Annie Lennox: ‘Twerking is synonymous with feminism. I do not agree.’

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Annie Lennox is doing press these days to promote her new album, Nostalgia, which is almost entirely jazz standards and the like (think Cole Porter and Gershwin). Usually I think the whole idea of pop singers putting out jazz-standard albums is a pretty blatant money-grab/relevancy-clutch, but in Annie’s case… I’d really like to hear her do Gershwin and Cole Porter. I imagine it’s enchanting because Annie is a goddess/icon/queen.

The last time I covered her, she had mentioned – almost in passing – that she didn’t really care for Beyonce’s style of feminism. Annie branded Beyonce “feminist lite.” It didn’t really seem like shade-throwing, more like an intellectual assessment of what it means to be a feminist historically and where Beyonce falls short. Well, Annie has a new interview with The Daily Beast and they asked her about the Beyonce stuff again. Once again, Annie didn’t back down and she didn’t get personal. She’s enjoying this conversation!

Lennox said she thought she was being asked in general terms. And yes, she considers Beyoncé a bit less than women like Eve Ensler, author of The Vagina Monologues. “There is a spectrum in feminism, it’s very broad. It’s very contentious and it’s really complicated.”

“What has happened is I’ll have said something in a sentence, fairly innocuous, and of course the editors look for those little things to tease, they go though it with a fine tooth comb and pull that one thing and make a strapline on top of it,” she says. “They’re all about making it into some sort a battle… I’m thrilled to see the word ‘feminist’ behind Beyoncé, are you kidding me? I think it’s fantastic.”

That said, Lennox does have issues with the way the way the word “feminism” has been thrown around. “There’s a mixed message,” she says. “If you twerk, if you stick out your whatever, if you do that, you’re empowered. That’s where we’re at right now: twerking is synonymous with feminism. I do not agree. It‘s not empowerment from my perspective. It’s demeaning. There’s nothing wrong with sexuality. Sexuality is a fantastic thing, but in performance when people have a very young audience, it’s totally inappropriate.”

[From The Daily Beast]

Annie reminded me of that Tori Amos interview I covered a few months ago. Tori was asked about Miley Cyrus and twerking and all of that, and Tori managed to both defend Miley and talk substantively about what sexual empowerment should really look like. That’s what Annie is saying too – owning your sexuality is great. Every woman should be able to define their sexuality however they want. But not every public display of sexuality can be equated to a feminist act.

There are other great parts of this Lennox interview too – Lennox managed to side-step a tricky question about her feelings on Israel and Palestine. She also mentioned the outpouring of hatred she got for backing the “Better Together” campaign against Scottish Independence. Just before the referendum vote last month, Annie told a reporter that she’d “like to see the Scots put their hatred of the English aside and grow up just a little bit. We should be way beyond that now. It’s actually slightly embarrassing.” Apparently, Annie got so much hate mail she almost quit social media.

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Photos courtesy of Fame/Flynet.

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225 Responses to “Annie Lennox: ‘Twerking is synonymous with feminism. I do not agree.’”

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  1. LB says:

    So this is what it sounds like when an entertainer talks about feminism knowledgeably – with actual experience and education on her side? It’s refreshing!

    • Yup, Me says:

      This is also what it sounds like when a white feminist makes questionable statements (read: judgements) about the choices that folks of other cultures should make for themselves.

      See Artemis’s statement below.

      • wolf says:

        Why turn this into a white/black issue? She’s referring to the issue of feminism in the UK and America, from whence most of these artists hail. And she is spot on.

      • Anna says:

        @Yup, me YES. She seems to have no concept of intersectionality in feminism and it’s not her job to decide what’s okay and what’s not empowering for black women or WOC (which is essentially what she’s doing). Her statements are ridiculous and she seems to not even consider black culture (where twerking was a dance for decades). Miley isn’t synonymous with twerking or any other black dance she decides to take on, what she’s doing is like vocal blackface.
        Annie Lennox should be quiet and if she wants to make comments about feminism again she should specify she’s directing it at white feminists and women because she has no place in any other conversation. She’s so out of touch it’s laughable (but also incredibly frustrating).

      • Lex says:

        @Anna you are so far off base it’s laughable. Do you realize you just said Miley twerking is “like vocal blackface”….. vocal blackface is NOT a thing and trying to coin this idiotic term is undermining what actual blackface is.

  2. Kaya says:

    Plus: It’s not empowering when you use sexuality as a blatant money-grab, too, decided by a boardroom of rich old men.

    • Sumodo1 says:

      Beautifully said.

    • otaku fairy says:

      So you’re saying that it’s just boardrooms of rich-old men making all these women do this against their will, and that if it weren’t for those men, all these women would abstain from nudity, sensual dance moves, and revealing clothes?

      That’s one of my problems with the “That’s not empowerment, the men are just forcing them to do it” argument. Ignoring the fact that the person who makes this argument is arbitrarily deciding what can and can’t be empowering for other women, it also carries the assumption that women can’t possibly be drawn to overt sexuality themselves, and only participate in it when men make them do it.

      • wolf says:

        Unless you’re living under a rock, yes most top executives in the music and movie industry are white males.

      • Chem says:

        Beyonce does it for money, don’t think she does it for love to art, if that was the case , she would be giving her songs and concerts for free.

      • Jayne says:

        @Chem you cant possibly know whats in Beyonces head. She said she found making her last album (the sexual one) very empowering. Its very upsetting to see this brand of feminists who dismiss other women with differing perspectives as agents of god-knows-what. Now whats more patriarchal than attempting to tell a grown woman what she feels or what she is allowed to find empowering?

      • Chem says:

        @Jayne
        I don’t see anything wrong with not agreeing with someone’s points of views. Woman or not if you don’t agree with beyonce and many people neither.

        Women should support each other but that doesn’t mean that they are always correct.

  3. Gayle says:

    There seems to be some confusion between OWNING ones sexuality, and SELLING it.

    Annie, as always, gets it right.

    It’s the commodification of sex that is the issue.

    • Miffy says:

      Ooh, you nailed it! I’ll be using that owning vs. selling line in future.

    • HH says:

      Oh Gayle! Your comment has made the birds’ singing that much sweeter this morning. 🙂

      I’m very sick of female stars branding their hyper sexuality as empowerment. To be totally honest, I’m not sure if I’m sick of the idea itself, or the fact that EVERYONE seems to be doing it. As if there is no other way to feel empowered. It just seems like everyone bought a ticket on the same train ride without asking if there were other routes.

    • minime says:

      That pretty sums it up!

      I think it’s tiring this attempt to call everything as “owning their sexuality” just to justify what is pretty obviously the feeding of a society that still sees women as objects.

    • Sumodo1 says:

      Thank you!

    • Artemis says:

      It only ‘sold’ when white women started doing it. It just shows how white feminism is only knowledgeable about all things white. I didn’t hear a peep from Lennox or other feminists when it was in the R&B community for 2 decades. Nor do I hear a peep about the background of twerking which is West-African. Dance is a way to express yourself and that can be very empowering, who is Lennox to judge what is empowering and what is not? Isn’t that up to the person moving THEIR body to decide? So what is the criteria? Where are the examples of dance that are deemed empowering? I’m really curious actually.

      It’s always on the surface but I guess people don’t need much to justify their white ideas about typical black dances. And I actually get the criticism in regards to selling sexuality but the discussions are not very informative nor intellectual. Twerking is discussed because white people started doing and I see is black people still being targeted (it is their culture after all) after white people jumped off the bandwagon. They can do that, Beyoncé et. al. have to eat it. Cultural relevance is also not important in these discussions. It saddens me.

      • Delia says:

        + a million

      • judyjudyjudy says:

        Thanks for the divisive comment attacking her credibility on the topic of sexual dancing in front of young audiences because she is white. So embarrassing in 2015 to read.

      • Dani2 says:

        @judy that’s not what Artemis is doing but well done to you for putting words in her mouth.

        @Artemis I agree 100%.

      • Trillion says:

        Why would Lennox have commented on it when it “was in the R&B community”? She’s speaking of it in a context that makes sense for her. Thought that was obvious.

      • Artemis says:

        judy

        I’m sorry but white artists can do whatever they want and then they move on to their next phase without much hassle or damage to their career. E.g (Madonna who practically invented appropriation, Stefani with her Harajuku girl or bindi wearing phase and artists who twerk at present. But Beyonce ‘twerks’ and it’s just another thing that people add on the list of reasons to dismiss her artistic expression as ‘sexually demeaning herself’. As someone mentioned in this thread: what about Dita Von Teese. People on CB love her, I wonder what they would say if Lennox dared to touch the subject of white women’s artistic expressions? Not that I see that happening soon.

        Lennox et. al. all profit from white privilege, whenever they do or say something, it’s like they’re assumed more intelligent and versed but all they do is pit women against each other and criticize without giving solutions or advice on how to change. When Beyonce opens her mouth, she’s dismissed because she’s inarticulate, illiterate, uneducated etc etc. If people can give Cyrus the benefit of the doubt when she discusses feminism, you know there is a specific bias at work.

        Also, you had no comment on the background of twerking. Wonder why?

        @trillion

        When you agree to discuss a topic, I would expect a bit more depth than something that has been reiterated many times over by less intelligent people. You cannot talk about twerking at present without acknowledging that it’s WHITE WOMEN who appropriated it for their image. She seems clueless to the cultural background just like many people who don’t give a flying eff about black culture and its impact. But keep defending her, by all means. In depth knowledge never seemed necessary in these type of debates. Sigh.

      • Jaded says:

        @judyjudyjudy – thanks for your comment! To lay an accusation of cultural divisiveness on this is wrong. You can’t compare what a historical dance movement originally was to what the Miley Cyrus’s of the entertainment world are doing. They’ve appropriated and turned it into something utterly lewd and full of blatant faux m*sturbation, fell*tio and cr*tch grabbing. Not cool at all and both demeans women and influences young girls to think that overtly sexual behaviour is the most important means of being acceptable to the opposite sex. This is not feminism, it reduces women to nothing more than some guy’s wet dream.

      • aang says:

        Look for the Teletubby Boom Boom dance on you-tube. Preschoolers twerking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjInZNakWbg. When it is done clothed, in a community setting it retains its dignity.

      • Little chick says:

        Um, it’s not a race thing. I used to live in Grand Cayman where most of the Caymanians are dark skinned. When a teenage girl from the island was discovered on youtube dancing like that, or ‘whining’ as they call it, there was an uproar. They were very upset that a young girl from their island should be behaving like that in broad daylight at a parade. The girl was dark skinned, the people upset were dark skinned caribbean people. It has to do with having self respect, whatever your background.

      • snowflake says:

        well this white woman never heard of twerking until it became mainstream. and i’m 38. so there could be a slight possibility that she only recently learned what it was. if you wanna shake your ass, go for it, white, black, purple or pink, whatever color/nationality you are, I don’t care. but miley looks like an idiot doing it. and it’s sad that these women performers, beloved Beyonce and miley, can’t do a performance without doing a stripper routine or a lap dance. maybe when women realize they can perform with their talent, not their body, they will stop being looked at so much as a sexual object. i think annie was saying she didn’t think beyonce should be performing so sexually when a lot of her audience is young girls. but you’re right in that beyonce should not be the only one addressed on that front. and i know, beyonce did her lap dance for her husband in an effort to make it more socially acceptable. but to be honest with you, no wonder women walk around with no clothes on and seem to derive their self-esteem from their sexual attractiveness to men. when female performers, white, black, pink or purple, can’t seem to perform without looking or acting like a stripper. just because someone happens to make a comment about a non-white performer does not automatically mean racism, ffs

      • Artemis says:

        @ little chick

        of course not every black culture will affiliate themselves with the dance. that’s not what I said at all. I gave specific examples and those people happen to be black, that’s why I said black culture not every black person on this planet.

        @ snowflake

        Ignorance is never an excuse. Full stop. A simple Google search on twerking isn’t hard work unless you’re not interested in it really and you just want to criticise for the sake of it.

        You don’t care ‘BUT’. So you do care and now it matters if you look good or not which doesn’t make sense because Beyonce is good at it and she’s insulted too. Ciara is extremely good at dancing and also at twerking but nobody cared when she did it.

        ‘women performers’? Either English isn’t your first language or you’re showing your sexism.

