > "A 33% haircut? and we're just getting started" > and includes > "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% > haircut- if it sold at list, which isn?t going to happen." > It concludes: > "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more > properties will be wearing them. " > > which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I > first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, > therefor "shorter"? > > I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here > http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU > > What Does Haircut Mean? > 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and > sell a security. > > 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the > purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral > levels. > > Investopedia explains Haircut > 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade > at such a thin spread. > > 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be > devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case > the market value falls. > > > So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first > glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. > (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon > than dialect.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 12 15:58:04 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:58:04 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: <201108121518.p7CAlMvL022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For more on the history of the financial "haircut," see William Safire's 2009 On Language column: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11wwln-safire-t.html I provided him with cites back to 1955, which I presented in full here: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0901B&L=ADS-L&P=R2196 --bgz On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > In financial terms, "haircut" usually refers to a discount in > valuation, falling under #2 below. If you give me collateral worth > $100 million dollars at today's market price, I have to consider that > it may be worth less tomorrow (and you may be hard to find and ask for > more collateral) and that the market price might not hold firm if I > tried to sell $100 million worth of the collateral in one go. > Accordingly, I put a haircut on the collateral. The size of the > haircut will reflect the quality of the collateral. I might not > haircut a T-bill at all; a good quality corporate bond may get a 10% > haircut, today a mortgage bond might get a 50% haircut. > > More generally, "haircut" is used to mean discount. The "home price > haircut" is not very common, and the "shorter and shorter" comment is > confusing to me, too, and looks like it was invented on the spot by a > writer who should be less creative in his or her imagery. That said, > "haircut" meaning "discount" has a long history. > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Ann Burlingham > wrote: > > > > While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a > > usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the > > asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a > > little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across > > is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the > > biggest price-drops in housing prices: > > http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-haircut-youve-found/ > > > > this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined > > "A 33% haircut? and we're just getting started" > > and includes > > "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% > > haircut- if it sold at list, which isn?t going to happen." > > It concludes: > > "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more > > properties will be wearing them. " > > > > which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I > > first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, > > therefor "shorter"? > > > > I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here > > http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU > > > > What Does Haircut Mean? > > 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and > > sell a security. > > > > 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the > > purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral > > levels. > > > > Investopedia explains Haircut > > 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade > > at such a thin spread. > > > > 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be > > devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case > > the market value falls. > > > > > > So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first > > glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. > > (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon > > than dialect.) > > -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Fri Aug 12 16:15:08 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:15:08 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: We've talked about "haircut" before. It derives ultimately from Securities and Exchange Commission Rule 15c3-1, which requires securities brokerage firms to meet specified net capital requirements. In determining whether the firms have sufficient net capital, the rule provides for discounts, known as "haircuts," from the securities' market values. The reason is that the purpose of the rule is to require firms to have sufficient capital in times of stress, and more volatile securities provide a less certain cushion in such times. "Haircut" has been broadly extended to refer to a variety of different kinds of valuation discounts. I've never heard "shorter" in reference to this kind of haircut before. I guess the concept is that a shorter haircut is one that removes a lot of hair. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dan Goncharoff Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 11:18 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Housing/financial haircut In financial terms, "haircut" usually refers to a discount in valuation, falling under #2 below. If you give me collateral worth $100 million dollars at today's market price, I have to consider that it may be worth less tomorrow (and you may be hard to find and ask for more collateral) and that the market price might not hold firm if I tried to sell $100 million worth of the collateral in one go. Accordingly, I put a haircut on the collateral. The size of the haircut will reflect the quality of the collateral. I might not haircut a T-bill at all; a good quality corporate bond may get a 10% haircut, today a mortgage bond might get a 50% haircut. More generally, "haircut" is used to mean discount. The "home price haircut" is not very common, and the "shorter and shorter" comment is confusing to me, too, and looks like it was invented on the spot by a writer who should be less creative in his or her imagery. That said, "haircut" meaning "discount" has a long history. DanG On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ann Burlingham > Subject: Housing/financial haircut > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > While searching for information about cutting hair, I came across a > usage today I hadn't seen before: "haircut" to refer to cutting the > asking price of real estate. I'm not yet clear on the definition - a > little off the top? a lot off the top? The first article I came across > is a Seattle real estate column discussing "worst haircuts" - the > biggest price-drops in housing prices: > http://seattlebubble.com/blog/2010/10/04/whats-the-worst-home-price-hair cut-youve-found/ > > this one http://housingdoom.com/2008/02/17/a-33-haircut/ is headlined > "A 33% haircut- and we're just getting started" > and includes > "Home is currently listed for sale at $190,890. That would be a 33% > haircut- if it sold at list, which isn't going to happen." > It concludes: > "Look for the haircuts to get shorter and shorter this year- and more > properties will be wearing them. " > > which I find confusing - is a "shorter haircut" a smaller drop, as I > first thought, or, my second guess, the resulting price is lower, > therefor "shorter"? > > I find it defined in a couple online glossaries, for instance here > http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/haircut.asp#axzz1UpJGq4pU > > What Does Haircut Mean? > 1. The difference between prices at which a market maker can buy and > sell a security. > > 2. The percentage by which an asset's market value is reduced for the > purpose of calculating capital requirement, margin and collateral > levels. > > Investopedia explains Haircut > 1. The term haircut comes from the fact that market makers can trade > at such a thin spread. > > 2. When they are used as collateral, securities will generally be > devalued since a cushion is required by the lending parties in case > the market value falls. > > > So, a new one to me, clearly in use by insiders but opaque at my first > glance. It sounds like it's been around in financial circles longest. > (I apologise if this is woefully off-topic; I guess it's more jargon > than dialect.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 16:20:03 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:20:03 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance Message-ID: I'm not sure how much interest there might be in this, but there are some potentially attention-worthy elements in the story of an 18-year old drunk (no longer) US Olympic skier arrested after an incident on a JetBlue flight. There seems to be a dichotomy between the more formal traditional media (and their websites') reports of "urinating" and the bloggers comments on "peeing", while the guy's own explanation involved "pissing". I also had a question concerning the MSNBC headline: http://goo.gl/KwCYN Olympic dreams dashed after unfortunate in-flight incident I am not sure whether to characterize this as an unfortunate misinterpretation of events or their attempt to give the kid the benefit of a doubt. My own stylistic gremlins would not allow me to use "dreams dashed" in this context, as this would have implied external or independent (random) agency--being beaten by someone else (including losses due to own admitted mistakes /during the competition/), accidental injury, unusual circumstances, parental action, etc. But, in this case, being kicked off the team is a direct product of the skier's own asinine behavior (drunk or not)--basically, if it's your own fault, your dreams can't be "dashed" (in my writing style). What I am trying to figure out is whether it's my own predilections or some kind of received rule or some kind of frequency analysis. In fact, in this particular headline, as an editor, I would not have used "unfortunate" either, because it also suggests a random act or an external agent. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM Fri Aug 12 16:36:36 2011 From: ann at BURLINGHAMBOOKS.COM (Ann Burlingham) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:36:36 -0400 Subject: Housing/financial haircut In-Reply-To: <201108121608.p7CAlM7f022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:58 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ben Zimmer > Subject: Re: Housing/financial haircut > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For more on the history of the financial "haircut," see William > Safire's 2009 On Language column: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazine/11wwln-safire-t.html > > I provided him with cites back to 1955, which I presented in full here: > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0901B&L=ADS-L&P=R2196 Ah, thanks! I did search the ADS-L archive before writing, finding mostly discussions of mullets (and shags). ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Fri Aug 12 17:04:28 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:04:28 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If Jet Blue sold ANYONE 8 drinks in a flight, they are at least partly to blame. If they sold even one drink to an 18-year-old, they violated another (albeit misguided) US law. Sent from my iPad On Aug 12, 2011, at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I'm not sure how much interest there might be in this, but there are some > potentially attention-worthy elements in the story of an 18-year old drunk > (no longer) US Olympic skier arrested after an incident on a JetBlue flight. > There seems to be a dichotomy between the more formal traditional media (and > their websites') reports of "urinating" and the bloggers comments on > "peeing", while the guy's own explanation involved "pissing". > > I also had a question concerning the MSNBC headline: > > http://goo.gl/KwCYN > Olympic dreams dashed after unfortunate in-flight incident > > I am not sure whether to characterize this as an unfortunate > misinterpretation of events or their attempt to give the kid the benefit of > a doubt. My own stylistic gremlins would not allow me to use "dreams dashed" > in this context, as this would have implied external or independent (random) > agency--being beaten by someone else (including losses due to own admitted > mistakes /during the competition/), accidental injury, unusual > circumstances, parental action, etc. But, in this case, being kicked off the > team is a direct product of the skier's own asinine behavior (drunk or > not)--basically, if it's your own fault, your dreams can't be "dashed" (in > my writing style). What I am trying to figure out is whether it's my own > predilections or some kind of received rule or some kind of frequency > analysis. In fact, in this particular headline, as an editor, I would not > have used "unfortunate" either, because it also suggests a random act or an > external agent. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 17:25:08 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:25:08 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching Message-ID: A number of liberal-leaning blogs used the "pearl-clutching" metaphor in the last few days. TalkingPointsMemo used it twice in the last 24 hours. Yet, I am not even sure they are all using it in the same manner. StraightDope had a discussion on this in 2005, but there was no clear resolution--there appear to be two competing explanation, both, of course, involving grabbing pearl necklaces in excitement. One is simply a mark of being excited, shocked or upset, the other adds a connotation of being prissy or unfashionable, which gives it an air of flakiness. There is some agreement /and/ disagreement on the latter--some prefer the narrow meaning, others are unhappy with it. UD has "clutching my pearls" entry that helpfully suggests "A new phrase among the gay Maryland circle". On second thought, it does sound like something RuPaul (or Church Lady) might say. Any thoughts on origin/meaning? It appears too new to show up in any dictionaries. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Aug 12 17:38:34 2011 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:38:34 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 8/12/11 1:25 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > A number of liberal-leaning blogs used the "pearl-clutching" metaphor in the > last few days. TalkingPointsMemo used it twice in the last 24 hours. Yet, I > am not even sure they are all using it in the same manner. StraightDope had > a discussion on this in 2005, but there was no clear resolution--there > appear to be two competing explanation, both, of course, involving grabbing > pearl necklaces in excitement. One is simply a mark of being excited, > shocked or upset, the other adds a connotation of being prissy or > unfashionable, which gives it an air of flakiness. There is some agreement > /and/ disagreement on the latter--some prefer the narrow meaning, others are > unhappy with it. UD has "clutching my pearls" entry that helpfully suggests > "A new phrase among the gay Maryland circle". On second thought, it does > sound like something RuPaul (or Church Lady) might say. > > Any thoughts on origin/meaning? It appears too new to show up in any > dictionaries. I've been on Ravelry (a knitting/crocheting/spinning social network) for about 4 years. In one of the forums I participate in, "pearl clutching" is regularly used as a pejorative, describing someone who "tsk tsks" in disapproval at some action or statement. The disapproval, with or without prissy-face, is key. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Fri Aug 12 18:04:09 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 11:04:09 -0700 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: I read the entire article, and I still have no clue what on earth it has to do with language -- Hasn't a hot dog always been a hot dog no matter how you cook it? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Aug 12 18:41:27 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:41:27 -0500 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times Message-ID: Message from Brian Hitchcock, Fri 8/12/2011 1:04 PM: I read the entire article, and I still have no clue what on earth it has to do with language -- Hasn't a hot dog always been a hot dog no matter how you cook it? ______________________________________ Reply: The main point of linguistic interest is the picture accompanying the article in the link below (mentioned in my Aug. 10 message). IAC, ads-l has treated the origin of "hot dog" in considerable detail, and I thought that some ads-l members might be interested in this latest article. Usually, long articles on the hot dog say something (albeit incorrect) about the origin of the term, and the absence of such an attempt in the recent NY Times article may be meaningful. I.e., the absence might reflect an awareness on the part of the author that it would be better to sidestep the issue of the term's origin than risk getting it wrong. Gerald Cohen (co-author with Barry Popik and the late David Shulman of the book Origin Of The Term "Hot Dog", 2004; additional, very valuable information has since surfaced thanks to Fred Shapiro, Ben Zimmer, and Barry Popik) ________________________________ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From: Cohen, Gerald Leonard Sent: Wed 8/10/2011 9:56 AM To: American Dialect Society Cc: bapopik at aol.com Subject: hot dog article in NY Times For "hot dog" afficionados: Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the New York hot dog: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-at-a-time.html The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters." G. Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dad at POKERWIZ.COM Fri Aug 12 20:51:03 2011 From: dad at POKERWIZ.COM (David A. Daniel) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 17:51:03 -0300 Subject: hot dog article in NY Times In-Reply-To: <201108121842.p7CAlMg1022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: When I read the response from BH I had a feeling he wasn't aware of the relationship between ADS-L and hotdogs (and hamburgers too). I, personally, have found the whole thing fascinating, as I think most on the list have as well. And the "Hot Frankfurter" sign only adds to the mystique of the whole affair. DAD Message from Brian Hitchcock, Fri 8/12/2011 1:04 PM: I read the entire article, and I still have no clue what on earth it has = to do with language -- Hasn't a hot dog always been a hot dog no matter how = you cook it? ______________________________________ =20 Reply:=20 The main point of linguistic interest is the picture accompanying the = article in the link below (mentioned in my Aug. 10 message). =20 IAC, ads-l has treated the origin of "hot dog" in considerable detail, = and I thought that some ads-l members might be interested in this latest = article. Usually, long articles on the hot dog say something (albeit = incorrect) about the origin of the term, and the absence of such an = attempt in the recent NY Times article may be meaningful. I.e., the = absence might reflect an awareness on the part of the author that it = would be better to sidestep the issue of the term's origin than risk = getting it wrong. =20 Gerald Cohen (co-author with Barry Popik and the late David Shulman of the book = Origin Of The Term "Hot Dog", 2004; additional, very valuable information has since surfaced thanks to Fred = Shapiro, Ben Zimmer, and Barry Popik) ________________________________ : hot dog article in NY Times For "hot dog" afficionados:=20 Barry Popik has drawn my attention to a recent NY Times article on the = New York hot dog: =20 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/dining/the-hot-dog-redefined-one-cart-a= t-a-time.html =20 The article does not treat the origin of the term "hot dog." But a = picture accompanying the article in the above link caught my attention. = It shows a hot dog vendor, "ca. 1910," but the sign on his cart doesn't = say "Hot Dogs"; it says "Hot Frankfurters." =20 The term "hot dog" had not yet become a generally accepted term (still a = bit akin in its semantic nuance to "roadkill"), and vendors wishing to = entice passers-by to purchase their comestible no doubt felt they would = have better luck by having their signs proclaim "Hot Frankfurters."=20 =20 G. Cohen =20 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Aug 12 23:43:44 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 16:43:44 -0700 Subject: Jook (1932), juk (1939) and juk (1993) Message-ID: In Lisa See's "Shanghai Girls: A Novel," she uses the word jook five times, defining it the first time as "rice porridge" and italicizing it each time (http://ow.ly/628eX). In my experience, the word is common enough in conversation with Cantonese speakers--hence See's choice rather than "congee" or "rice porridge"--but does not occur in the OED (though the word "jook" is listed). Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congee) spells the Cantonese as "juk" which Wiktionary confirms as "juk1" for ? (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%B2%A5). The word in Korean is also "juk" ?, which has the same hanja ? (http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A3%BD). That spelling is not in the OED, either. As indicated in citation 2 below, the dish has a history of being served to Chinese clientele in the US. I'm sure there are earlier citations than these available on Chinese and Korean menus, though the earliest may not be written out in the alphabet. JOOK 1. The earliest Google Books citation I find is 1932, which interestingly gives "chowder" instead of "porridge." "Strange newes from China: a first Chinese cookery book," by Townley Searle, A. Ouseley, ltd., 1932 (http://ow.ly/628lf). A. Page 138: 48. JI YUK JOOK RICE CHOWDER WITH MINCED PORK B. Page 146: YU SARN JOOK RICE CHOWDER WITH FRESH FISH, &c. 2. 1933 "Better food, Volume 38," by Boston Cooking School, Whitney Publications, Inc., 1933 (http://ow.ly/628oP) Page 156: ..._"jer yook jook,"_ a rice broth in which toothsome meat balls are cooked. _"Jer yook jook"_ isn't found on the menu of any ordinary chop-suey restaurant. It is to be had only in a few places where the patronage is mostly Chinese, so the general public has... _"Jer yook jook"_ is an ideal... JUK - CANTONESE 1. 1939 "The Red Cross courier, Volumes 19-20," by American National Red Cross (http://ow.ly/6293j) Page 53: Chinese authorities say cracked wheat makes better "juk," a favorite dish, than rice. 2. 1939 "The Health officer, Volume 4", United States. Public Health Service (http://ow.ly/629hk) Page 126: Acknowledgments indicate that "The cracked wheat is going like hotcakes and makes better 'juk' than rice; is more popular and more nourishing. One Chinese woman... 2. 1974 "East West: the Chinese-American news magazine, Volume 8 (http://ow.ly/6297z, but the citation does not occur there. It appears at http://ow.ly/6298u.) Food is delicious still cheaper than in the US For breakfast, we had "juk" ? much ier than even Sam Wo's and at US $.50 3. 1974 "Mrs. Lee's cookbook: Nonya recipes and other favourite recipes," by Chin Koon Lee (http://ow.ly/629bK) No citation available JUK - KOREAN Around 1981, there are some hits according to Google Books, but nothing that can be verified there. 1993 "Gourmet, Volume 53, Issues 7-12," by Pearl Violette Newfield Metzelthin, Cond? Nast Publications (http://ow.ly/629rB, citation at http://ow.ly/629sZ) Page 89: The menu, in Korean and English, is reader-friendly if sometimes silly: "Tortellini" is the translation for the Korean dumplings called mandu; "risotto" for juk, a soupy rice-flour porridge. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 23:50:21 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:50:21 -0400 Subject: lobster Message-ID: One of the latest stories on Consumerist retells Zabar's "apology" for misleading consumers for 20 years. Of course, that, in itself, does not have an ADS hook. But there is a hook! http://goo.gl/MqgOJ > "Crayfish are known locally as lobsters or crawdads or mudbugs'," > 83-year-old owner Saul Zabar told 1010 WINS. The blend "consists of > wild-caught crayfish and occasionally when we could get them we'd also add > langoustine, some mayonnaise a little bit of salt, a drop of sugar and we've > been calling this lobster salad." > > The charm of the story failed to work wonders on the Maine Lobster Council, > who gave the deli a call. Since then, Zabar's has changed the name on the > label to "Seafarer Salad." However, the label on the shelf remains "Lobster > Salad." Why? > The bottom line is that Zabar's has been pretending to sell lobster when they were actually selling crayfish, with an occasional mix-in of langostinos. Red Lobster has got in trouble some time ago when they were passing langostinos for "lobster". So they solved the problem by using what they thought was a different English name for langostinos--"rock lobster". Langostinos and langoustine are the same thing and the OED claims they are identical with "Dublin prawn". "Rock lobster", on the other hand, has a completely different definition: rock lobster n. any of various spiny lobsters or marine crayfish > constituting the family Palinuridae, esp. of the genera Palinurus, > Panulirus, and Jasus. > So, according to the OED, at least one kind of crayfish is identified with one kind of "lobster". Spiny lobsters and marine crayfish are quite distinct, so I am not sure what's going on here in terms of crustacean taxonomy, but there are enough complications here to wonder if Zabar's explanation really is completely sincere. But it gets more complicated. OED "crayfish" does cover lobster--and even crab, although that particular entry is rather weak (the identification is between various spellings, such as crauys and crevise, with Latin "cancer", which is not the same thing as identity with "crab"). The problem is that these entries run out at the beginning of 18th century. Under "current use", we get 3.b.: With London fishmongers and generally on the sea-coast of Great Britain: The > Spiny Lobster, Palinurus vulgaris, the Langouste of the French. > But that's the wrong direction--this explains why someone might refer to langoustines or lobsters as "crayfish", not vice versa. Going in the other direction, under lobster 1.a., OED covers genus Homarus, which is what the Maine lobster is all about. Also included are other large crustaceans that resemble them. Then, there is 1.b.: Applied with qualification to other crustaceans resembling the above. > Norway lobster n. Nephrops norvegicus. spiny lobster n. (also thorny > lobster) Palinurus vulgaris = crayfish n. 3b. Some crayfishes are called > fresh-water lobsters. > If this is the case, Zabar's could have got away with just changing the name to "spiny lobster salad". Is /not/ doing so an admission of guilt? FDA might have something to say about that still. But, as far as general taxonomy is concerned, the OED fails to distinguish between langoustines, spiny lobsters, rock lobsters and various marine crayfish because any two of them are linked under different entries. This needs to be cleaned up. They don't all mean the same thing. VS-) PS: I should note that last time I was at Zabar's, they had samples of "lobster salad" and I tried it. I asked one of the guys at the counter if this was really lobster because it tasted more like ... langostinos (taste, texture and size of pieces were all way off). He responded that it was "like a small lobster", so it was pointless to argue. But I dropped the subject and did not think about it until I saw this story. Had no one else noticed in 20 years?? Or is this like going into a small restaurant and getting nameless cola when asking for "coke"? (That's something else I experienced just this week--legally, they could be liable if they don't correct the customer's request.) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 12 23:53:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:53:06 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <5DC0A83C-953F-447E-A028-6618C41BA446@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8/12/2011 01:04 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >If Jet Blue sold ANYONE 8 drinks in a flight, they are at least >partly to blame. If they sold even one drink to an 18-year-old, they >violated another (albeit misguided) US law. I believe the pisser in question imbibed his 8 drinks before he boarded. But I was only half-listening when I first heard the report and I have not followed it since. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 23:54:26 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:54:26 -0400 Subject: cursade for childern books Message-ID: http://goo.gl/dtPPK ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 12 23:59:46 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:59:46 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108122353.p7CAlMsl022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the spirit of full (available) disclosure, most stories DO mention that it is /not known/ (to the reporters, I presume) whether he consumed the drinks on the flight. This being a red-eye, it seems unlikely--at least, I don't recall JetBlue serving alcohol on the flights that I was on. Whatever the case, when the story expands, someone else is likely to end up with a fine or a suspended liquor license. But if JetBlue had any part of it, we may see them ban alcohol altogether for all flights. VS-) On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 7:53 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/12/2011 01:04 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: > >If Jet Blue sold ANYONE 8 drinks in a flight, they are at least > >partly to blame. If they sold even one drink to an 18-year-old, they > >violated another (albeit misguided) US law. > > I believe the pisser in question imbibed his 8 drinks before he > boarded. But I was only half-listening when I first heard the report > and I have not followed it since. > > Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 00:05:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:05:48 -0400 Subject: Bachmann Message-ID: Has anyone mentioned the line from last night's debate? "What submission means to us is respect." It was not entirely clear whether the audience was booing the question or the original comment that the question was based on (likely the former, given the crowd). VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 13 00:41:00 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:41:00 -0400 Subject: Flying coaches, 1776 and possible interpretation Message-ID: A correspondent cites "flying coaches" (as an amusement at fairs) from 1776. Is that early enough to be useful to the OED? And he speculates about what Richardson may have been referring to in "Clarissa". (For what it's worth, I think he's wrong there -- the better supposition is a "roundabout" with horses on chains. >The _Chester Chronicle Or Commercial Intelligencer_ (Thursday, May >9, 1776) has the following article about the horse racing venue: > >On Monday last, during the time of the race, a young woman, servant >to a farmer in this neighbourhood, had her pocket cut from her side >by two ill-looking men, it is supposed, who crowded up to her while >the horses were running; and, by the description given of them, are, >not improbably, of that vagrant tribe which infest such meetings >with gaming-tables, flying-coaches, &c. whom our worthy chief >Magistrate very judiciously prevented from exhibiting their delusive >practices on the race-grounds, and imposing upon credulous and unwary youth. > >This "vagrant tribe" sounds like the caravan sort that Dawn mentions >as still part of popular entertainment in annual fairs in the >UK. The "flying-coaches" here seem to be in the same category as >gambling equipment. Since Richardson himself rode a "chamber horse" >to reduce weight, I would suspect that the "flying horses" and >"flying coaches" were mechanical contraptions used to stimulate >"unwary youth" like the girls Lovelace and his tribe were fond of seducing. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 13 01:05:00 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:05:00 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 Message-ID: As Judith Anderson Stuart wrote [on another list], a 1721 print containing a carousel with what could be called "flying horses" (they are up in the air!) appears in the Wikipedia article "William Hogarth - The South Sea Scheme". I wonder how true it is to (amusement?) devices of the time. For example, I can't imagine it being comfortable for country fair patrons to mount. And it reminds me more of a device of torture (I assume that was intentional to Hogarth?). There was, of course, "riding the horse", "riding the rail". Several points interest me, assuming this carousel is to some degree true to life: 1) If I am seeing the Wikipedia image correctly, this "Wheel Ride" was turned by manpower via a bar extending through the axle on both sides 2) There are definitely horses being ridden ... although I'm not sure all the mounts are horses. 3) The horses are not on chains, so they do not "fly" out as the wheel turns. Joel At 8/12/2011 09:45 AM, John Dussinger wrote: >Postscript to my last: > >It just dawned on me (sorry Dawn!) that we can see these "flying >horses" in Hogarth's "South Sea" print of 1721. The caption on top >of the ride's post, "Who'l Ride," is similar to Lovelace's mimicry >of the hawkers at the fair: "Who rides next! Who rides next!" >Richardson may have had his friend's print in mind while >categorizing libertines as gamblers destructive of the state. I wish >that I could reproduce this print here. I have it hanging in my study. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 14:13:11 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 07:13:11 -0700 Subject: Fwd: pearl-clutching Message-ID: from a friend who uses various versions of the expression and has for years: Begin forwarded message: > From: Chris Ambidge > Date: August 12, 2011 4:47:34 PM PDT > To: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: Fwd: pearl-clutching > > Hello Arnold: > > I can tell you exactly when I first ran across "pearl-clutching". My friend Bill Morrison, anglican cleric in Victoria BC ... wrote it in an article in *Integrator*, the newsletter of Integrity which I edit. The online version of the article is here: http://toronto.integritycanada.org/integrator/i45.html#456 . The reference is in the third paragraph. The issue date on that volume is 2004 12 15, though the article was written a couple of months before that. > > That dating is for the use of the exact phrase "pearl-clutching". Bill was the first person to arrange it thataway, and I recall being impressed with the felicity of the phrase. > > However, I'd been using variations on same, as in "eek! clutch the pearls", or "where ARE my pearls when I need to clutch them", for years before that, all of them meaning an expression of mock/hyperbolic horror (as in, "I'm nearly out of tea. Clutch the pearls!"). I've also seen a Tshirt in Out In The Street, our local queer-ware gift shop, and source for homo-funny shirts, with the slogan "In Case Of Emergency .... clutch pearls". Someone gave me that shirt in 2000 or so. And the reason they gave it to me was that it's something I said more than once (so earlier than that). > > with a date-limited search on Google, I got "clutch the pearls" in the Buffalo Evening News : "23 Apr 1993 - WELL, CLUTCH the pearls, girls! As Antoine Merriweather, the lip-glossed character on "In Living Color," David Alan Grier became America's most flamboyant ..." , but that "earliest date" might be an artefact of the date of the posting to the Interwebz, as opposed to the date of the actual publication. "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these things are just lists of words and phrases. E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 14:38:39 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 07:38:39 -0700 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131413.p7DA05EL022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: i don't know how this posting got so messed up. i suppose it's all decipherable -- but note that everything in the posting is a forward from Chris Ambidge, except for the last bit (below), which is from me: On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, > glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these > things are just lists of words and phrases. > > E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. > > it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 13 15:46:12 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:46:12 -0400 Subject: "Could use to [infinitive]" In-Reply-To: <201108131438.p7DA05ER022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm familiar with "could use" meaning something like "want[s]" or "need[s]" or "could benefit from": e.g., "I sure could use a beer" or "My house could use a paint job" (or "My house could use [a/some] painting"). Recently a correspondent has asked about "could use to [infinitive]" in this sense. E.g., instead of "I could use a break" one might say "I could use to take a break" (meaning approx. "I want to take a break"). [I suppose one might could also say "My house could use to be painted", etc.] I don't think I'm familiar with this usage. I do find examples on-line. Is it regional? [Note also that this usage provides another example of ostensible "to be/get" elision parallel to "need/want/etc. washed": instead of "My car could use to be washed" (unfamiliar to me), a Pittsburgh or Midland speaker could say "My car could use washed" ... I do believe I've heard this construction and examples are indeed found on-line (e.g., search <<"could use cleaned">>).] -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 13 16:04:42 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:04:42 -0700 Subject: Throat singing Message-ID: Mongolian throat singing is in the news. (http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=story&id=2015896486&) The OED has it as an alternative under the entry for "overtone singing," which seems to be the more general term, but you have to do an advanced search to find it. Inuit throat singing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_throat_singing), a different sort of singing is not in the OED. FWIW, according to "Throat Singing" on the Altaic Wiki (http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Throat+Singing), throat singing is practiced in eight different Altatic cultures. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 17:15:49 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:15:49 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131438.p7CJ00k6028646@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote > i don't know how this posting got so messed up. i suppose it's all decipherable -- but note that everything in the posting is a forward from Chris Ambidge, except for the last bit (below), which is from me: > > On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >> >> "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, >> glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these >> things are just lists of words and phrases. >> >> E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. >> >> it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. Following the lead for "In Living Color" here is a citation in 1990 from NewsBank Access World News: WHO'S THE JOKE ON, ANYWAY? DEBATING `IN LIVING COLOR' The Record (New Jersey) - Sunday, May 13, 1990 Author: By Virginia Mann, Record Television Critic: The Record Antoine, played by David Alan Grier, says he has just three words to describe actor Ralph Macchio: fab-u-lous. And Blaine, one of the many creations of gifted comic Damon Wayans, thinks Glenn Close is a man. Otherwise informed, he squeals, "Well, clutch the pearls. What a sneaky thing to do." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 17:42:52 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:42:52 -0700 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131413.p7DA05EL022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Fwd: pearl-clutching > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > from a friend who uses various versions of the expression and has for years:... to go along with the American black gay usage, here's a British example: oh glorious rapture, vertu has launched. (flash) the phones (called "instruments" in vertu-speak) are okay, but the real meat seems to be the one-touch vertu concierge: allows one to find theatre tickets, make reservations, or (assumably) order KFC. and, as promised, they are indeed clutch-the-pearls expensive: ?6000 to ?24000. golly. posted by patricking on Mar 27, 2002 http://www.metafilter.com/tags/british?page=3 this is about the (British-based) Vertu luxury mobile phones ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 18:01:17 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:01:17 -0400 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131716.p7CMKcvv022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is a citation in 1934 (probably) that may help to illuminate the genesis of the expression by providing a use of the phrase and the stylized gesture in a play. Title: Escape me never!: A play in three acts Author: Margaret Kennedy Publisher: W. Heinemann, ltd. Date: 1934 (Google Books snippet view; Not verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) [Extracted text from GB] The Butler enters, much dishevelled. Butler If you will excuse, my lady, there has been a thief. Lady M. [clutching her pearls] Good heavens! Butler A strange girl has been found in the Signorina's room. Sir Ivor A strange girl? http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=+dishevelled#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=clutching#search_anchor The same author a few years earlier in 1930 (probably) used the same scene. The 1934 (probably) play may be some kind of rewrite. Title: The fool of the family: continuing the story of Sanger's circus from "The constant nymph." Author: Margaret Kennedy Publisher: Doubleday, Doran, 1930 (Google Books snippet view; Not verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) [Extracted text from GB] "If you will excuse, my lady, there has been a thief." The goose shrieked and put a hand to her pearls to make sure that they were still there. "A strange girl has been found in Mademoiselle's room. If you will excuse, I will send for the police." "A strange girl? What strange girl? How did she get in?' "Please, I think she came with the schools. There have three schools come this afternoon. She has got in so." http://books.google.com/books?id=NdceAAAAMAAJ&q=pearls#search_anchor There is also a 1970 edition, so there is greater uncertainty about the real date. Title: The fool of the family. Author: Margaret Kennedy Publisher: London, Heinemann, 1970. On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: pearl-clutching > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Arnold Zwicky wrote >> i don't know how this posting got so messed up. i suppose it's all decipherable -- but note that everything in the posting is a forward from Chris Ambidge, except for the last bit (below), which is from me: >> >> On Aug 13, 2011, at 7:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >>> >>> "clutch the pearls" is in a few dictionaries of gay slang (in one, >>> glossed as 'gasp'), but of course without citations or datings; these >>> things are just lists of words and phrases. >>> >>> E. Patrick Johnson has a chapter on gay black discourse in Leap & Boellstorff (ed.), Speaking in Queer Tongues (2004), with several mentions of "clutch the pearls" (and the accompanying gesture) in this community. >>> >>> it also seems to have a history in the British gay cant Polari. > > Following the lead for "In Living Color" here is a citation in 1990 > from NewsBank Access World News: > > WHO'S THE JOKE ON, ANYWAY? DEBATING `IN LIVING COLOR' > The Record (New Jersey) - Sunday, May 13, 1990 > Author: By Virginia Mann, Record Television Critic: The Record > > Antoine, played by David Alan Grier, says he has just three words to > describe actor Ralph Macchio: fab-u-lous. And Blaine, one of the many > creations of gifted comic Damon Wayans, thinks Glenn Close is a man. > Otherwise informed, he squeals, "Well, clutch the pearls. What a > sneaky thing to do." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 13 18:13:10 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 11:13:10 -0700 Subject: Anna Siewierska Message-ID: has died: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/13/anna-siewierska/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 19:36:44 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:36:44 -0400 Subject: "all things + NP" Message-ID: CNN promises to keep you posted on "all things campaign politics." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 22:25:23 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 18:25:23 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108121620.p7CAlMVB022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > the benefit of _a_ doubt Not _the benefit of _the_ doubt" ? Is _the benefit of the doubt going the way of _on the average_ _hit the wall_ _in the zone_ _drive ? up the wall_ etc.? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sat Aug 13 22:43:35 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:43:35 -0700 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132226.p7DA05Mx022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >> the benefit of _a_ doubt > > Not > > _the benefit of _the_ doubt" > > ? > > Is > > _the benefit of the doubt > > going the way of > > _on the average_ > > _hit the wall_ > > _in the zone_ > > _drive ? up the wall_ > > etc.? > -- IMHO there are quite a few of these. The articles "a" and "the" are frequently indistinguishable in speech, meaning that people are necessarily going to reanalyze them. Another complicating factor is that in many cases, either article can be used: (She got) a/the chance, (There is) a/the risk of... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 23:08:22 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 19:08:22 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132243.p7DLOfBN022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's not that I wanted Wilson to have conniptions on the subject, but I actually debated with myself as to which article to put in. In the end, I decided it made no difference. If you don't like it, teach me something new... VS-) On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > On Aug 13, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > >> the benefit of _a_ doubt > > > > Not > > > > _the benefit of _the_ doubt" > > > > ? > > > > Is > > > > _the benefit of the doubt > > > > going the way of > > > > _on the average_ > > > > _hit the wall_ > > > > _in the zone_ > > > > _drive ? up the wall_ > > > > etc.? > > -- > > IMHO there are quite a few of these. > > The articles "a" and "the" are frequently indistinguishable in speech, > meaning that people are necessarily going to reanalyze them. > > Another complicating factor is that in many cases, either article can be > used: (She got) a/the chance, (There is) a/the risk of... > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 13 23:24:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 19:24:25 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132308.p7DLOfCP022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, get this. Ad for a local restaurant: "Peerless. "Big on Seafood. "FAMOUS at Steak. "Since 1938." Rationalize away, it still says "at." JL On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 7:08 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: more taboo avoidance > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's not that I wanted Wilson to have conniptions on the subject, but I > actually debated with myself as to which article to put in. In the end, I > decided it made no difference. If you don't like it, teach me something > new... > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett >wro= > te: > > > On Aug 13, 2011, at 3:25 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 12:20 PM, victor steinbok < > aardvark66 at gmail.com= > > > > wrote: > > >> the benefit of _a_ doubt > > > > > > Not > > > > > > _the benefit of _the_ doubt" > > > > > > ? > > > > > > Is > > > > > > _the benefit of the doubt > > > > > > going the way of > > > > > > _on the average_ > > > > > > _hit the wall_ > > > > > > _in the zone_ > > > > > > _drive =85 up the wall_ > > > > > > etc.? > > > -- > > > > IMHO there are quite a few of these. > > > > The articles "a" and "the" are frequently indistinguishable in speech, > > meaning that people are necessarily going to reanalyze them. > > > > Another complicating factor is that in many cases, either article can be > > used: (She got) a/the chance, (There is) a/the risk of... > > > > Benjamin Barrett > > Seattle, WA > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sun Aug 14 01:30:26 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:30:26 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: <201108130105.p7D151io026630@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: Searching Google for "rowlandson bartholomew fair" will turn up various versions of a plate by George Rowlandson from 1808 from a book; (perhaps earlier as a separate print). There is a ribbed contrivance in the lower left that my source says is a flying horses. Very likely, but none of the versions I can find are quite clear enough to show people riding it. Can't image what else it could be. though. On the right side of the print, in the middle distance, there is a ferris-wheel like ride, and in the foreground something like a carriage body on a swing. My source is Thomas M. Garrett's dissertation on pleasure gardens in NYC, up to 1865, p. 229, footnote. As for the Hogarth print, I have that in a fine large page collection of his etchings, published by Dover decades ago. There is a hallucinatory element to the print, which probably affects the representation of the flying horses. In particular, the ride is pretty high above the heads of the people, and would have required a very tall ladder to mount and dismount. Hard to suppose that a ride requiring that could be a paying proposition. Hogarth represents the horses as all facing outward, unlike modern merry-go-rounds, but perhaps the point of the ride was not the sense of a chase after the horse in front of you, but the view outward over the heads on the crowd & seeing the whole fair. There's a ride at Coney Island right now, one sort of like the revolving restaurants at the top of tall buildings, but without the bad meals. A large round room is slowing raised a hundred feet or so on a central column, rotated, and then lowered again. The point is the view, not any sense of giddiness from speedy movement. In any event, it seems that flying horses (the thing) existed from the early-mid 18th C, though the name is only found in the late 18th C. This also raises the question -- "begs the question", in modern parlance -- what was the Ferris wheel called, before Mr Ferris? Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late 1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? GAT On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > As Judith Anderson Stuart wrote [on another list], a 1721 print > containing a carousel with what could be called "flying horses" (they > are up in the air!) appears in the Wikipedia article "William Hogarth > - The South Sea Scheme". I wonder how true it is to (amusement?) > devices of the time. For example, I can't imagine it being > comfortable for country fair patrons to mount. And it reminds me more > of a device of torture (I assume that was intentional to > Hogarth?). There was, of course, "riding the horse", "riding the rail". > > Several points interest me, assuming this carousel is to some degree > true to life: > 1) If I am seeing the Wikipedia image correctly, this "Wheel Ride" > was turned by manpower via a bar extending through the axle on both sides > 2) There are definitely horses being ridden ... although I'm not > sure all the mounts are horses. > 3) The horses are not on chains, so they do not "fly" out as the wheel > turns. > > Joel > > At 8/12/2011 09:45 AM, John Dussinger wrote: > >> Postscript to my last: >> >> It just dawned on me (sorry Dawn!) that we can see these "flying >> horses" in Hogarth's "South Sea" print of 1721. The caption on top >> of the ride's post, "Who'l Ride," is similar to Lovelace's mimicry >> of the hawkers at the fair: "Who rides next! Who rides next!" >> Richardson may have had his friend's print in mind while >> categorizing libertines as gamblers destructive of the state. I wish >> that I could reproduce this print here. I have it hanging in my study. >> > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 14 02:51:17 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:51:17 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The Hogarth print is, I believe, intended as a satirical condemnation of the speculators and embezzlers of the circa 1720 South Sea Bubble (see, e.g., Wikipedia "South Sea Company"). My guess is that Hogarth turned the downward-pointing spokes of the fair ride into upward-pointing ones, and had the horses and therefore riders facing outward, iin order to construct a device of public display and humiliation, an analog to the stocks of medieval through early modern times. Face-to-face, in other words. (Thus Hogarth probably had no intention of creating a money-making device.) For the predecessors of Ferris wheels, going back to the 17th century (and for a couple of early illustrations), see Wikipedia's article "Ferris Wheels", "Early History". (It uses the term "pleasure wheels".) According to Wiki, they were "turned by strong men". Presumably the same motive force was used for the early "flying horses". (The Hogarth print shows a lever near the base, projecting out on both sides.) Joel At 8/13/2011 09:30 PM, George Thompson wrote: >Searching Google for "rowlandson bartholomew fair" will turn up various >versions of a plate by George Rowlandson from 1808 from a book; (perhaps >earlier as a separate print). There is a ribbed contrivance in the lower >left that my source says is a flying horses. Very likely, but none of the >versions I can find are quite clear enough to show people riding it. Can't >image what else it could be. though. >On the right side of the print, in the middle distance, there is a >ferris-wheel like ride, and in the foreground something like a carriage body >on a swing. > >My source is Thomas M. Garrett's dissertation on pleasure gardens in NYC, up >to 1865, p. 229, footnote. > >As for the Hogarth print, I have that in a fine large page collection of his >etchings, published by Dover decades ago. >There is a hallucinatory element to the print, which probably affects the >representation of the flying horses. In particular, the ride is pretty high >above the heads of the people, and would have required a very tall ladder to >mount and dismount. Hard to suppose that a ride requiring that could be a >paying proposition. >Hogarth represents the horses as all facing outward, unlike modern >merry-go-rounds, but perhaps the point of the ride was not the sense of a >chase after the horse in front of you, but the view outward over the heads >on the crowd & seeing the whole fair. There's a ride at Coney Island right >now, one sort of like the revolving restaurants at the top of tall >buildings, but without the bad meals. A large round room is slowing raised >a hundred feet or so on a central column, rotated, and then lowered again. > The point is the view, not any sense of giddiness from speedy movement. > >In any event, it seems that flying horses (the thing) existed from the >early-mid 18th C, though the name is only found in the late 18th C. >This also raises the question -- "begs the question", in modern parlance -- >what was the Ferris wheel called, before Mr Ferris? > >Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late >1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? > >GAT > >On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > As Judith Anderson Stuart wrote [on another list], a 1721 print > > containing a carousel with what could be called "flying horses" (they > > are up in the air!) appears in the Wikipedia article "William Hogarth > > - The South Sea Scheme". I wonder how true it is to (amusement?) > > devices of the time. For example, I can't imagine it being > > comfortable for country fair patrons to mount. And it reminds me more > > of a device of torture (I assume that was intentional to > > Hogarth?). There was, of course, "riding the horse", "riding the rail". > > > > Several points interest me, assuming this carousel is to some degree > > true to life: > > 1) If I am seeing the Wikipedia image correctly, this "Wheel Ride" > > was turned by manpower via a bar extending through the axle on both sides > > 2) There are definitely horses being ridden ... although I'm not > > sure all the mounts are horses. > > 3) The horses are not on chains, so they do not "fly" out as the wheel > > turns. > > > > Joel > > > > At 8/12/2011 09:45 AM, John Dussinger wrote: > > > >> Postscript to my last: > >> > >> It just dawned on me (sorry Dawn!) that we can see these "flying > >> horses" in Hogarth's "South Sea" print of 1721. The caption on top > >> of the ride's post, "Who'l Ride," is similar to Lovelace's mimicry > >> of the hawkers at the fair: "Who rides next! Who rides next!" > >> Richardson may have had his friend's print in mind while > >> categorizing libertines as gamblers destructive of the state. I wish > >> that I could reproduce this print here. I have it hanging in my study. > >> > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 04:28:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 00:28:04 -0400 Subject: more taboo avoidance In-Reply-To: <201108132243.p7DLOfBN022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > IMHO _IMHO_ is the entire point of my post. How could it be otherwise? After all, "Winstons taste good, _as_ a cigarette should," if that's what the speaker, in _his_ opinion, considers to be "correct." "Different strokes for different folks.";-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Sun Aug 14 08:07:54 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 09:07:54 +0100 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: George Thompson wrote > Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late > 1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? The earliest I have is this: 1931 Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisconsin) 3 Aug. "The current anonymous volume 'The Merry-Go-Round' ... pokes fun - not nice gentle fun - at our supposed mad round of reaching-for-the-brass-ring-existence." It's in my piece at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bra4.htm -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 10:15:41 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 06:15:41 -0400 Subject: "flying horses" depicted in 1721 In-Reply-To: <201108140808.p7DA05VZ022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > George Thompson wrote >> Is no one going to rummage about and find an earlier origin than the late >> 1930s of symbolically catching the brass ring? Michael Quinion wrote > The earliest I have is this: > > 1931 Daily Northwestern (Oshkosh, Wisconsin) 3 Aug. "The current anonymous > volume 'The Merry-Go-Round' ... pokes fun - not nice gentle fun - at our > supposed mad round of reaching-for-the-brass-ring-existence." > > It's in my piece at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bra4.htm The act of obtaining a "brass ring" is used symbolically to refer to winning a political nomination in the New York Times in 1924. The article is titled "Thirty Dark Horses March on New York" and the accompanying illustration depicts several potential presidential nominees who will be attending the Democratic National Convention. The candidates are on a merry-go-round and a donkey figure is holding a shining ring labeled with the word NOMINATION. The caption asks WHO GETS THE BRASS RING? The illustration can be viewed by following the link below and downloading the PDF from the New York Times archive. Cite: 1924 June 15, New York Times, Thirty Dark Horses March On New York by Silas Bent, Page XX1, New York. (New York Times online archive; also ProQuest) http://goo.gl/RfJmf http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70E17FC3D5B12738DDDAC0994DE405B848EF1D3 Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 11:40:29 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:40:29 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108061958.p76AmUea001968@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting food for shots and suds!" The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not spontaneous. So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of the syntax. It's nightmarish. JL On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The biggest problem I have with the Churchill quote is that it's > too absurdly optimistic. If he'd said "may be" instead of "will be," I'd > have no problem. > > I'm sure the context of the remark would have modified the sense somewhat > too. > > Hirschbein also seems to believe that the phrase "balance of terror" was > turned into "mutually assured destruction" because "terror" required a > euphemism to keep the public behind it. > > Like > > 1. "mutually assured destruction" (aka "MAD") isn't almost equally scary. > > 2. the professional users of such terms are so easily distracted that they > can't remember what they're really talking about. (I'm sure there were > some > Strangelove types, of course.) > > 3. "MAD" ousted "balance of terror" from the strategic lexicon. > > Of course the Defense Department (formerly the War Department) is always on > the lookout, like everybody else, for attractive euphemisms. But > Hirschbein's article presents something like a strong Worf-Sapir > hypothesis, apparently calculated by madmen to fool themselves and everyone > else, that makes everything worse than it is already. > > To continue my rant: he also ridicules the proverb, "If you wish for > peace, > prepare for war," by suggesting its absolute interchangeability with "If > you > wish for war, prepare for war." > > It's great when you can sum up war, peace, diplomacy,and MAD in a couple of > easy-to-remember slogans. Saves brain work. > > JL > > > > JL > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 12:24 PM, victor steinbok >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: victor steinbok > > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > BTW, Hirschbein's "plain English" is no substitute for Churchill's > > original. He simply failed to understand the quote that he based his > > whole hyperventilating tirade on. In that context, what's a little > > perversion of a common idiom! > > > > VS-) > > > > On 8/6/11, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ... > > > To show what I mean by "insane," here is the complete context: > > > > > > "[Winston Churchill said the following about the H-bomb and the policy > > > of "mutually assured destruction":] 'By a process of sublime irony, > [we] > > > have reached a state where safety will be the sturdy child of terror, > and > > > survival the twin brother of annihilation.' > > > > > > "Philosophers are a little touchy about language and logic: eloquence > > > is no substitute for dubious reasoning. In plain English, Churchill and > > the > > > others are saying: _To reduce the risk of nuclear war, the risk must be > > > increased_." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 11:57:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:57:34 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201107181841.p6IAkiqV005295@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But Jigs and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. (Verified on paper) [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The caption is given below.] "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on the stick with these real fat, real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. They're MOST! Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really made in the shade, and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" [The text above is corrected OCR but errors are difficult to avoid.] Cite: 1952 September 6, Collier's, [Cartoon by John Norment together with a short news item], Page 6, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. (Verified on paper) [Cartoon and caption are reprinted followed by a letter.] EDITOR: John Norment's recent Collier's cartoon of a bald-headed announcer reading a satirical radio commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes had radio station WKY, Oklahoma City, going round in circles. It started when WKY disk jockey Tom Paxton commented on the cartoon and read part of it on his show. The transmitter engineer, hearing a trade name, logged it as a commercial. The accounting department, on receipt of the log, tried to track down the "Hoffman" account so it could bill them. When no such account was located, Paxton was called on the carpet for giving an unauthorized commercial. He rescued himself by producing the cartoon. RAY SCALES, WKY & WKY-TV, Oklahoma City, Okla. Garson O'Toole wrote on July 18, 2011 >> I have extracted some more text from the Collier's in GB. Apparently, >> the word "nerd" appeared in an earlier issue of Collier's in a >> "cartoon of a bald-headed announcer reading a satirical radio >> commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes." ... Ben Zimmer wrote on July 18, 2011 > This is still chiefly relying on that Oct. 28, 1951 Newsweek article > on regional teen slang picked up by Reader's Digest and other > publications. Newsweek said that "frampton" was "Salt Lake's highest > accolade," while "nerd" was identified as Detroit slang. And > "pash-pie" is "a dream man or girl who is probably Most (sexy)" (in > Boston), so the Hoffman ad-writers seem to have misunderstood that > one. > > Newsweek had "fat" too: "Discussing cool and the degrees of coolness, > one boy reported: 'If you like a guy or gal, they're cool. If they are > real fat, real crazy, naturally they're real cool.'" I don't have my > slang dictionaries at hand, but I see Kipfer and Chapman cited this in > the entry for "fat" in their Dictionary of American Slang, and it also > shows up in OED's "cool" entry. > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 14:03:47 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:03:47 -0700 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141140.p7EB0krC031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting > food for shots and suds!" > > The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not > spontaneous. > > So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of > the syntax. It's nightmarish. this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: >we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); and much much more. oi. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 14:28:14 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:28:14 -0400 Subject: stealed Message-ID: A guest commentator on NPR just said thats omebody's complaining that Google has "stealed their search engine." This is the second time in recent weeks that I've heard someone with a college degree say "stealed" for "stolen" or perhaps even "stole." I'm pretty sure it wasn't the same guy. Be that as it may, neither had a foreign (of course I mean "international") accent. Memories decay, but I can't claim that I saw "stealed" more than once or twice in twenty-five years of university teaching. And I never heard anyone say it. But since unpleasant memories are less likely to decay, and words are my business, that's undoubtedly true. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 14 15:04:22 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:04:22 -0400 Subject: a blend for Jerry (and anyone else who collects them) Message-ID: at least I think it's likely to be a blend. My wife is a librarian and reports that when she turned over the stack of books a six-year-old girl was checking out to get to the barcode and passed them back to her that way, the girl objected: "I want them upside-side up!" (Presumably = "right-side-up" influenced by "upside-down".) Lots of hits on google, including "Upside Up Productions", although I can't remember ever hearing it in the wild. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 15:12:54 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:12:54 +0000 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Arnold Zwicky To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting > food for shots and suds!" > > The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not > spontaneous. > > So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of > the syntax. It's nightmarish. this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: >we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); and much much more. oi. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 14 15:14:23 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:14:23 -0400 Subject: stealed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 10:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > A guest commentator on NPR just said thats omebody's complaining that Google > has "stealed their search engine." > > This is the second time in recent weeks that I've heard someone with a > college degree say "stealed" for "stolen" or perhaps even "stole." > > I'm pretty sure it wasn't the same guy. Be that as it may, neither had a > foreign (of course I mean "international") accent. > > Memories decay, but I can't claim that I saw "stealed" more than once or > twice in twenty-five years of university teaching. And I never heard anyone > say it. > Maybe it's from people hearing and misinterpreting "He steeled himself for the verdict" and such? (Only half-joking.) But I guess paradigm regularization has to start with someone and maybe these folks are saying, as in the folksong, "Let it begin with me" (although the reference there was to peace on earth rather than paradigm leveling). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 15:29:28 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:29:28 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141513.p7EB0kuO031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution reversal is inflated? I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a difference. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ron Butters > Subject: Re: More on substituting > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Arnold Zwicky > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting >> food for shots and suds!" >> >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not >> spontaneous. >> >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); > > and much much more. oi. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 15:31:45 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:31:45 +0000 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: I doubt that most people do even noticed. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Dan Goncharoff To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 11:29:28 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution reversal is inflated? I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a difference. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Ron Butters > Subject: Re: More on substituting > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Arnold Zwicky > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, substituting >> food for shots and suds!" >> >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and not >> spontaneous. >> >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" of >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often you rant about them.)< > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the party"); > > and much much more. oi. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sun Aug 14 15:26:10 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:26:10 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201108141157.p7EAlUb9026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the > word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary > items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I > also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared > with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. > > Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John > Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But > Jigs and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. > (Verified on paper) > > [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of > typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. > Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The > caption is given below.] > > "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on > the stick with these real fat, real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't > be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about > Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. > They're MOST! Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big > tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really made in the > shade, and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a > Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has > it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is > reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd > ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" [...] Thanks to Garson for tracking this down. For anyone keeping score, here are the earliest known examples of "nerd" (disregarding Dr. Seuss's use of the word in "If I Ran the Zoo," which appeared in shortened form in _Redbook_ in July 1950 before being published in book form later that year). Items in _The Age_, _Reader's Digest_, and _Collier's_ all draw their teen slang terms directly from _Newsweek_, while the _Herald-Press_ article is a bit more wide-ranging: --- 1951 _Newsweek_ 8 Oct. 28 In Detroit, someone who once would be called a drip or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe case, a scurve. 1951 _The Age_ (Melbourne, Australia) 11 Oct. 4 ("U.S. Teen-agers Talk a 'Cool, Shafty' Language") Teenagers in New York, Chicago, New Orleans and Los Angeles who resort to such passe expressions are mere peasants or "nerds.?... Such lowly "nerds" in other cities may on occasion be hailed by acquaintances, with, "Hey, nosebleed." http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=k8dVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IcQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5372,4309418 1952 _Reader?s Digest_ Jan. 57 In Detroit, someone who once would have been called a drip or a square is now a nerd, or in a less severe case a scurve. 1952 _Collier?s_ 2 Feb. 39 (cartoon by John Norment, featuring radio DJ reading a fictitious ad for "Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes") Don't be a party-pooper or a nerd. 1952 _Herald-Press_ (St. Joseph, Mich.) 23 June 14 (?To 'Clue Ya' To Be 'George' And Not A 'Nerd' Or 'Scurve'?) If the patois throws you, you're definitely not in the know, because anyone who is not a nerd (drip) knows that the bug is the family car. --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 16:03:39 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:03:39 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108131604.p7CMKcsf022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Likely the best-known example of overtone singing is the Gyuto Order of Tibetan Tantric monks whose "music" has been marketed by Mickey Hart. Wiki also mentions that the style is identified as "chordal chanting". "Chordal" is in the OED, but no mention is made of chanting, which is quite different from the other "chordal" references (string instruments). The OED entry for "overtone singing" (which also subsumes "overtone chant" and "overtone chanting") has a slight geographic overstatement: "traditional esp. in Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia" That's like saying, "India, Indonesia and adjacent parts of Southeast Asia" or "Norway, Italy and adjacent parts of Western Europe". At issue may be the distinction between two traditional designations. The Soviet and post-Soviet political designation only ascribes to Central Asia the former Soviet "-stans"--Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. The broader UNESCO definition includes northern parts of Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, a small bit of India (Kashmir), the Sub-Ural part of Russia (literally adjacent to Kazakhstan, running down along the Chinese border, south of Taiga), Mongolia and a rather substantial part of Western and Central China, including Tibet. Tibet (and Kashmir, I suppose) is the only one of these that stands out as the location of a very distant culture and group of languages, compared to all the others (although there is a mix of Muslims, Buddhists and "animists" among the rest). Whatever the case, Mongolia covers the Northeast of the UNESCO-defined region and Tibet the Southeast, they are not adjacent to each other, making the adjacency claim very odd, from my perspective. By UN definition, which follows largely the Soviet division, they are not even a part of Central Asia at all. And, to make matters worse, the practice of overtone singing stretches almost continuously across nearly the entire Asian part of Russia, across the Behring Straights into Alaska and Canada. So, the OED definition is both overstating and understating the conditions. VS-) On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Mongolian throat singing is in the news. = > ( > http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=3Dstory&id=3D2015= > 896486&) > > The OED has it as an alternative under the entry for "overtone singing," = > which seems to be the more general term, but you have to do an advanced = > search to find it. > > Inuit throat singing = > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_throat_singing), a different sort of = > singing is not in the OED. > > FWIW, according to "Throat Singing" on the Altaic Wiki = > (http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Throat+Singing), throat singing is = > practiced in eight different Altatic cultures. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA= ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 16:05:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:05:08 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141529.p7EAlUrM024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dan, I could not have said it better. JL On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > reversal is inflated? > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > difference. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Ron Butters > > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares > and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly > stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > > > ------Original Message------ > > From: Arnold Zwicky > > To: > > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > > > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, > substituting > >> food for shots and suds!" > >> > >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and > not > >> spontaneous. > >> > >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" > of > >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD > "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is > no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > > > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times > since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so > it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, > how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how > you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often > you rant about them.)< > > > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of > a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is > already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the > variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think > that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, > they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make > it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to > dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on > seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the > party"); > > > > and much much more. oi. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 16:45:41 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 16:45:41 +0000 Subject: More on substituting Message-ID: Well, the reversal does not "completely miss communicate information." It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting Dan, I could not have said it better. JL On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > reversal is inflated? > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > difference. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Ron Butters > > Subject: Re: More on substituting > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares > and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems particularly > stupid coming from an alleged linguist. > > > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > > > ------Original Message------ > > From: Arnold Zwicky > > To: > > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 7:03:47 AM GMT-0700 > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 4:40 AM, Jon Lighter wrote: > > > >> Fox News reports that workers at the Ground Zero site have been getting > >> drunk on their lunch hour, "taking lunchtime at the local pub, > substituting > >> food for shots and suds!" > >> > >> The line, as part of a quick news summary, was evidently scripted and > not > >> spontaneous. > >> > >> So ol am I that even though I get the idea, I still can't "make sense" > of > >> the syntax. It's nightmarish. > > > > this is a return to the topic of reversed "substitute" ("substitute" OLD > "for" NEW), branching off from the possibly related topic of PREFERRED "is > no substitute for" DISPREFERRED. as i said here only four months ago: > > > >> we've had this discussion (often at length) on this list several times > since 2004, and i posted a compact account on Language Log in 2007. (so > it's not really helpful or informative to tell the list again, and again, > how much you *hate* "innovative substitute" or "reversed substitute", how > you can't understand them, etc. they're not going away, no matter how often > you rant about them.)< > > > > i really don't see the point of people's bringing up every occurrence of > a variant they just hate, when this variant is not an inadvertent error, is > already widespread, and is spreading further, and especially when the > variant is been discussed many times on this list. do people really think > that if they complain about every occurrence that comes to their attention, > they'll convince others to stop using the variant -- that ranting will make > it go away? especially, do people *on this list* (devoted as it is to > dialects and variation) think that way? (peevers and word-ragers and so on > seem to think this is so, but people on this list?) > > > > if so, we can expect avalanches of sightings of: > > > > "of"-marked exceptional degree modification ("too big of a dog"); > > > > nominative conjoined objects ("between you and I"); > > > > double "is" (Isis) ("The problem is is that ..."); > > > > intensifying "literally" ("I was literally out of my mind"); > > > > speaker-oriented (sentence modifier) "hopefully"; > > > > WH+"that" complements ("I wonder how many people that were at the > party"); > > > > and much much more. oi. > > > > arnold > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 17:22:33 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:22:33 -0700 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141645.p7EB0kx8031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > Well, the reversal does not [completely miscommunicate information]. It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. what we're confronting here is a phenomenon i've called (on Language Log) "intransigence". Goncharoff and Lighter have their own variety of English, in which reversed "substitute" has no place. so they're insisting on understanding other people's varieties in terms of their own, disregarding other people's clear intent -- essentially, intransigently *refusing* to understand. (this is uncooperative and inconsiderate as well as silly -- especially silly when the usage seems to be spreading fast in the U.S., in contexts well beyond its original British sporting context.) (i don't *use* reversed "substitute" myself, but, like any reasonably cooperative person, i've figured out how to understand it.) The Goncharoff-Lighter (and, earlier, Berson) objection to reversed "substitute" is the same as the objection to "double negation" as involving people's saying the opposite of what they mean, which mavkes it look like willful pig-ignorance. > > ------Original Message------ > From: Jonathan Lighter > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > Dan, I could not have said it better. > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: More on substituting >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution >> reversal is inflated? >> >> I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing >> process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it >> completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about >> any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a >> difference. potential ambiguity is part of what you're complaining about -- the very complaint leveled against some of the items on my list (most famously, "literally" and "hopefully"). (some of the others are labeled pleonastic. but the peeve literature labels all of them as simply ungrammatical, and some writers then go on to say that that makes them incomprehensible.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 17:27:49 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:27:49 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141645.p7EAlUwO024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There appear to be multiple levels of miscommunication in the latest development on this thread. JL noted a reversal that upsets him because he thinks it fails to communicate the desired meaning--in fact, in standard interpretation, it says the opposite (hence, reversal). AZ is annoyed (mildly?) at the repetition of people expressing pet peeves about subjects that have been previously covered and rehashed (in this case, anywhere from 4 to 6 years ago). DG comes up suggesting that this is not simply a complaint about usage--that would indeed be quite ordinary--but about the non-standard usage that's seeped into formally edited materials, i.e., it has been tacitly accepted as standard. Thus the observation is not of new usage but of a new level of spread. Some may find this to be a more significant fact that others. Feel free to correct my observation above if I got any part of it wrong. However, RB goes beyond annoyance and throws insults embedded into a one-liner--a practice that he normally condemns. There is a difference about asking to avoid repetitions and referring to someone as an "alleged linguist"--a difference that a linguist should be able to appreciate. What may come through as annoyance or dissatisfaction in a longer email becomes amplified in a short message sent from a "smart" phone. This technology appears to have made it easier for people to become thoughtless, clumsy and offensive. If a suggestion to avoid one-liners on the list is reasonable (and I am certainly guilty of my share of one-liners), doing so on a phone should be doubly so--the standard mental filters often fail because the response time is shortened significantly. So, my recommendation to Ron--and others--is to avoid sending quick responses via smart phones unless they are directly on-topic (DG's message was constructive, in contrast). It will help to tone down overheated rhetoric and certainly will not detract from the flow of the discussion. VS-) PS: I am not a linguist and don't allege to be one, thus the comment would not be insulting if it were addressed to me--it would not apply at all. However, it was /not/ addressed to me. And, I believe, that comment was uncalled for. [RB: Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems *particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist*.] <-- Emphasis added. PPS: One other practice that RB has objected to in the past--in association with all the other complaints--was someone supporting a comment made earlier (presumably without any actual supporting evidence, just an expression of raw opinion). The comment quoted above falls into this category as well--in other words, RB has violated not one, but at least three principle he has previously espoused. On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Ron Butters wrote: Well, the reversal does not "completely miss communicate information." It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting Dan, I could not have said it better. JL On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > reversal is inflated? > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > difference. > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 17:39:54 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:39:54 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201108141157.p7EAlUb9026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Garson O'Toole > Subject: ? ? ? Re: "nerd" etymythology > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the > word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary > items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I > also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared > with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. > > Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John > Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But > Jig[g]s and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. > (Verified on paper) > > [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of > typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. > Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The > caption is given below.] > > "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on > the stick with these real _fat_ _P.H.A.T.T._ is still being misspelled, I see. A WAG: _fat_ was given an artificial reanalysis in order to prevent its sounding like an insult, when it was applied to girls. real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't > be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about > Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. > They're _MOST_ And not "_the_ MOST"? > Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big > tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really _made in the shade_ An unusual use, IME. > and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a > Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has > it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is > reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd > ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" > > [The text above is corrected OCR but errors are difficult to avoid.] > > > Cite: 1952 September 6, Collier's, [Cartoon by John Norment together > with a short news item], Page 6, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. (Verified on > paper) > > [Cartoon and caption are reprinted followed by a letter.] > > EDITOR: John Norment's recent Collier's cartoon of a bald-headed > announcer reading a satirical radio commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age > Clothes had radio station WKY, Oklahoma City, going round in circles. > > It started when WKY disk jockey Tom Paxton commented on the cartoon > and read part of it on his show. The transmitter engineer, hearing a > trade name, logged it as a commercial. The accounting department, on > receipt of the log, tried to track down the "Hoffman" account so it > could bill them. When no such account was located, Paxton was called > on the carpet for giving an unauthorized commercial. > > He rescued himself by producing the cartoon. > > RAY SCALES, WKY & WKY-TV, Oklahoma City, Okla. > > > Garson O'Toole wrote on July 18, 2011 >>> I have extracted some more text from the Collier's in GB. Apparently, >>> the word "nerd" appeared in an earlier issue of Collier's in a >>> "cartoon of a bald-headed announcer reading a satirical radio >>> commercial on Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes." > ... > > Ben Zimmer wrote on July 18, 2011 >> This is still chiefly relying on that Oct. 28, 1951 Newsweek article >> on regional teen slang picked up by Reader's Digest and other >> publications. Newsweek said that "frampton" was "Salt Lake's highest >> accolade," while "nerd" was identified as Detroit slang. And >> "pash-pie" is "a dream man or girl who is probably Most (sexy)" (in >> Boston), so the Hoffman ad-writers seem to have misunderstood that >> one. >> >> Newsweek had "fat" too: "Discussing cool and the degrees of coolness, >> one boy reported: 'If you like a guy or gal, they're cool. If they are >> real fat, real crazy, naturally they're real cool.'" I don't have my >> slang dictionaries at hand, but I see Kipfer and Chapman cited this in >> the entry for "fat" in their Dictionary of American Slang, and it also >> shows up in OED's "cool" entry. >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 17:52:18 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:52:18 -0400 Subject: Tomming Message-ID: For once, I want to mention something that IS in the OED: Tom v.: [1963-1976] > 2. intr. [ < Tom n.1 1f] To behave in an ingratiating and servile way to > someone of another (esp. white) race. Also to tom it (up) . U.S. slang. > The reason I wanted to mention it is because of a passage in a blog post earlier in the week: http://prospect.org/csnc/blogs/adam_serwer_archive?month=08&year=2011&base_name=not_tomming Being black and criticizing Obama is not inherently "tomming," any more than > it is to support the president despite his failures. Tomming involves > deliberately advancing the arguments of the community's dectractors [sic] in > a bid for approval, it doesn't apply to people who, whatever you think of > the merits of their argument, ultimately have the best interests of the > community in mind. This kind of thing weakens the merits of one's argument, > it doesn't make it stronger. > Do we now need an entry for "tomming"? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 17:54:26 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:54:26 -0700 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141727.p7EAlU1A024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 10:27 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > There appear to be multiple levels of miscommunication in the latest > development on this thread. JL noted a reversal that upsets him because he > thinks it fails to communicate the desired meaning--in fact, in standard > interpretation, it says the opposite (hence, reversal). AZ is annoyed > (mildly?) at the repetition of people expressing pet peeves about subjects > that have been previously covered and rehashed (in this case, anywhere from > 4 to 6 years ago). i am annoyed (significantly) at several levels. getting pet peeves about subjects that have been repeatedly covered here is the least of it. worse is getting them again and again from the same people on the same subject, as if each fresh example the writers come across is a fresh insult to them. much worse is the basis for the complaint -- that people are "saying the opposite of what they mean"; that was the main point in my posting before this one. finally, it's hugely annoying that people on this list, who should know better, toss off such complaints. > DG comes up suggesting that this is not simply a > complaint about usage--that would indeed be quite ordinary--but about the > non-standard usage that's seeped into formally edited materials, i.e., it > has been tacitly accepted as standard. Thus the observation is not of new > usage but of a new level of spread. Some may find this to be a more > significant fact that others. reversed "substitute" seems to be getting to the point that intensifying "literally" and speaker-oriented "hopefully" got to some time ago, when they began appearing in edited text. the outcry gets serious at that point -- and the outcry rarely has any impact (these two are now standard variants). but it's a sign of change in progress. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 18:07:08 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:07:08 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108141754.p7EB0k1e031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ... > reversed "substitute" seems to be getting to the point that intensifying > "literally" and speaker-oriented "hopefully" got to some time ago, when they > began appearing in edited text. the outcry gets serious at that point -- > and the outcry rarely has any impact (these two are now standard variants). > but it's a sign of change in progress. > > arnold > We always notice, of course, the cases where such complaints had no long-term effect. Are there any that might have had an effect? Or is it a guarantee that once a "undesirable" (by the "elites") expression enters colloquially, it will soon become standard? Final point--complaining about people expressing language-related pet-peeves is about as likely to succeed as those peeved complaints themselves. I doubt it's a worthwhile cause for a prolonged battle--at least, in this venue. Even if you think that those who are peeved should know better. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 14 18:30:57 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:30:57 -0700 Subject: pearl-clutching In-Reply-To: <201108131801.p7DA05IB022358@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 13, 2011, at 11:01 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Here is a citation in 1934 (probably) that may help to illuminate the > genesis of the expression by providing a use of the phrase and the > stylized gesture in a play. > > Title: Escape me never!: A play in three acts > Author: Margaret Kennedy > Publisher: W. Heinemann, ltd. > Date: 1934 > (Google Books snippet view; Not verified on paper; Data may be inaccurate) > > [Extracted text from GB] > The Butler enters, much dishevelled. > Butler If you will excuse, my lady, there has been a thief. > Lady M. [clutching her pearls] Good heavens! > Butler A strange girl has been found in the Signorina's room. > Sir Ivor A strange girl? > > http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=+dishevelled#search_anchor > http://books.google.com/books?id=62fXr9nL1tcC&q=clutching#search_anchor > > The same author a few years earlier in 1930 (probably) used the same > scene. The 1934 (probably) play may be some kind of rewrite... lovely. though i'm not sure if this should count as two occurrences rather than one. but we've got a stage use for horror, surprise, or distress: dramatic, extravagant, histronic -- and feminine. that would get us to extravagant gay male uses, playing with gender roles. in any case: U.S. black usage, British and Canadian white usage. i'll ask around on the lgbt Facebook group for other usage. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 14 21:29:26 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:29:26 -0700 Subject: Lionized Message-ID: As expected, the recent release of Lion, the new Mac OS, has resulted in a slew of uses of "lionization." What will be interesting is if the word catches on in regular parlance or undergoes a shift in meaning. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 14 21:39:06 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 17:39:06 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just to set the record straight: 1. I have never objected to one-liners. I have objected to one-liners that are devoid of content, merely phatic, and contribute nothing to the topic. 2. My purpose was not so much to complain about repetition (though I agree with Arnold) as to condemn the mindless, and linguistically ridiculous, practice of bemoaning solecisms, slips of the tongue and pen, and changes in the language--especially when one does so in the inflated language of anguish and "nightmare." 3. I don't remember ever announcing a "principle" that holds that every opinion must be substantiated with "actual supporting evidence," and I'm not sure what sort of "supporting evidence" is needed to document that hand-wringing (and perhaps pearl-clutching as well) about usage is not in accord with accepted scientific principles. I would like to add, though, that it does not seem at all clear that the "substitution reversal" in the passage that JL cited represents a belief on the part of people at Fox News that "substitute" functions syntactically like "replace." The reversal is very much in the manner of a slip of the tongue, and (as I noted earlier) there is no reason to believe that hearers would not pretty much subconsciously interpret the utterance in the sense that was intended, rather than the nonsensical reading that gives JL nightmares. Maybe the alternative is worth some consideration, though I imagine that Arnold has given it some thought. On Aug 14, 2011, at 1:26 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > There appear to be multiple levels of miscommunication in the latest development on this thread. JL noted a reversal that upsets him because he thinks it fails to communicate the desired meaning--in fact, in standard interpretation, it says the opposite (hence, reversal). AZ is annoyed (mildly?) at the repetition of people expressing pet peeves about subjects that have been previously covered and rehashed (in this case, anywhere from 4 to 6 years ago). DG comes up suggesting that this is not simply a complaint about usage--that would indeed be quite ordinary--but about the non-standard usage that's seeped into formally edited materials, i.e., it has been tacitly accepted as standard. Thus the observation is not of new usage but of a new level of spread. Some may find this to be a more significant fact that others. > > Feel free to correct my observation above if I got any part of it wrong. > > However, RB goes beyond annoyance and throws insults embedded into a one-liner--a practice that he normally condemns. There is a difference about asking to avoid repetitions and referring to someone as an "alleged linguist"--a difference that a linguist should be able to appreciate. What may come through as annoyance or dissatisfaction in a longer email becomes amplified in a short message sent from a "smart" phone. This technology appears to have made it easier for people to become thoughtless, clumsy and offensive. If a suggestion to avoid one-liners on the list is reasonable (and I am certainly guilty of my share of one-liners), doing so on a phone should be doubly so--the standard mental filters often fail because the response time is shortened significantly. So, my recommendation to Ron--and others--is to avoid sending quick responses via smart phones unless they are directly on-topic (DG's message was constructive, in contrast). It will help to tone down overheated rhetoric and certainly will not detract from the flow of the discussion. > > VS-) > > PS: I am not a linguist and don't allege to be one, thus the comment would not be insulting if it were addressed to me--it would not apply at all. However, it was /not/ addressed to me. And, I believe, that comment was uncalled for. > > [RB: Thanks for this, Arnold. And all the inflated rhetoric about nightmares and the lack of intelligibility of supposed "errors" seems *particularly stupid coming from an alleged linguist*.] <-- Emphasis added. > > PPS: One other practice that RB has objected to in the past--in association with all the other complaints--was someone supporting a comment made earlier (presumably without any actual supporting evidence, just an expression of raw opinion). The comment quoted above falls into this category as well--in other words, RB has violated not one, but at least three principle he has previously espoused. > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Ron Butters wrote: > > Well, the reversal does not "completely miss communicate information." It takes next to no thought whatever to understand the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if there were editors) did not notice the reversal. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: Jonathan Lighter > To: > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > Dan, I could not have said it better. > > JL > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > > reversal is inflated? > > > > I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > > process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > > completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > > any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > > difference. > > > > Sent from my iPhone ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 14 22:48:40 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:48:40 -0400 Subject: stiff, adv. (antedating) Message-ID: OED has "scared stiff" as the earliest such collocation (1905). 1878 _Daily Constitution_ (Atlanta) (Dec. 29) (unp.) (NewspaperArchive): Then Henry ripped out a signal of distress that scared the baby stiff as a telegraph pole. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 00:33:04 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:33:04 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too can understand reversed substitute where the reversal and intended meaning are obvious. But a reversed substitute in a mathematical or computer programming context can lead to deaths. Joel At 8/14/2011 01:22 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > > > > Well, the reversal does not [completely miscommunicate > information]. It takes next to no thought whatever to understand > the utterance in question, which is probably why the editors ( if > there were editors) did not notice the reversal. > >what we're confronting here is a phenomenon i've called (on Language >Log) "intransigence". Goncharoff and Lighter have their own variety >of English, in which reversed "substitute" has no place. so they're >insisting on understanding other people's varieties in terms of >their own, disregarding other people's clear intent -- essentially, >intransigently *refusing* to understand. (this is uncooperative and >inconsiderate as well as silly -- especially silly when the usage >seems to be spreading fast in the U.S., in contexts well beyond its >original British sporting context.) > >(i don't *use* reversed "substitute" myself, but, like any >reasonably cooperative person, i've figured out how to understand it.) > >The Goncharoff-Lighter (and, earlier, Berson) objection to reversed >"substitute" is the same as the objection to "double negation" as >involving people's saying the opposite of what they mean, which >mavkes it look like willful pig-ignorance. > > > > > ------Original Message------ > > From: Jonathan Lighter > > To: > > Date: Sunday, August 14, 2011 12:05:08 PM GMT-0400 > > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] More on substituting > > > > Dan, I could not have said it better. > > > > JL > > > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dan Goncharoff > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff > >> Subject: Re: More on substituting > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Do you really think the lack of intelligibility of a substitution > >> reversal is inflated? > >> > >> I am shocked that a substitution reversal could survive an editing > >> process, not because it is grammatically incorrect but because it > >> completely miscommunicates information. That could not be said about > >> any of the other items on Arnold's list. A distinction with a > >> difference. > >potential ambiguity is part of what you're complaining about -- the >very complaint leveled against some of the items on my list (most >famously, "literally" and "hopefully"). > >(some of the others are labeled pleonastic. but the peeve >literature labels all of them as simply ungrammatical, and some >writers then go on to say that that makes them incomprehensible.) > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 01:08:12 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 21:08:12 -0400 Subject: More on substituting In-Reply-To: <201108150033.p7EB0kBs031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 8:33 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Goncharoff and Lighter have their own variety >>of English, in which reversed "substitute" has no place. ? so they're >>insisting on understanding other people's varieties in terms of >>their own, disregarding other people's clear intent -- essentially, >>intransigently *refusing* to understand. (this is uncooperative and >>inconsiderate as well as silly -- especially silly when the usage >>seems to be spreading fast in the U.S., in contexts well beyond its >>original British sporting context.) Be that as it may, I agree with Goncharoff and Lighter. If that usage is spreading, then that's too bad for us. IAC, as the Russians say, "Privychka svyshe nam dana." We don't have to like it, but, as is the case with any other trivial-but-sucking aspect of life, we'll have to deal. Nevertheless, WTF is wrong with substituting "May I ask you a question?" for "I have a question" ? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 02:19:09 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:19:09 -0700 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108141603.p7EAlUuW024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva Republic Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia Nanai people: Russia, China I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but their geographic description sounds reasonable to me. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 14, 2011, at 9:03 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > The OED entry for "overtone singing" (which also subsumes "overtone chant" > and "overtone chanting") has a slight geographic overstatement: > > "traditional esp. in Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia" > > That's like saying, "India, Indonesia and adjacent parts of Southeast Asia" > or "Norway, Italy and adjacent parts of Western Europe". At issue may be the > distinction between two traditional designations. The Soviet and post-Soviet > political designation only ascribes to Central Asia the former Soviet > "-stans"--Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. > The broader UNESCO definition includes northern parts of Afghanistan, Iran, > Pakistan, a small bit of India (Kashmir), the Sub-Ural part of Russia > (literally adjacent to Kazakhstan, running down along the Chinese border, > south of Taiga), Mongolia and a rather substantial part of Western and > Central China, including Tibet. Tibet (and Kashmir, I suppose) is the only > one of these that stands out as the location of a very distant culture and > group of languages, compared to all the others (although there is a mix of > Muslims, Buddhists and "animists" among the rest). Whatever the case, > Mongolia covers the Northeast of the UNESCO-defined region and Tibet the > Southeast, they are not adjacent to each other, making the adjacency claim > very odd, from my perspective. By UN definition, which follows largely the > Soviet division, they are not even a part of Central Asia at all. And, to > make matters worse, the practice of overtone singing stretches almost > continuously across nearly the entire Asian part of Russia, across the > Behring Straights into Alaska and Canada. So, the OED definition is both > overstating and understating the conditions. > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:04 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> Mongolian throat singing is in the news. = >> ( >> http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=3Dstory&id=3D2015= >> 896486&) >> >> The OED has it as an alternative under the entry for "overtone singing," = >> which seems to be the more general term, but you have to do an advanced = >> search to find it. >> >> Inuit throat singing = >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_throat_singing), a different sort of = >> singing is not in the OED. >> >> FWIW, according to "Throat Singing" on the Altaic Wiki = >> (http://altaic-wiki.wikispaces.com/Throat+Singing), throat singing is = >> practiced in eight different Altatic cultures. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 02:40:24 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:40:24 -0700 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) Message-ID: I don't see tsuyu in the OED. "Soup" seems to be a common way to referring to this. I think that's what the waiter in the pseudo-Japanese restaurant responded with when I asked for tsuyu and he didn't know the word. 1. The earliest I see on Google Books for "tsuyu" as dipping broth is 1914, though the authors seem to confuse tsuyu (?? or ?) "broth, dipping broth" and tsuyu "dew" (?). The world's story: a history of the world in story, song and art, ed. by Eva March Tappan (Google eBook)) (http://ow.ly/63121) Karl Julius Ploetz, Horatio Willis Dresser Houghton Mifflin company ----- Then comes the first "honorable" table, a small lacquered tray with lacquered blows upon it, containing a covered basin of tsuyu-soup--the "honorable dew"--a little pot of soy, a gilded platter with various sweet and aromatic condiments upon it, and some wonderful vegetables, environing some fairy cutlets of salmon. ----- 2. The next occurrence jumps to 1964: The East, Volumes 1-3, East Publications, Inc., page 38 (http://ow.ly/630VM) ----- _Udon_ and _soba_ can be bought in most food stores in Japan, so one need only know how to prepare the soup, or _tsuyu_: Dried bonito flakes... ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 02:59:52 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:59:52 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150219.p7EB0kEG031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's quite obvious that the Altaic-wiki includes neither Inuit nor Tibetan overtone chant/singing--an exclusion that may well be acceptable for a site dedicated to Altaic issues, but not for overtone singing in general. Both Tibetan and Inuit distributions are significant and the OED entry was for "overtone singing", not "throat singing". That's the incomplete part. On the other hand, I find it somewhat difficult to see something that is adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet, since they are not exactly next to each other. Mongolia is north of Central China and Tibet is southwest of China (mostly--parts of former Tibet region are absorbed in southern Chinese provinces). The only region that's adjacent to both is Xinjiang (on opposite ends) and if Uighurs don't practice overtone singing, then the OED definition is just wrong, not merely incomplete or questionable (although there are more than just Uighurs in Xinjiang--Kazakhs dominate the northern region). The rest of the overtone-singing region may be vaguely adjacent to Mongolia (in a somewhat odd sort of way--minus the Inuit), but certainly not to Tibet. VS-) On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat > singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: > > Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China > Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva Republic > Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai > Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China > Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia > Nanai people: Russia, China > > I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but their > geographic description sounds reasonable to me. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 03:02:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 23:02:48 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108051536.p75AlXUs008818@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Going in the other direction, in the just finished (season-final) episode of Leverage (TNT), the final scene included a comment about "friends with bennies". Thought I should mention it in this context. VS-) On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > > On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > >> > > >> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to > > >> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with > > >> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at > > >> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of > > >> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be > > >> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. > > >> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): > > >> > > >> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an > > >> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell > > >> of a catch), with a lot to offer. > > >> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in > > >> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring > > >> and summer ... I realized I was missing the > > >> special guy to share the good times with. You > > >> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... > > > > > > But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual > > > partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the > > > advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also > > > a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on > > > occasion. > > > > > That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A > > speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of > > euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". > > That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the > Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 > mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. > Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a > personal ad from 11/28/96: > > http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de > > Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: > > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c > > --bgz > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 03:13:31 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:13:31 -0700 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150300.p7EAlUYs024899@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it a different type of singing? Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 14, 2011, at 7:59 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > It's quite obvious that the Altaic-wiki includes neither Inuit nor Tibetan > overtone chant/singing--an exclusion that may well be acceptable for a site > dedicated to Altaic issues, but not for overtone singing in general. Both > Tibetan and Inuit distributions are significant and the OED entry was for > "overtone singing", not "throat singing". That's the incomplete part. On the > other hand, I find it somewhat difficult to see something that is adjacent > to Mongolia and Tibet, since they are not exactly next to each other. > Mongolia is north of Central China and Tibet is southwest of China > (mostly--parts of former Tibet region are absorbed in southern Chinese > provinces). The only region that's adjacent to both is Xinjiang (on opposite > ends) and if Uighurs don't practice overtone singing, then the OED > definition is just wrong, not merely incomplete or questionable (although > there are more than just Uighurs in Xinjiang--Kazakhs dominate the northern > region). The rest of the overtone-singing region may be vaguely adjacent to > Mongolia (in a somewhat odd sort of way--minus the Inuit), but certainly not > to Tibet. > > VS-) > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat >> singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: >> >> Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China >> Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva Republic >> Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai >> Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China >> Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia >> Nanai people: Russia, China >> >> I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but their >> geographic description sounds reasonable to me. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 03:21:52 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 23:21:52 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150313.p7EAlU8D026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I suppose, it's a fair interpretation. I am more familiar with Tibetan "tantric chant" and with Inuit "duets" than with Altaic "throat singing". What I heard of Tuva "singing", it is similar to Tibetan, except it's done by individuals (males). But I don't have a full picture of Altaic throat singing, so I can't comment on significant differences. Wiki on Inuit singing makes it clear that female duos are unusual compared to Altaic types, but it does not make it clear what the differences are--well, other than it's not women and not two people. So I'll plead ignorance. VS-) On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in > Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." > > So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in > Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." > > Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan > is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an > update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. > Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it > a different type of singing? > > Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 03:28:09 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:28:09 -0700 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150322.p7EAlU8d026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, you know a lot more about it than me, then! Anyway, this additional comment makes it clearer how distinctions should be made. BB On Aug 14, 2011, at 8:21 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I suppose, it's a fair interpretation. I am more familiar with Tibetan > "tantric chant" and with Inuit "duets" than with Altaic "throat singing". > What I heard of Tuva "singing", it is similar to Tibetan, except it's done > by individuals (males). But I don't have a full picture of Altaic throat > singing, so I can't comment on significant differences. Wiki on Inuit > singing makes it clear that female duos are unusual compared to Altaic > types, but it does not make it clear what the differences are--well, other > than it's not women and not two people. So I'll plead ignorance. > > VS-) > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in >> Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." >> >> So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in >> Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." >> >> Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan >> is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an >> update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. >> Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it >> a different type of singing? >> >> Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 04:15:18 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 00:15:18 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 14, 2011, at 11:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Going in the other direction, in the just finished (season-final) episode of > Leverage (TNT), the final scene included a comment about "friends with > bennies". Thought I should mention it in this context. > > VS-) More new data: On an Air France flight to Paris (on my way to Ljubljana) a few days ago, I learned from the in-flight entertainment system that one of the alternate expressions we were discussing earlier, "sex friends", is actually French for "friends with benefits", or more accurately for "No Strings Attached", the Hollywood romcom starring Ashton Kutcher and Natalie Portman as attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex with each other while avoiding becoming romantically involved, not to be confused with "Friends With Benefits", he Hollywood romcom starring Justin Timberlake and Mila Kunis as attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex with each other while avoiding becoming romantically involved. The only question is what the French for "Friends With Benefits" will turn out to be, now that "Sex Friends" is taken. LH > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > >> >> On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> >>> On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 05, 2011 at 10:37:55AM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Successively telling GBooks Advanced Search to >>>>> search before xxxx for "[best] friend[s] with >>>>> benefits" (quoted; all 4 combinations) arrives at >>>>> just 9 hits before Dec 31, 2003, the earliest of >>>>> which (that appears relevant) is alleged to be >>>>> Apr 21, 1997, in New York Magazine, Vol. 30, No. >>>>> 15, page 106, a personal ad (a believable source, surely): >>>>> >>>>> "Wanted: Best Friend With Benefits I'm an >>>>> outgoing, fun, family-oriented 33-year-old (hell >>>>> of a catch), with a lot to offer. >>>>> Nonanorexic-looking Jewish female, living in >>>>> central NJ. I have a lot of plans for the spring >>>>> and summer ... I realized I was missing the >>>>> special guy to share the good times with. You >>>>> should be 31-40, just a bit romantic, ... >>>> >>>> But in context this looks like it means 'committed romantic/sexual >>>> partner who is also a close friend', i.e. emphasizing the fact that the >>>> advertiser is looking for someone who will be not only a lover but also >>>> a close friend. She's not just looking for a friend to sleep with on >>>> occasion. >>>> >>> That seems to be the case in the Morissette song as well, FWIW. A >>> speculation: maybe the FWB locution was recruited as a kind of >>> euphemism for the already existing "fuck buddy". >> >> That seems plausible to me, based on the late-'90s citations in the >> Usenet archive on Google Groups (http://ddIyP). Exx from '95-'96 >> mostly allude to the song, or at least share the underlying concept. >> Here, for instance, is a Morissettian "friend with benefits" in a >> personal ad from 11/28/96: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/dfw.personals/msg/c3dea870a2afe1de >> >> Starting in '98, we see it used more in the "fuck buddy" sense, e.g.: >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.romance/msg/aac2adcff389825c >> >> --bgz >> >> -- >> Ben Zimmer >> http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 04:29:56 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 00:29:56 -0400 Subject: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: <201108150415.p7EB0kK6031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: According to IMDB, Friends with Benefits is "Sexe entre amis". The Russian title translates "Sex in friendship" (the same "in" as in "We come in peace", not "in the box"). No Strings Attached supposedly had working titles "Fuckbuddies" and ... "Friends with Benefits". The French title was indeed the English "Sex Friends" (not translation). Russian title was "More than Sex" (translation), Bulgarian "Simply Sex" (translation). VS-) On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:15 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > More new data: > On an Air France flight to Paris (on my way to Ljubljana) a few days ago, I > learned from the in-flight entertainment system that one of the alternate > expressions we were discussing earlier, "sex friends", is actually French > for "friends with benefits", or more accurately for "No Strings Attached", > the Hollywood romcom starring Ashton Kutcher and Natalie Portman as > attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex with each > other while avoiding becoming romantically involved, not to be confused with > "Friends With Benefits", he Hollywood romcom starring Justin Timberlake and > Mila Kunis as attractive opposite-sex friends who decide to have casual sex > with each other while avoiding becoming romantically involved. The only > question is what the French for "Friends With Benefits" will turn out to be, > now that "Sex Friends" is taken. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 05:23:21 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:23:21 -0400 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150240.p7EAlU6n026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe, I found an earlier version of the same story--1891. And it may not be the earliest, as the subtitle suggests that the stories were culled from a journal published in the Daily Telegraph, although the dates are not specified. In fact, "tsuyu" is mentioned twice, although the first one does not appear to be integrated (but does explain the confusion in the second). http://goo.gl/Fmv4y Seas and lands. By Sir Edwin Arnold. NY: Longmans, 1891 [Reprinted by Permission of the Proprietors of the "Daily Telegraph" From Letters Published Under the Title "By Sea and Land" in That Journal.] Chapter 14. Rural Japan. p. 190-1 > First appears a small square table about eight inches high, upon which are > placed fresh cups and chopsticks *(hashi), *the latter being cut from > white wood, the two sticks still joined at the end, so that you may know > they are fresh and unused. You separate them as a hungry man takes up his > knife and fork, and are then ready for the "honourable tray " of red or > black lacquer, which is slid within your reach by the kneeling and bowing > *musume. *On each of our trays was a little bowl of soup with shreds of > vegetables, a saucer of pickled celery and radish--*tsukemono*--a minute > slab of boiled trout, another saucer holding shreds of cold chicken, and a > wooden bowl with a rather doubtful composition of some sort of whey and > white of egg. Between the trays a large wooden tub of hot boiled rice, > admirably dressed, was set, with a fresh pot of tea. A plate of cakes--* > kashi*--also appeared, and when we had asked for and obtained salt and > bread $B!= (Barticles apparently not usually furnished--there was quite enough to > eat, and of no bad quality. The little glossy-haired *musume *kneels all > the time before the guest, softly murmuring as she re-fills your plate or > cup, "*Mo sukoshi nasai*"--" Condescend to take a little more!"--and it is > part of the refined politeness of this nation that they call hot water, tea, > and soup, by complimentary terms, as "*O yu," " *The honourable > hot-water;" "*0 cha," "*The honourable tea;" " *0 **tsuyu," **" *The > honourable refreshing dew--of soup." The hot white rice, decorously poked > into the mouth with the chopsticks from the edge of the laquered basin, is > the real mainstay of the meal, which, being removed, the tobacco-box and > small bamboo pipes succeed. The second citation matches the 1914 one: Chapter 17. A Japanese Dinner. p. 232 [See original quotation.] Amazingly enough, OED has an earlier mention of "tsukemono" (1885). The rest of the Japanese terms are not found in the OED. The same text is reprinted in 1899 ( http://goo.gl/gu5Jt ). The 1872 Japanese-Engish dictionary in GB gives several representations for three "tsuyu" words--rainy season, dew and broth/soup. But the first pair of characters you list for broth appears in all three. http://goo.gl/Ovl0p p. 571 On the other hand, this dictionary cannot be used for antedating because "tsuyu" appears only in Japanese phrases in it. What's interesting about it is that there are a number of semi-integrated sources (that is, those that cite both the Japanese word and the translation, but as a part of a running text), in addition to a number of transliterations of Japanese text. But virtually all of the ones prior to 1920 refer to either "dew" or "rainy season" (mid-June to early July, not the one in September--others suggest that /all/ rainy seasons are identified as "tsuyu"). Some mention various combinations, such as pottery called "Shira-tsuyu" (white dew) and the phrase "asa-tsuyu" (morning dew or "something transient"). The rest are actually proper names. There is one other exception, but it's only a snippet in GB. http://goo.gl/p1Fil Saturday Review, supposedly from 1892. Internal check suggests that the date is accurate, but should still be verified. The passage refers to "tsuyu-soup". Another passage (1893) identifies "sausage in syrup" but it's a tsuyu compound, so I did not keep track of it. VS-) On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > I don't see tsuyu in the OED. "Soup" seems to be a common way to referring > to this. I think that's what the waiter in the pseudo-Japanese restaurant > responded with when I asked for tsuyu and he didn't know the word. > > 1. The earliest I see on Google Books for "tsuyu" as dipping broth is 1914, > though the authors seem to confuse tsuyu ( $B$D$f (B or $B=A (B) "broth, dipping broth" > and tsuyu "dew" ( $BO* (B). > > The world's story: a history of the world in story, song and art, ed. by > Eva March Tappan (Google eBook)) (http://ow.ly/63121) > Karl Julius Ploetz, Horatio Willis Dresser > Houghton Mifflin company > > ----- > Then comes the first "honorable" table, a small lacquered tray with > lacquered blows upon it, containing a covered basin of tsuyu-soup--the > "honorable dew"--a little pot of soy, a gilded platter with various sweet > and aromatic condiments upon it, and some wonderful vegetables, environing > some fairy cutlets of salmon. > ----- > > 2. The next occurrence jumps to 1964: > > The East, Volumes 1-3, East Publications, Inc., page 38 ( > http://ow.ly/630VM) > > ----- > _Udon_ and _soba_ can be bought in most food stores in Japan, so one need > only know how to prepare the soup, or _tsuyu_: Dried bonito flakes... > ----- > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 05:35:03 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 22:35:03 -0700 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150523.p7EB0kKu031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nice! Generally speaking, we wouldn't expect to see anything much earlier than when the country opened up to Perry in 1854; that's getting very close. It's likely that the characters are simply misprints. People make errors today with computers and doing so when reference books were difficult to come by would have been much more likely. BB On Aug 14, 2011, at 10:23 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I believe, I found an earlier version of the same story--1891. And it may > not be the earliest, as the subtitle suggests that the stories were culled > from a journal published in the Daily Telegraph, although the dates are not > specified. In fact, "tsuyu" is mentioned twice, although the first one does > not appear to be integrated (but does explain the confusion in the second). > > http://goo.gl/Fmv4y > Seas and lands. By Sir Edwin Arnold. NY: Longmans, 1891 > [Reprinted by Permission of the Proprietors of the "Daily Telegraph" From > Letters Published Under the Title "By Sea and Land" in That Journal.] > Chapter 14. Rural Japan. p. 190-1 > >> First appears a small square table about eight inches high, upon which are >> placed fresh cups and chopsticks *(hashi), *the latter being cut from >> white wood, the two sticks still joined at the end, so that you may know >> they are fresh and unused. You separate them as a hungry man takes up his >> knife and fork, and are then ready for the "honourable tray " of red or >> black lacquer, which is slid within your reach by the kneeling and bowing >> *musume. *On each of our trays was a little bowl of soup with shreds of >> vegetables, a saucer of pickled celery and radish--*tsukemono*--a minute >> slab of boiled trout, another saucer holding shreds of cold chicken, and a >> wooden bowl with a rather doubtful composition of some sort of whey and >> white of egg. Between the trays a large wooden tub of hot boiled rice, >> admirably dressed, was set, with a fresh pot of tea. A plate of cakes--* >> kashi*--also appeared, and when we had asked for and obtained salt and >> bread $B!= (Barticles apparently not usually furnished--there was quite enough to >> eat, and of no bad quality. The little glossy-haired *musume *kneels all >> the time before the guest, softly murmuring as she re-fills your plate or >> cup, "*Mo sukoshi nasai*"--" Condescend to take a little more!"--and it is >> part of the refined politeness of this nation that they call hot water, tea, >> and soup, by complimentary terms, as "*O yu," " *The honourable >> hot-water;" "*0 cha," "*The honourable tea;" " *0 **tsuyu," **" *The >> honourable refreshing dew--of soup." The hot white rice, decorously poked >> into the mouth with the chopsticks from the edge of the laquered basin, is >> the real mainstay of the meal, which, being removed, the tobacco-box and >> small bamboo pipes succeed. > > > The second citation matches the 1914 one: > > Chapter 17. A Japanese Dinner. p. 232 > [See original quotation.] > > Amazingly enough, OED has an earlier mention of "tsukemono" (1885). The rest > of the Japanese terms are not found in the OED. > > The same text is reprinted in 1899 ( http://goo.gl/gu5Jt ). > > The 1872 Japanese-Engish dictionary in GB gives several representations for > three "tsuyu" words--rainy season, dew and broth/soup. But the first pair of > characters you list for broth appears in all three. > > http://goo.gl/Ovl0p > p. 571 > > On the other hand, this dictionary cannot be used for antedating because > "tsuyu" appears only in Japanese phrases in it. What's interesting about it > is that there are a number of semi-integrated sources (that is, those that > cite both the Japanese word and the translation, but as a part of a running > text), in addition to a number of transliterations of Japanese text. But > virtually all of the ones prior to 1920 refer to either "dew" or "rainy > season" (mid-June to early July, not the one in September--others suggest > that /all/ rainy seasons are identified as "tsuyu"). Some mention various > combinations, such as pottery called "Shira-tsuyu" (white dew) and the > phrase "asa-tsuyu" (morning dew or "something transient"). The rest are > actually proper names. > > There is one other exception, but it's only a snippet in GB. > > http://goo.gl/p1Fil > Saturday Review, supposedly from 1892. > > Internal check suggests that the date is accurate, but should still be > verified. The passage refers to "tsuyu-soup". > > Another passage (1893) identifies "sausage in syrup" but it's a tsuyu > compound, so I did not keep track of it. > > VS-) > > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> I don't see tsuyu in the OED. "Soup" seems to be a common way to referring >> to this. I think that's what the waiter in the pseudo-Japanese restaurant >> responded with when I asked for tsuyu and he didn't know the word. >> >> 1. The earliest I see on Google Books for "tsuyu" as dipping broth is 1914, >> though the authors seem to confuse tsuyu ( $B$D$f (B or $B=A (B) "broth, dipping broth" >> and tsuyu "dew" ( $BO* (B). >> >> The world's story: a history of the world in story, song and art, ed. by >> Eva March Tappan (Google eBook)) (http://ow.ly/63121) >> Karl Julius Ploetz, Horatio Willis Dresser >> Houghton Mifflin company >> >> ----- >> Then comes the first "honorable" table, a small lacquered tray with >> lacquered blows upon it, containing a covered basin of tsuyu-soup--the >> "honorable dew"--a little pot of soy, a gilded platter with various sweet >> and aromatic condiments upon it, and some wonderful vegetables, environing >> some fairy cutlets of salmon. >> ----- >> >> 2. The next occurrence jumps to 1964: >> >> The East, Volumes 1-3, East Publications, Inc., page 38 ( >> http://ow.ly/630VM) >> >> ----- >> _Udon_ and _soba_ can be bought in most food stores in Japan, so one need >> only know how to prepare the soup, or _tsuyu_: Dried bonito flakes... >> ----- >> >> Benjamin Barrett >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Mon Aug 15 08:05:09 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 04:05:09 -0400 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150535.p7EB0kL0031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/15/2011 1:35 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Nice! > > Generally speaking, we wouldn't expect to see anything much earlier than when the country opened up to Perry in 1854; that's getting very close. > > It's likely that the characters are simply misprints. People make errors today with computers and doing so when reference books were difficult to come by would have been much more likely. -- I think the characters Victor Steinbok refers to which are constant are the kana (phonetic symbols) "tsu", "yu" ... although katakana appear in the dictionary rather than Benjamin Barrett's hiragana. The characters look OK although I can't make out every stroke. One might suppose that "tsuyu" = "soup/juice/sap/sauce/gravy/etc." is originally the same Japanese word as "tsuyu" = "dew", just assigned different kanji for different meanings/sub-meanings. As for the other "tsuyu", the kanji mean "plum rain" or so and (AFAIK) the individual pronunciations of these two kanji have no relation at all to "tsuyu", they are just attached to "tsuyu" as a pair (jukujikun, I think). Again this "tsuyu" could conceivably be basically/originally the same native word as "dew". However, Starostin's site shows two different Proto-Altaic antecedents (for those who believe in Proto-Altaic), and three separate Proto-Japanese words (all *tuju though), so I dunno. http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\japet (enter [e.g.] <> in the "Tokyo" box) I guess one can forgive the writer for thinking the words are/were the same: hard to prove otherwise, anyway. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 15 08:33:20 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:33:20 -0700 Subject: Tsuyu (dipping broth, 1914) In-Reply-To: <201108150806.p7EB0kNo031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 1:05 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > On 8/15/2011 1:35 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >> Nice! >> >> Generally speaking, we wouldn't expect to see anything much earlier than when the country opened up to Perry in 1854; that's getting very close. >> >> It's likely that the characters are simply misprints. People make errors today with computers and doing so when reference books were difficult to come by would have been much more likely. > -- > > I think the characters Victor Steinbok refers to which are constant are > the kana (phonetic symbols) "tsu", "yu" ... although katakana appear in > the dictionary rather than Benjamin Barrett's hiragana. The characters > look OK although I can't make out every stroke. > > One might suppose that "tsuyu" = "soup/juice/sap/sauce/gravy/etc." is > originally the same Japanese word as "tsuyu" = "dew", just assigned > different kanji for different meanings/sub-meanings. As for the other > "tsuyu", the kanji mean "plum rain" or so and (AFAIK) the individual > pronunciations of these two kanji have no relation at all to "tsuyu", > they are just attached to "tsuyu" as a pair (jukujikun, I think). Again > this "tsuyu" could conceivably be basically/originally the same native > word as "dew". > > However, Starostin's site shows two different Proto-Altaic antecedents > (for those who believe in Proto-Altaic), and three separate > Proto-Japanese words (all *tuju though), so I dunno. > > http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=\data\alt\japet > > (enter [e.g.] <> in the "Tokyo" box) > > I guess one can forgive the writer for thinking the words are/were the > same: hard to prove otherwise, anyway. The katakana ?? in the dictionary are indeed the same as my hiragana ??. Katakana was the norm before WWII, so that is merely an orthographic convention. I basically agree about the possibilities of the different tsuyu having the same origin. It seems to me that either the English writer might have gotten them confused because they are homophonous, or was making a pun out of playfulness. I consulted a few dictionaries just now. None of my Classical Japanese dictionaries have an entry tusyu for dipping broth, though one or both of the other two meanings occur in them. And no modern dictionary has a derivation of any form of tsuyu. It seems possible that the dipping broth could be from tsuke (dip) yu (hot water), but that's just speculation on my part. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 09:42:04 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 05:42:04 -0400 Subject: Throat singing In-Reply-To: <201108150313.p7EAlU8D026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Don't forget the American isolate in San Francisco. http://www.genghisblues.com/film/index.html Eric On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Benjamin Barrett > Subject: Re: Throat singing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Snipping from your e-mail, the definition says, ""traditional esp. in > Mongolia, Tibet, and adjacent parts of central Asia." > > So, the point isn't "adjacent to Mongolia and Tibet" but "especially in > Mongolia, adjacent to Mongolia, in Tibet and adjacent to Tibet." > > Looking at Kazakhstan, I see it is 38 miles from Mongolia, and Uzbekistan > is adjacent to that. So I can see your point that there needs to be an > update, though it does not seem to be too bad, for Altaic throat singing. > Tibet throat singing is listed under "overtone singing" in Wikipedia; is it > a different type of singing? > > Inuit, of course, as well as Ainu need to be covered. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > > On Aug 14, 2011, at 7:59 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > It's quite obvious that the Altaic-wiki includes neither Inuit nor > Tibetan > > overtone chant/singing--an exclusion that may well be acceptable for a > site > > dedicated to Altaic issues, but not for overtone singing in general. Both > > Tibetan and Inuit distributions are significant and the OED entry was for > > "overtone singing", not "throat singing". That's the incomplete part. On > the > > other hand, I find it somewhat difficult to see something that is > adjacent > > to Mongolia and Tibet, since they are not exactly next to each other. > > Mongolia is north of Central China and Tibet is southwest of China > > (mostly--parts of former Tibet region are absorbed in southern Chinese > > provinces). The only region that's adjacent to both is Xinjiang (on > opposite > > ends) and if Uighurs don't practice overtone singing, then the OED > > definition is just wrong, not merely incomplete or questionable (although > > there are more than just Uighurs in Xinjiang--Kazakhs dominate the > northern > > region). The rest of the overtone-singing region may be vaguely adjacent > to > > Mongolia (in a somewhat odd sort of way--minus the Inuit), but certainly > not > > to Tibet. > > > > VS-) > > > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Benjamin Barrett >wrote: > > > >> > >> Looking at the countries where the eight ethnicities who practice throat > >> singing live (according to the Altaic wiki, we have: > >> > >> Tuvan, Mongolian, Kalmyk peoples: Russia, Mongolia, China > >> Khakas people: Khakassia, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Kemerovo Oblast, Tuva > Republic > >> Altay people: Russia, mostly in the Altai Republic and Altai Krai > >> Buryat people: Buryatia Russia with smaller groups in Mongolia and China > >> Kazakh people: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, China, Russia, Mongolia > >> Nanai people: Russia, China > >> > >> I don't know enough of the geography to say with much confidence, but > their > >> geographic description sounds reasonable to me. > >> > >> Benjamin Barrett > >> Seattle, WA > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 14:21:26 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:21:26 -0400 Subject: OT: (fairly) new (but unlisted) "benefits" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/14/2011 11:02 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >Going in the other direction, in the just finished (season-final) episode of >Leverage (TNT), the final scene included a comment about "friends with >bennies". Thought I should mention it in this context. Jack and Hill? Must be a barrel of laughs. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 14:47:51 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:47:51 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version Message-ID: I have been asked about a popular proclamation attributed to Coco Chanel: Fashion fades, only style remains the same. The most common modern phrasing differs from the earliest version I have located in an interview with Chanel in 1965. She uses the word "mode" and not "fashion" in her aphorism. Designer Yves Saint Laurent also made a similar statement by the 1980s. Does any list member know if Chanel said something similar in French? The French WikiQuote does not have a webpage for Chanel. I am interested in the transition from French to English if such a transition occurred. (I apologize if this question appears to be off topic. But I believe that some list members have extensive knowledge of English and French.) Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on paper) But style should reach the people, no? It should descend into the streets, into people's lives, like a revolution. That is real style. The rest is mode. Mode passes; style remains. Mode is made of a few amusing ideas, meant to be used up quickly, so they can be replaced by others in the next collection. A style endures even as it is renewed and evolved. Thanks for any help you can provide, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Aug 15 14:57:27 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:57:27 +0000 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108151448.p7FAl9Am001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Another variant (in English) is "Styles change, style does not." --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Garson O'Toole [adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 10:47 AM I have been asked about a popular proclamation attributed to Coco Chanel: Fashion fades, only style remains the same. The most common modern phrasing differs from the earliest version I have located in an interview with Chanel in 1965. She uses the word "mode" and not "fashion" in her aphorism. Designer Yves Saint Laurent also made a similar statement by the 1980s. Does any list member know if Chanel said something similar in French? The French WikiQuote does not have a webpage for Chanel. I am interested in the transition from French to English if such a transition occurred. (I apologize if this question appears to be off topic. But I believe that some list members have extensive knowledge of English and French.) Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on paper) But style should reach the people, no? It should descend into the streets, into people's lives, like a revolution. That is real style. The rest is mode. Mode passes; style remains. Mode is made of a few amusing ideas, meant to be used up quickly, so they can be replaced by others in the next collection. A style endures even as it is renewed and evolved. Thanks for any help you can provide, Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 15:37:04 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:37:04 -0400 Subject: nom, nomming, nom nom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I actually brought up the homonymy with the NOM group as an argument against choosing "nom" as Word of the Year in the debate before the ADS vote in January. Don't know if it swayed any voters?not that I was all that excited about "app" either. LH On Aug 7, 2011, at 6:03 PM, Ann Burlingham wrote: > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > >> (Everyone here subscribes to AmSp right? :-) > > "Nom" came up when I posted a photo to flickr of people at a National > Organization for Marriage rally. Both I and a young employee of mine > thought the acronym "NOM" was giggle-worthy, given the lolcat > referent. (NOM is an anti-same-sex marriage organization. They use the > phrase "traditional marriage" to denote mixed-sex monogamous marriage, > which I find disingenuous.) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 16:03:32 2011 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Shapiro, Fred) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:03:32 +0000 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy Message-ID: I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 16:31:53 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:31:53 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151603.p7FEvYge001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's probably not it, but it's far earlier than any allusion I can think of. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" > Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline > and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed > to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest > known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? > > Fred Shapiro > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 16:57:45 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:57:45 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151603.p7FEvYge001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's an interesting question and I would have thought it to be much earlier. But looking at Wiki, it makes me wonder if the expression is always interpreted in the same manner. I find the Wiki examples of Greek myths with allegedly self-fulfilling prophecies less than compelling--some involve vague predictions that are misinterpreted, others have the butterfly-economics sort of effect, where a response to a prophecy sets off a chain of accidents, eventually leading to the fulfillment of the prophecy. All of these seem to be far removed from Merton's notion--or, for that matter--from Gibbon's version. Among the Greek examples listed there, the only one that falls into the Merton category appears to be one of Zeus deciding to wage war on Cronos after the oracle predicts that Zeus will overthrow him and take his place. But even this is somewhat unsatisfying because Zeus takes action specifically intending to fulfill the prophecy. The Krishna version--an Indian counterpart to Oedipus, without the incest--seems to fit a bit better. Krishna is exiled after having been smuggled out of prison where his mother was kept by her brother. And the uncle continues to try to kill Krishna for years later. As a retribution for the acts against him and his mother, Krishna eventually deposes his uncle and kills him, thus fulfilling the prophecy. In this version, Krishna's acts are a direct response to acts caused by the prophecy, but he is not acting with the desire to fulfill the prophecy. In contrast, Oedipus is similarly exiled, but there is nothing in his actions that is directly related to the prophecy and the eventual encounter that leads to its fulfillment is accidental. My understanding of a self-fulfilling prophecy is that acts directly in response to a prophesy causally contribute to its eventual fulfillment without a direct intent to fulfill the prophecy. Most Greek myths fail the first part (causal connection) while the Zeus/Cronos myth fails the second. It is perfectly possible that my interpretation is too restrictive and the Wiki contributors are correct. But, in my view, fatalism and inexorable fate are not a part of self-fulfilling prophecy--they are essentially unrelated concepts. On the other hand, for example, I would consider marketing based on product sales rank to be a self-fulfilling prophecy (to a point)--i.e., a product is marketed as best to buy because it is already best selling (implying that the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong thereby inducing other consumers to buy it as well). Similar issues exist in rankings based on polls and surveys--whether it's college football or Zagat's restaurant reviews. VS-) On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline > and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed > to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest > known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 17:28:55 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:28:55 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151657.p7FGg3RO006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too young to get it. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 17:32:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:32:04 -0400 Subject: Lionized In-Reply-To: <201108142129.p7EB0k7k031201@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > the recent release of Lion, the new Mac OS, has resulted in a slew of uses of "lionization." What will be interesting is if the word catches on in regular parlance or undergoes a shift in meaning. > I'm a Mac-user, a fanboi, even, but, God! I hope that any connection of _lionize_ with the Lion OS quickly dies out! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 17:52:03 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:52:03 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >> the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen?" LH > that, > even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never > really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too > young to get it. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 17:52:39 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:52:39 -0400 Subject: Somewhat amusing typo -- "altering" for "alerting" Message-ID: In response to an email message in which I called attention to a traffic light frequently disobeyed (by drivers) and partially obscured (by tree leaves), the "Transportation Administrator" (whom I leave unnamed) of a town near Boston wrote: "Thank you for altering us to this issue, we will have it addressed immediately." I am impressed that my comment redirected their attention. JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 15 18:18:29 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:18:29 -0400 Subject: Lionized In-Reply-To: <5F474A82-0EF8-43B6-AF27-3BF7E2D0773E@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/14/2011 05:29 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >As expected, the recent release of Lion, the new Mac OS, has >resulted in a slew of uses of "lionization." What will be >interesting is if the word catches on in regular parlance or >undergoes a shift in meaning. lion (1715) : lioness (1808) :: lionize (1834, 1837) : ?? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Aug 15 18:24:07 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:24:07 +0000 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151657.p7FEvYvs001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Which is why (as some sociologist pointed out years ago) political polls--like the recent Iowa "straw poll"--are important: Americans like to vote for "winners," to be associated (in their own minds, at least) with victorious candidates. Even if the election outcome to which they contributed is actually disadvantageous to those voters (as some other commentator has noted, Americans vote not the interest of class to which they belong but the interest of the class to which they wish they belonged). --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of victor steinbok [aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM] Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 12:57 PM It is perfectly possible that my interpretation is too restrictive and the Wiki contributors are correct. But, in my view, fatalism and inexorable fate are not a part of self-fulfilling prophecy--they are essentially unrelated concepts. On the other hand, for example, I would consider marketing based on product sales rank to be a self-fulfilling prophecy (to a point)--i.e., a product is marketed as best to buy because it is already best selling (implying that the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong thereby inducing other consumers to buy it as well). Similar issues exist in rankings based on polls and surveys--whether it's college football or Zagat's restaurant reviews. VS-) On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline > and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed > to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest > known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? > > Fred Shapiro ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 18:41:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:41:41 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151752.p7FGg3a8006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen?" How strange! _Forty-million_ rings not a single bell for me. I guess that Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Aug 15 18:59:33 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:59:33 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151842.p7FGg3gg006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen " > > How strange! _Forty-million_ rings not a single bell for me. I guess that > > Youneverknow. Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher wrote the song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual population of France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until 1968, says Wikipedia. Audio to a 1927 version by Ted Lewis and His Band: http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/lewis/fiftymillionfrenchhmen.ra Lyrics to the Sophie Tucker version: http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 19:13:08 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:13:08 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <1313434773.4e496c95567eb@webmail.sas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> Goes back so far that I remember it as "40 million Frenchmen?" >> >> How strange! _Forty-million_ rings not a single bell for me. I guess that >> >> Youneverknow. > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher wrote the > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual population of > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until 1968, > says Wikipedia. > > Audio to a 1927 version by Ted Lewis and His Band: > http://www.redhotjazz.com/songs/lewis/fiftymillionfrenchhmen.ra > > Lyrics to the Sophie Tucker version: > http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml > > I guess Pynchon must have grown up on my side of the isogloss: http://www.ottosell.de/pynchon/jokespuns.htm Gravity?s Rainbow contains so many jokes and puns that a typology might make a helpful doctoral dissertation. Here, only two of the best?known examples will serve as models: "The Disgusting English Candy Drill" (114-20) and "For De Mille, young fur?henchmen can?t be rowing" (557-63). Each is lovingly set up. Steven Weisenburger calls "De Mille" the "most elaborately staged pun in all of GR. ? Note that Pynchon has fashioned an entire narrative digression about illicit trading in furs, oarsmen in boats, fur?henchmen, and De Mille?all of it in order to launch this pun" (240). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 19:16:19 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:16:19 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151859.p7FAl9RK024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher wrote the > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual population of > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until 1968, > says Wikipedia. > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected any kind of reality? BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue to the point of the expression! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 19:34:59 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:34:59 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151917.p7FAl9Ss024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 slang I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use in the army in 1918. The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French rarely bathed. The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the French were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far beyond "French kissing," if you get my drift. So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her many, many acquaintances. The alleged lyrics: http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase originated. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher > wrote the > > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual > population of > > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until > 1968, > > says Wikipedia. > > > > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected > any kind of reality? > > BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a > song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue > to the point of the expression! > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 15 19:48:51 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:48:51 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 slang > I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use in > the army in 1918. > > The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable > defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") > > The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French rarely > bathed. > > The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the French > were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far beyond > "French kissing," if you get my drift. > > So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a > wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her > many, many acquaintances. > > The alleged lyrics: > http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewrong.shtml > > seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase originated. > > JL And can we assume (an assumption not entirely gainsaid by the OED entry) that "teddy" for 'a woman's undergarment combining chemise and panties' derives from stanza 5 of the above ditty? LH > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer >> wrote: >>> Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher >> wrote the >>> song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual >> population of >>> France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until >> 1968, >>> says Wikipedia. >>> >> >> But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected >> any kind of reality? >> >> BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a >> song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue >> to the point of the expression! >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Mon Aug 15 19:55:41 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 15:55:41 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: An Access Newspaper Archive search for the phrase "frenchmen can't be wrong" finds nothing earlier than the 1927 song, so the song certainly popularized and probably originated the phrase. My guess is that the 40 million number came from speakers who were aware that there were not then 50 million Frenchmen in France. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 3:35 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 slang I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use in the army in 1918. The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French rarely bathed. The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the French were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far beyond "French kissing," if you get my drift. So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her many, many acquaintances. The alleged lyrics: http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewro ng.shtml seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase originated. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred Fisher > wrote the > > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual > population of > > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million until > 1968, > > says Wikipedia. > > > > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected > any kind of reality? > > BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a > song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue > to the point of the expression! > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 21:47:37 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:47:37 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151955.p7FI0Qfm001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The question of just when Frenchmen became infallible about what , according to the song is "naughty" and "bad," is probably not resolvable. If the phrase was originally and specifically sexually allusive, one would not expect to find any confirmation of it in print till decades later. And any evident "confirmation" could be questioned as a suspected anachronism. If the song consciously utilized a sexual allusion, it could only have been because the writers were convinced that the actual allusion was unfamiliar to the general public and could not be deduced from the phrase itself. Certainly the song effectively popularized the phrase. Here is a roughly parallel ex. of no probative value. Disney's cartoon movie "Robin Hood," with a woodland-creature cast, features Phil Harris singing a song called "The Phony King of England." The tune and the form are identical to those of a truly salacious song known throughout the English-speaking armies in both world wars as "Balls to the Bastard King of England!" It's nearly incredible that Harris or Disney or whoever got away with it, even in 1973. But that they did is indisputable. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > An Access Newspaper Archive search for the phrase "frenchmen can't be > wrong" finds nothing earlier than the 1927 song, so the song certainly > popularized and probably originated the phrase. My guess is that the 40 > million number came from speakers who were aware that there were not > then 50 million Frenchmen in France. > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 3:35 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > Naturally I can't prove this, but ISTR that when I was collecting WW1 > slang > I found an assertion (post facto, certainly) that the phrase was in use > in > the army in 1918. > > The most popular image of the French at the time was as indefatigable > defenders of liberty and their homeland. (I said "at the time.") > > The third - not widely acknowledged in print - was that the French > rarely > bathed. > > The second - even less widely acknowledged in print - was that the > French > were addicted to certain XXX-rated sexual activities that went far > beyond > "French kissing," if you get my drift. > > So *if* the phrase did exist before the song, I suggest that it was as a > wink-wink nudge-nudge allusion to Mademoiselle from Armentieres and her > many, many acquaintances. > > The alleged lyrics: > http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/f/fiftymillionfrenchmencantbewro > ng.shtml > > seem consistent with this view, regardless of when the phrase > originated. > > JL > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Wilson Gray > > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:59 PM, Ben Zimmer > > wrote: > > > Interestingly enough, when Willie Raskin, Billy Rose, and Fred > Fisher > > wrote the > > > song "Fifty Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong" in 1927, the actual > > population of > > > France was pretty close to 40 million -- it wouldn't hit 50 million > until > > 1968, > > > says Wikipedia. > > > > > > > But, wasn't it just a saying, without any pretense that it reflected > > any kind of reality? > > > > BTW, thanks for the info WRT the song. I had no idea that there was a > > song with that title. Perhaps reading its lyrics will give me a clue > > to the point of the expression! > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 15 23:00:02 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:00:02 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" Except when fifty-million Frenchmen hold an opinion that differs from mine, in which case there can be only one explanation, no? As to the origin -- I have read, many years ago, that it was a slogan coined by a theatrical promoter who had brought a (maybe) famous French (maybe) beauty to perform in this country. If there were those who doubted her fame or her beauty, well, "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" This might have been Florenz Ziegfeld, whose wife was Anna Held, who I believe to have been French, and a beauty, and a performer. I will check further, later this evening. GAT On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, > even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never > really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too > young to get it. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 23:16:04 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:16:04 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108152300.p7FGg37K006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe Ford use the phrase in early advertisements, before the song. Something like, "one million people can't be wrong" DanG On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 7:00 PM, George Thompson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: George Thompson > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > Except when fifty-million Frenchmen hold an opinion that differs from mine, > in which case there can be only one explanation, no? > > As to the origin -- I have read, many years ago, that it was a slogan coined > by a theatrical promoter who had brought a (maybe) famous French (maybe) > beauty to perform in this country. If there were those who doubted her fame > or her beauty, well, "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > This might have been Florenz Ziegfeld, whose wife was Anna Held, who I > believe to have been French, and a beauty, and a performer. > I will check further, later this evening. > > GAT > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok >> wrote: >> > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong >> >> "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" >> >> Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, >> even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never >> really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too >> young to get it. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 15 23:50:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:50:07 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108152316.p7FJgFio024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A search of NewspaperArchive and GB for "million people can't be wrong" turns up nothing of significance. JL On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 7:16 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe Ford use the phrase in early advertisements, before the > song. Something like, "one million people can't be wrong" > DanG > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 7:00 PM, George Thompson > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: George Thompson > > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > Except when fifty-million Frenchmen hold an opinion that differs from > mine, > > in which case there can be only one explanation, no? > > > > As to the origin -- I have read, many years ago, that it was a slogan > coined > > by a theatrical promoter who had brought a (maybe) famous French (maybe) > > beauty to perform in this country. If there were those who doubted her > fame > > or her beauty, well, "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > > This might have been Florenz Ziegfeld, whose wife was Anna Held, who I > > believe to have been French, and a beauty, and a performer. > > I will check further, later this evening. > > > > GAT > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:57 PM, victor steinbok > > >> wrote: > >> > the plurality or majority of consumers cannot be wrong > >> > >> "Fifty-million Frenchmen *can't* be wrong!" > >> > >> Anybody else remember this one? That slogan goes back so far that, > >> even though it was once an almost-everyday expression, I've never > >> really understood what was behind the "wink," so to speak. I was too > >> young to get it. > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > George A. Thompson > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. > > Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Aug 16 01:13:44 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:13:44 -0800 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: > [...] > Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant > phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) > > 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) > 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) > 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) > 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) > 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) > 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) > > Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. > > Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview > with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, > Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on > paper) Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Coco Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in a semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the most straightforward translation I can think of. So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correction. The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an intermediary. Chris Waigl (*) ==== ? La mode passe, le style reste ?, ne se lassait de r?p?ter Coco Chanel, dont l'impact sur la garde-robe contemporaine n'a toujours pas d'?gal, pr?s de quarante ans apr?s sa disparition. http://www.marieclaire.fr/,curriculum-style-coco-chanel-en-5-dates,20290,20721.asp ==== -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 01:19:43 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:19:43 -0400 Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy In-Reply-To: <201108151632.p7FEvYow001530@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fred asked about the "earliest known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy" and mentioned an instance in Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. The first volume of this work was published in 1776. Since this task is not easy to define I decided to search for the concept expressed with words similar to those used by Gibbon. I think that the concept was expressed in 1745 in the work "The Family Expositor: or, A Paraphrase and Version of the New Testament: with Critical Notes and a Practical Improvement of Each Section", Volume 2. This work contains an expanded version of the tale of Mary anointing the feet of Jesus based on the biblical verse Mark 14:9 and the surrounding text. In the expanded text Jesus discusses the future and makes a prediction with additional details supplied by the writer. (Strictly speaking Jesus makes more than one prediction.) The critical notes that are included with the work comment negatively on the recounting of this episode. The critic complains that the prediction is "trifling, and would seem to bespeak its own Accomplishment." I think this is an instance of a writing mentioning the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Here is an excerpt containing the prediction by Jesus that is the subject of the complaint in the critical analysis. And on the whole, tho' you have such hard Thoughts of what she has been doing, it shall not finally turn to her Reproach or Damage; but as I graciously accept it, so I assuredly say unto you, that wheresoever this Gospel of mine is preached, and it in Time shall have its Triumph over the whole World, this very Action also which this pious and affectionate Woman has now performed shall be inserted in the History of my Life, and be spoken of with Honour for a Memorial of her Friendship and Affection to me; so that her Name shall be embalmed in such a Manner, as to be far more fragrant than the Perfume which she has poured forth on my Head and my Feet. (Compare Eccles. vii I.) Here is an excerpt from the critical analysis that contains the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy: Not to say, that the Prediction, which Mr Whiston supposes our Lord to utter, is quite trifling, and would seem to bespeak its own Accomplishment, in a Manner which he never would have stooped to. Here are some links into the book so the reader can perform his or her own analysis. http://books.google.com/books?id=mqYGAAAAQAAJ&q=bespeak#v=snippet& http://books.google.com/books?id=mqYGAAAAQAAJ&q=%22her+friendship%22#v=snippet& On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That's probably not it, but it's far earlier than any allusion I can think > of. > > JL > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Shapiro, Fred" >> Subject: Concept of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I have recently come across the following line of Gibbon's in The Decline >> and Fall of the Roman Empire: "The prediction, as it is usual, contributed >> to its own accomplishment." This makes me wonder, what is the earliest >> known expression of the concept of the self-fulfilling prophecy? >> >> Fred Shapiro >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 01:49:46 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:49:46 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201102112302.p1BKL8kg013743@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song sung in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned many songs from his father: "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably the couplet originated in the nineteenth century. JL On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:09 PM, wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: ronbutters at AOL.COM > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Perhaps, as Hamlet said, the readiness is all. Or the gaydar. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Feb 11, 2011, at 5:03 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 8:59 PM, wrote: > >> [T]hat doesn't mean the little guy likes girls! > > > > Quite so! > > > > Absent context, one never knows, do one? :-) > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ??? > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"??a strange complaint to > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > ?Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 02:07:40 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 22:07:40 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160149.p7FGg3OW006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > Up jumped the little crabfish and _caught *her* by the cock_." Oh. My. God. I? I. Have. No. Words. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 16 02:19:10 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:19:10 -0700 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160208.p7FJgF0a024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: >> >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. >> Up jumped the little crabfish and _caught *her* by the cock_." > > Oh. My. God. I? I. Have. No. Words. > Doesn't "cock" just mean vagina? Is there something else there? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 02:35:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 22:35:47 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160149.p7FGg3OW006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > As I was reading the song, _Barbary - also _Barbara_? Allan_, I came across the phrase, "? look over in yonders field" Connoisseurs of the blues will be reminded of the blues phrase, "Look over yonders wall?" Quelle coincidence! BTW, what's the deal with "? high, low, jack, and the game" I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" an obvious pun. The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, IME, card game. Help a brother out, y'all. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 04:09:50 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:09:50 -0400 Subject: treating ugly Message-ID: For the fans of "treating bad", a little gem from Rick Perry: If this guy prints more money between now and the election, I dunno what > y?all would do to him in Iowa but we would treat him pretty ugly down in > Texas. Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in > history is almost treasonous in my opinion. Now, *I* am *not* passing judgment. I actually happen to think that no judgment is to be passed--even if it sounds a bit ... ahem... Texan. But that should not stop anyone else--especially those who care to pass judgment on those who pass judgment. ;-) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 04:28:00 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:28:00 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108160113.p7FJgFwa024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Many thanks to Charlie and Chris. The OED has an entry for "mode" that shows it has been used in English with a sense derived from the French word for many years. mode, n. II. In senses derived from French. 7. a. A prevailing fashion, custom, practice, or style, esp. one characteristic of a particular place or period. Admittedly, the OED gloss mentions fashion and style, the two words that the modern aphorism is attempting to distinguish. OED citations for mode begin in 1642. Here are the cites in 1884 and 1920. 1884 W. C. Smith Kildrostan 69 We are grown To be a sort of dandies in religion, Affecting the last mode. 1920 Amer. Woman Aug. 7/1 In the neckwear departments the racks are hung . . with madeup collars which attest the prevailing mode. Chris Waigl wrote: > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted > all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the > help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? Excellent question. I examined the McCall's interview and was unable to determine if it was conducted in French, English, or a mixture. The prefatory comments do not indicate the language spoken and do not mention a translator. While answering an interview question Chanel mentioned the Duke of Westminster and indicated that she was able to speak some English because she did so with him. (Begin excerpt) I was lucky to have known the Duke. Fourteen years. That is a long time, no? He was shy and timid, too, but I have never felt more protected. He was solid and comfortable. He understood me???except for my working, of course. He gave me peace. He was generous. He was simple. We talked half in English, half in French. "I don't want you to learn English," he said, "and discover there is nothing in the conversation you hear around us." The clips I found on YouTube show Chanel speaking only French. The clips are from interviews performed in 1969 and 1970. It is possible that the entire McCall's interview was conducted in French and the interviewer Joseph Barry translated the words into English. I am not sure. Perhaps Barry was familiar with the English word "mode" and thought it would be perfect for the translation. Alternatively, Coco Chanel presented the aphorism while she was speaking English. Thanks for pointing out "la mode passe, le style reste". I can find many instances of this French phrase but oddly none of them appear in 1965 or earlier. This may be an artifact of the poor coverage of French periodicals in the databases I access. If someone finds and shares a citation in French or English for this saying before 1965 that would be very kind. Garson On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Chris Waigl > Subject: ? ? ? Re: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Question about French version > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: > >> [...] >> Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant >> phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) >> >> 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) >> 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an interview) >> 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) >> >> Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. >> >> Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview >> with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, >> Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on >> paper) > > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? > > The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Coco Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in a semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the most straightforward translation I can think of. > > So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correction. The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an intermediary. > > Chris Waigl > > > (*) > ==== > ?? La mode passe, le style reste ??, ne se lassait de r??p??ter Coco Chanel, dont l'impact sur la garde-robe contemporaine n'a toujours pas d'??gal, pr??s de quarante ans apr??s sa disparition. > http://www.marieclaire.fr/,curriculum-style-coco-chanel-en-5-dates,20290,20721.asp > ==== > -- > Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net > twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 06:56:57 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 02:56:57 -0400 Subject: treating ugly In-Reply-To: <201108160438.p7FL0EMW021220@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:09 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > For the fans of "treating bad", a little gem from Rick Perry: > > If this guy prints more money between now and the election, I dunno what >> y=92all would do to him in Iowa but we would treat him pretty ugly down i= > n >> Texas. Printing more money to play politics at this particular time in >> history is almost treasonous in my opinion. > In Texas, if you _act ugly_, then you can expect to be _treated ugly_. Nothing special about that. Right, Charlie? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 09:08:12 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 05:08:12 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160236.p7G2RWQ8006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards of any suit. Eric On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > BTW, what's the deal with > > "? high, low, jack, and the game" > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > an obvious pun. > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > IME, card game. > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 11:26:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 07:26:07 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108160908.p7G2RWkw006452@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all she wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > o= > f > any suit. > > Eric > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > IME, card game. > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 12:07:55 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:07:55 +0000 Subject: "Cock" Message-ID: If my memory is correct, this is also a phrase associated with the game of cribbage. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:26:07 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Cock" For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all she wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > o= > f > any suit. > > Eric > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > IME, card game. > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 12:18:41 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:18:41 -0400 Subject: P. Petit quote Message-ID: I remember this one. It isn't in YBQ, but it's at least as good as Mallory's "Because it's there," which is. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/man-wire-remembers-twin-towers-155014147.html : After Petit finally came down from the tightrope (unharmed), he was arrested, jailed, taken for a psychological evaluation, and released. Journalists asked the performer why he did it. The then 24-year-old responded, "When I see three oranges, I juggle. When I see two towers, I walk." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 12:27:11 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:27:11 +0000 Subject: "Cock" Message-ID: Ignore that, please. There is no way that could be associated with cribbage. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Ron Butters To: ,"Jonathan Lighter" Cc: Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 12:07:55 PM GMT+0000 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Cock" If my memory is correct, this is also a phrase associated with the game of cribbage. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Jonathan Lighter To: Date: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 7:26:07 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Cock" For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all she wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Eric Nielsen > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must be > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > o= > f > any suit. > > Eric > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > IME, card game. > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 14:05:38 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:05:38 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song sung in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned many songs from his father: "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably the couplet originated in the nineteenth century. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 16 14:12:53 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 10:12:53 -0400 Subject: "chat-down" Message-ID: Nonce for now, but I could see it becoming popular... --- http://www.npr.org/2011/08/16/139643652/next-in-line-for-the-tsa-a-thorough-chat-down NPR Morning Edition, 8/16/11, "Next In Line For The TSA? A Thorough 'Chat-Down'" Unlike the usual security pat-down, the profiling process is what you might call a "chat-down." --- --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 15:28:42 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:28:42 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161405.p7GApM81023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't see how we could know. But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in the minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male and female physiology seems incontrovertible. I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, from the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague euphemisms with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") Anyone using the word in a unisex manner today may realistically be suspected of tendentiousness. A hundred years from now, who knows? JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed > to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song > sung > in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to > have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned > many > songs from his father: > > "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > > http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > > I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop > Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably > the > couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 16 15:42:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:42:02 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I don't see how we could know. In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an unambiguously hetero context. > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in the > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male and > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, from > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague euphemisms > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). LH > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Baker, John" >> Subject: Re: "Cock" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? >> >> >> John Baker >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf >> Of Jonathan Lighter >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: "Cock" >> >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song >> sung >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned >> many >> songs from his father: >> >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." >> >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam >> >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably >> the >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. >> >> JL >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 15:54:45 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 11:54:45 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161542.p7GAqXlS016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I think most all of us would guess the same. "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, they're technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent or similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and is other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) for both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but will it catch on?) JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > I don't see how we could know. > > In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an > unambiguously hetero context. > > > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was > > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in > the > > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male > and > > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, > from > > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I > > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague > euphemisms > > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") > > or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like > "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). > > > LH > > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Baker, John" > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed > >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > >> > >> > >> John Baker > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf > >> Of Jonathan Lighter > >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song > >> sung > >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to > >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned > >> many > >> songs from his father: > >> > >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > >> > >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > >> > >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop > >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably > >> the > >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > >> > >> JL > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 16:19:58 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:19:58 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, gee, LIMB means both 'arm' and 'leg'--and TIT is used (at least informally) to refer to both male and female anatomy, so why not COCK? Not to mention that ASS means the hindquarters region for both male and female, as well as meaning (metonymically?) female genitalia. According to the first citation in DARE, COCK in Indiana in the 1890s applied to both male and female genitalia. And the final citation, from American Speech 1970, says the both-sex reference is found in Missouri. Neither seems particularly "postmodern." Of course the reporters could be wrong, but I doubt that politics has much to do with what southern folk called their genitals in the earlier 20th century. Of course, that doesn't mean somebody can't find an excuse to make a little sociopolitical rant, even so. One ancecdote, told to me by a bisexual male student (from the rural SC-NC border) c1970: "I said to my roommate, 'I need some cock bad'. He didn't know I thought about doing gay stuff, and I just assumed he knew I meant 'pussy'. But he unzipped his pants and I was ready for that, too." This is as close as I can come to any confirmation that COCK actually meant simply 'genitalia' (or, by extension, interaction with genitalia), but it seemed to me that the student assumed that In understood him to understand that COCK in his dialect was not restricted to the male member. On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as > acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I > think most all of us would guess the same. > > "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, they're > technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the > expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. > > More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent or > similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and is > other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) for > both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. > (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but > will it catch on?) > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: "Cock" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> >>> I don't see how we could know. >> >> In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an >> unambiguously hetero context. >>> >>> But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was >>> suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in >> the >>> minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male >> and >>> female physiology seems incontrovertible. >>> >>> I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, >> from >>> the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I >>> believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague >> euphemisms >>> with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") >> >> or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like >> "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). >> >> >> LH >> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: >>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>>> ----------------------- >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>>> Poster: "Baker, John" >>>> Subject: Re: "Cock" >>>> >>>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed >>>> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? >>>> >>>> >>>> John Baker >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On >> Behalf >>>> Of Jonathan Lighter >>>> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>>> Subject: Re: "Cock" >>>> >>>> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song >>>> sung >>>> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to >>>> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned >>>> many >>>> songs from his father: >>>> >>>> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. >>>> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." >>>> >>>> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam >>>> >>>> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop >>>> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably >>>> the >>>> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. >>>> >>>> JL >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >> truth." >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 16 16:32:17 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:32:17 -0700 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161620.p7GApMTH016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I found my 1982 abridged edition of "Slang and Euphemism" by Spears, which cites 1800s and before for this use. "6. the female genitals. In much of the Southern U.S. and Caribbean, "cock" refers to the female organs exclusively. Possibly related to COCKLES (q.v.). Cf. sense 2. [U.S. dialect and Negro stage, 1800s and before] 7.. women considered solely as sexual objects. From sense 6. 8. to receive a man in copulation, said of a woman. [British, 1800s, Farmer and Henley]" Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 16, 2011, at 9:19 AM, Ronald Butters wrote: > According to the first citation in DARE, COCK in Indiana in the 1890s = > applied to both male and female genitalia. And the final citation, from = > American Speech 1970, says the both-sex reference is found in Missouri. = > Neither seems particularly "postmodern." Of course the reporters could = > be wrong, but I doubt that politics has much to do with what southern = > folk called their genitals in the earlier 20th century. Of course, that = > doesn't mean somebody can't find an excuse to make a little = > sociopolitical rant, even so. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 16:58:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:58:16 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161126.p7GApMS3023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Sounds rather similar to the standard tennis metaphor. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > For some inexplicable reason, "That's high, low, jack, and the game!" is > missing from HDAS, though I know I had a bunch of cites. > > Eric's explanation is of course correct. The phrase appears frequently in > 19th C. sources, esp. out West, with nuances translatable as "That's all > she > wrote" and "That spells another big win for me!" > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:08 AM, Eric Nielsen > wrote: > > > > > The card game "Pitch" has such a points system: high, low, jack, and game > > are worth one point each to make your bid. The high, low, and jack must > be > > of the trump suit. Game is calculated by adding up the "game point" cards > > of any suit. > > > > Eric > > > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > > BTW, what's the deal with > > > > > > "=85 high, low, jack, and the game" > > > > > > I've read this phrase in literature and heard it in the media since > > > forever. There was once a singing group that called itself, > > > > > > "High, Low, Jack, and The Dame" > > > > > > an obvious pun. > > > > > > The phrase appears to be an obscure, IME, reference to an obscure, > > > IME, card game. > > > > > > Help a brother out, y'all. > > > > > > -- > > > -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 17:33:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:33:01 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108160438.p7FJgF88024138@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm certainly with Chris on this one, but I had a different concern. "Style" has multiple glosses even in English and I am not convinced that the French [likely] original would correspond to the same English word in this context. On the other hand, the version "styles change; style does not" actually communicates the message rather well. In particular, "last year's fashion" can be communicated as "last year's style"--both captured rather neatly with "mode". But the "style" in the counterpoint is something entirely different--it's either the sense of a personal style (how one presents oneself) or the sense of style that a designer projects through all his/her lines. A French speaker would have to explain whether such distinction even exists in French, but that distinction may well be the root of the maxim. To confirm this suspicion, I typed "fashions fade" instead of "fashion passes" into the Google search bar. I immediately got a list of suggestions, all variants on "fashions fade, style is eternal"--which is exactly what I was expecting. If you're going to track down the original quote, you should certainly consider this version as well. Interestingly, the attribution on this one is almost universally to Yves Saint Laurent. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Many thanks to Charlie and Chris. > > The OED has an entry for "mode" that shows it has been used in English > with a sense derived from the French word for many years. > > mode, n. > II. In senses derived from French. > 7. a. A prevailing fashion, custom, practice, or style, esp. one > characteristic of a particular place or period. > > Admittedly, the OED gloss mentions fashion and style, the two words > that the modern aphorism is attempting to distinguish. > > OED citations for mode begin in 1642. Here are the cites in 1884 and 1920. > > 1884 W. C. Smith Kildrostan 69 We are grown To be a sort of > dandies in religion, Affecting the last mode. > 1920 Amer. Woman Aug. 7/1 In the neckwear departments the racks > are hung . . with madeup collars which attest the prevailing mode. > > Chris Waigl wrote: > > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted > > all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the > > help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? > > Excellent question. I examined the McCall's interview and was unable > to determine if it was conducted in French, English, or a mixture. The > prefatory comments do not indicate the language spoken and do not > mention a translator. > > While answering an interview question Chanel mentioned the Duke of > Westminster and indicated that she was able to speak some English > because she did so with him. > > (Begin excerpt) > I was lucky to have known the Duke. Fourteen years. That is a long > time, no? He was shy and timid, too, but I have never felt more > protected. He was solid and comfortable. He understood me???except for > my working, of course. He gave me peace. He was generous. He was > simple. We talked half in English, half in French. "I don't want you > to learn English," he said, "and discover there is nothing in the > conversation you hear around us." > > The clips I found on YouTube show Chanel speaking only French. The > clips are from interviews performed in 1969 and 1970. > > It is possible that the entire McCall's interview was conducted in > French and the interviewer Joseph Barry translated the words into > English. I am not sure. Perhaps Barry was familiar with the English > word "mode" and thought it would be perfect for the translation. > > Alternatively, Coco Chanel presented the aphorism while she was > speaking English. > > Thanks for pointing out "la mode passe, le style reste". I can find > many instances of this French phrase but oddly none of them appear in > 1965 or earlier. This may be an artifact of the poor coverage of > French periodicals in the databases I access. > > If someone finds and shares a citation in French or English for this > saying before 1965 that would be very kind. > > Garson > > On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: > > > > On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > >> [...] > >> Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant > >> phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) > >> > >> 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) > >> 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an > interview) > >> 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) > >> 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) > >> > >> Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. > >> > >> Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview > >> with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, > >> Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on > >> paper) > > > > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English > and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or by > a bilingual interviewer? > > > > The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode > passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Coco > Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) > repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in a > semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the > most straightforward translation I can think of. > > > > So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular > interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) > might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correction. > The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an > intermediary. > > > > Chris Waigl > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 18:04:06 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:04:06 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: When I first asked the question whether "cock" might be unisex for these speakers, it was out of curiosity and without a view as to what the answer would be. As I think about it further, however, it seems to me that there must have been at least some speakers for whom "cock" was unisex. After all, we know that the term crossed the gender barrier, and it's hard to see how else that could have happened, even though the evidence seems to be that, for most speakers, "cock" is specifically masculine or feminine. The existence of unisex terms such as "privates" shows that we don't have to reach too far to find terms for genitalia that do cross the gender line. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:55 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I think most all of us would guess the same. "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, they're technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent or similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and is other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) for both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but will it catch on?) JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > I don't see how we could know. > > In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" in an > unambiguously hetero context. > > > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as was > > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, in > the > > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between male > and > > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, which, > from > > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, would, I > > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague > euphemisms > > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") > > or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms like > "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out unisex). > > > LH > > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Baker, John" > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > >> > >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as opposed > >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > >> > >> > >> John Baker > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf > >> Of Jonathan Lighter > >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > >> > >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy song > >> sung > >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil seems to > >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He learned > >> many > >> songs from his father: > >> > >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > >> > >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > >> > >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to Bishop > >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. Presumably > >> the > >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > >> > >> JL > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:07:28 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:07:28 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' Message-ID: A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our Digital Library." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:22:07 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:22:07 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161804.p7GAqX0Q016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >there must have been at least some speakers for whom "cock" was unisex. But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone eccentrics? I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is always the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all depends on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms were generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, please post. People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., everybody on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word in a unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single meaning: "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: in other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The basic terms are what we're talking about, no? "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And those are what we're talking about. Of course, that's only my opinion. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > When I first asked the question whether "cock" might be unisex > for these speakers, it was out of curiosity and without a view as to > what the answer would be. As I think about it further, however, it > seems to me that there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. After all, we know that the term crossed the gender > barrier, and it's hard to see how else that could have happened, even > though the evidence seems to be that, for most speakers, "cock" is > specifically masculine or feminine. The existence of unisex terms such > as "privates" shows that we don't have to reach too far to find terms > for genitalia that do cross the gender line. > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:55 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > Larry, I meant we can't know about this particular example. But as > acculturated native speakers of English we have a right to guess, and I > think most all of us would guess the same. > > "Genitalia" and "genitals" are apposite but different. As you say, > they're > technical terms, which means they're employed (if you'll pardon the > expression) dispassionately, and quasi-euphemistically. > > More to the point, I think: It's difficult for me to imagine any parent > or > similar natural language-source (who is a native speaker of English and > is > other than Humpty Dumpty) teaching an infant to use one word (any word) > for > both organs routinely and consistently as the proper designator of both. > (Yeah, in some postmodern household somewhere it must be happening: but > will it catch on?) > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > > > I don't see how we could know. > > > > In principle we could, if we had a reference to "their/our two cocks" > in an > > unambiguously hetero context. > > > > > > But isn't the assertion that it has a truly unisex denotation (as > was > > > suggested a while back) still merely speculative? Except, perhaps, > in > > the > > > minds of some poststructuralists, the real-life distinction between > male > > and > > > female physiology seems incontrovertible. > > > > > > I've never met or heard of anybody who used the word that way, > which, > > from > > > the point of view of the known history of English sexual terms, > would, I > > > believe, be unprecedented. (I'm not counting intentionally vague > > euphemisms > > > with inclusive standard meanings like "thing" and "business.") > > > > or technicalia like "genitals" or "genitalia" itself and euphemisms > like > > "privates" or "pudenda" (the latter of which I assume started out > unisex). > > > > > > LH > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Baker, John > wrote: > > > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > >> ----------------------- > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > > >> Poster: "Baker, John" > > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >> > > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > >> > > >> Do we know if "cock" here means the vulva or vagina, as > opposed > > >> to masculine or feminine genitalia generally? > > >> > > >> > > >> John Baker > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > > Behalf > > >> Of Jonathan Lighter > > >> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2011 9:50 PM > > >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > >> Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >> > > >> Here is an unquestionable English ex., from a centuries-old bawdy > song > > >> sung > > >> in 1978 by Danny Brazil, a Traveller in Gloucestershire. Brazil > seems to > > >> have been born around 1910. He is described as "illiterate." He > learned > > >> many > > >> songs from his father: > > >> > > >> "She run downstairs for to piddle in the pot. > > >> Up jumped the little crabfish and caught her by the cock." > > >> > > >> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/brazils.htm#fam > > >> > > >> I've seen dozens of variant texts of this song, dating back to > Bishop > > >> Percy's ms., but this is the only one that has this rhyme. > Presumably > > >> the > > >> couplet originated in the nineteenth century. > > >> > > >> JL > > >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:22:24 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:22:24 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' In-Reply-To: <201108161807.p7GApMf1016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If you search for "tranche of data" you find a lot of use in the UK and Ireland in the past few years. The link you provided is Irish. DanG On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: > > http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ > > "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our Digital > Library." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:27:52 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:27:52 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' In-Reply-To: <201108161822.p7GF6fJN023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But why use an opaque, jargonesque borrowing from the opaque jargon of an unrelated field when a simple word like "bundle" or "package" or "installment" will do? Oh. The question answers itself. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If you search for "tranche of data" you find a lot of use in the UK > and Ireland in the past few years. The link you provided is Irish. > DanG > > > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: > > > > > http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ > > > > "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our > Digital > > Library." > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 18:32:03 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:32:03 -0400 Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' In-Reply-To: <201108161828.p7GF6fMN023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Bundle and package are technical terms with other meanings. Tranche is more accurate than installment when data is being sliced but not transmitted. It also has an older history of use to describe portions of data, so it is not strictly a borrowing. DanG On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But why use an opaque, jargonesque borrowing from the opaque jargon of an > unrelated field when a simple word like "bundle" or "package" or > "installment" will do? > > Oh. The question answers itself. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> If you search for "tranche of data" you find a lot of use in the UK >> and Ireland in the past few years. The link you provided is Irish. >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> > Subject: tranche = 'an installment of any kind' >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > A couple of years ago even the economic sense was obscure. But now: >> > >> > >> http://www.itma.ie/digitallibrary/print-collection/charlotte-milligan-fox/ >> > >> > "1 August 2011: The latest tranche of material has been added to our >> Digital >> > Library." >> > >> > JL >> > >> > -- >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the >> truth." >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 16 19:07:38 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:07:38 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > eccentrics? > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is always > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all depends > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms were > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, please > post. > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., everybody > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word in a > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single meaning: > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: in > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The basic > terms are what we're talking about, no? And "genitals", "genitalia", "reproductive organs", etc. don't count because they're scientific/technical, presumably, even if not euphemisms as such. > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. I'm not sure how we could determine that definitively, depending on the perceptions/associations surveyed. > And > those are what we're talking about. Another argument for Jon's position is precisely that very much like "limb", "privates" isn't a basic level category in Rosch's sense (supported by various empirical studies), but a superordinate. Nobody would announce "Ouch, I broke my limb" or "Why did you punch me in the (upper left) limb?" While "Chris kicked Robin in the genitals/privates" would work, it's only for the R- or at least PG13-rated nature of the basic level designations (or because "privates" is more general, precisely what may be needed when one doesn't know exactly which private was affected; "crotch" is sometimes handy for this purpose as well, or sometimes even "crouch", which does rhyme with "ouch"). By the same token, "person", while usefully sex-neutral for various purposes, isn't a basic level category either, which makes it less likely to succeed in various contexts as a replacement for "man"/"woman". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 19:25:34 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:25:34 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those speakers did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" to be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any people who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender line? John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" >there must have been at least some speakers for whom "cock" was unisex. But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone eccentrics? I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is always the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all depends on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms were generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, please post. People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., everybody on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word in a unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single meaning: "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: in other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The basic terms are what we're talking about, no? "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And those are what we're talking about. Of course, that's only my opinion. JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 19:38:31 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:38:31 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JL is here just (in the classic sense) begging the question. In terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive association," arms and hands and legs and feet are "more similar" in ways that penises and vaginas are not, but in terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" arms and legs are "less similar" in other ways that penises and vaginas are not. Ordinarily, in everyday life we "emotively" have ass our #1 buddies "right-hand men" not "right-footed men," and most of us operate the keyboard in "everyday" life with appendages that are attached to the ends of our arms, not with our feet. Nobody gets athletes hand or charley horse of the arm, only athlete's foot and charley horse of the leg.. Penises and "vaginas" are similar, however, in their "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" with carnal pleasure, urination, and venereal diseases. On Aug 16, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And > those are what we're talking about. