A New Capacitor...Unknown outside Japan??

There is a relatively new capacitor for sale at all the bigger component shops here in Japan, (well Osaka to be precise) and I am really surprised that no one outside Japan has heard of or written about it.

Hifido (Japan's most well known vintage audio restorers / exporters) seem to use these a lot now. http://www.hifido.co.jp/merumaga/eigyo/120504/index.html

They are more expensive than the Nichicon MUSE KZs, but are they better?

Now, I have an ongoing amp recapping which I have been slowly tackling for the past year as time has allowed. I have in the course of my seemingly endless trips to the parts shop have bought a few of these "Jovials" which I won't use after all.

So...who can I send them to for a proper testing and comparison.

The folks at http://tech.juaneda.com/ would be prefect.
They did this awesome comparison http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html
I couldn't find contact info on their site however

The name of the capacitor is Jovial. The manufacturer is Toshin Kogyo CO.,LTD
http://www.toshinkk.co.jp/product/alumi.html

THANKS!

I've mostly seen Toshin Kogyo (TK) brand capacitors in harman kardon equipment, and occasionally in Adcom units.

Hi,

You can send them to me, I'm living in Tokyo area, and testing capacitors is really one of my things. I got a LCRZ meter giving 40 Hz to 400 kHz results for ESR, phase shift, tan D, capacitance, etc. And as such I compared many caps. In any case, cap comparising testing should be done for same capacitance and rated voltage. No point comparing a 220uF/16V with a 35 volt version. Hence, a set of same values/voltage of 2 or more brands is required. To a certain extend also the shelf life and if they have been energised recently or not. After few months of storage, caps start very slowly loosing certain properties, which can often be recovered by reforming (i.e. tension on it). So, two identical caps will measure differently if one of them has been energised recently while the other has not for a long time. It's not 20% difference, but easily 5%. Please note that all individual measurements are taken one by one, then making graphs in excel, so it's time consuming. They are not automatic generated curves out of a single measurement. But I'll offer to do these test as it has my interest and would like to know the properties of them as well I do have a bunch of Elna SIlmic II and various Nichicon caps for reference. Let me know. Of course I'll send them back

Tokyo testing

Oilmaster said:

Hi,

You can send them to me, I'm living in Tokyo area

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Sounds good. I'll send them up.

I guess you haven't seen Jovials yet.

My big Q is how they stack up against Nichicon Muse KZ or Silmic II

BTW...I've had a heck of a time finding Silmic II in Japan.

Of course Digi-key or Newark will send just about anything, but at a cost.

Might you have a Japan based source for Silmic IIs??

Great, we'll be in touch by PM for exchanging addresses.

Yes, I have come across various shops in Akihabara area where they sell Silmic II. I'll pay attention to which one during next visit. Some of these shops are well hidden in that maze of upper floors and back alleys. Perhaps this weekend.

I haven't seem the jovials yet, but if they measure well, then i've got a couple of amps they could go in. I'll make a list of new unused caps I have in stock. I should also have a couple of KZ somewhere; just love them, and their big brother KG series.

Oilmaster said:

Great, we'll be in touch by PM for exchanging addresses.

Yes, I have come across various shops in Akihabara area where they sell Silmic II. I'll pay attention to which one during next visit. Some of these shops are well hidden in that maze of upper floors and back alleys. Perhaps this weekend.

I haven't seem the jovials yet, but if they measure well, then i've got a couple of amps they could go in. I'll make a list of new unused caps I have in stock. I should also have a couple of KZ somewhere; just love them, and their big brother KG series.

Click to expand...

Very interesting...

Pls, let us know about the results and if they are OK. If Hifido uses them is a good start... :thmbsp:

Just posted up in another thread about solid capacitors in another thread. Seems like they've got a lot going for them, but ... cost has to be a consideration.

Looked up a common size on Mouser ... 100uF 35v radial ... audio grade Nichicon @52¢ each ... AOP solid @ <drumroll please> $5.75 ... yeowch!

Comments? They tout better stability, heat tolerance, and low esr, and seem to cover most everything except the big rail caps for size and values ... if cost were no object, I'd think they'd have to be an option.