        So a stripper is not talented? I think it’s pretty damn difficult to hang around a pool pure on upper body strength and perform complicated moves all the while being careful you don’t fall on your head tbh. Loads of people strip, mothers, students (on the rise actually just like escorting), people who work in an office during the day and make extra cash at night it’s not just the working class dysfunctional stereotypes you know.

        Well, next time there is a post about burlesque dancing (fancy stripping I suppose) I’ll make sure I keep tabs on the people who always bring up stripping in an insulting manner. E.g. when the ex-gf of Clooney are defended against evil Amal ‘is she really that accomplished?’ Alamuddin. Or when Dita talks about the art of corseting which I find an awful practice. People flip sides here all the time.

        Beyonce’s audience are certainly not girls. At least teenagers and above. She’s not Britney or Katy who make poppy music for tweens.

        What are you talking about exactly? Stripping, lapdancing or twerking because you mix them up like they’re all the same and it’s not. They’re all types of dance who can be performed without making money.

        no wonder women walk around with no clothes on and seem to derive their self-esteem from their sexual attractiveness to men.

        Explain why women from earlier generations had the same kind of issues yet fewer of the sexually charged performers? Magazines and media always focused on the sexual attractiveness of women, their bodies and what they should do in general. I’ll be waiting.

      • Nick says:

        Yes yes yes @ Artemis. Everything you’ve said has been spot on!

      • Wilma says:

        Good, someone already said it. + 1000
        There is a whole lot more to twerking than Miley Cyrus trying to sell records.

      • Mira says:

        @Artemis

        I agree with a lot of what you say but could you please clarify a few things for me? I suppose I don’t think Beyonce has to “eat it” – to me she is one of the most respected, celebrated performers in the world who, in her words, has been “building her throne.” That’s a purposeful marketing tactic by her vs. the “reinvention” tactic.

        Is your primary criticism that white feminists only care to intellectualize when it’s white women performers? I agree with this but I guess there’s some understandable factors at play here. Given U.S. History, white people are heavily criticized when they comment on black culture and generally are made to feel like they should just shut their mouths because they don’t know what they’re talking about. I think a lot of white people don’t want to criticize twerking before Miley did it because they were more amenable to the conclusion that it’s cultural. Once Miley does it, it becomes very clear that it’s selling sexuality. Before, if we’re being realistic, Annie Lennox would’ve gotten reemed by everyone for saying such a thing.

        I also am trying to reconcile two of your points. I’m going to explain a then maybe you’ll clarify what I’m not getting. I understand while cultural misappropriation gets a knee jerk offended reaction, but I think it is completely subject to the selling point. Music has always exploited whatever it could to sell, in that way it’s not really discriminatory at all, it just is more obvious when it exploits a minority. True, it can be harmful by pushing a static, narrow image image of a culture. But you also say (and I agree with) that people have a basic duty to do some of their own due diligence – that should also apply in this instance. I think arguments criticizing cultural “misappropriation” run counter to the ultimate goal of understanding different cultures. It’s basically saying a music video is just giving one narrow aspect of a culture and they shouldn’t do that, which ends up telling the audience that they shouldn’t have to do any additional research into the culture. I think the introduction of new cultures into society is a wonderful thing, and that instead of telling people not to make music videos of cultures that aren’t theirs, we should encourage the audience to view them with a grain of salt and then educate themselves with a simple google search.

      • Jaquebelle says:

        You nailed it!!! I bow down!!! One love.

      • sarah says:

        @Artemis
        Bless you!!!!!

      • snowflake says:

        if it’s so empowering and not aimed at men, why don’t we see more men taking off their clothes, doing lapdances, and twerking? because it’s bullshit. you don’t see beyonce taking off her clothes and twerking when she’s not on stage. or miley. rihanna owns her sexuality, she walks around half-naked; miley and beyonce are just doing it for the male fanbase. miley’s also doing it because she’s going through a rebellious period.

        just because beyonce’s black doesn’t mean we can’t call her out on it. I don’t like vita von teese’s schtick either; but people are not saying she’s doing it because she’s empowered or celebrating her culture. iin other words, people aren’t making excuses for her. imo, you’re stretching with the whole it’s her culture, we just don’t like it because she’s black. I have nothing against stripping, twerking, lap dances. I just think it’s sleazy. I’m allowed to have my opinion. it has nothing to do with race. miley’s nasty as hell. Oh and just because I don’t know about a culture doesn’t make me ignorant. just like you prob don’t know all the history behind my culture, race and country. no one can know everything about every single culture. You’re just being mean.

      • otaku fairy says:

        @Snowflake: “if it’s so empowering and not aimed at men, why don’t we see more men taking off their clothes, doing lapdances, and twerking? because it’s bullshit. you don’t see beyonce taking off her clothes and twerking when she’s not on stage. or miley.”

        Not true, actually. Both Beyonce and Miley wear revealing clothes in other places besides doing stage performances, and Miley has come under fire for dancing suggestively both on stage as well as in private with her friends.

        As for the “It can’t be empowering because more men aren’t doing it” point, men have less of a reason to find revealing costumes and sexuality empowering because for men, sex and their bodies haven’t been turned into such a forbidden fruit. Our society is totally cool with men and teenage boys walking around topless, totally cool with male actors being sexual in movies, and totally cool with men dating and having the sex they want. With women and teenage girls, when it comes to showing skin or being sexual, people have a moral panic about every little thing. In other words, women and girls are given something to want to rebel against. Men and boys are not.

      • BunnyBabe says:

        Artemis, regarding the origin of the the twerking dance move – what is the motivation behind the traditional version of the twerking dance move? Does it hold a cultural significance or is it purely for sexual expression? You seem well versed and I am truly curious.

        It seems to me a bit like the Nazi swastika. They borrowed it from another culture (is there anything new under the sun?) and when they were through it was nothing like the original.

      • Danskins says:

        We’ll said, Artemis – you hit the nail right on the head!!

    • Mingy says:

      OMG this!

      • judyjudyjudy says:

        yes, I found the comment a divisive and insulting one. If you are too toned deaf or living in a cultural silo I can see why you might think it is cool in 2015 to keep it going, but its embarrassing.

      • Yup, Me says:

        Artemis is making clearly explained points about an area of challenge that feminism has yet to effectively address. Your pearl clutching about it and comments about divisiveness come across as the same old effective (and common) derailing tactics.

    • kri says:

      Brilliant, Gayle. Bronze that statement!!

    • judyjudyjudy says:

      I don’t think that is what she meant at all. She is saying the act itself is not feminist or empowering whether one is getting paid or not – and that is doesn’t belong in an act – any act – where the audience is very young.

      Women of all colors have had to do things to survive – including being labeled whores etc in music videos, bit let’s not pretend that was feminism then or now, Just because a woman might choose to degrade herself rather than be told she has to doesn’t make it feminist.

      And I will be surprised if all my comments are posted. I totally acknowledge the irony of my taking topics seriously on a gossip board made solely to sell ads.

      • sigh((s)) says:

        Exactly. Objectifying yourself before others can objectify you is still objectification.

      • otaku fairy says:

        ” Just because a woman might choose to degrade herself rather than be told she has to doesn’t make it feminist.”

        To degrade means to lower in value. When you say that a woman is degrading herself- lowering herself in value- by being sexual in ways you don’t approve of, you’re saying that women’s value lie in how sexually modest they are and what sexual things that they do and don’t do. Which is not feminism, but purity culture rhetoric and traditional sexism all over again. And being sexual- even in ways that are open, crude, and yes, the dreaded ‘unladylike’- or wearing whatever one wants does not automatically equal objectification. To say this implies that personhood is dependent on staying covered up and not ‘being too sexual.

      • snowflake says:

        exactly

      • oh dear says:

        totally agree. besides, you dont see jay z or one direction or whoever is big these days jumps around on stage in speedos/thongs, grinding a stripper pole to sell their records now do you?

        why do women show off their ass cracks, breasts and labia? why do men get away with not showing anything at all and remain more powerful in the grand scheme of things?

        whilst woman used to have a specific role in society, to look pretty and care for children, we think that things have improved. but girls these days are brought up (by pop culture) to look sexy and be promiscuous. how is that any different? where is the power in that?

        how is it empowering to little girls to watch half naked women on stage whilst men wear clothes and let their “talent” speak for itself (= back in the day: wives look pretty for their husbands + the husbands have jobs/real talent and are more respected in society).

        this is – in my opinion – a step back in feminism, because women are now HAPPILY accepting that role and feeling pseudo-empowered.

        the person above me summed it up nicely: ”Just because a woman might choose to degrade herself rather than be told she has to doesn’t make it feminist.”

    • I Choose Me says:

      Perfectly stated.

      +1 to Jaded as well.

    • Lexie says:

      Thank you for summing up so eloquently and succinctly what I’ve been trying to say for years! I’ll be using that “buying vs. selling sexuality” line now as my go-to argument!

    • otaku fairy says:

      There seems to be some confusion between OWNING ones sexuality, and SELLING it.”

      The problem is that people act as if the two are mutually exclusive. Can a person who is an entertainer not put sexuality in their music videos, performances, etc., enjoy putting on revealing costumes… and still, at the same time, be owning their sexuality?

      • But why do they feel they have to sell their sexuality? Male or female. Shouldn’t their talent be enough? You didn’t see Ella Fitzgerald with her tits and ass out to sell albums.

      • otaku fairy says:

        @Tentacle Kitten: Why not? Why should sexuality be that one thing that people have to keep private? Why is overt sexuality that thing that we’re all so afraid of being allowed in the mainstream media? What’s wrong with an entertainer being sexual- whether crudely or subtely- in a music video or some other form of media? What’s unnatural about it?

    • Anne tommy says:

      Agree on that. Disagree re independence. She may have got an unacceptable backlash on her comments- which is wrong- but the majority of those voting for independence certainly don’t hate the English. They voted for self determination- not enough of them unfortunately – for positive not negative reasons. Someone wanting to leave home is not a sign they hate their Parents, they just want to make their own decisions.

  4. Elleno says:

    +1

  5. KIddo says:

    Hmm, I don’t know much about the genesis of the Scottish referendum, but I am cynical about it boiling down to only a petty hatred of the English, without cause.

    • manjit says:

      It’s not totally without cause, but the English are a convenient whipping-boy when the Scots want to absolve themselves of responsibility. It’s like a little kid constantly blaming their sibling for everything. My family are Scottish/Irish and I always joke about everything being my fault ‘coz i was born and brought up in England : )

  6. Josephine says:

    Frankly, she was wrong to say that Scots need to grow up. Coming from the side that has oppressed and terrorized over the years, it’s blatantly obnoxious. I don’t blame her for lobbying for unification, but her comments rankle.

    And it’s too bad discussions of feminism have to pit women against each other. I wish these strong and powerful women would refuse to discuss what other women are doing, and would refuse to judge and rate them. She is powerful enough to get away with putting these questions in their proper place in the trash.

    • V4Real says:

      @Josehine. I don’t usually weigh in on the feminism post but I couldn’t resist the urge to respond to you. I give you two snaps up and a circle on your comment about feminism. I agree with you that all it does is pit women against each other. Has anyone given any thought to why all these celebs are talking about feminism lately. Could it be because it is the interviewer who introduce the topic into the conversation and could there be any chance that most of the interviewers are male. They get women to judge other women by bringing up the word while they sit back with clean hands.

      Maybe I only know the textbook definition of feminism and don’t go around telling everyone I’m a feminist. But if I want women to be treated equal, have equal pay and equal opportunities like men than yes I am a feminist. I guess I’m also a civil rights activist because I want those same three things for Black people. And why does feminism lately seems to be tied to how a female artist shakes her booty on stage. Sometimes the true meaning of the word gets lost when we narrow it down to a specific act. A woman can pose naked for Playboy and still be a feminist or she can be a lead executive on Wall Street and be a feminist. Miley and Bey shaking their goods on stage is nothing but entertainment, that’s all it is. And yes I know Bey had the word feminism posted behind one of her acts but that still doesn’t change that she was just entertaining the audience.

    • idontknowyouyoudontknowme says:

      If we are going by the equality logic…. I agree with owning rather than selling your sexuality blatantly, but why is this sisterhood forced on women? Enable, don’t judge/criticize (even though feminist women are doing the same on anyone who disagrees with some of their specific points,and really its human nature). Men do not “stick together”, if anything competitiveness prevails, and every man for himself…..
      I’m not going to support anyone and excuse their behavior just because they have the same genitals as I do :]

      • Josephine says:

        I’m not talking about supporting and excusing bad behavior. Believe me, there are plenty of women who I think do a tremendous disservice to women in general with their antics. I’m talking about resisting the urge to publicly comment about another women’s version of feminism. For example, she’s discussed before that she’s very anti-plastic surgery, but she didn’t name names. The answer should always be, “This is what I feel comfortable with, this is what it means to me.”

