100% charging below -15F should prevent battery damage?

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Yvesm

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2013
Messages
28
I understand that charging at 100% is bad for the battery under normal conditions. But in the winter at -10F to -40F, should it be preferable to charge at 100% just to raise the battery temperature. I have a 2011 and no winter package. The car will be used and charged every day. For a 15 miles per day only. I have not experiences the winter yet. I would like to keep the bat temp higher than the outside but would not want to deteriorate the battery
Thanks for your thoughts,Yves.
 
Welcome! While it's imporant to follow good battery care practices, I wouldn't worry about charging the battery to full in this scenario. Heat appears to be the biggest enemy of the battery pack, but it looks like you took care of that problem! My recommendation would be to charge to 80% and have a preconditioning timer set, which will preheat the car before you leave. The battery will accept additional charge during preconditioning. If you select the time interval properly, you will end up with a car that's nice and warm, and a battery which is not quite full for added peace of mind.
newownermnl
 
Yvesm said:
... But in the winter at -10F to -40F, should it be preferable to charge at 100% just to raise the battery temperature. I have a 2011 and no winter package. ...
Although Nissan has not been very clear about this, an early 2011 LEAF that does not have the winter package with the battery heater is basically not usable if the ambient temperature is going to be much lower than -20F. Unless you have a means to keep the battery warmer than this, such as keeping it in a garage to avoid extended exposure to the <-20F conditions.
The battery does have a lot of thermal mass, so it isn't going to hit ambient quickly, but after multiple hours exposure it will begin to approach ambient.
I don't think using charging is a viable means to keep the battery temperature up to a workable level. There just isn't that much battery heating from L2 charging. Now DCQC might be another story.
I'm not aware of any good technical details on what the battery capacity does below -20F, but I think it basically falls off a cliff. Not hardly any capacity.
Also unclear whether that low a temperature damages the battery, or whether use of the battery at that very low temperature damages the battery.
 
Ricardo, the first LEAF owner in Canada, recorded this range chart last year. It presumably already reflects heater and A/C use. The heating pads in the 2011 winter package won't operate until the battery temperature reaches -4 F (-20 C) and the LEAF is not plugged on. The warmer then heats the pack back up to 14 F (-10 C) and turns off. That said, Tim has a point, and the LEAF will most likely have a minimum operating temperature. I don't recall what it is as of this writing.


XVT6uV
 
TimLee said:
I'm not aware of any good technical details on what the battery capacity does below -20F, but I think it basically falls off a cliff. Not hardly any capacity. Also unclear whether that low a temperature damages the battery, or whether use of the battery at that very low temperature damages the battery.
I have no experience at these temperatures, but I note that the 2011 Owner's Manual says:
Power Limitation Mode
This mode protects the health and operation of the vehicle’s Li-ion battery. This mode operates in certain extreme conditions (heat, cold, low state of charge).
I would infer from inclusion of "cold" there that if the battery is very cold the car would power up in Turtle mode, if it powers up at all, but that the LBC would at least attempt to protect the battery from damage. On the other hand, if the electrolyte were to freeze, mightn't that be likely to burst the cells even without powering up?

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
On the other hand, if the electrolyte were to freeze, mightn't that be likely to burst the cells even without powering up?
Good point, Ray, and thanks for the info from the manual. One thing that occurred to me is that satellites and space probes have successfully used lithium-ion batteries in extreme conditions and low temperatures. So it must be possible to design cells for such operating conditions. I note that FleetCarma tested LEAFs at -25 C (-13 F) in Canada. Unless the OP lived in Yellowknife, that ought to be enough. I recall seeing -29 C in Edmonton, but that was a rare occurrence.


17BkRdC
 
FWIW, one of jkirkebo's many cold weather LEAF reports (11-27-12):
jkirkebo said:
Well, here's one report from Norway ;)

My Leaf is now a little over 1 year old, 12000 miles and no sign of any degradation. Gids after a full charge is usually 279 and always 231 at 80%.