They sound like the new polymer types that are showing up in power supplies- very small package for their WVDC and capacitance. I have been moving to those for power supply repairs. If they test well for audio, maybe i need to start buying in bulk....

If we're talking OSCON types, they haven't been available in the higher voltages previously. They have super low dissipation factor (esr) and squash noise better than just about anything else. As a bypass they can't be beat, at least until you have to go to ceramics for RF. They don't seem to suffer from the poor performance of regular e-caps in the low voltage versions. No idea if they're good in the signal path and I'd be a bit wary and listen carefully.

Not OSCON. Just regular old caps in a can that cost more than regular ones for some reason.

I'm hoping that THAT reason will be because they are actually quite awesome.

Test results soon (I think).

Pricey

sKiZo said:

Looked up a common size on Mouser ... 100uF 35v radial ... audio grade Nichicon @52¢ each ... AOP solid @ <drumroll please> $5.75 ... yeowch!

Comments? They tout better stability, heat tolerance, and low esr, and seem to cover most everything except the big rail caps for size and values ... if cost were no object, I'd think they'd have to be an option.

Click to expand...

100uF 35v radial ... $5.75
Yep...Those Jovials are pricey.

Although, here in Osaka shops, they are about half that. Still a lot.

I however will be happy to use them if they prove worth it.

Assuming you were referring to Jovials. Does Mouser list them?

The test appears to be on.

I suppose it's only fitting to toss the honor of announcing the results to Oilmaster, who has graciously accepted to do all the work here. (While I sit back snacking on G.H. Cretor's cheese and caramel popcorn from Waukegan, Illinois.)

Stay tuned

First test results (before reforming)

So I received the TK Jovial capacitors from Ronito6 this week :thmbsp: , being: 2x 25V/470uF, 2x 25V/1000uF and 1x 16V/1000V. Comparison is done by comparing identical values, having the following new caps in stock:

25V/470uF:
- TK Jovial
- Nichicon KZ
- Elna SilmicII (RFS series)

25V/1000uF
- TK Jovial
- Nichicon KZ
- Elna SilmicII (RFS series)
- BC Vishay 021 ASM (axial)
- Old axial Elna cap recovered from a 1975 Kenwood amp (output coupling cap), for comparing old with new caps...

Perhaps I buy some Nichicon FG/FW/KW series and/or Panasonic FM/FC with the same values over the weekend, to amend the following tests, though I know already that these are no winner over the Nichicon KZ, which is unbeaten for me up to this date.

Besides identical values, aging (even if new) is another issue, and to compare more accurately, these caps should in fact first be reformed for 6~24 hrs to become equally 'aged' again, but let's start off without doing so (the effect of reforming I tested before showed less then 15% difference for such small new caps, big power supply caps is another story).

Ok, first a group picture of all caps under test (excluding the old Elna, see further down).



The TK Jovials are very small compared to the Nichicon/Elna caps of the same working voltage/capacity. That's normaly not a good thing, from experience by measurement.

First up for test are the 25V/470uF.

Measurements were stopped at 30 kHz, as the caps were hitting their resonance frequency; no point in testing any further. Maximum usuable frequency for the TK Jovial is 5~6 kHz, while the Nichicon and Elna are double of that. Note that the Nichicon KZ are always lower capacity then other caps (dunno why, but it's a fact, see 1000uF below as well)



Next is phase shift; if you would intend to use this cap for coupling or feedback purposes; again the Nichicon and Elna are performing MUCH better than the TK Jovial (the TK Jovial is actually pretty BAD):



Then the ESR and impedance; the ESR of the TK Jovial is double of the Nichicon and Elna (Nichicon KZ rules again ! )



The dissipation (tan D) figures... making the curve show the reason why stating their value at a datasheet at a single frequency is sooooo no use. At 1 kHz, the dissipation of all caps is always 'looking good'.

Next up for comparison testing are the 25V/1000uF caps. In addition of the Nichicon KZ and Elna SilmicII, I added two axial caps for comparison fun. Well, that 'fun' revealed a surprise.... So a new Vishay BC 021 ASM (ex Philips product line), and pretty old 1975 Elna, which used to be an output coupling cap in a Kenwood KA-2002A amp (and that's a critical location...), I bought the Vishay's as a replacement for the old Elna (ongoing rebuild project).