    • Jaded says:

      If strong and intelligent women can’t discuss the meaning of feminism then we take a step back. Discussion and debate help in refining and defining something that has become amorphous in the past decade or so because of the overt sexualisation of young female music stars by dirty old men who are handling their careers. It angers me to see how young girls don’t seem to have a clue that the original focus of feminism was to give women the right to vote, the power to educate themselves, equal pay and opportunity. In this world today there are millions of women who live like prisoners, can’t go to school, can’t show their faces, can’t work, have to go into arranged marriages, are routinely forced to have horrific surgery to render them “de-sexualized”, etc.

      Young women today who have fame, money and influence should use their power to bring awareness and meaningful change to the world instead of thinking that feminism all about how empowering twerking is.

      • otaku fairy says:

        “…the overt sexualisation of young female music stars by dirty old men who are handling their careers…”

        But why does the assumption have to be ‘dirty old men are making all these poor young women sexualize themselves?” Is it really so hard to believe that a young woman would want to wear revealing costumes? Especially if she’s a young woman who was always pressured to dress conservatively in the past- is it really hard to think that overt sexuality appeals to a lot of these young women?

      • MaiGirl says:

        Because it is dirty old men with the power, Otaku. And let’s not forget that this type of overt sexuality is basically de rigueur for female stars, especially music artists. Maybe some of them do prefer to present themselves that way. So what? That in no way changes the dynamic as a whole.

      • otaku fairy says:

        @MaiGirl: To me whether or not each of them wants to do it or not matters a great deal. If the people an entertainer is working with- whether those people are men or women- are making a young female entertainer be sexual beyond what she wants to be, that’s a serious problem- they’re exploiting her. But if the entertainer actually wants to wear revealing costumes and be sexual, then that’s just a young adult doing what they want to do, and they should not have to cover up and be ladylike just because other women feel that their legal and perfectly consensual actions are ‘inappropriate’. One is victimization and coersion, the other is personal choice.

        Also, overt sexuality is not something every female entertainer does. Sure, Miley and Beyonce do it, but Taylor Swift and Adele don’t, and there are plenty of female singers who are somewhere in between.

      • This x10000000000

        I’m sick of it.

    • Anna says:

      I agree with this-the public pitting of women against each other in regards to who best upholds the social standards needs to stop.

      Men compete against each other all the time but specific actors aren’t going around Hollywood calling other specific actors out for plastic surgery, who stays home with the kids (or doesn’t), who got a penis enlargement or didn’t wear a shirt that day and what all that says about them as a person. No one has ever, say, asked George Clooney to give his personal opinions on the social ramifications and the “setback of male culture” in regards to Channing Tatum’s performance in Magic Mike.

      But this is at least the third interview I’ve seen where Annie Lennox was specifically asked about Beyoncé.

  7. Amy says:

    She is terrific, and this is not her first rodeo with standards. Back in 1990, she was part of a compilation recording called “Red, Hot & Blue” to benefit AIDS research. Her rendition of Cole Porter’s “Every Time We Say Goodbye” was stunning. I’m looking forward to hearing her new record. Also, she was on National Public Radio yesterday saying much the same thing about feminism & sexuality. She’s an artist in the truest sense of the word, and one of the few famous people I’d actually want to invite over for dinner.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hot_%2B_Blue

    • wolf says:

      Agreed! The first thing I thought of when reading this post was the beautiful homage to Cole Porter she performed on that record. She is no stranger to jazz and this is not an attempt by some ageing artist to make a few bucks. I also agree with her wholeheartedly on the feminism issue. Bravo.

  8. GoodNamesAllTaken says:

    I agree with everything she said about feminism, the spectrum and sexuality. Everything.

  9. Reader says:

    From where I’m standing, she’s sounding like an annoying older version of Goopy – “expert on everything”.

    • Danskins says:

      Agree 100% – Annie’s a recipient of white priveledge and seems to possess very little knowledge of other cultures that don’t involve white people. She has no right to judge other’s cultures because she simply doesn’t agree with them. Frankly there’s nothing especially revelatory about her tired, cliched comments on feminism especially since they come off as bigoted and exclusionary.

  10. JudyK says:

    Love Annie Lennox, love her music. “Walking on Broken Glass” was my favorite and completely described my life at one point.

    She’s also smart and she’s got the feminism thing down pat.

  11. Sabrine says:

    I agree. Twerking is definitely not a feminist act. It’s one of the most demeaning things I’ve seen women do to themselves in decades. But the lure of attention and/or money trumps self-respect.

    • Artemis says:

      Twerking isn’t invented by white people but ever since they started doing it last year, people have been having discussions about it. It’s a hip hop/R&B move that goes way back to the 90s and moved into the early 00’s. Even Beyoncé was already singing about twerking (and doing it) in ‘Check on It’. Ciara was twerking a lot in ‘Work’. But too bad they couldn’t profit from it back then. Thank god for white women, now it has become part of popular culture in no time after 2 decades of nobody giving a toss.
      Plus it has elements of West-African dances and isn’t only done by women.

      Also, it’s typical that hip hop moves (black people dance) are always deemed too sexual when you have plenty of other slow professional dances e.g. ballet and contemporary (white people dance) where people are put into skintight skintone outfits with outline of secondary sex characteristics visible and people dancing very provocatively and sensual with each other. I’ll wait for the day when people start calling that type of dance non-feminst and demeaning instead of graceful and beautiful! Every dance tells a story, why isn’t twerking allowed to do so?

      • Birdix says:

        I sincerely appreciate the point you are making and find it thought-provoking. A few challenges on the second paragraph. Talking about the costumes is different from talking about movement, in ballet and contemporary dance people generally object to the male costumes (and it’s inescapably tinged with homophobia). There has been some talk about nudity in ballet/contemporary dance and whether dancers feel compelled by directors to go along with it, but because the concert dance world has so much less scope, frankly few people paid attention. The success of the Alvin Ailey company contradicts your calling contemporary dance white people dance–that is by far the most beloved and successful contemporary dance company. And many many people call ballet non-feminist–it’s extremely hierarchical and old school and despite being the stars and the majority of the students, women for the most part do not have any power. It’s a troubling, backward subculture in that way. As for whether ballet’s selling an extremely sublimated sexuality is less feminist than twerking? that’s an fascinating question, thanks for raising it.

      • Duckie says:

        Yes to everything you said Artemis! Since twerking has become mainstream ( read : appropriated by people like Miley Cyrus) it has been described as everything wrong with the world without even thinking about the context. For example, many West- Indian dances are very sensual does that mean whoever practices them courts the male gaze and wants to sell sex?

      • Trillion says:

        I think the difference is context. Nobody gives a crap when white strippers do it either.

      • Artemis says:

        Birdix

        Obviously, you speak from a knowledge base because most people would not bring up the points you did. And they are legit. To me though, there is a difference when hip hop is just as mainstream as ballet (everybody knows what it is on a basic level) but hip hop moves are scrutinized on a global scale unlike ballet. Maybe that is because hip hop is more prevalent in popular culture but you wouldn’t hear people discussing a sexual charged contemporary dance move in tight clothing. That would be ‘art’. I see and hear it all the time. I saw art projects with people taking off their clothes and to me it was art because the dance was central, they were trained and the bodies were telling beautiful stories. Then I also see people online huffing and puffing about Beyonce’s leotards when leotards are basic items when attending dance classes for instance. They are clueless to me. All of these types of dances are quite prevalent and accessible yet hip hop is the one that is always criticized negatively.

        Misty Copeland recently talked about the racism in the ballet world. You should read it, easy to find. I know it’s changing but 1 company doesn’t mean a thing when the majority of them are racist as hell As a biracial woman, I can tell you that the majority of ballet companies are filled with white people. My friends can tell you the same. And we all have traveled, we have experiences outside of Europe with this. A stereotypical curvy body is not accepted and you stand out between white skinny (often eating disorders) girls. I can see why a black child would be hesitant to step in that world. And it’s sad when they can’t even go into a black dance like hiphop because there will be a point where they will have to feel shame when moves like ‘twerking’ are insulted on a global scale all because of white people and their need to steal and subsequently make another culture look ridiculous all for the purpose of their pockets and enjoyment. Seriously pisses me off that black people can’t benefit from it like white people can.

      • Birdix says:

        You are right about the ballet world. I don’t know if I would say individuals in the ballet world are racist, because they are all pretty marginalized anyway and tend to be an open-minded group, but institutionlly it’s overwhelmingly white. Arthur Mitchell tried to change things in the 60s, and Virginia Johnson is continuing his legacy at DTH but it’s still shocking how little things have actually changed. I was speaking more of the contemporary dance world (somewhat overlapping but still pretty separate) when I brought up Alvin Ailey. Admittedly, despite his greatness and that amazing company, there’s still a lot of room for change in that world, too. And your point is taken about sexuality in ballet being looked at in a different light–look at Nijinsky in Afternoon of a Faun! Or even Balanchine’s Bugaku as an example of fairly explicit sexuality as well as cultural appropriation.

      • Seriously…who pooped in your cornflakes? I really didn’t want to get into this with you but as you’ve spread this all over the thread I kinda feel like I have to ask. Do you not realize that trying to split this along racial lines is a little facetious? It really grinds my gears when people feel like they have to tear down the efforts of others to start conversations about positive empowerment and self exploitation to simply a black/white/brown/yellow thing. In this case twerking is only an EXAMPLE of the way female artists in this day and age are leading the charge to exploit themselves and trying to call that feminism. Its not about the cultural appropriation which is a separate issue [personally I feel as if the traditional West African dance form was cooped by the hip hop community as an excuse to oversexualize women more. I’ve been around the hip hop dance community a long time and yes while there was twerking being done well before Miley there was a marked difference 5-10 years ago or more about the use of it as a dance move]. I could also bring up the hypersexualized Lolita persona used by Ariana Grande which frankly disturbs me more than any amount of twerking. But that wasn’t the point. Feminism is about equality. Female. Male. Back. White. End of story. Arguing that someone is more or less a feminist based on race alone only sets us all back.

        I find it ironic/hypocritical that you and Otaku Fairy are shouting at the tops of your lungs here about DONT JUDGE…yet you both have committed that same sin.

      • snowflake says:

        @ Tentacle Kittten

        YES YES YES! this!

      • bonsai mountain says:

        Well said, Artemis. I think mainstream feminism has a race problem, and while I love Annie Lennox, I do wish she would stop making these sweeping assertions about feminism that fail to address how white women and women of colour are perceived and treated in the fight for equality. It’s a little more complicated than “Look! Adele and Taylor Swift are talented AND they cover up, bad Beyonce doesn’t. Floozy!”

      • Trashaddict says:

        Artemis, it might be easier for people to listen more thoughtfully to what you are saying, if you didn’t engage in generalizations like this: “white people and their need to steal and subsequently make another culture look ridiculous all for the purpose of their pockets and enjoyment”. I would like to hear your definition of feminism at it’s most basic. I keep hearing about the schism between what feminism means to black women and white women – is there a common ground or are there differences in core beliefs that are just so basic that it doesn’t make sense to try to reach that place?

      • Pepsi Presents...Coke says:

        Balanchine was an interesting case in that he actively lobbied for the casting of more Black dancers, both male and female. It didn’t happen because that would have revenue death, but he tried. This was all before he went to the States and started chatting up Suzanne.

        Blackness, especially American was the rage in Paris during that moment and we are all aware artists, including ballet dancers left America not just for more opportunities but for safety. In the case of one dancer who ended up permanently relocating to Holland, her troupe (which besides her was all-white) was harrassed by the Klan for not firing her. Leo Termin/Theremin (inventor of the instrument) had a young wife who was a Black ballet dancer named Lavinia Williamsand his American career was all but destroyed because she would perform with him. She danced, he played, it was a mess, the death threats were constant. Massine wanted to hire a Black ballerina (I can’t remember for which show) because he was so taken with her talent… but she would have to be painted white. She went home and cried and didn’t take the role. That was then.