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 16 19:49:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:49:02 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > JL is here just (in the classic sense) begging the question. > > In terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive association," arms and hands and legs and feet are "more similar" in ways that penises and vaginas are not, but in terms of "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" arms and legs are "less similar" in other ways that penises and vaginas are not. Ordinarily, in everyday life we "emotively" have ass our #1 buddies "right-hand men" not "right-footed men," and most of us operate the keyboard in "everyday" life with appendages that are attached to the ends of our arms, not with our feet. Nobody gets athletes hand or charley horse of the arm, only athlete's foot and charley horse of the leg.. Penises and "vaginas" are similar, however, in their "everyday perceptions and emotive associations" with carnal pleasure, urination, and venereal diseases. > > Which was one of the points I was trying to make (perhaps too tersely) in my own previous message. But as also mentioned there, the "limb" analogy works to Jon's benefit, not detriment, since that too is a case of moving up one level from the salient basic level to avoid specificity for one of a number of reasons. It's not an accident that "limb" served as a replacement of "leg" in the Victorian era (even for "piano limbs"), or at least in our historical mythography of that era; it's essentially the "privates" of the jointed-appendage field. LH > On Aug 16, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of >> everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. And >> those are what we're talking about. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 20:27:50 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:27:50 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161925.p7GIiuf9023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender line? Wow! Argumentum ignoratio! But one explanation might be a distinct etymon. > It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." Sure it is. Because neither "prick" nor "pintle" also meant "vagina' at the same time. But perhaps I misapprehend the argument. And do we know that "prick" was a euphemism rather than a vulgarism? (Not that I'm sure it has any bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word.) OED calls "prick" "coarse slang" but doesn't label "pintle." JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming > that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my > wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those speakers > did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" to > be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested > fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." > > Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any people > who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for its > transmigration across the gender line? > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > eccentrics? > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is > always > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all > depends > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms > were > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, > please > post. > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., > everybody > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word > in a > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single > meaning: > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: > in > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The > basic > terms are what we're talking about, no? > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. > And > those are what we're talking about. > > Of course, that's only my opinion. > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 16 20:33:45 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:33:45 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a contrary position. On the other hand, the historical record is quite clear. In some dialects of American English, COCK meant 'vagina' and (so it has been reported) 'penis' as well. JL apparently asserts that this could not possibly be true--that nobody could have believed that the term to refer to both. Are you saying that people somewhere in history "began moving up one level from the salient basic level" of COCK = 'penis' to COCK = 'penis+vagina'? I don't see how that supports JL's assertion--it seems to me that it contradicts it, since it REQUIRES that there were people for whom COCK = 'penis+vagina', which JL apparently explicitly denies. Whatever the historical ordering of linguistic change, there is no doubt that, at least as recently as the mid-20th Century, there were people for whom COCK referred to 'vagina'; and there have been serious scholarly reports that, for some of those people, COCK referred to genitalia without regard to the sexual kind of genitalia. The scholarship may be wrong, but a priori arguments that one or another kind of linguistic change "could not have taken place" do not seem to me to hold much promise. My own guess is that COCK = 'penis' came first, that some confusion ensued among people who were not sure just what it referred to, that for some people, COCK came to refer to genitalia in general, while others specialized it for female genitalia, and the latter won out in a few of the generalist communities. But that is just a stands-to-reason guess. A parallel situation perhaps pertains to the verb FUCK. A sentence such as "Chris fucked Pat" (or "Pat fucked for Chris") would mean to some people only that Chris inserted something into Pat. For others, it means no more than "Chris and Pat fucked," i.e., the inserter and the insertee are not entailed by "Chris fucked Pat" (though perhaps still implied, if not entailed, by the rather archaic-sounding "Pat fucked for Chris"). On Aug 16, 2011, at 3:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Which was one of the points I was trying to make (perhaps too tersely) in my own previous message. But as also mentioned there, the "limb" analogy works to Jon's benefit, not detriment, since that too is a case of moving up one level from the salient basic level to avoid specificity for one of a number of reasons. It's not an accident that "limb" served as a replacement of "leg" in the Victorian era (even for "piano limbs"), or at least in our historical mythography of that era; it's essentially the "privates" of the jointed-appendage field. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:17:33 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:17:33 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <201108162034.p7GIRDEN016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I = > understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that = > today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of = > COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are = > allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but = > it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a = > contrary position. > FWIW, "get some _leg_" absolutely = "get some pussy" in BE slang. OTOH, the comparison of a penis to a baby's arm is, IME, strictly literary. And also, FWIW, where necessary, I translate _cock_ into "dick" / "penis" in the same way that I translate, e.g. _yard_ into "dick" / "penis" where necessary. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Tue Aug 16 21:28:51 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:28:51 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: A Message-ID: I don't think this is argumentum ignoratio elenchi (or is there some other argumentum ignoratio you had in mind?). I'm specifically responding to the question, which I raised originally, whether there were people for whom "cock" is a unisex term, so I'm not failing to address the issue in question. I believe it's a valid line of inquiry to proceed from effect ("cock" means the masculine genitalia for some and the feminine genitalia for others) to plausible causes. Jon suggests a possible explanation might be a distinct etymon. That strikes me as unlikely, but of course other examples of confusion from similar but distinct etymons could be cited, so it certainly isn't impossible. There seems to be some uncertainty as to the etymon for cock=genitalia anyway. My point with "prick" and "pintle" was simply that, historically, there were some people for whom "prick" was a euphemism, which supports the possibility that there may have been people for whom "cock" was a euphemism. The classic quotation in the OED is from 1655: "The French men call this fish the Asses-prick, and Dr Wotton termeth it grosly the Pintle fish." I agree with Jon that this has limited bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word; I don't consider it very important whether "cock" was a euphemism or not. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "Cock" >But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender line? Wow! Argumentum ignoratio! But one explanation might be a distinct etymon. > It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." Sure it is. Because neither "prick" nor "pintle" also meant "vagina' at the same time. But perhaps I misapprehend the argument. And do we know that "prick" was a euphemism rather than a vulgarism? (Not that I'm sure it has any bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word.) OED calls "prick" "coarse slang" but doesn't label "pintle." JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- > > I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming > that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my > wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those speakers > did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" to > be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested > fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." > > Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any people > who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for its > transmigration across the gender line? > > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >there must have been at least some speakers for whom > "cock" was unisex. > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > eccentrics? > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is > always > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all > depends > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms > were > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of a > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, > please > post. > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., > everybody > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the word > in a > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single > meaning: > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: > in > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The > basic > terms are what we're talking about, no? > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms of > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and vaginas. > And > those are what we're talking about. > > Of course, that's only my opinion. > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:29:01 2011 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 16:29:01 -0500 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <201108162119.p7GIiuPV023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In the 80's in Southern California, my mixed bag of friends on the carnival circuit were always offering "to lick your leg" ie whatever sex act was being impulsively thought of at the time. Had nothing to do with legs--or not much. We all used slang from all over the country and picked up whatever was being said locally as well. Darla 2011/8/16 Wilson Gray > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Re: arm:leg =? penis:vagina > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Ronald Butters > wrote: > > Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I = > > understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that = > > today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of > = > > COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are = > > allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but > = > > it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a = > > contrary position. > > > > FWIW, > > "get some _leg_" > > absolutely = > > "get some pussy" > > in BE slang. > > OTOH, the comparison of a penis to a baby's arm is, IME, strictly literary. > > And also, FWIW, where necessary, I translate > > _cock_ > > into > > "dick" / "penis" > > in the same way that I translate, e.g. > > _yard_ > > into > > "dick" / "penis" > > where necessary. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:43:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:43:34 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108161733.p7GF6f6D023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for your response Victor. The original post on this thread included the aphorism "Fashions fade, style is eternal" attributed to Yves Saint Laurent but searching further makes sense. (The punctuation in these aphorisms varies. Sometimes a comma splice is used as noted by Chris.) Another variant attributed to YSL "Fashion passes; style remains" was listed in the first post. The earliest YSL version I have evidence for is dated 1975 and is listed in The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations: Fashions fade, style is eternal. YVES SAINT LAURENT (b. 1916). French couturier. Andy Warhol's Interview (New York, 13 April 1975) I do not know if the interview in Interview was conducted in French or English because I have not seen this cite on paper. In the 1966 novel "Lord Malquist & Mr. Moon" the prominent playwright Tom Stoppard wrote: You see, he understood that substance is ephemeral but style is eternal... which may not be a solution to the realities of life but it is a workable alternative. Garson On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 1:33 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) > Question about French version > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm certainly with Chris on this one, but I had a different concern. "Style= > " > has multiple glosses even in English and I am not convinced that the French > [likely] original would correspond to the same English word in this context= > . > On the other hand, the version "styles change; style does not" actually > communicates the message rather well. In particular, "last year's fashion" > can be communicated as "last year's style"--both captured rather neatly wit= > h > "mode". But the "style" in the counterpoint is something entirely > different--it's either the sense of a personal style (how one presents > oneself) or the sense of style that a designer projects through all his/her > lines. A French speaker would have to explain whether such distinction even > exists in French, but that distinction may well be the root of the maxim. > > To confirm this suspicion, I typed "fashions fade" instead of "fashion > passes" into the Google search bar. I immediately got a list of suggestions= > , > all variants on "fashions fade, style is eternal"--which is exactly what I > was expecting. If you're going to track down the original quote, you should > certainly consider this version as well. Interestingly, the attribution on > this one is almost universally to Yves Saint Laurent. > > VS-) > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > >> >> Many thanks to Charlie and Chris. >> >> The OED has an entry for "mode" that shows it has been used in English >> with a sense derived from the French word for many years. >> >> mode, n. >> II. In senses derived from French. >> 7. a. A prevailing fashion, custom, practice, or style, esp. one >> characteristic of a particular place or period. >> >> Admittedly, the OED gloss mentions fashion and style, the two words >> that the modern aphorism is attempting to distinguish. >> >> OED citations for mode begin in 1642. Here are the cites in 1884 and 1920= > . >> >> 1884 W. C. Smith Kildrostan 69 We are grown To be a sort of >> dandies in religion, Affecting the last mode. >> 1920 Amer. Woman Aug. 7/1 In the neckwear departments the racks >> are hung . . with madeup collars which attest the prevailing mode. >> >> Chris Waigl wrote: >> > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted >> > all in English and not, for example, partly in French with the >> > help of an interpreter or by a bilingual interviewer? >> >> Excellent question. I examined the McCall's interview and was unable >> to determine if it was conducted in French, English, or a mixture. The >> prefatory comments do not indicate the language spoken and do not >> mention a translator. >> >> While answering an interview question Chanel mentioned the Duke of >> Westminster and indicated that she was able to speak some English >> because she did so with him. >> >> (Begin excerpt) >> I was lucky to have known the Duke. Fourteen years. That is a long >> time, no? He was shy and timid, too, but I have never felt more >> protected. He was solid and comfortable. He understood me=E2=80=94except = > for >> my working, of course. He gave me peace. He was generous. He was >> simple. We talked half in English, half in French. "I don't want you >> to learn English," he said, "and discover there is nothing in the >> conversation you hear around us." >> >> The clips I found on YouTube show Chanel speaking only French. The >> clips are from interviews performed in 1969 and 1970. >> >> It is possible that the entire McCall's interview was conducted in >> French and the interviewer Joseph Barry translated the words into >> English. I am not sure. Perhaps Barry was familiar with the English >> word "mode" and thought it would be perfect for the translation. >> >> Alternatively, Coco Chanel presented the aphorism while she was >> speaking English. >> >> Thanks for pointing out "la mode passe, le style reste". I can find >> many instances of this French phrase but oddly none of them appear in >> 1965 or earlier. This may be an artifact of the poor coverage of >> French periodicals in the databases I access. >> >> If someone finds and shares a citation in French or English for this >> saying before 1965 that would be very kind. >> >> Garson >> >> On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Chris Waigl wrote: >> >> >> > On 15 Aug 2011, at 06:47, Garson O'Toole wrote: >> > >> >> [...] >> >> Here is a list in reverse chronological order of some variant >> >> phrasings. (Some dates have not yet been verified.) >> >> >> >> 2011 Fashions fade, style is eternal. (attrib Yves Saint Laurent) >> >> 2005 Fashion passes; style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1995 Fashion fades. Only style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1994 Fashion fades, only style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1985 Fashion fades but style remains the same. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1983 Fashion passes; style remains. (Yves Saint Laurent during an >> interview) >> >> 1977 Fashion passes, style remains. (attrib Chanel) >> >> 1965 Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel during an interview) >> >> >> >> Here is some additional context for the 1965 cite. >> >> >> >> Cite: 1965 November, McCall's, An Interview With Chanel, [Interview >> >> with Gabrielle Chanel conducted by Joseph Barry], Start Page 121, >> >> Quote page 170, Column 4, McCall Pub. Co., New York. (Verified on >> >> paper) >> > >> > Are you completely certain this interview was conducted all in English >> and not, for example, partly in French with the help of an interpreter or= > by >> a bilingual interviewer? >> > >> > The quote, as a quick google confirms, is noted in French as "la mode >> passe, le style reste". And in one article at least it is claimed that Co= > co >> Chanel was fond of (or rather, was in the habit of or was not tiring of) >> repeating this as a maxim(*). "Fashion passes, style remains" (or put in = > a >> semicolon if you want to avoid the comma splice in English) would be the >> most straightforward translation I can think of. >> > >> > So if she were to have repeated it in English in this particular >> interview after having said it in French, then "mode" (in the EN version) >> might be a sub-optimall gloss of the FR "mode", with "fashion" a correcti= > on. >> The gloss might have been authored by herself, the interviewer or an >> intermediary. >> > >> > Chris Waigl >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:51:47 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:51:47 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch Message-ID: Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man switch, dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). The 1974 original of "Taking of Pelham One Two Three" refers to "deadman feature", which is a rig standard on trains and some buses that requires the operator to exert constant pressure or the vehicle would come to a stop. In pop culture--particularly in films involving terrorists or bank robbers with self-strapped bombs--a "dead man's switch" is a lever on a remote detonator that has to be depressed to prevent an immediate detonation (or, occasionally, it is a button that must always be pressed). It's the equivalent of a spring-lever on a hand-grenade--which allows the grenade to be thrown safely once the pin is removed. I am not sure how widespread the term is in the military, but, if it is, it may well have been reverse distribution from pop-culture, which acquired the terminology from public transportation (more specifically, apparently, from electric trains). The OED /does/ have an entry for the train switch, but it's somewhat different. Dead man's handle > In an electric train, a controlling handle which must be held in position > for the current to pass, so that the train is automatically brought to a > standstill should the driver release his grasp through illness or accident. > So dead man's device, dead man's knob, dead man's pedal, dead man's treadle. > Also transf. I suppose, device and feature are interchangeable in their vagueness. But there is still no "switch". There is also "deadman brake", which is what I heard from operators on the MBTA Green Line (the T). The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same year. http://goo.gl/1aOh4 Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English Edition). Volume 22 (9). September 1908 Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By H. Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's switch) so > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle would > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. Volume 22(11). November 1908 Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. Uytborck. p. 1217 > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch (i.e. > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). Note, however, that the authors of /both/ articles were Belgian, which may well be an issue worth investigating (unless earlier instances are found). http://goo.gl/1ZGSF Electric Trains. By Reginald Ernest Dickinson. 1927 [snippet view: title page shows Edward Arnold & Co. 1927] p. 67 > The driver then depressed the Dead Man's Switch with his right hand, which > must remain on the controller handle throughout all driving operations, and > pushes the reverser key to the position marked "forward". p. 68 > ...[Cut]ting off all power to the train the opening of the Dead Man's > Switch has the effect of applying the brakes by the following means. Interestingly, a sentence from p. 62 of this same book is cited in the OED for reverser n. 1.c. (I guess, that confirms the date.) The use diversified very quickly--it could be an ignition switch on a racing motorcycle, fork-lift starter, a shut-off valve on an automatic welder or a fuel system for filling airplanes, a paddle on the steering mechanism of a motor boat, a buoy-releasing mechanism on a submarine, a quick-release switch for switching over from "receive" to "transmit" on a ham radio, etc. A couple of samples: There is a picture and construction plan for a dead man's switch in 1974 Popular Mechanics. (There are similar devices in 1957 Popular Mechanics and Popular Science.) http://goo.gl/ZUVpu Popular Mechanics. May 1974 Backpack paint-removing machine. By Parry C. Yob. p. 154 > The purpose of this dead-man's switch is to provide a safety feature when > you're working from ladders and scaffoldings. It also makes an appearance in the 1970 DOD appropriations hearings (1969) in a description of locator buoy for a submarine. http://goo.gl/YcgWe > The system will release the buoy when ... (3) a dead-man's switch is not > reset by the crew at two hour intervals. The dead-man's switch has an alarm > which warns the crew several minutes before release. The dead-man's switch > ensures release of the buoy should the entire crew become incapacitated. I am not including other GB hits (from 1932 to 1980--more train entries from the 1920s), but there is a total of 94 (with duplicates) of them pre-1980--and that's just for "dead-man's-switch". I ignored the rest, for the moment. But one thing that does not appear is explosives. So the pop-culture terrorist "dead man's switch" appeared much later. Another pair of expressions that is related--in both senses--is "fail-safe" and "fail-deadly". Fail-safe is very common as a noun, and there is a fail-safe entry in the OED, but it's a verb under fail v. 4.b. There is no entry for fail-deadly, which is the equivalent of a doomsday machine (or bomb or device--the expression going back to at least 1606)--"fail-deadly" is old jargon for the Cold War feature of a retaliatory nuclear strike in case that the command structure is wiped out. It was meant as a joke on "fail-safe", which is why it is puzzling that the latter noun has no OED entry. Again, I have not tracked the specific origin or distribution of either expression. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 21:59:26 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:59:26 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108162143.p7GLRQSj023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Yes, of course! You started with the variant of "fashions fade", but it included the "style remains the same" as counterpoint. And the citation for YSL "eternal" was only from 2011. But this is the version I find more common in pop culture and it would be interesting to track down if this version is ever attributed to anyone else. Either way, the collocation of fashion and style--in this context--seems to be ubiquitously French. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Thanks for your response Victor. The original post on this thread > included the aphorism "Fashions fade, style is eternal" attributed to > Yves Saint Laurent but searching further makes sense. (The punctuation > in these aphorisms varies. Sometimes a comma splice is used as noted > by Chris.) Another variant attributed to YSL "Fashion passes; style > remains" was listed in the first post. > > The earliest YSL version I have evidence for is dated 1975 and is > listed in The Columbia Dictionary of Quotations: > > Fashions fade, style is eternal. > YVES SAINT LAURENT (b. 1916). French couturier. Andy Warhol's > Interview (New York, 13 April 1975) > > I do not know if the interview in Interview was conducted in French or > English because I have not seen this cite on paper. > > > In the 1966 novel "Lord Malquist & Mr. Moon" the prominent playwright > Tom Stoppard wrote: > > You see, he understood that substance is ephemeral but style is > eternal... which may not be a solution to the realities of life but it > is a workable alternative. > > Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Aug 16 22:06:14 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:06:14 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162129.p7GLRQQx023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There is a 'unisex' 1867 Doten reference, which was noted on this list a few months ago. <> I think at least one other clearly 'unisex' quotation has appeared on this list, but I can't find it now. No matter how strange it may seem to some of us moderns, it appears that "cock" was 'unisex' for some in the past (wouldn't amaze me if it remains so for somebody somewhere). -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 22:09:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:09:41 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108161925.p7GIiuf9023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > I don't actually know that there ever were any people > who had "cock" as a unisex term. ? But if not, how do you account for its > transmigration across the gender line? FWIW, IME, _cock_ is the most commonly-used term for all aspects of the female genitalia in BE. E.g., it's the term that used in dirty jokes, not _pussy, ass, (that (good)) stuff, that thing_, etc.. Among black men - among those of us of a certain age, at least - _cunt, cunny, twat, gash, love-glove_, etc. are all literary terms. "Transmigration across the gender line" may have occurred. But, for the first quarter-century or so of my life, I had no idea that _cock_ could possibly mean "penis." Words like _joint, rod, bone, (the very rare) magivny-giver_, and others that'll come to mind as soon as I press Send, are used for "penis," but _cock_ never is. Like using "Jesus (Christ)!" or "Son of a bitch!" as exclamations, using _cock_ to mean "penis" would say to the hearer, "I spend a lot of time *socially* in the company of white people. It's not the case that I merely *see* them in class, on the team, or at work." Of course, that's not as rare today as it was in the '40's to the early '70's. But it's still quite extraordinary. IAC, using _cock_ to mean "penis" feels to me the same as using, e.g., the Russian word _khui_ in that meaning. It's foreign. _Cock_ isn't unisex by any stretch of the imagination. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Tue Aug 16 22:12:47 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:12:47 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <201108162129.p7GLRQR3023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/16/2011 5:29 PM, Darla Wells wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Darla Wells > Subject: Re: arm:leg =? penis:vagina > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In the 80's in Southern California, my mixed bag of friends on the carnival > circuit were always offering "to lick your leg" ie whatever sex act was > being impulsively thought of at the time. -- I used to hear this sort of thing occasionally from young men/boys in the 1960's. IIRC the usual application was along the lines of "Let me lick your leg" (meaning roughly "I find you attractive") or "I want to lick her leg" (meaning roughly "I find her attractive"). I think it was generally light/humorous, and I don't know exactly what "leg" meant (if anything) although there are the obvious possibilities. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 22:14:06 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:14:06 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162207.p7GKaeTO016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks, Doug. I won't mention that it's in HDAS I, though not defined as unisex. It illustrates the female nuance. The circuits are obviously burning out. Trust no one. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is a 'unisex' 1867 Doten reference, which was noted on this list a > few months ago. > > < bully.>> > > I think at least one other clearly 'unisex' quotation has appeared on > this list, but I can't find it now. > > No matter how strange it may seem to some of us moderns, it appears that > "cock" was 'unisex' for some in the past (wouldn't amaze me if it > remains so for somebody somewhere). > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 22:37:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 18:37:02 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I really got a laugh out of this find because it is almost diametrically opposite from the fashion quotes: http://goo.gl/m8lU4 Roman life in Pliny's time. By Maurice Pellisson. 1897 p. 75 > It is indeed always the same story; beggars of Athens, beggars of Rome, > beggars of Paris--forlorn always, in all countries, your hovels have no > history. The houses where people die of cold are all built in the same > fashion and their style is eternal. Would anyone be surprised if I said that this book is a translation from French? It is. Here's another interesting early variant--that predates both Coco and YSL! I don't know what caused this, but I spontaneously replaced "is eternal" with "endures" in the Google search string. The results were shocking. http://goo.gl/R35VM The Ohio Architect, Engineer and Builder. Volume 18(1). July 1911 [The talk took place in Spokane on June 5, 1911.] No American Architecture. Archibald G. Rigg Tells Spokane, Wash., Architectural Club that the Name Is a Misnomer. p. 11/2 > > Of the many things entering into the different architectural styles, the > influence of individuals has counted least. One generation of builders has > taken up the work where its predecessor stopped. The fashions of > architecture perish ; style endures. Rigg's talk was published nearly in full. http://goo.gl/QWfcV Architect and Engineer. Volume 25(3). July 1911 p. 61 I was looking for a French connection here too, but did not find one. And it did not originate with Rigg!!! http://goo.gl/j7G21 American Renaissance: A Review of Domestic Architecture. By Joy Wheeler Dow. 1904 > The fashions of architecture?they perish. Style endures. American Home (vol. 2?) from 1929 (verified internally, but not on paper) gives a preview, but with a blank snipped: http://goo.gl/7U27P > Fads come and go. Style endures. Another snippet from supposedly 1949. http://goo.gl/bn0Bh You and Your Personality: A Guide to Effective Living. By Esther Eberstadt Brooke. 1949 [The date is on the copyright page, but the snippet does not correspond to preview text.] > Do justice to your good points and don't penalize your bad ones by calling > attention to them with clothes that are not for such as you. Choose ? and > stick to? the style that is yours. Fashions are fleeting, but style > endures. Now, this one is more interesting as it certainly a book that might have been seen by Coco Chanel. Another one is attributed to Stanley Morrison (1976): "It proves merely that fashion is not only fickle but freakish, whereas great style endures without interruption." VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 16 23:20:19 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:20:19 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162214.p7GIRDOR016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But wait! One ex. doesn't make a speech community. Perhaps Doten used the word one way and his sweetie used it in the other. Thus the seeming unisex "meaning" would simply be for the nonce. Just a hypothesis. But the real test is this: if Doten's usage really was typical of him, presumably it reflected that also hypothetical speech community where the usage really was ordinarily unisex. If that's the case, where are their descendants? Do any of us naturally and ordinarily use the word in a unisex way? (Even better: who uses unisex "cock" but then uses other words to specify which sort?) I didn't catch the unisex potential of the Doten ex. when I found it 15 or 20 years ago because the concept was unthinkable. To me. As a representative of a speech community. At any rate: where are the people with unselfconscious unisex usage and, equally to the point, how many are there and, if any, how many of them are over, say, thirty? Dissertation topic anyone? JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks, Doug. > > I won't mention that it's in HDAS I, though not defined as unisex. It > illustrates the female nuance. > > The circuits are obviously burning out. Trust no one. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > There is a 'unisex' 1867 Doten reference, which was noted on this list a > > few months ago. > > > > < > bully.>> > > > > I think at least one other clearly 'unisex' quotation has appeared on > > this list, but I can't find it now. > > > > No matter how strange it may seem to some of us moderns, it appears that > > "cock" was 'unisex' for some in the past (wouldn't amaze me if it > > remains so for somebody somewhere). > > > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 16 23:41:53 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:41:53 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various combinations.) Joel At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of >course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man switch, >dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). > >... > >The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both >knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same >year. > >http://goo.gl/1aOh4 >Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English >Edition). >Volume 22 (9). September 1908 >Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By H. >Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > > > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's switch) so > > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle would > > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. > >Volume 22(11). November 1908 >Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. >Uytborck. p. 1217 > > > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague > > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch (i.e. > > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). >... ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 17 00:58:31 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 20:58:31 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162320.p7GLRQdF023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/16/2011 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "Cock" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > But wait! > > One ex. doesn't make a speech community. Perhaps Doten used the word one > way and his sweetie used it in the other. Thus the seeming unisex "meaning" > would simply be for the nonce. -- But here's another example, from this list: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1102B&L=ADS-L&D=0&1=ADS-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4&P=46462 <> -- > If that's the case, where are their descendants? .... -- I haven't met any such users of unisex "cock" AFAIK. But that's not to say there are surely none. Some may find unisex "cock" a priori intuitively unlikely, and I find it so myself. Still, there is some indication that it exists/existed. It may be that here-and-now intuitions apply imperfectly to other milieux. In particular, I would expect little standardization of informal words which are very seldom uttered, and maybe in some times and places and social circles sex organs were not an everyday subject of casual conversation. For comparison, here is a reported case of "chinchin" (generally = "penis") recommended as a term for "vagina" by Japanese education authorities: http://www.wowasis.com/travelblog/?p=2911 ... although I'm not 100% sure the source is 100% impeccable .... -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 17 01:05:35 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:05:35 -0400 Subject: arm:leg =? penis:vagina In-Reply-To: <4401372B-C662-4BC1-9812-D4730A1D56C9@aol.com> Message-ID: On Aug 16, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > Larry, I don't understand how this "supports" JL's argument. As I understand his point, it is in part that it is extremely unlikely that today anybody would decide to revise their previously masculine sense of COCK to extend it to females as well (except for weird people who are allegedly motivated by "postmodernism"). I don't disagree with that, but it is irrelevant in that, so far as I know, nobody would support a contrary position. Setting the record straight: My argument supported Jon's because my point did not in fact touch on the question of whether COCK itself might have unisex uses, but on Jon's separate (but related) argument that the words we might think of as unisex terms for genitalia tend to be either euphemisms (like "privates") or technical (like "genitalia") and not everyday colloquial terms. The analogy (as in the subject line above) was then made to "limb", and my point (drawing on Rosch's cognitive psychological framework) was that in both the case of "privates" and the case of "limb" we're dealing not just with euphemisms but with superordinate rather than basic level terms. I wasn't referring to the history of COCK per se on this, although the Doten feeling-of-each-other's-cocks passage (which I'd also forgotten, even though I've cited it in two papers) would support your position on COCK straddling the gender line for some, as well as crossing it in one direction or the other diachronically. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 01:47:55 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:47:55 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108162342.p7GLRQfT023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, we know it wasn't Casey Jones, who had his fatal accident in 1900, after the Illinois Central had moved the main line to NOLA from Jackson to Memphis, although Jones did a lot of his railroading around Jackson. Mainly freight, though. DanG On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: dead man's switch > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: > > "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely > to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a > freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about > three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." > > The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for > $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection > here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the > paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. > > The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; > Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not > evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch > something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. > > (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various > combinations.) > > Joel > > At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >>Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of >>course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man switch, >>dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). >> >>... >> >>The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both >>knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same >>year. >> >>http://goo.gl/1aOh4 >>Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English >>Edition). >>Volume 22 (9). September 1908 >>Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By H. >>Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 >> >> > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's switch) so >> > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle would >> > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. >> >>Volume 22(11). November 1908 >>Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. >>Uytborck. p. 1217 >> >> > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague >> > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch (i.e. >> > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). >>... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Aug 17 02:19:05 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 22:19:05 -0400 Subject: Because X Message-ID: A construction I've noticed in the last year or two, and don't recall having seen discussed here, is in the form Because X, where X is a noun rather than the longer phrase you would expect to see. The implication is that the mere mention of X is sufficient for a compelling argument. Sometimes Because and X are separated by "you know." Here's an example from a recent webcomic strip, Something Positive, http://somethingpositive.net/sp08122011.shtml: Donna: Vanessa, can I talk to you? Vanessa: Depends. Do I have to stop eating cookies? Cuz, y'know, cookies. Unfortunately, "because" is a sufficiently common word that it isn't easy to search for the construction. John Baker ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From truespel at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 02:51:15 2011 From: truespel at HOTMAIL.COM (Tom Zurinskas) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 02:51:15 +0000 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108162129.p7GLRQQx023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Makes me think of "Ye Olde Cock Tavern" in London where Dr Johnson put together the first English dictionary. It used to be called "Ye Cock and Bottle". I wonder if cock meant the same things? Sent 2nd time. Don't know what happened to the first. Tom Zurinskas, first Ct 20 yrs, then Tn 3, NJ 33, Fl 9. Learn the alphabet and sounds of US English at justpaste.it/ayk ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:28:51 -0400 > From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM > Subject: Re: "Cock" > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't think this is argumentum ignoratio elenchi (or is there > some other argumentum ignoratio you had in mind?). I'm specifically > responding to the question, which I raised originally, whether there > were people for whom "cock" is a unisex term, so I'm not failing to > address the issue in question. I believe it's a valid line of inquiry > to proceed from effect ("cock" means the masculine genitalia for some > and the feminine genitalia for others) to plausible causes. > > Jon suggests a possible explanation might be a distinct etymon. > That strikes me as unlikely, but of course other examples of confusion > from similar but distinct etymons could be cited, so it certainly isn't > impossible. There seems to be some uncertainty as to the etymon for > cock=genitalia anyway. > > My point with "prick" and "pintle" was simply that, > historically, there were some people for whom "prick" was a euphemism, > which supports the possibility that there may have been people for whom > "cock" was a euphemism. The classic quotation in the OED is from 1655: > "The French men call this fish the Asses-prick, and Dr Wotton termeth it > grosly the Pintle fish." I agree with Jon that this has limited bearing > on the issue of a unisex c-word; I don't consider it very important > whether "cock" was a euphemism or not. > > > John Baker > > > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf > Of Jonathan Lighter > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 4:28 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > >But if not, how do you account for its transmigration across the gender > line? > > Wow! Argumentum ignoratio! > > But one explanation might be a distinct etymon. > > > It's no more unlikely than the historically attested fact that "prick" > was > once a euphemism for "pintle." > > Sure it is. Because neither "prick" nor "pintle" also meant "vagina' at > the > same time. But perhaps I misapprehend the argument. > > And do we know that "prick" was a euphemism rather than a vulgarism? > (Not > that I'm sure it has any bearing on the issue of a unisex c-word.) OED > calls > "prick" "coarse slang" but doesn't label "pintle." > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Baker, John wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Baker, John" > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > > > > I'm not sure why euphemisms don't count, or why we're assuming > > that "cock" is the basic term. I have more than one word in my > > wordhoard with the applicable meaning, and I assume that those > speakers > > did too. For all I know, some of these speakers did consider "cock" > to > > be a euphemism. It's no more unlikely than the historically attested > > fact that "prick" was once a euphemism for "pintle." > > > > Of course, I don't actually know that there ever were any > people > > who had "cock" as a unisex term. But if not, how do you account for > its > > transmigration across the gender line? > > > > > > John Baker > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf > > Of Jonathan Lighter > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 2:22 PM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > > >there must have been at least some speakers for whom > > "cock" was unisex. > > > > But - if there were - were they statistically significant? Or lone > > eccentrics? > > > > I'm not even sure that there *were* any (though of course there is > > always > > the truly odd and historically inconsequential exception). It all > > depends > > on the dialectal distribution of the contrasting pairs. For a genuine > > tradition of unisex usage, you'd need not a community where the terms > > were > > generally accepted as interchangeable. If anyone has any evidence of > a > > speech community of that sort at any time on the history of English, > > please > > post. > > > > People who merely *know* of the synonymy under discussion (e.g., > > everybody > > on this thread), don't count unless they unselfconsciously use the > word > > in a > > unisex manner. In other words, conceive of it as having a single > > meaning: > > "the male or female genitals: used indiscriminately." > > > > Euphemisms like "privates" don't count, because they *are* euphemisms: > > in > > other words, learned as tactful replacements for the basic terms. The > > basic > > terms are what we're talking about, no? > > > > "Limb" is hardly comparable. Arms and legs are more similar in terms > of > > everyday perceptions and emotive associations than penises and > vaginas. > > And > > those are what we're talking about. > > > > Of course, that's only my opinion. > > > > JL > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 03:24:32 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 23:24:32 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108162342.p7GLRQfT023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Could be either a track switch or a switchback (like a road going up a mountain). And all early cites involve "electric trains" of which this is not one (Illinois? Mississippi? no). So it is indeed intriguing, but does not appear to be related. Of course, we'll let Jesse & Co decide. VS-) On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: > > "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely > to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a > freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about > three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." > > The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for > $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection > here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the > paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. > > The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; > Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not > evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch > something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. > > (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various > combinations.) > > Joel > > At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, of > >course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man > switch, > >dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). > > > >... > > > >The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes > both > >knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same > >year. > > > >http://goo.gl/1aOh4 > >Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English > >Edition). > >Volume 22 (9). September 1908 > >Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By > H. > >Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > > > > > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's > switch) so > > > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle > would > > > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. > > > >Volume 22(11). November 1908 > >Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. > >Uytborck. p. 1217 > > > > > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the "Sprague > > > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch > (i.e. > > > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). > >... > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 05:50:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 01:50:02 -0400 Subject: swear word Message-ID: >From one of the Christmas episodes of The Vicar of Dibley (still being rerun on PBS): Choir leader: Why is Jesus special? Boy: His name is a swear word? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 07:14:55 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:14:55 -0700 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) Message-ID: Not in the online OED, the earliest citation on Google Books is from 1985, but it seems questionable. Two more definite citations for the stuffed roll are 1990 and 1992. The Internet does not seem to have a citation until 2001. My spelling is not even listed on the Wikipedia entry, which under "baozi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baozi) lists "bao, bau, humbow, nunu, bausak, pow or pau" as alternatives to "baozi." I cannot find the Chinese characters for humbao, though "bao" is almost certainly ?. GOOGLE BOOKS 1. Humbao - 1985 "Northwest best places: restaurants, lodgings, and tourism in Washington, Oregon, and British Columbia," by David Brewster, Sasquatch Books, page 512 (http://ow.ly/6597L) ---- Peter Swei learned his trade at the hands of his father, a Tokyo restaurateur, and has brought which him recipes for Humbao chicke, sweet and sour pork, and... ---- "Humbao chicken"? Tokyo restaurateur? Is this a misprint for kung pao chicken? 2. hum bao - 1990 "Portland best places: a discriminating guide to Portland's restaurants, lodgings, shopping, nightlife, arts, sights, outings, and annual events," by Stephanie Irving, page 311 (http://ow.ly/6590H) Citation from http://ow.ly/6591m ----- Complement that with hum bao, pot-stickers, or steamed pork pastries, and add a side of fiery kimchi, and lunch takes on bountiful and flavorful dimensions rarely seen in America. ----- 3. humbao - 1992 "Portland Best Places: A Discriminating Guide to Portland's Restaurants, Lodgings, Shopping, Nightlife, Arts, Sights, and Outing," Stephanie Irving, Kim Carlson, page 21 (http://ow.ly/6592I) Citation from http://ow.ly/6593o ----- Of the side dishes, try the humbao, and wander around the corner the sushi rolls aren't bad, either. ----- GOOGLE 4. hum bao - February 1, 2002 http://www.gotowardsdelight.org/recipes/index.html ----- Vegetarian Sausage Buns (kind of like hum bao, but not really) ----- 5. humbao - 2001 http://www.asianamericanfilm.com/archives/000743.html ----- Name: Rabyang Thonden Gyalkhang E-mail: rabyang at yahoo.com Web Page: realitydreamfilms Wow Lily, your 2 mint. was great to watch I really liked it. My short film "Legends of HumBao" will be soon on the web and hope you and others will enjoy this too. Right now the web site is still under construction hope to finish it by Aripl 20th. 04/10/01 23:31 ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 11:22:41 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:22:41 -0400 Subject: Because X In-Reply-To: <201108170219.p7GLRQtn023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've heard this and even used it - humorously only, I hasten to add, in imitation of the teenage-and-under types who do use it. Just when or why I started I can't say, but it hasn't been more than five years or so, possibly less. "The Simpsons" is a conceivable source, but that's only a guess. The construction may never have appeared on "The Simpsons". Until John pointed it out, I'd never even thought of it as a "construction": more of a rhetorical device, rather. To me, "y'know" is probably mandatory. It signals the hilarious inarticulateness of what follows. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Baker, John wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Baker, John" > Subject: Because X > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A construction I've noticed in the last year or two, and don't recall = > having seen discussed here, is in the form Because X, where X is a noun = > rather than the longer phrase you would expect to see. The implication = > is that the mere mention of X is sufficient for a compelling argument. = > Sometimes Because and X are separated by "you know." Here's an example = > from a recent webcomic strip, Something Positive, = > http://somethingpositive.net/sp08122011.shtml: > =20 > Donna: Vanessa, can I talk to you? > =20 > Vanessa: Depends. Do I have to stop eating cookies? Cuz, y'know, = > cookies. > =20 > =20 > Unfortunately, "because" is a sufficiently common word that it isn't = > easy to search for the construction. > =20 > =20 > John Baker > =20 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 11:26:01 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:26:01 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108170324.p7GIRDdd016619@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Let's not forget the Russian "Dead Hand" system. Oh. You haven't heard.... But there's nothing to worry about. They say it's turned off most of the time. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:24 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: dead man's switch > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Could be either a track switch or a switchback (like a road going up a > mountain). And all early cites involve "electric trains" of which this is > not one (Illinois? Mississippi? no). So it is indeed intriguing, but does > not appear to be related. Of course, we'll let Jesse & Co decide. > > VS-) > > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > There is an intriguing item in an 1898 newspaper: > > > > "One little slip of manilla paper, says the Citizen Ledger, is likely > > to be worth $25,000 to the Illinois Central Railroad. Last June a > > freight wreck occurred on the road near Dead Man's Switch, about > > three miles north of Jackson, in which J. M. Quinn was killed." > > > > The article continues to sketchily describe the accident, a suit for > > $25,000 by the "dead man"s widow (I don't think there's a connection > > here) against the railroad, and the potential significance of the > > paper, which contains the engineer's instructions, on the widow's suit. > > > > The Daily Picayune, (New Orleans, LA) Friday, March 11, 1898; pg. 14; > > Issue 46; col C. [19th C. Amer. Newspapers] > > > > Since "Dead Man's Switch" is here a place name, the meaning is not > > evident. It may merely be a place where if someone doesn't switch > > something, someone is likely to be dead soon after. > > > > (This is the only hit in this database for any of Victor's various > > combinations.) > > > > Joel > > > > At 8/16/2011 05:51 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > >Unless I missed something in the search (for which I blame the editors, > of > > >course), the expression is not in the OED in any variation (dead man > > switch, > > >dead men switch, dead men's switch, deadman switch, etc.). > > > > > >... > > > > > >The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes > > both > > >knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the > same > > >year. > > > > > >http://goo.gl/1aOh4 > > >Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association (English > > >Edition). > > >Volume 22 (9). September 1908 > > >Electric Traction by Simple Alternating Current on European Railways. By > > H. > > >Marchand-Thriar. VIII.--The Thomson-Houston Company's System. p. 1023 > > > > > > > The master-controller is fitted with a safety handle (dead man's > > switch) so > > > > arranged that if the driver fell or fainted, his releasing the handle > > would > > > > ensure the current being cut off automatically from all the vehicles. > > > > > >Volume 22(11). November 1908 > > >Notes Taken During a Journey of Enquiry in the United States. By Em. > > >Uytborck. p. 1217 > > > > > > > The cars are equipped with the system of control known as the > "Sprague > > > > General Electric"; the controller is fitted with a dead-man's switch > > (i.e. > > > > it returns to neutral if the driver releases the handle). > > >... > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 11:38:30 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 07:38:30 -0400 Subject: "Cock" In-Reply-To: <201108170059.p7GLRQlV023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We could be approaching the dreaded "angels on a pin" stage of discussion here. The linguistically (rather than psychologically) significant issue isn't whether anyone anywhere uses or used words in this way, it's whether any speech community or statistically significant number of people does. I'll grant that it seems unlikely that Doten, perhaps the only 19th C. American to use blunt sexual terms frequently in a diary that both survived and been published, was also coincidentally an atypical user of "cock" for his place and time. OTOH, the same, um, "bent" that led him to write the stuff might have contributed to the eccentricity of a single example. I don't know if the word appears elsewhere in his diaries. Nor if it appears anywhere in the zillion volumes of _My Secret Life_, the author of which seems like a perfect candidate to have at least, um, dabbled in unisex usage, at least once or twice. JL On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 8:58 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 8/16/2011 7:20 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "Cock" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > But wait! > > > > One ex. doesn't make a speech community. Perhaps Doten used the word one > > way and his sweetie used it in the other. Thus the seeming unisex > "meaning" > > would simply be for the nonce. > -- > > But here's another example, from this list: > > > http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1102B&L=ADS-L&D=0&1=ADS-L&9=A&I=-3&J=on&d=No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&z=4&P=46462 > > <> > > -- > > If that's the case, where are their descendants? .... > -- > > I haven't met any such users of unisex "cock" AFAIK. But that's not to > say there are surely none. > > Some may find unisex "cock" a priori intuitively unlikely, and I find it > so myself. Still, there is some indication that it exists/existed. It > may be that here-and-now intuitions apply imperfectly to other milieux. > In particular, I would expect little standardization of informal words > which are very seldom uttered, and maybe in some times and places and > social circles sex organs were not an everyday subject of casual > conversation. > > For comparison, here is a reported case of "chinchin" (generally = > "penis") recommended as a term for "vagina" by Japanese education > authorities: > > http://www.wowasis.com/travelblog/?p=2911 > > ... although I'm not 100% sure the source is 100% impeccable .... > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 13:39:21 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 09:39:21 -0400 Subject: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) Question about French version In-Reply-To: <201108162237.p7GKaeUq016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Victor, thank you very much for sharing those great finds. Here is a version of the maxim applied to clothes in 1932 (probably). Cite: 1932, Good Looks for Girls by Hazel Rawson Cades, GB Page 156, Harcourt, Brace and Company. (Google Books snippet; Not verified on paper) Fashions change from year to year, season to season, day to day ? but good style really goes on forever. http://books.google.com/books?id=KATPAAAAMAAJ&q=+forever#search_anchor On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 6:37 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: Aphorism: Mode passes; style remains. (Coco Chanel 1965) > Question about French version > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I really got a laugh out of this find because it is almost diametrically > opposite from the fashion quotes: > > http://goo.gl/m8lU4 > Roman life in Pliny's time. By Maurice Pellisson. 1897 > p. 75 > >> It is indeed always the same story; beggars of Athens, beggars of Rome, >> beggars of Paris--forlorn always, in all countries, your hovels have no >> history. The houses where people die of cold are all built in the same >> fashion and their style is eternal. > > > > Would anyone be surprised if I said that this book is a translation from > French? It is. > > > Here's another interesting early variant--that predates both Coco and YSL! = > I > don't know what caused this, but I spontaneously replaced "is eternal" with > "endures" in the Google search string. The results were shocking. > > http://goo.gl/R35VM > The Ohio Architect, Engineer and Builder. Volume 18(1). July 1911 [The talk > took place in Spokane on June 5, 1911.] > No American Architecture. Archibald G. Rigg Tells Spokane, Wash., > Architectural Club that the Name Is a Misnomer. p. 11/2 >> >> Of the many things entering into the different architectural styles, the >> influence of individuals has counted least. One generation of builders ha= > s >> taken up the work where its predecessor stopped. The fashions of >> architecture perish ; style endures. > > > Rigg's talk was published nearly in full. > > http://goo.gl/QWfcV > Architect and Engineer. Volume 25(3). July 1911 > p. 61 > > I was looking for a French connection here too, but did not find one. And i= > t > did not originate with Rigg!!! > > http://goo.gl/j7G21 > American Renaissance: A Review of Domestic Architecture. By Joy Wheeler Dow= > . > 1904 > >> The fashions of architecture=97they perish. Style endures. > > > > American Home (vol. 2?) from 1929 (verified internally, but not on paper) > gives a preview, but with a blank snipped: > > http://goo.gl/7U27P > >> Fads come and go. Style endures. > > > Another snippet from supposedly 1949. > > http://goo.gl/bn0Bh > You and Your Personality: A Guide to Effective Living. By Esther Eberstadt > Brooke. 1949 [The date is on the copyright page, but the snippet does not > correspond to preview text.] > >> Do justice to your good points and don't penalize your bad ones by callin= > g >> attention to them with clothes that are not for such as you. Choose =97 a= > nd >> stick to=97 the style that is yours. Fashions are fleeting, but style >> endures. > > > Now, this one is more interesting as it certainly a book that might have > been seen by Coco Chanel. > > Another one is attributed to Stanley Morrison (1976): "It proves merely tha= > t > fashion is not only fickle but freakish, whereas great style endures withou= > t > interruption." > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 19:00:28 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:00:28 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack Message-ID: For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having a stimulating taste or flavor." I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. "Let's go by Mee Sum Bakery and get a snack to go?" seems plausible though a little odd. But at least egg custards don't fall into the category of "savoury." I think there are other non-savory dim sum dishes as well. (The noun definition does not apply at all AFAIK: "A savoury dish (see A. 3); spec. a cooked dish, flavoured with appetizing ingredients, served at the beginning or end of a dinner as a stimulant to appetite and digestion.") No entry for "yum cha." Will look at that later... Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 17 19:35:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:35:56 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." > > For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: > > adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having a stimulating taste or flavor." > > I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that can work?each dish (or double-dish for the fancy ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 19:44:42 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:44:42 -0400 Subject: "I deleted a sentence _on accident_." [NT] Message-ID: IME -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From vocabula at AOL.COM Wed Aug 17 19:55:19 2011 From: vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Fiske) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:55:19 -0400 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: Message-ID: CUNY Graduate School of Journalism has bought a Vocabula Review site license. Don't be left out; ask your library to buy a Vocabula site license: http://www.vocabula.com/popupads/VRsitelicenses.asp Robert Hartwell Fiske The Vocabula Review COMING IN NOVEMBER 2011 FROM SIMON & SCHUSTER Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English A Compendium of Mistakes in Grammar, Usage, and Spelling with Commentary on Lexicographers and Linguists ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From JMB at STRADLEY.COM Wed Aug 17 20:05:17 2011 From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:05:17 -0400 Subject: Vocabula Spam In-Reply-To: A<8CE2B2EBA010788-2138-229A8@webmail-d155.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think I speak for almost all of us when I say that I don't think this kind of post is O.K. If Mr. Fiske wants to let us know the contents of the latest Vocabula issue, that's fine. If Vocabula receives a favorable review from an independent source and he wants to alert us to that fact, I do not object. Posts like those add something to the discussion, however limited and sales-oriented the contribution may be. But a post like the one below is nothing but a sales pitch and is free of independent content. John Baker -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Fiske Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 3:55 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: CUNY Graduate School of Journalism has bought a Vocabula Review site license. Don't be left out; ask your library to buy a Vocabula site license: http://www.vocabula.com/popupads/VRsitelicenses.asp Robert Hartwell Fiske The Vocabula Review COMING IN NOVEMBER 2011 FROM SIMON & SCHUSTER Robert Hartwell Fiske's Dictionary of Unendurable English A Compendium of Mistakes in Grammar, Usage, and Spelling with Commentary on Lexicographers and Linguists ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 20:06:38 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 13:06:38 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108171936.p7HJ7p3n015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >> >> For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >> >> adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having a stimulating taste or flavor." >> >> I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. > > But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that can work?each dish (or double-dish for the fancy ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. > Clever maths, there :) It's clunky and misleading. No such definition is placed on "corn dogs," which seem to be pretty much a carnival/mid-afternoon snack even if some people (perhaps) eat them as the primary component of a meal. Do people primarily eat dim sum as snacks to go? I definitely recall a place in San Francisco (the Irving Street Chinatown) that seemed to cater a great deal to the to go snacky crowd, but AFAIK, people generally eat dim sum as a meal. But even putting that aside, there's still the problem of them being savory. I've never understood the exact meaning of this term (since it's not used much in the US), but I don't think dishes generally eaten after the main dim sum meal such as egg custard qualify as being savory. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 20:07:35 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 13:07:35 -0700 Subject: "I deleted a sentence _on accident_." [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108171945.p7HGeYOu011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I think this has been covered here before, no? I say this without a second thought. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 17, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > IME ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 20:45:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:45:42 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" Message-ID: Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." would have been much realer. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 20:55:13 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:55:13 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? Message-ID: Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said in July 2009 to Parliament: "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't connote "event" -- anyway.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:06:31 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:06:31 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead Message-ID: My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken offline. Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to reach the Google News Archive today: http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ Here is a tweet about the dead link: @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:33:58 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (ronbutters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:33:58 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172055.p7HKtHST031534@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." Sent from my iPad On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Wed Aug 17 21:13:02 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:13:02 -0500 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108172106.p7HJ7p8N015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE I had seen several notes to this effect. I'm still able to search it. Put a term into the Google search window. Search When results come back, hit the NEWS tab at the top. When the News results come back, hit the "Archives" link down the left side of the page. This is how I've always done it, and it still seems to work. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 4:07 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken > offline. > > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to > reach the Google News Archive today: > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ > > Here is a tweet about the dead link: > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:13:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:13:07 -0400 Subject: OT: "Dirty" pictures referendum on W:pedia [NT] Message-ID: Sheer assholery! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 21:24:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:24:46 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 03:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury > Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." > > > > For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: > > > > adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to > sweet, as the epithet of articles of food > having a stimulating taste or flavor." > > > > I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as > a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. > >But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of >savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that >can work?each dish (or double-dish for the fancy >ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. Or I think often three (items) to a dish. (Isn't three a lucky number?) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Aug 17 21:21:04 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:21:04 -0400 Subject: another "could(n't) care less" variation In-Reply-To: <201004100340.o39JlY1Z001969@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:40 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 9:57 AM +0800 4/10/10, Randy Alexander wrote: > >On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > >> Thanks for the datum, from someone who's been both a hasher and > >> rehasher. I've argued in print that squatitives ("He knows/doesn't > >> know (diddly-)squat about it") are analogous to "could(n't) care > >> less". And I like to cite "(not) to give two shits" to demonstrate > >> that squatitives don't require minimal quantities. > > > >But wouldn't you argue that they require non-multal quantities? I couldn't > >imagine anyone saying they (don't) give 75 shits about something. > > Yeah, I think even three shits is (at least) one too many to give. I was reminded of this old thread upon reading The Entire Facebook Terms of Service in Bro Speak": http://slacktory.com/2011/08/entire-facebook-terms-of-service-in-bro-speak/ "We give lots of fucks about your privacy, so we wrote this." (I was wary of googling "give|gives|giving lots of fucks", but the results are mostly SFW.) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 21:36:10 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:36:10 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 03:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." > >For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: > >adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having >a stimulating taste or flavor." > >I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a >"snack," but I suppose you can look at it that >way. "Let's go by Mee Sum Bakery and get a snack >to go " seems plausible though a little odd. Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). >But at least egg custards don't fall into the >category of "savoury." I think there are other >non-savory dim sum dishes as well. I think so too -- e.g., the red bean pastries. I too don't think of these as "savoury". >(The noun definition does not apply at all >AFAIK: "A savoury dish (see A. 3); spec. a >cooked dish, flavoured with appetizing >ingredients, served at the beginning or end of a >dinner as a stimulant to appetite and digestion.") Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 21:50:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:50:38 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108172106.p7HHMXdL022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I just tried it. No problems. JL On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken > offline. > > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to > reach the Google News Archive today: > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ > > Here is a tweet about the dead link: > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 21:51:54 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:51:54 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <7303878E-788D-4A42-8DDF-8F65CACC3ACA@aol.com> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 05:33 PM, ronbutters at AOL.COM wrote: >This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's >consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say >"and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." Well, not quite the same. My "not" for "nor" is a Fingerfehler (adjacent keys), whereas "and nor" (or even "and not") takes intention -- or inattention. As also is my "too" for "took" a Fingerfehler (of omission -- and inattention -- rather than commission). If your response is essentially "no, there is no such community of speakers", I wish you had said so. Joel >Sent from my iPad > >On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Jim.Walker at UNIV-LYON2.FR Wed Aug 17 21:59:16 2011 From: Jim.Walker at UNIV-LYON2.FR (Jim WALKER) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:59:16 +0200 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172110.p7HGeYUq011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Dear All In my capacity as lurker and Brit, I beg to differ. First "and nor" sounds fine to me (and therefore, by extrapolation, must sound fine to every other speaker of British English...). Note that your proposed "and/or" would not be grammatical here, anyway. Second, "incidences" here is also fine. Can you not have "several incidences of X" where you speak from? Best Jim Walker Universit? Lumi?re Lyon 2 > > This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 17 22:00:26 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:00:26 -0700 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172110.p7HGeYUq011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted >> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said >> in July 2009 to Parliament: >> >> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have >> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... >> >> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? >> >> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... you should probably vote for british. from my files: Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 >Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.< http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html He did not consider it appropriate for society to be run by or for ?merchants and manufacturers?, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd picked up an arabic version and nor did your distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage [thousands more ? 3/1/08] (somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys (emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative supplement to the main clause; the combination drives things home. it does seem to the british, but i see no reason to treat it as an inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 22:12:05 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:12:05 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172124.p7HJ7p8x015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:24 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Re: Dim sum =? savory snack > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 03:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >>> For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >> Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >>> >>> For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >>> >>> adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >> sweet, as the epithet of articles of food >> having a stimulating taste or flavor." >>> >>> I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as >> a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. >> >> But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of >> savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that >> can work?each dish (or double-dish for the fancy >> ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. > > Or I think often three (items) to a dish. (Isn't three a lucky number?) That's another interesting property, though it doesn't always hold. Gai lan is just piled on the plate, and the custards we had came four to a plate (I think I've usually seen three to a plate in the past, FWIW). Still, "served on a small plate" might be a requisite part of the definition of dim sum. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 17 22:12:35 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:12:35 -0700 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172200.p7HJ7pBJ015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> >> This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." >> >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: >> >>> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted >>> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said >>> in July 2009 to Parliament: >>> >>> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have >>> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... >>> >>> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? >>> >>> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... > > you should probably vote for british. from my files: > > Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 >> Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.< > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html > > He did not consider it appropriate for society to be run by or for merchants and manufacturers?, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... > www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ > > Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd picked up an arabic version and nor did your distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. > www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage > > [thousands more ? 3/1/08] > > (somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys (emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative supplement to the main clause; the combination drives things home. it does seem to be british, but i see no reason to treat it as an inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). expanding on this some, here are two "but nor" examples" GKP in e-mail 3/4/08: I'm doing a piece on John McIntyre, who shouldn't think I hate his guts. But nor, of course, should he think that he has his grammar entirely right. John Darnton, ?The Hollow Man?, NYT 4/30/08, p. A23: Mr. Mugabe sat behind a large, uncluttered wooden desk. He did not stand to greet me but nor did he hesitate to shake my hand. what we see in both the "and nor" and the "but nor" examples is "nor" on the way to reanalysis as as an adverbial conveying 'on the other hand'. maybe it's not your variety of English, but it's not an inadvertent error and it's not crazy. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 22:17:33 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:17:33 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172136.p7HJ7p9d015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 03:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >> Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >> >> For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >> >> adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >> sweet, as the epithet of articles of food having >> a stimulating taste or flavor." >> >> I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as a >> "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that >> way. "Let's go by Mee Sum Bakery and get a snack >> to go?" seems plausible though a little odd. > > Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I > don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of > food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light > or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum > dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). Maybe it's because I haven't been a kid or been around kids for so long, but the word "snack" just doesn't come to mind other than as "snack food." If you were to run by the local burger joint and pick up some fries, would you say "I had a snack"? Okay, probably so. Nevertheless, is the food orientation (LOL) of dim sum snacky? It's always great when someone brings some chasiu bao or siumai to share, but I associate it primarily with lunch. So it's like bringing French fries to the office. Yeah, people snack on them, but French fries don't strike me as a snacky food, per se. They are a food that can be eaten as a snack, but being a snack is not part of their definition. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 22:31:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:31:06 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Arnold. You've told me there is a community, and where it is (not local to me). (I was being slightly facetious in referring to "and nor" and "incidence" as foot-in-mouth, since I had a suspicion that "incidence" was British usage. And foot-in-mouth -- er, "-and-" -- disease was seriously present in the UK only a few years ago. Not to mention among politicians.) Joel At 8/17/2011 06:00 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > > > > > > This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or > pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most > likely he actually said (or meant to) say > "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." > > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > >> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > >> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > >> in July 2009 to Parliament: > >> > >> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > >> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... > >> > >> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? > >> > >> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... > >you should probably vote for british. from my files: > >Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m >people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 > >Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken > by 40 million people worldwide, does not work > and nor do similar drugs in the same class, > according to a major review released today.< > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html > >He did not consider it appropriate for society >to be run by or for ?merchants and >manufacturers?, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... >www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ > >Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd >picked up an arabic version and nor did your >distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. >www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage > >[thousands more ? 3/1/08] > >(somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) >this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys >(emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative >supplement to the main clause; the combination >drives things home. it does seem to the >british, but i see no reason to treat it as an >inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 22:44:16 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:44:16 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <050E690D-7524-4EDA-A850-CB4D8BFC6A69@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 06:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I > > don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of > > food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light > > or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum > > dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). > >Maybe it's because I haven't been a kid or been around kids for so >long, but the word "snack" just doesn't come to mind other than as >"snack food." If you were to run by the local burger joint and pick >up some fries, would you say "I had a snack"? Okay, probably so. I haven't been a kid for a while either, but "snack" to me did not always mean take-out -- it was sometimes what I had when I came home from school and other times what I picked up (and took out, and ate) on my way home, so my mother didn't know. >Nevertheless, is the food orientation (LOL) of dim sum snacky? It's >always great when someone brings some chasiu bao or siumai to share, >but I associate it primarily with lunch. The real gourmets, the Jewish, eat dim sum at any time of the day on Sundays. :-) >So it's like bringing French fries to the office. Yeah, people snack >on them, but French fries don't strike me as a snacky food, per se. >They are a food that can be eaten as a snack, but being a snack is >not part of their definition. P.S. About four custards on a plate, Wiki tells me four is an unlucky number (three is lucky). (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) Joel >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 17 22:53:04 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:53:04 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack / "and nor" In-Reply-To: <201108172244.p7HHMXnb022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at > circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) you did that "and nor" on purpose, right? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 22:55:35 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:55:35 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172244.p7HHMXnb022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 06:17 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> >>> Do you consider "snacks" as always "to go"? I >>> don't. OED n.2, 4.b "A mere bite or morsel of >>> food, as contrasted with a regular meal; a light >>> or incidental repast". More than 3 or 4 dim sum >>> dishes becomes a meal, so that part of the OED definition is OK :-). >> >> Maybe it's because I haven't been a kid or been around kids for so >> long, but the word "snack" just doesn't come to mind other than as >> "snack food." If you were to run by the local burger joint and pick >> up some fries, would you say "I had a snack"? Okay, probably so. > > I haven't been a kid for a while either, but "snack" to me did not > always mean take-out -- it was sometimes what I had when I came home > from school and other times what I picked up (and took out, and ate) > on my way home, so my mother didn't know. Well, with dim sum, how else are you going to get it in a form you would call a snack? If you eat it in the restaurant, is it a snack? To me it would be a light lunch, but even so, it's not a snack food, it's a food that is being eaten as a snack/light lunch. Is a slider a snack (slider has recently become a viable word in Seattle, but it's not in the OED yet)? Doesn't seem like it to me. You can have one as a snack, but it doesn't seem like a snack per se. > >> Nevertheless, is the food orientation (LOL) of dim sum snacky? It's >> always great when someone brings some chasiu bao or siumai to share, >> but I associate it primarily with lunch. > > The real gourmets, the Jewish, eat dim sum at any time of the day on > Sundays. :-) We have all-day dim sum here in Seattle, too, but it's primarily a lunch food. > >> So it's like bringing French fries to the office. Yeah, people snack >> on them, but French fries don't strike me as a snacky food, per se. >> They are a food that can be eaten as a snack, but being a snack is >> not part of their definition. > > P.S. About four custards on a plate, Wiki tells me four is an > unlucky number (three is lucky). (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at > circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) It comes from the Chinese reading of four, which means death. You can still find places in Japan where they do that, but it's not so common. Looking at MandarinTools.com, ? (four) is si4 in Mandarin and sei3 in Cantonese. Death is si3 in Mandarin and sei2 in Cantonese. Both are shi in Japanese and sa in Korean. Also, see: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%9B%9B http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%AD%BB BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 22:58:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:58:22 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: <201108172055.p7HGeYU4011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Except that there *is* a speech community of people who say "incidences" instead of "incidents." If you can go by cable news, it's everybody but people on this list. I suppose "and plus," a U.S. freshman fave since the at least the 1970s, has already been covered. Of course, it's only one-half as egregious. JL On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted > by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said > in July 2009 to Parliament: > > "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have > any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place." > > (As an aside, this is not only "I avow not" but also "I don't remember".) > > As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and not"? > > I vote for foot-in-mouth, considering the use of "incidences" instead > of "incidents". (The possible senses of "incidence" = "incident" (in > sense 1) are marked by the OED as Obs., and are off-target -- don't > connote "event" -- anyway.) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 17 23:00:57 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:00:57 -0400 Subject: new nadoes Message-ID: Bugnadoes: read all about 'em: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/behold-bugnado-203649838.html Gustnadoes are bad too: http://news.yahoo.com/did-gustnado-topple-indiana-stage-experts-divided-211023909.html JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 17 23:03:37 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:03:37 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108170715.p7GKaenI016057@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't find really authoritative kanji for "humbow", but here are some candidates: http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?12,5331,5354 ... "haam baau" or so in Cantonese, read "xian bao" in Guoyu (with some tones either way), One candidate (2nd post) ... ?? ... seems to 'make sense' but I can't immediately verify it on-line. Another candidate (9th post) ... ?? ... at least really exists in some sort of Chinese in more-or-less appropriate sense: http://www.chimeifood.com.tw/product/products.asp?fid=134 Somebody who can read Chinese well can probably do better. -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 17 23:13:00 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:13:00 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108172045.p7HKjlZ3029221@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page of today's Times, laid out thus: Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." This is due to the fact that I am more and more receiving emails from forces for righteousness who want me to email my congressman, &c. and demand action. They offer a form email, but urge me to write my own. I send the form email, because I suppose that itl won't be read, but merely glanced at by a staff member, who is a letter counter, and will check it off as for or against. That fact, plus simple-mindedness, I suppose. Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) weren't misled. GAT On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: > > "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." > > The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal > correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by > various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. > > This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the > OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; > unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of > hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking > *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is > perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, > > "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." > > would have been much realer. > > Joel > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:40:57 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:40:57 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <530AFB06-3BE5-4D79-9011-5806E08385F6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 06:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Well, with dim sum, how else are you going to >get it in a form you would call a snack? If you >eat it in the restaurant, is it a snack? To me >it would be a light lunch, but even so, it's not >a snack food, it's a food that is being eaten as a snack/light lunch. I won't argue with this. By analogy, what do we call a meal of (Spanish) tapas? ... well, research shows "we" call it "Usu. pl. In Spanish bars or caf?s, a *savoury* [there we are again] *snack* [ditto] or hors d'?uvre [see below] of sausage, cured ham, seafood, potato salad, etc., typically served with glasses of wine or sherry." "Appetizers" won't work, I guess, since dim sum are often both the appetizer and the satisfier. Perhaps "small dishes of savouries or desserts"? "Hors d'?uvre" too seems inappropriate for dim sum. (For unknown reason, "hors d'?uvre" doesn't come up in a simple search, but Advanced search full text does find it as a head-word.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 23:41:05 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:41:05 -0700 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108172304.p7HJ7pEj015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nice find! I can't read Chinese, but can at least identify characters. On the page for ? (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A4%A1), it says under the Mandarin section "filling (for dumplings etc.)" Since ? means wrap (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8C%85. but not defined), that makes sense. "??" gets 938,000 Googits. I wonder if ?? is word play or nonce usage. I've never understood how Cantonese writing works very well, but I think they have some freedom of character use, something along the lines of jukujikun as you mentioned the other day. Still, "??" gets 49,900 Googits, pale in comparison, but still a large number... BB On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:03 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > I can't find really authoritative kanji for "humbow", but here are some > candidates: > > http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?12,5331,5354 > > ... "haam baau" or so in Cantonese, read "xian bao" in Guoyu (with some > tones either way), > > One candidate (2nd post) ... > > ?? > > ... seems to 'make sense' but I can't immediately verify it on-line. > > Another candidate (9th post) ... > > ?? > > ... at least really exists in some sort of Chinese in more-or-less > appropriate sense: > > http://www.chimeifood.com.tw/product/products.asp?fid=134 > > Somebody who can read Chinese well can probably do better. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:41:54 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:41:54 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 06:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >If you can go by cable news, it's everybody but people on this list. Still not my local speech community. :-) JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:46:09 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:46:09 -0400 Subject: new nadoes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gustnado was discussed on 2007-04-26, and dated to 1991 or 1992 by Bapopik at AOL.COM. (Not that I remembered either.) Joel At 8/17/2011 07:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Bugnadoes: read all about 'em: >http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/behold-bugnado-203649838.html > >Gustnadoes are bad too: >http://news.yahoo.com/did-gustnado-topple-indiana-stage-experts-divided-211023909.html > >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 17 23:50:30 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:50:30 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page >of today's Times, laid out thus: >Letter counters >hacking avowals >from News Corp > >I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >... >Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >weren't misled. I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all on one line. Joel >GAT > >On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: > > > > "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." > > > > The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal > > correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by > > various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. > > > > This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the > > OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; > > unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of > > hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking > > *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is > > perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, > > > > "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." > > > > would have been much realer. > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------**------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >George A. Thompson >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Aug 17 23:56:18 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:56:18 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172341.p7HJ7pGB015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:40 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Re: Dim sum =? savory snack > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 06:55 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> Well, with dim sum, how else are you going to >> get it in a form you would call a snack? If you >> eat it in the restaurant, is it a snack? To me >> it would be a light lunch, but even so, it's not >> a snack food, it's a food that is being eaten as a snack/light lunch. > > I won't argue with this. By analogy, what do we > call a meal of (Spanish) tapas? ... well, > research shows "we" call it "Usu. pl. In Spanish > bars or caf?s, a *savoury* [there we are again] > *snack* [ditto] or hors d'?uvre [see below] of > sausage, cured ham, seafood, potato salad, etc., > typically served with glasses of wine or sherry." > > "Appetizers" won't work, I guess, since dim sum > are often both the appetizer and the > satisfier. Perhaps "small dishes of savouries or desserts"? > > "Hors d'?uvre" too seems inappropriate for dim > sum. (For unknown reason, "hors d'?uvre" doesn't > come up in a simple search, but Advanced search > full text does find it as a head-word.) How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from carts in a restaurant." Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes?) The non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any means. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:07:41 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:07:41 -0400 Subject: "and nor" -- British, or foot-in-mouth? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Aug 17, 2011, at 2:33 PM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >> >> >> This is just a trivisl slip of the tongue or pen, not worth anyone's consideration. Most likely he actually said (or meant to) say "and/or"--just as you mistakenly wrote "and not" and "too." >> >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 4:55 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: >> >>> Andy Coulson ("editor of the News of the World, 2003-07") is quoted >>> by the NYTimes, Aug.17, page A3 New England Edition, as having said >>> in July 2009 to Parliament: >>> >>> "I have never condoned the use of phone hacking, and nor do I have >>> any recollection of incidences where phone hacking too place."... >>> >>> As Jon L. would ask, is there a community of speakers who use "and [nor]"? >>> >>> I vote for foot-in-mouth, ... > > you should probably vote for british. from my files: > > Contrast Sarah Boseley, "Prozac, used by 40m people, does not work say scientists", The Guardian, 2./26/2008 >> Prozac, the bestselling antidepressant taken by 40 million people worldwide, does not work and nor do similar drugs in the same class, according to a major review released today.< > http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005420.html > > He did not consider it appropriate for society to be run by or for ?merchants and manufacturers?, and nor did he accept that the rich and powerful, ... > www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/ > > Nowhere on the packaging does it state that I'd picked up an arabic version and nor did your distributors in Bahrain care to mention it. > www.htcwiki.com/thread/808844/P4350+Operating+System+Lanaguage > > [thousands more ? 3/1/08] > > (somewhere i have examples from Geoff Pullum.) this is reinforcement: the "and" conveys (emphatic) coordination, the "nor" a negative supplement to the main clause; the combination drives things home. it does seem to the british, but i see no reason to treat it as an inadvertent error (any more than "and so" is an inadvertent error). > > arnold > (and) nor is it particularly new. I've been encountering it in British novels from the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. I don't think it's at all frequent in cispondian usage; perhaps Lynne Murphy has covered "and nor" in her blog. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:10:59 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:10:59 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108172124.p7HLOjTR007474@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 03:35 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Aug 17, 2011, at 3:00 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >> >> > For dim sum, the OED says "A savoury >> Cantonese-style snack; a meal consisting of these." >> > >> > For savoury, the OED has one relevant definition: >> > >> > adjective "3. Used, in contradistinction to >> sweet, as the epithet of articles of food >> having a stimulating taste or flavor." >> > >> > I have a bit of trouble imagining dim sum as >> a "snack," but I suppose you can look at it that way. >> >> But if dim sum can be "a meal consisting of >> savoury Cantonese-style snacks", I think that >> can work?each dish (or double-dish for the fancy >> ones) is a snack, and the sum is the meal. > > Or I think often three (items) to a dish. (Isn't three a lucky number?) > > Joel I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items will count double. At least that's how the places in the respective S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:16:01 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:16:01 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <530AFB06-3BE5-4D79-9011-5806E08385F6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: >> P.S. About four custards on a plate, Wiki tells me four is an >> unlucky number (three is lucky). (In Seoul, a hotel I stayed at >> circa 1990 had no 4th -- and nor 13th -- floors.) A practice still practiced in Vancouver hotels and apartment buildings. (Lots of Chinese and non-Chinese there.) LH > > It comes from the Chinese reading of four, which means death. You can still find places in Japan where they do that, but it's not so common. > > Looking at MandarinTools.com, ? (four) is si4 in Mandarin and sei3 in Cantonese. > Death is si3 in Mandarin and sei2 in Cantonese. > Both are shi in Japanese and sa in Korean. > > Also, see: > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%9B%9B > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%AD%BB > > BB > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 00:21:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:21:02 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <6715B754-EE09-4BB9-B6D8-650C4BE23B54@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from carts in a restaurant." > > Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, I've had good dim sum in a Hunanese restaurant. Maybe "Chinese" would be safer. > I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." Sounds good to me. (On various levels.) > > I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes?) The non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any means. > Well, presumably it would be in the broader sense (= 'tasty, appetizing'), in which case it's not opposed to "sweet". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 01:04:37 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 18:04:37 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108180021.p7HGeYhu011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > >> >> How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from carts in a restaurant." >> >> Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, > > I've had good dim sum in a Hunanese restaurant. Maybe "Chinese" would be safer. I suppose it comes down to how people perceive it, though ultimately I think you're right. > >> I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." > Sounds good to me. (On various levels.) >> >> I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes?) The non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any means. >> > Well, presumably it would be in the broader sense (= 'tasty, appetizing'), in which case it's not opposed to "sweet". > That's another reason to dislike the word "savory": It's confusing! Is this meaning of "savory" basically applied when you eat something and say, "That was scrumptious"? I can't imagine anyone wanting to point at cuisine 1 and call it savory (tasty, appetizing) and cuisine 2 and call it not savory, so I have trouble figuring out how using this word would make a useful contrast. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 01:12:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:12:30 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108172350.p7HJ7pGt015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a crook", was that an avowal? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page >> of today's Times, laid out thus: >> Letter counters >> hacking avowals >> from News Corp >> >> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >> ... >> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >> weren't misled. > > I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do > read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped > through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all > on one line. > > Joel > > >> GAT >> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: >>> >>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." >>> >>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal >>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by >>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. >>> >>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the >>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; >>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of >>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking >>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is >>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, >>> >>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." >>> >>> would have been much realer. >>> >>> Joel >>> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> George A. Thompson >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 01:17:27 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:17:27 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <8023591235008743132@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Aug 17, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a > crook", was that an avowal? I'd say so. He avowed (asserted, claimed, declared) that he was not a crook. So it was an avowal, a claim, and a declaration. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd call it an assertion, partly because "denial" is such a handy way of characterizing assertions with negative content. YMMV. LH > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >>> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of the front page >>> of today's Times, laid out thus: >>> Letter counters >>> hacking avowals >>> from News Corp >>> >>> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >>> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >>> ... >>> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >>> weren't misled. >> >> I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do >> read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped >> through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all >> on one line. >> >> Joel >> >> >>> GAT >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >>> >>>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: >>>> >>>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." >>>> >>>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal >>>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by >>>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. >>>> >>>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the >>>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; >>>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of >>>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking >>>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is >>>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, >>>> >>>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." >>>> >>>> would have been much realer. >>>> >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> George A. Thompson >>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. >>> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 01:18:01 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:18:01 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108162151.p7GLRQTJ023151@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes both > knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same > year. Here is a cite for "dead man's handle" in 1902. Also, here are the details for a false match in 1902 that is really dated 1905. Cite: 1902 February 15, The Electrical World and Engineer, Page 312, Column 1, The Electrical World and Engineer, Inc., New York. (Google Books full view) DEAD MAN'S HANDLE - A patent issued Jan. 28 to W. B. Potter relates to a railway controller attachment sometimes-known as "the dead man's handle." ... It is thus necessary for the motorman to have his hand on the controller handle at all times when power is being applied to the motors to drive the train and should he drop dead or become disabled, the train will stop of itself, and will not run wild. Hence the popular name "dead man's handle." http://books.google.com/books?id=OU9EAQAAIAAJ&q=%22dead+man%27s%22#v=snippet& There is a match in Google Books in "The Technograph" with an incorrect 1902 date. Cite: 1905-1906, The Technograph, The Electric Test Car by E. I. Wenger, Start Page 56, Quote Page 61, Number 20, Association of Engineering Societies of the University of Illinois. (Google Books full view) The handle is removable and is what is called a dead man's handle. That is, it is spring actuated and if, for any reason, the hand is removed the handle comes to the off position, thereby opening all the switches. http://books.google.com/books?id=xWUiAQAAMAAJ&q=%22dead+man%27s%22#v=snippet& HathiTrust shows a match in a children's book called "My Picture Book of Railways". The database assigns the book a date of 1900, but the images show no date, and a closer look at the record shows a date of 19--, i.e., the date is unknown. GB gives the work a date of 192-. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 01:43:20 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:43:20 -0400 Subject: dead man's switch In-Reply-To: <201108180118.p7HJ7pJb015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My primary initial interest was in "dead man's switch", because it's not even IN the OED. But this is a great find. There are two pointers that suggest that this is a fairly early use. First, the patent indicates that the field has not been exhausted. Second, the identification of "sometimes-known" also suggests that it's a novelty. If there was a variation in naming of a fairly common object, the description likely would have involved multiple names--as the OED 1908 citation includes both handle and knob. So the expression can't be more than a few years older than 1902--of course, the first electric trains are not much older either. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:18 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > The earliest for "dead man's handle/knob" in the OED is 1908 (includes > both > > knob and handle). Ironically, the switch makes its appearance in the same > > year. > > Here is a cite for "dead man's handle" in 1902. Also, here are the > details for a false match in 1902 that is really dated 1905. > > Cite: 1902 February 15, The Electrical World and Engineer, Page 312, > Column 1, The Electrical World and Engineer, Inc., New York. (Google > Books full view) > > DEAD MAN'S HANDLE - A patent issued Jan. 28 to W. B. Potter relates to > a railway controller attachment sometimes-known as "the dead man's > handle." ... > > It is thus necessary for the motorman to have his hand on the > controller handle at all times when power is being applied to the > motors to drive the train and should he drop dead or become disabled, > the train will stop of itself, and will not run wild. Hence the > popular name "dead man's handle." > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=OU9EAQAAIAAJ&q=%22dead+man%27s%22#v=snippet& > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 02:05:42 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:05:42 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108172341.p7HHMXvv022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I don't know if anyone cares, since this doesn't go the the heart of the matter in English, but "bao" is an extremely popular Dutch "snack" (see "dim sum"--I'll post on that later). Every Dutch supermarket carries at least two (beef and pork) and up to six varieties of "bao" in the freezer--they are meant to be microwaved briefly before consumption. The problem is, there is virtually no food in supermarkets that could be described as "Chinese". The Dutch equivalent is Indonesian fast food--what with noodle and rice mixes all meant to resemble Indonesian creations. AFAICT "bao" is also considered Indonesian (although most Asian restaurants are tagged with "Chinese-Indonesian" label). This does not mean it's not Chinese in origin, but the distribution is very wide. Just to be clear--these are the standard, white-dough steamed buns with some meat or vegetarian filling, ranging between 2" and 4" in diameter. Unlike the US varieties, they are always packaged as singles (makes it easier to microwave two--right in the pack). They are never baked. When I've seen the baked varieties in bakeries, they were also occasionally labeled as "bao", but this was not the rule (on the other hand, a split roll baked/toasted with ham, cheese and pineapple was /always/ labeled "Hawaiian"). If anything was labeled Han Bao, I haven't seen it. I hope this helps in some small way. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Nice find! I can't read Chinese, but can at least identify characters. > > On the page for ? (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A4%A1), it says under > the Mandarin section "filling (for dumplings etc.)" Since ? means wrap ( > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8C%85. but not defined), that makes > sense. "??" gets 938,000 Googits. > > I wonder if ?? is word play or nonce usage. I've never understood how > Cantonese writing works very well, but I think they have some freedom of > character use, something along the lines of jukujikun as you mentioned the > other day. Still, "??" gets 49,900 Googits, pale in comparison, but still a > large number... > > BB > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 02:13:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:13:38 -0400 Subject: OT: "Dirty" pictures referendum on W:pedia [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108172113.p7HJ7p8d015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Most Wiki referendums are--of course, it's the same people, on average, who vote in US elections... VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Sheer assholery! > > -- > -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 02:17:35 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 22:17:35 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108172150.p7HHMXhZ022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: GNA has been flaky for a long time now--Google tried different variation on the search configurations, which results in all sorts of problems. One thing that's been gone but made a reappearance in a different place is the link to archive search on the regular news search page. The archives link used to be right below the search bar, but now it's in the left-hand column--and, for a few weeks, it was gone completely. The same with the link to GNA from other Google sites. My guess is that your link overdetermines some parameter which is lost when it's redirected. But if you access it directly, without going through old links, it's no problem. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > I just tried it. No problems. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Garson O'Toole > > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another > > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that > > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken > > offline. > > > > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to > > reach the Google News Archive today: > > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ > > > > Here is a tweet about the dead link: > > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary > > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. > > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 02:18:46 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 19:18:46 -0700 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180205.p7I0AYD1022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Based on Google Translate, the Dutch Wikipedia page (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bapao) seems to say they are from Chinese culture via Indonesia. The dish takes on different forms and names in English, such as nikuman, which has come from China via Japan, and manapua, popular in Hawai'i. Lots to explore here! Humbao here can be either steamed (white) or baked (brown, generally with a honey glaze). Surely, they must sell these products in the freezer section of US grocery stores--Asian if not general--though frozen just isn't the same. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:05 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I don't know if anyone cares, since this doesn't go the the heart of the > matter in English, but "bao" is an extremely popular Dutch "snack" (see "di= > m > sum"--I'll post on that later). Every Dutch supermarket carries at least tw= > o > (beef and pork) and up to six varieties of "bao" in the freezer--they are > meant to be microwaved briefly before consumption. The problem is, there is > virtually no food in supermarkets that could be described as "Chinese". The > Dutch equivalent is Indonesian fast food--what with noodle and rice mixes > all meant to resemble Indonesian creations. AFAICT "bao" is also considered > Indonesian (although most Asian restaurants are tagged with > "Chinese-Indonesian" label). This does not mean it's not Chinese in origin, > but the distribution is very wide. > > Just to be clear--these are the standard, white-dough steamed buns with som= > e > meat or vegetarian filling, ranging between 2" and 4" in diameter. Unlike > the US varieties, they are always packaged as singles (makes it easier to > microwave two--right in the pack). They are never baked. When I've seen the > baked varieties in bakeries, they were also occasionally labeled as "bao", > but this was not the rule (on the other hand, a split roll baked/toasted > with ham, cheese and pineapple was /always/ labeled "Hawaiian"). If anythin= > g > was labeled Han Bao, I haven't seen it. > > I hope this helps in some small way. > > VS-) > > > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Benjamin Barrett wro= > te: > >> >> Nice find! I can't read Chinese, but can at least identify characters. >> >> On the page for =C0` (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%A4%A1), it says u= > nder >> the Mandarin section "filling (for dumplings etc.)" Since =A5] means wrap= > ( >> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%8C%85. but not defined), that makes >> sense. "=C0`=A5]" gets 938,000 Googits. >> >> I wonder if =C4=D0=A5] is word play or nonce usage. I've never understood= > how >> Cantonese writing works very well, but I think they have some freedom of >> character use, something along the lines of jukujikun as you mentioned th= > e >> other day. Still, "=C4=D0=A5]" gets 49,900 Googits, pale in comparison, b= > ut still a >> large number... >> >> BB >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 03:09:07 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:09:07 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180218.p7HJ7pMX015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Asian--yes, general supermarkets--mostly no. I have never seen them as singles, however--usually in packs of four to six, depending on size and prep method (bake or steam). As far as I can tell, none are intended to be microwaved, but I've never been able to read the non-English directions on them so it could be something lost in translation. In any case, I've never seen the ones similar to the Dutch ones in the US. Those used to cost from 10 to 70 cents apiece--like I said, basic snack or fast food. The ones I've seen in Boston/SF/Chicago/Madison tend to be for home production, not food on the go. Of course, the ones at bakeries are just snacks--I do believe that's egg glaze mostly, not honey (but it might be sugar/honey glaze on some of them). I've seen them on menu lists (or carts) in dim sums in Boston, New York and Chicago (I've only been to one dim sum in Oakland and never in SF). But they are listed under a variety of names. VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > Based on Google Translate, the Dutch Wikipedia page ( > http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bapao) seems to say they are from Chinese > culture via Indonesia. > > The dish takes on different forms and names in English, such as nikuman, > which has come from China via Japan, and manapua, popular in Hawai'i. Lots > to explore here! > > Humbao here can be either steamed (white) or baked (brown, generally with a > honey glaze). > > Surely, they must sell these products in the freezer section of US grocery > stores--Asian if not general--though frozen just isn't the same. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 03:09:28 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:09:28 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180218.p7HJ7pMX015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:05 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > > I don't know if anyone cares, since this doesn't go the the heart of the > > matter in English, but "bao" is an extremely popular Dutch "snack" (see "dim > > sum"--I'll post on that later). Every Dutch supermarket carries at least two > > (beef and pork) and up to six varieties of "bao" in the freezer--they are > > meant to be microwaved briefly before consumption. The problem is, there is > > virtually no food in supermarkets that could be described as "Chinese". The > > Dutch equivalent is Indonesian fast food--what with noodle and rice mixes > > all meant to resemble Indonesian creations. AFAICT "bao" is also considered > > Indonesian (although most Asian restaurants are tagged with > > "Chinese-Indonesian" label). This does not mean it's not Chinese in origin, > > but the distribution is very wide. > > Based on Google Translate, the Dutch Wikipedia page (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bapao) > seems to say they are from Chinese culture via Indonesia. "Bapao", more frequently spelled "bakpao" (the "k" represents a glottal stop), is popular street food in many Indonesian cities. Anyone who has spent time in places like Jakarta or Bandung will be familiar with the call of "bakpao!" from street vendors, competing with similar calls of "satay!" (meat skewers), "bakso!" (meatballs), etc. On his Indonesia trip, Obama reminisced about the calls of "satay" and "bakso" (though he left out the "bakpao"): http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2765 The "bak" /ba?/ element in "bakpao" and "bakso" is from the Hokkien version of ? meaning "meat", which Wikipedia tells me may actually be derived from proto-Austronesian "*babuy" ('wild pig'). http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%82%89#Noun_3 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 03:28:34 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:28:34 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180319.p7HJ7pOn015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the reminder! Bapao is probably even more common as a name than Bao. But both are used in Holland. I have never seen "bakpao" there. But I haven't been everywhere... ;-) VS-) On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > "Bapao", more frequently spelled "bakpao" (the "k" represents a > glottal stop), is popular street food in many Indonesian cities. > Anyone who has spent time in places like Jakarta or Bandung will be > familiar with the call of "bakpao!" from street vendors, competing > with similar calls of "satay!" (meat skewers), "bakso!" (meatballs), > etc. On his Indonesia trip, Obama reminisced about the calls of > "satay" and "bakso" (though he left out the "bakpao"): > > http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2765 > > The "bak" /ba?/ element in "bakpao" and "bakso" is from the Hokkien > version of ? meaning "meat", which Wikipedia tells me may actually be > derived from proto-Austronesian "*babuy" ('wild pig'). > > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%82%89#Noun_3 > > --bgz > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 03:39:25 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:39:25 -0400 Subject: hum bao and humbao (1990) In-Reply-To: <201108180328.p7I0AYKH022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:28 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: >> >> "Bapao", more frequently spelled "bakpao" (the "k" represents a >> glottal stop), is popular street food in many Indonesian cities. >> Anyone who has spent time in places like Jakarta or Bandung will be >> familiar with the call of "bakpao!" from street vendors, competing >> with similar calls of "satay!" (meat skewers), "bakso!" (meatballs), >> etc. On his Indonesia trip, Obama reminisced about the calls of >> "satay" and "bakso" (though he left out the "bakpao"): >> >> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3D2765 >> >> The "bak" /ba?/ element in "bakpao" and "bakso" is from the Hokkien >> version of =E8=82=89 meaning "meat", which Wikipedia tells me may actually >> be derived from proto-Austronesian "*babuy" ('wild pig'). >> >> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%82%89#Noun_3 > > Thanks for the reminder! Bapao is probably even more common as a name than > Bao. But both are used in Holland. I have never seen "bakpao" there. But I > haven't been everywhere... ;-) I'm not surprised the Dutch prefer the "bapao" spelling variant to "bakpao" (same with "baso" vs. "bakso" and "bami" vs. "bakmi"), since they wouldn't cotton to the Indonesian use of "k" for the glottal stop. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 04:45:31 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 00:45:31 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108180217.p7I0AYEP022780@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Bill, Jon, and Victor for responding. Google once had a specialized webpage front-end for the Google News Archive. It was located here: http://news.google.com/archivesearch If you type "Google News Archive" into the Google query slot then the top result points to the location given above. However, this link now redirects to another location that looks like a generic Google News search page. The search method outlined by Bill does work for now. Thanks Bill: 1) Put a term into the Google search window. Search 2) When results come back, hit the NEWS tab at the top. 3) When the News results come back, hit the "Archives" link down the left side of the page. There is an option on the left side of the page to search in a custom range within the Google News Archive, but I do not see the histogram that was once bannered across the top of the page. Do any list members know if the front-end that uses a graphical display of matches is still available somewhere in the forest of links? Garson On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 10:17 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: Google News Archive link is dead > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > GNA has been flaky for a long time now--Google tried different variation on > the search configurations, which results in all sorts of problems. One thing > that's been gone but made a reappearance in a different place is the link to > archive search on the regular news search page. The archives link used to be > right below the search bar, but now it's in the left-hand column--and, for a > few weeks, it was gone completely. The same with the link to GNA from other > Google sites. My guess is that your link overdetermines some parameter which > is lost when it's redirected. But if you access it directly, without going > through old links, it's no problem. > > VS-) > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> >> I just tried it. No problems. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Garson O'Toole >> wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> > ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: Garson O'Toole >> > Subject: Google News Archive link is dead >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > My link to the Google News Archive is being redirected to another >> > Google search page. Previous news from Google in May reported that >> > the archive was no longer being updated. Now it may have been taken >> > offline. >> > >> > Here is a blog post from someone who has experienced an inability to >> > reach the Google News Archive today: >> > http://themoderatevoice.com/119892/wither-google-news-archive/ >> > >> > Here is a tweet about the dead link: >> > @Slow_News_Day Patrick Flanary >> > Looks like @Google News Archive has bit the dust. The link is dead. >> > RIP, my favorite site. #googlenewsarchive >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 05:28:49 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:28:49 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: <201108180445.p7HJ7pTH015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Thanks to Bill, Jon, and Victor for responding. Google once had a > specialized webpage front-end for the Google News Archive. It was > located here: > > http://news.google.com/archivesearch > > If you type "Google News Archive" into the Google query slot then the > top result points to the location given above. However, this link now > redirects to another location that looks like a generic Google News > search page. This is part of a more general strategy Google has been pursuing lately with its pages. There used to be a dedicated Dictionary page at: http://www.google.com/dictionary Now gone: http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/05/google-dictionary-slams-shut-forever-world-unsurprisingly-at-a/ But you can still get to Dictionary results, either by using the "define:" operator before a keyword and clicking "More", or by searching on a keyword in the usual way and selecting "More search tools" from the left-hand column on the search results page. You can get to the News Archive from the same menu. > There is an option on the left side of the page to search in a custom > range within the Google News Archive, but I do not see the histogram > that was once bannered across the top of the page. Do any list members > know if the front-end that uses a graphical display of matches is > still available somewhere in the forest of links? Well, you can click "Timeline" in that "More search tools" menu in the left-hand column, but that's not exactly the same as the histogram that was on the old News Archive page -- it includes various other stuff, like web pages and Google Books results. I think that helpful news-only display is gone now. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Thu Aug 18 05:35:23 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:35:23 -0400 Subject: Google News Archive link is dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 1:28 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > >> There is an option on the left side of the page to search in a custom >> range within the Google News Archive, but I do not see the histogram >> that was once bannered across the top of the page. Do any list members >> know if the front-end that uses a graphical display of matches is >> still available somewhere in the forest of links? > > Well, you can click "Timeline" in that "More search tools" menu in the > left-hand column, but that's not exactly the same as the histogram > that was on the old News Archive page -- it includes various other > stuff, like web pages and Google Books results. I think that helpful > news-only display is gone now. And speaking of data visualization, the Google Books Ngram Viewer is leaving Google Labs (which is being phased out anyway) and will be incorporated directly into the Google Books display. http://www.googlelabs.com/show_details?app_key=agtnbGFiczIwLXd3d3IVCxIMTGFic0FwcE1vZGVsGOnEuQIM --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 06:55:07 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 02:55:07 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108180104.p7HJ7pJ9015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm a bit concerned about this thread because many of the post do not necessarily reflect my own experience with dim-sum. I tried to put some notes together--some may be wrong, so feel free to correct them at any point. First, the word has come to represent many things, some likely broader than I would feel comfortable using. It refers to a style of meal, the meal itself, items served at such a meal, items typical of such a meal but not necessarily served at one, all Chinese savory "mini-bites" such as shao-mai and har-gao. Furthermore, restaurants that serve such a meal are also sometimes referred to as "dim-sum" or "dim-sum X", where X stands for anything that traditional may identify a restaurant (e.g., restaurant, place, joint, house). "Going for dim-sum" usually means a visit to such a restaurant--irrespectively of whether this is a specialty of the house or a sideline, perhaps offered only once or twice a week. And if you go to your local Costco, you may find a plastic tray full of prepared dumplings (to be microwaved), with a big "Dim-Sum" label across the top. I've also seen some simple shao-mai packages labeled as "dim-sum". Only last week I had a discussion with a Chinese friend (don't recall the specific place of origin, but it is South Coastal China). And I was corrected (unnecessarily, as it turned out--the distinction was not relevant to the point I was making) that dim-sum is never served past mid-afternoon, although one can certainly buy dim-sum items and eat them at his leisure. That is, dim-sum is traditionally a morning-to-early afternoon meal or snack, i.e., the spot traditionally occupied in American cuisine (if there is such a thing) as "brunch". You don't have dim-sum for lunch or for dinner--or, for that matter, for breakfast, nor do you have "dim-sum lunch" or "dim-sum brunch"--it's just "dim-sum". This does not mean, of course, that no one uses these expressions, just that they are not what is normally intended by "dim-sum" (i.e., those uses might well be considered non-standard--for a time). Although most American Chinese restaurants serve dim-sum only on weekends (sometimes only one day a week), in larger cities (NYC, Boston, Chicago, SF), there are now numerous restaurants that specialize in dim sum and serve it daily, although never after 3 pm (some only until 2 pm). But even at these locations, the selection is more limited during the week than it is on weekends. Meal content: Most of the items are quite small and served on small plates--sometimes still inside the individual steamer baskets in which they were prepared (if steamed). But this is by no means exclusive. Such specialties as steamed greens, clams, jellyfish, chicken feet, etc., are often served on larger plates and must be ordered separately. To the best of my understanding, this is not an Americanized addition, but a part of a traditional meal. Still, the majority of dishes are pre-plated on small plates or bowls. The differing colors or styles of plates usually correspond to different prices charged for the items (or individual prices are marked off on a pre-printed gridded receipt). Each small plate may contain anywhere from one to four of any particular item, depending on the item and the proprietor's preference (diners rarely have a choice--they must choose any multiple of plates, but not specific numbers of items). The most common service consists of "waitresses" pushing carts around the floor of the restaurant, each cart containing stacks of plates, usually representing a particular kind of items. For example, there may be a shao-mai cart, a dumpling cart (including har-gao, and other fully enclosed dumplings with different shells and different fillings), a bao cart, a noodle cart, sticky rice cart (rice steamed in lotus leaf, banana leaf, or simply under a small glass bowl), deep fried cart, etc. Not all cart contain pre-plated items. For example, hot soy milk or hot almond-flavored "soup" may be ladled into individual bowls at the table. The "dumplings" made out of tofu slices, eggplant slices, green pepper halves or shiitake mushroom caps stuffed with some kind of meatball mixture (pork, beef or pork/shrimp combination) are often carted around together, but either already floating in a sauce or each sitting in its own pot and ladled with sauce once plated. Each restaurant may have its own specialty that may not be tradition or available elsewhere, e.g., seafood dishes, baked pastries, etc. What passes for dessert is usually 1) egg custard, 2) soy-milk or almond-flavored pudding, 3) almond-flavored or bean-flavored jelly, 4) occasional sweet pastries (e.g., with red-bean filling) that may be baked, steamed or deep-fried. Other than these and soy milk, to the best of my knowledge all other dishes can be considered "savory" (or "savoury"). Some restaurants also serve one or more soups (in addition to the hot soy milk or something similar). Tea is an integral part of such a meal. Traditionally, it might have been the center of the meal, although, in the American version, that's hardly the case. In fact, the Wiki article on dim-sum goes further: "Going for dim sum is usually known in Cantonese as going to "drink tea" (yum cha, ??)." In general, the Wiki article is sloppy and somewhat tendentious, but it's worth checking out. In particular, it starts out with an important bit for this discussion: "Dim sum is a Cantonese term for snack. However, dimsum more typically refers to a style of Chinese food prepared as small bite-sized or individual portions of food, traditionally served in small steamer baskets or on small plates." Now, "snack" could also mean a number of things. It can be a small meal or consumption of something edible that is consumed between meals--e.g., an apple, a candy bar, a cookie. The third meaning is an item for such an interlude--i.e., the apple or candy bar itself. So, while the entire dim-sum meal is certainly not a snack, each individual item may well be considered a snack in that third sense. Perhaps, in French it would sound different, but we are talking about Chinese food, not French haute cuisine. As Wilson keeps reminding us, your mileage may vary. But that's my take on dim-sum. VS-) PS: I am not trying to represent anything in a particular authentic spelling. For example, shao-mai can be written as shumai or in a number of other ways and it's a common item in supermarket freezers (and, lately, at sushi counters). Har-gao is another one with a multitude of spellings, but, despite Wiki claim of it being "traditional", it's actually a fairly recent invention--in particular, the translucent dough wrapper is by no means traditional and has been around for less than 50 years (according to one of my Chinese cookbooks). Many items have been invented in Hong Kong, some in Singapore and some actually have been brought back to China from the US. Tracking down the history of each dim-sum item is very difficult at this point. What people think is traditional may well be endemic to a particular city. On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:04 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > >> > >> How about "in Cantonese cooking, small dishes of food often served from > carts in a restaurant." > >> > >> Dim sum is served outside strictly Cantonese restaurants now, > > > > I've had good dim sum in a Hunanese restaurant. Maybe "Chinese" would be > safer. > > I suppose it comes down to how people perceive it, though ultimately I > think you're right. > > > > >> I think, so perhaps that is too restrictive. Also, maybe "often served" > should be "traditionally served" or "typically served." > > Sounds good to me. (On various levels.) > >> > >> I've eaten tapas and pintxos only in three or four places. In my > experience, tapas are not necessarily snacks, though pintxos are. (I've > eaten a whole meal on pintxos, but it took quite a few dishes?) The > non-savory dishes I definitely recall are dates and chocolate. I think the > dates had cheese inside, but the chocolate simply was not savory by any > means. > >> > > Well, presumably it would be in the broader sense (= 'tasty, > appetizing'), in which case it's not opposed to "sweet". > > > > That's another reason to dislike the word "savory": It's confusing! Is this > meaning of "savory" basically applied when you eat something and say, "That > was scrumptious"? > > I can't imagine anyone wanting to point at cuisine 1 and call it savory > (tasty, appetizing) and cuisine 2 and call it not savory, so I have trouble > figuring out how using this word would make a useful contrast. > > BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 07:00:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:00:02 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Never" is a funny word. Right after I sent it, I realized that someone might come up with a 24-hour dim-sum place, say, in LA. Sure, no problem--such places may exist. But that's a marketing issue, not a traditional one. I hope the distinction is clear. It's like 24-hour breakfast at Denny's or IHOP--yeah, it exists, but it's not really breakfast, is it? VS-) On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 2:55 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ... > Although most American Chinese restaurants serve dim-sum only on weekends > (sometimes only one day a week), in larger cities (NYC, Boston, Chicago, > SF), there are now numerous restaurants that specialize in dim sum and serve > it daily, although never after 3 pm (some only until 2 pm). But even at > these locations, the selection is more limited during the week than it is on > weekends. > ... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 07:43:57 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:43:57 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108180117.p7HJ7pJV015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wouldn't that be a "disavowal"? Question to GAT: when you refer to "letter counters", do you mean literals or missives? Put another way: characters or mailed messages? VS-) PS: Yes, that was a rhetorical question (the second, not the first). On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a > > crook", was that an avowal? > > I'd say so. He avowed (asserted, claimed, declared) that he was not a > crook. So it was an avowal, a claim, and a declaration. On the other hand, > I'm not sure I'd call it an assertion, partly because "denial" is such a > handy way of characterizing assertions with negative content. YMMV. > > LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 08:19:49 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:19:49 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108180655.p7I4Ng5m011522@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A nice summary. I recall being told that dim sum is served in that same time range, but was not aware of its place in the diet. I don't think I've ever had dim sum before 11:30--my impression is that that's when the restaurants start serving--so it doesn't seem like a brunch thing to me. The question at hand is not only understanding how dim sum operates traditionally, but how it's understood in English. We certainly have places here in Seattle that serve far past the traditional time. The Bamboo Village, for example, serves until 9 or 10 pm (http://www.yelp.com/biz/bamboo-village-seattle). They also start at 10:30 am, showing that my impression of the start time is either outdated or just wrong. One of the interesting questions is what happens to yumcha in English. My recollection is hearing people say the somewhat awkward "Let's go yumcha" because "yum" is a verb. I was told that's because you're supposed to drink a cup of tea for each dish to aid in the digestion of the oils. The Japanese article says that there are different explanations for the origin of the word dim sum, but that in any case, it's a little something you eat between meals. That sounds like snack food, which is perhaps how many people understand it in the English-speaking world. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 17, 2011, at 11:55 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Only last week I had a discussion with a Chinese friend (don't recall the > specific place of origin, but it is South Coastal China). And I was > corrected (unnecessarily, as it turned out--the distinction was not relevan= > t > to the point I was making) that dim-sum is never served past mid-afternoon, > although one can certainly buy dim-sum items and eat them at his leisure. > That is, dim-sum is traditionally a morning-to-early afternoon meal or > snack, i.e., the spot traditionally occupied in American cuisine (if there > is such a thing) as "brunch". You don't have dim-sum for lunch or for > dinner--or, for that matter, for breakfast, nor do you have "dim-sum lunch" > or "dim-sum brunch"--it's just "dim-sum". This does not mean, of course, > that no one uses these expressions, just that they are not what is normally > intended by "dim-sum" (i.e., those uses might well be considered > non-standard--for a time). > > Although most American Chinese restaurants serve dim-sum only on weekends > (sometimes only one day a week), in larger cities (NYC, Boston, Chicago, > SF), there are now numerous restaurants that specialize in dim sum and serv= > e > it daily, although never after 3 pm (some only until 2 pm). But even at > these locations, the selection is more limited during the week than it is o= > n > weekends. > > Tea is an integral part of such a meal. Traditionally, it might have been > the center of the meal, although, in the American version, that's hardly th= > e > case. In fact, the Wiki article on dim-sum goes further: "Going for dim sum > is usually known in Cantonese as going to "drink tea" (yum cha, =E9=A3=B2= > =E8=8C=B6)." > > In general, the Wiki article is sloppy and somewhat tendentious, but it's > worth checking out. In particular, it starts out with an important bit for > this discussion: "Dim sum is a Cantonese term for snack. However, dimsum > more typically refers to a style of Chinese food prepared as small > bite-sized or individual portions of food, traditionally served in small > steamer baskets or on small plates." > > Now, "snack" could also mean a number of things. It can be a small meal or > consumption of something edible that is consumed between meals--e.g., an > apple, a candy bar, a cookie. The third meaning is an item for such an > interlude--i.e., the apple or candy bar itself. So, while the entire dim-su= > m > meal is certainly not a snack, each individual item may well be considered = > a > snack in that third sense. Perhaps, in French it would sound different, but > we are talking about Chinese food, not French haute cuisine. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK Thu Aug 18 08:29:18 2011 From: D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:29:18 +0100 Subject: swear word Message-ID: Victor said: "From one of the Christmas episodes of The Vicar of Dibley (still being rerun on PBS): Choir leader: Why is Jesus special? Boy: His name is a swear word?" Presumably this was to note the use of 'swear word' and not 'curse word' for blasphemous language / an obscenity? 'Swear word' is the usual BrE lexeme for these things - so much so that, when I went to the States, I found the AmE term a strange description of 'shit', 'fuck' and other obscenities that weren't blasphemous, and I still do. Some raw ghits (these search-terms in sites in the domain .uk): Swear word - about 158,000 Swearword - about 106,000 Curse word - about 84,000 Curseword - about 23,200 So it's not as overwhelming as I thought in favour of 'swear( )word', and these figures also speak against my feeling that the usual BrE way to spell it was without a space. Still, the relative popularity of 'swear( )word' also comes out clearly here: http://bit.ly/SwearWordCurseWordBrE_Ngram Damien -- Damien Hall University of Kent (UK) Leverhulme Early Career Fellow, 'Towards a New Linguistic Atlas of France' English Language and Linguistics, School of European Culture and Languages ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 08:50:28 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 04:50:28 -0400 Subject: swear word In-Reply-To: <201108180829.p7HJ7pX5015382@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I can't speak as to the spelling, as this was a live transcription. But I certainly agree with the rest of the analysis. I suppose, one would also have to add "cuss words". I'm also not sure where "profanity" would fit vis-a-vis "obscenity". VS-) PS: Is "cuss" a possible product of word-avoidance from "curse". On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 4:29 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > > Victor said: > > "From one of the Christmas episodes of The Vicar of Dibley (still being > rerun > on PBS): > > Choir leader: Why is Jesus special? > Boy: His name is a swear word?" > > Presumably this was to note the use of 'swear word' and not 'curse word' > for blasphemous language / an obscenity? 'Swear word' is the usual BrE > lexeme for these things - so much so that, when I went to the States, I > found the AmE term a strange description of 'shit', 'fuck' and other > obscenities that weren't blasphemous, and I still do. > > Some raw ghits (these search-terms in sites in the domain .uk): > > Swear word - about 158,000 > > Swearword - about 106,000 > > Curse word - about 84,000 > > Curseword - about 23,200 > > So it's not as overwhelming as I thought in favour of 'swear( )word', and > these figures also speak against my feeling that the usual BrE way to spell > it was without a space. Still, the relative popularity of 'swear( )word' > also comes out clearly here: > > http://bit.ly/SwearWordCurseWordBrE_Ngram > > Damien > > -- > > Damien Hall ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 18 12:41:29 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:41:29 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: VS: "Question to GAT: when you refer to "letter counters", do you mean literals or missives? Put another way: characters or mailed messages?" It's my impression that no one actually reads the letters that constituents send to congressmen, &c. -- unless perhaps there is a large check enclosed. I believe that the emails are looked at by a staffer, whose assignment is to report to the boss that there were 47 letters regarding whatever, and that 34 of them were in favor and 13 opposed. These do-gooding organizations want me to write my congressman and urge me to write my own letter instead of using their form letter, but since I suppose that whatever argument I might present, however cogent, will not be read, let alone absorbed and heeded, I am content just to send the form email. GAT On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 3:43 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > Wouldn't that be a "disavowal"? > > Question to GAT: when you refer to "letter counters", do you mean literals > or missives? Put another way: characters or mailed messages? > > VS-) > > PS: Yes, that was a rhetorical question (the second, not the first). > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn >wrote: > > > > > On Aug 17, 2011, at 9:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > > > > I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a > > > crook", was that an avowal? > > > > I'd say so. He avowed (asserted, claimed, declared) that he was not a > > crook. So it was an avowal, a claim, and a declaration. On the other > hand, > > I'm not sure I'd call it an assertion, partly because "denial" is such a > > handy way of characterizing assertions with negative content. YMMV. > > > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 13:28:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:28:51 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <56C36065-17E7-4AC8-B4A1-1E75AC957AC5@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >will count double. At least that's how the places in the respective >S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the plates had different shapes that correlated with the prices. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 13:32:04 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:32:04 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <8023591235008743132@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: At 8/17/2011 09:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a >crook", was that an avowal? Yes. But I would be very confused if I saw a headline that said "Nixon avows crooking", or "Letter counters crooking avowal from Nixon". (And not because it said "crooking".) Joel >Sent from my iPhone > >On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: > >> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of > the front page > >> of today's Times, laid out thus: > >> Letter counters > >> hacking avowals > >> from News Corp > >> > >> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People > >> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." > >> ... > >> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) > >> weren't misled. > > > > I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do > > read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped > > through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all > > on one line. > > > > Joel > > > > > >> GAT > >> > >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> > >>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: > >>> > >>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." > >>> > >>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal > >>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by > >>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. > >>> > >>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the > >>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; > >>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of > >>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking > >>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is > >>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, > >>> > >>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." > >>> > >>> would have been much realer. > >>> > >>> Joel > >>> > >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ > >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> George A. Thompson > >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", > Northwestern Univ. > >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 14:33:00 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:33:00 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108181329.p7IDSufC001762@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 9:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >> one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >> dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >> will count double. At least that's how the places in the respective >> S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. > > Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the > past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the > plates had different shapes that correlated with the prices. > And evidently there are current dialects that go by colors rather than shapes or numbers. Let a hundred dim sum (bill counting methods) bloom! LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 16:06:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:06:46 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <7.1.0.9.2.20110818092521.026deb28@att.net> Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 09:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >>one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >>dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >>will count double. At least that's how the places in the >>respective S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. > >Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the >past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the plates and, as Victor has reminded me, baskets ,,, >had different shapes that correlated with the prices. And, obviously, the waiter counted the baskets at the end of the meal. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 16:15:39 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:15:39 -0700 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: <201108181607.p7IEQ1r4006908@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 9:06 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/18/2011 09:28 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> At 8/17/2011 08:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> I was thinking more of the practice of bringing a special item on >>> one dish resting on another one, so that when they total up the >>> dishes at the end of the feast (snackfest?), those special items >>> will count double. At least that's how the places in the >>> respective S.F. and NYC Chinatowns used to do it. >> >> Perhaps the following is for DARE? In Boston (NYC is too far in the >> past for me to remember) I don't recall doubled plates; rather, the plates > > and, as Victor has reminded me, baskets ,,, > >> had different shapes that correlated with the prices. > > And, obviously, the waiter counted the baskets at the end of the meal. > This is the practice at kaiten sushi as well (or different sized/colored plates). I recall being told that a lot of restaurants don't do it because people hide plates. BB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 16:22:43 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:22:43 -0400 Subject: Dim sum =? savory snack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 02:55 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >I'm a bit concerned about this thread because many of the post do not >necessarily reflect my own experience with dim-sum. I tried to put some >notes together--some may be wrong, so feel free to correct them at any >point. > >First, the word has come to represent many things, some likely broader than >I would feel comfortable using. It refers to a style of meal, the meal >itself, items served at such a meal, items typical of such a meal but not >necessarily served at one, all Chinese savory "mini-bites" such as shao-mai >and har-gao. Furthermore, restaurants that serve such a meal are also >sometimes referred to as "dim-sum" or "dim-sum X", where X stands for >anything that traditional may identify a restaurant (e.g., restaurant, >place, joint, house). "Going for dim-sum" usually means a visit to such a >restaurant--irrespectively of whether this is a specialty of the house or a >sideline, perhaps offered only once or twice a week. And if you go to your >local Costco, you may find a plastic tray full of prepared dumplings (to be >microwaved), with a big "Dim-Sum" label across the top. I've also seen some >simple shao-mai packages labeled as "dim-sum". I imagine many of Victor's senses above would be treated by a dictionary as attributive uses. To me, dim sum are what is aet. >... >Meal content: Most of the items are quite small and served on small >plates--sometimes still inside the individual steamer baskets in which they >were prepared (if steamed). But this is by no means exclusive. Such >specialties as steamed greens, clams, jellyfish, chicken feet, etc., are >often served on larger plates and must be ordered separately. To the best of >my understanding, this is not an Americanized addition, but a part of a >traditional meal. I would argue that such dishes are not dim sum themselves, but dishes that are offered -- and sometimes selected and aet -- at "dim sum restaurants", or "dim sum meals". >... The most common >service consists of "waitresses" pushing carts around the floor of the >restaurant, each cart containing stacks of plates, usually representing a >particular kind of items. The best, and freshest and hottest, dim sum I've ever had were served at a hotel restaurant in Taipei (in the 1980s), were ordered off a menu, and were brought from the kitchen by the serving staff on trays. (They were still on small plates for each group of 2-4 identical items.) >... Not all cart contain pre-plated items. >For example, hot soy milk or hot almond-flavored "soup" may be ladled into >individual bowls at the table. This too I would not call a dim sum item. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 18 16:31:25 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:31:25 -0400 Subject: profanity vs. obscenity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 04:50 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >I'm also not sure where "profanity" would fit >vis-a-vis "obscenity". My experience with the Puritans says (IIRC) that they distinguished. Although the OED doesn't - see "profanity": "... a profane or obscene act or word". (It doesn't include "profane" under "obscenity".) And under "obscenity" there is a quotation that does distinguish: 1768 H. Brooke Fool of Quality III. xvi. 243 Whenever he hear'd any Profaneness or Obscenity in the Streets, he would stop to reprove and expostulate with the Offender. I wouldn't be surprised to find the distinction defined in British (or colonial) law or commentary. Blackstone, anyone? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 18:46:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:46:07 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. Message-ID: Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his girlfriend, because "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 18 18:53:14 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:53:14 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say > that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his > girlfriend, because > > "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." > I haven't heard that one. Besides heading "down east" (northward) in Maine, there's also the lower Cape (Cape Cod, e.g. Provincetown at the very northernmost tip) vs. the upper Cape, the latter to the south of the former. But I hadn't come across references to RI as "up" from Boston. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 19:39:07 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:39:07 -0400 Subject: Jersey-Shore-isms Message-ID: "Did you see the size of the _herpy_ on her lip?!" "you won't be able to get rid of him! He's like _herps_!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 19:50:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:50:16 -0400 Subject: solitaire Message-ID: Perhaps I do not understand how OED entries are constructed. But consider the following: Solitaire, n. > 3. A game which can be played by one person: > > a. One of various kinds of card-games. > > b. A game played on a board with marbles or pegs, which have to be removed > by jumping as in draughts. > Only 3.b. has citations (from 1746 to 1873). Then I come across this (Amazon.com): http://goo.gl/71vPt > There are infinite ways to play with Rory's Story Cubes. You can play > solitaire or with others. > ... > This pocket-sized creative story generator provides hours of imaginative > fun for all ages. The Story Cubes are nine dice with a different icon on > each side. Roll the cubes and look at the face up images. Pick an image that > will be the starting point for your story. > There is also an adjective entry: Obs. > Solitary, in various senses. But the latest citation on that one is 1647. Another point is that the last two citations under noun 3.b. refer to "solitaire-board". No separate subentry is listed for "solitaire board" compound, although the layout of cards in a solitaire game is often referred to as "the board" as well (also the case in other games). Under board n. 2.c. 2. c. spec. The tablet or frame on which some games are played, as > chess-board, draught-board, bagatelle-board, backgammon-board; the frame > used for scoring at cribbage. Also, the target in the game of darts. Often > fig. > Again, a restricted meaning--only the physical board is mentioned, not the layout. I suppose, one could say that "layout" is a metaphorical sense for a physical game board, but it still needs to be mentioned. Then there is the second game sense, apparently unrelated: > 3. b. In pl., playing-cards. slang. > > 1923 S. T. Felstead Underworld of London i. 11 The?steward [at the Cardsharpers' Club] is a well-known criminal famous for his skill with the ?boards?. > 1927 E. Wallace Mixer i. 7 The greatest and most amazingly clever card-sharp that ever handled the ?boards?. In any case, I am somewhat confused by the "solitaire" entry. The main header has a good definition, but the split subentries are too restrictive. Shouldn't the main head be 3.a. and the other two b. and c. (all three with examples)? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 18 19:57:45 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:57:45 -0400 Subject: Reversed "avowal" In-Reply-To: <201108181332.p7IAlHXW014312@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So the whole thread was because a headline writer made a mistake by omitting a negative? DanG On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/17/2011 09:12 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >>I am finding this thread very confusing. When Nixon said, "I am not a >>crook", was that an avowal? > > Yes. But I would be very confused if I saw a headline that said > "Nixon avows crooking", or "Letter counters crooking avowal from > Nixon". (And not because it said "crooking".) > > Joel > > >>Sent from my iPhone >> >>On Aug 17, 2011, at 7:52 PM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: >> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> > Sender: American Dialect Society >> > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> > Subject: Re: Reversed "avowal" >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > At 8/17/2011 07:13 PM, George Thompson wrote: >> >> This is the headline of the story at the upper left corner of >> the front page >> >> of today's Times, laid out thus: >> >> Letter counters >> >> hacking avowals >> >> from News Corp >> >> >> >> I read it several times before I could interpret it otherwise than "People >> >> who count letters have hacked avowals issued by the News Corp." >> >> ... >> >> Those of you who see the Times only on-line (and aren't simple-minded) >> >> weren't misled. >> > >> > I was misled, but in a different way (see my original post). I do >> > read the Times on paper, but "fortunately" the headline only seeped >> > through to my consciousness on the continuation page, where it's all >> > on one line. >> > >> > Joel >> > >> > >> >> GAT >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >> >> >>> Headline, NYTimes, Aug.17, page 1, col. 1, and repeated inside: >> >>> >> >>> "Letter counters hacking avowals from News Corp." >> >>> >> >>> The letter was written by Clive Goodman, un-rehired former royal >> >>> correspondent for the News of the World, who is disputing claims by >> >>> various News Corp. executives and editors that they knew nothing. >> >>> >> >>> This "avowal" is certainly not an "I do" (or "I did") hacking -- the >> >>> OED definition is "An act of avowing; acknowledgement, declaration; >> >>> unconstrained admission or confession" -- but rather a denial of >> >>> hacking. (They certainly did not admit or confess; even "hacking >> >>> *declaration*" would tend towards the incorrect meaning.) It is >> >>> perhaps their avowal that they knew nothing . Still, >> >>> >> >>> "Letter counters hacking denials from News Corp." >> >>> >> >>> would have been much realer. >> >>> >> >>> Joel >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> George A. Thompson >> >> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", >> Northwestern Univ. >> >> Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ >> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 18 20:21:20 2011 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:21:20 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane Message-ID: Obscene in Words and Phrases is "offensive to modesty and descensy". Profane in the same is "implying divine condemnation". But, this is early 20th century, not the 21st. DKB Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Aug 18 21:36:58 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:36:58 -0400 Subject: darby Message-ID: "darby" = handcuffs is in HDAS, and is well covered in Green's Dictionary of Slang. The following, though, seems to be the earliest appearance in America. Moreover, all of Green's 18th C citations show the word as cant -- most of them are expressly from a "cant song" or the like. So this is the earliest appearance, it seems, in standard English. [an ad for two runaways, from Baltimore: "Richard Dawson, an English convict", and "Solomon, a Negro"] Had on when he went away, an iron collar, a darby on each leg with a chain to one of them, all double rivetted, a new felt hat, old brown cloth coat. . . . Dunlap's Pennsylvania Packet, or, the General Advertiser, May 22, 1775, p. 1 (from Readex's Early American Newspapers) GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 18 23:00:43 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:00:43 -0700 Subject: More lo fan(s) (1948) Message-ID: On April 2, 2005, I noted (http://ow.ly/66ZEU) that the OED does not list "lo fan." It still does not. Lisa See uses the term in three novels starting in 1995: "On Gold Mountain," "Shanghai Girls," and "Dreams of Joy: A Novel" (http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&q=%22lo+fan%22+%22lisa+see%22). Earlier citations: 1. 1948 - lo fan "New York: confidential!" by Jack Lait, Lee Mortimer, Ziff-Davis Pub. Co., page 86 (http://ow.ly/66ZlJ) ----- The Chinese call us "white devils," _lo fan_ or or _fan guey_,? ----- 2. 1981 - lo fans "The ethnic dilemma in social services" by Shirley Jenkins, Free Press, page 116 (http://ow.ly/66Zuk) ----- ?think of the future. _Lo-fans_ think only of the present." ?Many Indians do receive one or another form of welfare, and many _lo-fans_ also are concerned about the future. ----- 3. 1981 - a lo fan Same book page 113 (http://ow.ly/66Zwa) ----- A Chinese mother said, "I'd rather have a _lo-fan_ who loves children than a Chinese who doesn't." ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 19 00:30:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:30:06 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/18/2011 02:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >On Aug 18, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say > > that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his > > girlfriend, because > > > > "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." > > >I haven't heard that one. Besides heading "down east" (northward) >in Maine, there's also the lower Cape (Cape Cod, e.g. Provincetown >at the very northernmost tip) vs. the upper Cape, the latter to the >south of the former. But I hadn't come across references to RI as >"up" from Boston. I haven't heard it either. But Wilson's speaker is logical -- if Maine is down (east) from Massachusetts, then Rhode Island surely is up. As for the lower vs. upper Cape, that has always seemed logical to me. The lower Cape is further out from the main body of Massachusetts than the upper Cape, just as the lower arm is further out from the body than the upper arm. I don't try to correlate north-south with upper-lower. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 19 01:25:50 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:25:50 -0400 Subject: Maine is _down_ east of Massachusetts. In-Reply-To: <201108190030.p7J0U6Gp016875@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2011, at 8:30 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/18/2011 02:53 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> On Aug 18, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> >> > Everyone's familiar with that one. I've just heard a Bostonian say >> > that he doesn't like to go to Rhode Island, even to see his >> > girlfriend, because >> > >> > "There's nothing to do, _up_ there." >> > >> I haven't heard that one. Besides heading "down east" (northward) >> in Maine, there's also the lower Cape (Cape Cod, e.g. Provincetown >> at the very northernmost tip) vs. the upper Cape, the latter to the >> south of the former. But I hadn't come across references to RI as >> "up" from Boston. > > I haven't heard it either. But Wilson's speaker is logical -- if > Maine is down (east) from Massachusetts, then Rhode Island surely is up. > > As for the lower vs. upper Cape, that has always seemed logical to > me. The lower Cape is further out from the main body of > Massachusetts than the upper Cape, just as the lower arm is further > out from the body than the upper arm. I don't try to correlate > north-south with upper-lower. > Here's wikipedia on the topic, with more explanations than you could shake a windblown stick at (scaled maps, winds, body part metaphors)?everything but north and south, which would indeed mispredict in this case: The terms "Upper" and "Lower" derive from early usage and reliance on scaled maps and charts. When one travelled to the east, one went down the scale (toward zero at Greenwich, England). On the other hand, travel to the west was up the scale. To this day, on nearby Martha's Vineyard, "Up Island" is the western section and "Down Island" is to the east. And in Maine, the eastern portion of the state is called "Down East." Also, prevailing fair weather winds out of the southwest have been used as the basis for the designations, as winds have traditionally been a basis for directional descriptions by European settlers and their descendants in eastern North America. That is, one would be travelling "down [wind]" to the east with a westerly wind at one's back. The best known colloquial reference, however, is the "arm" shape of the peninsula as it appears on maps and charts, thus making the southern portion of the Cape the "Upper Arm", Orleans the "Elbow," and the north-south portion that is most like an Atlantic barrier island, the "Lower Arm." Some even refer to Provincetown as the "Hand," with its various points (e.g., the current Race Point, Wood End, and Long Point) as fingers. In the late nineteenth century, as the Cape began drawing more vacationers and artists on retreat, the nautical nomenclature and potential negative connotation of referring to the towns from Orleans to Provincetown as the "Lower Cape," lost favor to the simpler "Outer Cape." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU Fri Aug 19 04:57:30 2011 From: nunberg at ISCHOOL.BERKELEY.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:57:30 -0700 Subject: profanity vs. obscenity Message-ID: > From: "Joel S. Berson" > Date: August 18, 2011 9:31:25 AM PDT > Subject: Re: profanity vs. obscenity > > > At 8/18/2011 04:50 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >> I'm also not sure where "profanity" would fit >> vis-a-vis "obscenity". > > My experience with the Puritans says (IIRC) that they > distinguished. Although the OED doesn't - see "profanity": "... a > profane or obscene act or word". (It doesn't include "profane" under > "obscenity".) And under "obscenity" there is a quotation that does > distinguish: > > 1768 H. Brooke Fool of Quality III. xvi. 243 Whenever he hear'd > any Profaneness or Obscenity in the Streets, he would stop to reprove > and expostulate with the Offender. > > I wouldn't be surprised to find the distinction defined in British > (or colonial) law or commentary. Blackstone, anyone? > > Joel There's a very good discussion of this in Joss Marsh's Word Crimes (Chicago 1998). The crucial legal distinction is between obscenity and blasphemy, which was the historical basis for condemning profanity. The blurring of the boundaries began in the mid-eighteenth century, he says, when e.g. Wilkes' Essay on Woman was deemed both obscene and impious. Later, "blasphemy was submerged in obscentity" in the 19th c. (p 208 ff): "In the mid-nineteenth century mundane circumstances seemed to conspire to produce it. Smutty and irreligious books looked the same, for a start. Both were sold under the counter, clandestinely. Both were denied the protection of copyright. Sentences for obscenity tended to be lighter;.. By the mid-nineteenth century, obscenity like blasphemy had undergone two centuries' parallel progress from religious 'sin' to secular 'crime.'" There's also one-stop shopping on this in Leonard Levy's book Blasphemy (Knopf 1993). The extension of 'profanity' to other than religiously based oaths is quite late, I think. The earliest cite that makes this use explicit in the OED is from a 1969 letter from Hunter S Thompson ("I was particularly struck by the fact that you ?take exception to the profanities utilized in (my) letter??. and to that I can only say Fuck Off"). But Burgess Johnson, a critic who had earlier written a nostalgic book called The Lost Art of Profanity, in which the term referred only to damn, hell, etc., wrote dismissively of WWII solider talk in a 1954 NYT article: "The profanity of the army is a poverty-stricken thing? current profanity consists of a pitifully small supply of words used an astonishing number of times, even in a brief conversation." In the context, 'profanity' can only have referred to obscene words. That use probably goes back earlier than this but by not a whole lot, I would guess. Actually the OED's def is a little misleading here. It gives as part of the general meaning, " a profane or obscene act or word (freq. in pl.," but that meaning wasn't operative until the mid-20th century: at the time of the earlier cites, the term didn't comprehend obscene acts. This is a type of anachronism I've run into before, but I can certainly appreciate the dilemma these words pose for the definers. Geoff ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK Fri Aug 19 09:13:26 2011 From: D.Hall at KENT.AC.UK (Damien Hall) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:13:26 +0100 Subject: obscene vs. profane Message-ID: David said: 'Obscene in Words and Phrases is "offensive to modesty and descensy". Profane in the same is "implying divine condemnation". But, this is early 20th century, not the 21st.' So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that term), there are: * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as meaning a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' refers specifically to an offence against a divinity; * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' together (as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its own as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' more nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, maybe that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or 'profane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least one of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these threads, though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting opinions or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, whether any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three have distinct meanings (for at least some people). Damien -- Damien Hall University of Kent (UK) Leverhulme Early Career Fellow, 'Towards a New Linguistic Atlas of France' English Language and Linguistics, School of European Culture and Languages ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 09:21:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 05:21:38 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane In-Reply-To: <201108190913.p7J0FtaW014312@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I like this division. It answers a part of my question (along with all the other responses). And, I suspect, I belong to the same set for adjectives, but not for nouns. (That is, I would NOT group blasphemy and profanity together.) VS-) On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > > So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that > term), there are: > > > * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as > meaning= > a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' > ref= > ers specifically to an offence against a divinity; > > * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' together > (= > as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its > ow= > n as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? > > I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' more > = > nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, > may= > be that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or > 'prof= > ane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least > one= > of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these > threads,= > though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting > opinion= > s or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, > whether= > any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three have > = > distinct meanings (for at least some people). > > Damien ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 12:56:39 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:56:39 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane In-Reply-To: <201108190921.p7J53fWE030270@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Missourian William W. Hunter wrote from near Placea, N.M., on July 21, 1849, that the men he knew JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:21 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: obscene vs. profane > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I like this division. It answers a part of my question (along with all the > other responses). And, I suspect, I belong to the same set for adjectives, > but not for nouns. (That is, I would NOT group blasphemy and profanity > together.) > > VS-) > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote: > > > > > So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that > > term), there are: > > > > > > * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as > > meaning= > > a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' > > ref= > > ers specifically to an offence against a divinity; > > > > * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' together > > (= > > as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its > > ow= > > n as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? > > > > I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' > more > > = > > nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, > > may= > > be that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or > > 'prof= > > ane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least > > one= > > of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these > > threads,= > > though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting > > opinion= > > s or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, > > whether= > > any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three > have > > = > > distinct meanings (for at least some people). > > > > Damien > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 13:02:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:02:25 -0400 Subject: obscene vs. profane In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I meant to hit "discard" on that. It was an 1849 ex. of "profane songs" that I decided was more likely to mean "secular" than "obscene." JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Missourian William W. Hunter wrote from near Placea, N.M., on July 21, > 1849, that the men he knew > > > JL > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:21 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: victor steinbok >> Subject: Re: obscene vs. profane >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I like this division. It answers a part of my question (along with all the >> other responses). And, I suspect, I belong to the same set for adjectives, >> but not for nouns. (That is, I would NOT group blasphemy and profanity >> together.) >> >> VS-) >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote: >> >> > >> > So, in the superset {obscene, profane, blasphemous} (if I may use that >> > term), there are: >> > >> > >> > * some who would group 'obscene' and 'profane' together (as >> > meaning= >> > a stronger version of 'unseemly' or 'offensive'), while 'blasphemous' >> > ref= >> > ers specifically to an offence against a divinity; >> > >> > * whereas others would group 'profane' and 'blasphemous' >> together >> > (= >> > as referring to an offence against a divinity), leaving 'obscene' on its >> > ow= >> > n as meaning roughly 'unseemly' or 'offensive'? >> > >> > I think I would belong to the second set ('profane' and 'blasphemous' >> more >> > = >> > nearly synonymous than either of them is with 'obscene'). In any case, >> > may= >> > be that's why it didn't even occur to me to talk about 'profanity' or >> > 'prof= >> > ane' in my post: I think of them as meaning almost the same as at least >> > one= >> > of the two terms already in the discussion. As so often in these >> > threads,= >> > though, it'd be interesting to know whether there were conflicting >> > opinion= >> > s or currents about how these words should be grouped semantically, >> > whether= >> > any two of them can be grouped together at all, or whether all three >> have >> > = >> > distinct meanings (for at least some people). >> > >> > Damien >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 13:40:02 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:40:02 -0400 Subject: "staged" Message-ID: A lot of people believe that Joe Rosenthal's famous photo of the flag-raising on Mt. Suribachi was "staged." In fact, somebody wrote to the _New Yorker_ recently to make that claim and the editors printed the letter. Without going in to the details of the non-"staged" Suribachi photo, I direct your attention to the following: "As for whether or not the photo was staged, Craig says no way. 'The big debate about the picture, which everyone always wants to know, is: Was it staged? No! No, no, no! You don't have 15 men in a picture and take just two shots. The men were just there . . . . The only thing that happened was that Ruth Orkin was wise enough to ask me to turn around and go back and repeat' the walk down the street." The photo in question is here: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/american-girl-italy-60-years-later-221005987.html The issue in both cases is the meaning of "staged." To me, a photo is staged if conditions are carefully created by the photographer to make a stunning photograph. That was certainly not the case on Iwo Jima. As for the photo of the Ninalee Craig: the fact that Ruth Orkin had her subject walk down the same street in front of the same men a second time, for the specific purpose of making a photo, comes awfully damned close. It is not, as is usually assumed, simply a candid shot of an American girl on an Italian street. Compared to the Suribachi shot, the street scene was very much staged. Of course, neither was "posed," which may be what people are confusing "staged" with. I raise the point because issues of what's real and what's Memorex are becoming ever more significant. JL JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 15:27:13 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:27:13 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" Message-ID: YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated to the Vietnam years. That's when I first heard it. However: Library of Congress Catalog of Copyright Entries: Musical Compositions, Pt. 3, 1941, p. 939: "Love America or leave it alone: w & m Clarence Gaskill, co. May 28, 1941....Saintly-Joy-Select, Inc., 1941." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 18:35:35 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:35:35 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191527.p7JAotrg017264@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated to > the Vietnam years. > > That's when I first heard it. Yes, but I've always interpreted _leave it_ as "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" / "get TF OUT!" whereas "leave it alone" seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 18:58:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:58:38 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191836.p7JEq9tb015472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're right about the short form, Wilson. I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker use. But I digress: 1930 Dr. L. H. Beeler, Grove City College, in _Simpsons' Leader-Times_ (Kittanning, Pa.) (Oct. 29) 1 (NewspaperArchive): Secretary Davis says there are six million aliens in this country who do not want to become American citizens. They come here for three reasons: to spread propoganda [sic], to exploit America, and to encourage financial assistance. If this country is not good enough for them to make it their home, they should be sent back to stay forever. They are working destruction against our institutions and dismembering our ideals and destroying America. The solution to this problem is not difficult - love it or leave it - be loyal or disappear. Beeler was also disturbed by kids at the movies who cheered antisocial acts and by movies that "catered to sex, disloyalty, the broken home, or bootlegging." JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated > to > > the Vietnam years. > > > > That's when I first heard it. > > Yes, but I've always interpreted > > _leave it_ > > as > > "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" > / "get TF OUT!" > > whereas > > "leave it alone" > > seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. > More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 19:04:10 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:04:10 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IN GIANT PRINT: "AMERICA!...LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT "If they don't like it here, why don't they leave?" [Etc., etc.] --_Gettysburg Times_, July 16, 1940, p. 5 (NewspaperArchive) JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're right about the short form, Wilson. > > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > > Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on > the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker > use. > > But I digress: > > 1930 Dr. L. H. Beeler, Grove City College, in _Simpsons' Leader-Times_ > (Kittanning, Pa.) (Oct. 29) 1 (NewspaperArchive): Secretary Davis says there > are six million aliens in this country who do not want to become American > citizens. They come here for three reasons: to spread propoganda [sic], to > exploit America, and to encourage financial assistance. If this country is > not good enough for them to make it their home, they should be sent back to > stay forever. They are working destruction against our institutions and > dismembering our ideals and destroying America. The solution to this problem > is not difficult - love it or leave it - be loyal or disappear. > > Beeler was also disturbed by kids at the movies who cheered antisocial acts > and by movies that "catered to sex, disloyalty, the broken home, or > bootlegging." > > JL > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter >> wrote: >> > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," dated >> to >> > the Vietnam years. >> > >> > That's when I first heard it. >> >> Yes, but I've always interpreted >> >> _leave it_ >> >> as >> >> "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" >> / "get TF OUT!" >> >> whereas >> >> "leave it alone" >> >> seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. >> More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 19:12:30 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:12:30 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191904.p7JEq91P015472@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: After a number of prewar exx., NewspaperArchive shows a huge "Love it or leave it" gap between 1941 and 1970. JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IN GIANT PRINT: > > "AMERICA!...LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT > > "If they don't like it here, why don't they leave?" [Etc., etc.] > > --_Gettysburg Times_, July 16, 1940, p. 5 (NewspaperArchive) > > JL > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter >wrote: > > > You're right about the short form, Wilson. > > > > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. > YBQ > > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > > > > Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on > > the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > > conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive > bumper-sticker > > use. > > > > But I digress: > > > > 1930 Dr. L. H. Beeler, Grove City College, in _Simpsons' Leader-Times_ > > (Kittanning, Pa.) (Oct. 29) 1 (NewspaperArchive): Secretary Davis says > there > > are six million aliens in this country who do not want to become American > > citizens. They come here for three reasons: to spread propoganda [sic], > to > > exploit America, and to encourage financial assistance. If this country > is > > not good enough for them to make it their home, they should be sent back > to > > stay forever. They are working destruction against our institutions and > > dismembering our ideals and destroying America. The solution to this > problem > > is not difficult - love it or leave it - be loyal or disappear. > > > > Beeler was also disturbed by kids at the movies who cheered antisocial > acts > > and by movies that "catered to sex, disloyalty, the broken home, or > > bootlegging." > > > > JL > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Wilson Gray > >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Jonathan Lighter > >> wrote: > >> > YBQ has "America: Love it or Leave it" under "Political Slogans," > dated > >> to > >> > the Vietnam years. > >> > > >> > That's when I first heard it. > >> > >> Yes, but I've always interpreted > >> > >> _leave it_ > >> > >> as > >> > >> "go back where you came from" / "go to someplace that you like better" > >> / "get TF OUT!" > >> > >> whereas > >> > >> "leave it alone" > >> > >> seems milder, much milder, as it travels the thought to your mind. > >> More like, well, if it bothers you, then forget it. Sorry I asked. > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > >> ----- > >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > >> -Mark Twain > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 19 19:13:42 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:13:42 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're right about the short form, Wilson. > > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > > Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on > the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker > use. I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors there. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 19:31:31 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:31:31 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191913.p7JAotBo017264@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in Vietnam. DanG On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> You're right about the short form, Wilson. >> >> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ >> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar >> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. >> >> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came on >> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that >> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive bumper-sticker >> use. > > I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors there. > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 20:21:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:21:08 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191932.p7JAotDK017264@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see that Russell Baker reported the existence of an "America! Love It or Leave It!" bumper sticker in NYT on Oct. 1, 1968. He thought it a novelty. That's after the riot and (heh-heh) almost 1969. JL On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing > the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to > follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in > Vietnam. > > DanG > > > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > >> You're right about the short form, Wilson. > >> > >> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. > YBQ > >> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > >> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > >> > >> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came > on > >> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that > >> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive > bumper-sticker > >> use. > > > > I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic > Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that > crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors > there. > > > > LH > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 20:22:14 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:22:14 -0400 Subject: "You'll get the _top-of-the-notch_ audio quality." [NT] Message-ID: Eh, it's an example. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 20:27:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:27:13 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108191858.p7JHmev4017687@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. YBQ > (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar > words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. > Uh, well, yes. I understood that. But, you know, like, sometimes, I get what, IIRC, The Woman's Home Companion called an _IMP-pulse_. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 19 21:06:11 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:06:11 -0400 Subject: work 'plastic surgery' Message-ID: Not quite plastic surgery, but perhaps a predecessor: In the 1963 movie "Mary, Mary", in the scene where Mary (Debbie Reynolds) first appears, newly beautiful, about 15 minutes in, one of the male characters remarks on her new appearance, "Clearly what we have is a bit of work." The work referred to includes hair, dress, powder, and one or two other things I didn't catch because they were named before my ears caught the "bit of work" quote; I can't say therefore whether anything in the line of surgery -- such as a remodeled nose or chin -- was actually mentioned. "Bit of work" seems to have been common in that period as a reference to various kinds of surgery. That suggests to me that one of the "improvements" I don't remember may have been plastic surgery. The movie is based on the Jean Kerr play of 1961. I haven't found the scripts for either. Joel On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:22:07 -0400 Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Me too. Ten years? More? > >JL > >On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Shapiro, Fred wrote: > > > Subject: Re: work 'plastic surgery' > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I don't move at all in "plastic surgery" circles, but I have been familiar > > with this usage for years. > > > > Fred Shapiro > > > >> Charles C Doyle [cdoyle at UGA.EDU] > > Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 11:09 AM > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: work 'plastic surgery' > > > > Has this newish usage been discussed here? (I can't find any such > > discussion in the ADS-L archive, and I don't see it in UrbanDictionary > > either.) Evidently, we are expected to understand "She (or He) has had > > some (or a little) work done" to be a sort of euphemism for "Her face has > > undergone surgical improvement." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Aug 19 22:16:34 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:16:34 -0500 Subject: Green's Dictionary: "top apple" and one more "big apple" attestation Message-ID: _Green's Dictionary of Slang_, 2010, (by Jonathon Green) is massive (3 volumes, about a thousand pages each).I don't know how he did it, but our field owes a deep debt of gratitude both to him and his uncle whose bequest made Green's magnum opus possible. (Green warmly pays tribute for this in his preface.) Now, for the archives, a bit more information on "the big apple". --- Green's dictionary contains a few previously unnoticed relevant attestations for this term with the meaning "an important person"): 1) Two quotes for "top apple" (an important person); I had not previously come across this entry: 1906 E. DYSON _Fact'ry 'Ands_ 1: She's [...] their top apple, th' ole blessed cake-walk, 'n' straight ez er church. 1956: 'ED LACY' _Men From the Boys_ (1967) 76: For once I want to nail down a big boy, a top apple. And there's one specifically for 'the big apple": 1955 'ED LACY' _Best that Ever Did It_ (1957) 153: Franzino was there, along with two big apples from the Police Department. Incidentally, Green says of 'big apple' and 'top apple' that they are 'US Underworld' -- 'US' is correct, but 'the big apple' (important person or thing) was not limited to the underworld. Gerald Cohen Co-author with Barry Popik of _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple"_ (Frankfurt a. M.: Peter Lang), 2nd edition. 2011. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 22:15:59 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:15:59 -0400 Subject: Judge Judy: "There was a gate. They had somebody there in a _stiff collar_. Nobody got past that gate." Message-ID: Thus spake the judge, reminiscing about her women's-dorm years. Back in Saint Louis we used the term, "stiff _shirt_," to name a starched, collared, white dress-shirt always worn with jacket and tie - in those days, at least - the kind called a _waishatsu_ in Japanese. It's not clear whether Judge Judy's "stiff collar" and my "stiff shirt" have the same meaning. But, WTF, eh? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 23:03:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 19:03:13 -0400 Subject: "=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A6talk_?=about me and say all *kinds* of this, that, and the _third_!" Message-ID: Mid-thirty-ish black dude complaining to Judge Greg that his woman let her friends disrespect him and made no effort to defend his rep. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 19 23:41:30 2011 From: b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 19:41:30 -0400 Subject: On the early days of Philadelphia's Black Friday (ca. 1960) Message-ID: In 1994, Joseph P. Barrett, longtime reporter for *The Philadelphia Bulletin*, wrote a piece for *The Philadelphia Inquirer* [1] on the origin of "Black Friday." Along with a fellow reporter, he seems to have had a major role in popularizing the expression in the city in the early 1960s. Barrett's reminiscence not only lists why police officers had dubbed the day after Thanksgiving "Black Friday" (including that all traffic cops had to report for 12-hour shifts that day), but also describes merchants' displeasure with the term and the city's consequent attempt to rename the day. --------------------------- [Excerpted from "This Friday Was Black with Traffic," 25 November 1994.] http://articles.philly.com/1994-11-25/news/25869629_1_traffic-cop-block-traffic-traffic-policeman In 1959, the old Evening Bulletin assigned me to police administration, working out of City Hall. Nathan Kleger was the police reporter who covered Center City for the Bulletin. In the early 1960s, Kleger and I put together a front-page story for Thanksgiving and we appropriated the police term "Black Friday" to describe the terrible traffic conditions. Center City merchants complained loudly to Police Commissioner Albert N. Brown that drawing attention to traffic deterred customers from coming downtown. I was worried that maybe Kleger and I had made a mistake in using such a term, so I went to Chief Inspector Albert Trimmer to get him to verify it. Trimmer, tongue in cheek, would say only that Black Friday was used to describe the Valentine's Day massacre of mobsters in Chicago. The following year, Brown put out a press release describing the day as ''Big Friday." But Kleger and I held our ground, and once more said it was ''Black Friday." And of course we used it year after year. --------------------------- This 1994 account of the city's attempt to sell everyone on "Big Friday" fits nicely with an overly optimistic blurb that had appeared in a December, 1961 issue of *Public Relations News*. http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1105A&L=ADS-L&P=R15910 -- Bonnie [1] Or *The Philadelphia Daily News*. It's a little unclear to me where this originally appeared, but I'm awaiting confirmation of source. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 20 01:14:53 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:14:53 -0400 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 19, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I see that Russell Baker reported the existence of an "America! Love It or > Leave It!" bumper sticker in NYT on Oct. 1, 1968. He thought it a novelty. > > That's after the riot and (heh-heh) almost 1969. > Well, yes, but if it was showing up in greater New York in October, think how much earlier it was showing up in the real America!! LH > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing >> the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to >> follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in >> Vietnam. >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> You're right about the short form, Wilson. >>>> >>>> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. >> YBQ >>>> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar >>>> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. >>>> >>>> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came >> on >>>> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that >>>> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive >> bumper-sticker >>>> use. >>> >>> I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic >> Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that >> crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors >> there. >>> >>> LH >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 20 15:46:06 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 11:46:06 -0400 Subject: Freudian Message-ID: There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only "Of or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" under compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. Examples: http://goo.gl/o6m9z > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" that > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). http://goo.gl/ogFo6 p. 79 New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, mothering). Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 20 16:38:13 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:38:13 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: <201108201546.p7KAubsJ001397@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I've been using "Freudian" in these senses since the early 1960s. When I first heard about Freud. JL On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 11:46 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Freudian > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only > "Of > or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" > under > compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. > > Examples: > > http://goo.gl/o6m9z > > > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" > that > > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). > > > http://goo.gl/ogFo6 > p. 79 > New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 > Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is > brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the > lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, > mothering). > > Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 04:52:41 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 00:52:41 -0400 Subject: cookies and related stuff Message-ID: What got me going here is the OED definition of a "ginger snap": ginger-snap n. (a) a thin brittle cake flavoured with ginger, (b) (U.S.) a > hot-tempered person, esp. one with carroty hair. OK, I expect "cookie" to be a disfavored term in the OED definition, as it is mostly US (although, I'm sure, it would have showed up in many other places, by now). But, if not cookie, then "biscuit", right? Of course, cookie is also defined as "cake". I am not going to get into an extended discussion of the gaudy "current sense" definition of "cake": A composition having a basis of bread, but containing additional > ingredients, as butter, sugar, spices, currants, raisins, etc. At first, > this was a cake also in form, but it is no longer necessarily so, being now > made of any serviceable, ornamental, or fanciful shape; e.g. a tea-, plum-, > wedding-cake, etc. This was written by someone who's never set his foot in a kitchen or a bakery. There are two kinds of "cakes"--the country/home variety (e.g., ring cake, coffee cake, cream cake, perhaps even bundt cake) and layer cake--the Paris/Viennese variety (layered with creams, fruit fillings, nuts, chocolate, etc.), German chocolate cake, etc. Only one of these resembles "bread" in any way. The other may have "dough" at one stage, but it's not "bread dough" by any stretch of imagination (and some varieties have no flour or dough in them at all!). Items missing under "cookie": cookie-press (a bit more recent than cookie-cutter, but still quite common--a "gun" or a syringe with a cookie-cutter opening, similar to a pastry bag) cookie dough (straight forward, but still used as a combination--one quotation under "paddle") cookie jar (shows up in 5 quotations, but no entry) cookie sheet (flat baking "pan" with no banked edges, as opposed to "jelly-roll sheet/pan" which is flat with raised edges) cookie exchange/swap (exchanging of home-made cookies at Christmas) Other missing cookies: butter cookies--cookies where butter (or butter substitute) is a main ingredient refrigerator/icebox cookies--cookie dough that prepared in advance, refrigerated, then sliced and baked; also, cookie dough sold pre-packaged in supermarkets Christmas/holiday cookies (?) Sadwich cookies are listed--and one of the quotations mentions "chocolate peanut butter cookies". New Year cookies can be found within the definition of New Year (attrib.). Springerle and Springerle cookies are in the same entry (springerle). But Speculaas--which is the Dutch version that is arguably better known--has no entry and not even a single citation. I am not sure if other ingredient-based combinations deserve an entry, such as oatmeal cookies, chocolate cookies, vanilla cookies. But ginger cookie is listed, so why not others? So is molasses cookie. So is "poppy-seed cookie" under attrib. (cake, cookie, roll, etc.). "Chocolate-chip cookie" is under "chocolate", right next to "chocolate cream" (see below) and "chocolate biscuit". Oreo is listed, along with "oreo cookie" 1. orig. U.S. A proprietary name for: a type of black chocolate sandwich > biscuit filled with a white vanilla cream. Also freq. in Oreo cookie. Toll House cookies are listed. Ginger snap is listed as "cake", not "cookie" or "biscuit" (see above). "Vanilla wafer" shows up in a quotation under wafer==ice-cream sandwich, but not as a cookie: 1. b. ellipt., a sandwich of ice-cream between wafers. Cream has no subentry for a variety of filled cookies or biscuits. "Cream cookie" has no entry at all, although "cream cracker" is described as an "unsweetened biscuit" (not the same thing--"cream cookies" are sandwich cookies that have a creamy filling, rather than one of fruit jelly or solid chocolate). No "cream filling" either. Vanilla cream is mentioned in the Oreo lemma, but has no separate entry. Chocolate cream covers both the cream and the candy/confection with cream filling. But when someone refers to boxed chocolates with cream filling as "creams", he better not look for it in the OED--it's not there. Pillow cookies/biscuits don't exist, as far as OED is concerned. Several idiomatic uses are not covered either. "Tough cookie" shows up in 4 separate citations, but has no entry. But "to toss one's cookies" is covered--well, one made it. On the other hand, since "cookie jar" is not there, nor is "[caught with/got one's] hand in the cookie jar". VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 04:57:35 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 00:57:35 -0400 Subject: cookies and related stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One more thing--no cookies-and-cream, which is a fairly recent invention (1970s), first, as an ice cream flavor, then spreading to other concoctions (cakes, shakes, candy flavor, brownie-like bar cookies, etc.). See Wiki article for details. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 21 05:09:33 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 22:09:33 -0700 Subject: cookies and related stuff In-Reply-To: <201108210452.p7KAlmqT030065@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Black and white cookie" surely merits an entry as the meaning cannot be derived from the words alone. "Sugar cookie" is a subentry under sugar. "Madeleine" and "macaroon" are both listed. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 20, 2011, at 9:52 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Other missing cookies: > > butter cookies--cookies where butter (or butter substitute) is a main > ingredient > refrigerator/icebox cookies--cookie dough that prepared in advance, > refrigerated, then sliced and baked; also, cookie dough sold pre-packaged in > supermarkets > Christmas/holiday cookies (?) > > Sadwich cookies are listed--and one of the quotations mentions "chocolate > peanut butter cookies". New Year cookies can be found within the definition > of New Year (attrib.). Springerle and Springerle cookies are in the same > entry (springerle). But Speculaas--which is the Dutch version that is > arguably better known--has no entry and not even a single citation. > > > I am not sure if other ingredient-based combinations deserve an entry, such > as oatmeal cookies, chocolate cookies, vanilla cookies. But ginger cookie is > listed, so why not others? So is molasses cookie. So is "poppy-seed cookie" > under attrib. (cake, cookie, roll, etc.). "Chocolate-chip cookie" is under > "chocolate", right next to "chocolate cream" (see below) and "chocolate > biscuit". ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 06:56:49 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 02:56:49 -0400 Subject: cookies and related stuff In-Reply-To: <201108210509.p7KAlmr9030065@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Madeleine definition is interesting in that it mentions "decorated with coconut and jam". That must be English tradition, as it certainly does not come from the French. Biscotti also has an entry, but under singular "biscotto"--something that is rarely scene outside of Italian restaurant dessert menus. It is also unclear because of the ambiguity of "cake" whether waffle n. a. includes both the American breakfast variety (clearly in 1870 and 1893 quotations--basically a stamped pancake) and the cookie-like variety (possibly in the 1809 and 1817 quotations). a. A kind of batter-cake, baked in a waffle-iron, and eaten hot with butter > or molasses. > 1744 [see waffle frolic n. at Compounds 1]. 1794 [see waffle-iron n. at > Compounds 2]. > 1809 A. Burr Private Jrnl. 26 Aug. (1903) I. 214 Everywhere, too, you > get wafen; our wafles, and made and eaten in the same way. > 1817 M. Birkbeck Notes Journey Amer. (1818) 64 Waffles (a soft hot > cake of German extraction, covered with butter). > 1870 D. Macrae Amer. at Home I. 291 The Americans are all fond of > molasses; using them regularly at breakfast and supper to their buckwheat > cakes and waffles. > 1893 T. N. Page In Ole Virginia 221 He ordered waffles and hoe-cakes > for breakfast. Snickerdoodle has an entry as well. Stroopwafel has no entry--which I actually don't have a problem with, except that the etymology note on "waffle" mentions " than rolled cookies. "Rolled" may be sufficient as is. "Drop-cake" is listed under "drop-". Bar cookies are not mentioned at all. In fact, there is nothing under "bar" that pertains to baked goods. Wiki lists 7 main varieties by type of preparation: drop, refrigerator, rolled, molded, pressed, bar and sandwich. About.com lists the same categories. Other sites add "no-bake" and "cookie-cutter", but these are just variations on "molded" and "icebox/refrigerator". VS-) > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 1:09 AM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > "Black and white cookie" surely merits an entry as the meaning cannot be > derived from the words alone. > > "Sugar cookie" is a subentry under sugar. "Madeleine" and "macaroon" are > both listed. > > Benjamin Barrett > Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 21 12:52:23 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:52:23 +0000 Subject: Freudian Message-ID: These examples all fall well within the "pertaining to Freud's teachings" so a separate definition is unnecessary. Of course, there is often disagreement about what is or is not lexicosemantic and what is encyclopedic. Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: victor steinbok To: Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:46:06 AM GMT-0400 Subject: [ADS-L] Freudian There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only "Of or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" under compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. Examples: http://goo.gl/o6m9z > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" that > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). http://goo.gl/ogFo6 p. 79 New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, mothering). Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 14:13:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:13:01 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: <201108211251.p7LCpupt018051@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: When someone says, "According to Freudian analysis...", that's "pertaining to Freud. On the other hand, when he says, "That looks so Freudian," and means that there is a phallic image, that's not "pertaining to Freud", no matter how that expression might have been derived. VS-) On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Ron Butters wrote: > These examples all fall well within the "pertaining to Freud's teachings" > so a separate definition is unnecessary. Of course, there is often > disagreement about what is or is not lexicosemantic and what is > encyclopedic. > > Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE > > ------Original Message------ > From: victor steinbok > To: > Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011 11:46:06 AM GMT-0400 > Subject: [ADS-L] Freudian > > There is an adjective and a noun entry in the OED. The adjective is only > "Of > or pertaining to Freud or his teaching." There is also "Freudian slip" > under > compounds, but no figurative/ironic sense of Freudian. > > Examples: > > http://goo.gl/o6m9z > > > Moreover, "fascinating new phrases like 'it's so Freudian' ... are on > > everyone's lips" (8) and indeed, Lestat's life story, beginning with "his > > great and unshakable love" for his mother, Gabrielle, is so "Freudian" > that > > one hardly needs to tease out the repressed content (30). > > > http://goo.gl/ogFo6 > p. 79 > New York Magazine. Oct 15, 1984 > Colin Gregg's direction is carefully measured and unobtrusive; he is > brooding, too, about art and family life, philosophy and love, the > lighthouse (so male, so phallic, so Freudian) and the sea (rhythmic waves, > mothering). > > Certainly, substitution of "Freudian" for "phallic" is quite common. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 21 15:16:10 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:16:10 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet Message-ID: Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 15:35:38 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:35:38 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <201108211516.p7LFGBEK030907@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > Joel > A song would be nice too; we could teach it in phonetics classes. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 21 17:46:18 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 13:46:18 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I guess if there are people around who think that "Freudian" means simply "phallic," then OK. But I doubt that it is that simple for most people. At any rate, people who speak of a "Freudian slip" aren't thinking of a penis popping out of someone's pants. A doughnut can be "Freudian." Grapefruit can be "Freudian." Nuts can be "Freudian." Shoving a banana in a milk jug can be "Freudian." KIlling your Dad and marrying your Mom can be "Freudian." It is not so much derivation as it is nonce synecdoche. On Aug 21, 2011, at 10:13 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > When someone says, "According to Freudian analysis...", that's "pertaining to Freud. On the other hand, when he says, "That looks so Freudian," and means that there is a phallic image, that's not "pertaining to Freud", no matter how that expression might have been derived. > > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 17:55:30 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 13:55:30 -0400 Subject: Freudian In-Reply-To: <201108211746.p7LBCU8P012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I thought that was Oedipal ;-) VS-) On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Ronald Butters wrote: > ... KIlling your Dad and marrying your Mom can be "Freudian." > > It is not so much derivation as it is nonce synecdoche. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET Sun Aug 21 19:47:59 2011 From: nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET (Neal Whitman) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:47:59 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <201108211516.p7LB70tg006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" has a new (to me, at least) member. Neal On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Sun Aug 21 19:54:50 2011 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:54:50 -0500 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <29C78863-3937-43B7-948D-F3D63BF74B05@ameritech.net> Message-ID: Not necessarily since the A in IPA can stand for Association. ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Neal Whitman [nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET] Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:47 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Sorting the IPA alphabet I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" has a new (to me, at least) member. Neal On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 19:58:49 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:58:49 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" Message-ID: The article's too brief to be of real interest, but, WTF? http://goo.gl/uZIgu -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 20:02:45 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:02:45 -0400 Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet In-Reply-To: <8B217194D8467B41983FB1D628DE01D55C86242CF7@UM-EMAIL02.um.umsystem.edu> Message-ID: And all three letters can stand for India Pale Ale, the official brew of the phonetics association. (Or it should be.) LH On Aug 21, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: > Not necessarily since the A in IPA can stand for Association. > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Neal Whitman [nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET] > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:47 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Sorting the IPA alphabet > > I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" has a new (to me, at least) member. > > Neal > > On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin >> alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 21 20:02:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:02:42 -0400 Subject: IPA[lphabet] alphabet In-Reply-To: <8B217194D8467B41983FB1D628DE01D55C86242CF7@UM-EMAIL02.um.u msystem.edu> Message-ID: Not much different from "MLB Baseball" and "MLS Soccer", which moi has complained about here. :-) But thanks for the save, Matthew. Joel At 8/21/2011 03:54 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote: >Not necessarily since the A in IPA can stand for Association. >________________________________________ >From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of >Neal Whitman [nwhitman at AMERITECH.NET] >Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:47 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: Sorting the IPA alphabet > >I see that the class that includes "{P/V}IN number" and "HPV virus" >has a new (to me, at least) member. > >Neal > >On Aug 21, 2011, at 11:16 AM, "Joel S. Berson" wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > > Subject: Sorting the IPA alphabet > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Does the IPA alphabet have a defined sort order, as the Latin > > alphabet does? Can I find its definition somewhere? > > > > Joel > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 20:10:21 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:10:21 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > The article's too brief to be of real interest, but, WTF? > > http://goo.gl/uZIgu > > -- > -Wilson > ?? I was thinking at first that it might refer to a place festooned with growlers, which constitute a new old tradition of their own, as we may or may not have discussed here a while back: cf. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/27/dining/27growl.html. This time through the article, I was struck by what to me is a marginal use of the personal dative?not in Ms. Thorpe's attitude toward football, but toward Coors Light: ?Good beer makes everything more special,? Ms. Thorpe said while stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. ?I like me some football, but I don?t like me some Coors Light. So I?m ensuring I will be happy this afternoon.? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 20:52:31 2011 From: martin.kaminer at GMAIL.COM (Martin Kaminer) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:52:31 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: <201108211959.p7LBCUBR012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The article clearly shows the true cost of removing these words from the dictionary: the first two links in the second paragraph lead nowhere because . .. Growlery is misspelled! On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The article's too brief to be of real interest, but, WTF? > > http://goo.gl/uZIgu > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 21:38:14 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:38:14 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: <201108212010.p7LBCUCB012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while > stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I > like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So I'm > ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. > "_some_"?!!! Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing "Can't _nobody_ ?" into "Can't _anybody_ ?" produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. And who knows exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double negative in order to make everything cool. And it's probably only my personal background that makes the use of _some_ in place of _no_ in this structure feel like a harbinger of the end of the English language as we know it. Well, given that language probably mutates even more quickly than the influenza virus, I'm probably indeed seeing a harbinger of the end of the (standard American-)English language as _I_ know it! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 22:31:16 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:31:16 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <200807020305.m61I2wdG002955@malibu.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: > But in general, > when quoting a lyric, even if you're not *exactly* sure what it is, should > you trust your ear, or go with an online source many other people apparently > agree upon? i say, "Go with your ear." That way, you don't make mistakes like citing "I've got to keep to the highway" as the opening line of the blues classic, [I Got the] Key to the Highway. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 23:17:43 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 19:17:43 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Marc Velasco wrote: >> But in general, >> when quoting a lyric, even if you're not *exactly* sure what it is, should >> you trust your ear, or go with an online source many other people apparently >> agree upon? > > i say, "Go with your ear." > > That way, you don't make mistakes like citing > > "I've got to keep to the highway" > > as the opening line of the blues classic, > > [I Got the] Key to the Highway. > Showing an ignorance not only of Little Walter and Big Bill Broonzy but of Eric (a.k.a. Derek) Clapton, not to mention Arlo Guthrie. Seems it was written and first recorded by William Charles Segar in 1940, who I'd never heard of, but at least I did know it was "Key" (or "Keys") and not "Keep". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From lethe9 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 21 23:32:27 2011 From: lethe9 at GMAIL.COM (Darla Wells) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:32:27 -0500 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108212232.p7LBCUEL012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: We were just arguing this on Facebook: I always hear that line in Electric Light Orchestra's Blinded by the Light as "wrapped up like a douche, another runner in the night" but was informed that it was "like a deuce" talking about auto racing... Darla Wells 2011/8/21 Wilson Gray > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Marc Velasco > wrote: > > But in general, > > when quoting a lyric, even if you're not *exactly* sure what it is, > should > > you trust your ear, or go with an online source many other people > apparently > > agree upon? > > i say, "Go with your ear." > > That way, you don't make mistakes like citing > > "I've got to keep to the highway" > > as the opening line of the blues classic, > > [I Got the] Key to the Highway. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning. -Catherine Aird ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 21 23:49:55 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 19:49:55 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while >> stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I >> like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So I'm >> ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. >> > > "_some_"?!!! > > Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing > > "Can't _nobody_ ?" > > into > > "Can't _anybody_ ?" > > produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. Well, it will produce a perfectly acceptable but different non-standard prescriptivist-no-doubt-upsetting string. There are papers describing this non-concordial "negative declarative inversion" in white Alabama and west Texas speech, and it probably pops up elsewhere. According to what I've read (this is also discussed under Negative Inversion at the Yale Grammatical Diversity site mentioned earlier: http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/negative-inversion), African American English speakers tend to insist on negative concord when inverting, even if they vary concord use in other constructions. > And who knows > exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the > impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double > negative in order to make everything cool. I'd attribute it to a side-effect of the "I love me some X" snowclone that's been running rampant among otherwise non-native personal dative speakers since Toni Braxton's hit recording of "I Love Me Some Him". So the "some" (which may or may not contribute any meaning in such cases) is preserved even under negation rather than switching to "no" (or "any"). In fact, negative occurrences of PDs are somewhat rare when they're not immediately primed as above ("I like me some X, but I don't like/hate me some/any/no Y"). I did the comparison counts on these for a paper awhile back and the contrasts are dramatic. > And it's probably only my > personal background that makes the use of _some_ in place of _no_ in > this structure feel like a harbinger of the end of the English > language as we know it. Well, it's certainly a sign of weakening constraints on the established dialect construction in question. I don't think that's the case with "Can't anybody please him". LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 00:03:03 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:03:03 -0400 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) Message-ID: OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so indecent. Likewise in an earlier appearance: 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 87: Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally bayonet every f--t-r of you. Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 00:32:52 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:32:52 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" Message-ID: Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 190: Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek music, to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 22 00:51:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:51:56 -0400 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so > indecent. > > Likewise in an earlier appearance: > > 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 87: > Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally > bayonet every f--t-r of you. > > Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. > If we don't count "John le Fucker" from the 13th c. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 01:46:21 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 21:46:21 -0400 Subject: Idiom: crawl back into the woodwork (antedating OED to 1933 August; Dorothy Parker) Message-ID: The OED (2nd edition) contains the phrase(s) listed below under the noun woodwork: d. Phr. to come or crawl out of the woodwork and varr., to come out of hiding; to emerge from obscurity. So to crawl (back) into the woodwork and varr., to disappear The first citation is dated 1964. The phrase is also listed in the Oxford Dictionary of English Idioms without a dated cite. Below is an example attributed to Dorothy Parker in 1933 in Cosmopolitan. The words also appeared in Alexander Woollcott's famous profile of Parker in 1934. The Reader's Digest gave the phrase wide circulation by quoting Parker in 1934. Cite: 1933 August, Hearst?s International-Cosmopolitan, [Hearst's International combined with Cosmopolitan], ?Our Mrs. Parker? by Alexander Woollcott, Page 90, Column 1, International Magazine Co., New York. (Verified with photocopies; Great thanks to the helpful librarians) The other guests were all of the kind who wear soiled batik and bathe infrequently, if ever. I could not help wondering how Nellie managed to round them up, and where they might be found at other times. Mrs. Parker looked at them pensively. "I think," she whispered, "that they crawl back into the woodwork." Here is the citation for Woollcott's collection of short pieces that was published the next year. Cite: 1934, While Rome Burns by Alexander Woollcott, Chapter ?Some Neighbors: IV: Our Mrs. Parker?, Pages 149-150, Viking Press, New York. (Verified on paper) Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From tarheel at MYVISCOM.COM Mon Aug 22 02:39:34 2011 From: tarheel at MYVISCOM.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 21:39:34 -0500 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) In-Reply-To: <201108220003.p7LB70Eo006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Growing up in south Louisiana I used (still do)several forms of the French verb Foutre...my parents used it and everyone else did. Also used it as an adjective. We always thought it meant "doomed" . But I can see how it can mean the word "f_cked" . "Fouter de monde "meant someone who made sport of others. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so > indecent. > > Likewise in an earlier appearance: > > 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) > 87: > Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally > bayonet every f--t-r of you. > > Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. > > JL > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bbdjuraev at YAHOO.COM Mon Aug 22 03:08:13 2011 From: bbdjuraev at YAHOO.COM (Botir Djuraev) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:08:13 -0700 Subject: Uzbek Language In-Reply-To: <201108220240.p7LB70LQ006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Hi, guys, Do you know any available job position for Uzbek Language Instructor? I appreciate all of you for your attention. Sincerely yours, Botir Djuraev e-mail address: bbdjuraev at yahoo.com From: Janis Vizier Nihart To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:39 PM Subject: Re: fouter, n. (antedating) ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- Sender:? ? ? American Dialect Society Poster:? ? ? Janis Vizier Nihart Subject:? ? ? Re: fouter, n. (antedating) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Growing up in south Louisiana I used (still do)several forms of the French verb Foutre...my parents used it and everyone else did. Also used it as an adjective.? We always thought it meant "doomed" .? But I can see how it can mean the word "f_cked" . "Fouter de monde "meant someone who made sport of others. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Lighter" To: Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) > ---------------------- Information from the mail > header ----------------------- > Sender:? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster:? ? ? Jonathan Lighter > Subject:? ? ? fouter, n. (antedating) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > OED's primary ex., from 1794, is spelled "f-t-r" because the word was so > indecent. > > Likewise in an earlier appearance: > > 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) > 87: > Why G-- strike me dead if I would not very naturally > bayonet every f--t-r of you. > > Cf., of course, "fucker," not attested till a century later. > > JL > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Mon Aug 22 03:01:05 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 23:01:05 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108212332.p7LAsW3o003166@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Darla Wells wrote: > > We were just arguing this on Facebook: I always hear that line in Electric > Light Orchestra's Blinded by the Light as "wrapped up like a douche, another > runner in the night" but was informed that it was "like a deuce" talking > about auto racing... Manfred Mann's Earth Band covering Bruce Springsteen, actually. As per Wikipedia, "Springsteen himself has joked about the [mondegreen] controversy, claiming that it was not until Manfred Mann rewrote the song to be about a 'feminine hygiene product' that it became popular." --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 06:44:11 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 02:44:11 -0400 Subject: fouter, n. (antedating) In-Reply-To: <201108220052.p7LB70G2006484@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > If we don't count "John le Fucker" from the 13th c. We don't count that. I've already tried it. It was not well received.:-( -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 07:22:45 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 03:22:45 -0400 Subject: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" In-Reply-To: <201108212350.p7LBCUFV012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's just more knowing the words, but not the music. On a liberal - well, the only kind that I bother to watch, actually; the Jerry Springer Show is probably the most conservative: e.g., Springer regularly mocks funny-to-him class-bound and regional speech patterns - TV show, someone white casually remarked that, modulo cruel fate, "Tupac would still be _tapping that ass_." Historic-sociolinguistically speaking, _fuck_ is a euphemism for _tap (that) ass_, if anything, and not the other way around. I steady be tripping behind that shit. It's like hearing Barbara Bush slice the cheddar in church. The speaker could have said, "??? tearing those some drawers," with the same meaning. It would have been equally as pswaydo-hip, but it wouldn't have been obscene, merely vulgar in a laughably-lame way.. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Laurence Horn > Subject: ? ? ? Re: "Save Growlery! The Social Networks Built of Old Words" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn = > wrote: >>> Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while >>> stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I >>> like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So = > I'm >>> ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. >>>=20 >>=20 >> "_some_"?!!! >>=20 >> Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing >>=20 >> "Can't _nobody_ =85" >>=20 >> into >>=20 >> "Can't _anybody_ =85" >>=20 >> produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. > > Well, it will produce a perfectly acceptable but different non-standard = > prescriptivist-no-doubt-upsetting string. ? There are papers describing = > this non-concordial "negative declarative inversion" in white Alabama = > and west Texas speech, and it probably pops up elsewhere. ? According to = > what I've read (this is also discussed under Negative Inversion at the = > Yale Grammatical Diversity site mentioned earlier: ? = > http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/negative-inversion), African American = > English speakers tend to insist on negative concord when inverting, even = > if they vary concord use in other constructions. =20 > > >> And who knows >> exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the >> impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double >> negative in order to make everything cool. > > I'd attribute it to a side-effect of the "I love me some X" snowclone = > that's been running rampant among otherwise non-native personal dative = > speakers since Toni Braxton's hit recording of "I Love Me Some Him". ? So = > the "some" (which may or may not contribute any meaning in such cases) = > is preserved even under negation rather than switching to "no" (or = > "any"). ? In fact, negative occurrences of PDs are somewhat rare when = > they're not immediately primed as above ("I like me some X, but I don't = > like/hate me some/any/no Y"). ? I did the comparison counts on these for = > a paper awhile back and the contrasts are dramatic. =20 > >> And it's probably only my >> personal background that makes the use of _some_ in place of _no_ in >> this structure feel like a harbinger of the end of the English >> language as we know it. > > Well, it's certainly a sign of weakening constraints on the established = > dialect construction in question. ? I don't think that's the case with = > "Can't anybody please him". ? =20 > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Mon Aug 22 13:42:50 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:42:50 +0000 Subject: "love it or leave it" In-Reply-To: <201108200115.p7JHmeeA017687@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Love it or leave it. 1901 D. A. Knuppenburg, "Qualifications Essential to Be the Successful Farmer," _Seventh Annual Report of the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture_, Part 1, 660: "To be successful, I say, he must first, love his occupation . . . . So, on this point, I would say, love it, or leave it." 1905-1906 Elizabeth B. Andrews, "Farming as an Art," _Farmer?s Institutes_ (Commonwealth of Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture Bulletin no. 161) 10: "An old farmer put into five short words such advice as this: 'Love it or leave it.' Perhaps you say this is a text for a forcible sermon for people in all professions and callings." More recently, the proverb usually occurs as a jingoistic slogan. 1921 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 2 Aug.: "William Valle, congressman from the First Colorado district, a member of the house immigration committee, said his message to aliens in this country was: "Love it or leave it.'" --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Laurence Horn [laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 9:14 PM On Aug 19, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > I see that Russell Baker reported the existence of an "America! Love It or > Leave It!" bumper sticker in NYT on Oct. 1, 1968. He thought it a novelty. > > That's after the riot and (heh-heh) almost 1969. > Well, yes, but if it was showing up in greater New York in October, think how much earlier it was showing up in the real America!! LH > > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Dan Goncharoff >> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I believe the American Legion had been a major force in popularizing >> the phrase in 1941, and continued to promote its use in the decades to >> follow, including in the early to mid-60s in support of troops in >> Vietnam. >> >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: Re: "love it or leave it" >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 2:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> >>>> You're right about the short form, Wilson. >>>> >>>> I'm only showing that the phrase existed long before VN, FWIW, IYKWIM. >> YBQ >>>> (that's four in a row) recommends a look at earlier but far less similar >>>> words from Dorothy Parker & Gus Kahn. >>>> >>>> Also FWIW, my recollection is that "America: Love it or Leave it" came >> on >>>> the national scene only as late as 1969. It was the same year that >>>> conservatives hijacked the American flag for their exclusive >> bumper-sticker >>>> use. >>> >>> I'd have guessed 1968, at least by the time of the Chicago Democratic >> Convention in August and the backlash against opponents of the war that >> crystallized with the widely supported "police riot" against protestors >> there. >>> >>> LH >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Aug 22 16:08:04 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:08:04 -0400 Subject: confirming "JL's Law" Message-ID: JL's Law is that it is a waste of time to look in 19th C porn for dirty words. This is exemplified by "The Amorous Intrigues and Adventures of Aaron Burr", published in 1861, and available widely in libraries in series 2 of "Wright's American Fiction"; also available on line. I was reading vol. 2 of Lyle Wright's bibliography of 19th C American novels a while ago -- no comments, please -- when I came upon this title; Wright rarely editorializes, but permitted himself a note calling it a "scabrous" book. My sort of reading material, in short, next to a good bibliography. I skimmed the copy that's on line, not having access to the microfilm here. Nary a dirty word did I find, nor anything else of much interest. The protagonist's conquests all met with danged little resistence -- as Caesar might have put it, Vidi, Vinci, Veni. If there are any of you curious about what 19th C America knew about fancy fucking, and when did they know it, in one adventure, maybe a third through the book, it is pretty clear that Burr goes down on the lassie. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 18:30:19 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:30:19 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108212317.p7LBCUEx012700@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > William Charles Segar in 1940 That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? And who knew that the song was so recent? Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the error. As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too trivial to be worth citing. Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ ?," are they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 19:20:05 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:20:05 -0400 Subject: "=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A6_?=at a future time-point." Message-ID: What's wrong with a simple "later"? OTOH, it is shorter than "? at a future point in time." -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 22 19:49:32 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:49:32 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> William Charles Segar in 1940 > > That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? > > And who knew that the song was so recent? > > Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words > to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and > from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the > error. And while their versions all have something like the following for the second and fourth lines of the opening verse, I got the key to the highway, Billed out and bound to go. I'm gonna leave here running; Walking is most too slow. B. B. King's apparently (if the web can be trusted) has "Feel I got to go" and "Walking is both too slow" respectively. I suspect the latter is a mishearing, but?youneverknow. ("most too slow" is pretty interesting as it is). LH > > As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the > mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different > from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too > trivial to be worth citing. > > Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 22 23:06:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:06:46 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Not in the OED? As often with 18th century dates, I look in EAI. I will need some time to analyze an 1802 article, but here's an example from 1807 where the meaning appears to be "gossip": Spirit of the Press [Philadelphia]; Date: 11-01-1807; Volume: I; Issue: 30; Page: [3]; 2nd col. of article, near the end: "The officers sometimes invite you to the ward-room, and you have a good deal of cheek music together. I wish you would let me know what's stirring among them as soon as you can." Letter Introduced as "Union at sea, November 7, 1807" To Richard Folwell, boatswains's mate, Ship Union; signed Henry Hawser. [A bit inconsistent? Were they both aboard the Union?] The letter starts: "Holloa, Dick, what cheer fore and aft? Does the weather look squally?" Perhaps the letter was sent from one part of the ship to another? Or perhaps it is invented. Joel At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. > >1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 190: >Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek music, >to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 22 23:15:05 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:15:05 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108221831.p7MHt3kO028266@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Brownie Mcghee sang extra verses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xnOhXIpHg Of course, he could probably sing them all day long. Eric On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > William Charles Segar in 1940 > > That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? > > And who knew that the song was so recent? > > Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words > to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and > from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the > error. > > As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the > mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different > from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too > trivial to be worth citing. > > Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. > > There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." > > When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ ?," are > they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that > one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 22 23:50:48 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:50:48 -0700 Subject: Atari (1908) Message-ID: Not in the OED. On Google, "atari" gets 58.8 million raw Googits, many of those are for the company name or for its products. I do not see it being used metaphorically, though its widespread use for the game of go may merit listing in the dictionary. 1. 1908 description "The game of go: the national game of Japan," Arthur Smith, Moffat, Yard & company, page 44 (http://ow.ly/69WSw) ----- It is a rule of the game to give warning when a stone or group of stones is about to be completely surrounded. For this purpose the Japanese use the word "Atari" (from "ataru," to touch lightly), which corresponds quite closely to the expression "gardez" in Chess. ----- 2. 2009 Other than books on go (where citations start becoming common in the 1970s), the only citation I find for "atari" in Google Books is a novel where go is being played. "Everything Under the Sky," by Matilde Asensi, Harper Collins, page 123 (http://ow.ly/69Xms) The "24" is a footnote reference. ----- "In _atari_,24 in check..." Paddy Tichborne tried unsuccessfully to explain. "When the next move threatens to capture stones that are surrounded everywhere but the spot that's about to be taken--" ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 00:27:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:27:22 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: <201108222306.p7MHt3Gq028266@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Nope, not in OED. "Chin music" not attested till 1834. JL On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "cheek music" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Not in the OED? > > As often with 18th century dates, I look in EAI. I will need some > time to analyze an 1802 article, but here's an example from 1807 > where the meaning appears to be "gossip": > > Spirit of the Press [Philadelphia]; Date: 11-01-1807; Volume: I; > Issue: 30; Page: [3]; 2nd col. of article, near the end: > > "The officers sometimes invite you to the ward-room, and you have a > good deal of cheek music together. I wish you would let me know > what's stirring among them as soon as you can." > > Letter Introduced as "Union at sea, November 7, 1807" To Richard > Folwell, boatswains's mate, Ship Union; signed Henry Hawser. [A bit > inconsistent? Were they both aboard the Union?] The letter starts: > > "Holloa, Dick, what cheer fore and aft? Does the weather look squally?" > > Perhaps the letter was sent from one part of the ship to another? Or > perhaps it is invented. > > Joel > > At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. > > > >1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) > 190: > >Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek > music, > >to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 00:37:58 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:37:58 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 7:15 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Brownie Mcghee sang extra verses: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xnOhXIpHg > > Of course, he could probably sing them all day long. > > Eric > > Wow, thanks for that link! I saw Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee a couple of times in my undergraduate days at the U. of Rochester?a memorable experience. This is a wonderful take on "Key". LH > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> William Charles Segar in 1940 >> >> That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? >> >> And who knew that the song was so recent? >> >> Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words >> to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and >> from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the >> error. >> >> As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the >> mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different >> from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too >> trivial to be worth citing. >> >> Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. >> >> There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." >> >> When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ ?," are >> they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that >> one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 00:46:19 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:46:19 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 8:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Nope, not in OED. "Chin music" not attested till 1834. > > JL And all of them for a sense with which I'm unfamiliar ("talk, chatter", chiefly U.S.). No record of the only sense I do know, as a term of baseball art = 'beanball' (thrown under the chin of the batter, give or take). Is the original sense still extant? LH > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Joel S. Berson" >> Subject: Re: "cheek music" >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Not in the OED? >> >> As often with 18th century dates, I look in EAI. I will need some >> time to analyze an 1802 article, but here's an example from 1807 >> where the meaning appears to be "gossip": >> >> Spirit of the Press [Philadelphia]; Date: 11-01-1807; Volume: I; >> Issue: 30; Page: [3]; 2nd col. of article, near the end: >> >> "The officers sometimes invite you to the ward-room, and you have a >> good deal of cheek music together. I wish you would let me know >> what's stirring among them as soon as you can." >> >> Letter Introduced as "Union at sea, November 7, 1807" To Richard >> Folwell, boatswains's mate, Ship Union; signed Henry Hawser. [A bit >> inconsistent? Were they both aboard the Union?] The letter starts: >> >> "Holloa, Dick, what cheer fore and aft? Does the weather look squally?" >> >> Perhaps the letter was sent from one part of the ship to another? Or >> perhaps it is invented. >> >> Joel >> >> At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. >>> >>> 1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) >> 190: >>> Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek >> music, >>> to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 01:01:28 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:01:28 -0400 Subject: "cheek music" In-Reply-To: <345FB2A7-211A-4875-A0CA-785A4023E5A0@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/22/2011 08:46 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >And all of them for a sense with which I'm unfamiliar ("talk, >chatter", chiefly U.S.). No record of the only sense I do know, as >a term of baseball art = 'beanball' (thrown under the chin of the >batter, give or take). Is the original sense still extant? "Chin music" for "chatter" I believe I've heard or read -- but not "cheek music". But I can suggest another baseball context -- when Derek Jeeter's 3000th career hit is on a day when he goes 5 for 5, and he is shown preparing for each at bat with his usual ritual, including penultimatey extending his right arm towards the plate umpire asking for time for the last placement into position of his feet -- but invariably followed, as the last act of this ritual, by puffing out his right cheek with his tongue. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 01:06:59 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:06:59 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Another instance I was led to from EAI, also slightly later than Jon's, but in an article with a few expressions that caught my eye. Starting with the Daily Advertiser [New York, N.Y.]; Date: 09-20-1802; Volume: XVIII; Issue: 5490; Page: [3], a quotation for "gill glass" is attributed to 1799 in Spirit of Public Jrnls. (1800) III. 349 and the phrase ""dim her daylights" Google Books tells me is in the same journal. ----- In the Daily Advertiser, the article is introduced by: From a London Paper. THE FASHIONABLE WORLD. From the King on the throne, to the Beggar on the dunghill, PACIFIC FETES have, in England, been the general order of the day. [Pacific fetes = ?; probably ironic considering the disorderliness of this one] ... Of the various descriptions of these FASHIONABLE FOLLIES which have been republished in this side of the HERRING POND, few, we presume, will be considered more interesting or more entertaining to the reader of taste and delicacy, than the following exquisite delineation of MRS. SWIPE'S ROUT IN RAM ALLEY. [Herring Pond = North Atlantic Ocean, from 1686 (John Dunton); interdates 1729 (John Gay)--1824] ----- In "The Spirit of the Public Journals for 1799. Being an Impartial Section of the Most Exquisite Essays and Jeux d'Esprits, Principally Prose, that Appear in the Newspapers and other Publications. With Explanatory Notes." Vol. III. London: Printed for James Ridgway, 1800. "Imitations ! Imitations ! ! Fashionable Imitations * ! ! ! / Mrs. Swipe's Rout, in Ram Alley. / [From the Morning Herald.]" Pages 348--350. Google Books, full view. http://tinyurl.com/3wk8kzo [Considering this particular article, I can't help wondering about "spirit" and "Jeux d'Esprits" in the title.] What caught my eye are: 348, 349 -- "rout" = "gathering", but with added association of "disreputable". 349 -- [The hostess's] face ... was fired with labour ... wherever we turned our eyes, she still presented herself with a bottle of gin in her right hand, and a gill glass in her left. ["fired with labour" = with liquor?] 349 -- Her daughter ... seemed to vie with her mother ... by carrying hot purl to every quarter of the rooms. [purl n.3 interdates a1764--1843] 349 -- About eleven, Miss Slang [I thereupon hoped some would follow!] was earnestly entreated to charm the company with the much admired _cantata_ of _"Come tip us a glass of true blue."_ [true blue = ? here?] 349 -- To those who know the affability, the readiness to oblige, and the condescension of this young Lady, it will be needless to observe how cheerfully she complied. She was accompanied by the two Master Tripes, one on the marrow bone and cleaver, and the other on the Jew's harp; she was, it must be confessed, in full song, a fine compass of voice, great light and shade, and a most enchanting _portamento_. [A pun on "carriage"? Something tells me that during my adolescence I learned on the dirty streets or in the dirty books "portamento" = "bosom"? Not in the OED in that sense.] 349--250 -- ... a person ... who is supposed to have intruded himself under the function of a forged ticket, abruptly exclaimed "D--n all this cheek music, let us have a little jaw work of another sort; where are the hot mutton-pies that mother Swipes promised? [cheek music = a reference to the Jew's harp music? Or more generally, too much talk and not enough food and drink?] [mutton-pies = I won't venture; although later they seem to be innocent, accompanying the gin and purl.] 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim her daylights."_ ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to run riot", from 1750--.] ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] 350 -- ... Miss Dunston, who, squaring her elbows, asked Miss Slammerkin "what she was for?"---"A ring, a ring!" was instantly vociferated from every quarter of the room ... ["what she was for?" = "what the H--l do you thing you're doing"? When did this expression arise?] ["A ring" = presumably a space for fisticuffs.] 359 -- About three in the morning, the assembly began to separate; carts were provided for those who could not walk, the riders in which, falling to blows soon after their quitting the rooms, were seized by the watch, and all safely lodged in Tothillfields Bridewell. Joel At 8/21/2011 08:32 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >Means "whistling," but cf. later "chin music," yakking. > >1787 _The Adventures of Jonathan Corncob_ (London: ptd. for the author) 190: >Does it not blow hard enough without your giving us your d----d cheek music, >to bring on a squall, and be d----d to you." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 01:17:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:17:02 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 7:15 PM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Brownie Mcghee sang extra verses: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_xnOhXIpHg > > Of course, he could probably sing them all day long. > > Eric > > At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 2:30 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Wilson Gray >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Laurence Horn >> wrote: >>> William Charles Segar in 1940 >> >> That's the guy who drew "Popeye," right? >> >> And who knew that the song was so recent? >> >> Are the words to the Broonzy version those that Segar wrote? The words >> to the Walter and the Derek versions differ both from Broonzy and >> from each other. And Walter sings "I've" and not "I"." I regret the >> error. >> >> As it happens, I've actually heard only Walter's version and the >> mistitled "Keep" version. It has, needless to say, words different >> from those of all other versions. IMO, the differences are all too >> trivial to be worth citing. >> >> Sadly, only the version attributed to Broonzy mentions Texas in its lyrics. >> >> There's a song entitled "T-99" that's also found as "Tee-Nah-Nah." >> >> When The Stones substutue "_hurt_ my nose open," for "_had_ ?," are >> they using a more-familiar-to-them idiom? Or did they just fuck that >> one up, as they did with the Texas Afro-Rockabilly hit, "Linda Lu"? >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 02:02:30 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:02:30 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: <201108230107.p7MHt3SE028266@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock the living daylights out of somebody. DanG On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, > stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be > running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim > her daylights."_ > ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery > of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to > run riot", from 1750--.] > ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression > arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none > with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, > and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 02:42:23 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:42:23 -0400 Subject: a bit more on the Coors Light example... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 21, 2011, at 7:49 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > On Aug 21, 2011, at 5:38 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> Good beer makes everything more special, Ms. Thorpe said while >>> stocking up for a recent National Football League playoff game. I >>> like me some football, but I _don't like me *some* Coors Light_. So I'm >>> ensuring I will be happy this afternoon. >>> >> >> "_some_"?!!! >> >> Well, I myself was once fully persuaded that simply changing >> >> "Can't _nobody_ ?" >> >> into >> >> "Can't _anybody_ ?" >> >> produced a standard, prescriptivist-pleasing string. > > Well, it will produce a perfectly acceptable but different non-standard prescriptivist-no-doubt-upsetting string. There are papers describing this non-concordial "negative declarative inversion" in white Alabama and west Texas speech, and it probably pops up elsewhere. According to what I've read (this is also discussed under Negative Inversion at the Yale Grammatical Diversity site mentioned earlier: http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/negative-inversion), African American English speakers tend to insist on negative concord when inverting, even if they vary concord use in other constructions. > > >> And who knows >> exactly what was in the speaker's mind? Maybe she *was* under the >> impression that all that was needed was the elimination of the double >> negative in order to make everything cool. > > I'd attribute it to a side-effect of the "I love me some X" snowclone that's been running rampant among otherwise non-native personal dative speakers since Toni Braxton's hit recording of "I Love Me Some Him". So the "some" (which may or may not contribute any meaning in such cases) is preserved even under negation rather than switching to "no" (or "any"). In fact, negative occurrences of PDs are somewhat rare when they're not immediately primed as above ("I like me some X, but I don't like/hate me some/any/no Y"). I did the comparison counts on these for a paper awhile back and the contrasts are dramatic. To this, Kurt Queller of the U. of Idaho, a non-ads-l subscriber but fellow PD aficionado, appends the following remarks, which tend to support Wilson's intuitions: ================== Even granting the syntactic / contextual priming of the negative, though, they seem somewhat "snowclone-ish," don't they? For one thing, note how they carry over from the antecedent (positive) phrase the positive polarity item "some" -- which hardly seems vernacular. (Where standard would ordinarily opt for the negative-polarity "?any?," vernacular should normally go for the negative-polarity "?no?".) Out of curiosity, I just did a quick g-search on "I don't like me no". Out of some 54,400,000 hits, there looked to be lots of false positives, but of the first six or so true positives, only one was of this contrastive "I like me some X, but I don't like me no Y" type (and it's clearly a tongue-in-cheek dagnabbit: "?I don't like me no bad grammar"). Three of them, however, seem to instantiate a very specific discourse routine, which would seem (whether actually produced by deep vernacular speakers or not) to have a fair likelihood of reflecting real vernacular competence: "I Love My Fat Husband" Ed is gaining the weight back and I am happy about that! I do not like me no skinny mens. [From a thread on SNAKES] http://www.wmi.org/multi_boards/other_topics/message.html?message_id=330830: I'm only scared of 3 kinds from lukinupinbama #15447 3/11/2011 5:29:18 PM of snakes: 1.live ones 2.dead ones 3.sticks that look like snakes I will give them my boat, truck or whatever and immediately EVACUATE. Ran up on a cotty-moccasin in creek last year and emptied my Glock on him 15 times, in muddy water. Then sat there on my ATV in the muddy water for 10 minutes, afraid to move. Was out of ammo or would have fired until I ran out, even if it was 100 rounds! No sir, Cuz, I don't like me no snakes. "?And by the way boy, I got me certain rules on this here bus! And I aim to enforce them! Now listen here! ?First rule: no interruptions while I?m a talkin?. Second rule: don?t ya ever go a sassin!? I don?t like me no sassin or smart mouthin, no-sir-ree! If you?re a smart mouther, you?re on the wrong bus! Causin? if ya do any goin? off at the mouth, I might have a mind to let ya?ll out in the middle of nowhere! ?Third rule: no cussin?. Ya got that straight, boy?" http://www.appsondroid.com/chapter16.htm In each of these three cases, the negative PD seems to function as an affectively laden COMMENT on a preceding assertion, in effect EXPLAINING what was just said with reference to the speaker's bottom-line character (the way s/he simply IS). -- The essential pattern seems to be: [ { P } . Coz, { Q } . ] ... where 'P' is one or more clauses vividly rendering (a) something that happened, or (b) an adjuration to the hearer, and 'Q' is the construction 'I don't like me no X (no, sir-ree).' Only the 2nd of the above 3 examples has an explicit logical connective 'coz', but the same sort of explanatory relation seems implicit in the 1st and 3rd examples as well. In each case, the explanation offered is in the nature of a "that's just the way I am, and you might as well not be trying to talk me out of it" sort of statement. (Note also the collocational preference for "no, sir(ree)!") Ms. Thorpe's ""I like me some X, but I don?t like me some Y" pattern is clearly also quite well attested out there on 'teh interwebs' -- as you have shown, Larry! -- but it still smells quite snowclonish (to me, at least). In view of the above, I suspect that a more authentic usage, with respect to drinking beer while watching football, would look something like this: "?And if you're fixing to bring some beer for the playoffs, don't be bringing none of that watery horsepiss, hear? (Coz) I don't like me no Coors Lite. (No sir-ree)." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 04:11:25 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 00:11:25 -0400 Subject: as ... than ... Message-ID: Is this standard usage? [Tea Party] supporters were twice as likely than others to favor a > constitutional amendment banning flag burning... I see this once in a while and it always makes me shudder. But I am hesitant to say it's "wrong". VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 11:00:03 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:00:03 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108230117.p7N02ObD017117@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here's the Charles Segar version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFjdHZgElw Very interesting: Segar's is a twelve bar blues. All the other versions (that I am familiar with) are eight bar blues. In fact, "Key to the Highway" is often given as an example of the eight bar form. Eric On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 = > seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with = > Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the = > 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. =20 > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Tue Aug 23 13:53:29 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 06:53:29 -0700 Subject: as ... than ... In-Reply-To: <201108230425.p7N3fXM3007102@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 22, 2011, at 9:11 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: as ... than ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Is this standard usage? > > [Tea Party] supporters were twice as likely than others to favor a >> constitutional amendment banning flag burning... > > > > I see this once in a while and it always makes me shudder. But I am hesitant > to say it's "wrong". not standard, but certainly (reasonably well) attested. MWDEU p. 893: There are a number of syntactic blends involving than, some of which are separately treated in this book: see as good or better than; hardly ... than; scarcely ... than. ... Harper 1985 mentions a couple of instances of twice as many ... than, which would seem to be compounded of more ... than and twice as many ... as. We have also found the construction with much: ... twice as much office space is being built this year in the suburbs around New York City than in Manhattan ? N.Y. Times, 27 July 1985 ..... some exx from Google web search on {?twice as likely? than} 4/25/07: An Australian study shows that men who sit at their desks more than six hours a day are nearly twice as likely to be overweight than those who sit for less ... www.webmd.com/diet/news/20050719/more-you-sit-at-work-more-you-weigh Individuals with Genetic Conditions Twice as Likely to Report Denial of Health Insurance than Individuals with Other Chronic Illness. www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2007/kass_genetic_testing.html Johns Hopkins study shows that individuals with genetic conditions are twice as likely to report having been denied health insurance than individuals with ... www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/jhu-iwg021207.php The study found that children ages 6 to 11 and ages 12 to 17 who were obese were more than twice as likely to have diabetes than children of the same age ... www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=77 These all have material intervening between as likely and than. But there are plenty of examples with as likely than, e.g.: ... patients with major depression appear twice as likely than those who are not depressed to die or be re-admitted to the hospital within 12 months. www.scienceblog.com/communityolder/2001/B/200111881.html They are twice as likely than the average adult and more likely than readers of all other quality titles to agree to the statement ?I consider myself ... adinfo-guardian.co.uk/the-observer/obs-reader-profile.shtml Adults abused during childhood are more than twice as likely than those not abused during childhood to have serious substance abuse problems. www.annafoundation.org/wchac-stats.html MONDAY, July 24 (HealthDay News) -- Men with multiple sclerosis (MS) are more than twice as likely than women with the illness to pass it on to their ... www.multiplesclerosis.com/admin/templates/news.aspx?articleid=348&zoneid=50 > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 14:02:19 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:02:19 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside Message-ID: That's what the host of Lifetime's _The Balancing Act_ says when she means "All kidding aside." It obviously "makes sense" if you don't know what "aside" means. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Aug 23 15:19:29 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:19:29 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I suppose the "blue" meant gin -- don't know why. It appears in the expression "blue ruin". "Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her daylights."_ would mean "black her eyes". The hunt was somewhat annoyed by the number of pirates who located themselves upon the runways, and intercepting the course of the river, killed and poached a number nearly equal to that obtained by the sportsmen. One of these lawless intruders, who, probably excited by an over dose of *blue ruin*, was disposed to be troublesome and impertinent, received from one of the drivers of the hunt his pay down, in undepreciated Kentucky currency, producing a total obscurity of his *day-lights* and a most copious effusion of claret. New-York American, November 1, 1822, p. 2, col. 5 (I forget what was being hunted.) blue ruin = HDAS: 1811 (English); 1821, 1833, (US) day-lights = HDAS: 1752 (English); 1833 (US) On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock > the living daylights out of somebody. > DanG > > > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, > > stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be > > running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim > > her daylights."_ > > ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery > > of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to > > run riot", from 1750--.] > > ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression > > arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none > > with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, > > and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 15:44:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:44:56 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2011, at 7:00 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > Here's the Charles Segar version: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFjdHZgElw > > Very interesting: Segar's is a twelve bar blues. All the other > versions (that I am familiar with) are eight bar blues. In fact, "Key to the > Highway" is often given as an example of the eight bar form. > > Eric That is quite different from those of the 200 versions I sampled, including the more prominent ones. I ended up e-plunking down my $0.99 for one of the Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee versions (a very nice 5:12 cut from a "Blues Six-Pack"), EP, which Sonny/Brownie introduce by thanking their friend for writing it?Big Bill Broonzy. I imagine Segar must have ended up feeling a bit like Rodney Dangerfield. LH > > > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 = >> seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with = >> Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the = >> 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. =20 >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:18:31 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:18:31 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/22/2011 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock >the living daylights out of somebody. >DanG But would you be inclined to knock the living *headlights* out of somebody? Daylights are part of human anatomy (or something), and can be called "living"; headlights are part of mechanical anatomy, and can be literally dimmed, via a switch. "I'll dim your headlights" sounds like something sayable today, that I might even have heard sometime; "dim your daylights" not. ("Knock daylight" exists in only two quotations in the OED: 1881 Punch 17 Sept. 124/1 Ready at the call of duty to frame a new programme or knock daylight into an old one. [I don't know whether this means "amend to be useful" or "punch holes in".] 1921 Everybody's Mag. Oct. 145/1 'The old son-of-a-gun has got to the Dutchman and is knocking daylight out of him.' He would go down and get a ring-side view. [This seems rather concrete.] I don't find "knock headlight(s)", and nor did I find "dim daylight(s)/headlight(s).) Joel >On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, > > stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be > > running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim > > her daylights."_ > > ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery > > of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to > > run riot", from 1750--.] > > ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression > > arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none > > with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, > > and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:35:38 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:35:38 -0400 Subject: "true blue", 1800 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/23/2011 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: >I suppose the "blue" meant gin -- don't know why. It appears in the >expression "blue ruin". George writes "blue ruin" dates from 1811. (The OED doesn't say why it means "gin" either.) Might my find from 1800 be a significant early use of "blue" for gin? >"Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her daylights."_ >would mean "black her eyes". Sounds good to me. (I don't suppose the pirates were hunting snipe.) Joel > The hunt was somewhat annoyed by the number of pirates who located >themselves upon the runways, and intercepting the course of the river, >killed and poached a number nearly equal to that obtained by the >sportsmen. One >of these lawless intruders, who, probably excited by an over dose of *blue >ruin*, was disposed to be troublesome and impertinent, received from one of >the drivers of the hunt his pay down, in undepreciated Kentucky currency, >producing a total obscurity of his *day-lights* and a most copious effusion >of claret. > >New-York American, November 1, 1822, p. 2, col. 5 (I forget what was being >hunted.) > > > >blue ruin = HDAS: 1811 (English); 1821, 1833, (US) > >day-lights = HDAS: 1752 (English); 1833 (US) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 16:42:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:42:25 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] Message-ID: floe, right? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 23 16:53:46 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:53:46 -0700 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108231643.p7NAjdN7017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Aren't they talking about the flow of the ice floes? Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 23, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > floe, right? > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:54:19 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:19 -0400 Subject: Boxing slang from 1802, including "darken his daylights" Message-ID: While searching for "dim ... daylights" in EAN (not found), I came across the following, which may (or may not) have some useful slang somewhat related to or arising from boxing: Columbian Minerva [Dedham, Mass.]; Date: 08-10-1802; Volume: VI; Issue: 305; Page: [2]; article titled "A Boxing Match" and about the expressions used. The setting is a bout of fisticuffs in England, probably taken from a British periodical. The occupation and words of each observer are given -- E.g., Watchmaker ("spring at him"); Sailor ("douce his glimms"); Fishmonger ("make him a flounder"); Butcher ("come Ben Boozel over his jaw bone") -- and Glazier ("Darken his daylights"). I see "darken her daylights" is dated to 1752 by the OED, s.v. "daylight", sense 4. "Dim her daylights" from 1800 would add "dim" to "beat, scare, etc., the (living) daylight(s)" and interdate 1752 -- 1821. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 23 16:54:25 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:25 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many relevant hits for "no kidding aside" with the same meaning (even after eliminating the false positives for "No, kidding aside,?" and such). LH On Aug 23, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > That's what the host of Lifetime's _The Balancing Act_ says when she means > "All kidding aside." > > It obviously "makes sense" if you don't know what "aside" means. > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 16:58:16 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:58:16 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: <532CB467-08D7-4094-8361-010000612879@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: At 8/23/2011 12:53 PM, Benjamin Barrett wrote: >Aren't they talking about the flow of the ice floes? Perhaps more likely the flow of ice on the continent itself. (A "first time" mapping of the flow of floes seems somewhat uninteresting -- it would soon be out of date.) Still "flow", however. Joel >Benjamin Barrett >Seattle, WA > >On Aug 23, 2011, at 9:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > floe, right? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:06:43 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:06:43 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _what =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=A6_?=for_ = "why"? Message-ID: Mid-twenty-ish, black female speaker: "What are you scared for?" < "What for are you scared?" wherein _what for_ (eye-dialect _whuffo_, etc.) = "why"? The speaker's phonology was utterly, soullessly, excruciatingly, "standard." Hence, it occurred to me that perhaps the speaker was hypercorrecting. That sentence-final _for_ instead of _of_ strikes me as not quite "right," in view of the phonetics in which the sentence was embedded. Of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:09:12 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:09:12 -0400 Subject: "true blue", 1800 In-Reply-To: <201108231635.p7NFE508006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My guess is that it means gin. Certainly the context supports it, Was it a brand name (hence "blue ruin"?). JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "true blue", 1800 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/23/2011 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: > >I suppose the "blue" meant gin -- don't know why. It appears in the > >expression "blue ruin". > > George writes "blue ruin" dates from 1811. (The OED doesn't say why > it means "gin" either.) Might my find from 1800 be a significant > early use of "blue" for gin? > > >"Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her daylights."_ > >would mean "black her eyes". > > Sounds good to me. > > (I don't suppose the pirates were hunting snipe.) > > Joel > > > The hunt was somewhat annoyed by the number of pirates who located > >themselves upon the runways, and intercepting the course of the river, > >killed and poached a number nearly equal to that obtained by the > >sportsmen. One > >of these lawless intruders, who, probably excited by an over dose of *blue > >ruin*, was disposed to be troublesome and impertinent, received from one > of > >the drivers of the hunt his pay down, in undepreciated Kentucky currency, > >producing a total obscurity of his *day-lights* and a most copious > effusion > >of claret. > > > >New-York American, November 1, 1822, p. 2, col. 5 (I forget what was > being > >hunted.) > > > > > > > >blue ruin = HDAS: 1811 (English); 1821, 1833, (US) > > > >day-lights = HDAS: 1752 (English); 1833 (US) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:25:32 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:25:32 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: <201108231654.p7NAjdO7017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED has the relevant sense of "aside" from 1860 and 1871 only, with the now-surprising query as to whether it is so used only in the U.S. There are no exx. of "(all) kidding aside." The earliest from NewspaperArchive: 1901 _Dubuque Daily Telegraph_ (Aug. 14) (unp.): But all "kidding" aside, the party is out to have a real quiet time. The earliest from GB: 1911 _The American Globe_ III (Jan.) 15: Kidding aside, my father writes me that he likes the suit very much. Roughly contemporaneous cites suggest that it's short for "Laying" or "putting all kidding aside." JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: no laughing aside > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Many relevant hits for "no kidding aside" with the same meaning (even after > eliminating the false positives for "No, kidding aside,?" and such). > > LH > > On Aug 23, 2011, at 10:02 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > > That's what the host of Lifetime's _The Balancing Act_ says when she > means > > "All kidding aside." > > > > It obviously "makes sense" if you don't know what "aside" means. > > > > JL > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:28:27 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:28:27 -0400 Subject: Marie Antoinette never said, "Let them eat cake." Message-ID: ... and six other myths about Marie Antoinette: http://goo.gl/jYWhL VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:28:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:28:03 -0400 Subject: "cheek music", 1800, 1802 In-Reply-To: <201108231519.p7NAjZYm023348@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:19 AM, George Thompson wrote: On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to _knock the living daylights out of_ somebody. I recall that from the very early '40's, as used in an East-Texas grandparental warning WRT, e.g. the real world: "If you don't heed me, you're going to get the living daylights knocked out of you, out yonder!" Otherwise, I'm entirely unfamiliar with the expression. Strange. But, of course, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:31:58 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:31:58 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: <201108231725.p7NFE5E6006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > Roughly-contemporaneous cites suggest that it's short for "laying" or "putting all kidding aside." FWIW, that strikes *me* as precisely the correct intuition. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:34:10 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:34:10 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: <201108231643.p7NFE52U006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: No, I believe, this is correct. The idea that glaciers "flow" is fairly recent--a couple of decades. The pattern of that flow requires detailed mapping over several years--the move fairly quickly, but often in unpredictable directions and often intersecting. Greenland has been studied fairly closely (that's where the "flow" was discovered, I believe). But Antarctica has been more elusive. So the announcement that complete ice "flow" has been mapped is a big deal. A complete map would show a number of "currents". The NASA picture on HuffPo (where I presume Wilson got his reference) shows something more like watershed basins rather than something like ocean currents. VS-) On 8/23/2011 12:42 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > floe, right? > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Aug 23 17:54:25 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:54:25 -0500 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108231619.p7NAjdKD017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Joel S. Berson > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:19 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "dim daylights", 1800 > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: "dim daylights", 1800 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > At 8/22/2011 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock > >the living daylights out of somebody. > >DanG > > But would you be inclined to knock the living *headlights* out of > somebody? Daylights are part of human anatomy (or something), and > can be called "living"; headlights are part of mechanical anatomy, > and can be literally dimmed, via a switch. > But "headlights" can be part of the anatomy, as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlights_(comics) Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 17:59:16 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:59:16 -0400 Subject: no laughing aside In-Reply-To: <201108231732.p7NAjdSl017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And there's this significant antedating of "aside": 1800 Joseph Barretti _A Dictionary Spanish and English and English and Spanish_ (new ed.) (s.v. _Burlar_) (London: For F. Wingrave, et al.): _Dexa'das la bu'rlas_, jesting aside. Am too lazy to go back further. JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: no laughing aside > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > Roughly-contemporaneous cites suggest that it's short for "laying" or > "putting all kidding aside." > > FWIW, that strikes *me* as precisely the correct intuition. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 18:11:34 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:11:34 -0400 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio Message-ID: The Yale Book of Quotations lists this important maxim as a catchphrase of Edgar Bergen's wooden partner Charlie McCarthy. The citation is indirect via the 1984 book "The Other 637 Best Things Anybody Ever Said" by Robert Byrne. This phrase may have been derived from the following script fragment reprinted in "Joe Franklin's Encyclopedia of Comedians": Charlie McCarthy: I can't take this schoolwork any more, it's driving me crazy. Edgar Bergen: Well, Charlie, I'm sorry, but hard work never killed anybody. Charlie: Still, there's no use taking chances. Edgar: You have a test tomorrow, am I right? Charlie: Well, yes, in a way. Edgar: All right, now, I see what brought this on. You're scared you won't pass. Suppose you tell me what you know about the brain. Charlie: It's made from cereal, the silly- belly, and the muddled alligator. Edgar: No, no, that's the cerebrum, cerebellum, and the medulla oblongata! Didn't you read books on the subject? Charlie: To tell you the truth, I didn't read all the books on the subject. Perhaps one book. ? Does any list member have experience tracing old-time radio scripts? I do not know of any script databases. I sent an email to an old time radio expert who compiled an episode guide for The Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy Show to ask if he recognized the episode and broadcast date based in the script fragment. The other interesting match for the phrase that I have found is in Walter Winchell's syndicated column in 1956. Cite: 1956 June 22, Daily Times-News, Walter Winchell of New York, Page 4, Column 3, Burlington, North Carolina. (NewspaperArchive) Florian ZaBach's query: "Hard work never killed anyone, but why take a chance on being the first victim?" (Hoomee?) Garson O'Toole ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 18:17:32 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:17:32 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/23/2011 01:54 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC wrote: >But "headlights" can be part of the anatomy, as well: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headlights_(comics) How could I have forgotten? But do they participate in "knock the living headlights out of you"? Or "I'm going to dim your headlights"? (Only Comstock might have said the latter, as he exercised his true blue, but not gin-eous, pen.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Tue Aug 23 18:18:49 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:18:49 -0800 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [NT] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 23 Aug 2011, at 08:42, Wilson Gray wrote: > floe, right? No, I don't thinks so. They're plotting colour-coded flow speeds. Chris -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 18:38:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:38:38 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 In-Reply-To: <201108231619.p7NFE5tk006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I presume knock/dim/smash/beat/thrash are all equivalent in this context. Sure enough, OED does have it under "daylight" as a /general/ case, without specifying all the verbs: > 4. pl. The eyes. Also in extended use of any vital organ. Also to > beat, scare, etc., the (living) daylight(s) out of (a person), to > beat, scare (a person) severely. slang. The quotations include (some in past tense) "darken" (1752), "shake" (1848), "pull" (1884), "shoot" (1923), "beat" (1944), "scare" (1951), "belt" (1960). It easy to spot "smash" (1832), "crush" (1885), "pound" (1880) and "knock" (1842) with "daylight". Others require a somewhat closer inspection. "He cum mighty nigh knockm' the /daylight out/ o' me last spring." (1866) On the other hand, I disagree somewhat with George Thompson's comment: > "Daylights" was a prizefighters' term for "eyes": _"dim her > daylights."_ would mean "black her eyes". Consider the 1854 "knock" quote (the author appears to be Thomas A. Burke): http://goo.gl/F42J7 The Americans at Home. Ed. by Thomas Chandler Haliburton. Volume I. 1854 XV. The Way Old Bill Went Off. p. 166 > He was Justice of the Peace, held two or three posts of honour, and > could knock daylight out of a turkey's eye two hundred yards with his > favourite gun. Also, http://goo.gl/cUy0e The Family Treasury of Sunday Reading. Ed. by Andrew Cameron. London: 1860 The Redeemer's Tears. p. 34/1 > When any measure of religious thoughtfulness comes on, it takes all > the daylight out of yonr life. http://goo.gl/H6d0n A Fair Maid. Volume 1. By Frederick William Robinson. 1889 p. 117 > He looked after her for an instant, even seemed disposed to call to > her, as though there were further questions he would put to her before > she left him; then he sat down on the seat under the porch, laid bis > sunburnt hands upon his knees, and thought the subject out, and his > pipe out, and, at last, the daylight out; for when he came back to > himself, there were the deepening shadows of the night advancing, and > only a red tint lingering in the sky away to the west of him. If "daylight" was "eye", he would not have needed to "knock daylight out of a turkey's eye". I've also spotted a couple of comments, in passing, that referred to the daylight going out/dimming from someone's eyes because of becoming drunk. It seems "daylight" is closer to consciousness or a euphemism for life, life-force (hence "/living/ daylights"). It's also related to British "to see daylight(s) out of X". Of course, the meaning might have evolved from representing actually seeing daylight, to "projecting" daylight, i.e., awareness, to just euphemistically referring to eyes. But the 18th century quotes certainly don't use "daylight" to mean "eyes". Then, there is this: The History of Jemmy and Jenny Jessamy. Volume 1. By Eliza Fowler Haywood. 1753 p. 218 > Dear sister, I beg you will shew miss Jessamy the letter your ladyship > received since our coming down to Bath ; it is the duty of her friends > to force open her eyes, as she seems obstinate to shut daylight out. This seems to match Joel's quotation almost exactly, except for replacing "dim" with "shut [] out". VS-) On 8/23/2011 12:18 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/22/2011 10:02 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: >> Did it ever change to headlights? I might still get inclined to knock >> the living daylights out of somebody. >> DanG > But would you be inclined to knock the living *headlights* out of > somebody? Daylights are part of human anatomy (or something), and > can be called "living"; headlights are part of mechanical anatomy, > and can be literally dimmed, via a switch. > > "I'll dim your headlights" sounds like something sayable today, that > I might even have heard sometime; "dim your daylights" not. > > ("Knock daylight" exists in only two quotations in the OED: > > 1881 Punch 17 Sept. 124/1 Ready at the call of duty to frame a > new programme or knock daylight into an old one. [I don't know > whether this means "amend to be useful" or "punch holes in".] > > 1921 Everybody's Mag. Oct. 145/1 'The old son-of-a-gun has got > to the Dutchman and is knocking daylight out of him.' He would go > down and get a ring-side view. [This seems rather concrete.] > > I don't find "knock headlight(s)", and nor did I find "dim > daylight(s)/headlight(s).) > > Joel > >> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> 350 -- [A Miss Dunstan tumbles against a Miss Slammerkin] who, >>> stepping back, asked her, in an angry tone, if she had a mind to be >>> running her rigs, telling her, at the same time, that she would _"dim >>> her daylights."_ >>> ["running her rigs" = rig, n.5, P. 1.a. ="To make a fool or mockery >>> of; to ridicule", from 1735--; or P. 2. = "to behave recklessly; to >>> run riot", from 1750--.] >>> ["dim daylights" not in OED? When did this expression >>> arise? (Google Books has only this one source with "her" -- and none >>> with "his"!) When did it mutate to "headlights"? (Also not in OED, >>> and too many of the GBooks hits are literal for me to follow that up.)] >> ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 23 18:48:58 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:48:58 -0400 Subject: "dim daylights", 1800 In-Reply-To: <4E53F3AE.2040409@gmail.com> Message-ID: That should have been 1886, not 1889. VS-) On 8/23/2011 2:38 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ... > http://goo.gl/H6d0n > A Fair Maid. Volume 1. By Frederick William Robinson. 1889 > p. 117 >> He looked after her for an instant, even seemed disposed to call to >> her, as though there were further questions he would put to her >> before she left him; then he sat down on the seat under the porch, >> laid bis sunburnt hands upon his knees, and thought the subject out, >> and his pipe out, and, at last, the daylight out; for when he came >> back to himself, there were the deepening shadows of the night >> advancing, and only a red tint lingering in the sky away to the west >> of him. > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Tue Aug 23 19:24:41 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:24:41 -0500 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108231811.p7NI6b10023348@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE Wisconsin State Journal | Madison, Wisconsin | Wednesday, December 12, 1945 | Page 6 COL 1 " It is written that work never killed anyone but we know some fellows who are too timid to take any chances." > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On > Behalf Of Garson O'Toole > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 1:12 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - > Question about old time radio > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------- > -------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - > Question > about old time radio > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > The Yale Book of Quotations lists this important maxim as a > catchphrase of Edgar Bergen's wooden partner Charlie McCarthy. The > citation is indirect via the 1984 book "The Other 637 Best Things > Anybody Ever Said" by Robert Byrne. > > This phrase may have been derived from the following script fragment > reprinted in "Joe Franklin's Encyclopedia of Comedians": > > Charlie McCarthy: I can't take this schoolwork any more, it's driving > me crazy. > Edgar Bergen: Well, Charlie, I'm sorry, but hard work never killed > anybody. > Charlie: Still, there's no use taking chances. > Edgar: You have a test tomorrow, am I right? > Charlie: Well, yes, in a way. > Edgar: All right, now, I see what brought this on. You're scared you > won't pass. Suppose you tell me what you know about the brain. > Charlie: It's made from cereal, the silly- belly, and the muddled > alligator. > Edgar: No, no, that's the cerebrum, cerebellum, and the medulla > oblongata! Didn't you read books on the subject? > Charlie: To tell you the truth, I didn't read all the books on the > subject. Perhaps one book. ... > > Does any list member have experience tracing old-time radio scripts? I > do not know of any script databases. I sent an email to an old time > radio expert who compiled an episode guide for The Edgar Bergen and > Charlie McCarthy Show to ask if he recognized the episode and > broadcast date based in the script fragment. > > The other interesting match for the phrase that I have found is in > Walter Winchell's syndicated column in 1956. > > Cite: 1956 June 22, Daily Times-News, Walter Winchell of New York, > Page 4, Column 3, Burlington, North Carolina. (NewspaperArchive) > > Florian ZaBach's query: "Hard work never killed anyone, but why take a > chance on being the first victim?" (Hoomee?) > > Garson O'Toole > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 23 21:18:42 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:18:42 -0400 Subject: "Antarctica's Ice _Flow_ Fully Mapped For the First Time" [N[Y]T] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From the NYTimes today: "A new map of Antarctica illustrates for the first time how ice moves across the continent. ... According to the findings, an intricate pattern of organized ice flow connects the interior regions of the continent with its coast. This flow is largely caused by sheets of ice sliding on rocky beds, the researchers report." JSB ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 01:29:00 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:29:00 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing Message-ID: A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for the "extended event". Take it or leave it... VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 01:34:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 21:34:53 -0400 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio In-Reply-To: <201108231811.p7NAjdWZ017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Charlie: It's made from _cereal_, the silly- belly, and the muddled alligator. > Edgar: No, no, that's the _cerebrum_, cerebellum, and the medulla > oblongata! "cerebrum" > "cereal" Evidence that this dates from the time when _cerebrum_ still bore stress on its initial syllable? BTW, used to go to school with an Arab dude name of "Medulla Oblongata." Was a real brain. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Wed Aug 24 03:12:29 2011 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:12:29 -0400 Subject: Kittereen Message-ID: CHAISE-Boxes, Chair and Kittereen-Boxes, with all sorts of Wheels and Carriages for the same, are made by James Hallett, on Golden-Hill, at the Sign of the Chair-Wheel; at the most reasonable Rates, with all Expedition. N-Y Gazette Revived, February 12, 1750, p. 4, col. ? (from Early American Newspapers (now America's Historical Newspapers) OED: A kind of covered vehicle. ?*a.* In West of England, A kind of omnibus (*obs.*). *b.* In West Indies, A kind of one-horse chaise or buggy. 1792 *Descr. Kentucky* 42 In 1787 were exported Chaises 40, Kittareens 10, Sulkeys 7. 1831 J. Porter *Sir E. Seaward's Narr.* II. 336, I desired Drake to?hire a kittereen?a sort of one-horse chaise. 1865 R. Hunt *Pop. Romances W. Eng.* Introd. 14 Within my own memory [born 1807] the ordinary means of travelling from Penzance to Plymouth was a van called a ?kitterine?, and three days were occupied in the journey. GAT -- George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much since then. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 06:16:57 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 02:16:57 -0400 Subject: []'s Message-ID: >From Ezra Klein's list of 17 top tweets about the VA earthquake: Did anyone I have a crush on?s husband or boyfriend die in the earthquake? (Posted on Google+, but also in the WaPo blog.) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Wed Aug 24 07:05:27 2011 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:05:27 -0700 Subject: as ... than ... In-Reply-To: <201108231353.p7NAjk4G006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It seems to me that where the "as... than..." construction fails is in the loss of the following distinction: "as... as..." is used when the two terms are equal (e.g. "as much as"), whereas "more (or less, or whatever)... than..." is used when the terms are unequal. I'd be happy to say that the loss of meaning makes it incorrect. The examples given below all seem to arise from a confusion because both of the constructions are occurring in the same sentence. The only times that I can recall having heard anyone use "as... than..." when both constructions weren't occurring was in people for whom English was a second language and whose native language was German. Maybe they have a word that is similar to "than"? On Aug 23, 2011, at 6:53 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: Re: as ... than ... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 22, 2011, at 9:11 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: victor steinbok >> Subject: as ... than ... >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Is this standard usage? >> >> [Tea Party] supporters were twice as likely than others to favor a >>> constitutional amendment banning flag burning... >> >> >> >> I see this once in a while and it always makes me shudder. But I am >> hesitant >> to say it's "wrong". > > not standard, but certainly (reasonably well) attested. > > MWDEU p. 893: > > There are a number of syntactic blends involving than, some of which > are separately treated in this book: see as good or better than; > hardly ... than; scarcely ... than. > > ... Harper 1985 mentions a couple of instances of twice as many ... > than, which would seem to be compounded of more ... than and twice > as many ... as. We have also found the construction with much: > > ... twice as much office space is being built this year in the > suburbs around New York > City than in Manhattan ? N.Y. Times, 27 July 1985 > > ..... > > some exx from Google web search on {?twice as likely? than} 4/25/07: > > An Australian study shows that men who sit at their desks more than > six hours a day are nearly twice as likely to be overweight than > those who sit for less ... > www.webmd.com/diet/news/20050719/more-you-sit-at-work-more-you-weigh > > Individuals with Genetic Conditions Twice as Likely to Report Denial > of Health Insurance than Individuals with Other Chronic Illness. > www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2007/kass_genetic_testing.html > > Johns Hopkins study shows that individuals with genetic conditions > are twice as likely to report having been denied health insurance > than individuals with ... > www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-02/jhu-iwg021207.php > > The study found that children ages 6 to 11 and ages 12 to 17 who > were obese were more than twice as likely to have diabetes than > children of the same age ... > www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=77 > > These all have material intervening between as likely and than. But > there are plenty of examples with as likely than, e.g.: > > ... patients with major depression appear twice as likely than those > who are not depressed to die or be re-admitted to the hospital > within 12 months. > www.scienceblog.com/communityolder/2001/B/200111881.html > > They are twice as likely than the average adult and more likely than > readers of all other quality titles to agree to the statement ?I > consider myself ... > adinfo-guardian.co.uk/the-observer/obs-reader-profile.shtml > > Adults abused during childhood are more than twice as likely than > those not abused during childhood to have serious substance abuse > problems. > www.annafoundation.org/wchac-stats.html > > MONDAY, July 24 (HealthDay News) -- Men with multiple sclerosis (MS) > are more than twice as likely than women with the illness to pass it > on to their ... > www.multiplesclerosis.com/admin/templates/news.aspx?articleid=348&zoneid=50 > > > > > > > > > >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 07:20:59 2011 From: ericbarnak at GMAIL.COM (Eric Nielsen) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:20:59 -0400 Subject: Dialect variation in the Times In-Reply-To: <201108231545.p7NAjdGH017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This site has an extensive chronology of the song--and lyrics for the Big Bill and Little Walter versions: http://keeponliving.at/song/key_to_the_highway.html Jazz Gillum, with Big Bill Broonzy, recorded the song right after Charles Segar. I wonder if changing the melody, lyrics, and number of bars is enough to claim at least partial authorship. Song titles can't be copyrighted; cf. "I Kissed a Girl", Jill Sobule--and Katy Perry. Eric On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 23, 2011, at 7:00 AM, Eric Nielsen wrote: > > > Here's the Charles Segar version: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuFjdHZgElw > > > > Very interesting: Segar's is a twelve bar blues. All the other > > versions (that I am familiar with) are eight bar blues. In fact, "Key to > the > > Highway" is often given as an example of the eight bar form. > > > > Eric > > That is quite different from those of the 200 versions I sampled, including > the more prominent ones. I ended up e-plunking down my $0.99 for one of the > Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee versions (a very nice 5:12 cut from a "Blues > Six-Pack"), EP, which Sonny/Brownie introduce by thanking their friend for > writing it?ig Bill Broonzy. I imagine Segar must have ended up feeling a > bit like Rodney Dangerfield. > > LH > > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 9:17 PM, Laurence Horn >wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Laurence Horn > >> Subject: Re: Dialect variation in the Times > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> At the iTunes Store there are 200 versions of "Key" to sample (90 = > >> seconds each), including some nice get-togethers: Sonny and Brownie with > = > >> Big Bill Broonzy, B. B. King with Eric Clapton, and so on. None of the > = > >> 200 versions are by William Charles Segar. It is a good song. =20 > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 08:58:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 04:58:16 -0400 Subject: down economy Message-ID: "Down economy" seems to be a fairly common phrase right now. For example, this is the latest headline in Corporate Counsel: Down Economy and Increased Regulation Impact Corporate Fraud, Reports Say http://goo.gl/wDk8m This seems to have a somewhat archaic sound. Of course, there is little formality to stop the use of "up" and "down" as adjective in reporting. The Corporate Counsel article compounds that illusion by citing Walter Scott in the very first line: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." All the related down adj. subentries in the OED lack recent examples: 1. a. Directed downwards; descending. Also fig. > [1647-1894] > b. Of looks or aspect: Directed downwards. > [1565-1716] > 2. In a low condition of health or vitality. rare. > [1690-1885] > ?3. Downcast, dejected. Obs. (exc. predicatively: see down adv. 18). > [1644] There are also two entries that mention "down trip"--one direct (1.e.) and one more expansive, under "draft additions)--certainly they are related and may need to be merged. Both are linked to down n.3 Draft Additions 1993 a., but in opposite directions--one points TO it, the other is pointed to from there. But it is one of these that "down economy" appears to most closely resemble: U.S. slang. Causing or characterized by depression, despondency, or lack > of vigour; down trip, an unpleasant or depressing hallucinatory experience > induced by the drug LSD. Cf. down n.3 Additions a. I just can't get past the disconnect between "down economy" and "down trip"--they certainly don't feel related. ;-) One is depressed, the other one's depressing. VS-) PS: Totally off-topic, but the article mentions an interesting conclusion on profiles of "typical fraudsters": > * A 36- to 45-year-old male in a senior management role in the finance unit > or in a finance-related function; > * An employee for more than 10 years who usually would work in collusion > with another individual. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 09:05:27 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 05:05:27 -0400 Subject: wafer Message-ID: A nice teaser in an article in AmLaw Daily: What is "a wafer" when it comes to semiconductor technology? If you cut > it into lots of pieces, is it still a wafer? That was the question the > Federal Circuit addressed in a ruling Monday. Unfortunately, the article appears to be behind a paywall, even though the referring page lists it as free content. The email summary is somewhat different: On Monday the Federal Circuit vacated a patent infringement judgment in a > case involving semiconductors, spending much of the 22-page ruling > discussing just what a wafer is and whether the term "a wafer" can also mean > "a plurality of wafers." Either way, it's another case that hinges on the meaning of a single word. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 13:43:39 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:43:39 -0400 Subject: down economy In-Reply-To: <201108240858.p7NJNYPH017655@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: It's kind of a "depressed" economy, but they don't want to say that because 1. that sounds like an economic depression 2. strictly speaking, the economy isn't even "depressed"; it's just growing very slowly and there's a lot of unemployment 3. "depressed" sounds too depressing 4. "depressed" has too many letters and syllables. "Sluggish" is a frequent choice, but that also has too many letters and syllables. What's more, "sluggish" implies limited, occasional progress, whereas "down" suggests a dead stall. It sounds like your computer. Only a geek or something from the cloud can fix it. But it's still less depressing than "depressed," which may suggest a long-term condition. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:58 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: down economy > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "Down economy" seems to be a fairly common phrase right now. For example, > this is the latest headline in Corporate Counsel: > > Down Economy and Increased Regulation Impact Corporate Fraud, Reports Say > > http://goo.gl/wDk8m > > This seems to have a somewhat archaic sound. Of course, there is little > formality to stop the use of "up" and "down" as adjective in reporting. The > Corporate Counsel article compounds that illusion by citing Walter Scott in > the very first line: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we > practic= > e > to deceive." > > All the related down adj. subentries in the OED lack recent examples: > > 1. a. Directed downwards; descending. Also fig. > > > [1647-1894] > > b. Of looks or aspect: Directed downwards. > > [1565-1716] > > 2. In a low condition of health or vitality. rare. > > [1690-1885] > > =E2=80=A03. Downcast, dejected. Obs. (exc. predicatively: see down adv. > 1= > 8). > > [1644] > > > There are also two entries that mention "down trip"--one direct (1.e.) and > one more expansive, under "draft additions)--certainly they are related and > may need to be merged. Both are linked to down n.3 Draft Additions 1993 a., > but in opposite directions--one points TO it, the other is pointed to from > there. > > But it is one of these that "down economy" appears to most closely > resemble= > : > > U.S. slang. Causing or characterized by depression, despondency, or lack > > of vigour; down trip, an unpleasant or depressing hallucinatory > experienc= > e > > induced by the drug LSD. Cf. down n.3 Additions a. > > > I just can't get past the disconnect between "down economy" and "down > trip"--they certainly don't feel related. ;-) One is depressed, the other > one's depressing. > > VS-) > > PS: Totally off-topic, but the article mentions an interesting conclusion > o= > n > profiles of "typical fraudsters": > > > * A 36- to 45-year-old male in a senior management role in the finance > un= > it > > or in a finance-related function; > > * An employee for more than 10 years who usually would work in collusion > > with another individual. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 13:54:48 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:54:48 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108240128.p7NL3uxG006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: You're too tolerant. "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they haven't fixed it. BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 states and Canada. Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. JL On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Interesting phrasing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > > > When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > > Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > > middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." > > Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the > middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had > long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong > with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for > the "extended event". > > Take it or leave it... > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 14:10:48 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:10:48 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108241354.p7OAxYDS004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The reports along the strip stretching from North Carolina to Maine are likely accurate--it was certainly felt in Boston (as long as you were not on the ground floor). Reports from Wisconsin are not likely to be related to this particular event, but there were 9 or 10 separate shocks recorded in Colorado yesterday that got ignored because of the one in Virginia--some were just echoes of small ones in California, but those that had the epicenter in Colorado could have been felt in Wisconsin. But none of those were over 5.0. VS-) On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > You're too tolerant. > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they > haven't > fixed it. > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in > 22 > states and Canada. > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and > neither > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok >wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Victor Steinbok > > Subject: Interesting phrasing > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > > > > > When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > > > Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > > > middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." > > > > Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the > > middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had > > long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong > > with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for > > the "extended event". > > > > Take it or leave it... > > > > VS-) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Wed Aug 24 14:32:59 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ronald Butters) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:32:59 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Too tolerant?" Nonsense. If I say, "It sure is cold in here" and my butler turns up the heat, is bmy butler being too tolerant of the indirectness of speech act? It does not take any imagination whatever to understand that what he intended to CONVEY was "We are in the middle of dealing with the after-effects of an earthquake that just a few minutes ago disrupted service." But I suppose if he had said that, someone would have complained that he was verbose. I am reminded of Swift's philosophers who thought language too imprecise, so they carried around objects to show to each other. I forget what they did about verbs. What;s next on ADS-L, sunbeams out of cucumbers? On Aug 24, 2011, at 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're too tolerant. > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they haven't > fixed it. > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 > states and Canada. > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Interesting phrasing >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: >> >>> When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, >>> Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the >>> middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." >> >> Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the >> middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had >> long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong >> with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for >> the "extended event". >> >> Take it or leave it... >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 24 14:36:03 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:36:03 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/24/2011 09:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 >states and Canada. > >Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither >I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. You're too grounded, Jon. People on upper floors in Boston and Cambridge (Kendall Square area) alleged in television interviews that they felt it. I did not, in Arlington -- MA, that is. But I live near the top of "The Foot of the Rocks" -- from which British flankers fired on the patriots during their retreat from Concord -- from the elevated side, that is, not the foot -- and beneath me is bedrock. There would be less earth motion than in the land-fill areas of Boston and East Cambridge. (I also slept through an earthquake in San Francisco, so perhaps I am not typical. But then again, I grew up not too many blocks from the Jerome Ave. elevated.) (Was the Verizon guy was anticipating aftershocks?) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 24 14:50:31 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:50:31 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108241436.p7OEa40p018151@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/24/2011 09:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 >> states and Canada. >> >> Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither >> I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > You're too grounded, Jon. People on upper floors in Boston and > Cambridge (Kendall Square area) alleged in television interviews that > they felt it. > > I did not, in Arlington -- MA, that is. But I live near the top of > "The Foot of the Rocks" -- from which British flankers fired on the > patriots during their retreat from Concord -- from the elevated side, > that is, not the foot -- and beneath me is bedrock. There would be > less earth motion than in the land-fill areas of Boston and East > Cambridge. (I also slept through an earthquake in San Francisco, so > perhaps I am not typical. But then again, I grew up not too many > blocks from the Jerome Ave. elevated.) > My daughter, in NYC (Ridgewood, Queens to be precise), was in a ground floor apartment and said it was like being on a subway platform when the express goes by. My colleagues and family members here in New Haven (not on the ground floor) definitely felt it; I probably did too but processed it as a large truck, which happens a few times a day and rattles my office slightly. In Bethesda, books fell off shelves but nothing huge, and that seems to be true of people I know in Virginia as well (even in Charlottesville, a few miles from the epicenter, someone I know who works at the UVA Hospital complains that it only interrupted work for 5 minutes, although it did make him nostalgic for home (Santa Cruz, where the whole downtown was wiped out by the '89 quake). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 15:38:47 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:38:47 -0400 Subject: Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance - Question about old time radio In-Reply-To: <201108240135.p7NL3u02006294@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks to Bill and Wilson for responding. Bill Mullins wrote > Wisconsin State Journal | Madison, Wisconsin | Wed, December 12, > 1945 | Page 6 COL 1 > "It is written that work never killed anyone but we know some fellows > who are too timid to take any chances." This 1945 cite is great. This proverb may be viewed as a twisted version of the base proverb "hard work never hurt [killed] anybody" but the word "hard" has been deleted in Bill's example. There is a collection called "Twisted Wisdom: Modern Anti-Proverbs" by Wolfgang Mieder and Anna Litovkina that contains proverbs of this general type. Here is an example of the base proverb that I located in 1850 that cites an 1844 newspaper. The phrase is already labeled an "old saying": Cite: 1850, Serpents in Hedges: A Plea for Moderation in the Hours Employed in Business by Samuel Martin, Page 29, Ward and Co., London. W. Herepath, Esq., M.P. "It was an old saying that hard work never killed anybody; and he believed that hard work in the open air and in a good atmosphere did not do so much mischief as some persons imagined. Unfortunately, however, the work required of the drapers' and other assistants was not carried on in a good atmosphere. Must not continuous labour in ill-ventilated and often crowded shops produce in the drapers' assistant disease and premature death?" [Footnote dagger] [Footnote dagger] Bristol Mercury, May 11, 1844. Wilson Gray wrote > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Garson O'Toole >> Charlie: It's made from _cereal_, the silly- belly, and the muddled alligator. >> Edgar: No, no, that's the _cerebrum_, cerebellum, and the medulla >> oblongata! > > "cerebrum" > "cereal" > > Evidence that this dates from the time when _cerebrum_ still bore > stress on its initial syllable? If I find an audio recording of the relevant episode I will try to send you the relevant section for an analysis of the stress pattern. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Aug 24 15:45:49 2011 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:45:49 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is, of course, off topic. However, my office building, some 4 states away, swayed ominously (felt like being on a small boat on choppy water), and, after we made our way down 9 flights of stairs, there was only intermittent cell signal for about an hour. On 8/24/11 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > You're too tolerant. > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they haven't > fixed it. > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in 22 > states and Canada. > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and neither > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > JL > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbokwrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Victor Steinbok >> Subject: Interesting phrasing >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: >> >>> When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, >>> Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the >>> middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." >> >> Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the >> middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had >> long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong >> with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for >> the "extended event". >> >> Take it or leave it... >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 16:55:04 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:55:04 -0400 Subject: Interesting phrasing In-Reply-To: <201108241545.p7OFLQ0E004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I meant to imply only that saying the quake "was felt in 22 states and Canada," without specifying whether it was felt by actual human beings in all 22, makes it seem far worse than it was. As do the inevitable maps highlighting the full territory of all 22 states, which makes it look like the quake set people vibrating all along the Mississippi and on Lake Superior's northwestern shore. Anyway, Verizon still wasn't "in the middle of an earthquake." If Richard Young was scared out of his wits when he said so, however, I'm willing to cut him some slack. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 11:45 AM, Alice Faber wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Alice Faber > Organization: Haskins Laboratories > Subject: Re: Interesting phrasing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is, of course, off topic. However, my office building, some 4 > states away, swayed ominously (felt like being on a small boat on choppy > water), and, after we made our way down 9 flights of stairs, there was > only intermittent cell signal for about an hour. > > On 8/24/11 9:54 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > You're too tolerant. > > > > "In the middle of an earthquake," when the quake is over, implies that > > there's so much act-of-God chaos at Verizon HQ that *of course* they > haven't > > fixed it. > > > > BTW, the news claims (truthfully, I suppose) that the quake was "felt" in > 22 > > states and Canada. > > > > Felt by what super-sensitive devices? I'm in an adjoining state and > neither > > I nor anybody I've asked felt or noticed anything at all. > > > > JL > > > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 PM, Victor Steinbok >wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: Victor Steinbok > >> Subject: Interesting phrasing > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> A comment on the cell phone outage in parts of the country today: > >> > >>> When asked why the phone lines weren't working Tuesday afternoon, > >>> Richard Young, a Verizon spokesman simply responded: "We're in the > >>> middle of an earthquake right now, so it's not surprising." > >> > >> Well, that's fine, except that "we"--including Verizon--were not "in the > >> middle of an earthquake" when the comment was made. The earthquake had > >> long passed by then. I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong > >> with the comment--in fact, it seems to be fairly typical shorthand for > >> the "extended event". > >> > >> Take it or leave it... > >> > >> VS-) > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > -- > > ============================================================================== > Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu > Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 > New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 18:24:23 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:24:23 -0400 Subject: the "Ishmael effect" Message-ID: I've seen this term used elsewhere recently, but it isn't in OED: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/books/review/24GOTTLIE.html The identification of the phenomenon is sound, but, if the etymological rationale afforded by the Times is accurate, the terminology is plain stupid - except for all-important PR purposes: "Melville's Ishmael in 'Moby-Dick'' quotes Job's 'I only am escaped alone to tell thee' and then spins a tale of adventure nobody could have survived to tell." Of course Ishmael could have survived, though against all odds. He floated on Queequeg's airtight coffin and was picked up by the _Rachel_. Furthermore, he's a fictional character, so he can survive anything. If the general idea of "miraculous escape" is what the term is getting at, it confuses "supernatural" with "quite unlikely." Furthermore, Ishmael doesn't quote Job till the end of the story. Did Stove (catch the pun?) even re-read the book before he named the phenomenon? I'd have expected better terminology from a contrarian philosopher. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Wed Aug 24 18:34:46 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:34:46 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." Message-ID: Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, two hours ago, including http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 19:12:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:12:38 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241835.p7OFLQgE004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as hilarious. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: "The dog ate my ..." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, > two hours ago, including > http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 > > I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From > which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there > was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: > > http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 19:39:24 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (Victor Steinbok) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:39:24 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241912.p7OArYqa028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs cellulose supplements. ;-) VS-) On 8/24/2011 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y > > Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. > > I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as > hilarious. > > JL > > > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, >> two hours ago, including >> http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 >> >> I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From >> which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there >> was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: >> >> http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 >> >> Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 19:53:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:53:08 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241938.p7OIpQtM004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: So it could - in theory - be based on an actual event from the dawn of homework-as-we- know-it. JL On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. > > The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste > for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about > three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs > cellulose supplements. ;-) > > VS-) > > On 8/24/2011 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right > here: > > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y > > > > Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. > > > > I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as > > hilarious. > > > > JL > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > >> Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, > >> two hours ago, including > >> > http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 > >> > >> I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From > >> which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there > >> was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: > >> > >> > http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 > >> > >> Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 24 22:32:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:32:47 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241912.p7OArYqa028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y > When, ca. 1981, the student showed up at the circ desk with a mangled mess in her hand, she explained, "My dog ate this library book," The evidence adduced in support of this claim seemed irrefutable. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Wed Aug 24 22:52:36 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:52:36 -0700 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241938.p7OHGOBP007502@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. > > The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste > for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about > three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs > cellulose supplements. ;-) back in columbus, some years ago, we had a lovely dog who just hated anything that came through the mailslot. she savaged the mail. including a summons to jury duty. fortunately, she didn't actually eat it. so we were able to paste the pieces back together and notify the board of elections, which accepted the paste-up and sent us another, fresh, summons that my wife was able to sign and send in. the mailman started leaving the mail outside the front door after that. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Wed Aug 24 23:04:32 2011 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:04:32 -0500 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241938.p7OHGOBP007502@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Then there was the time I almost had to tell my students that my dog ate their homework. (I managed to retrieve it before he did serious damage.) Jim Parish On 8/24/2011 2:39 PM, Victor Steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Victor Steinbok > Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. > > The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste > for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about > three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs > cellulose supplements. ;-) > > VS-) > > On 8/24/2011 3:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> And the five-star "origin" of the dogs-eating-homework tale is right here: >> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091002114825AASeP2Y >> >> Someone here traced it back to Feb., 1962. I tried but can't better it. >> >> I remember it from high school, probably in '63 or '64. It struck me as >> hilarious. >> >> JL >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: >> >>> Latest excuse - "The dog ate my diamonds." See probably many sites, >>> two hours ago, including >>> http://www.newsmax.com/US/georgia-dog-eats-diamonds/2011/08/24/id/408480 >>> >>> I see, however, that this is dog redux -- or perhaps reflux? From >>> which end of the 2011 dog were the diamonds recovered? -- since there >>> was a similar but potentially twice as costly incident in January 2010: >>> >>> http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/offbeat/jewelers-dog-eats-20000-diamond-031110 >>> >>> Joel > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 00:40:31 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 20:40:31 -0400 Subject: down economy In-Reply-To: <201108241343.p7OAxYA0004738@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Actually, "down economy" used to mean an economy experiencing a decline in GNP or some other national economic measure. At least, that is how it was used in the mid-70s. This would be strongly associated with a recession, which requires two consecutive negative quarters, but you can have a down economy without a recession. I have no doubt that non-economists would use "down economy' to mean "an economy that sucks", but no economist would. DanG On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: down economy > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's kind of a "depressed" economy, but they don't want to say that because > > 1. that sounds like an economic depression > > 2. strictly speaking, the economy isn't even "depressed"; it's just growing > very slowly and there's a lot of unemployment > > 3. "depressed" sounds too depressing > > 4. "depressed" has too many letters and syllables. > > "Sluggish" is a frequent choice, but that also has too many letters and > syllables. What's more, "sluggish" implies limited, occasional progress, > whereas "down" suggests a dead stall. It sounds like your computer. Only a > geek or something from the cloud can fix it. > > But it's still less depressing than "depressed," which may suggest a > long-term condition. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:58 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: victor steinbok >> Subject: down economy >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> "Down economy" seems to be a fairly common phrase right now. For example, >> this is the latest headline in Corporate Counsel: >> >> Down Economy and Increased Regulation Impact Corporate Fraud, Reports Say >> >> http://goo.gl/wDk8m >> >> This seems to have a somewhat archaic sound. Of course, there is little >> formality to stop the use of "up" and "down" as adjective in reporting. The >> Corporate Counsel article compounds that illusion by citing Walter Scott in >> the very first line: "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we >> practic= >> e >> to deceive." >> >> All the related down adj. subentries in the OED lack recent examples: >> >> 1. a. Directed downwards; descending. Also fig. >> >> > [1647-1894] >> > b. Of looks or aspect: Directed downwards. >> > [1565-1716] >> > 2. In a low condition of health or vitality. rare. >> > [1690-1885] >> > =E2=80=A03. Downcast, dejected. Obs. (exc. predicatively: see down adv. >> 1= >> 8). >> > [1644] >> >> >> There are also two entries that mention "down trip"--one direct (1.e.) and >> one more expansive, under "draft additions)--certainly they are related and >> may need to be merged. Both are linked to down n.3 Draft Additions 1993 a., >> but in opposite directions--one points TO it, the other is pointed to from >> there. >> >> But it is one of these that "down economy" appears to most closely >> resemble= >> : >> >> U.S. slang. Causing or characterized by depression, despondency, or lack >> > of vigour; down trip, an unpleasant or depressing hallucinatory >> experienc= >> e >> > induced by the drug LSD. Cf. down n.3 Additions a. >> >> >> I just can't get past the disconnect between "down economy" and "down >> trip"--they certainly don't feel related. ;-) One is depressed, the other >> one's depressing. >> >> VS-) >> >> PS: Totally off-topic, but the article mentions an interesting conclusion >> o= >> n >> profiles of "typical fraudsters": >> >> > * A 36- to 45-year-old male in a senior management role in the finance >> un= >> it >> > or in a finance-related function; >> > * An employee for more than 10 years who usually would work in collusion >> > with another individual. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Aug 25 00:41:01 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 17:41:01 -0700 Subject: on reversed "substitute" Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/more-egotism/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 01:21:22 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:21:22 -0400 Subject: perMIT, n. In-Reply-To: <201108051646.p75FY9Kj006486@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Also in _Sinner's Holiday_ (1930): "About three weeks ago, I got you a per-MIT to get a gun." The actor speaking (Purnell Pratt) was born in 1885 on Bethel, Ill. Accordding to IMDb, he attended both USC and the University of Pennsylvania. Dunno if he used the pronunciation off camera. JL On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: perMIT, n. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > In the movie _Blackwell's Island_ (1939), starring the great John > Garfield, > > a prison guard explains clearly that a visitor "has a perMIT signed by > the > > Deputy Commissioner of Corrections." > > > > _perMIT in wide use since at least 1939? (I assume "wide," based on > the assumption that the "guard" was portrayed by a white actor.) That > certainly jibes with my personal experience, though, till now, I'd > been under the misprehapprehension that it was essentially only a BE > thing. > > I keep forgetting that, in reality. I've lived my entire life without > any true social contact whatsoever with white people, despite the fact > that, my God! they're everywhere! Hence, I lack any gefuehl for the > sprach of "the other group." > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Thu Aug 25 01:29:47 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 20:29:47 -0500 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." Message-ID: We had one who specialized in my wife's bedroom slippers, but only the right one. Ate three or four pairs, IIRC, before she lost the taste fore them. Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net Waynesville, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Steinbok" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 2:39 PM Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it. The dog is still alive, but no longer eats checks--she lost the taste for paper (she also used to eat any paper towels she could find) about three years ago. At 13, she's on a high-fiber diet, so no longer needs cellulose supplements. ;-) VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 01:44:54 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:44:54 -0400 Subject: Yo! Message-ID: OED has this in the sense of "Hey!" only from 1958. 1920 _Company "A," Twenty-Third Engineers, A.E.F._ (Chicago: n.p.) 112: Company Sayings [1917-19] ... When do we eat? ... Yo!! Breakfast. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 03:38:46 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:38:46 -0400 Subject: "Start your conversion from _a far_!" Message-ID: Reminds me of a verse from a '50's R&B song: She took the keys to my Cadillac car Jumped in my Kitty and drove afar Well, _away_ wouldn't have rhymed. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 06:29:32 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 02:29:32 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108241953.p7OArYwM028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Certainly not the earliest, but here's one from 1964: http://goo.gl/fVDJ1 > Meriden Journal - Jul 13, 1964 Fun Time. The Chuckle Box. p. 5 > Passenger: I'm sorry, but my dog ate my ticket. Conductor: Then I suggest > you buy him a second helping. VS-) On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > So it could - in theory - be based on an actual event from the dawn of > homework-as-we- know-it. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Victor Steinbok >wrote: > > > > > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate > > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them > > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. > > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner > > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it.... > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 07:19:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 03:19:02 -0400 Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] Message-ID: This is nothing particularly earth-shattering, but the OED quotations terminate in the 1870s. http://goo.gl/1BCou Evening Post, Volume CXI, Issue 133, 5 June 1926 The World Greatest Dancer. Page 9 (last graf) > Miss Thursa Rogers, who has made a good reputation in London and Paris as a > premiere danseuse, lived in Wellington until six years ago. > VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 08:10:19 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 04:10:19 -0400 Subject: Season ticket Message-ID: The OED has a definition of a "season ticket" under season n. C.2. season ticket n. a ticket which admits the holder to travel on a boat or on > a line of railway, to enter an exhibition, etc., an unlimited number of > times during a season or specified period, at a reduced rate of payment; > hence season-ticket holder. This is a bit different from current American usage. The earliest quotation (1820) is actually a reference to a Boston Theatre Season Ticket, so there is some continuity. But, in most instances, today a discount document of this nature might be more properly referred to as a "season pass", as used, for example, for ski resorts. "Season pass" or "semester pass" is also the usual reference to a discount card for public transportation that is made available to college students, e.g. at UW-Madison. In other instances, the name of the pass usually corresponds to the length of the discount period and/or the mode of transportation, e.g., "bus pass", "day pass", "monthly pass", "seven-day pass", "commuter rail pass", etc. (although for shorter periods, usually 1-7 days, it may well be a "ticket"). A "season ticket" is more frequently used in connection with sports events--particularly with professional and high-profile college teams--as well as with cultural enterprises, such as a city orchestra, theater or jazz club, although "subscription" is more commonly used with the latter bunch. The holder of a "season ticket" get /all/ the tickets for a particular season or some subset of tickets arranged along a particular theme--for example, a baseball team may offer season tickets for all games, all weekend games, all day games or all evening games. Holders of season tickets usually get additional rights, such as a direct entry into a lottery for playoff games, merchandise discounts, access to special events, etc. And a particularly special right associated with season tickets is that they are renewable--that is, a holder of a season ticket may purchase one for the following year, while non-holders may be denied this opportunity if season tickets are popular. Some fans make such season tickets hereditary. One thing that season ticket holders usually don't get--at least, not at sports events--is discounts on actual individual tickets, although the package for a series of cultural events, such as theater season, may well cost less than the total cost of individual tickets to each event. I am not citing any of these because the usage is so common. I have no idea how either phrase is used in the UK or other Anglophone parts of the world. But the use of "season-ticket holder" remains the same--even with a different kind of "season ticket". In contrast, there are no OED entries at all for "season pass", "monthly pass", "bus pass" or "day pass" (although, see below for more general "pass"). "Bus pass" does appear in a quotation under "bus lane" in bus n.2: 1995 Independent 23 May 6/8 How about, for an experimental period, > closing the House of Commons car park, giving each MP a week's bus pass, and > putting a bus lane up and down Whitehall? Similarly, "day pass" shows up under "life membership" in life n.: 1999 M. Syal Life isn't all Ha Ha Hee Hee (2000) iii. 127 He had > wangled the odd day pass, but life membership and bar privileges would not > be forthcoming. "Day pass" may mean either "one-time admission" or "unlimited admission/use for one day". A part of the problem is that in many modes of public transport in the US tickets are obsolete--one pays when entering the vehicle (bus or trolley) or the system (subway, metro, T, L, etc.) and that's the only transaction that's necessary. Where the cost of a trip may depend on the location of ingress and egress, such as DC Metro or SF BART, a physical ticket is necessary to get on and off. But in NYC, Boston, DC and several other places there is an additional distinction between [paper] tickets, [plastic] cards and [monthly or multi-trip] passes. Tickets usually come with a fixed value (although that value may go toward more than one ride). "Cards" are refillable (a.k.a. "smart cards"). And "passes" are as I described earlier--unlimited trips for a specified period or a specified number of trips with a pre-paid discount. General "pass" in this sense is a variant of pass n.4 7.a.and 7.f.: 7. a. Permission to leave, enter, or travel somewhere; a document giving or > declaring such permission. Also fig. f. A card, ticket, or permit giving authorization for the holder to enter > or have access to a place, form of transport, or event, esp. one which > requires no payment, or for which payment has been made in advance. Also: a > document showing that the holder is entitled to concessionary fares, rates > of admission, etc. Note, however, that the subway tickets and cards are rarely, if ever, identified as "passes", except in the "monthly pass" or "season pass" uses. Also note that some quotations under 7.f. use "pass" in a different sense (closer to 7.a.?): 1894 Times (Weekly ed.) 9 Feb. 113/2 An?applicant for a free pass over > this company's lines of railway. > 2002 Daily Variety (Nexis) 4 Dec. 45 As a young boy he distributed > weekly circulars for the local movie theater door-to-door. His pay was an > unlimited free pass to the movies. In both of these, "pass" is actual passage or access, not a document signifying permission for passage. Other quotations refer to physical documents or tickets that allow passage or allow unlimited passage. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 08:33:48 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:33:48 +0800 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108250629.p7OKngWs028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: In northeast China, I considered it my cultural homework to eat dog -- a popular dish there. (Usually in soup, but sometimes the sliced meat with scallions. Not bad; kind of like beef.) And just for a tad of linguistic content (not related to homework): after my first son was born, my northeast-Chinese wife would put him on her shoulder and in a typical Chinese seller-song melody, sing: mai4 gou3rou4 lei! jin1tian1 bu4mai3 ming2tian1 jiu4 chou4 lei! (I'm) selling dog meat! If (you) don't buy (it) today (it'll) be stinky tomorrow! Here's the melody in solfege letters (a following dot indicates the octave below). The rhythm is just even quarter notes with a break between the two lines. d s. m d d d d s. d d d m d -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 10:02:12 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:02:12 -0400 Subject: Phrase origin tale: waiting for the other shoe to drop (1904 June 30) Message-ID: A Reuters article dated August 24, 2011 reported the resignation of Steve Jobs: "It's really sad," the CEO told Reuters. "No one is looking at this as a business thing, but as a human thing. No one thinks that Steve is just stepping aside because he just doesn't want to be CEO of Apple anymore." "It feels like another shoe is going to drop." This article motivated me to examine the expression "waiting for the other shoe to drop." It is covered at Michael Quinion's World Wide Words here: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-wai1.htm Barry Popik recorded his discoveries about the phrase here: http://goo.gl/qqHUF http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/waiting_for_the_other_shoe_to_drop/ ADS list participant Sam Clements found the earliest relevant cite dated April 16, 1905, and he sent it to the list in 2005. The cite refers to an origin story for the phrase, but it does not recount it. It also assigns the origin tale to Mark Twain, but I do not think that any supporting evidence for Twain's connection to the story has yet emerged. He did live to 1910. Here is a link into the archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;W8RePw;200501140058410500B Barry Popik gives a citation for an origin story dated August 11, 1905. Here is a version of the tale in 1904. It is reprinted from the Indianapolis News. Cite: 1904 June 30, The Implement Age, Advertisement Department, Nervous Man in Next Room, Page 28, Column 2, Implement Age Co., Philadelphia-Chicago. (Google Books full view) NERVOUS MAN IN NEXT ROOM. A traveling man stopped at a hotel at Monticello. The proprietor told him he could not lodge him, not a room in the house. The traveling man protested. He must have a room. Finally the proprietor told him there was a room, a little room separated by a thin partition from a nervous man, a man who had lived in the house for ten years. "He is so nervous," said the landlord, "I don't dare put anyone in that room. The least noise might give him a nervous spell that would endanger his life." "Oh, give me a room," said the traveler, "I'll be so quiet he'll not know I'm there." Well, the room was given the traveler. He slipped in noiselessly and began to disrobe. He took off one article of clothing after another as quietly as a burglar. At last he came to his shoes. He unlaced a shoe, and then, man-like, dropped it. The shoe fell to the floor with a great noise. The offending traveler, horrified at what he had done, waited to hear from the nervous man. Not a sound. He took off the second shoe and placed it noiselessly upon the floor. Then, in absolute silence, he finished undressing and crawled between the sheets. Half an hour went by. He had dropped into a doze, when there came a tremendous knocking on the partition. The traveler sat up in bed trembling and dismayed. "Wha-wha-what's the matter?" he asked. Then came the voice of the nervous man: "Blame you! Drop that other shoe!" - Indianapolis News Here is the punch line of another version of the traveler and the nervous man story published in 1904. Cite: 1904 August 13, Los Angeles Times, The Congress Convention: Seventh District Delegates Carry Out Slate, Page 6, Los Angeles, California. (ProQuest) 'Why,' came the feeble reply, 'I'm a sick man; I am a nervous wreck, and I can't go to sleep until you take off that other shoe.' Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 10:14:16 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 06:14:16 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: <201108250629.p7OKngWs028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Below is a link to a message in the ADS archive that gives the citation for a New York Times article dated February 18, 1962. The article contains: "Homework still isn't handed in because the book was left in school; the dog ate it; the baby ate it; little brother scribbled all over it; ..." http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ADS-L;3C7FwQ;200403242357050500D Here is a remark analogous to "the dog ate my homework" from the mouth of a major military figure in 1932. Cite: 1932 June 23, Boston Globe, Odd Items From Everywhere, Page 28, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) The story of what became of the speech Gen Max Weygand was to have made when he took his place recently as one of the Immortals of the French Academy, has been revealed. When the time came for his address, he rose and said: "Gentlemen, I had prepared a speech of more than six pages, but I left it on my study table and my dog ate it." Here is an example two years before the 1962 date above where a "census form" instantiates the neglected task instead of homework. Cite: 1960 April 3, New York Times, Census Aides' Day is Spent on Phone, Page 82, New York. (ProQuest) At the Union County, N, J., district office, where Shelby F. Fell is supervisor, a record was kept of the explanations householders gave for their need of a census form. Only a few said the mail carrier had failed to deliver it. Others said: "My dog ate it." "My baby chewed it up." "It went out with the garbage." "My son burned it up with old papers." Here is another thematically related piece of humor in 1960. Cite: 1960 August 18, Boston Globe, Quick Course, [Associated Press article], Page 34, Boston, Massachusetts. (ProQuest) [Title given as "Ouick Course" by ProQuest] When Marlin Townsend acquired his young German shepherd dog he borrowed a book from the library on the care and training of the pet. Townsend didn't find what was in the book. The dog ate it. Here are some more excuses from adults instead of schoolchildren in 1960. Cite: 1960 October 17, Chicago Tribune, Reaching Absentee Voters Presents Big Election Task by Louise Hutchinson, Page 5, Chicago, Illinois. (ProQuest) Once a ballot is sent, the board must know its whereabouts if it isn't returned. And this yields some odd responses. "A Chicagoan vacationing in California answered our inquiry one year that a dog had eaten it," Machinis said. "Another replied the baby had lost it." Garson On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:29 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: "The dog ate my ..." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Certainly not the earliest, but here's one from 1964: > > http://goo.gl/fVDJ1 > >> Meriden Journal - Jul 13, 1964 > Fun Time. The Chuckle Box. p. 5 > >> Passenger: I'm sorry, but my dog ate my ticket. Conductor: Then I suggest >> you buy him a second helping. > > > VS-) > > On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> >> So it could - in theory - be based on an actual event from the dawn of >> homework-as-we- know-it. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Victor Steinbok > >wrote: >> >> > >> > Of no linguistic value, but a true story--we actually had a dog that ate >> > an insurance check. We had to call the insurance company and give them >> > the "dog ate my check" excuse so that they would send a replacement. >> > Even offered to send them the left-over scrap (about 2-in. corner >> > piece). They laughed very hard for a long time, but replaced it.... >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 25 12:46:53 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:46:53 -0400 Subject: "The dog ate my ..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/25/2011 04:33 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: >In northeast China, I considered it my cultural homework to eat dog -- a >popular dish there. The new novel news headline-- "Man *eats* dog." >(Usually in soup, but sometimes the sliced meat with scallions. Not bad; >kind of like beef.) I thought all exotic meats tasted like chicken. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 14:32:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? Message-ID: Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by?well, you'll see: CLAUDIO: Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract I got possession of Julietta's bed: You know the lady; she is fast my wife, Save that we do the denunciation lack Of outward order: this we came not to, Only for propagation of a dower Remaining in the coffer of her friends, From whom we thought it meet to hide our love Till time had made them for us. But it chances The stealth of our most mutual entertainment With character too gross is writ on Juliet. So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have been actually married except without the official banns being posted. As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all parallel. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Thu Aug 25 14:50:39 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 07:50:39 -0700 Subject: "few and far in between" Message-ID: on my blog: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/25/few-and-far-in-between/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 14:56:35 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:56:35 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: <201108251434.p7PAnScW031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I vote for "securely". Under the laws of the time, it was possible to engage in a secret marriage, but the couple was not entitle to copulate until the marriage was publicly declared. That is Claudio's issue here -- he is married (upon a true contract...she is fast my wife), but he also "got possession" of his wife's bed without the "denunciation ... of outward order". DanG On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: a missing "fast"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last = > night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond = > to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, = > Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical = > fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by=85well, = > you'll see: > > CLAUDIO: > Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract > I got possession of Julietta's bed: > You know the lady; she is fast my wife, > Save that we do the denunciation lack > Of outward order: this we came not to, > Only for propagation of a dower > Remaining in the coffer of her friends, > =46rom whom we thought it meet to hide our love > Till time had made them for us. But it chances > The stealth of our most mutual entertainment > With character too gross is writ on Juliet. > > So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have = > been actually married except without the official banns being posted. = > As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the = > third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his = > wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's = > striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the = > German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense = > persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry = > for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', = > 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated = > manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with = > the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that = > secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all = > parallel. =20 > > LH > =09= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 15:05:30 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:05:30 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I vote for "securely". Under the laws of the time, it was possible to > engage in a secret marriage, but the couple was not entitle to > copulate until the marriage was publicly declared. That is Claudio's > issue here -- he is married (upon a true contract...she is fast my > wife), but he also "got possession" of his wife's bed without the > "denunciation ... of outward order". > DanG I guess so; the use just didn't seem to quite fit under the 'secure' entry for "fast", and then there is the curious but maybe just coincidental fact about the German "fast"? LH > > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: a missing "fast"? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last = >> night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond = >> to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, = >> Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical = >> fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by=85well, = >> you'll see: >> >> CLAUDIO: >> Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract >> I got possession of Julietta's bed: >> You know the lady; she is fast my wife, >> Save that we do the denunciation lack >> Of outward order: this we came not to, >> Only for propagation of a dower >> Remaining in the coffer of her friends, >> =46rom whom we thought it meet to hide our love >> Till time had made them for us. But it chances >> The stealth of our most mutual entertainment >> With character too gross is writ on Juliet. >> >> So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have = >> been actually married except without the official banns being posted. = >> As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the = >> third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his = >> wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's = >> striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the = >> German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense = >> persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry = >> for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', = >> 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated = >> manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with = >> the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that = >> secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all = >> parallel. =20 >> >> LH >> =09= >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 15:12:51 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:12:51 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: <201108251505.p7PAwb36021280@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Regarding the German, the cognate for English "fast" is the German "fest". Close enough for government work? DanG On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: a missing "fast"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> I vote for "securely". Under the laws of the time, it was possible to >> engage in a secret marriage, but the couple was not entitle to >> copulate until the marriage was publicly declared. That is Claudio's >> issue here -- he is married (upon a true contract...she is fast my >> wife), but he also "got possession" of his wife's bed without the >> "denunciation ... of outward order". >> DanG > > I guess so; the use just didn't seem to quite fit under the 'secure' entry for "fast", and then there is the curious but maybe just coincidental fact about the German "fast"? > > LH >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: Laurence Horn >>> Subject: a missing "fast"? >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last = >>> night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond = >>> to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, = >>> Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical = >>> fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by=85well, = >>> you'll see: >>> >>> CLAUDIO: >>> Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract >>> I got possession of Julietta's bed: >>> You know the lady; she is fast my wife, >>> Save that we do the denunciation lack >>> Of outward order: this we came not to, >>> Only for propagation of a dower >>> Remaining in the coffer of her friends, >>> =46rom whom we thought it meet to hide our love >>> Till time had made them for us. But it chances >>> The stealth of our most mutual entertainment >>> With character too gross is writ on Juliet. >>> >>> So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have = >>> been actually married except without the official banns being posted. = >>> As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the = >>> third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his = >>> wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's = >>> striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the = >>> German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense = >>> persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry = >>> for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', = >>> 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated = >>> manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with = >>> the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that = >>> secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all = >>> parallel. =20 >>> >>> LH >>> =09= >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL Thu Aug 25 15:47:41 2011 From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill AMRDEC) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:47:41 -0500 Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108250719.p7OKngXY028016@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE You can find cites in _Life_ in Google Books in the 1930s, 40s and 50s. _Billboard_ has it up into the 1960s. > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of > victor steinbok > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 2:19 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------------- > - > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ > - > > This is nothing particularly earth-shattering, but the OED quotations > terminate in the 1870s. > > http://goo.gl/1BCou > Evening Post, Volume CXI, Issue 133, 5 June 1926 > The World Greatest Dancer. Page 9 (last graf) > > > Miss Thursa Rogers, who has made a good reputation in London and Paris as a > > premiere danseuse, lived in Wellington until six years ago. > > > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Caveats: NONE ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 16:29:16 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:29:16 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: <201108251513.p7PAtruY017138@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I'm not sure I see the alternative, but I have no expertise in the matter. OED fast adj.: I. Firm. > 1. a. Firmly fixed in its place; not easily moved or shaken; settled, > stable. Obs. or arch. exc. as said predicatively of something fixed as in a > socket (e.g. a nail, a post), where the sense approaches 4. > b. In immaterial sense; esp. Of a person, his attributes, feelings, etc.: > Not easily turned aside, constant, firm, steadfast. Now only in fast foe > (arch.), fast friend; in the latter the adj. is commonly apprehended in > sense 4. > ... > d. ?Of sleep: Deep, sound, unbroken. Of persons: = fast asleep at sense > 1e. Obs. exc. dial. > e. fast aground, fast ashore: (of a vessel) fixed on the ground, the > shore. fast asleep: fixed in sleep, sound asleep, in a deep sleep.In these > phrases fast seems to have been originally the grammatical predicate; now it > is usually apprehended as an adv. qualifying aground, ashore, asleep. > f. Of a colour: That will not quickly fade or wash out; permanent. Also > fast-colour attrib. > g. fast line (Surveying): see quot. 1807. hard and fast line: see hard and > fast adj. Also, 4. a. Firmly attached to something else; that cannot easily escape or be > extricated; fixed to the spot; lit. and fig. Said both of persons and > things. Given a choice, I would have said it's 4.a., not 1.a. that's in play here (in Measure for Measure). On the other hand, another one from the same period is 1.d. (should be among the quotations too): Beaumont & Fletcher. The Queen of Corinth [1616?] Act 2. Scene 1. > Mer. ... Goodness, hold my hope fast, And in thy mercies look upon my > ruins, And then I am right!--My eyes grow dead and heavy.-- > [Enter six disguised, singing and dancing to a horrid music, and sprinkling > water on her face.] > Wrong me no more, as ye are men! [Faints.] > The. She is fast! > Cra. Away with her! [Exeunt, bearing her off. ] ... Scene 3. > [Enter THEANOR, CRATES, and ERATON carrying MERIONE.] > Era. This is her brother's door. > Cra. There lay her down, then; > Lay her along. She is fast still? > Era. As forgetfulness. > Cra. Be not you stirr'd now, but away to your mother; > Give all attendance; let no stain appear > Of fear or doubt in your face; carry yourself confidently. Then, there's Massinger, who also uses 4.a., but in a more literal sense ("bind fast"). Philip Massinger The Bashful Lover. [1655] Act 3. Scene 3. > Pisan. What shall we do? Or end our Difference in killing her, Or fight it out? > Alon. To the last Gasp. I feel The moist Tears on my Cheeks, and blush to find A Vijgin's Plaints can move so. > Pisan. To prevent Her Flight while we contend, let's bind her fast To this Cypress-Tree. > Alon. Agreed. > Matil. It does presage > My Funeral Rites. > Gal. I shall turn Atheist, > If Heaven see and suffer this. Why did I > Abandon my good Sword? with unarm'd Hands > I cannot rescue her. Some Angel pluck. me > From the Apostacy I'm falling to, > And by a Miracle lend me a Weapon > To underprop falling Honour. > Pisan. She is fast, > Resume your Arms. > Alon. Honour, Revenge, the Maid too Lie at the Stake. I just don't see it. The Measure for Measure use seems to be straight match for 4.a. VS-) On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > Regarding the German, the cognate for English "fast" is the German "fest". > > Close enough for government work? > > DanG ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 16:31:47 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 12:31:47 -0400 Subject: danseuse [post-dating 1878 --> 1926] (UNCLASSIFIED) In-Reply-To: <201108251548.p7PAnSvU031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I did not mean to imply exclusivity--simply closing a 50 year gap. I'm sure it was in use for at least another 50 after that. VS-) On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC < Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote: > > > You can find cites in _Life_ in Google Books in the 1930s, 40s and 50s. > _Billboard_ has it up into the 1960s. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 17:09:55 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:09:55 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] Message-ID: Mid-twenty-ish, white male speaker: "I come home and all of my cosmetics [Springer, remember?] are _strewn_ [stroUn] all over the place ?!" This is the first time that I've heard this pronunciation by anyone not a black person in or from Marshall, TX. I think! Of course, as long as I was unaware of any other possible pronunciation, use of this pronunciation by other people wouldn't have registered. And, IME, _strew[n]_, regardless of pronunciation, don't be falling trippingly from no whole lot of tongues. So, Youneverknow. I've long had the feeling that, in some cases, _done_ is the ghost of _have done_. But I couldn't recall with any certainty that I'd ever heard the "full" form used, except in my own mind. Here of late, though, I've heard it many times from the lips both of black speakers and of white speakers on the Springer Show, as in: "That's a damn *lie*! I _*have*_ done did that!" "She's right. _I've_ done called her that numerous of times." BTW, does anyone else have the impression that stuff comes and goes? At one time, the airwaves were swamped with people saying "forMIDable." Then, it just went away. Now, I've begun to hear it again, from time to time, as FORmidable," the same pronunciation as was used, IIRC, before the word had its fifteen minutes of fame. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 17:22:30 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:22:30 -0400 Subject: a missing "fast"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, one issue I had was whether "fast" in "She is fast my wife" is really an adjective in the first place. I'd have thought it's an adverb. In "bind her fast", "hold X fast", etc. I have no problem diagnosing a 4a adjectival use, but "fast my wife" seems different. No ordinary adjectives appear in the frame "She is ____ my wife". Now "She is fast, my wife", that *would* be possible?but different. "She is securely my wife, save that..." is more or less possible, though, with FAST adv. 2a, as in 1850 E. B. Browning Rom. Page, And wedded fast were we. LH On Aug 25, 2011, at 12:29 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > I'm not sure I see the alternative, but I have no expertise in the matter. > OED fast adj.: > > I. Firm. >> 1. a. Firmly fixed in its place; not easily moved or shaken; settled, >> stable. Obs. or arch. exc. as said predicatively of something fixed as in a >> socket (e.g. a nail, a post), where the sense approaches 4. >> b. In immaterial sense; esp. Of a person, his attributes, feelings, etc.: >> Not easily turned aside, constant, firm, steadfast. Now only in fast foe >> (arch.), fast friend; in the latter the adj. is commonly apprehended in >> sense 4. >> ... >> d. ?Of sleep: Deep, sound, unbroken. Of persons: = fast asleep at sense >> 1e. Obs. exc. dial. >> e. fast aground, fast ashore: (of a vessel) fixed on the ground, the >> shore. fast asleep: fixed in sleep, sound asleep, in a deep sleep.In these >> phrases fast seems to have been originally the grammatical predicate; now it >> is usually apprehended as an adv. qualifying aground, ashore, asleep. >> f. Of a colour: That will not quickly fade or wash out; permanent. Also >> fast-colour attrib. >> g. fast line (Surveying): see quot. 1807. hard and fast line: see hard and >> fast adj. > > > Also, > > 4. a. Firmly attached to something else; that cannot easily escape or be >> extricated; fixed to the spot; lit. and fig. Said both of persons and >> things. > > > > Given a choice, I would have said it's 4.a., not 1.a. that's in play here > (in Measure for Measure). > > On the other hand, another one from the same period is 1.d. (should be among > the quotations too): > > Beaumont & Fletcher. > The Queen of Corinth [1616?] > Act 2. Scene 1. > >> Mer. ... Goodness, hold my hope fast, And in thy mercies look upon my >> ruins, And then I am right!--My eyes grow dead and heavy.-- >> [Enter six disguised, singing and dancing to a horrid music, and sprinkling >> water on her face.] >> Wrong me no more, as ye are men! [Faints.] >> The. She is fast! >> Cra. Away with her! [Exeunt, bearing her off. ] > > ... > Scene 3. > >> [Enter THEANOR, CRATES, and ERATON carrying MERIONE.] >> Era. This is her brother's door. >> Cra. There lay her down, then; >> Lay her along. She is fast still? >> Era. As forgetfulness. >> Cra. Be not you stirr'd now, but away to your mother; >> Give all attendance; let no stain appear >> Of fear or doubt in your face; carry yourself confidently. > > > > Then, there's Massinger, who also uses 4.a., but in a more literal sense > ("bind fast"). > > Philip Massinger > The Bashful Lover. [1655] > Act 3. Scene 3. > >> Pisan. What shall we do? > > Or end our > > Difference in killing her, Or fight it out? >> Alon. To the last Gasp. I feel The moist > > Tears on my Cheeks, and blush to find > > A Vijgin's Plaints can move so. >> Pisan. To prevent > > Her Flight while we contend, let's bind her fast > > To this Cypress-Tree. >> Alon. Agreed. >> Matil. It does presage >> My Funeral Rites. >> Gal. I shall turn Atheist, >> If Heaven see and suffer this. Why did I >> Abandon my good Sword? with unarm'd Hands >> I cannot rescue her. Some Angel pluck. me >> From the Apostacy I'm falling to, >> And by a Miracle lend me a Weapon >> To underprop falling Honour. >> Pisan. She is fast, >> Resume your Arms. >> Alon. Honour, Revenge, the Maid too Lie at the Stake. > > > > I just don't see it. The Measure for Measure use seems to be straight match > for 4.a. > > VS-) > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> >> Regarding the German, the cognate for English "fast" is the German "fest". >> >> Close enough for government work? >> >> DanG > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 17:39:59 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:39:59 -0400 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle Message-ID: http://shine.yahoo.com/event/fallfashion/grammar-fail-on-old-navys-college-t-shirts-uh-oh-2531551/ (Note: Heading is intended as irony.) JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 25 17:59:57 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:59:57 -0400 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/25/2011 01:39 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >http://shine.yahoo.com/event/fallfashion/grammar-fail-on-old-navys-college-t-shirts-uh-oh-2531551/ > >(Note: Heading is intended as irony.) Thanks. I missed this when it went by on the TV news yesterday. But I would only admit two of the four institutes specifically named to the rank of "higher learning". Joel Berson Degree graduate from two real institutes of higher learning >JL > >-- >"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 19:55:45 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:55:45 -0400 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle In-Reply-To: <201108251800.p7PG8wXS031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > two real institutes of higher learning MIT and Harvard. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Thu Aug 25 21:44:36 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:44:36 -0400 Subject: Red state, blue state Message-ID: On Hurricane Irene today -- Governor Bev Perdue* of North Carolina: "Prepare for the worst and pray for the best." Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York: "We hope for the best but we prepare for the worst." (Entrepreneur Arthur Perdue: "The sky is falling, the sky is falling.") * Although a Democrat, possibly looking to retain crossover Republican voters. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 25 22:00:49 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:00:49 -0700 Subject: Apostrophe Debacle In-Reply-To: <201108251800.p7PAwbKG021280@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: There seems to be two meanings of "higher learning," one meaning "tertiary education" and the other meaning "lofty education." Is that right? I don't find a definition on Wiktionary, but the OED has this for "academic": "a. Of or belonging to an academy or institution for higher learning; hence, collegiate, scholarly." Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA On Aug 25, 2011, at 10:59 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/25/2011 01:39 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >> http://shine.yahoo.com/event/fallfashion/grammar-fail-on-old-navys-college-t-shirts-uh-oh-2531551/ >> >> (Note: Heading is intended as irony.) > > Thanks. I missed this when it went by on the TV news yesterday. > > But I would only admit two of the four institutes specifically named > to the rank of "higher learning". > > Joel Berson > Degree graduate from two real institutes of higher learning ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 25 22:51:08 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:51:08 -0400 Subject: WOTY candidate: "spaghetti model" Message-ID: Not a model who's as thin as spaghetti, or one who eats it, but one of the models of the possible tracks for Hurricane Irene as it proceeds up the East Coast. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Thu Aug 25 23:39:26 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:39:26 -0400 Subject: WOTY candidate: "spaghetti model" In-Reply-To: <201108252251.p7PJNvwG031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > Not a model who's as thin as spaghetti, or one who eats > it, but one of the models of the possible tracks for Hurricane > Irene as it proceeds up the East Coast. There is a website that displays "Spaghetti Plots & Charts" for hurricanes called spaghettimodels.com. The name was registered in 2006, but the website may have been used for some other purpose in the past: Domain Name.......... spaghettimodels.com Creation Date........ 2006-08-31 Registration Date.... 2006-08-31 Mike's Weather Page Spaghetti Models Plots: Updated Computer Models / Spaghetti Plots & Charts Google Books has a volume with an unverified 2008 date that uses "spaghetti models" to refer to the display of information from computer models of hurricanes. Title The social construction of a special needs program for hurricanes Authors Robert E. Tabler (Jr), University of South Florida Publisher ProQuest, 2008 According to Participant 13, the new radar being used by the weather stations, are really good at showing where a storm is going. He also thinks that the spaghetti models are ?confusing as hell? and that the cone model is easier to follow. GB has earlier examples of "spaghetti models" referring to computer models and computer programs, but the instances I quickly looked at were not connected to representing hurricane tracks. Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Aug 26 12:59:53 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:59:53 +0100 Subject: Nounjective? Message-ID: It's not every year I discover a new part of speech. Colour me ignorant if "nounjective" is a well-known term. If someone would tell me where this rather disparaging term for what I'd call the attributive use of a noun comes from, I'd be deeply grateful. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From nancyf at WORDWORKING.COM Fri Aug 26 13:19:05 2011 From: nancyf at WORDWORKING.COM (Nancy Friedman) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 06:19:05 -0700 Subject: a missing "fast"? Message-ID: A little late to this (I get the digest). I wondered about a connection to "handfasting," from Middle English "hondfesten," "to betroth." A couple of years ago I went to a wedding that included a handfasting ceremony: http://nancyfriedman.typepad.com/away_with_words/2009/08/word-of-the-week-ha ndfasting.html Nancy _______ Word of the week: Kinsley gaffe. http://nancyfriedman.typepad.com Nancy Friedman web www.wordworking.com blog http://nancyfriedman.typepad.com Top 10 Language Professionals Blog 2011 http://bit.ly/kHCN6u tel 510 652-4159 cel 510 304-3953 fax 866 871-1523 Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/Fritinancy -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:33 AM Subject: a missing "fast"? Just saw a production of "Measure for Measure" in the park here last night and was struck by a use of _fast_ that doesn't seem to correspond to any of the entries under the adverbial FAST in the OED. The speaker, Claudio, has just been condemned to death by Angelo, the puritanical fill-in chief of state in Vienna, for fornication, as revealed by.well, you'll see: CLAUDIO: Thus stands it with me: upon a true contract I got possession of Julietta's bed: You know the lady; she is fast my wife, Save that we do the denunciation lack Of outward order: this we came not to, Only for propagation of a dower Remaining in the coffer of her friends, >From whom we thought it meet to hide our love Till time had made them for us. But it chances The stealth of our most mutual entertainment With character too gross is writ on Juliet. So they were affianced or common-law-married partners who would have been actually married except without the official banns being posted. As far as I can tell, when Claudio says "she is fast my wife" in the third line, he means that Juliet is almost, nearly, or virtually his wife. But as noted, this isn't in the OED entry for FAST, adv. What's striking is that this is precisely the main (or only?) sense of the German word _fast_. Is this just a coincidence, or did that sense persist into Early Modern English as well, in which case why no subentry for it along with those for 'fixedly', 'diligently', 'vigorously', 'securely', 'strictly', 'rapidly', 'immediately', and 'in a dissipated manner'? Or is Claudio's use somehow an instance of 'securely' (with the "save" clause marking the way in which the bond isn't all that secure)? None of the relevant cites at that subentry really seem at all parallel. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 13:59:01 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:59:01 -0400 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: <4E5798C9.6933.13B18E3@wordseditor.worldwidewords.org> Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 8:59 AM, Michael Quinion wrote: > It's not every year I discover a new part of speech. Colour me ignorant if > "nounjective" is a well-known term. If someone would tell me where this > rather disparaging term for what I'd call the attributive use of a noun > comes from, I'd be deeply grateful. > and why "substantive" wasn't good enough for the purpose LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 15:02:47 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:02:47 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 24, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/more-egotism/ > > ?????????????????????????????? In the above post, Arnold characterizes the new pattern as "[reversed] substitute OLD for NEW instead of the older (and still standard) argument structure [standard] substitute NEW for OLD" I don't think we've discussed the intransitive counterpart, but I heard an intransitive reversed "substitute" on the radio this morning. Former star receiver Cris Carter, now an ESPN commentator on football matters, was on Mike & Mike in the Morning on ESPN radio discussing the possible impact on the Colts' season if the injury sidelining their superstar quarterback Peyton Manning persists. As Carter said of Manning, "If you substitute him?", you're bound to lose a lot (I wrote down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap, but I'm sure about the antecedent. For those of us still stuck with the older model of lexicon/syntax, that would have to be either "If you substitute for him" or "If you replace him?" to get the intended meaning; "If you substitute him" could only refer to the replacement. I tried googling "if you substitute him" and found this example of essentially the same structure but referring to the other kind of football. I assume the writer (on a Manchester City soccer blog) is from the U.K., whether or not the picture is a clue, but youneverknow. Anyway, if you work through BlueAnorak's quarrel with the Manchester City manager, he's saying the team gets worse when they "substitute" Elano, i.e. when they take him off the pitch (is that the right term?) and replace him with a substitute. This is the same point Carter was making about Manning, although *that* opinion is about as uncontroversial as they come. LH ======================================= http://www.wookieslair.com/node/3686 According to todays press, Hughes is demanding Micah and Elano step up to the plate... Sorry Hughes We know you don't like Elano. But when you substitute him, as you regularly do, do we look better or do we get far worse and look more likely to concede as a result? Evidence indicates that the later applies. Not Elano's fault then... ? Got to say it I'm just so disapointed with you as a manager. What was good last season (our defending) has turned to garbage before our very eyes. Seemingly you have no answer to the problems. You have implemented changes to our defending that simply don't work and your substitutions stink the place out. So actually, I think it's time for YOU to step up to the plate. Manchester City - Ruining Football since 2008 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG Fri Aug 26 15:41:25 2011 From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:41:25 +0100 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > and why "substantive" wasn't good enough for the purpose The term implies a noun being used as an adjective, frequently as a dismissive epithet. This is the example I came across that provoked my enquiry (there are numerous others online but none that I can find in printed works): 2011 Observer (London) 21 Aug. (New Review section) 25/1 Now the first parts of the first phase of its makeover by the Mancunian developers Urban Splash, to whom the nounjective `hipster? tends to attach itself, is nearly complete. -- Michael Quinion Editor, World Wide Words Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From sagehen7470 at ATT.NET Fri Aug 26 17:39:33 2011 From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET (Alison Murie) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:39:33 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108251710.p7PG8wJ0031408@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 25, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > BTW, does anyone else have the impression that stuff comes and goes? > At one time, the airwaves were swamped with people saying > "forMIDable." Then, it just went away. Now, I've begun to hear it > again, from time to time, as FORmidable," the same pronunciation as > was used, IIRC, before the word had its fifteen minutes of fame. > > -- > -Wilson Yes, I've registered the same thing & have the impression that it's just one among many such examples. Can't bring any to mind just now.. AM ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 26 18:11:40 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:11:40 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261739.p7QAlSoR002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Alison Murie wrote: > > On Aug 25, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > > BTW, does anyone else have the impression that stuff comes and goes? > > At one time, the airwaves were swamped with people saying > > "forMIDable." Then, it just went away. Now, I've begun to hear it > > again, from time to time, as FORmidable," the same pronunciation as > > was used, IIRC, before the word had its fifteen minutes of fame. > > > Yes, I've registered the same thing & have the impression that it's > just one among many such examples. Can't bring any to mind just now.. Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, "Formidable Opponent": http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan (That segment also has the blend "incompetlicit" -- "incompetent" + "complicit".) --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 18:42:33 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:42:33 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) Message-ID: The "amateur" is Keith Humphries of RBC blog: http://goo.gl/99OoC > Listening just now to a radio report of the counter-clockwise spinning > Irene hurricane called to mind a night some years ago when I was lost in the > Surrey darkness, trying to find the house of an English friend. My friend > called me and said that I had made a mistake by turning left at the ring > road, where I should have instead traveled ?anti-clockwise?. > I was surprised at the term, which I had never heard before. Its meaning is > transparent on its face, but what threw me off was that my friend didn?t use > my mother?s word ?widdershins?, which I knew came from her UK ancestors. To > them, widdershins meant particularly walking around a church with the wall > always to one?s left rather than right, which could bring the devil?s curse > of bad luck. Compare OED: withershins | widdershins, adv. > Forms: 15? widder-, 16? wither-, (15 widdir-, weddir-, wod(d)er-, 15, 18 > wooder-); 15?18 -sins, 15? -shins, (15 -syns, -shynes, -shynnis, -son(n)is, > 15, 18 -sinnis, -sones, 16 -shines, 18 -schynnes).... (Show More) > Etymology: < Middle Low German weddersin(ne)s (compare wedersins > ?contrario modo?, Kilian), < Middle High German widersinnes, < wider-wither- > prefix + genitive of sin (especially Middle German) = sind, sint way, > direction (see sithe n.1): compare Middle High German widersinnen to return. > In sense 2 associated with son, sun n.1... (Show Less) > dial. (chiefly Sc.). > ?1. In a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way; to stand or start > withershins , (of the hair) to ?stand on end?. Obs. > 2. In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun (considered > as unlucky or causing disaster). > withershin(s) | widdershin(s), adj. > Etymology: < withershins adv. > Moving in an anticlockwise direction, contrary to the apparent course of > the sun (considered as unlucky or sinister); unlucky, ill-fated, relating to > the occult. Note "anti-clockwise" both in the adj. lemma and in the blog post. Anti-clockwise has examples from 1898 to 1927, but that's still not as out-of-date as counter-clockwise, which only has two--1888 and 1890. GB search for {anticloskwise | "anti-clockwise"} <1898 returns 272 raw ghits, 52 raw for <1888, 12 actual, including three spuriously tagged and 9 math texts. http://goo.gl/kzjBv Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Volume 29. June 19, 1879 On the Secular Effects of Tidal Friction. By G. H. Darwin. pp. 176-7 > i. Then in fig. 1, for all points of the line of momentum from C through E > to infinity, /x/ is negative and /y/ is positive; therefore this indicates > an anti-clockwise revolution of the satellite, and a clockwise rotation of > the planet, but the m. of m. planetary rotation is greater than that of the > orbital motion. > ... > ii. For all points of the line of momentum from D through F to infinity, > /x/ is positive and /y/ is negative; therefore the motion of the satellite > is clockwise, and that of the planetary rotation anti-clockwise, but the m. > of m. of the orbital motion is greater than that of the planetary rotation. One of the other hits (1939) is a dictionary that lists sinister==climbing anti-clockwise. Similar search for counterclockwise yields 331 raw ghits <1888, 9 <1877, including 7 spuriously tagged. The remaining 2 are from the same year. http://goo.gl/rLwaK Principles of Mechanism. 2nd ed. By Robert Willis. London: 1870 p. 158 > Consequently if the screw be left handed, it must be turned counter > clockwise to enter a fixed nut, or put a movable nut in action upon the > extremity of its screw. p. 233 > Thus a series of points is obtained through which the curves can be drawn > as in Fig. 228 and theoretically they satisfy the condition of equalising > the velocity of the reciprocating piece. If the lower curve, which is the > driver, be rotated counter-clockwise its increasing radii will enable it > to press against the decreasing radii of the follower until the concave > salient point which terminates the long diameter of the driver is brought > into contact with /b/. p. 428 > We have already seen that the arrangement of the cord /DW/ prevents the > cylinder from revolving counter-clockwise, and leaves it free to be turned > the reverse way, while on the other hand the motion given by raising and > lowering the knob *G *grasps the cylinder and communicates rotation to it. > As this rotation is in the direction of the clock, when the knob is raised > the cord *BW *serves merely to steady the motion. http://goo.gl/jvJPb Geometric Optics. By Osmund Airy. London: 1870 p. 18 > For convenience the algebraic sign of the moment is said to be /positive/ > when the moment tends to turn the body in a direction /counter-clockwise/, > and /negative/ when it tends to turn the body in the /clockwise/ direction. pp. 51-2 > 30. ... If the couple tends to produce rotation in the clockwise > direction, the moment is said to be negative; and if counterclockwise, > positive. > 31. Representation of Couples. -- The couple involves magnitude (moment) > and direction (rotation), and may, therefore, be represented by an arrow, > the length of the line being proportional to the moment of the couple, and > the arrow indicating the direction of rotation. In order to make the matter > of direction of rotation clear, the agreement is made that the arrow be > drawn perpendicular to the plane of the couple on that side from which the > rotation appears counter-clockwise. > 32. ... The moment arrow of the resultant couple will be perpendicular to > the cover of the book and on the side from which the rotation appears > counter-clockwise. ... p. 169 > Angular velocity involves a magnitude and a direction, and may, therefore, > be represented by an arrow (see Fig. 119), the length of the arrow > representing the magnitude and drawn perpendicular to the plane of motion > such that if you look along the arrow, from its point, the motion appears > positive or negative; positive if counter-clockwise and negative if > clockwise. Both conventions (left-handed screw==counter-clockwise; positive direction of rotation==counter-clockwise) are fairly standard today, so it's interesting to find both in the same year, but it is doubtful either one is original. In fact, I am absolutely shocked that there is nothing in GB earlier than 1870 for either term. No point post-dating either one, as they are quite common (well, one more than the other). In any case, both need updated quotations on both ends. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 18:49:42 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:49:42 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261821.p7QAlSwF002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Same in David Lynch's Dune: "You'll make a FORmidable Duke." Did that line come from Patrick Stewart (Gurney Halleck)? I don't recall, at the moment, but it's early in the film, so easy to find. If it's a Pond-crossing difference, it might account for Colbert's pronunciation as put-on haughtiness. VS-) On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, > "Formidable Opponent": > > > http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan > > (That segment also has the blend "incompetlicit" -- "incompetent" + > "complicit".) > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 20:09:49 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:09:49 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261849.p7QAlS23002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My memory is playing tricks on me--it's been too long since I've seen the film. The line, in fact, puts the stress on the second syllable and is uttered by Freddie Jones (Thufir) @16:13 (theatrical release) or 26:45 (the long TV version). My apologies for the error. VS-) On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:49 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > > Same in David Lynch's Dune: > > "You'll make a FORmidable Duke." > > Did that line come from Patrick Stewart (Gurney Halleck)? I don't recall, > at > the moment, but it's early in the film, so easy to find. If it's a > Pond-crossing difference, it might account for Colbert's pronunciation as > put-on haughtiness. > > VS-) > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > > > > Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, > > "Formidable Opponent": > > > > > > > http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/391148/june-30-2011/colbert-report--formidable-opponent---pakistan > > > > (That segment also has the blend "incompetlicit" -- "incompetent" + > > "complicit".) > > > > --bgz > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 20:33:45 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:33:45 -0400 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: <201108261541.p7QAlSc3002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here are two examples of nounjective. The date stamp on the first is from the sciforums.com website, and I do not know about its reliability. There is an earlier match in 2004 in the Google Groups indexer but the context was not clear to me. sciforums.com Why Bush&Cheney can not destroy Clarke Don Hakman 03-29-04, 11:58 AM The bottom line message being screamed is that Clarke is not likeable. His name is hardly ever used without adjectives like arrogant, selfish, whining, inconsistent liar and now the 'nounjective' Judas. http://www.sciforums.com/Why-Bush-Cheney-can-not-destroy-Clarke-t-34334.html Newsgroups: sci.lang.translation From: John Woodgate Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:28:18 +0000 Local: Fri, Feb 10 2006 4:28 am Subject: Re: Eng. to French: "Submit forms" It's another example of a 'nounjective' - noun used as adjective. I would say 'via submission forms', which still has a nounjective but I think it's acceptable, and certainly easier to understand. http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang.translation/msg/96dd533779505545 On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Michael Quinion wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Michael Quinion > Organization: World Wide Words > Subject: Re: Nounjective? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Laurence Horn wrote: > >> and why "substantive" wasn't good enough for the purpose > > The term implies a noun being used as an adjective, frequently as a > dismissive epithet. This is the example I came across that provoked my > enquiry (there are numerous others online but none that I can find in > printed works): > > 2011 Observer (London) 21 Aug. (New Review section) 25/1 Now the first > parts of the first phase of its makeover by the Mancunian developers Urban > Splash, to whom the nounjective `hipster? tends to attach itself, is > nearly complete. > > -- > Michael Quinion > Editor, World Wide Words > Web: http://www.worldwidewords.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 20:41:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:41:22 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108261821.p7QAlSwF002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, > "Formidable Opponent": > Very likely, it's Colbert's usage that has motivated me to ponder this, one of the questions of the ages.;-) Those of a certain age have fond memories of the late, great French actress, Claudette Colbair. _Colbert_ is a fairly common surname amongst the colored. When I discovered that Stephen is a native of South carolina, I ceased to wonder how that came to be the case. Among the black families that I know, some use the ordinary-English spelling pronunciation, others the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation. IMO, the use of the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation is an an affectation. Of course, there's no cool way to question anyone about that. So, Youneverknow. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 21:00:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:00:04 -0400 Subject: Nounjective? In-Reply-To: <201108262034.p7QB4Op0002345@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Garson O'Toole quoted: > 'nounjective' - noun used as adjective Surely, the jargon of the field of linguistics *cries out* for the addition of this term! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 21:31:16 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:31:16 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <201108261502.p7QAna9V009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > "If you substitute him=85", you're bound to lose a lot (I wrote = > down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap _"If you substitute him", you're bound to lose a lot."_ For me, this is totally transparent. I have no problem seeing the ghost of [someone else for]. OTOH, it's annoying to have to wrestle the other structure to the ground in order to force it to reveal its hidden semantic structure. _I wrote down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap._ Surely, you couldn't have been anticipating another, different outcome, in such a case!;-) Though, at the time, it must have felt like only the sensible thing to do, of course. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 21:45:36 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:45:36 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ Message-ID: >From the Sophos eNews newsletter: _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your smartphone? My spellcheck is familiar with only with only _hijacking, carjacking_, and oddly, _clickjacking_. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gcohen at MST.EDU Fri Aug 26 21:59:05 2011 From: gcohen at MST.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:59:05 -0500 Subject: Query: Source of a Roman Jakobson quote Message-ID: I'm trying to find a reference for the following quote of the eminent linguist Roman Jakobson: "A bad theory leads to a better theory. The absence of a theory leads to nothing." Would anyone perhaps know or be able to furnish a lead? G. Cohen ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 22:38:35 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:38:35 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> "If you substitute him=85", you're bound to lose a lot (I wrote = >> down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap > > _"If you substitute him", you're bound to lose a lot."_ > > For me, this is totally transparent. I have no problem seeing the > ghost of [someone else for]. OTOH, it's annoying to have to wrestle > the other structure to the ground in order to force it to reveal its > hidden semantic structure. > > _I wrote down the full conditional but of course misplaced the scrap._ > > Surely, you couldn't have been anticipating another, different > outcome, in such a case!;-) Though, at the time, it must have > felt like only the sensible thing to do, of course. > > -- > -Wilson Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly it's the latter that was intended. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 26 22:54:17 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:54:17 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 5:45 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >> From the Sophos eNews newsletter: > > _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk > You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and > _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, > _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes > _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your > smartphone? > > > My spellcheck is familiar with only with only _hijacking, carjacking_, > and oddly, _clickjacking_. > Isn't clickjacking what the Southern Bantu languages did to those poor Khoisan languages (we used to call them Hottentot and Bushman, but I know more correct labels have now been affixed, probably bearing those -jacked clicks. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Fri Aug 26 23:04:06 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:04:06 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ In-Reply-To: <201108262146.p7QB4Oss002345@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Clickjacking is the use of a script overlayed on a frame on a web page--when you click on the buttons in the frame, it leads to undesirable results. The word appears frequently if you install NoScript extension in Firefox or Chrome. One of the names for the NOTW scandal was "phone jacking". There are other uses of phone-jacking. One I've spotted recently was using a cell phone to take a photo of a credit card while standing next to the register in a store or video recording someone entering the passkey at an ATM. I've spotted "Blue-jacking"--getting access to an unprotected phone or laptop via BlueTooth. Side-jacking is one of the names for swiping information off smartcards via RFID access. A.K.A. "I-jacking" (identity jacking). Cookie-jacking is to cookies what click-jacking is to clicks. lo-jacking is the opposite kind of jacking--associated with "LoJack". One page I spotted mentions "lo-jacking your dog". Card jacking--stealing credit card information as an extension of authorized access, e.g., by waitstaff at a restaurant. Also occasionally refers to what's listed above as phone-jacking. Seat-jacking is actually a very common bike crime (stealing quick-release seats), but some people use the expression for other purposes. VS-) On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > From the Sophos eNews newsletter: > > _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk > You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and > _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, > _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes > _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your > smartphone? > > > My spellcheck is familiar with only with only _hijacking, carjacking_, > and oddly, _clickjacking_. > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Fri Aug 26 23:53:32 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:53:32 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 06:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you >substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I >usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only >process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not >"If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly >it's the latter that was intended. 1) Why is this intransitive? 2) I also believe I've heard it on soccer ... er, football ... broadcasts. "Pele is being substituted" meaning "A substitute is coming in for Pele." Since this seems the passive to me, wouldn't the usage be transitive? That is, "him" in "When you substitute him" is the object of the verb. (In "substitute for him", it's the object of a preposition.) Or is my grammatical analysis defective? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Fri Aug 26 23:46:53 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:46:53 -0400 Subject: _-jacking_ In-Reply-To: <201108262146.p7QB4Oss002345@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > From the Sophos eNews newsletter: > > _Juicejacking_ - an emergency phone charge can be a security risk > You've heard of _hijacking_. And _carjacking_, _truckjacking_ and > _shipjacking_. You've probably also heard of _sidejacking_, > _sheepjacking_, and _clickjacking_. That's nothing. Here comes > _juicejacking_! Do you take enough care about where you power-up your > smartphone? And let's not forget "swagger-jacking": http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0810C&L=ADS-L&P=R2124 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 00:02:41 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 20:02:41 -0400 Subject: Secret erotic life of lexicographers (Noah Webster 1896) (Samuel Johnson 1906) Message-ID: Cite: 1896 April 21, Daily Iowa Capital, A New One by Chauncey, Page 6, Column 5, Des Moines, Iowa. (NewspaperArchive) At a recent dinner in New York a new story was sprung by Chauncey M. Depew. Speaking of the importance of humor, Mr. Depew declared that Noah Webster, though a lexicographer, was humorist. "His wife," Chauncey went on to say, "caught him one day kissing the cook. "'Noah,' she exclaimed, 'I'm surprised!' "'Madam,' he replied, 'you have not studied carefully our glorious language. It is I who am surprised. You are astounded.'" In 1903 an attempt was made to cover up the scandal with an odd report in a popular periodical. Cite: 1903 September, Everybody's Magazine, With "Everybody's" Publishers, A Surprising Letter, Page 419, Column 2, Volume 9, The Ridgway-Thayer Company, New York. (Google Books full view) A story is told of Noah Webster, the dictionary maker, who one day was found by his wife at dinner without coat or collar while entertaining two guests. His wife's sudden and unexpected return and entrance to the room brought those present to their feet. "I am surprised," said Mrs. Webster, And Mr. Webster rejoined, "My dear, I am surprised?you are astonished." http://books.google.com/books?id=mG0XAQAAIAAJ&q=%22or+collar%22#v=snippet& Remarkably, Dr. Johnson was also caught in flagrante delicto; however, the anecdote about the event was inexplicably delayed for more than a century. Cite: 1906 January, Midland Druggist [Interstate Druggist], Sense and Nonsense, Page 446, Column 1, Volume 7, Number 5, Midland Publishing Company, Columbus, Ohio. (Google Books full view) The famous Dr. Johnson was discovered one day by Mrs. Johnson kissing one of her serving maids. "Why, Dr. Johnson," said his wife, "I am surprised." "No," said the recreant husband,"that is not exactly right dear. I am surprised; you are astonished!" http://books.google.com/books?id=bclNAAAAMAAJ&q=recreant#v=snippet& Garson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 01:37:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 21:37:56 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <201108262353.p7QNrYtS026229@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 7:53 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > At 8/26/2011 06:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you >> substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I >> usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only >> process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not >> "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly >> it's the latter that was intended. > > 1) Why is this intransitive? Good point. I guess I was thinking in terms of my own dialect, in which the direct object of "substitute" is always the new quarterback, not the outgoing one. So a transitive "The Colts substituted Manning (for X)" would contrast with an intransitive "The Colts substituted (X for) Manning", where I'd have to say "The Colts substituted for Manning", which of course *would* be intransitive (unless you take "substitute for" to be a complex transitive predicate). But you're right in that for the speakers of the new dialect like Cris Carter, the direct object of "substitute" is the one who is replaced. It's really a difference in argument structure or meaning rather than one of transitivity. > > 2) I also believe I've heard it on soccer ... er, football ... > broadcasts. "Pele is being substituted" meaning "A substitute is > coming in for Pele." My second example, from the web, was indeed from a soccer context, but it wasn't passive. Again, my passive here (or what's sometimes called a pseudo-passive or prepositional passive) would have to be "Pele is being substituted for". > > Since this seems the passive to me, wouldn't the usage be > transitive? That is, "him" in "When you substitute him" is the > object of the verb. (In "substitute for him", it's the object of a > preposition.) Or is my grammatical analysis defective? > No, as mentioned, it's just a matter of my accepting that the replacement can be the direct object of "substitute"; I grant that that's a case of my narrowness; both lexical frames allow "The Colts substituted Manning", it's just a question of whether Manning has just run onto the field (my dialect) or off it (Carter's). Or perhaps there are speakers for whom it's simply ambiguous. I have to grant that "They substituted him" is just as transitive for the speakers of the other dialect as "They replaced him" is for me. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Aug 27 02:31:24 2011 From: dbarnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (David Barnhart) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 22:31:24 -0400 Subject: noun attributive Message-ID: This seems like the logical, historical, and adequate term to me. Regards in advance of Irene (for those of you who are about to be visited), DKB Barnhart at highlands.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 03:04:18 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:04:18 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 26, 2011, at 4:41 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: >> Stephen Colbert, FWIW, says "FORmidable" in his recurring self-debate, >> "Formidable Opponent": >> > > Very likely, it's Colbert's usage that has motivated me to ponder > this, one of the questions of the ages.;-) > > Those of a certain age have fond memories of the late, great French > actress, Claudette Colbair. > > _Colbert_ is a fairly common surname amongst the colored. When I > discovered that Stephen is a native of South carolina, I ceased to > wonder how that came to be the case. > > Among the black families that I know, some use the ordinary-English > spelling pronunciation, others the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation. IMO, > the use of the pswaydo-Freynch pronunciation is an an affectation. Of > course, there's no cool way to question anyone about that. So, > > Youneverknow. And for Claudette Colbert the "bare" pronunciation was no pswaydo affectation; she was actually French, although I never noticed an accent. I see from Wikipedia that her family emigrated here when she was three, which I guess explains that. She had a great voice in any case, and was very funny, but then I'm prejudiced, since she was one of the actresses I had a crush on. LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 03:10:22 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:10:22 -0400 Subject: noun attributive In-Reply-To: <201108270231.p7QJWNPf002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:31 PM, David Barnhart wrote: > > This seems like the logical, historical, and adequate term to me. > > Regards in advance of Irene (for those of you who are about to be visited), "Different strokes," etc.;-) Apparently, for those of us residing in NE PA, Irene will *not* be the second coming of 1972's Hurricane Agnes, when floodwaters of the Susquehanna rose to four feet on the *second* floor of my wife's family manse, leading to the loss of her high school yearbook and the demise of Daphne, the family kitty, among other tragedies. Astoundingly, the house itself *survived* and is now occupied by the current patriarch and his family. I was at Chapel Hill at the time. I recall that there was hella rain, but not a whole lot of damage there. Can I get a witness, Ron? BTW, a preacher "gets a witness" when at least one member of the congregation responds with "Amen [,e:'mAn]!" "Can I get a 'Amen!'?!" and "Say 'Amen!'(, somebody)!" are variants. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain Your HTML signature here ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 03:12:29 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:12:29 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No mention of the opposite of withershins/widdershins in any of the below, viz. "deasil" (= 'with the apparent direction of the sun', i.e. clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere). Note that "widdershins" and "deasil" are respectively clockwise and counter-clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere, assuming that one's analog clocks go in the same direction there as they do here. In another generation, nobody will know what counter- (or anti-)clockwise refers to. LH On Aug 26, 2011, at 2:42 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > The "amateur" is Keith Humphries of RBC blog: > > http://goo.gl/99OoC > >> Listening just now to a radio report of the counter-clockwise spinning >> Irene hurricane called to mind a night some years ago when I was lost in the >> Surrey darkness, trying to find the house of an English friend. My friend >> called me and said that I had made a mistake by turning left at the ring >> road, where I should have instead traveled ?anti-clockwise?. >> I was surprised at the term, which I had never heard before. Its meaning is >> transparent on its face, but what threw me off was that my friend didn?t use >> my mother?s word ?widdershins?, which I knew came from her UK ancestors. To >> them, widdershins meant particularly walking around a church with the wall >> always to one?s left rather than right, which could bring the devil?s curse >> of bad luck. > > > > Compare OED: > > withershins | widdershins, adv. >> Forms: 15? widder-, 16? wither-, (15 widdir-, weddir-, wod(d)er-, 15, 18 >> wooder-); 15?18 -sins, 15? -shins, (15 -syns, -shynes, -shynnis, -son(n)is, >> 15, 18 -sinnis, -sones, 16 -shines, 18 -schynnes).... (Show More) >> Etymology: < Middle Low German weddersin(ne)s (compare wedersins >> ?contrario modo?, Kilian), < Middle High German widersinnes, < wider-wither- >> prefix + genitive of sin (especially Middle German) = sind, sint way, >> direction (see sithe n.1): compare Middle High German widersinnen to return. >> In sense 2 associated with son, sun n.1... (Show Less) >> dial. (chiefly Sc.). >> ?1. In a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way; to stand or start >> withershins , (of the hair) to ?stand on end?. Obs. >> 2. In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun (considered >> as unlucky or causing disaster). >> > > > withershin(s) | widdershin(s), adj. >> Etymology: < withershins adv. >> Moving in an anticlockwise direction, contrary to the apparent course of >> the sun (considered as unlucky or sinister); unlucky, ill-fated, relating to >> the occult. > > > > Note "anti-clockwise" both in the adj. lemma and in the blog post. > Anti-clockwise has examples from 1898 to 1927, but that's still not as > out-of-date as counter-clockwise, which only has two--1888 and 1890. > > GB search for {anticloskwise | "anti-clockwise"} <1898 returns 272 raw > ghits, 52 raw for <1888, 12 actual, including three spuriously tagged and 9 > math texts. > > http://goo.gl/kzjBv > Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Volume 29. June 19, 1879 > On the Secular Effects of Tidal Friction. By G. H. Darwin. pp. 176-7 > >> i. Then in fig. 1, for all points of the line of momentum from C through E >> to infinity, /x/ is negative and /y/ is positive; therefore this indicates >> an anti-clockwise revolution of the satellite, and a clockwise rotation of >> the planet, but the m. of m. planetary rotation is greater than that of the >> orbital motion. >> ... >> ii. For all points of the line of momentum from D through F to infinity, >> /x/ is positive and /y/ is negative; therefore the motion of the satellite >> is clockwise, and that of the planetary rotation anti-clockwise, but the m. >> of m. of the orbital motion is greater than that of the planetary rotation. > > > > One of the other hits (1939) is a dictionary that lists sinister==climbing > anti-clockwise. > > Similar search for counterclockwise yields 331 raw ghits <1888, 9 <1877, > including 7 spuriously tagged. The remaining 2 are from the same year. > > > http://goo.gl/rLwaK > Principles of Mechanism. 2nd ed. By Robert Willis. London: 1870 > p. 158 > >> Consequently if the screw be left handed, it must be turned counter >> clockwise to enter a fixed nut, or put a movable nut in action upon the >> extremity of its screw. > > p. 233 > >> Thus a series of points is obtained through which the curves can be drawn >> as in Fig. 228 and theoretically they satisfy the condition of equalising >> the velocity of the reciprocating piece. If the lower curve, which is the >> driver, be rotated counter-clockwise its increasing radii will enable it >> to press against the decreasing radii of the follower until the concave >> salient point which terminates the long diameter of the driver is brought >> into contact with /b/. > > p. 428 > >> We have already seen that the arrangement of the cord /DW/ prevents the >> cylinder from revolving counter-clockwise, and leaves it free to be turned >> the reverse way, while on the other hand the motion given by raising and >> lowering the knob *G *grasps the cylinder and communicates rotation to it. >> As this rotation is in the direction of the clock, when the knob is raised >> the cord *BW *serves merely to steady the motion. > > > > http://goo.gl/jvJPb > Geometric Optics. By Osmund Airy. London: 1870 > p. 18 > >> For convenience the algebraic sign of the moment is said to be /positive/ >> when the moment tends to turn the body in a direction /counter-clockwise/, >> and /negative/ when it tends to turn the body in the /clockwise/ direction. > > pp. 51-2 > >> 30. ... If the couple tends to produce rotation in the clockwise >> direction, the moment is said to be negative; and if counterclockwise, >> positive. >> 31. Representation of Couples. -- The couple involves magnitude (moment) >> and direction (rotation), and may, therefore, be represented by an arrow, >> the length of the line being proportional to the moment of the couple, and >> the arrow indicating the direction of rotation. In order to make the matter >> of direction of rotation clear, the agreement is made that the arrow be >> drawn perpendicular to the plane of the couple on that side from which the >> rotation appears counter-clockwise. >> 32. ... The moment arrow of the resultant couple will be perpendicular to >> the cover of the book and on the side from which the rotation appears >> counter-clockwise. ... > > p. 169 > >> Angular velocity involves a magnitude and a direction, and may, therefore, >> be represented by an arrow (see Fig. 119), the length of the arrow >> representing the magnitude and drawn perpendicular to the plane of motion >> such that if you look along the arrow, from its point, the motion appears >> positive or negative; positive if counter-clockwise and negative if >> clockwise. > > > > Both conventions (left-handed screw==counter-clockwise; positive direction > of rotation==counter-clockwise) are fairly standard today, so it's > interesting to find both in the same year, but it is doubtful either one is > original. In fact, I am absolutely shocked that there is nothing in GB > earlier than 1870 for either term. No point post-dating either one, as they > are quite common (well, one more than the other). In any case, both need > updated quotations on both ends. > > VS-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 03:31:00 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:31:00 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108270304.p7QK0ltP009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > And for Claudette Colbert the "bare" pronunciation was no pswaydo affectation I agree. I meant that, IMO, the Frenchette (cf. _butterette_ "margarine [,ma:dZ@'rI:n]"; _leatherette_) pronunciation as used among the *colored* is pswaydo, not that its use by Americans is pswaydo in general. BTW, I'm glad to that my memory that Claudette had no particular accent, French or other, is supported! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 03:38:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:38:47 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <201108270312.p7QK0ltb009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > No mention of the opposite of withershins/widdershins in any of the below, viz. "deasil" (= 'with the apparent direction of the sun', i.e. clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere). ? Note that "widdershins" and "deasil" are respectively clockwise and counter-clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere, assuming that one's analog clocks go in the same direction there as they do here. ? In another generation, nobody will know what counter- (or anti-)clockwise refers to. > I've been familiar with "withershins"/"widdershins" from earliest childhood. It occurs in fairy tales, e.g. East of the Sun and West of the Moon. But _anti-clockwise_, _deasil_? This is my first encounter with either of them. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 05:01:36 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 01:01:36 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" Message-ID: Reminiscent of questions like "What's he gonna pay? Two men to do the same job?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 14:25:35 2011 From: b.taylorblake at GMAIL.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:25:35 -0400 Subject: An 1838 sighting of the "brass monkey" expression Message-ID: The OED cites Melville's 1847 use of "It was 'ot enough to melt the nose h'off a brass monkey" as a very early instance of the use of this "brass monkey" expression. For what it's worth, here's one from 1838: Old Knites was as cool as a cucumber, and would have been so independent of the weather, which was cold enough to freeze the nose off of a brass monkey. (From "Stray Leaves from a Straggler's Note Book: A Heroic Woman and a Womanish Hero," *The Morning Herald* [New York, New York], 30 May 1838, p. 2.) -- Bonnie ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 14:41:13 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:41:13 -0400 Subject: Hurricanes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 11:10 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: >Apparently, for those of us residing in NE PA, Irene will *not* be the >second coming of 1972's Hurricane Agnes, when floodwaters of the >Susquehanna rose to four feet on the *second* floor of my wife's >family manse, leading to the loss of her high school yearbook and the >demise of Daphne, the family kitty, among other tragedies. I was fully expecting you to reminisce about the hurricane of '38, Wilson. :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 14:45:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:45:51 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 11:12 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > In another generation, nobody will know what counter- (or > anti-)clockwise refers to. And medical instruction and skill will suffer. During my cataract operation, I could hear the surgeon describing positions to the intern assisting him as "at three o'clock", etc. When the operation was over, I asked him what he would do when there were no more analog clock faces. He didn't reply directly, but said that he has preserved one in his basement so that he can instruct his children. (Maybe he intends them to become the only eye surgeons who can do cataract removal well.) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 14:50:37 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 07:50:37 -0700 Subject: "critter" Message-ID: A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 14:51:06 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:51:06 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <72F4B71A-3879-4CB2-B0BE-5C99C808C074@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/26/2011 09:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >both lexical frames allow "The Colts substituted Manning", it's just >a question of whether Manning has just run onto the field (my >dialect) or off it (Carter's). Part of my previous comment was just that I've heard (I think) Carter's dialect in soccer broadcasts. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From cdoyle at UGA.EDU Sat Aug 27 15:22:04 2011 From: cdoyle at UGA.EDU (Charles C Doyle) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:22:04 +0000 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271450.p7RAu7Us007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Not in my 60+ years living in the South! I have heard the word used--well, all right, insensitively--for burn vicitms (usually dead): "crispy critters." --Charlie ________________________________________ From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Arnold Zwicky [zwicky at STANFORD.EDU] Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 10:50 AM A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 27 16:26:29 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:26:29 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271450.p7RAu7Us007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/27/2011 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > Subject: "critter" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? -- Not I. If there was such a usage with wide currency, would the "Crispy Critters" cereal name have been introduced twice (1960's, 1987 re Wiki)? I have myself encountered two slang [sub-]senses which I don't see in a glance at the usual books: (1) "critter[s]" = "small child[ren]" [I think maybe usually humorous or lightly disparaging, something like "rug rat"]; (2) "the critters" = "the crabs" (i.e., crab-louse infestation). -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 16:30:18 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:30:18 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108270502.p7QK0l8X009010@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > Reminiscent of questions like > > "What's he gonna pay? Two men to do the same job?" > > -- > -Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aandrea at UMICH.EDU Sat Aug 27 16:33:44 2011 From: aandrea at UMICH.EDU (Andrea Morrow) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:33:44 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271627.p7RB9hRG004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is used extensively there as one of the milder references by the white characters to the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. Andrea On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "critter" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 8/27/2011 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > Subject: "critter" > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter > and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten > confused. The basic facts about the books: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer > Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a > Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him > looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. > He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in > 1977] > > > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been > used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." > (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial > slur? > > > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her > life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in > any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about > the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution > of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to > disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was > no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks > or others). > > > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" > used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small > group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? > -- > > Not I. > > If there was such a usage with wide currency, would the "Crispy > Critters" cereal name have been introduced twice (1960's, 1987 re Wiki)? > > I have myself encountered two slang [sub-]senses which I don't see in a > glance at the usual books: (1) "critter[s]" = "small child[ren]" [I > think maybe usually humorous or lightly disparaging, something like "rug > rat"]; (2) "the critters" = "the crabs" (i.e., crab-louse infestation). > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Andrea Morrow Director of Writing Programs Stephen M. Ross School of Business The University of Michigan Room R3478 Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1234 aandrea at umich.edu 734.763.9317 ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 17:01:41 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:01:41 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Worth more than a little, I think. Googling one edition shows 4 instances of "critter". From an 1852 edition, vol. 2, GBooks full view. Topsy speaking of herself: "I spects I's the wickedest critter in the world." [Surely this must have made the YBQ! Or at least a stage version.] Page 50. A master speaking of a slave: "Well, here's a pious dog ... Powerful holy critter, he must be!" Page 197. Tom speaking of his master: "Ye poor miserable critter! ... there an't no more ye can do! I forgive ye, with all my soul!" Page 274. Tom talking to George (another slave?) about (I believe) a master: "O, don't---oh, ye mustn't! ... he's a poor mis'able critter! ... O, if he only could repent, the Lord would forgive him now ..." Page 281. Use by both masters and slaves is interesting. And I wonder if the master's use can really be considered racial. Joel At 8/27/2011 12:33 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: >FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is used >extensively there as one of the milder references by the white characters to >the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. > >Andrea > >On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > > Subject: Re: "critter" > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > On 8/27/2011 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > > ----------------------- > > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > > Poster: Arnold Zwicky > > > Subject: "critter" > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter > > and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten > > confused. The basic facts about the books: > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > > > > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer > > Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a > > Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him > > looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > > > > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. > > He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books > starting in > > 1977] > > > > > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been > > used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in > this context." > > (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > > > > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial > > slur? > > > > > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her > > life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in > > any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting > things about > > the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution > > of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to > > disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), > but there was > > no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks > > or others). > > > > > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" > > used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small > > group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > > > > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? > > -- > > > > Not I. > > > > If there was such a usage with wide currency, would the "Crispy > > Critters" cereal name have been introduced twice (1960's, 1987 re Wiki)? > > > > I have myself encountered two slang [sub-]senses which I don't see in a > > glance at the usual books: (1) "critter[s]" = "small child[ren]" [I > > think maybe usually humorous or lightly disparaging, something like "rug > > rat"]; (2) "the critters" = "the crabs" (i.e., crab-louse infestation). > > > > -- Doug Wilson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > > >-- >Andrea Morrow >Director of Writing Programs >Stephen M. Ross School of Business >The University of Michigan >Room R3478 >Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1234 >aandrea at umich.edu >734.763.9317 > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Sat Aug 27 17:39:57 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:39:57 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271701.p7RB1rwb016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: At a glance at the G-books 1852 edition of "Uncle Tom's Cabin" I see (without checking for duplicates, etc.) approximately 30 instances of "critter[s]"/"crittur[s]". The word seems to be "creature" in the usual sense[s]. I think in a couple of cases it refers to horses, dogs, and the like. I didn't attempt to identify the races of human referents, but at my glance the word does not seem restrictive by race or even by species. There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially apparent: "These critters an't like white folks ....", but I have the impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. Similarly an isolated instance of "These people ain't like us Americans" applied to [some or all] Englishmen would not imply the assertion that "people" has a sense "Englishmen" IMHO. Probably there's a term for such 'over-interpretation' or 'over-generalization'? (But my interpretation would depend on spoken stress: I assume it's "THESE critters" here but I would think again if I took it to be "these CRITTERS".) -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 17:46:54 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 10:46:54 -0700 Subject: reversed "blame" Message-ID: first "substitute", now "blame": http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/reversed-blame/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 18:31:44 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:31:44 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271450.p7RAu7Uu007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way _the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past_ makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "_critter_" used as _a milder version of the slur "nigger"_.) > I'll be John Brown! This is news to me! I don't think that I've ever even heard "critter" used in the wild in my entire life! I'm familiar with it, of course. But, when I come across it, I think, "Gabby Hayes," and not "Overt expression of racism!". IME, I can compare it only to the pejoration of _moist_ as being a concept that's just plain weird. The other night I was watching some tube and there was a scene featuring the old say-a-bad-word-and-put-a-quarter-into-the-jar sketches. Each 'bad" word had its own jar. The "Moist" jar was the only one overflowing with quarters. (My take was that the idea of "moist" as a *bad word" was being mocked. YMMV.) On the other side of the coin is the melioration of heretofore traditionally-"bad" words. My fellow East-Texan, Ellen DeGeneres opens her show by saying to her audience, "Hello, bitches!" Guys - and, sometimes, even *chicks*! - casually discuss "tapping that ass" during the "family" hour! Youneverknow. "Political correctness" is jut plain silly! Surely, there exist genuine expressions of racism that are far more worthy of popular attention, as well as far more subtle. E.g., the recent Republican statement that the assertion that there are "poor" [sic] people in the United States is utterly ridiculous. Why, nearly 100% of the "poor" own refrigerators! Compared to what? Having only iceboxes? That's the kind of thing that the bleeding hearts should be concerning themselves with, not the search for - or the invention of - new "racial slurs"! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 18:36:42 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 11:36:42 -0700 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/uncle-tomming/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 18:43:10 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:43:10 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <201108271747.p7RAu7eI007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Arnold Zwicky > Subject: ? ? ? reversed "blame" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > first "substitute", now "blame": > > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/reversed-blame/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > Perhaps that SF short story, Shall We Have a Little Talk, is entirely correct, on some level. Languages really *do* change, even as you're learning them! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 18:55:53 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:55:53 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271701.p7RB9hRe004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: FWIW, I'm with Doug Wilson on this one--all I see is critter==creature, with no particularly strong attachment to any slurs. Here's a selection from just one year's worth of a publication that covers critter/crittur==dog/horse/rattlesnake/mermaid/person/[unidentified animal]. http://goo.gl/zpiA8 Graham's Magazine. Volume 22. Philadelphia: 1843 No. 1 (January). How to Tell a Story. By Seba Smith. pp. 34-5 > "Well, the next night John took Rover--now Rover was the largest dog I ever > see, near about as large as a heifer, and the knowingest *critter* I ever > laid eyes on. Well, John took him out to the pen, and told him to watch the > sheep. John 'll never forget how that *critter* looked up in his face, and > licked his hand when he left him, just as if he knew what would come of it, > and wanted to say good bye; nor how he crouched down before the bars, and > laid his nose upon his paws, and looked after him solemnlike. Poor Rover! > The next morning John was up airly, for he felt kind a worried. He went out > to the sheep pen, and sure enough the first thing he see, was--(Polly, you > 've just cut a worm-hole into your apples)--the first thing he see, was > poor Rover dead I by the bars, his head torn right open, and another sheep > gone. John's dander was fairly up--he took down the gun, there it hangs on > the hooks, took his powder-horn and bullets, and started off. I tried to > coax him to set a trap, or to watch by the sheep-pen. But John always had a > will of his own, and was the courageousest man in the town, and he declared > he 'd have nothing to do with any such cowardly tricks. He 'd kill the * > critter* in broad day-light, if 'twas only to revenge poor Rover. So he > started off. He tracked the *critter* about a mile round by the mountain, > which in them days was covered with trees to the very top. [Review of] The Career of Puffer Hopkins. By Cornelius Mathews. ... New York, D. Appleton & Co. 1842. p. 59 > "Not more thnn twenty acres," responded the deepchested juror, with the air > of a gentleman carrying all before him; "and swimmin' a healthy run o' water > a rod wide give the *critter* a belly-full at any time." No. 2 (February). The Enchanted Gun. A Tennessee Story. By C. F. Hoffman. p. 62. > "You thought I would have been here before?" I exclaimed at last, in reply > to her singular salutation; "why, my good woman, I have lost my way, and > only stumbled upon your house by accident--you must take me for somebody > else." > "I 'm no good woman. Don't good woman me," she replied, with a scrutinizing > glance which had something, I thought, of almost fierceness in it, as > shading the now lighted candle with one hand, she turned scornfully round > and fixed her regards upon me. > "Yes! yes, strannger, you are the man, the very man that was to come at > this hour. I dreamed ye--I dreamed yer hoss--yer brown leggins and all, I > dreamed 'em--and now go look after yer *critter* while I get some supper for > ye." The Fire-Doomed. A Tale of the "Old Dominion". By Reynell Coates. p. 122 > "There, Mister," said his attendant, "I kinder calkilate you've ben sleepin > with a bed-feller not of your own choosin last night, any how. I 'd rather > keep to hum than come all the way up here after such a tarnal reptyle * > crittur* as that. It's well for you that our Crumple strayed away yester > noon, and the old woman took on so powerful about the milk. This chap was > quirled up close to your ear when I came upon you. Do tell! Arn't he a > swingeing big one?" And he lifted, upon the end of his stick, a monstrous > rattle-snake, whose head had been crushed by the last blow. His back had > been broken before the sleeper woke. > ... > "Now, you don't say! Come all the way from Virginia a huntin! Why, how > tired you must be! You 'd find it much easier to ride. May be you and me > couldn't make a bargain for my four-year-old? He's as handsome a * > crittur* as ever you see: he takes to the beach-woods as nateral and as > spry as a squirrel?gallops over log causeway and never stumbles--and gits > fat on nothin and potatoe rinds!" Volume 23 No. 2 (August). Jack Spanker and the Mermaid. By Elizabeth Okes Smith. pp. 69-70 > "I won 't deny, says I, you 're a nice lookin' gal, but what colors do you > sail under, how do you hail? I 've no notion bein' fool'd by any heathenish > *critter*, bred a Christian as I 've been. > "You should a seen her laugh. 'You may call me what pleases you best. Won't > you give me a name, Jack ?' > "No, faith, I mean to do that for Nelly. Howsomever, I do n't object to > call you Nelly jest one v'yge. > "The *critter* laughed agin, and I don't know how it was, she did look like > Nelly Spaulding. I rubbed my eyes over and over agin, but there she was > growin' more and more like her every minit. After awhile, says I, > ... > "You may well say that, says I, and none of your fish-ending and 'yster > kind of *critters* neither, for you must know I had n't hardly got over her > asking me to lake a trip to Davy's locker. I had n't well nigh got the words > out of my mouth, before there the *critter* was a sittin' on the jib-boom, > right before me, and two the funniest little feet just peeping out from > under her petticoats. I jest took my fore-finger and touched her little > white arm, same as I used to do to the dough, when my mother's back was > turned. And sure enough 'twas soft and warm, and nothing like clam or fish > about it. But she didn't mean to stay, for she jumped down agin, laughin' in > great fun. Then the mate called out, ' Jack, a'int you done that jib yet?' > "Aye, aye, mostly, sir, but there's been a confounded mermaid here plaguin' > me. Then the men all laughed, as if they thought it a good joke, but I knew > it was airnest. But what's the use tryin' to teach poor ignorant *critters* > what wont believe what a man tells them he has seen with his own eyes?" No. 6 (December). A Day in the Woods. Or English and American Game. By Frank Forester. p. 294 > "Yes, that is it, certainly--and those *are *hares and pheasants--and > that's a right smart Jersey trotter, I some guess--a *critter* that can > travel like a strick--and the boy holding him--that's a Long Island nigger, > now I calkilate, --oh, ya--as! and that's a Yorker on a gunnin' scrape, > stringin' them pheasants! ya--as;" and he spoke with so absurd an imitation > and exaggeration of the Yankee twang and drawl, that he set Heneage > laughing, though he was still more than half indignant. It's possible that someone divined that "critter" was a slur from various uses such as the ones in Uncle Tom, or a comment by a Sheridan scout (from his memoirs) concerning" Injuns and other critters". But, really, just substituting "creature" for "critter" makes it look less like a slur and just a term of general indifference. It applies in random measure to all sorts of animals--same as it does today, but without the additional connotation of smallness and cuteness, perhaps--to mermaids, to people of pretty much any creed. There is some derogatory sense in it, but that's not racial--just a general sense of contempt--and even that only on occasion. It certainly does not appear to have been /intended/ as a slur in the mid- to late 19th century (and entirely US). BTW, any attempt at antedating (OED--1815) failed in GB--all pre-1815 tags and many of 1816-1833 turned out to be spurious, some obviously so (including the Sheridan memoirs published in 1885 but tagged as 1825). VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Worth more than a little, I think. Googling one edition shows 4 > instances of "critter". From an 1852 edition, vol. 2, GBooks full view. > > Topsy speaking of herself: "I spects I's the wickedest critter in > the world." [Surely this must have made the YBQ! Or at least a > stage version.] Page 50. > > A master speaking of a slave: "Well, here's a pious dog ... Powerful > holy critter, he must be!" Page 197. > > Tom speaking of his master: "Ye poor miserable critter! ... there > an't no more ye can do! I forgive ye, with all my soul!" Page 274. > > Tom talking to George (another slave?) about (I believe) a master: > "O, don't---oh, ye mustn't! ... he's a poor mis'able critter! ... O, > if he only could repent, the Lord would forgive him now ..." Page 281. > > Use by both masters and slaves is interesting. And I wonder if the > master's use can really be considered racial. > > Joel > > At 8/27/2011 12:33 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: > >FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is used > >extensively there as one of the milder references by the white characters > to > >the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. > > > >Andrea > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Aug 27 18:46:11 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:46:11 -0400 Subject: "nerd" etymythology In-Reply-To: <201108141536.p7EAlUfd026174@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I wrote about the misty origins of "nerd" for this Sunday's Boston Globe: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/08/28/birth_of_the_nerd/ Thanks to Garson et al. for their contributions. --bgz On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > > > I have located the 1952 cartoon in Collier's magazine that uses the > > word nerd and numerous other slang terms. As Ben noted the vocabulary > > items apparently were based on the October 1951 Newsweek article. I > > also located the reprint of the cartoon in Collier's that appeared > > with a news item about the reaction to the cartoon. > > > > Cite: 1952 February 2, Collier's, [free standing cartoon by John > > Norment surrounded by an unrelated article with the page title "But > > Jigs and Maggie Are in Love"], Page 39, Crowell-Collier Pub. Co. > > (Verified on paper) > > > > [Cartoon by John Norment depicts a radio announcer with three pages of > > typescript speaking into a microphone labeled with the letters B A C. > > Behind the announcer is another figure in the control booth. The > > caption is given below.] > > > > "You'll get a large charge from Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. So get on > > the stick with these real fat, real cool, really crazy clothes. Don't > > be a Party-Pooper or a nerd. Yes, everybody is bashing ears about > > Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes. They're Frampton. They're pash-pie. > > They're MOST! Everybody from Jelly-tots to Cool Jonahs gets a big > > tickle from Hoffman's threads. These suits are really made in the > > shade, and when your Dolly, or double bubble, sees you wearing a > > Hoffman she'll give you an approving Mother Higby and say, 'That has > > it !'. So don't get squishy and be a schnookle. The geetafrate is > > reasonable and we'll make it Chili for you. Remember, don't be an odd > > ball. The name is Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes" > [...] > > Thanks to Garson for tracking this down. For anyone keeping score, > here are the earliest known examples of "nerd" (disregarding Dr. > Seuss's use of the word in "If I Ran the Zoo," which appeared in > shortened form in _Redbook_ in July 1950 before being published in > book form later that year). Items in _The Age_, _Reader's Digest_, and > _Collier's_ all draw their teen slang terms directly from _Newsweek_, > while the _Herald-Press_ article is a bit more wide-ranging: > > --- > 1951 _Newsweek_ 8 Oct. 28 In Detroit, someone who once would be called > a drip or a square is now, regrettably, a nerd, or in a less severe > case, a scurve. > > 1951 _The Age_ (Melbourne, Australia) 11 Oct. 4 ("U.S. Teen-agers Talk > a 'Cool, Shafty' Language") Teenagers in New York, Chicago, New > Orleans and Los Angeles who resort to such passe expressions are mere > peasants or "nerds.?... Such lowly "nerds" in other cities may on > occasion be hailed by acquaintances, with, "Hey, nosebleed." > http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=k8dVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=IcQDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5372,4309418 > > 1952 _Reader?s Digest_ Jan. 57 In Detroit, someone who once would have > been called a drip or a square is now a nerd, or in a less severe case > a scurve. > > 1952 _Collier?s_ 2 Feb. 39 (cartoon by John Norment, featuring radio > DJ reading a fictitious ad for "Hoffman's Teen-Age Clothes") Don't be > a party-pooper or a nerd. > > 1952 _Herald-Press_ (St. Joseph, Mich.) 23 June 14 (?To 'Clue Ya' To > Be 'George' And Not A 'Nerd' Or 'Scurve'?) If the patois throws you, > you're definitely not in the know, because anyone who is not a nerd > (drip) knows that the bug is the family car. > --- > > --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Sat Aug 27 19:10:08 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:10:08 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example Message-ID: I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like it. It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she happens to dislike. http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:14:47 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:14:47 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108271836.p7RAu7g4007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/uncle-tomming/ > According to the late-great: "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may _tom out_ on yo' ass." -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't Crap! (Laff Records) I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Sat Aug 27 19:16:22 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:16:22 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271910.p7RB9hUs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an > example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca > blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan > Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that > can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about > three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like > it. > > It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to > antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is > not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have > checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she > happens to dislike. > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ Or she could have Googled up the On Language reader response I wrote last year on the topic: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/magazine/15onlanguage.html --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:19:04 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:19:04 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271910.p7RB9hUs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Jesse Sheidlower > Subject: ? ? ? Recency illusion: today's example > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an > example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca > blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan > Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that > can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about > three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like > it. > > It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to > antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is > not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have > checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she > happens to dislike. > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > "What was old is new, again," to coin a phrade.:-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:20:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:20:53 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271916.p7RAu7jO007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jesse, Ben, you boys play nice, now.;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:16 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Ben Zimmer > Subject: ? ? ? Re: Recency illusion: today's example > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >> >> I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an >> example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca >> blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan >> Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that >> can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about >> three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like >> it. >> >> It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to >> antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is >> not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have >> checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she >> happens to dislike. >> >> > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ > > Or she could have Googled up the On Language reader response I wrote last year > on the topic: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/magazine/15onlanguage.html > > --bgz > > > -- > Ben Zimmer > http://benzimmer.com/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 19:39:09 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:39:09 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271856.p7RAu7ha007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have never heard or even read it so used either. In regard to the usage of H. B. Stowe, readers of pulp westerns of a few generations ago will recall the frequent use of "critter" as a vaguely dismissive term for any human being. JL On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 2:55 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: "critter" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > FWIW, I'm with Doug Wilson on this one--all I see is > critter=3D=3Dcreature,= > with > no particularly strong attachment to any slurs. > > Here's a selection from just one year's worth of a publication that covers > critter/crittur=3D=3Ddog/horse/rattlesnake/mermaid/person/[unidentified > animal]. > > http://goo.gl/zpiA8 > Graham's Magazine. Volume 22. Philadelphia: 1843 > No. 1 (January). How to Tell a Story. By Seba Smith. pp. 34-5 > > > "Well, the next night John took Rover--now Rover was the largest dog I > ev= > er > > see, near about as large as a heifer, and the knowingest *critter* I ever > > laid eyes on. Well, John took him out to the pen, and told him to watch > t= > he > > sheep. John 'll never forget how that *critter* looked up in his face, > an= > d > > licked his hand when he left him, just as if he knew what would come of > i= > t, > > and wanted to say good bye; nor how he crouched down before the bars, and > > laid his nose upon his paws, and looked after him solemnlike. Poor Rover! > > The next morning John was up airly, for he felt kind a worried. He went > o= > ut > > to the sheep pen, and sure enough the first thing he see, was--(Polly, > yo= > u > > 've just cut a worm-hole into your apples)--the first thing he see, was > > poor Rover dead I by the bars, his head torn right open, and another > shee= > p > > gone. John's dander was fairly up--he took down the gun, there it hangs > o= > n > > the hooks, took his powder-horn and bullets, and started off. I tried to > > coax him to set a trap, or to watch by the sheep-pen. But John always > had= > a > > will of his own, and was the courageousest man in the town, and he > declar= > ed > > he 'd have nothing to do with any such cowardly tricks. He 'd kill the * > > critter* in broad day-light, if 'twas only to revenge poor Rover. So he > > started off. He tracked the *critter* about a mile round by the mountain, > > which in them days was covered with trees to the very top. > > > [Review of] The Career of Puffer Hopkins. By Cornelius Mathews. ... New > York, D. Appleton & Co. 1842. p. 59 > > > "Not more thnn twenty acres," responded the deepchested juror, with the > a= > ir > > of a gentleman carrying all before him; "and swimmin' a healthy run o' > wa= > ter > > a rod wide give the *critter* a belly-full at any time." > > > No. 2 (February). The Enchanted Gun. A Tennessee Story. By C. F. Hoffman. > p= > . > 62. > > > "You thought I would have been here before?" I exclaimed at last, in > repl= > y > > to her singular salutation; "why, my good woman, I have lost my way, and > > only stumbled upon your house by accident--you must take me for somebody > > else." > > "I 'm no good woman. Don't good woman me," she replied, with a > scrutinizi= > ng > > glance which had something, I thought, of almost fierceness in it, as > > shading the now lighted candle with one hand, she turned scornfully round > > and fixed her regards upon me. > > "Yes! yes, strannger, you are the man, the very man that was to come at > > this hour. I dreamed ye--I dreamed yer hoss--yer brown leggins and all, I > > dreamed 'em--and now go look after yer *critter* while I get some supper > = > for > > ye." > > > The Fire-Doomed. A Tale of the "Old Dominion". By Reynell Coates. p. 122 > > > "There, Mister," said his attendant, "I kinder calkilate you've ben > sleep= > in > > with a bed-feller not of your own choosin last night, any how. I 'd > rathe= > r > > keep to hum than come all the way up here after such a tarnal reptyle * > > crittur* as that. It's well for you that our Crumple strayed away yester > > noon, and the old woman took on so powerful about the milk. This chap was > > quirled up close to your ear when I came upon you. Do tell! Arn't he a > > swingeing big one?" And he lifted, upon the end of his stick, a monstrous > > rattle-snake, whose head had been crushed by the last blow. His back had > > been broken before the sleeper woke. > > ... > > "Now, you don't say! Come all the way from Virginia a huntin! Why, how > > tired you must be! You 'd find it much easier to ride. May be you and me > > couldn't make a bargain for my four-year-old? He's as handsome a * > > crittur* as ever you see: he takes to the beach-woods as nateral and as > > spry as a squirrel=97gallops over log causeway and never stumbles--and > gi= > ts > > fat on nothin and potatoe rinds!" > > > Volume 23 > No. 2 (August). Jack Spanker and the Mermaid. By Elizabeth Okes Smith. pp. > 69-70 > > > "I won 't deny, says I, you 're a nice lookin' gal, but what colors do > yo= > u > > sail under, how do you hail? I 've no notion bein' fool'd by any > heatheni= > sh > > *critter*, bred a Christian as I 've been. > > "You should a seen her laugh. 'You may call me what pleases you best. > Won= > 't > > you give me a name, Jack ?' > > "No, faith, I mean to do that for Nelly. Howsomever, I do n't object to > > call you Nelly jest one v'yge. > > "The *critter* laughed agin, and I don't know how it was, she did look > li= > ke > > Nelly Spaulding. I rubbed my eyes over and over agin, but there she was > > growin' more and more like her every minit. After awhile, says I, > > ... > > "You may well say that, says I, and none of your fish-ending and 'yster > > kind of *critters* neither, for you must know I had n't hardly got over > h= > er > > asking me to lake a trip to Davy's locker. I had n't well nigh got the > wo= > rds > > out of my mouth, before there the *critter* was a sittin' on the > jib-boom= > , > > right before me, and two the funniest little feet just peeping out from > > under her petticoats. I jest took my fore-finger and touched her little > > white arm, same as I used to do to the dough, when my mother's back was > > turned. And sure enough 'twas soft and warm, and nothing like clam or > fis= > h > > about it. But she didn't mean to stay, for she jumped down agin, > laughin'= > in > > great fun. Then the mate called out, ' Jack, a'int you done that jib > yet?= > ' > > "Aye, aye, mostly, sir, but there's been a confounded mermaid here > plagui= > n' > > me. Then the men all laughed, as if they thought it a good joke, but I > kn= > ew > > it was airnest. But what's the use tryin' to teach poor ignorant > *critter= > s* > > what wont believe what a man tells them he has seen with his own eyes?" > > > No. 6 (December). A Day in the Woods. Or English and American Game. By > Fran= > k > Forester. p. 294 > > > "Yes, that is it, certainly--and those *are *hares and pheasants--and > > that's a right smart Jersey trotter, I some guess--a *critter* that can > > travel like a strick--and the boy holding him--that's a Long Island > nigge= > r, > > now I calkilate, --oh, ya--as! and that's a Yorker on a gunnin' scrape, > > stringin' them pheasants! ya--as;" and he spoke with so absurd an > imitati= > on > > and exaggeration of the Yankee twang and drawl, that he set Heneage > > laughing, though he was still more than half indignant. > > > > It's possible that someone divined that "critter" was a slur from various > uses such as the ones in Uncle Tom, or a comment by a Sheridan scout (from > his memoirs) concerning" Injuns and other critters". But, really, just > substituting "creature" for "critter" makes it look less like a slur and > just a term of general indifference. It applies in random measure to all > sorts of animals--same as it does today, but without the additional > connotation of smallness and cuteness, perhaps--to mermaids, to people of > pretty much any creed. There is some derogatory sense in it, but that's not > racial--just a general sense of contempt--and even that only on occasion. > I= > t > certainly does not appear to have been /intended/ as a slur in the mid- to > late 19th century (and entirely US). > > BTW, any attempt at antedating (OED--1815) failed in GB--all pre-1815 tags > and many of 1816-1833 turned out to be spurious, some obviously so > (including the Sheridan memoirs published in 1885 but tagged as 1825). > > VS-) > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > Worth more than a little, I think. Googling one edition shows 4 > > instances of "critter". From an 1852 edition, vol. 2, GBooks full view. > > > > Topsy speaking of herself: "I spects I's the wickedest critter in > > the world." [Surely this must have made the YBQ! Or at least a > > stage version.] Page 50. > > > > A master speaking of a slave: "Well, here's a pious dog ... Powerful > > holy critter, he must be!" Page 197. > > > > Tom speaking of his master: "Ye poor miserable critter! ... there > > an't no more ye can do! I forgive ye, with all my soul!" Page 274. > > > > Tom talking to George (another slave?) about (I believe) a master: > > "O, don't---oh, ye mustn't! ... he's a poor mis'able critter! ... O, > > if he only could repent, the Lord would forgive him now ..." Page 281. > > > > Use by both masters and slaves is interesting. And I wonder if the > > master's use can really be considered racial. > > > > Joel > > > > At 8/27/2011 12:33 PM, Andrea Morrow wrote: > > >FWIW I am reading Uncle Tom's Cabin (Kindle edition) and "critter" is > us= > ed > > >extensively there as one of the milder references by the white > character= > s > > to > > >the African American characters. Even the "good" people use that term. > > > > > >Andrea > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 20:04:14 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:04:14 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108271630.p7RB1rvx016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:30 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a > single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] > I'm not sure what you mean. IAC, _What's this software? ??_ was written in a post to a software site. _What's he gonna pay? ??_ I heard. I'd have expected, "What's he gonna _do_? _Pay_ two men to do the same job?" In the former case, I'd have expected "What's this software_'s age_? Like 9 years old?" Or something like that. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 20:24:07 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:24:07 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108271915.p7RAu7jI007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > Green?s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite > for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating > could probably be improved on by a systematic search. Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 books.google.com Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... http://books.google.com/books?id=1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=tomming#v=snippet& Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or later. The Negro in America books.google.com Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by suspecting them of being ... http://books.google.com/books?id=vTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=Tomming#search_anchor Worldcat has an entry that says: The Negro in America Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] But another edition was published in 1964: 1. The Negro in America. With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > > According to the late-great: > > "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may > _tom out_ on yo' ass." > -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't > Crap! (Laff Records) > > I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. > > > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 27 20:28:07 2011 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:28:07 -0700 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <201108270312.p7QJWNQB002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: My kids - in their teens - don't get it when they ask what time it is and I answer "quarter to..." Their preference for the digital clock is so strong that they have no visual reference for it. On the other hand, they were preparing to go somewhere with a friend their age, and the friend said, "Hey, we better get going. It's almost fifty." Took me a moment to figure out that she meant 00:50, which the adults in the family would have called "ten of..." or "ten to..." On Aug 26, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter- > clockwise) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > No mention of the opposite of withershins/widdershins in any of the > below, viz. "deasil" (= 'with the apparent direction of the sun', > i.e. clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere). Note that "widdershins" > and "deasil" are respectively clockwise and counter-clockwise in the > Southern Hemisphere, assuming that one's analog clocks go in the > same direction there as they do here. In another generation, nobody > will know what counter- (or anti-)clockwise refers to. > > LH > > On Aug 26, 2011, at 2:42 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > >> The "amateur" is Keith Humphries of RBC blog: >> >> http://goo.gl/99OoC >> >>> Listening just now to a radio report of the counter-clockwise >>> spinning >>> Irene hurricane called to mind a night some years ago when I was >>> lost in the >>> Surrey darkness, trying to find the house of an English friend. My >>> friend >>> called me and said that I had made a mistake by turning left at >>> the ring >>> road, where I should have instead traveled ?anti-clockwise?. >>> I was surprised at the term, which I had never heard before. Its >>> meaning is >>> transparent on its face, but what threw me off was that my friend >>> didn?t use >>> my mother?s word ?widdershins?, which I knew came from her UK >>> ancestors. To >>> them, widdershins meant particularly walking around a church with >>> the wall >>> always to one?s left rather than right, which could bring the >>> devil?s curse >>> of bad luck. >> >> >> >> Compare OED: >> >> withershins | widdershins, adv. >>> Forms: 15? widder-, 16? wither-, (15 widdir-, weddir-, wod(d)er-, >>> 15, 18 >>> wooder-); 15?18 -sins, 15? -shins, (15 -syns, -shynes, -shynnis, - >>> son(n)is, >>> 15, 18 -sinnis, -sones, 16 -shines, 18 -schynnes).... (Show More) >>> Etymology: < Middle Low German weddersin(ne)s (compare wedersins >>> ?contrario modo?, Kilian), < Middle High German widersinnes, < >>> wider-wither- >>> prefix + genitive of sin (especially Middle German) = sind, sint >>> way, >>> direction (see sithe n.1): compare Middle High German widersinnen >>> to return. >>> In sense 2 associated with son, sun n.1... (Show Less) >>> dial. (chiefly Sc.). >>> ?1. In a direction opposite to the usual; the wrong way; to stand >>> or start >>> withershins , (of the hair) to ?stand on end?. Obs. >>> 2. In a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun >>> (considered >>> as unlucky or causing disaster). >>> >> >> >> withershin(s) | widdershin(s), adj. >>> Etymology: < withershins adv. >>> Moving in an anticlockwise direction, contrary to the apparent >>> course of >>> the sun (considered as unlucky or sinister); unlucky, ill-fated, >>> relating to >>> the occult. >> >> >> >> Note "anti-clockwise" both in the adj. lemma and in the blog post. >> Anti-clockwise has examples from 1898 to 1927, but that's still not >> as >> out-of-date as counter-clockwise, which only has two--1888 and 1890. >> >> GB search for {anticloskwise | "anti-clockwise"} <1898 returns 272 >> raw >> ghits, 52 raw for <1888, 12 actual, including three spuriously >> tagged and 9 >> math texts. >> >> http://goo.gl/kzjBv >> Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Volume 29. June 19, 1879 >> On the Secular Effects of Tidal Friction. By G. H. Darwin. pp. 176-7 >> >>> i. Then in fig. 1, for all points of the line of momentum from C >>> through E >>> to infinity, /x/ is negative and /y/ is positive; therefore this >>> indicates >>> an anti-clockwise revolution of the satellite, and a clockwise >>> rotation of >>> the planet, but the m. of m. planetary rotation is greater than >>> that of the >>> orbital motion. >>> ... >>> ii. For all points of the line of momentum from D through F to >>> infinity, >>> /x/ is positive and /y/ is negative; therefore the motion of the >>> satellite >>> is clockwise, and that of the planetary rotation anti-clockwise, >>> but the m. >>> of m. of the orbital motion is greater than that of the planetary >>> rotation. >> >> >> >> One of the other hits (1939) is a dictionary that lists >> sinister==climbing >> anti-clockwise. >> >> Similar search for counterclockwise yields 331 raw ghits <1888, 9 >> <1877, >> including 7 spuriously tagged. The remaining 2 are from the same >> year. >> >> >> http://goo.gl/rLwaK >> Principles of Mechanism. 2nd ed. By Robert Willis. London: 1870 >> p. 158 >> >>> Consequently if the screw be left handed, it must be turned counter >>> clockwise to enter a fixed nut, or put a movable nut in action >>> upon the >>> extremity of its screw. >> >> p. 233 >> >>> Thus a series of points is obtained through which the curves can >>> be drawn >>> as in Fig. 228 and theoretically they satisfy the condition of >>> equalising >>> the velocity of the reciprocating piece. If the lower curve, which >>> is the >>> driver, be rotated counter-clockwise its increasing radii will >>> enable it >>> to press against the decreasing radii of the follower until the >>> concave >>> salient point which terminates the long diameter of the driver is >>> brought >>> into contact with /b/. >> >> p. 428 >> >>> We have already seen that the arrangement of the cord /DW/ >>> prevents the >>> cylinder from revolving counter-clockwise, and leaves it free to >>> be turned >>> the reverse way, while on the other hand the motion given by >>> raising and >>> lowering the knob *G *grasps the cylinder and communicates >>> rotation to it. >>> As this rotation is in the direction of the clock, when the knob >>> is raised >>> the cord *BW *serves merely to steady the motion. >> >> >> >> http://goo.gl/jvJPb >> Geometric Optics. By Osmund Airy. London: 1870 >> p. 18 >> >>> For convenience the algebraic sign of the moment is said to be / >>> positive/ >>> when the moment tends to turn the body in a direction /counter- >>> clockwise/, >>> and /negative/ when it tends to turn the body in the /clockwise/ >>> direction. >> >> pp. 51-2 >> >>> 30. ... If the couple tends to produce rotation in the clockwise >>> direction, the moment is said to be negative; and if >>> counterclockwise, >>> positive. >>> 31. Representation of Couples. -- The couple involves magnitude >>> (moment) >>> and direction (rotation), and may, therefore, be represented by an >>> arrow, >>> the length of the line being proportional to the moment of the >>> couple, and >>> the arrow indicating the direction of rotation. In order to make >>> the matter >>> of direction of rotation clear, the agreement is made that the >>> arrow be >>> drawn perpendicular to the plane of the couple on that side from >>> which the >>> rotation appears counter-clockwise. >>> 32. ... The moment arrow of the resultant couple will be >>> perpendicular to >>> the cover of the book and on the side from which the rotation >>> appears >>> counter-clockwise. ... >> >> p. 169 >> >>> Angular velocity involves a magnitude and a direction, and may, >>> therefore, >>> be represented by an arrow (see Fig. 119), the length of the arrow >>> representing the magnitude and drawn perpendicular to the plane of >>> motion >>> such that if you look along the arrow, from its point, the motion >>> appears >>> positive or negative; positive if counter-clockwise and negative if >>> clockwise. >> >> >> >> Both conventions (left-handed screw==counter-clockwise; positive >> direction >> of rotation==counter-clockwise) are fairly standard today, so it's >> interesting to find both in the same year, but it is doubtful >> either one is >> original. In fact, I am absolutely shocked that there is nothing >> in GB >> earlier than 1870 for either term. No point post-dating either one, >> as they >> are quite common (well, one more than the other). In any case, both >> need >> updated quotations on both ends. >> >> VS-) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 20:39:50 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:39:50 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <4C11E753-41F5-45B3-AE6C-9D3FB87869DE@stanford.edu> Message-ID: Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional Republicans." The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish army invades Persia". Joel At 8/27/2011 01:46 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >first "substitute", now "blame": > >http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/27/reversed-blame/ > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sat Aug 27 21:06:22 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:06:22 -0400 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <3D6BFDD3-BD3A-4936-86AD-B0635E0DA71F@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 8/27/2011 04:28 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock wrote: >My kids - in their teens - don't get it when they ask what time it is >and I answer "quarter to..." Their preference for the digital clock >is so strong that they have no visual reference for it. Have they never been inside -- or for that matter at the south, 42nd Street, outside of -- Grand Central Terminal? Or boarded a train at King's Cross station? Or seen "North by Northwest"? They must have seen "Superman". Or passed the corner of Massachusetts and Park Avenues in Arlington Heights, Massachusetts, where the four-faced analog clock is once again showing the correct time? http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9595676 Joel >On the other hand, they were preparing to go somewhere with a friend >their age, and the friend said, "Hey, we better get going. It's almost >fifty." Took me a moment to figure out that she meant 00:50, which the >adults in the family would have called "ten of..." or "ten to..." I would have taken longer than a moment. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 21:26:36 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:26:36 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 11:22 AM, Charles C Doyle wrote: > Not in my 60+ years living in the South! I have heard the word used--well, all right, insensitively--for burn vicitms (usually dead): "crispy critters." > > ?Charlie > Tim O'Brien's semi-memoiristic novel _The Things They Carried_, set during the Vietnam War in the late 1960s, portrays the use of "crispy critter" (either cynically or as a distancing device) by U.S. soldiers to refer to those burned to death during the conflict. Maybe especially by napalm, I can't recall. LH > ________________________________________ > From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] on behalf of Arnold Zwicky [zwicky at STANFORD.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 10:50 AM > > > A friend posted on Facebook a little while back about the Little Critter and Little Monster books for kids, which, as it turned out, she had gotten confused. The basic facts about the books: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Critter : > > Little Critter is an anthropomorphic animal character created by Mercer Mayer. According to the official website, his animal species is just a Little Critter even though he, some friends, family and others like him looked like hamster-guinea pig hybrids. [series of books starting in 1975] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Monster : > > Little Monster is an anthropomorphic character created by Mercer Mayer. He looks like a mix of a dinosaur and a dragon. [series of books starting in 1977] > > She went on to say: "my feeling is that the way the word critter has been used as a racial slur in the past makes it feel very wrong in this context." (That would be "critter" used as a milder version of the slur "nigger".) > > This produced widespread puzzlement on the part of her readers. Racial slur? > > At first she thought it might be a southernism (she's lived most of her life below the Mason-Dixon Line), but I could find no evidence of this in any of the relevant dictionaries (which had lots of interesting things about the phonology, meanings, history, and geographical and social distribution of the item). The most relevant finding was that "critter" can be used to disparage specific human beings (by comparing them to beasts), but there was no evidence of its being used to pick out particular social groups (blacks or others). > > Other Southerners chimed in to say that they had never heard "critter" used this way. (It's possible that the usage is restricted to a very small group of people -- much like a "family word".) > > Has anyone here experienced this usage? Or even heard of it? > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From spanbocks at VERIZON.NET Sat Aug 27 21:33:06 2011 From: spanbocks at VERIZON.NET (Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:33:06 -0700 Subject: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <201108272106.p7RAu7q4007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: They've seen NXNW (although I'm trying to remember a scene with a clock?) and they can use an analog clock, but, it just isn't automatic for them the way it is for us older folks. They don't wear watches because they have cell phones. The only clock in our house that is analog is the one in the kitchen, where there is a digital clock on the stove as well. Funny, isn't it? Kate Svoboda-Spanbock On Aug 27, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: Re: amateur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter- > clockwise) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > At 8/27/2011 04:28 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock wrote: >> My kids - in their teens - don't get it when they ask what time it is >> and I answer "quarter to..." Their preference for the digital clock >> is so strong that they have no visual reference for it. > > Have they never been inside -- or for that matter at the south, 42nd > Street, outside of -- Grand Central Terminal? Or boarded a train at > King's Cross station? Or seen "North by Northwest"? They must have > seen "Superman". Or passed the corner of Massachusetts and Park > Avenues in Arlington Heights, Massachusetts, where the four-faced > analog clock is once again showing the correct time? > http://www.panoramio.com/photo/9595676 > > Joel > > >> On the other hand, they were preparing to go somewhere with a friend >> their age, and the friend said, "Hey, we better get going. It's >> almost >> fifty." Took me a moment to figure out that she meant 00:50, which >> the >> adults in the family would have called "ten of..." or "ten to..." > > I would have taken longer than a moment. > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 21:40:57 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:40:57 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 12:30 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a > single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:01 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> >> Reminiscent of questions like >> >> "What's he gonna pay? Two men to do the same job?" >> >> -- >> -Wilson > Relatable, as it were, to (at least in New Yorkese): "Who do you think you are? ANYway?" LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 22:27:05 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:27:05 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The OED has Uncle Tomming with a first citation in 1947. Uncle Toming n. (also Uncle Tomming) 1947 S. Lewis Kingsblood Royal x. 52 Why, you gold-digging, uncle-tomming, old, black he-courtesan! Here is a relevant cite in 1933: Cite: 1933 March 18, The Pittsburgh Courier, Views and Reviews by George S. Schuyler, Page 10, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (ProQuest) Negroes responsible for the ballyhoo about conditions being so good down South that Negroes who escaped should return there, are merely Uncle Tomming in the hope that it will please the white folks. There are many earlier instances of "Uncle Tomming" with multiple overlapping senses. An "Uncle Tomming" troupe is a theatrical group that performs "Uncle Tom's Cabin". "Uncle Tomming" also refers to performing as part of such a troupe. Garson On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: >> Green?s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite >> for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating >> could probably be improved on by a systematic search. > > Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are > unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, > but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term > "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or > later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) > > An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 > books.google.com > Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview > But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can > afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their > "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them > "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... > > http://books.google.com/books?id=1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=tomming#v=snippet& > > > Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The > first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but > there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle > Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or > later. > > The Negro in America > books.google.com > Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view > And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them > for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling > them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by > suspecting them of being ... > > http://books.google.com/books?id=vTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=Tomming#search_anchor > > Worldcat has an entry that says: > The Negro in America > Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal > Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] > > But another edition was published in 1964: > 1. The Negro in America. > With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. > Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > >> >> According to the late-great: >> >> "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may >> _tom out_ on yo' ass." >> -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't >> Crap! (Laff Records) >> >> I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. >> >> >> >> -- >> -Wilson >> ----- >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint >> to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. >> -Mark Twain >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:11:59 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:11:59 -0700 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <201108272040.p7RB9hX4004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama > blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames > Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed > "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional > Republicans." yes, yes, that's the point for the posting to come -- on the intended structure, with high attachment. but the sentence as written invites (the preposterous) low attachment, yielding a potential ambiguity that involves the argument structure of "blame". so i used that to lead into a discussion of the various argument structures for "blame". the original sentence was just an entry point into the larger discussion. > The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems > analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an > adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish > army invades Persia". i was simply assuming this in my posting, treating the "Congress Republicans" variant as irrelevant to the point i was talking about. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:18:13 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:18:13 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271741.p7RAu7dW007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially > apparent: _"These critters an't like white folks ?."_, but I have the > impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. Even if it could be shown that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the cited instance was meant as a racist slur against the innocent colored, how could that possibly be in the way of demonstrating that, as used TODAY, the word _critter_ is a "racist" slur? Well, if _moist_ can be made into an obscenity merely as the consequence of The Man's deciding that it is, what can prevent _critter_ from in like manner being made into a "racist" slur, e.g. "a derogatory term used in the United States by Americans of European ancestry in spite or in contempt of the American Negro." To paraphrase Pryor, "Is that 'lexicographic' enough for your ass?" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:24:37 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:24:37 -0400 Subject: Crash blossom of the week (thanks to Michael Quinion) Message-ID: WORLD WIDE WORDS ISSUE 751 Saturday 27 August 2011 A headline from the Expatica Netherlands RSS feed on 20 August, Alan Buck reports, was "Pope reaches out to abuse victims amid protests" [Nice to see there's some opposition, anyway!] LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:26:02 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:26:02 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially >> apparent: _"These critters an't like white folks ?."_, but I have the >> impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. > > Even if it could be shown that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the cited > instance was meant as a racist slur against the innocent colored, how > could that possibly be in the way of demonstrating that, as used > TODAY, the word _critter_ is a "racist" slur? > > Well, if _moist_ can be made into an obscenity merely as the > consequence of The Man's deciding that it is I thought the complaints came from The Woman, or some of them. > , what can prevent > _critter_ from in like manner being made into a "racist" slur, e.g. "a > derogatory term used in the United States by Americans of European > ancestry in spite or in contempt of the American Negro." > > To paraphrase Pryor, "Is that 'lexicographic' enough for your ass?" > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:27:09 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:27:09 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108272005.p7RB9hVs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: To me, the equivalent expression that I find to be quite common is "This software is, what, 9 years old?" In this case, it's obvious that the question is something like "This software is 9 years old--is that right?" and "what" is completely superficial, other than suggesting the "is that right?" part. But it does not carry the actual meaning--that we are suppose to divine from the entire structure. It's practically a question by assumption--which is what I tried to convey by +[qualifier]. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:30 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > Are you inserting the first question mark prosodically? I would expect a > > single sentence in both cases... What's==is+[qualifier] > > > > I'm not sure what you mean. > > IAC, _What's this software? ??_ was written in a post to a software > site. _What's he gonna pay? ??_ I heard. > > I'd have expected, "What's he gonna _do_? _Pay_ two men to do the same > job?" > > In the former case, I'd have expected "What's this software_'s age_? > Like 9 years old?" > > Or something like that. > -- > -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:28:52 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:28:52 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: <201108272040.p7RAu7oa007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Turkey army invades Persia on a holiday. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama > blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames > Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed > "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional > Republicans." The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems > analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an > adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish > army invades Persia". > > Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:31:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:31:03 -0400 Subject: Hurricanes In-Reply-To: <201108271441.p7RB9hP2004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > I was fully expecting you to reminisce about the hurricane of '38, Wilson. The so-called "hurricane" had not yet brought itself to anyone's attention, back in the elder time, Joel. ;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:35:42 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:35:42 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108271910.p7RB9hUs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we refer to something as "neologism"? VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an > example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca > blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan > Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that > can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about > three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like > it. > > It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to > antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is > not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have > checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she > happens to dislike. > > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:38:02 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:38:02 -0400 Subject: An 1838 sighting of the "brass monkey" expression In-Reply-To: <201108271425.p7RB9hOs004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Funny, just a week ago I asked a friend how old the expression "cool as a cucumber" might be. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Bonnie Taylor-Blake < b.taylorblake at gmail.com> wrote: > > The OED cites Melville's 1847 use of "It was 'ot enough to melt the > nose h'off a brass monkey" as a very early instance of the use of this > "brass monkey" expression. > > For what it's worth, here's one from 1838: > > Old Knites was as cool as a cucumber, and would have been so > independent of the weather, which was cold enough to freeze the nose > off of a brass monkey. > > (From "Stray Leaves from a Straggler's Note Book: A Heroic Woman and > a Womanish Hero," *The Morning Herald* [New York, New York], 30 May > 1838, p. 2.) > > -- Bonnie > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:42:38 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:42:38 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 7:35 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a > "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we > refer to something as "neologism"? > > VS-) Don't know, but I like the idea of one passing into the status of "paleologism". LH > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > >> >> I don't know how old something can be before we start considering it an >> example of the Recency Illusion, but I noticed that in the Lingua Franca >> blog at the CHE (contributors to which include Geoff Pullum and Allan >> Metcalf), Lucy Ferriss writes about the "neologism" _relatable_ 'that >> can be related to'. She mentions its newness ("I first noticed it about >> three years ago"; "this neologism"; etc.), and in general doesn't like >> it. >> >> It is, however, in OED, first attested in 1965 (I haven't tried to >> antedate it further). Is 46 years still new enough that its recency is >> not illusory? I'm not sure. I do think, though, that she could have >> checked OED or asked a linguist before blogging about some new word she >> happens to dislike. >> >> >> http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/08/26/im-relatable-youre-relatable/ >> >> Jesse Sheidlower >> OED >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:43:06 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:43:06 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272326.p7RB9haE004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A glance at HDAS suggests just how common "crispy critter" was among Vietnam War writers. IIRC, the cereal appeared around 1964. JL On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "critter" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 27, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Douglas G. Wilson > wrote: > >> There is one instance in which a race-restrictive sense is superficially > >> apparent: _"These critters an't like white folks ?."_, but I have the > >> impression that the word itself is still nonspecific here. > > > > Even if it could be shown that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the cited > > instance was meant as a racist slur against the innocent colored, how > > could that possibly be in the way of demonstrating that, as used > > TODAY, the word _critter_ is a "racist" slur? > > > > Well, if _moist_ can be made into an obscenity merely as the > > consequence of The Man's deciding that it is > > I thought the complaints came from The Woman, or some of them. > > > , what can prevent > > _critter_ from in like manner being made into a "racist" slur, e.g. "a > > derogatory term used in the United States by Americans of European > > ancestry in spite or in contempt of the American Negro." > > > > To paraphrase Pryor, "Is that 'lexicographic' enough for your ass?" > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jparish at SIUE.EDU Sat Aug 27 23:47:25 2011 From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:47:25 -0500 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108271939.p7RAu7km007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Jonathan Lighter wrote: > In regard to the usage of H. B. Stowe, readers of pulp westerns of a few > generations ago will recall the frequent use of "critter" as a vaguely > dismissive term for any human being. > One might also point to the more recent popularity of the word "congresscritter". Jim Parish ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sat Aug 27 23:49:57 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:49:57 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272343.p7RB9hb4004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: But surely that was a joke on "fried" insects rather than any kind of ethnic slur... No? A deep-fried soft-shell crab is a "crispy critter". Electric bug lamps create "crispy critters"--although these were invented a bit later. Moths caught in light fixtures are "crispy critters", etc. Given that deep-fried and grilled insects and other "critters" are not uncommon in Southeast Asia, this sounds fairly typical of what one would expect from war humor. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > A glance at HDAS suggests just how common "crispy critter" was among > Vietnam > War writers. > > IIRC, the cereal appeared around 1964. > > JL ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 28 00:05:03 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:05:03 -0700 Subject: "critters" Message-ID: to add to the mix: lots of sites on "creepy critters" (reptiles, ambhibians, slugs, leeches, insects, spiders, scorpions, etc.), specifically directed at kids, who are fascinated with these creatures. educational and fun. (my grand-daughter loves this stuff.) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 00:06:13 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:06:13 -0400 Subject: Dick, Tom and Harry Message-ID: Under Cheney 2. 2. In some passages it is associated with Philip and Cheny (also Philip, > Hob, and Cheny): a phrase found from 16th c. in the sense of ?Dick, Tom, and > Harry?; see Philip n. Under Philip n. Phrases: 1. Philip and Cheyney (also Philip, Hob, and Cheyney): see Philip and > Cheyney n., Philip, Hob, and Cheyney n. For Philip and Cheney: 1. Ordinary people, taken at random; = Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry at Tom > n.1 1a. > 2. A kind of worsted or woollen cloth of ordinary quality. Cf. cheyney n. Finally, for Philip, Hob and Cheney: = Philip and Cheyney n. Cf. Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry at Tom n.1 1a. Does that mean that there is an entry for "Tom, Dick, and Harry"? No! 1. a. A familiar shortening of the Christian name Thomas; often a generic > name for any male representative of the common people; esp. in Tom and Tib > (cf. Jack and Gill at gill n.4 2a); Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry , any men > taken at random from the common run; Blind Tom, blind-man's-buff. [That's the same Tom n.1 that has Uncle Tom under 1.f.] Dick n.1. 1.a. also redirects to Tom n.1 1.a.: 1. a. A familiar pet-form of the common Christian name Richard. Hence > generically (like Jack) = fellow, lad, man, especially with alliterating > adjectives, as desperate, dainty, dapper, dirty. Tom, Dick and Harry: any > three (or more) representatives of the populace taken at random; see also > Tom, Dick, and (or or) Harry at Tom n.1 1a; clever Dick: a clever or smart > person; usu. ironical: a ?know-all?; also attrib. Why not just have a separate Tom, Dick and Harry entry and a Dick, Tom and Harry one with redirect to Tom, Dick and Harry? A "familiar shortening of Thomas" and a "familiar pet-form of Richard" simply don't explain what "every Tom, Dick and Harry" means. And it's not merely "any men taken at random", but rather "ordinary people", "anyone". It's not about being random, but rather about being ubiquitous. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 00:24:45 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:24:45 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272343.p7RB9hb4004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A quick Wiki look: Crispy Critters was a breakfast cereal, which was re-issued by Post Cereals > in 1987 after having been tested unsuccessfully during the 1960s. This > second attempt to popularize this cereal was also unsuccessful and it was > discontinued shortly thereafter. > The cereal consisted of individual pieces that were akin to miniature > animal crackers in their shape, appearance, taste and texture. OK, neither 1964 nor 1987 sounds like a good year to try out the cereal, given the alternative context. This is worse than the apocryphal "Nova". 1960s commercial is here: http://goo.gl/FA9KP 1987 here: http://goo.gl/PNQud and http://goo.gl/IEvXY (boy and girl versions) Then, there is this: http://www.crispycritterslasvegas.com/ > Crispy Critters is a pest control and termite inspection company in Las > Vegas, NV. We are proud to offer the most trustworthy and professional > service in Las Vegas. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > A glance at HDAS suggests just how common "crispy critter" was among > Vietnam > War writers. > > *IIRC, the cereal appeared around 1964.* > > JL > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 00:43:53 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 20:43:53 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108272327.p7RB1rAB016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:27 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > "This software is, what, 9 years old?" It's obvious. Once that it has been pointed out.;-) I prefer 'This software is, what? Like, 9 years old?" But that's merely difference in taste, not a difference in substance. My congratulations on your perspicacity! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 01:07:24 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:07:24 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108272335.p7RAu7vm007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:35 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a > "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we > refer to something as "neologism"? > Most likely, it depends upon the person. After all, "Self is the measure of all things," as the saying goes. If it's a neologism to *me*, then, clearly, it's a neologism. Q.E.D. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 01:10:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:10:25 -0400 Subject: "critter" In-Reply-To: <201108272326.p7RB9haE004066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:26 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > I thought the complaints came from The Woman, or some of them. Oh, please! The Woman can't do *anything*, unless The Man says that she can.;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 28 02:25:13 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 22:25:13 -0400 Subject: "critters" In-Reply-To: <36C47409-8E71-41D3-A1B4-1789FD25921E@stanford.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 27, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > to add to the mix: lots of sites on "creepy critters" (reptiles, ambhibians, slugs, leeches, insects, spiders, scorpions, etc.), specifically directed at kids, who are fascinated with these creatures. educational and fun. > > (my grand-daughter loves this stuff.) > > arnold > > ?????????????????????????????? Am I misrembering, or wasn't there a gummy snack that came in boxes called "creepy critters" that was popular oh (calculating kids' ages) around 1990 or shortly thereafter? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 28 02:59:49 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 22:59:49 -0400 Subject: Crash blossom of the week (thanks to Michael Quinion) In-Reply-To: <253CCD76-CDF1-4B76-88EF-551EE03DCB7D@yale.edu> Message-ID: At 8/27/2011 07:24 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >WORLD WIDE WORDS ISSUE 751 Saturday 27 August 2011 > >A headline from the Expatica Netherlands RSS feed on 20 August, Alan >Buck reports, was > >"Pope reaches out to abuse victims amid protests" > >[Nice to see there's some opposition, anyway!] I'm tempted to say, beware out for the priestly hand reaching out to the abused. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From dwhause at JOBE.NET Sun Aug 28 03:07:34 2011 From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 22:07:34 -0500 Subject: "critter" Message-ID: Yeah, war humor=galgenhumor. I can't imagine any of us having been interested in fried or grilled bugs, so, while the referrants were black, it was charring, not melanin we were joking about. ----- Original Message ----- From: "victor steinbok" But surely that was a joke on "fried" insects rather than any kind of ethnic slur... No? A deep-fried soft-shell crab is a "crispy critter". Electric bug lamps create "crispy critters"--although these were invented a bit later. Moths caught in light fixtures are "crispy critters", etc. Given that deep-fried and grilled insects and other "critters" are not uncommon in Southeast Asia, this sounds fairly typical of what one would expect from war humor. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 28 03:19:51 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:19:51 -0400 Subject: auteur of the day: anti-clockwise (and counter-clockwise) In-Reply-To: <9559B796-9FF9-44CE-930D-3265A88E079E@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 8/27/2011 05:33 PM, Spanbock/Svoboda-Spanbock wrote: >They've seen NXNW (although I'm trying to remember a scene with a >clock?) I don't remember precisely if the clock is shown. After Thornhill flees from the UN building, he attempts to buy a ticket for the 20th Century Limited. The ticket seller stalls him, he becomes suspicious, and he walks off while the ticker seller is phoning the police. Given that the scene must have taken place on the main concourse (IIR the terminal C), I have to believe Hitchcock would have introduced it by showing the iconic clock. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Sun Aug 28 03:23:14 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:23:14 -0400 Subject: reversed "blame" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, perhaps my only request is, use a better example (that is, one that would confuse me more)! :-) Joel At 8/27/2011 07:11 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: >On Aug 27, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > > Why all the fuss about this particular headline? I read "Obama > > blames Congress Republicans on bus tour" as "Obama blames > > Congressional Republicans on bus tour", with at worst a poorly placed > > "on bus tour" -- "Obama, on bus tour, blames Congressional > > Republicans." > >yes, yes, that's the point for the posting to come -- on the >intended structure, with high attachment. but the sentence as >written invites (the preposterous) low attachment, yielding a >potential ambiguity that involves the argument structure of "blame". > >so i used that to lead into a discussion of the various argument >structures for "blame". the original sentence was just an entry >point into the larger discussion. > > > The "Obama blames Congress Republicans" seems > > analogous to the use in headlines of a place-name noun instead of an > > adjective in cases like "Turkey army invades Persia" vs. "Turkish > > army invades Persia". > >i was simply assuming this in my posting, treating the "Congress >Republicans" variant as irrelevant to the point i was talking about. > >arnold > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 06:35:36 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 02:35:36 -0400 Subject: transfer--quick observation Message-ID: I was checking "transfer" in OED because I spotted a 1908 football use--one that's still quite common in non-American references to moves or exchanges of players between teams--but it's not antedating the current OED entry (1895). But I notices something else. 2. d. The transference of a worker or player from one location, sphere, > sports club, etc., to another; a change of place of employment within an > organization. 1895 Football News (Nottingham) 2 Nov. 1/6 It is stated that the Forest > have offered ?70 for Bruce's transfer. > 1923 J. D. Hackett Labor Terms in Managem. Engin. May, Transfer, the > shifting of a worker from one occupation to another. These two are not quite equivalent and I'm wondering if their origins are related (aside from the fact that both refer to removal of personnel from one location and placing in another, with a common verbal ancestor). For one, in US use these are "translated" differently--the former is a trade, the latter--a reassignment, even within the narrow sports context. Even a baseball "transfer" between the major league club and one of its farm teams or between farm teams is termed "reassignment" (with occasional "transfer" also heard). When an organization--such as a school district--investigates the conduct of one of its employees and does not wish to let the employee to remain in the same position, they "reassign" the employee to a different position--or the employee accepts "reassignment". Still, occasionally, there may be an interdepartmental "transfer"--although "transfer" usually refers to money, not people (see transfer n. 4.a.). But any exchange from one team to another--either for another player or for cash or for "considerations"--is a "trade". Interestingly, in global football (outside Major League Soccer) all transfers are made for cash--i.e., a player goes to a new team and the old team gets cash compensation. Even when the original contract has expired, a move to a new team is still often referred to as "free transfer" (meaning that the new team has no cash obligations to the old team). Because it is the league that formally makes all transfers between the MLS and foreign teams, the MLS clubs are insulated from transfers--but, internally, within the MLS, they make trades, not transfers. In short, I'm wondering if these two uses should be split up. On a less interesting note, there are two meanings of "transfer" that are not covered in the OED. When purchasing a "vacation" or some other package, the terms of the package usually specify whether "airport transfers" are or are not included. If they are included, that usually implies that the passenger is given not only airline tickets, but also a voucher to be presented to a transfer agency (bus, taxi, train, etc.). In common understanding, it is this voucher or the charges that this voucher carries (that would have to be paid separately) that is referred to as "transfer", not the physical conveyance that it covers. The second usage is purely US. In fact, it was one of the first US-specific English words that I might have learned. I am referring to bus transfers in systems where one can obtain a paper ticket or voucher that allows a passenger to board another bus or train for no charge or a discount rate within a specified time period. These paper tickets are on the way out as systems go with electronic ticketing, but they used to be quite common, e.g., in Chicago and NYC. But the "transfer" was the piece of paper--ticket or voucher--that permitted the conveyance from one route to another. I found no equivalent for either of these two "transfers" in the OED. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 08:14:38 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 04:14:38 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108272227.p7RAu7tO007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: [Uncle Tom, n. 1922 --> 1920 --> 1909? --> 1908?] Tom/Tomming and Uncle Tom/Uncle Tomming should be tracked separately, although, of course, it's not an easy task. Note, in particular, OED tom v. Etymology: < Tom n.1 > 1. trans. To address familiarly as ?Tom?. nonce-use. > 1900 S. J. Weyman Sophia xxiv, ?You may Tom me, you don't alter it?, > he answered. > 2. intr. [ < Tom n.1 1f] To behave in an ingratiating and servile way to > someone of another (esp. white) race. Also to tom it (up) . U.S. slang. > 1963 L. Bennett in W. King Black Short Story Anthol. (1972) 161 They > say you are going to chicken out, Papa.? They're betting you'll ?Tom?. > 1972 M. J. Bosse Incident at Naha ii. 94 Virgil just smiled, Tomming > it up. > 1976 Public Opinion Q. XXXIX. 527 The respondent ?accommodates?, or to > use the colloquial term, ?toms?, in order to get through the racial > interaction with minimal tension. > 3. intr. To practise prostitution, to behave promiscuously; also, to have > sexual intercourse in such a context. Also to tom (it) around . slang. > 1964 Z. Progl Woman of Underworld iii. 35 They were perfectly willing > to go ?tomming? on the streets to earn a few quid, but I never could. > 1968 ?J. Ross? Diminished by Death i. 14 She's just tomming around. > 1973 J. Rossiter Manipulators ix. 102 This woman.? Is she tomming it > around with the local villains? > 1981 A. Sewart Close your Eyes & Sleep xviii. 181 What was she doing? > Tomming, to put it bluntly. She was having it off with a bloke. > > Derivatives > > ?tomming n. > 1968 J. Lock Lady Policeman ii. 12 A prostitute was a ?tom??and to > practise prostitution was ?tomming?. > 1973 Black World May 44 Afrikan People all over the world Conscious, > unconscious, struggling, sleeping, Resisting, tomming, killing the enemy. > 1981 ?J. Ross? Dark Blue & Dangerous ix. 55 His own tomming around had > given him a charitable view of casual sex. Note that tom n.1 1f does reference "Uncle Tom", so the verb is linked to its origin, even though the overarching etymology note omits that little detail (v. 1. is of a different cloth and is irrelevant to the rest of the post). Now, for my money, v. 3. and the derivative "noun" tomming are both derived from v. 2 and not some hypothetical "Tom" that parallels the hypothetical "John". The timing certainly fits. Now, 1922 sounds awfully late for early "Uncle Tom" references, even for noun. Here's one earlier, but it doesn't seem quite right: http://goo.gl/bHE6M Current Literature. Volume 45 (6). December 1908 Mr. Stringer's Arraignment of the "Canada Fakers". p. 644/2 > Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound being used in this man-hunt; > and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer asserts, "in the country of > which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are not found there, and it would > be as foolish to import them as it would be to bring in an army of Uncle Toms > to gather cotton from the Moose River bottoms." Then Mr. White represents > the Ojibways and the Chippewas as engaged in deadly strife, which is just as > reasonable, Mr. Stringer opines, as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks and > Canadians, of New Yorkers and Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas are > one people. Note that this is not quite the same slur, but rather a juxtaposition between "Uncle Toms" and "gather[ing] cotton" from Moose River bottoms that Mr. Stringer (the critic) finds incongruous. The issue here is inability to grow cotton at a Canadian location and "Uncle Toms" are thrown in for color (no pun intended). I thought a more extended passage might set the context: "We see the same tendency to dish up a goulash of dilettante details spiced > with sentiment when Sir Gilbert turns historical and has General Wolfe 'eye' > his men in the boats at the turn of the tide in the St. Lawrence (on the > night preceding Quebec's fall) when that night has already been described as > pitch dark, and when it is plain that these men were so many, many hundred > feet away." > Mr. Stringer confesses that he approaches the blunders of Stewart Edward White > with a feeling akin to trepidation, not, he explains, because Mr. White is > the master of a forceful and fluent style, but because "so august a > personage as the Washington enemy of the nature faker himself has placed on > Mr. White the seal of his complete approval." Yet blunders there are, and > not a few. The very plot of "The Silent Places" is, in Mr. Stringer's > judgment, based upon a fallacy. This story describes the prolonged and > relentless pursuit of a defalcating Indian by two hired agents of the > Hudson's Bay Company; but "it is not and never was the custom of the > company," says Mr. Stringer, "to expend good money for the active pursuit of > delinquents." The mere "posting," or black-listing, of any defalcator at the > different trading places of the company has been all that was necessary to > bring him to book as a rule. Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound > being used in this man-hunt; and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer > asserts, "in the country of which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are > not found there, and it would be as foolish to import them as it would be to > bring in an army of Uncle Toms to gather cotton from the Moose River > bottoms." Then Mr. White represents the Ojibways and the Chippewas as > engaged in deadly strife, which is just as reasonable, Mr. Stringer opines, > as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks and Canadians, of New Yorkers and > Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas are one people. > The same sort of blunders are discerned in Stewart Edward White's > "Conjurer's House," and are all attributed by Mr. Stringer to "the passion > to make the trails of the north either always picturesque or always tragic." There is a bunch of nice points here, starting with "dish[ing] up goulash of dilettante details"; "black-listing" as posting notices of "defalcators" (embezzlers?)--no OED listing suggests that anyone on the black-list ought to be caught but merely rendered unemployable; "Gothamites" matched up with "New Yorkers"--making of a nice post-dating citation; and the mention of "Canucks" that the OED, for some reason, finds "In U.S. usage, gen. derogatory" (clearly not even remotely the connotation here). All of these under one very tidy roof. However, the main one for citing it here--Uncle Toms--appears to fail. It is obvious that the reference here is to blacks, but there is no hint of the additional connotation of being subservient or servile. The only reason that this reference is there is to point to the absurdity of blacks picking cotton at "Moose River bottoms"--it's not clear where the conflict lies, but it is surely not in their being excessively subservient. The opposite is true of another 1908 Uncle Tom reference. This one is in Punch, but it identifies a proper name--fictitious, but referring to a specific person, just like its antecedent. But IMO the usage of this name is exactly matching the derogatory general use. I only submit the link because the entire text should be considered in this analysis: http://goo.gl/Byd49 The particularly odd thing about this is that it's English, not US, but its origin appears to be in minstrel show versions of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Does this one deserve at least a bracketed treatment in the OED? The best certain antedating I can get right now is 1920. http://goo.gl/PG3Rp The Herald and Presbyter. A Presbyterian Family Paper. Volume 91(32). Cincinnati, OH: August 11, 1920 New York Letter. By Rev. Clarence C. Reynolds. p. 6/3 > "... The Uncle Tom Negro has got to go, and his place must be taken by the > new leader of the Negro race. That man will not be a white man with a black > heart, nor a black man with a white heart, but a black man with a black > heart." There is a transitional piece that may well be important in the history of "Uncle Tom". http://goo.gl/QAPG8 The International Socialist Review. Volume 9(12). June 1909 The Economic Aspects of the Negro Problem. VIII. The Negro Problem from the Negro's Point of View. By I. M. Robbins. pp. 985-7 > Besides, Mrs. Stowe's types are the complex types produced by two hundred > years of slavery. It would have been extremely interesting to enter the > inner world of that infuriated negro, whom the negro dealer had caught in > the jungle of wildest Africa, and brought him over, chained in the dark and > ill-smelling bunker of the ship, to the distant land, where he was sold to > work the rest of his life in the marshy rice fields, or the sun-baked cotton > plantations. It would have been highly instructive to follow up the > evolution of that wild beast into the mellow and faithful Uncle Tom of a > century later. But this psychologic problem never had the good fortune to > find its scientific investigator. > In the glorious days of slavery, that is during the first third of the last > century, the white south was firmly convinced that it was the destiny of the > negro both, according to God's will, and the dictum of science, to be > nothing else than a faithful Uncle Tom. That the negro was satisfied with > his lot was the strongest article of faith--of the white man. > Such assertions may even be heard to-day, though perhaps not so frequently > as forty years ago. The famous South Carolina Senator Tillman, perhaps one > of the strongest negro haters in the South, in theory at least, once > remarked that the main proof that they deserved the treatment accorded to > them was found just in this: that no other race would tolerate such > treatment. ... > If all through the period of slavery negroes energetically voiced their > protest against slavery not so much by words as by acts, they were no less > anxious, immediately after the emancipation, to express their conviction > that they were no lower, nor worse, than the white folks. Uncle Tom was not > the ideal of those few negroes of that period who had ideals at all. It was > rather Toussaint L'Ouverture, that full-blooded negro, who succeeded in > creating a negro republic in Haiti. Although Stowe--and, indeed, her book--is mentioned, the use of "Uncle Tom" is more symbolic and representative than literary and specific. VS-) On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > The OED has Uncle Tomming with a first citation in 1947. > Uncle Toming n. (also Uncle Tomming) > 1947 S. Lewis Kingsblood Royal x. 52 Why, you gold-digging, > uncle-tomming, old, black he-courtesan! > > Here is a relevant cite in 1933: > > Cite: 1933 March 18, The Pittsburgh Courier, Views and Reviews by > George S. Schuyler, Page 10, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (ProQuest) > > Negroes responsible for the ballyhoo about conditions being so good > down South that Negroes who escaped should return there, are merely > Uncle Tomming in the hope that it will please the white folks. > > There are many earlier instances of "Uncle Tomming" with multiple > overlapping senses. An "Uncle Tomming" troupe is a theatrical group > that performs "Uncle Tom's Cabin". "Uncle Tomming" also refers to > performing as part of such a troupe. > > Garson > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > >> Green?s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite > >> for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating > >> could probably be improved on by a systematic search. > > > > Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are > > unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, > > but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term > > "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or > > later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) > > > > An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 > > books.google.com > > Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview > > But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can > > afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their > > "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them > > "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=tomming#v=snippet& > > > > > > Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The > > first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but > > there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle > > Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or > > later. > > > > The Negro in America > > books.google.com > > Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view > > And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them > > for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling > > them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by > > suspecting them of being ... > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=vTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=Tomming#search_anchor > > > > Worldcat has an entry that says: > > The Negro in America > > Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal > > Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] > > > > But another edition was published in 1964: > > 1. The Negro in America. > > With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. > > Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > > > >> > >> According to the late-great: > >> > >> "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may > >> _tom out_ on yo' ass." > >> -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't > >> Crap! (Laff Records) > >> > >> I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> -Wilson > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 09:12:15 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 05:12:15 -0400 Subject: open-ended hurricane headline Message-ID: http://goo.gl/vWPMr Irene hammers North Carolina but damage not as bad, officials say "Not as bad" as what? As expected? As it could have been? As it has been in the past? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 28 13:55:33 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 09:55:33 -0400 Subject: open-ended hurricane headline In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > http://goo.gl/vWPMr > Irene hammers North Carolina but damage not as bad, officials say > > > "Not as bad" as what? As expected? As it could have been? As it has been in > the past? > as in The Last Days. That's Bible Belt country, right? ;-) LH, amid the flickering lights, ceiling leaks, and flying tree limbs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 14:24:46 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:24:46 -0400 Subject: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" In-Reply-To: <201108280044.p7RAu72Q007194@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The original software quote seems so normal to me that I'm still not sure what the problem is. JL On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: "What's this software? Like, 9 years old?" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:27 PM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > "This software is, what, 9 years old?" > > It's obvious. Once that it has been pointed out.;-) > > I prefer > > 'This software is, what? Like, 9 years old?" > > But that's merely difference in taste, not a difference in substance. > > My congratulations on your perspicacity! > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 14:28:51 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:28:51 -0400 Subject: "Uncle Tomming" In-Reply-To: <201108280814.p7S84dNr013781@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Tom," v. 3, seem to me far more likely to be from "tomcatting," regardless of sex, than from "Uncle-Tomming," regardless of race. JL On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 4:14 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: "Uncle Tomming" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [Uncle Tom, n. 1922 --> 1920 --> 1909? --> 1908?] > > Tom/Tomming and Uncle Tom/Uncle Tomming should be tracked separately, > although, of course, it's not an easy task. Note, in particular, OED tom v. > > Etymology: < Tom n.1 > > 1. trans. To address familiarly as =E2=80=98Tom=E2=80=99. nonce-use. > > 1900 S. J. Weyman Sophia xxiv, =E2=80=98You may Tom me, you don't > al= > ter it=E2=80=99, > > he answered. > > > > > 2. intr. [ < Tom n.1 1f] To behave in an ingratiating and servile way to > > someone of another (esp. white) race. Also to tom it (up) . U.S. slang. > > 1963 L. Bennett in W. King Black Short Story Anthol. (1972) 161 They > > say you are going to chicken out, Papa.=E2=80=A5 They're betting you'll = > =E2=80=98Tom=E2=80=99. > > 1972 M. J. Bosse Incident at Naha ii. 94 Virgil just smiled, Tomming > > it up. > > 1976 Public Opinion Q. XXXIX. 527 The respondent > =E2=80=98accommodat= > es=E2=80=99, or to > > use the colloquial term, =E2=80=98toms=E2=80=99, in order to get through > = > the racial > > interaction with minimal tension. > > > > > 3. intr. To practise prostitution, to behave promiscuously; also, to have > > sexual intercourse in such a context. Also to tom (it) around . slang. > > 1964 Z. Progl Woman of Underworld iii. 35 They were perfectly > willin= > g > > to go =E2=80=98tomming=E2=80=99 on the streets to earn a few quid, but I > = > never could. > > 1968 =E2=80=98J. Ross=E2=80=99 Diminished by Death i. 14 She's just > = > tomming around. > > 1973 J. Rossiter Manipulators ix. 102 This woman.=E2=80=A5 Is she > to= > mming it > > around with the local villains? > > 1981 A. Sewart Close your Eyes & Sleep xviii. 181 What was she > doing= > ? > > Tomming, to put it bluntly. She was having it off with a bloke. > > > > Derivatives > > > > =CB=88tomming n. > > 1968 J. Lock Lady Policeman ii. 12 A prostitute was a =E2=80=98tom= > =E2=80=99=E2=80=A5and to > > practise prostitution was =E2=80=98tomming=E2=80=99. > > 1973 Black World May 44 Afrikan People all over the world Conscious, > > unconscious, struggling, sleeping, Resisting, tomming, killing the enemy. > > 1981 =E2=80=98J. Ross=E2=80=99 Dark Blue & Dangerous ix. 55 His own > = > tomming around had > > given him a charitable view of casual sex. > > > > Note that tom n.1 1f does reference "Uncle Tom", so the verb is linked to > its origin, even though the overarching etymology note omits that little > detail (v. 1. is of a different cloth and is irrelevant to the rest of the > post). Now, for my money, v. 3. and the derivative "noun" tomming are both > derived from v. 2 and not some hypothetical "Tom" that parallels the > hypothetical "John". The timing certainly fits. > > Now, 1922 sounds awfully late for early "Uncle Tom" references, even for > noun. > > Here's one earlier, but it doesn't seem quite right: > > > http://goo.gl/bHE6M > Current Literature. Volume 45 (6). December 1908 > Mr. Stringer's Arraignment of the "Canada Fakers". p. 644/2 > > > Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound being used in this man-hunt; > > and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer asserts, "in the country of > > which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are not found there, and it > woul= > d > > be as foolish to import them as it would be to bring in an army of Uncle > = > Toms > > to gather cotton from the Moose River bottoms." Then Mr. White represents > > the Ojibways and the Chippewas as engaged in deadly strife, which is > just= > as > > reasonable, Mr. Stringer opines, as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks > = > and > > Canadians, of New Yorkers and Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas > = > are > > one people. > > > > Note that this is not quite the same slur, but rather a juxtaposition > between "Uncle Toms" and "gather[ing] cotton" from Moose River bottoms that > Mr. Stringer (the critic) finds incongruous. The issue here is inability to > grow cotton at a Canadian location and "Uncle Toms" are thrown in for color > (no pun intended). > > I thought a more extended passage might set the context: > > "We see the same tendency to dish up a goulash of dilettante details spiced > > with sentiment when Sir Gilbert turns historical and has General Wolfe > 'e= > ye' > > his men in the boats at the turn of the tide in the St. Lawrence (on the > > night preceding Quebec's fall) when that night has already been > described= > as > > pitch dark, and when it is plain that these men were so many, many > hundre= > d > > feet away." > > Mr. Stringer confesses that he approaches the blunders of Stewart Edward > = > White > > with a feeling akin to trepidation, not, he explains, because Mr. White > i= > s > > the master of a forceful and fluent style, but because "so august a > > personage as the Washington enemy of the nature faker himself has placed > = > on > > Mr. White the seal of his complete approval." Yet blunders there are, and > > not a few. The very plot of "The Silent Places" is, in Mr. Stringer's > > judgment, based upon a fallacy. This story describes the prolonged and > > relentless pursuit of a defalcating Indian by two hired agents of the > > Hudson's Bay Company; but "it is not and never was the custom of the > > company," says Mr. Stringer, "to expend good money for the active > pursuit= > of > > delinquents." The mere "posting," or black-listing, of any defalcator at > = > the > > different trading places of the company has been all that was necessary > t= > o > > bring him to book as a rule. Then, too, Mr. White speaks of a bloodhound > > being used in this man-hunt; and "there are no bloodhounds," Mr. Stringer > > asserts, "in the country of which Mr. White so movingly writes. They are > > not found there, and it would be as foolish to import them as it would > be= > to > > bring in an army of Uncle Toms to gather cotton from the Moose River > > bottoms." Then Mr. White represents the Ojibways and the Chippewas as > > engaged in deadly strife, which is just as reasonable, Mr. Stringer > opine= > s, > > as to speak of the conflicts of Canucks and Canadians, of New Yorkers and > > Gothamites; for the Ojibways and Chippewas are one people. > > The same sort of blunders are discerned in Stewart Edward White's > > "Conjurer's House," and are all attributed by Mr. Stringer to "the > passio= > n > > to make the trails of the north either always picturesque or always > tragi= > c." > > > There is a bunch of nice points here, starting with "dish[ing] up goulash > o= > f > dilettante details"; "black-listing" as posting notices of "defalcators" > (embezzlers?)--no OED listing suggests that anyone on the black-list ought > to be caught but merely rendered unemployable; "Gothamites" matched up with > "New Yorkers"--making of a nice post-dating citation; and the mention of > "Canucks" that the OED, for some reason, finds "In U.S. usage, gen. > derogatory" (clearly not even remotely the connotation here). All of these > under one very tidy roof. > > However, the main one for citing it here--Uncle Toms--appears to fail. It > i= > s > obvious that the reference here is to blacks, but there is no hint of the > additional connotation of being subservient or servile. The only reason > tha= > t > this reference is there is to point to the absurdity of blacks picking > cotton at "Moose River bottoms"--it's not clear where the conflict lies, > bu= > t > it is surely not in their being excessively subservient. > > The opposite is true of another 1908 Uncle Tom reference. This one is in > Punch, but it identifies a proper name--fictitious, but referring to a > specific person, just like its antecedent. But IMO the usage of this name > i= > s > exactly matching the derogatory general use. I only submit the link because > the entire text should be considered in this analysis: > > http://goo.gl/Byd49 > > The particularly odd thing about this is that it's English, not US, but its > origin appears to be in minstrel show versions of Uncle Tom's Cabin. Does > this one deserve at least a bracketed treatment in the OED? > > The best certain antedating I can get right now is 1920. > > http://goo.gl/PG3Rp > The Herald and Presbyter. A Presbyterian Family Paper. Volume > 91(32). Cincinnati, OH: August 11, 1920 > New York Letter. By Rev. Clarence C. Reynolds. p. 6/3 > > > "... The Uncle Tom Negro has got to go, and his place must be taken by > th= > e > > new leader of the Negro race. That man will not be a white man with a > bla= > ck > > heart, nor a black man with a white heart, but a black man with a black > > heart." > > > > There is a transitional piece that may well be important in the history of > "Uncle Tom". > > http://goo.gl/QAPG8 > The International Socialist Review. Volume 9(12). June 1909 > The Economic Aspects of the Negro Problem. VIII. The Negro Problem from the > Negro's Point of View. By I. M. Robbins. pp. 985-7 > > > Besides, Mrs. Stowe's types are the complex types produced by two hundred > > years of slavery. It would have been extremely interesting to enter the > > inner world of that infuriated negro, whom the negro dealer had caught in > > the jungle of wildest Africa, and brought him over, chained in the dark > a= > nd > > ill-smelling bunker of the ship, to the distant land, where he was sold > t= > o > > work the rest of his life in the marshy rice fields, or the sun-baked > cot= > ton > > plantations. It would have been highly instructive to follow up the > > evolution of that wild beast into the mellow and faithful Uncle Tom of a > > century later. But this psychologic problem never had the good fortune to > > find its scientific investigator. > > In the glorious days of slavery, that is during the first third of the > la= > st > > century, the white south was firmly convinced that it was the destiny of > = > the > > negro both, according to God's will, and the dictum of science, to be > > nothing else than a faithful Uncle Tom. That the negro was satisfied with > > his lot was the strongest article of faith--of the white man. > > Such assertions may even be heard to-day, though perhaps not so > frequentl= > y > > as forty years ago. The famous South Carolina Senator Tillman, perhaps > on= > e > > of the strongest negro haters in the South, in theory at least, once > > remarked that the main proof that they deserved the treatment accorded to > > them was found just in this: that no other race would tolerate such > > treatment. > > ... > > If all through the period of slavery negroes energetically voiced their > > protest against slavery not so much by words as by acts, they were no > les= > s > > anxious, immediately after the emancipation, to express their conviction > > that they were no lower, nor worse, than the white folks. Uncle Tom was > n= > ot > > the ideal of those few negroes of that period who had ideals at all. It > w= > as > > rather Toussaint L'Ouverture, that full-blooded negro, who succeeded in > > creating a negro republic in Haiti. > > > Although Stowe--and, indeed, her book--is mentioned, the use of "Uncle Tom" > is more symbolic and representative than literary and specific. > > VS-) > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Garson O'Toole > wrote: > > > > > The OED has Uncle Tomming with a first citation in 1947. > > Uncle Toming n. (also Uncle Tomming) > > 1947 S. Lewis Kingsblood Royal x. 52 Why, you gold-digging, > > uncle-tomming, old, black he-courtesan! > > > > Here is a relevant cite in 1933: > > > > Cite: 1933 March 18, The Pittsburgh Courier, Views and Reviews by > > George S. Schuyler, Page 10, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (ProQuest) > > > > Negroes responsible for the ballyhoo about conditions being so good > > down South that Negroes who escaped should return there, are merely > > Uncle Tomming in the hope that it will please the white folks. > > > > There are many earlier instances of "Uncle Tomming" with multiple > > overlapping senses. An "Uncle Tomming" troupe is a theatrical group > > that performs "Uncle Tom's Cabin". "Uncle Tomming" also refers to > > performing as part of such a troupe. > > > > Garson > > > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 4:24 PM, Garson O'Toole > > wrote: > > > Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > > >> Green=E2=80=99s Dictionary of Slang (2010) has a 1954 cite > > >> for the verb tom, in the relevant sense, and that dating > > >> could probably be improved on by a systematic search. > > > > > > Here are two leads for the verb form "Uncle Tomming". These are > > > unverified matches in Google Books. The first has a GB date of 1944, > > > but the GB pointer really leads to seventh printing in 2009. The term > > > "Uncle Tomming" might be in the 1944 edition, the 1962 edition, or > > > later. (Maybe Green already checked these leads.) > > > > > > An American dilemma: the Negro problem and modern democracy - Page 774 > > > books.google.com > > > Gunnar Myrdal, Sissela Bok - 1944 - 936 pages - Google eBook - Preview > > > But the common Negroes do feel humiliated and frustrated. And they can > > > afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them for their > > > "kowtowing," "pussy-footing," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling them > > > "handkerchief heads" and "hats ... > > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3D1S8XwCM-EYcC&q=3Dtomming#v=3Dsnippet= > & > > > > > > > > > Here is the same text in another book with multiple editions. The > > > first has a GB date of 1956 and a WorldCat copyright date of 1948, but > > > there were multiple editions so the date is uncertain. The term "Uncle > > > Tomming" might be present in some 1948 edition, or a 1964 edition or > > > later. > > > > > > The Negro in America > > > books.google.com > > > Arnold Marshall Rose, Gunnar Myrdal - 1956 - 324 pages - Snippet view > > > And they can afford to take it out on their leaders by defaming them > > > for their "kowtowing," "pussyfooting," and "Uncle Tomming"; by calling > > > them "handkerchief heads" and "hats in hand," and particularly by > > > suspecting them of being ... > > > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=3DvTt2AAAAMAAJ&q=3DTomming#search_anch= > or > > > > > > Worldcat has an entry that says: > > > The Negro in America > > > Author: Arnold Marshall Rose; Gunnar Myrdal > > > Publisher: Boston : Beacon Press, 1956 [Copyright 1948] > > > > > > But another edition was published in 1964: > > > 1. The Negro in America. > > > With a foreword by Gunnar Myrdal. > > > Published: New York, Harper & Row [1964] > > > > > >> > > >> According to the late-great: > > >> > > >> "He [a black policeman, when in the company of a white partner] may > > >> _tom out_ on yo' ass." > > >> -Richard Pryor, ca. 1967, in person; 1971, on the album, Hope I Don't > > >> Crap! (Laff Records) > > >> > > >> I find that sign to be more embarrassing than appalling. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> -Wilson > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Sun Aug 28 16:42:11 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 09:42:11 -0700 Subject: -ify and -ification Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pepsification/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 16:48:15 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:48:15 -0400 Subject: Recency illusion: today's example In-Reply-To: <201108280108.p7RB1rDn016225@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The issue here is that the word disappeared and reappeared. If neologism is incorrect, then what is the correct term for these phoenix words? (OT -- "phoenix" is a nounjective, as I understand it) DanG On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Wilson Gray > Subject: Re: Recency illusion: today's example > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 7:35 PM, victor steinbok wrote: >> "Three yeas ago" is clear--and is wrong. But what's the shelf life of a >> "neologism" before it is no longer a neologism? That is, how long can we >> refer to something as "neologism"? >> > > Most likely, it depends upon the person. After all, "Self is the > measure of all things," as the saying goes. If it's a neologism to > *me*, then, clearly, it's a neologism. Q.E.D. > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 16:54:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 12:54:25 -0400 Subject: "all things + NP" In-Reply-To: <201108131936.p7CMKc3t022552@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Fox News Channel recommends heading to their website for "everything Fox News Channel Online." JL On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 3:36 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: "all things + NP" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > CNN promises to keep you posted on "all things campaign politics." > > JL > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Sun Aug 28 18:59:36 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 11:59:36 -0700 Subject: Hibachi - North America meaning missing Message-ID: The OED has one meaning of hibachi (matching the Japanese), but the North American meaning (a shichirin) is missing. The difference is described at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibachi. The NA meaning is the one I grew up with. Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 19:26:54 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 15:26:54 -0400 Subject: "telegraph pole" antedating Message-ID: The OED has "telegraph pole" only from 1851. 1846 _Cleveland [O.] Herald_ (Aug. 22) [Gale 19th Century U.S.American Newspapers]: He was...too tall for anything but a telegraph pole. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 20:08:19 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 16:08:19 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: <201108262238.p7QJWNJF002577@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Clear but not transparent? A distinction I cannot as yet fathom. DanG On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > > Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly it's the latter that was intended. > > LH > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 28 20:51:57 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 16:51:57 -0400 Subject: on reversed "substitute" (intransitive version) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 4:08 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > Clear but not transparent? A distinction I cannot as yet fathom. > DanG > > ? I wasn't trying to distinguish "clear" and "transparent", but rather what was/would have been transparent (or clear) to me on hearing/reading it and what must have clearly been intended by the speaker/writer, given the context. What was not transparent to me is that "When you substitute him" could really mean "When you take him out and put in someone else" (as opposed to "When you put him in and take out someone else"). What is clear is that that's what the writer/speaker intended to convey, given the overall context. This is a fact about the difference between the two dialects. Before I became familiar with the British use of "knock up", if I had come across a female character in a movie or book saying to her male counterpart "Please knock me up in the morning" it would not have been transparent to me that she meant 'please awaken me in the morning by knocking', yet clearly, that's what she would have meant (especially if she had uttered it with a British accent). Or perhaps a more natural example: the first time I came across someone saying something like "If she was wearing her seatbelt she may have survived the accident", I could only interpret it as suggesting that the speaker was agnostic as to the subject's survival; to express the counterfactual, presupposing that she didn't survive, I would have expected "?she might have survived the accident". But now I recognize that for the "new" dialect (don't know how new it actually is), "may" can be used to express this counterfactual ! or subjunctive meaning as well. Hope that's clearer and/or more transparent. LH > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > >> >> Reminds me; the original from Cris Carter was actually "When you substitute him", not "if". Same difference as they say (but I usually don't). For me, these are not at all transparent; I only process them as "If/When you substitute him (for someone else)", not "If/When you substitute (someone else for) him", although clearly it's the latter that was intended. >> >> LH >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Sun Aug 28 21:23:00 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:23:00 -0400 Subject: gamify, gamification Message-ID: Arnold Zwicky wrote > Subject: -ify and -ification > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pepsification/ Arnold Zwicky wrote on his blog: > A whole lotta ification going on. A popular term that I did not see in the ADS archive is gamification. It has a Wikipedia entry, a dedicated blog, and a conference: The Gamification Summit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification http://gamification.org/wiki/Gamification Gamification is the concept that you can apply the basic elements that make games fun and engaging to things that typically aren't considered a game. In theory you can apply Game Design to almost anything including Education, Health, Work and more. See Gamification by Industry. http://gamification.org/wiki/Encyclopedia http://gsummit.