Last winter I was down to a single temperature bar more than once. I once tried charging from 80% to 100% when at one temp. bar and that didn't work out well. The SOC-meter showed only ~500 watts going into the pack so charge rate was way down. I aborted the charging and started driving instead, which quickly brought the pack up to 3-4 bars. No problems with charging thereafter.

So I do not think the cold is a problem for pack longevity, but it might impact charging if it gets cold enough. My advice is then to charge to 80% right after driving, when the pack is warmer. Do not let the car sit in the cold for long (a day or more) with a depleted battery as charging it up later might take forever.
Others have said that the battery will freeze around -30ºC; don't know if that's true. But performance will be reduced in the -20ºC range, as noted above, especially without the battery heater.

In my experience charging does warm up the battery. At Level 2 (3.3 kW) I generally see 1-2ºC increase in an hour or so at mild ambient temperatures (10ºC to 20ºC). I haven't had a chance to quantify it at low ambient temperatures yet.
 
I would be concerned anytime the ambient got below -20C, even more so if the Leaf was fully exposed to the elements (e.g., not inside an insulated garage). Make sure those batteries don't freeze, and yes, all batteries do not like being charged when very cold. I believe there is an irreversible metal plating reaction (at least with Ni metal hydride). Add a low temp heating pad or at least a couple of 100 W light bulbs under the car in the garage. Also, get one of the CAN measuring devices that people talk about on MNL, especially the one that measures cell temperatures!
 
Reddy said:
all batteries do not like being charged when very cold. I believe there is an irreversible metal plating reaction (at least with Ni metal hydride).
Yes, I believe that's true of lithium-ion cells as well. Note that the often-quoted battery warmer only operates in a very narrow set of conditions. It won't turn on if the car is plugged in, for example. It was designed to address one use case: longer-term parking in open areas at extreme low temperatures. Like when Jens goes to his cabin in Norway and parks there overnight. It's not a battery warmer in the classic sense of the word.
 
surfingslovak said:
Yes, I believe that's true of lithium-ion cells as well. Note that the often-quoted battery warmer only operates in a very narrow set of conditions. It won't turn on if the car is plugged in, for example. It was designed to address one use case: longer-term parking in open areas at extreme low temperatures. Like when Jens goes to his cabin in Norway and parks there overnight. It's not a battery warmer in the classic sense of the word.
You've mentioned this a couple of times but it isn't true. The battery warmer works best when the car is plugged-in but it will work when the car is unplugged, down to about 30% SOC. It can also work while the car is being driven. The battery warmer is only 300 Watts, and runs intermittently, so it doesn't draw a lot of energy.
LI-ION BATTERY HEATER

CAUTION
The Li-ion battery heater does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 30% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -4ºF (-20ºC) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger.

The Li-ion battery heater helps to prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing and helps to prevent significant reductions in the Li-ion battery output when the temperature is cold. The Li-ion battery heater automatically turns on when the Li-ion battery temperature is approximately -4ºF (-20ºC) or colder. The Li-ion battery heater automatically turns off when the Li-ion battery temperture is approximately 14ºF (-10ºC) or higher.

The Li-ion battery heater uses electrical power from an external source when a charger is connected to the vehicle. The Li-ion battery heater uses electrical power from the Li-ion battery when the charger is not connected to the vehicle.

NOTE:

• Connect the charger to the vehicle and place the power switch in the OFF position when parking the vehicle if temperatures may go below -4ºF (-20ºC). This provides external power to the Li-ion battery heater when it operates and does not discharge the Li-ion battery.

• The charging status indicator lights illuminate in a specific pattern when the Li-ion battery heater operates. The charging status indicator lights use the same pattern to indicate 12-volt battery charging, Climate Ctrl. Timer operation or Remote Climate Control operation. The charging status indicator lights do not change if the Li-ion battery heater operates at the same time as the above features. See “Charging status indicator lights” in the “CH. Charging” section.

• The Li-ion battery heater uses Li-ion battery power to operate, even if the vehicle is connected to a charger when:
— the vehicle’s power switch is in the ON position.
— there is no electrical power being supplied to the charging equipment.