        Today: for how many years was Misty Copeland relegated to the chorus? It’s HUGELY common for Black ballerinas to be stuck in chorus Purgatory. She described being in rooms with instructors who told the girls to make sure they stayed as pale as possible and for how long have Black women been told that their bodies just aren’t physically designed for ballet when everybody knows now and knew then that this is simply NOT TRUE?

        Alright, all of those Black women aligned themselves with ‘legitimate’ art, so everything should be coming up roses for them, right?Why does this happen? Isn’t ballet sufficiently respectable to change the conversation? So, they perform ‘controversial’ moves: think of the children, they perform ‘art’, and are shoved out of the way and demeaned. Wouldn’t it be easier if someone just handed out a manual telling Black women what they can do, because it’s hard to know.

      • Jenny says:

        I have kept out of this because I truly do see both sides. I know I’m late to the party, so likely no one will see this anyhow. However, anyone who has ever taken a class on liberation movements, feminism, etc. or probably even studied the extremely famous Sojourner Truth speech, knows that there has, since the inception of feminist groups in the West, been a schism between or exclusion of women who were not white (similar situation with LGTBQ rights movements). To act as though this is or has not been the case or no longer needs to be addressed is extremely disingenuous and it is beginning to make me upset. Just because exclusionary feminism made great strides for equality (greater strides for white women than others) does not mean that the discussion does not need to continue to make feminism address the issues and needs of ALL women. I think what people are picking up on is Lennox’s use of twerking as a catch-all for over sexualization of female performers when there are white artists like Ariana Grande or Katy Perry with their candy coated, child marketed, overtly sexualized personas that would probably be more apt examples.

        While I personally do not believe that twerking in and of itself is a feminist act, I absolutely do not think twerking and being a feminist are mutually exclusive. There is always a lot of grey in this world. Some women choose to be overtly sexual and that may or may not be a choice influenced by a male gaze; however, judging that choice as degrading is problematic and continuing to judge women by antiquated views on modesty and how we assess the value of women in our society.

        Sorry for being so ramble-y and weird, but my opinions on this are a little complicated and maybe a little convoluted.

    • otaku fairy says:

      Just because a woman dances or is sexual in a way that offends your sensitivities doesn’t mean she lacks self-respect, though. Self-respect is not about what sexual things a woman does or does not abstain from. There are modestly-dressed women and girls who have had little to no sexual experience and would never dream of doing a sensual dance move, but lack self-respect, and it shows in how they treat others, themselves, and allow themselves to be treated by others. There are also women who like revealing clothes, who yes, have danced in some ways that would make people clutch their pearls, or love sex, but certainly have respect for themselves, and it shows in how they stand up for themselves and the way they treat others. I’ve grown up with women and girls on all ends of this spectrum. It’s really not good to use sexual modesty as the gauge for which we measure a woman’s self-respect or whether or not she’s lowering herself in value- which is what the word degrade means.

  12. Sara says:

    i for one am happy Beyonce is different from Eve Ensler. the Vagina Monologues is such a problematic piece, i dont know how anyone can still think good of it.

    In “The Little Coochie Snorcher that Could”, an underage girl (thirteen in earlier performances, sixteen in the revised version) recounts being given alcohol and then having sex with an adult woman; the incident is recalled fondly by the narrator, who in the original version of the play ends the monologue by saying “if it was rape, it was a good rape.” Her female abuser is portrayed positively as someone “rescuing” her from sexually abusive men of her past

    leaving the colonialism and heterosexism aside, this is so horrible on so many levels.

    • Sumodo1 says:

      Yes, yes, yes! That is the part of TVM that always gives me pause. Thank you, and I appreciate your scholarship.

    • I Choose Me says:

      I’m not familiar with the Vagina Monologues but if that’s true then I agree that is beyond horrible and I’m actually here with my mouth open at the line “if it was rape, it was a good rape.” Seriously WTF?

      Now I’m off to research the topic. As always I appreciate the insight and discussions going on in this thread.

    • snowflake says:

      that is horrible!

  13. AlwaysConfused says:

    I was with her last time, but, IMO, she’s taking it a little too far now — and completely ignoring some aspects of “twerking” — which, depending on how you choose to look at it, could be seen as something that grew out of a cultural dance.

    Personally, I think one of the problems with “feminism” these days, is that a whole lot of people are still married — whether subconsciously or consciously — to the patriarchal definition of how woman should express their sexuality, even though they think they aren’t. And quite frankly, I think female feminists are just as guilty of slut shaming other women — both blatantly and “back-door.”

    And curiously, I’d love to hear Annie’s thoughts on someone like Dita VonTesse — does she have a problem with that? Or is the buxom/pin-up/burlesque/red-lipped/betty-boop character A-OK in terms of feminism?

    • Sara says:

      that dita von Tesse question is a good one. i never understood what is soooo different about burlesque. to me it has always been like Escorts and Prostitutes, there is no big difference, only in the perception of it. one thing is seen as this very sophisticated thing and the other as dirty.

    • feebee says:

      Here’s the rub…. with the patriarchal definition thing – for the all the standing up to it, a lot of this overt sexual stuff performed in the name of feminism is still for the guys. I saw the Iggy/JLo booty video thing the other day and I’m like, hmmmm, yeeeeeeah, righto. Bet the boys in the boardroom loved the concept. That performance was not done with the female audience in mind.

      I was amused at blatantly and “back door” since after seeing that video I can’t help but wish their back doors were so blatantly out there so much.

      Twerking – grew out of cultural dance…. I see the connection. dlisted had an old 80s aerobic video up the other day and I gotta say seeing that reminded me that this twerking stuff was evident in some of those. Those squat holds were they were pulsing really slowly? Twerking in slow motion with just a little less hip thrust! Thank god that fad passed.

    • KIddo says:

      I think she has a point in there that wasn’t clearly defined. You can be a feminist and twerk. But twerking does not, in and of itself, equal feminism. And that’s what some of the newer starlets seem to think. That they have some super strength in the act of arousing others. But that was the limited strength before women were actually empowered. The boundaries of female sexuality began to be pushed with the advent of the pill, where woman could enjoy their sexuality, for pleasure only, without the goal or worry of procreating. What she seems to be questioning is that the empowerment of claiming one’s own sexuality has been pushed so far that it has now set the clock back, where these acts are being done for titillation and the pleasure of others paramount to one’s own pleasure in same; which is where the female sexuality started from, for the enjoyment of men and for giving birth. Garnering attention largely from the pleasantness of appearance FIRST, versus the confidence of showcasing talent as a primary example of female power.

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        But, then aren’t we defining everything through a patriarchal lens? If it arouses men, then, we shouldn’t consider it feminist? I’m playing devil’s advocate a bit, for sure. But, there is just something about Annie’s opinion that has me side-eyeing a bit.

        In a way, I guess I see this — believe it or not — as somewhat connected to everyone’s pearl clutching over Duchess Kate’s wind up the skirt incidents. It’s like we still freak out if we see women in any way sexual — from twerking, to not putting weights in skirts to make sure upper thighs never show in dresses. And of course people will come in with “but it’s not APPROPRIATE.” My answer to that: who defines what’s appropriate, and why do we freak out about a two second wind-blow? The way I see it, if we want to be comfortable about our bodies, we have to stop freaking out about them and what they can do.

      • Kitten says:

        Perfectly stated, Kiddo.

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        Also, getting back to the Dita question: do you not think she “arouses” men?

      • KIddo says:

        @AlwaysConfused, She didn’t call it inappropriate, as far as I recall. She’s just saying it’s nonsense that sexualizing yourself, for the pleasure of others, equals empowerment alone. The fact that there is a reliance on an old standard of women’s inherent value doesn’t push the value of women and other REAL accomplishments further.

      • KIddo says:

        @AlwaysConfused, I don’t follow Dita. I don’t know what her schtick is.
        I don’t think she is saying that women can’t be sexy. The discussion was, in the past, on Miley and other singers. Her point, at least how I parsed it, was that sexuality and attractiveness was driving the attention, moreso, than putting the talent, selected field of carreer front and center, and the dog and pony show-esque levels of exhibitionism second.

      • Kitten says:

        I also don’t think she was singling out twerking per se, just using it as an example to illustrate her point.

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        @ Kiddo – I understand what you’re saying. But the thing with Dita, is that is EXACTLY what she does: sexualizes herself for the enjoyment of others. Like I said, I get your point. My point is that a whole lot of feminist these days are quick to “jump on” twerking, but don’t seem to have the same reaction to other things of the same “nature” – like the burlesque scene. And to me, there is something cultural about it — like women dressing like 1940s strippers, dancing around with tassels on poles, is somehow fine; but twerking, oh hell no! There is a disconnect there, somehow.

      • Kiddo says:

        AlwaysConfused, but that has nothing to do with being a singer though, does it? Pop stars are made by young audiences, burlesque stars aren’t, strippers aren’t. You have to usually, in the US, be of legal age to see them. And they are honest in what their craft is, which is to be sexual for that sake alone. But does that present some advance in female empowerment? I don’t know. Sure she’s deciding to do that, so it’s her choice. But that doesn’t mean that nakedness is empowerment in general. Surely if you want to become a scientist, you wouldn’t want this as a qualification for being seen as feminist, or one who is empowered, by virtue o how good your tatas are. I’m not sure that made sense in the way I’m trying to get across.

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        Pop music has always been about the combo of dancing and singing. Always. So the craft is doing both — in tandem. And twerking isn’t sexual in it of itself — we view it as sexual because of a whole lot of other factors (cultural ones) that come into play.

        Not to mention, every generation has a freak out about some type of popular dance. Back in the day is was “the lambada”, also “dirty dancing” – heck, the twist used to be seen a inappropriate.

        Plus, we chastise female performers more for being overtly sexual, but not as much men. I have a problem with that, personally.

        And, you might not find nakedness empowering, but a whole lot of people do — for various reasons.

        We can go back and forth, we’ll never agree on this point — as I just don’t see twerking as something that is bringing down feminism — or as something “wrong.” If anything (and this is a controversial statement) but I see the western yoga culture as something more detrimental to feminism than twerking (subtly, but forcefully, instilling the idea that women should be soft-spoken (that is the yoga culture), body-conscious, etc….) I know, I know – 99% of people will disagree with that statement, but oh well — it’s how my mind works. 🙂

      • Kitten says:

        “We can go back and forth, we’ll never agree on this point — as I just don’t see twerking as something that is bringing down feminism — or as something “wrong.” ”

        But Kiddo never said that twerking was “wrong”.
        In fact, her point wasn’t about twerking at all and neither was Annie’s.
        You’re probably right that you’ll never agree because you’re arguing about something entirely different.

        A couple weeks ago my friend taught me how to twerk at a seedy “dance club” (and I use that term loosely) outside of Boston. Yes, it was ugly to see my tiny 35-year-old behind trying to twerk but it was all in good fun (and after lots and lots of beer-trust!).
        My point is that no one is condemning a dance move here, simply asking if overt sexualization of women for commercial gains furthers/hinders the feminist movement.

        The comments that Artemis, Brionne and others are making about cultural stigmas and racism in regards to twerking are very interesting ones (thanks for making me think, ladies), but they’re not germane at all to the point that Kiddo is making here.

      • Tiffany :) says:

        Good points all around!
        I don’t have my thoughts cemented in this area. I interpreted Annie’s statements the same way as Kiddo, that “You can be a feminist and twerk. But twerking does not, in and of itself, equal feminism.” That being said, it is interesting to see perspectives that dive deeper into how twerking specifically is handled in pop culture and society.

        There is so much GOOD STUFF to think about on this thread! Thank you Celebitchies for giving me things to mull over. My brain is better off for it. 😀

    • OhDear says:

      Yeah, I think sometimes the term “male gaze” gets used as a more acceptable way of saying “dresses too risque” (see, for example, many mainstream feminists talking about Beyonce).

    • sigh((s)) says:

      But I think there’s also this undercurrent of feminism now that if you don’t put it all out there for everyone to see, then you’re seen as prudish, suppressed and not embracing your sexuality. Why is it that when women don’t show off their tits and twerk they aren’t real women? Men aren’t pressured to embrace their sexuality. You never hear about men in polo shirts being berated by other men for being repressed. Why can’t I not show my ass to everyone because I simply don’t care to? Because it’s mine and I don’t need your eyes all over me to feel respected? I don’t feel that’s a patriarchal sentiment. I feel it’s a comfort in my body and mind not to have to physically display how empowered I am. I know I’m empowered, as a woman, without wearing a see through blouse.
      (No offense to anyone who likes to wear those. See? Let everyone be comfortable in what they want. Isn’t that the point of feminism? )

      • snowflake says:

        right. i can be empowered without taking my clothes off. just my personal preference.