Group pic



I knew the old Philips were good, I didn't know the modern Vishay BC versions are that good: almost equal to the unbeaten Nichicon KZ (read: better than the Elna SilmicII).

The Vishay BC also proof that 'bigger ain't by definition better', while the Nichicon KZ / Elna SilmicII measure 16(D)x36(L), the Vishi measures 12.5(D) x 30(L); somebody could calculate the volume being significant less.

Ok, enough talk, here are the curves; first the capacity again. Measurements where stopped at 20 kHz as the caps were hitting resonance frequency. As said above, the Nichicon has a capacity value well below the nominal value; that's what they always are. The old grey Elna holds a firm highest value. The Vishay BC holds best linear performance, up to resonance frequency.



Phase shift: the Vishay BC settles nicely in between the Nichicon KZ (best cap) and the Elna Silmic II. The TK Jovial ??? as good/bad as the 37 year old Elna cap (no comment...)



The following ESR/Z graph contains two important conclusions:
1) The TK Jovial performs (badly) as the 37 year Elna cap (or: bravo for the old Elna cap...)
2) The Vishay BC scores as good as the best-of-class Nichicon KZ, the Elna SilmicII has 40~50% higher ESR than the Nichicon KZ/Vishay BC 021 ASM.



And the dissipation (tan d) curves as the final result. The old grey Elna has (not surprisingly) the worst disspation performace.

Conclusions:

1) The TK Jovial series are far away of being good audio caps compared with other available quality audio caps.

2) Recapping a 70's vintage amp full of Elna's by using the TK Jovial will not improve anything, other then extending the amp's lifespan by preventing failures of old caps.

3) The TK Jovials are certainly not to be used in the signal path.

4) The pricing of the TK Jovial should be around 10 cent each, not $5.

EDIT, forgot to list:

1) The TK Jovials have ferrous leads, while the Elna/Nichicon/Vishay BC have cupper leads

2) The TK Jovials have no manufacturing date printed on them :gigglemad ; the Elna/Nichicon/Vishay BC do have. I just dislike manufacturers who refuse to be clear about their product. In fact, that might explain why they are not found in Europe/US: electronic equipment sold there must be compliant with certain IEC standards for electronic componenents.

Wow. Great work oilmaster!

You certainly came through on the analysis. Kudos!

Now to unsolder some Jovials.

cut a long story short which are the best all rounders from your tests ?

Fascinating oilmaster, thanks! I'd love to see stats from lower "audio grade" Nichicons. I'm not usually able to find KZs in the ratings I'm looking for, so I have to often resort to KW, FW, KT, etc.

best all around

petehall347 said:

cut a long story short which are the best all rounders from your tests ?

Click to expand...

It seems that this set of test favors

Nichicon KZ series.

Unless I read it wrong

petehall347 said:

cut a long story short which are the best all rounders from your tests ?

Click to expand...

I have done many comparison tests before with many other caps brands/series not listed here, and the Nichicon KZ come always out best. Power supply caps is a complete different story, but the big bro Nichicon KG are VERY good measuring caps as well, so the KZ and KG together make a serious combination

rjsilva said:

I'd love to see stats from lower "audio grade" Nichicons. I'm not usually able to find KZs in the ratings I'm looking for, so I have to often resort to KW, FW, KT, etc.

Click to expand...

There are two issues with the KZ series: they are manufactured in limited choice of values where half of the each project always need other values, and the KZ are not cheap either. Indeed, resorting to the KW/FW/FG/FX series is the only option for Nichicon. But they are not the same league as the KZ. The big advantage of the Elna Silmic II is the enormous range in each voltage class, so you can stay with one brand across the entire unit (and they do sound good too, in my personal opinion)

I just bought a whole bunch of ''lower'' grade Nichicon FG today, as to compare against the Elna Silmic II. Also came across a large selection of Elna Cerafines (pre-Silmic product), and got some.

But you have to know that these tests takes a LOT of time, one by one at each frequency. Perhaps in the weeks to come, perhaps later. Not sure in which forum to put that up: vintage solid state or DIY?