• When the Li-ion battery heater is already in operation using an external power source, it will continue to use the external power even if the power switch is placed in the ON position.

• Vehicle driving range is reduced if the Li-ion battery heater operates (Li-ion battery temperature approximately -4ºF (-20ºC) or colder) while driving the vehicle. You may need to charge the Li-ion battery sooner than in warmer temperatures.

• The Li-ion battery requires more time to charge when the Li-ion battery heater operates.

• The predicted charging time displayed on the meter and navigation system increases when the Li-ion battery heater operates.

• Climate control performance is reduced when using the Climate Ctrl. Timer or Remote Climate Control while the Li-ion battery heater operates. The Li-ion battery may not charge to the expected level using the charging timer when a [Start Time] and [End Time] are set while the Li-ion battery heater operates.

• Set only the charging timer [End Time] when charging in cold weather. The vehicle automatically determines when to start charging to fully charge the Li-ion battery, even if the Li-ion battery heater operates. Charging ends before the set end timeif the Li-ion battery is fully charged.
 
dgpcolorado said:
LI-ION BATTERY HEATER

CAUTION
The Li-ion battery heater does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 30% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -4ºF (-20ºC) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger.

Oh excellent, where is this quote from?
 
surfingslovak said:
dgpcolorado said:
LI-ION BATTERY HEATER

CAUTION
The Li-ion battery heater does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 30% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -4ºF (-20ºC) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger.

Oh excellent, where is this quote from?

I think it is from manual for a LEAF that has the cold weather package.
I have to admit I have not searched the manual for my 2011 LEAF without the cold weather package, to see what if anything it says about LEAF operation in very cold conditions.
My guess is that if battery temperature goes much lower than -15F or -20F, the LEAF won't do much.
But the reported Canadian experience of just driving the LEAF causing the battery to warm up is encouraging.
But still unclear what happens to a LEAF battery that experiences an extended exposure to -20F or lower, without the 300 W cold weather package battery heating? :eek: :eek:

edit: Units corrected.
 
TimLee said:
But still unclear what happens to a LEAF battery that experiences an extended exposure to -20F or lower, without the 300 kW cold weather package battery heating? :eek: :eek:

( Gasp! ) 300 kW??? As in nearly four times the 80KW maximum motor drive power?
 
Levenkay said:
TimLee said:
But still unclear what happens to a LEAF battery that experiences an extended exposure to -20F or lower, without the 300 kW cold weather package battery heating? :eek: :eek:

( Gasp! ) 300 kW??? As in nearly four times the 80KW maximum motor drive power?
It's 300 Watts, I believe: 6 x 50 Watt. It's like three 100 W lightbulbs.
 
Thanks to all. I will check how I could add a heating pad under the car. It would be 120 volt and used in extreme cases. I do not have a garage but a standard outlet is next to the evse at home.
 
Yvesm said:
Thanks to all. I will check how I could add a heating pad under the car. It would be 120 volt and used in extreme cases. I do not have a garage but a standard outlet is next to the evse at home.

Here are customizable heating pads to any size, voltage, temperature, etc. I think I would stay below 40C, and maybe even 30C:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/619081731/Customize_110v_115v_120v_220v_230v.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Here's the bottom of the battery:

IMG_0668.jpg



IMG_0650.jpg
 
Wow, thanks. With the images and link, the brainstorming get a boost in the right direction !
 
I have installed 6 x 50 watts pads and 1 thermostatic switch tc1. I have no picture because the time and difficulties working at about 32 degrees was not easy. I finished and the sun was down , I was frozen.

The pads: http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24050-Watt-Universal-Heater/dp/B000I8YPQ4
And the switch : http://www.amazon.com/Farm-Innovators-TC-1-Thermostatically-Controlled/dp/B001ADUKRO

The pads really heat up not installed but do not get really hot once installed. The heat was going up to the sheet metal of the battery casing.

I added fiberglass insulation on the pads holding with aluminum tape to prevent heat transfer to the plastic covers

I will use the picture above to show where they where installed. For the moment, the thermal switch is set in front of the battery where the power output connector is
 
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