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        But your argument works both ways. Like the choice debate. Nobody is saying your prude, but if other people are more open with their sexuality and bodies, why jump down their backs? Do you get upset with actresses who choose to go nude in film? Art? And as far as I know, twerking has nothing to do with taking off clothes. A lot of stripping and burlesque does — but not twerking.

      • sigh((s)) says:

        But I never said I had a problem with anyone else doing whatever they want. I just have a problem when we all get up in arms about letting women choose to exhibit their sexuality in whatever manner they choose, except in cases of covering up. Then you’re a repressed prude. And if you express a desire to not bare all or twerk or what have you, then you’re conforming to a patriarchal societal norm. My problem is the judging of the other end of the spectrum.

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        But I never said that you’re a prude if you want to cover up. So….

      • sigh((s)) says:

        I don’t mean, you, personally (obviously). I just think a lot of women hear that.

      • Kitten says:

        @ Sighs–Because some feminists do say that.
        Much like *some* feminists rely on slut-shaming to make every woman who embraces her sexuality feel like trash, *some* feminists fall back on the predictable characterization of women who are more conservative or private about their sexuality as “prudish” or “puritanical”.

        Either way, it’s making a judgment of another woman’s relationship to sex and how they choose express that relationship.

      • otaku fairy says:

        @Sighs: I agree with you 100% there.

    • otaku fairy says:

      “Personally, I think one of the problems with “feminism” these days, is that a whole lot of people are still married — whether subconsciously or consciously — to the patriarchal definition of how woman should express their sexuality, even though they think they aren’t. And quite frankly, I think female feminists are just as guilty of slut shaming other women — both blatantly and “back-door.” ”

      This! It’s hard to admit, but I do think that without even realizing it, a lot of feminists have internalized some of the messages of both purity culture and rape culture, and it shapes how they talk about women and sexuality. From purity culture, they’ve internalized the message that our value lies in how ‘pure’, ladylike, ‘classy’, or modest we are. If you’ve internalized that message, you’ll automatically feel that women- especially young women- who are raunchy, overtly sexual, or immodest are ‘degrading themselves,’ And from rape culture, these feminists have internalized the myth that if a woman shows too much or is ‘slutty’, it naturally makes men treat women badly,’ so they’ll say that overtly sexual women are the ones to blame for women and girls’ problems, are hurting feminism, etc. A lot of feminists subtly or overtly engage in all kinds of slut-shaming, scapegoating, whorephobia, and victim-blaming without even seeing that that’s what they’re doing because that’s what everyone has grown up with.

      • Kiddo says:

        Or conversely, many women don’t want to revert to a system which validates and rewards only the youthful sexual attractiveness and desirability of women, as their only and greatest asset. I haven’t read all of the comments, but I think that there was very minimal ‘slut shaming’ and puritanical impulse in this thread. If we are going to argue, in other aspects, about how sad it is that women don’t get jobs after a certain age, and are seen as less valuable if they have passed their expiration date or never were sexually desirable at release date, and that it’s an offense that women can’t possibly be as good as men in the tech industry, because they are mindless blobs of boobs and ass ( as an example). Then promoting the idea that nakedness and selling sexuality as feminism ALONE is a bit of a contradiction to advancing acceptance of other assets as valid and to be taken seriously as it is with men.

        That is not to say that being sexy, dancing sexy or dressing sexy isn’t feminist. It is to say that this escalating competition of outdoing another pop star does not automatically equate to empowerment. It may, in some cases, have the opposite effect.

      • Kitten says:

        Yeah *some* feminists do that, but most feminists I know don’t do that.

        I think there’s a difference between saying that women shouldn’t dress or act in an overtly sexual and provocative way because it denigrates and diminishes feminism and asking the question “what does this behavior do to further feminism?”

        Simply asking a relevant and honest question about how overtly sexual behavior relates to the feminist message isn’t an automatic indictment of that behavior and I would caution you and others to refrain from jumping to that conclusion.

        Free and open discussions about what feminism means to each of us is how we reach understanding.

        Edit: Yeah and what Kiddo said too

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        @otaku fairy Yes! You said it a lot better than me. But this is exactly how I feel!

      • AlwaysConfused says:

        @kiddo – why do you keep bringing up nakedness? Twerking has nothing to do with being naked.

        Also, you keep bringing up “ALONE” – but the entertainers who do it aren’t just getting up on stage and twerking for two hours, no music, no nothing – it’s a PART of their performances. They’re also singing, dancing in other ways, putting on musical extravaganzas. Who do I think is more talented? Miley or Dita? Miley by a mile! (And I am middle aged.) Also, when it comes to Miley – she is young and still figuring out her sexuality. Like most child performers, that happens in front of the world. A LOT of teenagers/twenty-somethings go through that. We seem to say “OK, no biggie” when its young men, but with young women, we’re all, “OH NO! MAKE IT STOP! TERRIBLE!”

        The slut-shaming in this thread is: twerking is wrong, because it’s too sexual — and the people who do it are degrading themselves. That is slut-shaming.

      • Kiddo says:

        Because in her last interview, that was more of the focus of discussion. The fact that promoting sexuality was the ‘sale’ versus the art. I think she is misusing the ‘twerking’. But if I understood it, I believe she meant that being blatantly sexual, or promoting sexual desirability, isn’t the ONLY one thing that empowers you as a feminist. Thus the twerking is not the end all be all to being a feminist. I’ve said this 50 different ways now, so this will be the last.

        Frankly, being sexually desirable HAS ALWAYS been powerful for women. It’s not a new invention that was just discovered. in fact, it was one of the few aspects where women have had power. THAT ALONE does not make one a feminist; by using your sexual wiles to allure. Depending on that element ALONE does not a feminist make, get what I’m saying?

        It doesn’t make someone awful, it doesn’t make them anti feminist, but it ALONE isn’t automatically the key or holy grail to empowerment. If it was, then there would have been no reason to have a woman’s movement in the first place.

      • Kitten says:

        Again, AlwaysConfused, Kiddo didn’t even mention the word “twerk” anywhere in her comment.

      • sigh((s)) says:

        I’m with kiddo on this. And I, personally, am in no way pure, ladylike or classy. I just don’t identify my sexuality as my main sense of self and have no desire to display that to the world at large. I have absolutely no problems with women expressing themselves in whichever way they see fit. It just makes me crazy when people assume that I subconsciously subscribe to the patriarchal view of society and am oppressing myself.
        Agree with you also, kitt.

      • thank you Kiddo and Kitten for summing up what I’ve been getting steadily more angry about reading some of the comments here. Annie wasn’t slut-shaming so stop trying to put words in the woman’s mouth.

      • otaku fairy says:

        @kiddo and @Kitten: Now your points I don’t have a problem with at all. My comment was about the feminists here who are automatically saying that women are ‘degrading themselves’ and ‘have no self-respect’ or ‘this is why women have so many problems’ just because some female entertainers are being sexual beyond what they feel is appropriate. As well as the people automatically assuming that any and every woman in the entertainment industry who is overtly sexual is a poor young girl being forced to do it by evil old men.

      • Amy says:

        This.

        If you show off your body – you’re only doing it because men like it.

        If you dance in a way that displays the movement and curves of your body – just for a man.

        If you twerk or sing about sex or express any part of your personal identity that goes against the code – well a man is paying you so the old men in the board room are happy.

        So basically there is no female choice or identity, there is nothing we can do because men (who mind you have had ruling strength for thousands upon thousands of years) have a leg up by existing within positions of power and packing board rooms and other executive spots might also be handing out a check.

        So what is the lesson here? I love Annie but she comes from a position of privelage, she’s not exploring her own musical identity through a genre that celebrates sensuality and the flesh and bones reality of the body. We’ve managed to stop calling other women sluts but the hand-wringing starts over when we see those women enjoying their bodies, examining it unconcerned whether a man approves or not, and unwilling to cover it to appease those who don’t have the same relationship to their own bodies and sexuality.

    • Helena says:

      I just don’t understand how using sexuality as a part of artists self-expression in his or her chosen art form is such an issue. It is an ancient concept. Sometimes it works well and sometimes it’s done for shock value. In pop music dancing has become inseparable part of performing and dancing can often be seen racy and flirtatious. This shouldn’t be any kind of feminist issue because both sexes use these tactics. Performance of an artist is just that, showmanship,smoke and mirrors and nothing more. What an artist promotes outside the spotlight shows if she or he indeed is an feminist or supporter of some other great issue.

  14. OhDear says:

    I get and agree to some extent to what she’s saying (am assuming she’s only talking in context of how twerking is supposedly the “in” thing now). Wish she could have addressed the race/cultural appropriation aspect, though (assuming she considered it).

    • judyjudyjudy says:

      why would she? she isn’t talking about race…she is talking about what she sees as inappropriate dancing in front of young audiences i.e. both white and black performers.

      • OhDear says:

        Because twerking is only talked about now because white entertainers are doing it and given twerking’s history, there’s a different context when it’s performed by someone like Miley solely to sell her sexuality and when it’s being performed for other reasons.

        Also, whatever Artemis has said.

    • judyjudyjudy says:

      Ohdear –

      Looks like people trying to change/twist what she was clearly saying to suit whatever agenda they have.

      • allheavens says:

        @Judyjudyjudy

        Because you don’t agree with other perspectives does not make them invalid.

        You can understand Annie’s viewpoint and value it. However, you can still find her viewpoint to be limited and not fully formed; there are other cultures at play that are not inherent to her own.

        White second and third wave feminism is not the only or the final word on how women should display their sexuality or how they chose to use their sexuality.

  15. Steph says:

    Love Annie Lennox. Her voice is hauntingly unique.

  16. feebee says:

    I enjoy hearing from Annie. I remember thinking she was the bomb strutting out on stage in leather pants and a long leather coat then for a song or two discarding the coat for just the red lacy bra underneath. Was it just because it was 1987 that that was all she had to do? It was only for a couple of songs, a glimpse of that side of her. As a 15 year old I thought that was massively powerful. Is that what 15 year olds think of twerking today?

    Side-stepped Israel/Palestine, hated for Better Together campaign. Maybe that’s what they should try in the Middle East? I understand what she’s saying with getting over the hatred of the English but it’s not that simple is it? It’s like anywhere where there’s been years of oppression either overtly and physically and/or more subtly through through systemic means. You can’t just get over it. Telling a Independence seeking Scot to get over it is liking telling a feminist to get over feminism. Yes better together but on equal terms. Poor Wales.

  17. Gwen says:

    Team Annie!

  18. HughJass says:

    Thus Spoke Lennox

  19. Sumodo1 says:

    In the 1960s, “go-go” dancers were hired to do their thing in cages in discotheques. Ground zero in the war for women’s equality, and women in cages were feeling empowered. Yeah, uh-huh. New century, same dumb rationale. BTW, great thread!

  20. Ann says:

    Hmmmm …. it’s a complicated issue. As an oldie, I’m glad to see young women embracing their sexuality. However, it seems to me that most of these extremely sexualized performers (including going back to Madonna, etc. here) are playing and obeying the rules they didn’t make and I’ve never bought the it’s “empowering” to show my t&a line. None of these women are changing the world or really doing anything to advance women.

    • sigh((s)) says:

      +1

    • Elle says:

      My bluestocking view: Someone had the great idea to say showing t&a was was empowering, because it was an easy way to keep the status quo (women and their sexuality being dependent and subservient to the male gaze) while pretending to be enlightened.

  21. Brionne says:

    Perhaps if Dame Annie Understood that in true African Dance shaking the butt and hips are not a sexual act, she would sound less judgy and uninformed. TWERKING and other forms of rhythmic hip buttocks movements are simply dance movements. If people attach sex and puritanical values to it, too bad.

    Who said TWERKING was about sex Annie? Why can’t it just be a fun dance and pride in big flexible butt cheeks?

    Who set Annie Lennox up as the arbiter of appropriate dance?

    • KIddo says:

      I don’t know. I think context should apply. Miley is not elevating dance, before her country/pop, as a means to advance or honor African culture. Is she? Maybe, but doing a very bad job of it in the process, to the point of bastardizing it.

