HarleyTechTalk

A new take on valve train noise
Worth a read
http://www.hdforums.com/forum/new-rushmore-models/1058869-the-tapping-the-quest-is-over.html

Very interesting indeed.

I know the valve train of my 2013 Road King is much noisier than my previous 2008 Electra Glide. Especially in the 2400 to 2700 rpm range much like described in this article. Its not noisy enough that I worry about it but it is mildly annoying especially when I know how much quieter my previous twin cam engine was in comparison.

I would be interested to see if other people are able to quiet their valve train down using the same procedure. I wonder if it would be possible to lock down just one end of the shaft to prevent it from rattling but still allow for normal expansion due to heat?

Quote from: remmag on July 12, 2015, 07:47:32 AM
A new take on valve train noise
Worth a read
http://www.hdforums.com/forum/new-rushmore-models/1058869-the-tapping-the-quest-is-over.html

Nice find by "Bikerscum" I have come across that before. My fix was a threaded stake thru the rocker support plate on each end of the plate to take out the play, worked out good. I Just have to remember the screws are there upon next disassembly.

 did you take a picture of your fix Gordon?
My cam side mounting bolts that hold my rocker supports down have the same exact marks as Bikerscum's did.
I like your idea of drilling thru the support and tapping the rocker shaft and installing a bolt to secure it from rocking back and forth. I have some Loctite 648 that is high strength and high heat...but the drilling and tapping of the shafts and supports looks like a better option to me.
I might have to do this to my shafts and supports this coming winter.

Ray

No cents
What about drilling and tapping the support and installing a set screw that would secure against the shaft?

This has been a known (but not well published issue for some time. I first heard about this from BVHOG
All you need to do is thread the support and use a set screw, opposite side as the bolt locks. a small flat on the shaft will help seat it. I will be doing mine if that is an issue when I tear it apart. Probably use a 1/4" X 28 set screw

I noticed the same thing on mine,   thought that might
be my noise but never did anything about it    still have
the noise 

I did put a little of dab of blue loctite when I installed the inserts to.

  Thanks for the pictures Gordon! 
...that will be on my list of things to do this winter.

Ray

Quote from: gordonr on July 12, 2015, 10:24:18 AM
I did put a little of dab of blue loctite when I installed the inserts to.

Gordonr, That's brilliant. I have saved your photos in my to-do list for my upcoming head work. Thanks a million.

: Mike

Gordon r
If I am looking correct at the pics you put an insert on each end of the shaft,am I correct
Also I would assume you were chasing rocker noose

What kind of noise reduction did you get

If it worked I would imagine you ###t your pants with all the flustration chasing noises in these things

Great work

Quote from: remmag on July 12, 2015, 12:08:27 PM
Gordon r
If I am looking correct at the pics you put an insert on each end of the shaft,am I correct
Also I would assume you were chasing rocker noose

What kind of noise reduction did you get

If it worked I would imagine you ###t your pants with all the flustration chasing noises in these things

Great work

I was in pursuit of the quietest valve train and had some galling up there to. I'm also known for a little excessive spring pressure now and again. I'm surprised Ray didn't say anything about the hardend spacer that was still stuck on the rocker support.

 
I didn't want to say anything...I seen it! 

Ray

 Ok,I give
What's with the spacer?

 It's used to help correct the geometry of the rocker arm tip to the valve stem.
The goal of shimming under the rocker arm support is to get the rocker arm tip to ride on top of the valve stem as close to being centered as possible...leaving the smallest foot print across the stem.

Ray

Cool idea
I take it you have tried several things to quiet valve train noise

It drives me nuts

How well did the set screws on the shaft improve valve train noise?

While we are talking about the noise,
why does the valve train make noise?
Is it because of the shaft moving around?

OK,

We just found the same thing on our front and rear rocker arm supports, is the
loctite 609 good enough fix??  I don't think the 609 is going to hold up with the
head temps we get with a non water cooled head.

Drill out the support for a fitted bushing on the bolts shoulder??

What would in involve to tear it back down if you used the loctite 648??


What about a grade 8 bolt with a larger shoulder and drill the base and the rod
to fit it tight, that would be the easiest fix??