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From ronbutters at AOL.COM Sun Aug 28 23:09:04 2011 From: ronbutters at AOL.COM (Ron Butters) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:09:04 +0000 Subject: open-ended hurricane headline Message-ID: Not as bad as having to live in The North? Sent from my Droid Charge on Verizon 4GLTE ------Original Message------ From: Laurence Horn To: Date: Sunday, August 28, 2011 9:55:33 AM GMT-0400 Subject: Re: [ADS-L] open-ended hurricane headline On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:12 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > http://goo.gl/vWPMr > Irene hammers North Carolina but damage not as bad, officials say > > > "Not as bad" as what? As expected? As it could have been? As it has been in > the past? > as in The Last Days. That's Bible Belt country, right? ;-) LH, amid the flickering lights, ceiling leaks, and flying tree limbs ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 29 00:34:55 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:34:55 -0400 Subject: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: <1C074717-AE75-46BF-8CF3-520E1523A4CC@stanford.edu> Message-ID: I always thought one of the more creative examples of what you and Geoff call "playful" word formation was "Californication", which?before it became a Red Hot Chili Peppers song or a series on Showtime?was a word of warning used by folks in Oregon (and elsewhere?) urging wariness if not strong resistance toward unbridled growth lest their pristine coastline turn into (shudder) L.A. Mark II. Checking on wiki, I find that the warning was far more widespread, and the coinage far older (I remember it from the early 1980s) than I knew: ================ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(word) Californication is a portmanteau of the words California and fornication, appearing in Time on May 6, 1966 and written about on August 21, 1972, additionally seen on bumper stickers in the U.S. states of Arizona, Nevada, Colorado, Oregon, Idaho, and Washington. It was a term popular in the 1970s and referring primarily to the "haphazard, mindless development [of land] that has already gobbled up most of Southern California", which some attributed to an influx of Californians to other states in the Western United States. [?] ================= LH On Aug 28, 2011, at 12:42 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/28/pepsification/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 00:38:57 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:38:57 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" Message-ID: I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: "One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as light as a feather and as white as snow." Googling tells me that Sarah Orne Jewett wrote "and preferred an Indian pudding to pie crust that was, without exaggeration, half a quarter high." A book on Texas court cases has "The sun was about half a quarter high when the defendant left the witness." "On either side of the seams at the bottom of the cap one sees the black and white stripes attached to and at the sides of the black neck-pieces; and the border round the bottom of the cap, which is just under half a quarter high," From a Swedish (?) journal, 1953. I also find "The Womens shooes are half a quarter high at the heel, set on with little nails, in so much that they can hardly go in them." This is in "The voyages and travells of the ambassadors sent by Frederick Duke of Holstein ...", by Adam Olearius (1669). So this can't be a literal reference to the size of a U.S. quarter. What does "half a quarter high" mean? A reference to an eighth of some unspecified unit? (But for both the sun and pies/shoes?) Or something metaphorical? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 03:45:08 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:45:08 -0700 Subject: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: <201108290035.p7SApW6n010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > > I always thought one of the more creative examples of what you and Geoff = > call "playful" word formation was "Californication", which=97before it = > became a Red Hot Chili Peppers song or a series on Showtime=97was a word = > of warning used by folks in Oregon (and elsewhere?) urging wariness if = > not strong resistance toward unbridled growth lest their pristine = > coastline turn into (shudder) L.A. Mark II. > > Checking on wiki, I find that the warning was far more widespread, and = > the coinage far older (I remember it from the early 1980s) than I knew:... fascinating. i did mention "Californication" (the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the tv show) in http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/creepitude/ but i didn't trace it back any further than these two vectors. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 04:33:48 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:33:48 -0700 Subject: gamify, gamification In-Reply-To: <201108282123.p7SB4XkQ025262@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 28, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > A popular term that I did not see in the ADS archive is gamification... thanks, Garson. added as a comment on my posting. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 04:42:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:42:03 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet Message-ID: http://goo.gl/a3SmM -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 04:45:15 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:45:15 -0400 Subject: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: <201108290345.p7SApWHb010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: This post is *not* about _reify_ and _reification_! WTF?!!! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 11:45 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: ? ? ? American Dialect Society > Poster: ? ? ? Arnold Zwicky > Subject: ? ? ? Re: -ify and -ification > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 28, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Larry Horn wrote: > >> >> I always thought one of the more creative examples of what you and Geoff = >> call "playful" word formation was "Californication", which=97before it = >> became a Red Hot Chili Peppers song or a series on Showtime=97was a word = >> of warning used by folks in Oregon (and elsewhere?) urging wariness if = >> not strong resistance toward unbridled growth lest their pristine = >> coastline turn into (shudder) L.A. Mark II. >> >> Checking on wiki, I find that the warning was far more widespread, and = >> the coinage far older (I remember it from the early 1980s) than I knew:... > > fascinating. ? i did mention "Californication" (the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the tv show) in > ? http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/creepitude/ > but i didn't trace it back any further than these two vectors. > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 05:29:39 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 01:29:39 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" In-Reply-To: <201108290039.p7SBEX8T026015@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Here is an instance of "half an eighth high" that might be useful in formulating a hypothesis. Title: He That Eateth Bread With Me Author: Hersilia A. Mitchell Keays Publisher: McClure, Phillips & Co., 1904 But listen - I'll make you forget all about my being only five feet one inch and half an eighth high. http://books.google.com/books?id=fooOAAAAYAAJ&q=eighth#v=snippet& The book "He That Eateth Bread With Me" was also serialized in the newspaper Jersey Journal and the phrase above appeared on July 14, 1906 on page 8 (GenealogyBank page 10). On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Joel S. Berson" > Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: > > "One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry > and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as > light as a feather and as white as snow." > > Googling tells me that Sarah Orne Jewett wrote "and preferred an > Indian pudding to pie crust that was, without exaggeration, half a > quarter high." > > A book on Texas court cases has "The sun was about half a quarter > high when the defendant left the witness." > > "On either side of the seams at the bottom of the cap one sees the > black and white stripes attached to and at the sides of the black > neck-pieces; and the border round the bottom of the cap, which is > just under half a quarter high," From a Swedish (?) journal, 1953. > > I also find "The Womens shooes are half a quarter high at the heel, > set on with little nails, in so much that they can hardly go in > them." This is in "The voyages and travells of the ambassadors sent > by Frederick Duke of Holstein ...", by Adam Olearius (1669). > > So this can't be a literal reference to the size of a U.S. quarter. > > What does "half a quarter high" mean? A reference to an eighth of > some unspecified unit? (But for both the sun and pies/shoes?) Or > something metaphorical? > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 10:11:45 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:11:45 +0800 Subject: Stupefication Message-ID: In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" in a class assignment, ignorant to the fact that it should have been "stupefaction". The seminarian teaching the class held up my paper and laughed at me (what a jerk), offering no explanation as to the reason behind this strange morphological form. Google tells me I'm not the only one using this word -- it's even in many headlines. But I still have no idea what is going on morphologically. Anyone care to elucidate? -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 11:57:33 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 07:57:33 -0400 Subject: choppergate Message-ID: Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: http://goo.gl/6y8Be > Sacked Channel 9 'Choppergate' reporter Melissa Mallet denies any > wrongdoing There is a US version of "Choppergate" as well: http://goo.gl/5TavP NJ Lawmaker Calls 'Choppergate' Hearing > The Democrat chairwoman of the Assembly Homeland Security Committee says > she'll convene a hearing into New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie's use of a > state police helicopter to fly to his son's baseball game. The NJ story simmered about two weeks earlier but ultimately faded. The Australian one has just percolated over the weekend. There are some oddities in the Australian article aside from the scandal's name, so let me cover the whole thing. The basis of the scandal is multiple instances when Brisbane's Channel 9 reporters were not where the screen caption reported they were. Generally, this was connected to the station's helicopter--hence the name "Choppergate". Here's a companion story: http://goo.gl/tHsbW > Choppergate scandal began with quiet backyard barbecue There are some lines in both stories that might be of interest--at least, they sounded odd enough to me to deserve a mention. I'm certainly not up on my Strine. (Second article first.) 1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: "Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a bit weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the Channel 9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a bit more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being somewhere else. The rival network investigated and confirmed that this appeared to be regular practice at Channel 9. Two reporters and a news producer had been sacked, and a news executive resigned--depending on whom you believe, either in protest to the sacking of others or because of obvious involvement or because he "was pushed". I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". 4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. Also > attrib. orig. U.S. Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ redirects to barbecue n. 4.) 2. throwing snags on the barbie: Channel 7 reporter Peter Doherty was throwing some snags on the barbie at > his suburban Bardon home just before 6pm on Saturday when he noticed the > Nine chopper overhead OED seems to have this one covered: snag n.4==sausage, but the whole expression is just cute, so I though it to be worth a mention. 3. aviaton tragics: It was simple detective work by a pair of self-proclaimed "aviation tragics" > that would eventually claim the scalps of four Channel 9 staff, including > the station's most senior news executive. To be honest, I'm not even sure what to make of this. A bit further down the article mentions that one of the employees for Channel 7 is an "aviation buff", but I'm not sure these are quite the same thing. 4. rostered on: On Sunday, Breusch was rostered on and mentioned that he had heard what he > believed to be the Nine chopper hovering over his house the previous > evening. The verb is perfectly ordinary, but the combination with the preposition and passive is a bit unusual. Or not. All this means is that the guy was on duty. 5. weekend reader: Just after 6pm, Nine's weekend reader Eva Milic crossed to young gun > reporter Cameron Price hovering "near Beerwah". This meaning of reader==anchor is not covered in OED. Also note that the second article has "weekend presenter": In the second instance, reporter Cameron Price, who has also been fired, was sitting on 9's Mt Coot-tha helipad when weekend presenter Eva Milic declared he was near the search site. 6. cross, n. and v.: For v., see 5. above. Also: Just after 6pm, seemingly true to their word, Nine crossed "live" to young > reporter Melissa Mallet hovering "near Beerwah" where police were hunting > for the body of the murdered teenager. For n.: While hovering above Brisbane in a helicopter for a live cross about the > case, an on-screen caption falsely stated she was "near Beerwah". and Transmission problems forced her to head back towards Brisbane for a live > cross to the 6pm news bulletin, she said. Neither is in the OED. Nor is cross n.==cross-over nor cross n.==off-road sporting event (running, motorcycle, bicycle events) nor cross, n.==cross-examination and cross v.==cross-examine nor cross==cross-stitch nor cross==cross-cut. Obviously, "live cross" as above and "on cross"==during cross-examination are also not listed. Also note a response from another network station: http://goo.gl/yckxA > A Channel 9 Melbourne spokeswoman was yesterday keen to reiterate Nine News > Melbourne had never faked a live cross. 7. young gun: See above under 5. Is this ==hot-shot? Simply ==young and eager? Either way, no hint in the OED. Cf. Brat Pack's Young Guns and Young Guns II. 8. vision: Seven's vision would later confirm the Nine chopper was stationary on its > helipad. Not even sure what that means. But here's a clue: http://goo.gl/bWbRi > The reason we know this is that Channel Seven recorded it from a camera > mounted on their transmission tower nearby. ... > And with the camera which we have on the tower - we use it film all sorts > of things, bushfires, storm fronts rolling through, all sorts of things. It > gets pretty rotated. > > So at about ten to six on Sunday night we flicked it across and there was > the helicopter sitting there. We thought it's not going to make Beerwah. 9. nightly bulletin: It was unusual for a chopper to circle Mt Coot-tha during the nightly > bulletin, unless a major story was breaking nearby. and Up at Channel 9 that evening, a staff member preparing for the nightly > bulletin updated the network's Twitter feed. ==evening news (US). Nothing out of the ordinary and bulletin==broadcast report is in OED. But it's not quite the same--the OED listing is literally a report, with only four examples, two each from 1925 Times and from 1938. The meaning of "scheduled TV news program" seems to be more recent. (Both UK and Aust.?) 10. claim the scalp: See under 3. above. OED only has the narrow b. fig. as the symbol of a victory gained. In this case, there is no "victory"--simply a "victim". 11. Coordination and generic "their": "I do feel let down. The viewer puts their trust in us and we certainly do > put our trust in other people as well behind the scenes," she told *The > Sunday Mail*. "Viewers put" would have made this easier, but this appears to be a fairly common switch--not sure if intentional or not. 12. weigh up: "The legal advice I had was pretty positive and reassuring that there was a > case, but I obviously had to weigh up some options." Yet another version of a verb with thatched on preposition where just the garden variety would do. That about does it. What I find particularly interesting is that most Australian news reports that I've seen prior to this appear to be far less distinctive in their lexicon. Whether it's ABC (Australian, not US), Sydney or Melbourne papers or even News.com.au, usually the text is perfectly readable, with only a few minor quirks. On this occasion, the combination of local expressions, including TV news jargon, has been quite jarring. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 13:16:31 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:16:31 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" In-Reply-To: <201108290529.p7SBEXGr026015@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: A couple of minor thoughts. First, in terms of area, there is--currently, certainly not 150 years ago--a standard "sheet". Backing sheet sizes are often referred to as "half-sheet" and "quarter-sheet". A "full-sheet" is the size of a standard jelly-roll pan (a.k.a. cookie sheet--well, not quite, but close enough) or a rectangular cake pan in a commercial bakery. Occasionally, both the pans and the cakes are referred to as "halfs" and "quarters", rather than "half-sheet" or "quarter-sheet". But this is not the meaning Joel found. Second, the "quarter-high" need not refer to an absolute height (quarter of a fixed quantity), although it may refer to the diameter of the quarter-dollar coin that's been constant for quite a few years, or possibly even a quarter-inch. But consider this excerpt: http://goo.gl/PLJrb Eaches or pieces order fulfillment, design, and operations handbook. By David E. Mulcahy. 2007 > > A pick position bin box with a half- or quarter-high front barrier is > precut or cut by a replenishment employee. This type of box has two side > walls, a rear wall, open or closed top, closed and solid bottom, and half- > or quarter-high open front. To provide strength and rigidity to the bin, > tape is used to secure the bottom flaps, or specially designed box inserts > are secured in precut holes. To create a half- or quarter-high open bin > front on a vendor carton, a replenishment employee uses a knife to cut a > square, smiley face, or V in the carton front. With a cut section removed > from front of the carton, this creates a half- or quarter-high front barrier > to retain SKUs that have a tendency to slide from a pick position. This > method provides increased bin rigidity and stability and a location for SKU > or pick position identification, increased SKU quantity in a pick position, > and open space for easy and quick SKU transfer from a pick position to a CO > container. Aside from a somewhat bizarre title, the passage appears to describe a standard display case box. The simple idea is exemplified by standard gum and candy stack boxes at supermarket checkouts and by cut-out boxes one usually sees on display shelves in Costco (most of top and front removed to display the contents, but also to keep it in place with the front "barrier"). We also get an example from "The Maine Sardine Industry" (USDA, January 18, 1921). http://goo.gl/u3HhH > PROPOSED SPECIFICATIONS. > The following specifications, based on the division of the pack into four > subdivisions, is offered as a working basis for a standardization of the > pack of Maine sardines. > Standards. > Cans.?Quarter size only, plain or decorated. > Fish.?Not less than 5 to a can, preferably 6. Steamed; not necessarily > eviscerated, though this would insure a better product; carefully packed > brights up, to make a neat and attractive package. > Oil.?Prime, summer yellow cottonseed, or corn, not less than 75 per cent of > a gallon (3 quarts) to a case of 100 cans. > Extra Standards. > Cans.?Quarter, high-quarter, and half sizes, plain or decorated. etc. This is very different usage, however, from earlier absolutes. For absolutes, consider (1793) [weights omitted] http://goo.gl/ZM9gD > TABLE > Shewing what Weight Horses are to carry, that run for Give-and-take Plates, > from Twelve to Fifteen high; Fourteen Hands carrying Nine Stone. > TWELVE HANDS--- > And half a quarter of an inch--- > And a quarter--- > A quarter and half a quarter--- > Half an inch--- > Half an inch and half a quarter--- > Three quarters of an inch--- > Three quarters and half a quarter--- > One inch--- > One inch and half a quarter--- > One inch and a quarter--- > One inch, a quarter, and half a quarter--- etc. Similar tables appear in Racing Calendars for 1775 and 1786. An 1832 cookbook does similarly with pounds rather than inches: http://goo.gl/IMr9y > CREAM ITALIAN. (1) Boil a pint and a half of milk in a stew pan, then add > to it the peel of a young lemon, some coriander seed, a bit of cinuamon, > rather more than > half a quarter of a pound of sugar, and two or three grains of salt; let it > boil till Imlf it consumed; then let it stand to cool, and have ready in > another stewl?n a little Hour, beat up with the yolks of six egg*; stir it > by degrees into the cream; strain tt through a sieve, and put it in the dish > lor table, placing the dish in some hot water over the itre till the cream > is set. Before serving, brown with a salamander. > RATAFIA. Pound, with a little rose-water, two ounces of blanched sweet > almonds, and half a quarter of a pound of ratafia cakes, add the > well-beaten yolks of six, and the whites of two eggs, a pint of thick cream, > two glasses of white wine, and one ounce of pounded loaf sugar. Bake it in a > dish, lined with puff paste, for threequarters of an hour. etc. Division of property also has similar language (1845) http://goo.gl/aA2LJ p. 251 > At this time, and in pursuance of the said Act, with that of Explanation, > the following grants were made of property situated within the district of > the present inquiry: To Thomas Lloyd, Carrowbeg and Ardsallagh, 122A.; > Ardmore, one quarter; Cushina, half a quarter; Faus and Ardcock, 2 trines, > 200A. ; Cloinshaghan, one trine, 88A.; ... etc. On a different page, you may also find pp. 242-3 > In July 1617, the Earl of Kildare had a grant in fee of (inter alia) > Trienfaus, being one-third of the four quarters of Faus, as parcel of the > estate of Connor Roe, Mac Teigue Mac Owen Mac Dermott Roe, attained; ... ; > Lecarrownehinch, 1/2 quarter, being one-fourth of Corbally; two quarters, > three parts in five, of the half-quarter of Laveroe; ... Similarly, for cutting cloth (1825) http://goo.gl/OYoev p. 309 > HOW TO CUT OUT SHIRTS. > Yard-wide Irish. > Sixteen yards make six shirts. The length for each body is two yards, and > the width three-quarters, one nail and a half. Twelve yards make six bodies. > Before the lengths for the bodies are cut off, take half a quarter and half > a nail off the width of the cloth, which piece furnishes all the parts > belonging to the six shirts (except eight sleeve-pieces, which are supplied > from the sleeves) and is cut out as follows:?The width makes half a collar, > a quarter, half quarter, and half a nail long. Four yards, three quarters, > and half a quarter make the twelve half collars. One sleeve-gusset in the > width, first taking off the selvage, will be half a quarter, and near half a > nail square. One yard and three quarters make the twelve gussets. The cloth > is not wide enough for the width of two neck or side gussets; but it will > make the width of one, and a slip a nail wide, which will be the width of > the piece for the inside of the sleeves. Two yards and a quarter in length > therefore will make twenty-four small gussets a nail and a half square, and > four sleeve-pieces and a half, half a yard long. The width makes the width > of two wristbands or shoulderstraps, the wristbands one quarter long. One > yard and a half will make the six pair. The shoulder-straps one quarter, and > a quarter of a nail long. One yard and a half and two nafls make the six > pair. This exactly uses all the piece of cloth. > Four yards of the Irish cloth make six pair of sleeves, one and a half in > the width of the cloth half a yard long, half a yard and half a quarter > wide, first taking off a slip a nail wide from the width of the cloth for > the eight sleeve-pieces wanting above, which, doubled in eight, makes them > half a yard long, and with the four and a naif cut out before, completes > twelve sleeve-pieces and a halt. This half overplus being a quarter of a > yard in length, serves to cut out hearts for the bosoms. So the language seems to be quite common for at least a century (1740s to 1860s...), but it means different things in different contexts. VS-) On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:29 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > > Here is an instance of "half an eighth high" that might be useful in > formulating a hypothesis. > > Title: He That Eateth Bread With Me > Author: Hersilia A. Mitchell Keays > Publisher: McClure, Phillips & Co., 1904 > > But listen - I'll make you forget all about my being only five feet > one inch and half an eighth high. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fooOAAAAYAAJ&q=eighth#v=snippet& > > The book "He That Eateth Bread With Me" was also serialized in the > newspaper Jersey Journal and the phrase above appeared on July 14, > 1906 on page 8 (GenealogyBank page 10). > > > On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 8:38 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > > > I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: > > > > "One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry > > and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as > > light as a feather and as white as snow." > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 14:48:43 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:48:43 -0400 Subject: OT: -ify and -ification In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see Arnold, unlike Archie, has two front legs that are far enough apart that he can hold down the Shift key at the same time as he strikes a letter key. Evidence below, in signed message. Joel At 8/28/2011 11:45 PM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: ... >fascinating. i did mention "Californication" (the Red Hot Chili >Peppers and the tv show) in > http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/creepitude/ >but i didn't trace it back any further than these two vectors. > >arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 14:51:21 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:51:21 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: >http://goo.gl/a3SmM And for those students who didn't know them already, here they are! Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 14:56:52 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:56:52 -0400 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 06:11 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: >In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" in a class >assignment, ignorant to the fact that it should have been >"stupefaction". The seminarian teaching the class held up my paper >and laughed at me (what a jerk), offering no explanation as to the >reason behind this strange morphological form. Just checking ... the OED does have "stupification", rare, one quotation, 1650. >Google tells me I'm not the only one using this word -- it's even in >many headlines. > >But I still have no idea what is going on morphologically. Anyone >care to elucidate? Yes, please. E.g.: stupefy -> stupefaction (more commonly) reify -> reification Joel >-- >Randy Alexander >Xiamen, China >Blogs: >Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu >Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen >Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 15:14:36 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:14:36 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 07:57 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: > >... > >Here's a companion story: > >http://goo.gl/tHsbW > > > Choppergate scandal began with quiet backyard barbecue > > > > There are some lines in both stories that might be of interest--at least, >they sounded odd enough to me to deserve a mention. I'm certainly not up on >my Strine. (Second article first.) > >1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: > >"Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ > > >Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a bit >weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the Channel >9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a bit >more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the >Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being >somewhere else. "from" = "by, via" here. "From" sense 14.a = Denoting ground, reason, cause, or motive: Because of, on account of, owing to, as a result of, through. Now replaced in some uses by for. >I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or >barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss >why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". > >4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which > > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. Also > > attrib. orig. U.S. > > >Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ >redirects to barbecue n. 4.) Have you ever tried to keep neighbors and passers-by out of your small, private, domestic pastime? See "Monty" panels from about 2 weeks ago.) :-) Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 29 15:23:32 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:23:32 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think it's a sneaky way to teach spelling. Note that "shitfull" is blocked, but "shitful" is just fine. On the other hand, it does seem to present challenges for teaching sex education. LH On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > http://goo.gl/a3SmM > > -- > -Wilson > ----- > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > -Mark Twain > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 15:29:29 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:29:29 -0700 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291011.p7TA06cB010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2011, at 3:11 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > > In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" in a class > assignment, ignorant to the fact that it should have been > "stupefaction". The seminarian teaching the class held up my paper > and laughed at me (what a jerk), offering no explanation as to the > reason behind this strange morphological form. > > Google tells me I'm not the only one using this word -- it's even in > many headlines. > > But I still have no idea what is going on morphologically. Anyone > care to elucidate? given stupefy, stupefication is exactly the form you'd predict from treating -EFY just as a spelling variant of -IFY. for complex historical reasons, verbs in -EFY (only a few of which are at all common) have derived nouns in -EFACTION: liquefaction, putrefaction, rarefaction, stupefaction. plus: satisfaction (satisy), petrifaction (petrify). and rarifaction as a variant of rarefaction. then: -IFY verbs normally have derived nouns in -IFICATION, so there's pressure to bring these odd ones into line, and in fact all of them have -IFICATION variants. for petrifaction, NOAD2 lists petrification as just a variant (and i prefer it, despite the title of George Bernard Shaw's silly one-act play, "Passion, Poison, and Petrifaction"). for the rest, -IFICATION is a non-standard variant, but very very common (in ghits): liquification, putrification, rarification, stupification; even satisfication. arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:37:37 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:37:37 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: <201108291514.p7TAnQi2005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I have no problem with the preposition--it's the two nouns (and perhaps the verb) that bother me. "X spotted from Y" has certain restrictions on X and Y. The restriction is violated on X and Y does not fit the narrative (although it fits the restriction)--unless, that is, a reporter identified the scandal on the spot (and named it) while peering from inside a grill. As for the second--it's called "fence", live with it. VS-) PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that it might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not completely half-witted. On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > > At 8/29/2011 07:57 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > >Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: > > > >... > > > >1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: > > > >"Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ > > > > > >Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a > bit > >weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the > Channel > >9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a > bit > >more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the > >Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being > >somewhere else. > > "from" = "by, via" here. "From" sense 14.a = Denoting ground, > reason, cause, or motive: Because of, on account of, owing to, as a > result of, through. Now replaced in some uses by for. > > > >I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or > >barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss > >why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". > > > >4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which > > > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. > Also > > > attrib. orig. U.S. > > > > > >Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ > >redirects to barbecue n. 4.) > > Have you ever tried to keep neighbors and passers-by out of your > small, private, domestic pastime? See "Monty" panels from about 2 > weeks ago.) :-) > > Joel > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:38:47 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:38:47 -0400 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: <201108291523.p7TAnQj2005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I see "smut" is now a forbidden word. Or maybe only if somebody is Googling for it. JL On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I think it's a sneaky way to teach spelling. Note that "shitfull" is > blocked, but "shitful" is just fine. On the other hand, it does seem to > present challenges for teaching sex education. > > LH > > On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > http://goo.gl/a3SmM > > > > -- > > -Wilson > > ----- > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint > > to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. > > -Mark Twain > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:38:25 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:38:25 -0400 Subject: batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" In-Reply-To: <201108291316.p7TAnQX8014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 9:16 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > somewhat bizarre title Only the title?;-) -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Mon Aug 29 15:40:31 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 07:40:31 -0800 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291457.p7TEutFv017769@listserv.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 29 Aug 2011, at 06:56, Joel S. Berson wrote: > Yes, please. E.g.: > stupefy -> stupefaction (more commonly) > reify -> reification It is my general, slightly improvised [so not deeply checked] understanding that English gets those Latinate and pseudo-Latinate words from three sources: a) from Latin via French (these usually go back to real Latin words that already have a pp in -factus and a noun in -factio - satisfacere (satisfaction) - satifier - satisfy), b) from learned coinings, usually from the 19th century (reify) c) from productive English use of the -ify suffix (speechify, Pepsify, whatever). The latter and usually the middle categories should get Englishified nouns in -(i)fication (using the ablaut fac>fic). This also leads to the mostly applicable rule that verbs in -efy get nouns in -faction and verbs in -ify get nouns in -ification. Chris Waigl -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 15:40:58 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:40:58 -0700 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet In-Reply-To: <201108291523.p7TAnQj6005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:23 AM, Larry Horn wrote: > I think it's a sneaky way to teach spelling. Note that "shitfull" is blocked, but "shitful" is just fine. On the other hand, it does seem to present challenges for teaching sex education. yes, indeed. though the list is a list of banned *words*, it's really a list of banned *concepts*, regardless of the style level of the words used to refer to them. so all of the following are out: clitoris, vagina, penis, anus, ejaculate, orgasm, fellatio, cunnilingus. (intercourse and breast aren't on the list, presumably because the words have non-sexual uses. but if the list isn't applied case-sensitively, then dick is a problem. and so on, as with all such lists.) (note than damn and hell are "bad words", regardless of their uses.) > > On Aug 29, 2011, at 12:42 AM, Wilson Gray wrote: > >> http://goo.gl/a3SmM arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 15:51:23 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:51:23 -0400 Subject: disenfranchised = 'disenchanted (about something political)' Message-ID: In a conversation with Tea Party reps this morning, one of the very highly paid CNN anchors spoke twice about a poll that, according to her, showed that forty percent of Americans were "disenfranchised" by the Tea Party. Elsewhen, Christine O'Donnell recently explained that "I think the Tea Party goes beyond Republicans. It?s Democrats, Independents and Republicans who are disenfranchised with what they see coming out of Washington." : http://www.mediaite.com/tv/christine-odonnell-tea-party-goes-beyond-gop-includes-disenfranchised-dems-and-independents/ JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 16:02:03 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:02:03 -0400 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291011.p7TA06cF010902@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 6:11 AM, Randy Alexander wrote: > In 4th grade at a Catholic school, I used "stupefication" Personally, I'm very much impressed! When I was in 4th grade at a Catholic school, the nun would have reacted as Johnson did to a woman preaching. Assuming that the nun was herself familiar with the word, of course. > what a jerk Even though you describe something that happened dekkids ago, I nevertheless find your restraint admirable! -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 16:11:17 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:11:17 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: <201108291537.p7TAlenu030049@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: "Completely half-witted"?? Is my wit half-full or half empty? DanG On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: choppergate > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have no problem with the preposition--it's the two nouns (and perhaps the > verb) that bother me. "X spotted from Y" has certain restrictions on X and > Y. The restriction is violated on X and Y does not fit the narrative > (although it fits the restriction)--unless, that is, a reporter identified > the scandal on the spot (and named it) while peering from inside a grill. > > As for the second--it's called "fence", live with it. > > VS-) > > PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. > Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that it > might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not > completely half-witted. > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote: > >> >> At 8/29/2011 07:57 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >> >Add another -gate to the list, although this one is fairly minor: >> > >> >... >> > >> >1. Scandal spotted from a BBQ: >> > >> >"Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ >> > >> > >> >Although it's rather clear what this subhed means, the implication is a >> bit >> >weird, as it was not the scandal per se that was "spotted", but the >> Channel >> >9 subterfuge that ultimately caused the scandal--and, even then, it's a >> bit >> >more complicated. Apparently, a reporter for a rival station spotted the >> >Channel 9 helicopter in one location when it was being reported as being >> >somewhere else. >> >> "from" = "by, via" here. "From" sense 14.a = Denoting ground, >> reason, cause, or motive: Because of, on account of, owing to, as a >> result of, through. Now replaced in some uses by for. >> >> >> >I also believe it has already been mentioned that this sense of BBQ or >> >barbecue is not covered in the OED. The closest is 4.a., but I'm at a loss >> >why a "backyard barbecue" has to be a "large social entertainment". >> > >> >4. a. A large social entertainment, usually in the open air, at which >> > > animals are roasted whole, and other provisions liberally supplied. >> Also >> > > attrib. orig. U.S. >> > >> > >> >Shouldn't there be an entry for small, private domestic pastime? (BBQ >> >redirects to barbecue n. 4.) >> >> Have you ever tried to keep neighbors and passers-by out of your >> small, private, domestic pastime? See "Monty" panels from about 2 >> weeks ago.) :-) >> >> Joel >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Mon Aug 29 16:13:17 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:13:17 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 8/29/2011 11:37 AM, victor steinbok wrote: >I have no problem with the preposition--it's the two nouns (and perhaps the >verb) that bother me. "X spotted from Y" has certain restrictions on X and >Y. The restriction is violated on X and Y does not fit the narrative >(although it fits the restriction)--unless, that is, a reporter identified >the scandal on the spot (and named it) while peering from inside a grill. I don't have a problem with the nouns (as well as the preposition). ' "Choppergate" scandal spotted from BBQ ' means to me ' "Choppergate" scandal identified via BBQ '. Although I likely would postpone understanding it until I'd read the story. >As for the second--it's called "fence", live with it. Monty doesn't, if you read him regularly. Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 17:32:41 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:32:41 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: <201108291611.p7TFBqY4014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Can one be half half-witted? Or would that be twice half-witted? Glad someone's paying attention... VS-) On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > > "Completely half-witted"?? > > Is my wit half-full or half empty? > DanG > > > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, victor steinbok > wrote: > > > > PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. > > Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that it > > might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not > > completely half-witted. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 18:01:19 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:01:19 -0700 Subject: for portmanteau lovers Message-ID: http://arnoldzwicky.wordpress.com/2011/08/29/porta-festation/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From zwicky at STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 29 18:13:40 2011 From: zwicky at STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:13:40 -0700 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291529.p7TFBqLs014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:29 AM, i wrote: > for complex historical reasons, verbs in -EFY (only a few of which are at all common) have derived nouns in -EFACTION: > liquefaction, putrefaction, rarefaction, stupefaction. > plus: satisfaction (satisy), petrifaction (petrify). and rarifaction as a variant of rarefaction. > > then: -IFY verbs normally have derived nouns in -IFICATION, so there's pressure to bring these odd ones into line, and in fact all of them have -IFICATION variants. for petrifaction, NOAD2 lists petrification as just a variant (and i prefer it, despite the title of George Bernard Shaw's silly one-act play, "Passion, Poison, and Petrifaction"). for the rest, -IFICATION is a non-standard variant, but very very common (in ghits): > liquification, putrification, rarification, stupification; even satisfication. to complete the spelling complications, all of the following in -EFICATION are attested, most in substantial numbers: liquefication, putrefication, rarefication, petrefication, stupefication (these have the E of the -EFY verb, but the regular -FICATION rather than the exceptional -FACTION) arnold ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 18:38:28 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:38:28 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _voluntell_ Message-ID: Ex-GI from TN: "I didn't *want* to leave you! I was _*voluntold*_ to go back to Iraq!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 29 19:03:56 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:03:56 -0700 Subject: Lo mein (1957) Message-ID: A common-enough dish now, Google Books claims a citation in 1947, though the sentence is not given. The next citation appears to be 1957, and more citations begin to appear in the 1960s. Chinese restaurant menus would likely turn up more. Wikipedia has ??/?? with lou1 min6 as the Cantonese pronunciation. The AHD online has "a Chinese dish of thin noodles stir-fried with vegetables andusually meat or shrimp" though it claims 1970-75 as the date of origin. Merriam-Webster.com has "a Chinese dish consisting of sliced vegetables, soft noodles, and usually meat or shrimp in bite-size pieces stir-fried in a seasoned sauce" with 1970 as the first known use. The online OED does not list it. 1. 1947 - http://ow.ly/6fNs2 "Classic One-Dish Meals," Family Circle, Amo Press 2. 1957 - http://ow.ly/6fO5A "Cue: the weekly magazine of New York life," Cue Publishing Co., page 23 ----- Such dishes as lo mein and lobster yak soong are on the menu and there are family dinners. ----- Benjamin Barrett Seattle, WA ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 20:58:01 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:58:01 -0400 Subject: choppergate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh, and "completely dimwitted" just sounded wrong--what's NOT completely dimwitted? VS-) PS: ;-) On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:32 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > Can one be half half-witted? Or would that be twice half-witted? Glad > someone's paying attention... > > VS-) > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > >> >> "Completely half-witted"?? >> >> Is my wit half-full or half empty? >> DanG >> >> >> >> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 11:37 AM, victor steinbok >> wrote: >> > >> > PS: I miss the "Hollywood Minute", if the connection wasn't obvious. >> > Actually, it's not the Hollywood Minute that I miss--but the fact that >> it >> > might have been one of the last regular sketches on SNL that was not >> > completely half-witted. >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 22:14:45 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:14:45 -0400 Subject: Lyric: _shortage_ = "short circuit" Message-ID: I can't stay on your life support There's a _shortage_ in the switch in "Just Like A Pill" written by Aleicia Beth "P!nk" Moore and Dallas Austin "Shortage" in place of "short circuit" strikes me as rare. I know it only because it was used down home, in NE TX. OTOH, P!nk is from Doylestown, in SE *PA*. So, as usual, Youneverknow. FWIW, P!nk also uses, as heard on VH1's Behind The Music, "I _told_ her _said_ 'You were my inspiration!'" et sim. My wife isn't familiar with either of these. Of course, she's from *North*east PA. That may explain it. -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Mon Aug 29 23:15:55 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:15:55 -0400 Subject: OT: Heard on Judge Greg Mathis's show: "Racism!" Message-ID: Early-thirty-ish white, female speaker, WRT to her accuser, eadem: "She's a racist. She's even a member of the Klan! ? Why, on her Facebook page, she wrote, 'Barack Obama has screwed more people than Tiger Woods'!" Judge Greg, a colored fellow, laughed so hard that tears came into his eyes. Later, he reprised the one-liner, laughed some more, and commented that joking isn't inherently racist, "especially if it's funny!" IMO, the joke's pretty lame. OTOH, suddenly attempting to make heretofore empty and practically non-occurrent words like _tar-baby_ and _critter_ into "racist slurs" is even lamer, a tremendous waste of psychic energy. Like, there's not sufficient genuine racism already in existence? Deal with that! There's no need to hunt everywhere in an effort to discover more of its supposed manifestations, while continuing simply to ignore the real ones. E.g., I wouldn't be surprised to discover white writers saying that they would never have begun to concern themselves with trivialities like "tar-baby" and "critters," if the African-Americans themselves hadn't made a big deal out of them. BTW, there a new, online dating service that advertises itself as catering to "black" singles. Can you believe it?! I'm simply astounded! I'm starting a petition at Change.org asking that these people use the long-since-become-politically-correct "African-American" in place of the antiquated-at-best, racist-at-worst "black." I assume that I have the support of everyone here in this extremely-worthy, bleeding-heart-liberal, anti-racism-ly endeavor. As Richard Pryor stated unequivocally, nearly forty years ago (edited): "I'm not black! I'm [African-American]!" -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 07:11:43 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:11:43 -0400 Subject: baby bump Message-ID: Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. OED is mum on the subject, of course. Wiki is the only dictionary that has anything to say on the subject (and it needs editing--I mean, tummy? seriously?): (informal) The swelling of a woman's tummy in the latter stages of > pregnancy. VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Tue Aug 30 07:31:25 2011 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 00:31:25 -0700 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: <201108300711.p7U6N2I8014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Your message seems to have gotten across. A change dated today brings the Wiktionary entry to: (informal) visible signs of pregnancy, noticeable abdominal swelling in a pregnant woman; freq. used in tabloid coverage of celebrities. BB On Aug 30, 2011, at 12:11 AM, victor steinbok wrote: > Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular > expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press > as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a > couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, > the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. OED is mum on the > subject, of course. > > Wiki is the only dictionary that has anything to say on the subject (and it > needs editing--I mean, tummy? seriously?): > > (informal) The swelling of a woman's tummy in the latter stages of >> pregnancy. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 30 07:43:54 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:43:54 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:11:43AM -0400, victor steinbok wrote: > Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular > expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press > as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a > couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, > the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. OED is mum on the > subject, of course. Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. Jesse Sheidlower OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 08:22:29 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 04:22:29 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: <201108300744.p7TKFtwg005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: > > Draft additions March 2007 > colloq. (orig. Brit.). The protruding abdomen of a visibly pregnant > woman; (hence) an unborn child. Fair. Should "baby bump" be added as a variant? VS-) On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Tue Aug 30 09:17:03 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:17:03 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: <201108300744.p7TKFtwg005820@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 03:11:43AM -0400, victor steinbok wrote: >> Has "baby bump" been mentioned here previously? It seems to be a popular >> expression, initially taken from British tabloids, but now used in US press >> as well, in reference to pregnant public figures. I've seen it used on a >> couple of occasions in more general environments, but, for the most part, >> the targets are celebrities--Beyonce being the latest. Check the archive for discussion in early '08. Lynne Murphy had it as the BrE-to-AmE Word of the Year on her Separated by a Common Language blog. http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com/2008/01/2007s-words-of-year.html >> OED is mum on the subject, of course. > > Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. And Oxford Dictionaries Online added "baby bump" in its May 2011 batch of new entries. http://oxforddictionaries.com/search?newWord=New%20words:%20May%202011 --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 30 10:32:19 2011 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:32:19 -0400 Subject: baby bump In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 04:22:29AM -0400, victor steinbok wrote: > > > > Draft additions March 2007 > > colloq. (orig. Brit.). The protruding abdomen of a visibly pregnant > > woman; (hence) an unborn child. > > > Fair. Should "baby bump" be added as a variant? It would need to go in as a separate entry, it couldn't be a variant. But it's on the list. Jesse Sheidlower OED > VS-) > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 3:43 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: > > > > > Well, we do have _bump_ in this sense. > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > OED > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 13:14:21 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:14:21 -0400 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation Message-ID: Several list members have blogs or participate on blogs that are popular. I have noticed for many months that text is extracted from my blog and copied to other websites. These are primarily spammish websites designed to fool the Google page rank algorithm by manipulating content and links. But I just noticed a phenomenon that is new to me. An entire post on my blog was duplicated on another website. Next, a group of twitter users started to tweet about the duplicate webpage. I believe that each one of these twitter users is a spambot with fake profile and a fake picture. The construction of the twitter agents and the tweets themselves are probably automated. This tweeting could have been done in a way that would have been largely invisible to me, but I discovered it was happening because the tweets actually mentioned the name of my blog. The goal may be to improve the page rank of the duplicate webpage. Is this happening to the blogs of other list members? ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM Tue Aug 30 14:48:09 2011 From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM (Randy Alexander) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:48:09 +0800 Subject: Stupefication In-Reply-To: <201108291813.p7TFBqBq014090@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for these clear explanations! Randy On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Arnold Zwicky wrote: > On Aug 29, 2011, at 8:29 AM, i wrote: > >> for complex historical reasons, verbs in -EFY (only a few of which are at all common) have derived nouns in -EFACTION: >> liquefaction, putrefaction, rarefaction, stupefaction. >> plus: satisfaction (satisy), petrifaction (petrify). ? and rarifaction as a variant of rarefaction. >> >> then: -IFY verbs normally have derived nouns in -IFICATION, so there's pressure to bring these odd ones into line, and in fact all of them have -IFICATION variants. ? for petrifaction, NOAD2 lists petrification as just a variant (and i prefer it, despite the title of George Bernard Shaw's silly one-act play, "Passion, Poison, and Petrifaction"). ? for the rest, -IFICATION is a non-standard variant, but very very common (in ghits): >> liquification, putrification, rarification, stupification; even satisfication. > > to complete the spelling complications, all of the following in -EFICATION are attested, most in substantial numbers: > > liquefication, putrefication, rarefication, petrefication, stupefication > > (these have the E of the -EFY verb, but the regular -FICATION rather than the exceptional -FACTION) > > arnold > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- Randy Alexander Xiamen, China Blogs: Manchu studies: http://www.sinoglot.com/manchu Chinese characters: http://www.sinoglot.com/yuwen Language in China (group blog): http://www.sinoglot.com/blog ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 30 17:28:12 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:28:12 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [ADS-L] batter (or shooes, or the sun) "half a quarter high" Message-ID: As of now I am left only with the supposition that my "batter [that] was half a quarter high as light as a feather and as white as snow" is merely a literal reference to an eighth of some unspecified (but presumably well known to cake- and pastry-makers) unit of length. I think it's not an eighth of an inch (too small) but some longer unit -- perhaps a hand? A unit of measure generally ... er, easily at hand while making pastry. :-) P.S. Separately, I am sending a question about "eighth" and the OED. Joel From: "Joel S. Berson" >I have a letter written around 1842 that contains the following: > >"One day in every week was devoted to the making of cake and pastry >and I have been assured that the batter was half a quarter high as >light as a feather and as white as snow." > >Googling tells me that Sarah Orne Jewett wrote "and preferred an >Indian pudding to pie crust that was, without exaggeration, half a >quarter high." > >A book on Texas court cases has "The sun was about half a quarter >high when the defendant left the witness." > >"On either side of the seams at the bottom of the cap one sees the >black and white stripes attached to and at the sides of the black >neck-pieces; and the border round the bottom of the cap, which is >just under half a quarter high," From a Swedish (?) journal, 1953. > >I also find "The Womens shooes are half a quarter high at the heel, >set on with little nails, in so much that they can hardly go in >them." This is in "The voyages and travells of the ambassadors sent >by Frederick Duke of Holstein ...", by Adam Olearius (1669). > >So this can't be a literal reference to the size of a U.S. quarter. > >What does "half a quarter high" mean? A reference to an eighth of >some unspecified unit? (But for both the sun and pies/shoes?) Or >something metaphorical? > >Joel > >------------------------------------------------------------ >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From Berson at ATT.NET Tue Aug 30 17:51:41 2011 From: Berson at ATT.NET (Joel S. Berson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:51:41 -0400 Subject: "eighth" and the OED Message-ID: The OED's entry on "eighth, adj. and n." can be read, from the absence of quotations, as implying that "eighth" alone as a fraction of something (as contrasted with the ordinal use, "eighth" in a series) might not have come into use until around 1840. An 1842 quotation is in B.n.1.a, "eighth part n. one of eight equal parts into which a quantity may be divided." "Eighth part" (sense A.2) does appear earlier than 1840s (quotations from 1523 to 1660), but in the quotations always with the word "part" present, and always without the final "h". And in B.n.1.a, the earlier quotations there (1557, 1747) use "eight", not "eighth". Is that correct -- "eighth" alone as a fraction of something is as late as the 1840s? Or should I take the "eight" in the early B.n.1.a (part of something) quotes as simply a spelling variant of "eighth"? Should "eighth" as a fraction be given a place equal in prominence to A.1.a. "That comes next in order to the seventh" (that is, the ordinal)? Joel ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 30 19:44:06 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:44:06 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just heard an instance of what the OED terms the "now arch. and dial." pronunciation of this verb, as above, in a traditional ballad, "Poor Ellen Smith" (this version sung by Wilma Lee Cooper). In the relevant verse, "strew" would rhyme perfectly with "goes" if it weren't for the latter's inflection: Some day he'll go home And stay when he goes On poor Ellen's grave Pretty flowers he will strew ["strow"] Curiously, none of the several disparate web-compiled versions of the lyrics of this ballad (which deals with a loafer who was convicted, possibly wrongfully, of the eponymous Ms. Smith's brutal murder) include this verse or the line "flowers he will strew", a string which in fact shows up in Google only once, in a plot summary for Shakespeare's _Cymbeline_. I probably wouldn't have noticed the line myself if we hadn't had this recent thread initiated by Wilson (and Springer's guest). LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU Tue Aug 30 21:48:32 2011 From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:48:32 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: <201108301944.p7UAmXYr012039@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: OED has this as from OE streawian (or streowian). The [stroU] pronunciations come from forms with the diphthong stressed on the second element; any /j/ ghost of the first would disappear after the /r/; Stress-shift, helped by the palatal before, like this also happened for show (cf. earlier shew); sew; and dialectally, ewe and shrew, which give forms from ME /Ou/ in the North of England, Scotland, and the Southwest of England. But there is no general rule telling you what words have /ju/ and what words /oU/ or the like, even on the other side of the pool---Scots can have /Su/ for sew but /j^U/ for ewe (/stru/ sounds good to me, but I suspect many guid aul-fashiont Scots dialects have /str^U/. As for chew, forget it! Chew, chow, and chaw all exist, even over here. Knowing Early Middle English vowel classes doesn't help either: sew had /iu/ (like stew, yew); chew and ewe, /eu/ (like new, brew, and past tenses like blew, knew); show, shrew and strew, /Eu/ (like dew). It! does seem that a preceding palatal, or sometimes /r/, helps the stress shift. But screw, from French, doesn't alternate like this, so you can't scrow something (or someone).,.;;;;; Paul Johnston On Aug 30, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Just heard an instance of what the OED terms the "now arch. and dial." pronunciation of this verb, as above, in a traditional ballad, "Poor Ellen Smith" (this version sung by Wilma Lee Cooper). In the relevant verse, "strew" would rhyme perfectly with "goes" if it weren't for the latter's inflection: > > Some day he'll go home > And stay when he goes > On poor Ellen's grave > Pretty flowers he will strew ["strow"] > > Curiously, none of the several disparate web-compiled versions of the lyrics of this ballad (which deals with a loafer who was convicted, possibly wrongfully, of the eponymous Ms. Smith's brutal murder) include this verse or the line "flowers he will strew", a string which in fact shows up in Google only once, in a plot summary for Shakespeare's _Cymbeline_. I probably wouldn't have noticed the line myself if we hadn't had this recent thread initiated by Wilson (and Springer's guest). > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From brianhi at SKECHERS.COM Tue Aug 30 21:55:51 2011 From: brianhi at SKECHERS.COM (Brian Hitchcock) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:55:51 -0700 Subject: A school system's dirty-word spreadsheet Message-ID: I found it odd that "sleaze" and "smut" made the list. I always thought these to be rather mild terms, almost euphemistic. And, of course, "smut" has non-prurient meanings. Apparently students will be blocked from corresponding about research on crop diseases. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 30 23:19:07 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:19:07 -0400 Subject: Heard on Springer: _strewn_ [stroUn] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 30, 2011, at 5:48 PM, Paul Johnston wrote: > OED has this as from OE streawian (or streowian). The [stroU] pronunciations come from forms with the diphthong stressed on the second element; any /j/ ghost of the first would disappear after the /r/; Stress-shift, helped by the palatal before, like this also happened for show (cf. earlier shew); sew; and dialectally, ewe and shrew, which give forms from ME /Ou/ in the North of England, Scotland, and the Southwest of England. But there is no general rule telling you what words have /ju/ and what words /oU/ or the like, even on the other side of the pool---Scots can have /Su/ for sew but /j^U/ for ewe (/stru/ sounds good to me, but I suspect many guid aul-fashiont Scots dialects have /str^U/. As for chew, forget it! Chew, chow, and chaw all exist, even over here. Knowing Early Middle English vowel classes doesn't help either: sew had /iu/ (like stew, yew); chew and ewe, /eu/ (like new, brew, and past tenses like blew, knew); show, shrew and strew, /Eu/ (like dew). ! It! > does seem that a preceding palatal, or sometimes /r/, helps the stress shift. > > But screw, from French, doesn't alternate like this, so you can't scrow something (or someone).,.;;;;; > > Paul Johnston Nice to know there's no relation between "escrow" and "screw", despite the occasional shady real estate deal? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Aug 31 04:22:59 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 00:22:59 -0400 Subject: "lipstick lesbian" (1972?) Message-ID: Michael Sharp (known to crossword fans as Rex Parker) has a blog called Pop Sensation that showcases pulp paperbacks, mostly from the '50s and '60s. He recently featured "Take a Lesbian to Lunch" by Ann Aldrich (McFadden Books, 1972): http://salmongutter.blogspot.com/2011/08/paperback-446-take-lesbian-to-lunch-ann.html Also in this Huffington Post slideshow: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-sharp/pulp-novel-covers_b_937147.html?ref=fb&src=sp#s339832&title=Take_a_Lesbian Michael says he was told that the book has the first known print appearance of "lipstick lesbian". OED (Aug. 2001 draft addition) only dates it to 1984. The author herself (whose real name is Marijane Meaker and also goes by M.E. Kerr) discusses the phrase here: http://www.mekerr.com/phpbbforum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=211 "An e-mail advised me that I didn't coin the term lipstick lesbian, it was a popular expression among 'the ladies' but I may have been the first one to put it in print." Since the book is exceedingly rare (and isn't viewable on Google Books), I've emailed Michael to ask for a cite. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK Wed Aug 31 10:34:36 2011 From: m.l.murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:34:36 +0100 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation Message-ID: I'm not sure which of these you're talking about--and I haven't experience of the Twitter publicity for the duplications of my posts--but I have experienced: Lots of pages that seem to act kind of like RSS feeds on a particular topic. E.g. ESL. Like this one: There, it serves as a mirror for your blog, with a link back to it. Then there are the people who just steal your material. And then deny it. This happened to me with a cooking site that just copied my piece on 'high tea' (links and all) and another that may or may not have copied parts of my piece on cuts of meat (that one would've been found a 'minor' case of plagiarism at my university; 40 lashes with a wet noodle). Are you signed up to any blog syndication things, like BlogBurst? That can be another way in which your stuff gets re-posted, though I don't know much about how it works. I recently had mail from a Chicago-based 'communications' company, asking if they could post something of mine, with credit. It was nice of them to ask, but their utter lack of professional communicative competence in their emails made me decide I didn't want to be associated with them. I mean, if you can't even manage a greeting in your email when you're asking someone for something... Hope that helps. Lynne --On 30 August 2011 14:14 +0100 Garson O'Toole wrote: > Several list members have blogs or participate on blogs that are > popular. I have noticed for many months that text is extracted from my > blog and copied to other websites. These are primarily spammish > websites designed to fool the Google page rank algorithm by > manipulating content and links. > > But I just noticed a phenomenon that is new to me. An entire post on > my blog was duplicated on another website. Next, a group of twitter > users started to tweet about the duplicate webpage. I believe that > each one of these twitter users is a spambot with fake profile and a > fake picture. The construction of the twitter agents and the tweets > themselves are probably automated. > > This tweeting could have been done in a way that would have been > largely invisible to me, but I discovered it was happening because the > tweets actually mentioned the name of my blog. The goal may be to > improve the page rank of the duplicate webpage. > > Is this happening to the blogs of other list members? Dr M Lynne Murphy Senior Lecturer in Linguistics Director of English Language and Linguistics School of English Arts B348 University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QN phone: +44-(0)1273-678844 http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 11:42:36 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:42:36 -0400 Subject: oxymoron = 'redundancy; tautology' Message-ID: Three highly-paid CNN anchors ask, "Are conservative women unfairly stereotyped?" They discuss it. Then: Anchor 1: One of our viewers points out that "unfairly stereotyped" is an oxymoron. Anchor 2 [amazed]: Right! Anchor 1: Because most stereotypes *are* unfair! Anchors 1, 2, and 3: Hm! Huh! Ha! JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 12:25:51 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:25:51 -0400 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation In-Reply-To: <8924FD318189EE9F2CA22822@aeng005114.english.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks for your informative response Lynne Murphy. Here are some details to help further explain what happened. On August 25 I posted my exploration of the amusing quotation "Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy; here is a link: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/08/25/creative-minds/ The post was 920 words long and the full text was duplicated on a website that uses a template for a pseudo-publication called "cpa review". The content was copied but not the pictures or formatting. The "cpa review" website appears to be a conglomeration of duplicated data. I would guess that it has been constructed by an automated process that uses keyword searches to select pages to copy. Below is the link, but I would not recommend visiting this type of website unless you are surfing in a defensive mode with a plug-in like "No script". http://www.cpareviews.info/creative-minds-are-rarely-tidy-quote-investigator.html Further below are a group of tweets that appeared on August 26. The bit.ly link in the tweets points to the webpage on the cpareviews.info website. The names of the tweeters look like they might have been constructed using a formal grammar. This manipulation of twitter is new to me, but different forms of twitter spam have existed for a few years now. I only started to monitor twitter when I noticed incoming traffic. A reporter from ABC News and one from the Wall Street Journal tweeted links to my blog. The search facility provided by twitter is somewhat clever. It automatically expands shortlinks so you can search inside them for web addresses http://twitter.com/#!/search-home Here are the fake twitterers: fritterers? (PCWorld on Feb 15, 2009 gave "Phweeters (phony tweeters)") Jonahtanaln Jonahtan Mcgaha Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator bit.ly/r6I4Xz accountant new york ;P 26 Aug Ery Dwelley Erybwa Ery Dwelley ;) bit.ly/r6I4Xz Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator accountant new york 26 Aug Oisseau Herlocker Oisseautpl Oisseau Herlocker bit.ly/r6I4Xz :O accountant new york Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug Yeritza Glendenning Yeritzapov Yeritza Glendenning accountant new york bit.ly/r6I4Xz Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug Fredy Bowne Fredyqec Fredy Bowne bit.ly/r6I4Xz :P accountant new york Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug Lourdes Kratzke Lourdeskja Lourdes Kratzke Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator . accountant new york bit.ly/r6I4Xz 26 Aug Jhoana Stanback Jhoanasqi Jhoana Stanback bit.ly/r6I4Xz ;O accountant new york Creative Minds Are Rarely Tidy Quote Investigator 26 Aug ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 12:48:20 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:48:20 -0400 Subject: headline Message-ID: Not quite a crash blossom, but quite a convoluted headline in a blawg post: http://goo.gl/ldeSu Federal judge dismisses disciplinary and sanctions proceeding against lawyers initiated by U.S. District Judge John McBryde How common is serialization of different parts of speech attached to a common head? (disciplinary and sanctions proceeding) And what kind of secret society did Judge McBryde initiate those lawyers into? VS-) ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 15:48:51 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:48:51 -0400 Subject: "gink"? Message-ID: A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5896 [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" CD] One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. One day as I was turning all to my native vale, I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I assume = 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon?but one (see below). The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: Etymology: Of obscure origin. slang (orig. U.S.). A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. [etc.] Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a local British sense within the song. There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK = 'Green Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various more specific slurs (gink = pejorative for someone of Indian descent) are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the example provided: 13. gink 28 up, 47 down Money, currency. Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 16:32:55 2011 From: adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM (Garson O'Toole) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:32:55 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311549.p7VAklgw016066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: The link below points to a book in GB titled "English far and wide: a festschrift for Inna Koskenniemi ?" The word chink is used instead of gink, and the annotation [money] is given. The snippet GB displays shows the relevant text. His mill I rattled round, I ground his grits [millstones] so clean; I eased him of his chink [money] in gathering broom so green. http://books.google.com/books?id=AkYRAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor The GB book "Sing out, Volume 38" also uses chink and says that "chink is money." http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=%22his+chink%22#search_anchor http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor I make no claims about the quality of information in these books. On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: "gink"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses = > below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute = > de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman = > who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. > > http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3D5896 > [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" = > CD] > > > One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, > I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; > He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. > > One day as I was turning all to my native vale, > I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; > His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. > > Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is = > clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give = > up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I = > assume =3D 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon=85but one = > (see below). > > The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: > > Etymology: Of obscure origin. > slang (orig. U.S.). > > A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) > 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these = > ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. > [etc.] > > Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a = > local British sense within the song. > > There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English = > Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the = > acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK =3D 'Green = > Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on = > urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various = > more specific slurs (gink =3D pejorative for someone of Indian descent) = > are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite = > all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the = > example provided: > > 13. gink 28 up, 47 down > Money, currency. > Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! > > Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? > > LH= > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 16:54:38 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:54:38 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311633.p7VFGssm008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: All six copies of "The Besom Maker" in the Bodleian Library's broadside collection have "gink." The earliest date is some time from 1819 through 1844. I've never seen "gink" used in this way. If I had to guess, I'd guess that the once very common "chink" was intended, via a voiced pronunciation like "jink" and {g} for {j}. Unlikely, but maybe no less unlikely than that a genuine "gink" ('money') existed more or less independently of "chink." That there are six copies produced by at least three printers doesn't mean anything: the printers copied each other's ballads ad lib. The song looks like it was inspired by the title and refrain of Burns's "Buy Broom Besoms," about a broom-seller looking for a wife. That contains neither "gink" nor "chink." JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 12:32 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The link below points to a book in GB titled "English far and wide: a > festschrift for Inna Koskenniemi ?" The word chink is used instead of > gink, and the annotation [money] is given. The snippet GB displays > shows the relevant text. > > His mill I rattled round, I ground his grits [millstones] so clean; > I eased him of his chink [money] in gathering broom so green. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=AkYRAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > > The GB book "Sing out, Volume 38" also uses chink and says that "chink > is money." > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=%22his+chink%22#search_anchor > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > I make no claims about the quality of information in these books. > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Laurence Horn > > Subject: "gink"? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses = > > below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute > = > > de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman = > > who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. > > > > http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3D5896 > > [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" = > > CD] > > > > > > One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, > > I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; > > He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, > > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. > > > > One day as I was turning all to my native vale, > > I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; > > His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, > > I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. > > > > Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is > = > > clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give > = > > up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I = > > assume =3D 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon=85but one = > > (see below). > > > > The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: > > > > Etymology: Of obscure origin. > > slang (orig. U.S.). > > > > A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) > > 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these > = > > ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. > > [etc.] > > > > Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a = > > local British sense within the song. > > > > There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English = > > Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the = > > acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK =3D 'Green = > > Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on = > > urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various = > > more specific slurs (gink =3D pejorative for someone of Indian descent) = > > are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite > = > > all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the = > > example provided: > > > > 13. gink 28 up, 47 down > > Money, currency. > > Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! > > > > Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? > > > > LH= > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 17:16:56 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:16:56 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Garson. I didn't think of a connection with "chink", which the OED does track: CHINK n., 3 4. A humorous colloquial term for money in the form of coin; ready cash. Exceedingly common in the dramatists and in songs of the 17th c.; now rather slangy or vulgar. Farmer & Henley not only give this sense but illustrate it with cites from Shakespeare "He that can lay hold of her Shall have the chinks"--Romeo and Juliet I.v) and Jonson that are absent from the OED entry. Further, F&H include a second sense, 'the female pudendum'. (Not that it's the female pudendum of which the squire and miller are eased by the besom maker.) Presumably this latter sense relates not to the onomatopoeic CHINK n., 3 above but rather represents the OED's n., 2 entry, 'a fissure, cleft, crack'. Under F&H's extensive list of synonyms under CREAM ('the seminal fluid') can be seen neither "gink" nor "chink", but we do find "chink-stopper". LH On Aug 31, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > The link below points to a book in GB titled "English far and wide: a > festschrift for Inna Koskenniemi ?" The word chink is used instead of > gink, and the annotation [money] is given. The snippet GB displays > shows the relevant text. > > His mill I rattled round, I ground his grits [millstones] so clean; > I eased him of his chink [money] in gathering broom so green. > > http://books.google.com/books?id=AkYRAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > > The GB book "Sing out, Volume 38" also uses chink and says that "chink > is money." > > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=%22his+chink%22#search_anchor > http://books.google.com/books?id=lY8JAQAAMAAJ&q=chink#search_anchor > > I make no claims about the quality of information in these books. > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Laurence Horn >> Subject: "gink"? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> A traditional bawdy ballad "The Besom Maker" contains the two verses >> below; the narrator (since that's the term we've decided to adopt, faute >> de mieux) is a young (or, as it develops, at least still fertile) woman >> who makes besoms (brooms) out of broom or twigs. >> >> http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=3D5896 >> [same lyrics as performed by Lucky Bags on their "Delight in Disorder" >> CD] >> >> >> One day as I was roving, over the hills so high, >> I met with a rakish squire, all with a rolling eye; >> He tipp'd to me the wink, I wrote to him the tune, >> I eased him of his gink, a-gathering of green broom. >> >> One day as I was turning all to my native vale, >> I met Jack Sprat the miller, he asked me to turn tail; >> His mill I rattled round, I ground the grists so clean, >> I eased him of his gink, a-gathering broom so green. >> >> Now the second meaning of the gink of which she eases these gentlemen is >> clear (especially by the last verse, when the narrator is forced to give >> up her besom-selling for nursing), but there must be a first meaning (I >> assume = 'money, coin'), which I can't find in any lexicon=85but one >> (see below). >> >> The OED entry for _gink_ evidently involves a different lexical item: >> >> Etymology: Of obscure origin. >> slang (orig. U.S.). >> >> A fellow; a man. (Freq. pejorative.) >> 1910 Sat. Evening Post 22 Oct. 12/3, I don't believe that all these >> ginks have got coin enough to support one good game. >> [etc.] >> >> Note the 'orig. U.S.', which is at variance with what I assume to be a >> local British sense within the song. >> >> There's no entry for _gink_ in Farmer & Henley or in Wright's _English >> Dialect Dictionary_, and the web is no apparent help. Neither the >> acronym adopted by the eponymous facebook group (GINK = 'Green >> Inclinations, No Kids') nor the first several entries on >> urbandictionary, either the OED sense ('man', derogatory) or various >> more specific slurs (gink =3D pejorative for someone of Indian descent) >> are particularly relevant. But curiously, the 13th entry on ud (despite >> all the thumbs down) seems to be on target, although I can't parse the >> example provided: >> >> 13. gink 28 up, 47 down >> Money, currency. >> Dat nickel gots da GINK yun! >> >> Any suggestions? Do any actual lexicons contain this sense? >> >> LH= >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From hwgray at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 19:01:41 2011 From: hwgray at GMAIL.COM (Wilson Gray) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:01:41 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311717.p7VGu4KV007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ... it's the female pudendum _of which_ the squire and miller are eased by the besom maker. "by which"? "with which"? -- -Wilson ----- All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live. -Mark Twain ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 19:13:06 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:13:06 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: >> ... it's the female pudendum _of which_ the squire and miller are eased by the besom maker. > > "by which"? "with which"? > Touch?. ;-) LH ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 19:32:20 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:32:20 -0400 Subject: One happy language! Message-ID: FWIW: http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.5192. Support for the Pollyanna Hypothesis, if you're willing to buy it. (Wonder if the U. of Vermont responses would have been different post-Irene?) A summary on The Scientist: http://the-scientist.com/2011/08/31/the-happiness-of-english/ The Happiness of English There are more positive words than negative ones in the written English language. By Jef Akst | August 31, 2011 Across books, songs, even news publications and social media sites, positive words are used more commonly than negative ones, according to a new study published Monday (August 29) on arXiv, an online prepublication site widely used in the physical sciences. Hypotheses regarding the reasons language evolved as it did are varied, including purely practical explanations such as coordinating social behaviors, like hunting, and more cultural explanations, like the support of altruism and cooperation. The answer, some anthropologists believe, may be found in the language itself. In one of the most comprehensive analyses of the English language to date, mathematicians from Cornell University and the University of Vermont collated more than 10,000 words from four sources of text?Google Books, Twitter, The New York Times, and song lyrics. The words were scored on a scale of 1 to 9, with 1 being the most negative and 9 being the most positive. (The highest score was awarded to ?laughter,? which received an 8.5, while ?terrorist? received the lowest, coming it at 1.3, according to Wired Science.) Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative ones, suggesting ?a positivity bias? in the language, the authors wrote. ?In our stories and writings we tend toward pro-social communication.? They added that future work is needed to determine the ?positivity? of other languages and dialects, as well as the trends towards other emotions. Comparing the results could reveal interesting correlations between language characteristics and aspects of societal organization in different cultures around the world. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From imwitty at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 19:54:16 2011 From: imwitty at GMAIL.COM (imwitty) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:54:16 -0700 Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation In-Reply-To: <201108301314.p7UAmXqJ012039@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Looks like this is going for YEARS. Google recently started an investigation and asks affected bloggers to provide some information. See this article at Search Engine Watch: http://bit.ly/pafxLL. Lora On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:14 AM, Garson O'Toole wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Garson O'Toole > Subject: Off topic: web page duplication and twitter manipulation > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Several list members have blogs or participate on blogs that are > popular. I have noticed for many months that text is extracted from my > blog and copied to other websites. These are primarily spammish > websites designed to fool the Google page rank algorithm by > manipulating content and links. > > But I just noticed a phenomenon that is new to me. An entire post on > my blog was duplicated on another website. Next, a group of twitter > users started to tweet about the duplicate webpage. I believe that > each one of these twitter users is a spambot with fake profile and a > fake picture. The construction of the twitter agents and the tweets > themselves are probably automated. > > This tweeting could have been done in a way that would have been > largely invisible to me, but I discovered it was happening because the > tweets actually mentioned the name of my blog. The goal may be to > improve the page rank of the duplicate webpage. > > Is this happening to the blogs of other list members? > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- L. ----------------------------------------------------- Please reply to imwitty at gmail.com ----------------------------------------------------- This e-mail is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects. ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 19:58:35 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:58:35 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108311932.p7VJR27w016066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: >Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative ones, suggesting a positivity bias in the language, the authors wrote. It doesn't occur to these fools that their sources may have a stylistic bias toward happy talk? What if they'd added a few Victorian pop songs like "The Vacant Chair" and "Who Will Care for Mother Now?" "More than 10,000 words." Wow! That's even more than in a term paper. I am soooo impressed! JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: One happy language! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > FWIW: http://arxiv.org/abs/1108.5192. Support for the Pollyanna = > Hypothesis, if you're willing to buy it. (Wonder if the U. of Vermont = > responses would have been different post-Irene=85) > > A summary on The Scientist: > http://the-scientist.com/2011/08/31/the-happiness-of-english/ > > The Happiness of English > There are more positive words than negative ones in the written English = > language. > > By Jef Akst | August 31, 2011 > > Across books, songs, even news publications and social media sites, = > positive words are used more commonly than negative ones, according to a = > new study published Monday (August 29) on arXiv, an online = > prepublication site widely used in the physical sciences. > > Hypotheses regarding the reasons language evolved as it did are varied, = > including purely practical explanations such as coordinating social = > behaviors, like hunting, and more cultural explanations, like the = > support of altruism and cooperation. The answer, some anthropologists = > believe, may be found in the language itself. > > In one of the most comprehensive analyses of the English language to = > date, mathematicians from Cornell University and the University of = > Vermont collated more than 10,000 words from four sources of text=97Google= > Books, Twitter, The New York Times, and song lyrics. The words were = > scored on a scale of 1 to 9, with 1 being the most negative and 9 being = > the most positive. (The highest score was awarded to =93laughter,=94 = > which received an 8.5, while =93terrorist=94 received the lowest, coming = > it at 1.3, according to Wired Science.) > > Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative = > ones, suggesting =93a positivity bias=94 in the language, the authors = > wrote. =93In our stories and writings we tend toward pro-social = > communication.=94 They added that future work is needed to determine the = > =93positivity=94 of other languages and dialects, as well as the trends = > towards other emotions. Comparing the results could reveal interesting = > correlations between language characteristics and aspects of societal = > organization in different cultures around the world. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU Wed Aug 31 20:21:26 2011 From: bgzimmer at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Ben Zimmer) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:21:26 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108311958.p7VJR29G016066@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:58 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > >Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative > >ones, suggesting a positivity bias in the language, the authors wrote. > > It doesn't occur to these fools that their sources may have a stylistic bias > toward happy talk? What if they'd added a few Victorian pop songs like "The > Vacant Chair" and "Who Will Care for Mother Now?" > > "More than 10,000 words." Wow! That's even more than in a term paper. I am > soooo impressed! Not to dampen your skepticism, Jon, but that's 10,000 *unique* words (types, not tokens). If you look at the study, you'll see they analyzed 9 billion words from Twitter, 360 billion words from Google Books, 1 billion words from The New York Times, and 59 million words from song lyrics. Presumably enough data to overcome stylistic biases in the source material. --bgz -- Ben Zimmer http://benzimmer.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From chris at LASCRIBE.NET Wed Aug 31 20:32:02 2011 From: chris at LASCRIBE.NET (Chris Waigl) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:32:02 -0800 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <81F8CA38-1FB8-4355-91F2-0FB4B89CBB4B@yale.edu> Message-ID: On 31 Aug 2011, at 11:32, Laurence Horn wrote: > Overall, the researchers found that positive words outnumbered negative ones, suggesting ?a positivity bias? in the language, the authors wrote. The thought that immediately came to mind when I saw this flash by is why anyone would do this study on one language only. What is a reasonable baseline for "happy" vs "unhappy" words? How would English compare with, say, Germanic or Romance languages? With some from very different cultural backgrounds? For me the result as reported is close to completely meaningless. Maybe that's because of the reporting, but my days are full enough with stuff I know are going to be interesting that I would not chase up the source on something that comes across as prima facie not. Chris Waigl -- Chris Waigl -- http://chryss.eu -- http://eggcorns.lascribe.net twitter: chrys -- friendfeed: chryss ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 20:50:33 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:50:33 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108311913.p7VFGsXo008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: If I know my F & H, there's an _excellent_ chance that "gink," 'female pudendum,' is either an error or a repetition of somebody else's error. But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in the '50s, IIRC. OED dates it to '34, which just beats HDAS. But it's probably older than that: 1926-27 _The Gargoyle_ (U. of Wis. Law School) XX [GB snippet: language and typeface consistent with date]: That girl is _some_ ginch! 1936 Vincent McHugh _Caleb Catlum's America_ (N.Y.: Stackpole) 66: Fancy le Boeuf, the prettiest little ginch you could hope to see, all frills and furbelows. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Laurence Horn wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Laurence Horn > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Wilson Gray wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Laurence Horn > wrote: > >> ... it's the female pudendum _of which_ the squire and miller are eased > by the besom maker. > > > > "by which"? "with which"? > > > Touch?. ;-) > > LH > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 21:04:57 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:04:57 -0400 Subject: ginchy = 'hinky; leery' Message-ID: New to me: 1994 Cheryl terHorst_Daily Herald_ (Chicago) (Dec. 20) II 1 (NewspaperArchive): Everyone's a little ginchy about this one. See, it's kind of complicated. There are lots of thigh and cellulite creams on the market. 2000 Laura Bianchi in Ibid III 3 : If you're a bit ginchy about trying this product, you've probably already had it. 2003 Lorilynn Rackl in Ibid.(Oct. 27) III 1: But some physicians are ginchy about the potential long-term effects of using hormones. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From douglas at NB.NET Wed Aug 31 21:31:39 2011 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:31:39 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312050.p7VGu4pJ007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > .... > But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. > "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in the > '50s, IIRC. -- Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". -- Doug Wilson ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 21:53:25 2011 From: aardvark66 at GMAIL.COM (victor steinbok) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:53:25 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108312021.p7VGu4j5007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Wait! You mean 1 billion words on NYT and 360 billion words from GB boil down to 10000 unique words? How is that possible? It certainly sounds like there might have been some selection bias--it was just better hidden than merely picking up 10000 words from questionable sources. But, more to the point, the result of the study reflects the scale bias of the researchers--there is absolutely no indication of objectivity (nor is any possible) in ranking the words. This is simply a classic error that creeps up in most social sciences--attaching a random scale to non-quantifiable data will get you a neat numerical result, but will be totally devoid of actual meaning. Another recent classic in the same genre is UCLA Prof Tim Groseclose's book Left Turn: How Liberal Media Bias Distorts the American Mind (with Jeff Milyo), which Groseclose is peddling the last couple of days as a guest blogger on Volokh Conspiracy. Geoff Nunberg took the book apart on Language Log. http://goo.gl/AOjOc > But sand sifted statistically is still sand. If you take the trouble to > read the study carefully, it turns out to be based on unsupported, > ideology-driven premises and to raise what would it would be most polite to > describe as severe issues of data quality, however earnestly Groseclose and > Milyo crunched their numbers. The simple principle here is GIGO--no matter how nicely the numbers are tabulated. VS-) On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Ben Zimmer wrote: > > Not to dampen your skepticism, Jon, but that's 10,000 *unique* words > (types, not > tokens). If you look at the study, you'll see they analyzed 9 billion words > from > Twitter, 360 billion words from Google Books, 1 billion words from The New > York > Times, and 59 million words from song lyrics. Presumably enough data to > overcome stylistic biases in the source material. > > --bgz ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 21:59:08 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:59:08 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312132.p7VJP0B0008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, would often be problematic. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > > .... > > But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. > > "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in > the > > '50s, IIRC. > -- > > Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD > (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". > > (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) > > I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: > perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". > > -- Doug Wilson > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From thegonch at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 22:26:43 2011 From: thegonch at GMAIL.COM (Dan Goncharoff) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:26:43 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312159.p7VJP0DY008345@waikiki.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: I wish to declare I am neither a gunch or a ginch. TheGonch Sent from my iPhone On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > Subject: Re: "gink"? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term > from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. > > The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended > (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. > > The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, > would often be problematic. > > JL > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >> ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Subject: Re: "gink"? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>> .... >>> But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. >>> "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in >> the >>> '50s, IIRC. >> -- >> >> Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD >> (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". >> >> (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) >> >> I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: >> perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >> > > > > -- > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 22:29:01 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:29:01 -0400 Subject: One happy language! In-Reply-To: <201108312153.p7VGu4w3007227@willow.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Well, I suppose a genuine "positivity bias" in English would mean great publicity for our beloved language and a possible open-sesame for grant money to compare it with, say, Mandarin. The authors - all five of them - seem unable to conceive of the distinction between a happiness bias in the structure of a language (perhaps a la Sapir-Whorf) and an overall cultural preference to accentuate the positive whenever possible. As Chris and Victor observe, however, the assignment of subjective hedonometric values to individual words is, er, fraught with difficulty. Participants "rated their happiness in response to each isolation." The researchers "chose words solely on frequency of use." So, on a scale of 1 to 9, which word makes you happier: "Of" or "at"? "A" or "the"? "I" or "its"? "Beer" or "sleep"? "Hurricane" or "eruption"? If I asked you a week from now, would your ratings be the same? I see that the authors have also published on climatological and "social and biological contagion models." I'm sure there's no need for concern, however. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:53 PM, victor steinbok wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: victor steinbok > Subject: Re: One happy language! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wait! You mean 1 billion words on NYT and 360 billion words from GB boil > down to 10000 unique words? How is that possible? It certainly sounds like > there might have been some selection bias--it was just better hidden than > merely picking up 10000 words from questionable sources. But, more to the > point, the result of the study reflects the scale bias of the > researchers--there is absolutely no indication of objectivity (nor is any > possible) in ranking the words. This is simply a classic error that creeps > up in most social sciences--attaching a random scale to non-quantifiable > data will get you a neat numerical result, but will be totally devoid of > actual meaning. Another recent classic in the same genre is UCLA Prof Tim > Groseclose's book Left Turn: How Liberal Media Bias Distorts the American > Mind (with Jeff Milyo), which Groseclose is peddling the last couple of > days > as a guest blogger on Volokh Conspiracy. Geoff Nunberg took the book apart > on Language Log. > > http://goo.gl/AOjOc > > > But sand sifted statistically is still sand. If you take the trouble to > > read the study carefully, it turns out to be based on unsupported, > > ideology-driven premises and to raise what would it would be most polite > to > > describe as severe issues of data quality, however earnestly Groseclose > and > > Milyo crunched their numbers. > > > The simple principle here is GIGO--no matter how nicely the numbers are > tabulated. > > VS-) > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 4:21 PM, Ben Zimmer > wrote: > > > > > Not to dampen your skepticism, Jon, but that's 10,000 *unique* words > > (types, not > > tokens). If you look at the study, you'll see they analyzed 9 billion > words > > from > > Twitter, 360 billion words from Google Books, 1 billion words from The > New > > York > > Times, and 59 million words from song lyrics. Presumably enough data to > > overcome stylistic biases in the source material. > > > > --bgz > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 22:30:25 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:30:25 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <201108312226.p7VKXlSe023055@wasabi.cc.uga.edu> Message-ID: Any Scot should recognize the vowel contrast there. JL On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society > Poster: Dan Goncharoff > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I wish to declare I am neither a gunch or a ginch. > > TheGonch > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter > wrote: > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header > ----------------------- > > Sender: American Dialect Society > > Poster: Jonathan Lighter > > Subject: Re: "gink"? > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term > > from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. > > > > The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended > > (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. > > > > The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, > > would often be problematic. > > > > JL > > > > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson > wrote: > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header > >> ----------------------- > >> Sender: American Dialect Society > >> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" > >> Subject: Re: "gink"? > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >>> .... > >>> But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. > >>> "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in > >> the > >>> '50s, IIRC. > >> -- > >> > >> Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD > >> (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". > >> > >> (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) > >> > >> I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: > >> perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". > >> > >> -- Doug Wilson > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------ > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the > truth." > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM Wed Aug 31 23:27:26 2011 From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM (Jonathan Lighter) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:27:26 -0400 Subject: "the Big [initial]" Message-ID: HDAS includes a number of these (e.g., "the Big D" - 'Dallas'). Here's an antedating: 1917 _The Marines Magazine_ (Dec.) 20-21: U.S.S. "Utah." ...Brothers Mace and Jordan...were presented with a gorgeous bouquet of flowers apiece just prior to the BIG "U's" departure for sea. JL -- "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 23:51:45 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:51:45 -0400 Subject: "gink"? In-Reply-To: <-3221310757561878239@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:26 PM, Dan Goncharoff wrote: > I wish to declare I am neither a gunch or a ginch. > > TheGonch Well, on the bright side, if a ginch is an ectomorph and a gunch an endomorph, as sound symbolism predicts and the lexical entries seems to confirm, that would make you a mesomorph. Could be worse. --LH, who is now prepared to speculate that "gunk" derived from a term originally designating a large mess o' money > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Aug 31, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------------------- >> Sender: American Dialect Society >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter >> Subject: Re: "gink"? >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> That's occurred to me, Doug, but "ginch" is a pretty obscure dialect term >> from rural Scotland. I wonder how many people ever used it. >> >> The Concise Scots Dictionary lists only "gunch," BTW, with the extended >> (20th C.) meaning of a "short, thickset person," primarily in Caithness. >> >> The distinction between "ginch" and "gunch" in spoken Scots, of course, >> would often be problematic. >> >> JL >> >> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >>> ----------------------- >>> Sender: American Dialect Society >>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson" >>> Subject: Re: "gink"? >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> On 8/31/2011 4:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: >>>> .... >>>> But if we want to get conjectural, what the hell is the origin of U.S. >>>> "ginch" ('sexually attractive or available young woman/women')? Big in >>> the >>>> '50s, IIRC. >>> -- >>> >>> Conjectural only: "ginch" = "small piece" (Scots): in Wright's EDD >>> (Banff) and Warrack's "Scots Dialect Dictionary". >>> >>> (Cf. "gunch" = "big piece".) >>> >>> I think the earlier citations seem compatible with a non-obscene usage: >>> perhaps comparable to "piece of fluff/skirt/etc.". >>> >>> -- Doug Wilson >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth." >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------ >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 31 23:59:26 2011 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:59:26 -0400 Subject: "the Big [initial]" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Aug 31, 2011, at 7:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote: > HDAS includes a number of these (e.g., "the Big D" - 'Dallas'). > And it sports three entries for The Big O, including one for Opium as well as the one you were thinking of. Not to be confused with "The Big --Oh", as in the Big 6-Oh (for the birthday of that number), which is also listed in HDAS and which strikes me as becoming more frequently used (or maybe it's just used more frequently as a euphemism for people whose ages are tracking mine?) LH > Here's an antedating: > > 1917 _The Marines Magazine_ (Dec.) 20-21: U.S.S. "Utah." ...Brothers Mace > and Jordan...were presented with a gorgeous bouquet of flowers apiece just > prior to the BIG "U's" departure for sea. > > JL > ------------------------------------------------------------ The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org