      I’m not sure that Beyonce is either, but I leave that with more reasonable doubt, as to motive.

      Annie wasn’t discussing dance troupes or dancers. I think one must consider cultural references, but also one’s field, and motive, in deciphering the intended message or goal.

      • Suzy from Ontario says:

        I agree with Kiddo in a lot of what she says about how the sexuality-shock value has become the focus rather than the talent of the career you are supposed to be about, ie: singer, and while many of you have given me food for thought regarding cultural dance and expression, I worry about young girls who often get confused about their sexuality and power when they aren’t mentally mature enough to really understand and be sure they are putting out the message they think they are. Sexuality and the expression of such can be a complex issue and can change with age as women come to understand themselves more and determine what they want for themselves and what they enjoy and feel comfortable with (as opposed to doing something or dressing a certain way because they feel they have to do so to be popular or get attention or attract a man or are told to do so to sell records).

        Regarding Dita, she chose burlesque as her profession, her talent, so in that regard *unlike Miley and many others* she is putting her focus on the career path she chose. She also seems mature enough to have carefully chosen that path knowingly because she personally enjoyed the style and art of burlesque which has enjoyed a long history and can be very elaborate.

      • Birdix says:

        On the lines of Suzy, I wonder what people think of Misty Copeland and the Underarmor ad. Misty has gotten where she is through talent and extremely hard work, and has overcome serious barriers through her strength of will and again her talent. She does this ad, which is all about empowerment, wearing a bra and bikini bottom, that for practical reasons no ballet dancer would wear. Is this anti-feminist? Are the beach volleyball players wearing bikinis anti-feminist? Honestly, I wish the underarmor people realized that Misty’s movement is amazing enough without having to put her in that outfit–some part of that depressed me, even though she looks great.

      • Brionne says:

        Birdix, I kinda interpreted Misty Copelands workout gear as her attempt to show onlookers that she doesn’t have the expected ballerina body and yet she challenged herself and the standard to become successful. She is showcasing her muscular, thick, big booty body as a way of encouraging others not to let body type or race or other such superficial considerations stop you from achieving a dream. That said she is still fairly tiny but curvy.

        I feel like Serena Williams, Jlo, Pink, and to a certain extent Christina Hendrix are also good examples of not letting themselves be defined by a body type.

      • Birdix says:

        That was Mr. Birdix’s thought as well. And there is speculation either way… was this her idea to wear this? Or the corporate heads who told her to? Impossible to know. It’s not something she would wear in a ballet class, ever (it would be uncomfortable for her partner to lift her in that) and she’s deep in that world, which is why it seemed to me that it was something put on her from people outside of ballet, which in this case would be the marketers at Underarmor. There’s nothing wrong with it–she looks amazing, I just want her talent to speak for itself, and I was distracted by it. I feel the same way about the beach volleyball players–why do they have to wear those bikinis? And they do–it’s part of the rules. They should be able to wear whatever is comfortable for them that lets them compete at their best. If that’s pants and a shirt, fine, if it’s a bikini, fine. But it should be their choice. All this to say–if it was Misty’s choice, great! Good for her.

    • idontknowyouyoudontknowme says:

      Please forgive my shortcoming on this topic, but in really basic terms… HOW is movement of the hips/buttocks and “pride in big flexible butt cheeks” not attached to sensuality/sex?

      In most cases, it is done with a partner (usually male), and involves direct contact to the recepient’s crotch to “feel the movement”…. I would think usually even if its just for the “fun” of it, most people wouldn’t twerk up on just anyone, but rather someone they were attracted to as a way of flirting.

      People are too focused on twerking tradition going back multiple decades, but I dont think it can be denied that it has innuendo. (Not even taking into consideration because that does have personal judgement/stereotypes included, but most people in the regions this originated from consider the Hips/Butt the most erotic and visually appealing body part on a women).

      Maybe Im being blunt, but I honestly dont see why someone would twerk unless they want to receive positive feedback (either on their ability or body), or to actually make an impression on a guy, flirt/initiate a potential hook-up.

      Other forms of dance, (I see ballet was bought up as an example), in spite of its skin tight clothing is surprisingly asexual, in fact its preferred to have a very small chest, narrow hips/butt/secondary sexual characteristics) in order to avoid it from distracting the audience.
      Not the most feminist dance either, in fact one could argue that females are expected to remain childlike and conform to a very strict idea of beauty deemed acceptable.

      However the fact remains and I’m not sure why people cant accept that its human nature… if you have G cup breasts jiggling, a very large bottom jiggling or any sexual characteristic is emphasized, you will get responses and attention (either positive or negative). if you dont want any reaction, why would you be doing it in the first place, especially if its done publicly not at home?

      • Suzy from Ontario says:

        Plus ballet is about the lines of the body and the gracefulness of movement, ie: making things that take a huge amount of strength and power look easy, airy, light, graceful like a swan or bird taking flight, etc. It IS very asexual in a lot of ways. It really doesn’t give a sexual vibe at all, imo. It’s like art in motion, or a drawing in motion. Lines that the eye follows. The pointe shoes make the legs look longer, as do the short skirts (or no skirts), and so on.

        Personally, while I understand that there are cultural differences that I may not understand being a middle aged white female, I am not a huge fan of blatant sexuality in music, ie: crotch grabbing (by anyone) or dance that simulates sex be it Madonna or Beyonce. I’m not a prude and I don’t mind sensuality in video and style or dress, but I personally find more subtle sexuality attractive. Blatant in your face sexuality makes me uncomfortable whatever race does it. But then again, I was sexually molested as a child so my discomfort could be tangled up with that, I don’t know. I’m no expert of course. That’s just my own personal feelings. Sometimes I think it takes away the actual talent of the person as a singer and that they aren’t taken as seriously as a musician and songwriter. But again, I’m not expert and my opinion is tied up with a lot of emotional issues that are skewed from my own history, so …

      • Birdix says:

        Ballet dancer Robert Helpmann: “The trouble with nude dancing is that not everything stops when the music does.” Here’s an interesting article on nudity in concert (ballet and modern) dance: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/arts/dance/nakedness-in-dance-taken-to-extremes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

      • snowflake says:

        yes, this is the point i was trying to make but apparently failed at.

    • snowflake says:

      ok, I guess I’ll just twerk at work then. When someone tells me to stop, I’ll say, why? I’m celebrating my culture.

      • Anna says:

        @snowflake that sounds ridiculously immature. no one ever said black women should twerk everywhere because it “celebrates their culture”. They’re talking about if black women (or west indian women) want to twerk at parties, parades or whatever.

    • Elle says:

      Maybe the cultural and historical context was non-sexual, but since being appropriated by pop artists, I’d say it’s absolutely been sexualized.

  22. AlmondJoy says:

    Annie Lennox is amazing, for sure. She is correct in some ways. Even so, there are MANY other factors and variables involved, ones that she did not mention and may not even be in a position to notice or care about, but that need to be addressed.

    Artemis and Brionne, you brought those points out. Thank you. I hope your words are well-taken and mulled over, instead of attacked and shot down.

    • Artemis says:

      She’s white so she doesn’t have to explain anything. People like Lennox are automatically seen as well-versed on the topic purely because she’s not like those awful sexualised performers and she benefits from it greatly seeing as she implies she loves the topic yet doesn’t dig deeper or offer a wider discussion on it. Meanwhile Beyonce can talk about her company, her achievements, her work ethic, her balance to work-personal life and people just don’t care and dismiss it because she shakes her booty and wears provocative clothing. Lennox provides some soundbites and she’s queen of all things feminism. Like, what?

      It’s really hopeless tbh. I wish the good sis Janet Jackson would come in and shade all of these white feminists.

      • Jaded says:

        Artemis, why are you throwing feminism under the racial profiling bus? It’s neither white nor black. You clearly have a bee in your bonnet about white people, it comes through loud and clear with your comment about Janet Jackson shading “all of these white feminists” like they’re a stupid little clique that hasn’t done any good for the women of the world. Rosa Parks was a feminist. There are countless women around the world of dozens of ethnic groups who are proud feminists, so please don’t allow a bias against white people to taint your opinion.

      • Artemis says:

        Did I lie? You can put as much words in my mouth if you want but the words that I typed on this thread: did I lie?

        I don’t care if I make white people uncomfortable, they are far too comfortable in their white privilege and it shows in threads like this. Tired of one white woman speaking out about matters she’s not even knowledgeable about and she’s praised into the high heavens and black women are always ridiculed when talking about the same matter, that should make people, black or white, angry! It’s a human issue but you can’t deny that POC always bear the brunt of the criticism. But do shift the focus on my perceived stance on white people: do less please.

      • sigh((s)) says:

        If you shut down the people in a conversation based on their skin color then you are closing the door for education.

      • Brionne says:

        Jaded, unfortunately there has frequently been a chasm between Black Feminist thought and Mainstream Feminist thought. There’s an offshoot of feminism called Womanism which is best represented by writers like Alice Walker, bell hooks, Audre Lord, Patricia Hill Collins who frequently discussed gender and patriarchy through the context of classism and racism.

        Even Gloria Steinem has admitted that First Wave and Second wave feminism avoided the specific considerations of women of color. When mainstream feminism was fighting against traditional women’s roles ie barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen black women had already been “working outside the home” for a couple centuries but still had to fight against racism and the automatic characterization of black women as morally loose sexual animals etc or as the mammy type.

        I said all that to say no one is imposing a racial chasm onto feminism in this discussion: there already was one and it has long been acknowledged by both Black and White, and increasingly Latina feminist thinkers.

      • Artemis says:

        @Brionne;

        I expect people who discuss feminism to have a notion of all types of feminism. Not on an academic level but just out of interest and concern. When they talk like race makes no difference in feminism, I know that I don’t really have to bother. Womanism is well-known in my opinion, there is no excuse to stay ignorant and Jaded tried the age old deflection tactic so she can justify her ignorance. But I am the one that’s biased of course. Hmm.

        Btw, I love bell hooks but lately, she hasn’t been on point (imo) as she was in the past. Her takedown on Madonna’s cultural appropriation is still the best to this day though. And that’s what I’m missing in Lennox’s quotes and it’s not smart on her part because I know she has the intelligence to really dig into this topic!

      • Brionne says:

        @Artemis, I agree about bell hooks. There was a time when I breathed ate and slept bell hooks. I think there is a new generation of Black Feminists writers and commenters out there and bell hooks, Alice Walker etc still have a 90’s era perspective.

        I’ve found that many people are unaware of the schism between mainstream and other types of feminism just as many are unaware of history outside the official narrative. It definitely makes for an interesting conversation.

  23. mernymerlyn says:

    I’m honestly curious how feminism has become an everyday topic.
    It seems that every actress, singer, male or female in the public light has been asked this question and their answers have made headlines.
    I’ve seen documentaries about the early feminism movement with Gloria Steinam and they have been very moving. Even Mary Poppins, the mother fighting for women’s right to vote
    “Our daughter’s daughter’s will adore us”.
    I loved the poem in the song Flawless by Beyonce’ and it did make me think about what that word meant to me. Is it that song? Just hey, here’s the definition of feminism just gonna leave that here for you to digest.
    Or is there something else happening that everyone is being asked their opinion on this topic?
    I’m truly asking because this has me very curious.

    • Brionne says:

      FYI the opening segment of Beyonce’s song Flawless is actually not a poem. It is a snippet of a speech given on Feminism by award winning Nigerian Writer Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie. I believe the speech is from a TED talk although I can’t be sure since Ted Talks are usually technology related.

      Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie wrote a widely acclaimed book called Half of a Yellow Sun which is said to cover in a fictionalized way the internal conflict for modern educated African (from the continent) women face regarding traditional roles, modern concepts of success, romance, family etc. I’ve heard her being interviewed on NPR and other radio shows. She is a joy for the thinking woman to listen to. In the snippet of her TED talk featured in Flawless, she does seem to mention that girls aren’t expected to express, enjoy, and own their sexuality as boys do. Which is somewhat reflected in the discussion here over twerking as a display of sexuality vs a dance movement involving hips and butt.

      I encourage anyone interested to search for Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie’ s speech on Feminism and listen to it separately from Beyonce’s Flawless although I’m not knocking Beyonce’s interpretation which was inspired by Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie.