Quote from: Thumper Buttercup on July 12, 2015, 05:07:25 PM
OK,

We just found the same thing on our front and rear rocker arm supports, is the
loctite 609 good enough fix??  I don't think the 609 is going to hold up with the
head temps we get with a non water cooled head.

Drill out the support for a fitted bushing on the bolts shoulder??

What would in involve to tear it back down if you used the loctite 648??


What about a grade 8 bolt with a larger shoulder and drill the base and the rod
to fit it tight, that would be the easiest fix??

My way wasn't the best way I'm sure. Minimizing any marginal slop will reduce noise up top especially with real aggressive ramps. You will still hear the valve contacting against the seat and theres nothing you can do about that but change out the cam. Knowing that the pushrod is not a 90* to the rocker puts at thrust or pressure on the surface closest to the valve promoting wear. I've had bushings changed out in the rockers and replaced the rocker shafts as well( cheap insurance). The Idea of having a larger shoulder bolt would help but I wouldn't drill on the support plates, the more meat the better off you will be. I did try heat shrink on the shoulders once but couldn't tell if worked or not but the rotating shaft did beat it up because it was torn up when I pulled it out later.  Ron at Hemi still hasn't come out with steel rocker support plates yet to help solve some of the issues. Back burnerd I'm sure.

If one wanted to really set these up right adding a bronze bushing( the right bronze bushing)  into the support would be the way to keep the spec correct and get them correctly aligned.  Drilling the support and putting a small divot in the shaft for a set screw as well.  But you are dealing with items that are just tossed together and they need room to allow for manufacturing tolerance's.

Along with studs in the head to sit the support down on to that are more appropriately sized. The idea that these things can be slid all over is silly then you have the rocker fitment ...  So at the end of the day you are back to re -engineering the entire set up


The shaft thing is nothing uncommon and a little clean up will solve the issue of it binding.

Jessel is coming to mind at this point . Solves all the issues well at least with the valve train. 

Gordon , what size/thread pitch set screws did you use and why did you install them on both ends of the shafts ? Last time i had mine apart almost 1/4 of the bolt diameter was chewed away from the rocker shaft beating on it .

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 13, 2015, 07:07:46 AM
If one wanted to really set these up right adding a bronze bushing( the right bronze bushing)  into the support would be the way to keep the spec correct and get them correctly aligned.  Drilling the support and putting a small divot in the shaft for a set screw as well.  But you are dealing with items that are just tossed together and they need room to allow for manufacturing tolerance's.

Along with studs in the head to sit the support down on to that are more appropriately sized. The idea that these things can be slid all over is silly then you have the rocker fitment ...  So at the end of the day you are back to re -engineering the entire set up


The shaft thing is nothing uncommon and a little clean up will solve the issue of it binding.

Jessel is coming to mind at this point . Solves all the issues well at least with the valve train. 

Steve I thought Jesel had all the answers too until I bought the setup and found they use .760" rollers instead of the .690" that come with most TC lifters. Cams are back out and sent off for a regrind for the larger roller.

What about flipping the rocker arm shaft and cut a new tighter cutout for
the shoulder bolt to sit against??  I know you would have to watch
how tight it is for the bolt going into the head.

I guess the best and easiest way is a setscrew pressing the shaft to the
bolt to take out play after it's torqued in place.

I'm going to reinstall the rocker arm supports onto the heads and tighten
them down with just the shafts in place and check how loose the play is
then.

Quote from: No Cents on July 12, 2015, 04:47:03 PM
It's used to help correct the geometry of the rocker arm tip to the valve stem.
The goal of shimming under the rocker arm support is to get the rocker arm tip to ride on top of the valve stem as close to being centered as possible...leaving the smallest foot print across the stem.

Ray

Ray, A question/answer please...

Didn't your roller-rockers need the Harden spacer (s) to make them fit... Or did you just go without the roller-rockers? (memory)

signed....BUBBIE

ADDED:

Could that be My tapping in my 09 King?

It has been there forever.. No Louder but about the same RPM...

THANKS gordonr....

Quote from: 2006FXDCI on July 13, 2015, 07:30:04 AM
Gordon , what size/thread pitch set screws did you use and why did you install them on both ends of the shafts ? Last time i had mine apart almost 1/4 of the bolt diameter was chewed away from the rocker shaft beating on it .

I chose a 10-24. By only installing a set screw on one side it would have acted like a hinge and failed over time.