  24. Lau says:

    Yes. YES! She got it right. I always try to discuss the difference between owning and selling one’s sexuality with others and I never quite manage to express myself adequately without sounding like I am actually trying to shade someone when really – I’m not.

  25. Helena says:

    How exactly should performers dance that it would be appropriate and “feminist”. I don’t give a damn about white popstars but Beyonce certainly is following a long line of pop and R&B entertainers from James Brown to Michael Jackson. There is some hip shaking and thrusting happening for sure and very few are complaining.

    • Kiddo says:

      I’m off to do work after this last comment. I think the point is that there is an over-sexualizaion for attention, eclipsing the very showcased art itself (singing), calling the lack of clothing in concert with possibly suggestive movement the empowerment versus the creation of the art itself, especially where very young impressionable female audiences are concerned. James brown and Michael Jackson didn’t perform in thongs and tell young boys that that alone meant empowerment to men.

      Both were highly skilled in both song and dance and were not using nakedness as some symbol of a greater mission or cause.

      • snowflake says:

        exactly!

      • Helena says:

        Hi Kiddo, I understand what you mean but I have to disagree. Beyonce is a very talented dancer and I think she uses dance exactly the same way as MJ did, to accentuate the beat and to bring music visually alive. And MJ sure as hell knew how sexual his dancing was and how it affected his audiences. I personally think that dancing is very liberating and has nothing to do with sexuality per se but you can express many feelings,among them, sensuality,sexuality and aggression through dance. It’s a great form of self-expression.

      • Kiddo says:

        Helena, I don’t think it has to do with dancing alone. Please read my comments above. The point is the requirement of less clothes, coupled with the notion that the nakedness or exhibitionism and suggestiveness alone are what drive empowerment to women, to the extreme point of eclipsing the showcased art form of singing. Having your clothes off doesn’t make you a feminist. Being sexy doesn’t make you anti-feminist. But the requirement of the ever increasing level of exhibitionism, pushing the bar higher, does not in and of itself empower women. It leads them back to the nexus of being seen as objects, in other words. It makes the point to a younger audience that maybe they won’t succeed in talent alone, without becoming a sex act of sorts, because the only empowerment they have is becoming more and more naked topping the last act.

        As an aside, if you want to be in the sex worker industry, like an exotic dancer and whatnot, have at it.
        That’s your thing do it (not alluding that that’ what Beyonce is doing), but these are mainstream acts for a largely young audience, who then come to envision the exploitation of their bodies as the norm, a requirement and what is empowering versus the real talent of singing, or dancing. KWIM?

      • Kitten says:

        I think there are two arguments being made about dancing that are overlapping here:

        1) Dance is a beautiful and often cultural expression and shouldn’t be automatically deemed be “vulgar” nor is it done solely for the male gaze.

        2) Dancing in and of itself is not automatically an expression of feminism, although it can be.

        I think it’s possible to agree with all of the aforementioned points as they’re not inherently contradictory.

        All Annie was saying was that getting onstage and dancing provocatively in a bikini does not mean you’re a feminist, it also doesn’t mean that you’re NOT a feminist. When I watched Miley’s MTV performance my first thought wasn’t “Wow, what feminist! Score one for feminism” and it just seems a bit disingenuous for Miley to use feminism to advocate for more sexy grinding, licking, and teddy bear-humping.

        If we recall Lennox’s earlier comments about “feminism lite”, this is pretty consistent with her feelings that feminism has been dumbed down in a lot of ways.
        I think a true understanding of feminism and what it means, and some intention behind what you’re trying to accomplish by embracing your sexuality through a stage performance matters. The feminist image you present to the public matters. Annie’s point is simply that feminism is MORE than just owning one’s sexuality.

        Personally, I think Beyoncé does a far better job of that than Miley, but ultimately if they identify themselves as feminists, they have my support. To be fair, both can rely on sexiness at times, but Miley’s androgyny and Beyoncé’s business acumen shows a different side, and at least adds a bit of complexity to the image that both project.

        In the end, I don’t think either does anything terrible to hurt feminism, but I’m not convinced that what they’re doing is really advancing feminism in any groundbreaking way either.

        @kiddo-what happened to doing work? 😉

      • Kiddo says:

        @Kitten, thanks I think you’ve kind of pulled together some of what I was tying to articulate with great struggle.

      • Kitten says:

        I’m pretty sure I could have cut three paragraphs out of there (my usual issues with brevity) but I tried, Kiddo.

        Anyway, I really do agree with you and Lennox on this one.

      • Jaded says:

        @Kiddo, very well stated. There has to be a distinction between what true feminism stands for, and there is a sexual component to feminism which means women aren’t forced into arranged marriages, given clitorectomies so they don’t enjoy sex, are allowed to have multiple sexual partners, remain single, whatever. The flip side is the ridiculous amount of cheap sexual shock and awe tactics that’s taking over young women in the music industry. It’s the main part of the show, not their exemplary singing voices or writing/dancing skills. And for Artemis and a few others who think I’m shading Beyoncé, I am not. I am choosing to be colour blind about this, it is not a racial issue.

      • I Choose Me says:

        Kiddo and OKITT I think you’ve got to the crux of what Lennox was trying to say.

      • Helena says:

        I don’t think nakedness or lack of it is an issue here. The issue for many here,not necessarily for you, seems to be kind of performance that has been part of R&B type of music for a long time. Beyonce is part of that tradition because all her idols come from that background. Miley C can’t dance and therefore she’s just exploiting hip hop culture for shock value. I like Annie Lennox a lot but I honestly don’t understand what feminism has to do with a style of performance. Beyonce for sure has never said that because of her style of dancing she is a feminist. But she has said that she is a feminist because she believes in equality of sexes. All this talk about feminism and sexuality is so strange for me. I come from Scandinavia and I think feminism for me has become about other issues for a long time ago.

      • Kiddo says:

        Helena, I don’t have perfect recall, but some of us were addressing the Lennox opinion, based on a continuum, because she has spoken in the past about this in reference to female singers ‘selling’ their bodies more than their craft. I think the comment about twerking may have been a careless toss away one, much like the comment on the Scots and she could have used more care, but I got the impression that she had tired of the questions on some level. I also think she was confusing the issue of twerking with Miley and Beyonce in her head.

  26. snowflake says:

    ok twerk all you want. celebrate your culture, but when it’s obviously done to appeal to male audiences in concerts, spare me the b.s., you’re not trying to celebrate your culture. you’re trying to appeal to your male fanbase. MILEY AND BEYONCE! why cant these performers use their singing talent solely? like adele.

    • mernymerlyn says:

      Well to be fair Miley can’t dance for crap but Beyonce’ can dance her ass off. She’s been doing the “uh uh oh uh oh uh oh” dance forever which is a slight booty bounce compared to today’s twerking. Yeah she shakes it a lot more than what she did before but at least there’s choreography behind it as opposed to just LOOK AT IT!
      Beyonce’ can sing in a chair and sing a ballad because I’ve seen it and enjoyed it.
      I think they have to use everything in their arsenal to get attention. That is why Mariah never danced, because she couldn’t. She could barely take three steps to the beat of a song.
      Adele is just not that type of artist. It’s totally different categories of music.

    • otaku fairy says:

      “why cant these performers use their singing talent solely? like Adele”.

      Why should all entertainers have to only use one thing solely? Shouldn’t they each have a choice of whether they want to be seen for vocal talent, for shock value and being whatever they feel is rebellious, or a combination of both? I also don’t think all female singers should have to be the same- and they’re not all the same, if you look at the women in the music industry. Not everybody is Miley or Beyonce, not everybody is Taylor or Demi, not everyone is Ariana or Lorde, not everyone is Adele or Janelle Monae, and I like that. I don’t want them all to be forced in one narrow little box of acceptability or propriety when it comes to image.

  27. Jaded says:

    One last comment then I’ll shut up. I’m from Toronto, Canada, where Malala Yousefa is going to be speaking at a conference on education today, then meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper. As I write, Ottawa, our capital city, is under lockdown. A group of terrorists attacked our Parliament buildings (Canada’s White House) this morning, killing a guard at the War Memorial monument, and running amok inside the actual Parliament buildings where all three political parties and their leaders were in caucus. All of our military bases across Canada are locked down.

    It’s ironic that Malala, who has championed education for women like a true feminist, and almost died as a result of a Taliban attack because women can’t be educated in their world, is here on one of Canada’s worst days. She is a true feminist, someone who believes that women can bring so much to the world through education, not through bumping and grinding barely dressed.

    • Brionne says:

      So sorry to hear that. I hope this doesn’t discourage the conference from being held and Malala from speaking.

    • Gonna correct you Jaded…Parliament is like our Capital Hill. 24 Sussex is our White House. But I’m watching this all from the Hammer just as amazed as you.

  28. CJ Berk says:

    The thing is -this is NOT a color issue. It’s a respect yourself issue. How far down. low-end can you go before you embarrass yourself and everyone else? I don’t know anyone who thinks Miley Cyrus is appealing-I don’t know anyone who thinks Beyonce’s act is appealing. Sweating, grunting, gyrating, it means nothing other than what the artist thinks she should do. I wonder why….all these women —-so much trash—so little class.

    • Brionne says:

      No disrespect but your response instantly struck me as being from a very restricted puritan type view of sex, the body, and movement of hips, butt, pelvis as dirty and sinful.

      Im curious about your views on Mardi Gras where women flash their boobs for beads? Caribbean celebrations of Carnivale where women and men wear elaborate yet skimpy costumes and sometimes just body paint? Elvis Presley and his evil hip gyrations? Michael Jackson’s crotch grabbing? Katie Perry’s boob centric outfits? Madonna’s obsession with sex and all things dominatrix? Lady Gaga’s many nearly nude incarnations? Nude Grecco-Roman statues? Reubenesque paintings? The Sistine chapel nudity? References to cherry pie, sugar, and sweet sixteen in rock music? Sirmixalot reclining on a huge booty in his ode to big butts Baby Got Back?

      • Sooloo says:

        Who says it has to be “dirty and sinful”? Why can’t it be simply that it’s viewed as unappealing to look at, and/or simply not enough when it comes to a performance (as in, wow us with vocal talent, stage presence, tight choreography, and musicianship in addition to/instead of just grinding onstage, which is utterly simplistic and, again, NOT ENOUGH)? Can we not say we don’t find something appealing without being judged that WE are being judgy about what we think is appropriate behavior for a woman? Again, with reference to Mardi Gras or Carnivale – it’s all well and good, but why do we need to be assaulted with this imagery 24/7 and in every venue, music video, live performance, or photo shoot? And as a whole, even if this “very restricted puritan type view” is indeed how CJ feels, who are you to judge him/her? Isn’t that just as bad as CJ’s objection to the idea of seeing T&A everywhere? Why the hypocrisy? What if he/she does feel Elvis/Michael Jackson/Madonna is inappropriate – then what? It’s his/her right, and your judging that is just as unwelcome.

      • Kiddo says:

        @Brionne, Your question is certainly thought provoking, but too dense to really address with everything you listed lumped together. Tradition, Art, gimmickry, marketing, transcendence, creativity and expression, communication, are, of course, subjective by nature, and may appear differently within a variety of contexts.

        Some things are genuine expressions of experiences or feelings, and elicit the same in kind. Some things manipulate that which evokes experiences or feelings, and may feel like they are legit without analyzing motivation. Some things are obvious hacks.

        Some paintings and performances are art and some are mimicry and cheap psychological button pushers. Some art continues in a vein of homage to a subject or genre. Is marketing an art? Sometimes. Does it always portray or attempt to communicate truth? Not always. Although it may be ingenious in its execution and artfully’ done.

        And then to further complicate things, there is art that takes on political and societal messages. Does one embrace all regardless of the intended message, motive or end result? *Think of highly skilled and creative propaganda pieces.

        Marketing can be art and art can be marketed, Andy Warhol is an example in the visual arts. People have varying levels of sensitivity to what makes what what. But I think when you reach a critical mass of sameness and competition in topping that sameness, it begins to take on the characteristics of a con and gimmickry and it moves more toward advertising versus genuineness of expression.

      • CJ Berk says:

        Hi Brionne:
        You’ve got to lighten up here. It’s not that complicated. No one said anything about dirty or sinful. It’s just tasteless and not appealing. No class. It’s that simple.
        Maybe a sales strategy-the record business is very structured. But really–Mardi Gras-Carnivale…totally unrelated. And just fyi, I work for a record company…..we all know what’s going on and it ALL relates to how much money an artist can bring in.

      • CJ Berk says:

        Sooloo:
        Well said. I didn’t have the patience –you are spot on. Thanks.

    • otaku fairy says:

      It’s not a respect for yourself issue at all. You can be as virginal and modest as they come and lack self-respect; you can where skimpy clothes and be very sexual and have plenty of self-respect, or anything else in between.

      @sooloo: The problem is not judging whether or not you think an entertainer’s look or act is appealing. The problem is when you judge that there is something wrong with the person because you find their sexuality inappropriate. Yeah, I know it’s popular for to cry, ‘But you’re judging the judger’ whenever one is being called out for trashing people based on sexuality. If someone calls out homophobia, one can easily cry “You’re a hypocrite for judging someone for being homophobic. People have the right to their opinion” just as easily as one can cry out “You’re a hypocrite for judging people who police female sexual immodesty. People have a right to their opinion” but in both cases it’s just derailment and a sign that the person is missing the point, at best,

  29. Guest says:

    If one look at the origins of “twerking” ; it started in Senegal; where it is apparently different than the dance shown in street culture in the west.
    I saw a video where appropriately women dressed in white dance beautifully to Senegalese music while using chairs for visitors in that country. The audience is mixed and seated in a darkened area as they perform. It is not for the male gaze nor does it sell products.
    The next place that twerking was used as a dance is Jamaica where it is an intimate sexy dance between a woman and her man. Yet again it is not for the male gaze nor to sell products.
    Both of these country/island have a black majority hence no stigma and finger pointing.
    I saw the chairs used in anaconda video as an acknowledgement.

  30. angela says:

    The Scots need to grow up? My, how awfully colonial of her.

  31. Luffy says:

    Annie Lennox is a sh*t feminist. Her version of feminism only includes women who think like her and who conform to her idea of what should or shouldn’t be empowering to other women. How does she think she has any say over what is and isn’t empowering to someone else? Leave I two white feminists to try to enforce the same rules and regulations already imposed on women by the patriarchy in the form of feminism. If your version of feminism doesn’t involve the idea of an individual being able to decide what is or isn’t empowering to them, then you’re version of feminism is sh*t and so are you.

    • eowyn says:

      Applause. There is so much white privilege in these kinds of threads. It is astounding. And when some push against it, others jump on them to shut them up without listening. Thereis so much change to be done with *feminism* before i will include myself in that movment.
      I prefer to be a proud womanist.

      • Artemis says:

        Funny how POC were ignored for decades and when we have our own movements (we always land on our feet don’t we?), white feminist expect us to forget all the shit they put us through. How they excluded us and made us feel less than a woman, less than a human being. And it’s not that they have changed that much (although some do very good work and are very inclusive I must say!), a lot/too many of issues are still discussed through their own white privileged experiences yet they expect us to join them in THEIR fight while ignoring OUR plights. Smh.

      • Pepsi Presents...Coke says:

        Fellow womanist. I’m an adult, I don’t need the constant scolding.

      • Amy says:

        Preach and preach.

        Artemis you’ve been a godsend in this thread through some really teeth-gritting comments.

        All I can say is every woman comes to her own idea of how to function in the world and what she learns from other women. I applaud Beyonce for embracing feminism, but I think womanism works better for me.

        My mother taught me at a young age not to plead to join anything that doesn’t appreciate or want me.

      • Danskins says:

        +1 – fellow womanist. Western feminism has a long way to go in welcoming POC with open arms.

    • Duckie says:

      Fellow womanist here.

  32. Pepsi Presents...Coke says:

    I wonder if any of the people who are adamant that it is not about colour are people of colour?

    • bonsai mountain says:

      It’s pretty amazing how all this talk of bodies and what’s empowering ignores that BLACK women’s bodies have always been considered unsexy, unladylike, akin to animals, and that black women themselves are perceived as lewd and and promiscuous. It’s really hard for people to grasp that yes, Beyonce, Rihanna and Nicki can empower black women to feel good about their bodies by simply reveling in black female nudity, and by extension, reveling in what it means to be sexual beings, because this has traditionally been suppressed as part of the general dehumanization of black women. White women have the privilege of being perceived as delicate and feminine, so it’s not an issue that would arise for someone like Annie Lennox.

      • Amy says:

        I was just thinking about how interesting it is that people are praising ballet and condemning twerking.

        Ballet which has typically shut out people of color. Ballet which has restricted feminine bodies, favoring those with less curves and more slender figures.

        Essentially ballet is fine because the ‘classic lines’ may show movement but don’t worry! It’s not sexual. The girls very young, very slender.

        Meanwhile other dances reflect curvy bodies. Hips and movement of legs. Full body swinging and no fear of breasts moving or bottoms shaking.

        Just an interesting thought.

      • Pepsi Presents...Coke says:

        I’m not a Beyonce fan by any stretch and certainly own more of Annie Lennox’s music but I can’t say I’m in love with this pervading sentiment that if Annie makes her criticisms, which are her right, it doesn’t matter if there might be some honest to goodness blind spots in her perspective, but should someone call attention to the possibility of those blind spots, it’s because that person is myopic and irrational and ANGRY and automatically thinks that Annie is a ‘pressed heaux’ who should be bowing down. For me, what is interesting in all of this CERTAINLY isn’t Beyonce because she holds no personal appeal for me, but that so many people are absolutely chomping at the bit to tell black women that they have no right to speak or disagree because it’s counterproductive. Counterproductive to what? This goes SO far beyond Beyonce and Annie that it’s not even about them anymore. It’s turned into an illustration of the issues that Black women have and have always had with mainstream feminism.

        Black women have no right to the discussion about Black women’s bodies and no right to speak over other people’s pronouncements about our flesh, our pasts and presents and how it operates. That’s what so much of this is, the flesh is only allowed to enter into the conversation once it has promised it will be compliant. There’s no dialogue, it’s deflection, denial, disdain, dictations and demands. If anyone misbehaves, says the wrong thing or has the wrong perspective, watch the skies because the storm is coming and don’t you dare grab an umbrella, you deserve the deluge because you’ve acted out. Apparently the only people who don’t understand what it is to be a Black woman is Black women because whenever one starts to speak, to round out the conversation about them someone is always magmaniously ‘educating’ her and using logic and ‘expertise’ to run a hysterical woman out of town for challenging the dynamic or broadening the conversation. Oh, but we’re all equal, I mean, if people keep shouting at us to acknowledge it, it must be true.

        Don’t believe me? Look at this thread, which is stuffed with, ‘Shut up, what do you know?’ statements in response to what I guess is perceived as uppity, mad women attacking the genteel, thoughtful and legitimate feminists.

        Look, to be honest, I can’t stand Beyonce, but this is frustrating because it happens every single time a Black woman challenges what feminism is ‘supposed’ to mean for her and what her concerns should be within that space. That is, if someone allows us to lay claim to the existence of those concerns, until then, it’s ‘pictures, or it didn’t happen’. And we’re supposed to be clamouring for approval and just accepting other people terms so we can be drawn into the ‘loving’ embrace? Why? Why should I have to defer? Why should I bow and scrape just for the dubious reward or condescension and dismissal if we’re not working to their ends while ours are ignored? What’s the pull factor, there?

      • Trashaddict says:

        My fifth grade teacher was black. She was beautiful. She was constantly challenging our minds. She was athletic. She took no sh-t from any of the kids. I saw her take off in high heels, jump over a brick wall to run down on the field and break up a fight at recess. She was worth 12 pop singers, white or black.

      • Duckie says:

        Exactly! This point is fundamental in this discussion!

  33. Lola says:

    Annie is too nice. There’s nothing awesome about what Beyonce does, there’s no feminism in stripping in front of a Feminism sign, feminism is not a spectrum. What Beyonce does is a business in which she sells herself in a sexual way, and she does it expecting young girls to try to imitate it and think they’re great for it.

  34. sarah says:

    Anne needs to stick to criticizing her own sisters rather than attacking POC. Not everyone needs to be like her or follow outlook. It does not make those women any less of a feminist. White women are so full of privilege they forget they cannot instruct a WOC how to act, dance, or become a “proper lady.”

    • Amy says:

      This.

      Annie’s comments come down to: “Do as I say. Live as I see fit. Follow my own example.”

      Speaking from a place of privelage and cultural ignorance, refusing to see other women for all their multi-faceted roles . The mere fact she could reduce Beyonce to twerking when Beyonce herself is mimicking so many dancers and performers famous within the black community. Also what is wrong with those dances? Sexual or otherwise?? Why are so many still so terrified of other women’s bodies doing what theirs do not and wish to condemn them.

  35. snowflake says:

    @ Artemis

    People can criticize Beyonce without being racist. But I get the feeling that if anyone says anything against Beyonce, you take it as racism. I’m sorry I have white privilege. i didn’t ask for it, I didn’t say I deserve to be treated better because I’m white. I thought I was just living life and maybe sometimes I got what I wanted because I was pretty. I didn’t realize until I married a mixed race man that some of the advantages are because I’m white. when i see people looking at him like they’re sizing him up or when we’re in a restaurant and people stare, then I get it. Not everyone was raised around minorities and knows they have “white privilege. ” there was one African-American family in the town i lived in growing up. When someone told my husband (at work) that it was an all white bathroom, I was shocked. When he replied, that’s ok, I got some in me, he was told it a pure white bathroom. Now that’s racism! not someone saying beyonce and miley shouldn’t be crawling and dancing around twerking. get a grip.

    • bonsai mountain says:

      Your comments can still be racist if you’re not taking into consideration how women of colour are affected by sexism AND racism. Artemis has shown how it’s problematic for white women to judge black women based on white standards. Culture, socialization and racism are at play here. Saying colour doesn’t matter fails to acknowledge that the default standard is usually white. All women are not the same. Beyonce and Miley are not the same.

    • Amy says:

      Racism is a multi-faceted issue and goes far beyond the most blatant and offensive examples, sadly with your words and your own examples it is clear you still have much to learn.

    • sigh((s)) says:

      Geez. She’s willing to admit her white privilege and admit that she’s still learning about the whole thing, that she deals with it in her everyday relationships and still she’s dismissed from the conversation forthwith.
      This is why people give up on the conversation. Because nothing they say will ever be right. Nobody learns anything in that situation. If you wish to educate people you have to be willing to listen and respond to other viewpoints, even when (and especially when) you don’t agree with them. Dismissing people from the conversation kills the dialogue, and hence the learning.

  36. Maria says:

    Still talented and a class act – that’s Annie Lennox.

  37. otaku fairy says:

    I don’t have a problem with her saying that twerking doesn’t automatically equal feminist; I also don’t see anyone trying to argue that twerking DOES automatically make one a feminist.

    My only problem with her comment is that she’s arguing that artists like Miley and Beyonce shouldn’t be able to dress and dance however they want and be openly sexual just because some of their fans are kids. Are we really going to make whether or not we’re ok with children doing something the standard for what grown women do with their bodies and personal lives? I’m not ok with 8-year-olds drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, having sex, or driving, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to turn around and tell people who are of legal age- public figures or not- that they shouldn’t be doing those things, nor am I going to ask for those aspects of human life to be censored out of the mainstream media just because I don’t want little kids to imitate it.

    • Amy says:

      The other point being that woman are always responsible for setting up a good example or being mother surrogate, but men are never held to this standard.

      If they are dumb. They are dumb for themselves. If they screw up. They have failed themselves.

      For women they have responsibility to every single other girl on the planet regardless with whether they want or have expressed any desire for that role.

  38. Amy says:

    I love Annie, her voice is amazing and I adore so many of her songs, but nothing she’s said on this topic has resonated with me.

    Which is an interesting perspective…though she means well I don’t feel like she’s speaking from a topic she really knows or understands but merely one she’s observed from a distance and made a judgement on.

    Her femininity and feminism don’t speak to my own experiences. I don’t begrudge her for her feelings, but I don’t worship her either for the megaphone she speaks from and what light she casts women in that don’t fit in with her own experiences.

    Good for her though. Like I said she’s a lovely intelligent woman with an amazing voice.

  39. Danskins says:

    Great discussion posts especially from Artemis, Brionne, Pepsi Presents Coke and the like.

    But still very disheartening to read from certain above priveledged posters who clearly still have a lot learn about the complexities of Western feminism as it relates to historical racism and the traditional exclusion of POC from its discourse.